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Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, November five, twenty twenty five. Interest rates could

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Speaker 1: go up in December. That's the alarming warning from economists

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Speaker 1: after the Reserve Bank held the cash rate at three

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Speaker 1: point six percent on Tuesday. The RBA Board says inflation

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Speaker 1: is still stubbornly high thanks to accelerating consumer spending and

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Speaker 1: low unemployment. The orcust Military Pact is going great guns,

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Speaker 1: with US designed combat systems to be used on Australian

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Speaker 1: built nuclear submarines. It follows a review by US defense

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Speaker 1: big wigs who said they wanted to be sure the

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Speaker 1: partnership is fit for purpose by President Donald Trump has

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Speaker 1: since declared its full steam ahead. That exclusive is live

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Speaker 1: right now at the Australian dot com dou It's nearly

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Speaker 1: fifty years since the dismissal of the Whitlam government, a

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Speaker 1: story that shaped the journalism and the life of our

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Speaker 1: own editor at large, Paul Kelly. Back then, Paul was

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Speaker 1: a twenty eight year old political correspondent, literally sprinting through

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Speaker 1: Parliament to break the news. I interviewed Paul for a

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Speaker 1: documentary We're Publishing Today, and in this episode of The

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Speaker 1: Front he tells us his story of Australian politics' most

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Speaker 1: dramatic day.

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Speaker 2: I took five minutes out about seven pm before I

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Speaker 2: started to write, thinking to myself, stay calm, be professional,

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Speaker 2: don't write some emotional piece of trash. Write something for

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Speaker 2: the ages.

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Speaker 1: This is Paul Kelly, the Australian's Editor at Large. He's

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Speaker 1: seventy eight years old and the duien of Atralian political journalists.

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Speaker 1: Politicians from every side sweat on what Paul will write

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Speaker 1: about them in his pieces for The Australian Today. Paul's

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Speaker 1: telling a story we all think we know, but he

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Speaker 1: has a unique and pretty dramatic take. It's the November eleventh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five sacking of the Whitlam government. Paul was

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Speaker 1: just twenty eight and the dismissal had huge consequences for

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Speaker 1: him as well as for the country. We've turned Paul's

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Speaker 1: account of the dismissal into a documentary that's live now

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Speaker 1: on the Australian dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: The future of the country was very much on the line.

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Speaker 2: That's how we saw it, That's how I saw it.

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Speaker 3: Well, may we say God saved la queend cause nothing

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Speaker 3: well say with the Governor General.

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Speaker 1: The doco is a gripping first hand account of how

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Speaker 1: a Labor Prime Minister, Goff Whitlam was thrown out of

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Speaker 1: office by the Governor General Whitlam had personally chosen. It

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Speaker 1: includes the unforgettable scenes of Whitlam standing on top of

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Speaker 1: the steps of Parliament House making that famous speech, and

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Speaker 1: Opposition leader Malcolm Fraser, who'd just been handed the Prime ministership,

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Speaker 1: making his way through a baying mob out the front, calling.

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Speaker 2: Out, abusing Fraser. The sense of anger is palpable. He

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Speaker 2: sacked the Prime ministerry. I mean, we'd never we'd never

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Speaker 2: imagine this would happened.

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Speaker 1: I showed Paul the page one story he wrote that

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Speaker 1: day published in The Australian.

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Speaker 2: Well, may we say God save the crew o God.

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Speaker 1: You've told me that you felt that the dismissal of

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Speaker 1: the Whitlam government was an outrage. But I looked back

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Speaker 1: at your coverage from the day on where Wednesday November twelve,

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Speaker 1: your report on page one of The Australian is very straight.

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Speaker 1: Why did you write it so straight?

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Speaker 2: One of the things about being a political journalist is

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Speaker 2: that you think through how are you going to operate?

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Speaker 2: What are the principles you're going to follow as a journalist?

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Speaker 2: And I guess I decided very early on that I

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Speaker 2: was going to be as much as I could in

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Speaker 2: terms of news coverage, a professional, impartial journalist. Did I

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Speaker 2: have firm views about what was going on in politics?

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Speaker 2: You bet I did. And so then in my columns,

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Speaker 2: in my contributions to the op ed page, in my commetary,

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Speaker 2: I expressed what those views were, I think in a

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Speaker 2: pretty strong and powerful way. Woodlam campaign on a mandate

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Speaker 2: to transform the country. No prime during Australian history has

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Speaker 2: ever prought such an ambitious mandate to the people. He

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Speaker 2: wanted a nation that was more caring, that was greatly

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Speaker 2: committed to social justice, better education, better health, are more

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Speaker 2: independent foreign policy, and he believed the country had become

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Speaker 2: moribund in the final years of the previous Coalition government

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Speaker 2: under Billy McMahon.

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Speaker 1: The introduction of universal health care, the withdrawal of Australian

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Speaker 1: troops from Vietnam, the introduction of no fault divorce just

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Speaker 1: some of the huge changes that the Whitlam government brought about.

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Speaker 1: But beneath the surface, of this government. Things were not

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Speaker 1: going well in an administrative sense, whether they were struggling

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Speaker 1: to actually run the government.

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Speaker 2: There's never been a government like the Whitlam government. We

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Speaker 2: lived at twenty four or seven every day, every week,

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Speaker 2: every month for three years, and the experience covering the

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Speaker 2: Whitlam in one year was the equivalent of three or

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Speaker 2: four years covering a normal government. So that was a

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Speaker 2: really exciting time. But the interesting thing about the Whittland

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Speaker 2: government was that it did a lot of really great

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Speaker 2: things and it did a lot of really bad things,

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Speaker 2: and so you had this extraordinary combination of the great

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Speaker 2: and the all considered being fused together. That made it

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Speaker 2: very exciting for a political correspondent.

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Speaker 3: In the hundreds of divisions which have taken place in

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Speaker 3: the House of Representatives last year and this year, the

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Speaker 3: Labor government has never been defeated.

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Speaker 2: There was an increasing sense of apprehension and reservation across

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Speaker 2: much of the country, and the Liberal and National parties

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Speaker 2: tapped into that sense of apprehension, the sense of reservation,

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Speaker 2: which became in the end a sense of anger. We

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Speaker 2: saw higher inflation and higher unemployment, and the government really

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Speaker 2: struggled to come to groups with that economic challenge. The

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Speaker 2: second extraordinary feature was the kim Laney loan. The Minerals

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Speaker 2: and Energy Minister Rex Connor, with Whitlam's full support, wanted

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Speaker 2: to raise an external loan to finance the resources sector.

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Speaker 2: Instead of doing this through the normal channels in New York,

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Speaker 2: they picked a Pakistani money lender, Tirath kim Lani. I mean,

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Speaker 2: what else would you do? Obviously, and they got Executive

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Speaker 2: Counsel approval to give the loan commission to Tirath kim Lani.

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Speaker 2: To say this was a mistake doesn't even begin to

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Speaker 2: describe what happened. It was an atrocity and it really

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Speaker 2: alarmed the Governor General, Sir John Kerr. This was the

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Speaker 2: start of the alienation between Kerr and Whitlam.

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Speaker 1: Talking to Paul even fifty years later, it's clear these

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Speaker 1: three men all dead now. Goff Whitlam, Malcolm Fraser and

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Speaker 1: John Kerr loom large in his memory.

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Speaker 2: Here's the story. It's the morning of the eleventh of November.

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Speaker 2: Kerr is at Government House. He's got the documents prepared,

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Speaker 2: the documents prepared and the dismissal letter. He is going

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Speaker 2: to liquidate Whitlam's prime Ministership at lunchtime that day, because

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Speaker 2: he believes if he gives the slightest signal to Whitlam

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Speaker 2: that he has reservations about what God is doing, Whitlam

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Speaker 2: will contact the Palace to have Kerr sacked. This is

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Speaker 2: the most extraordinary showdown in Australian political history. Whitlam and

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Speaker 2: Fraser had a meeting at nine a m. There was

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Speaker 2: a feeling in the government lobbies. There was a feeling

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Speaker 2: within the Labor Party, in the Labour Corps. They were

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Speaker 2: on the verge of a great victory. Goth was about

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Speaker 2: to go to Government House to seek a half Senate

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Speaker 2: election for the Governor General. Gough was intimidating the Governor

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Speaker 2: General in public and he was not confiding with the

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Speaker 2: Governor General in private. He didn't understand human nature. He

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Speaker 2: did not understand Sir John Kerr. It was a catastrophic mistake.

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Speaker 2: The mood on the Liberal side under Malcolm Fraser was

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Speaker 2: very different. They were quiet, they were calm. There wasn't

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Speaker 2: much noise, there wasn't much cheering. When the coalition parties

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Speaker 2: met that morning, Fraser said to them we're not going

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Speaker 2: to discuss the crisis. And when they broke When that

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Speaker 2: meeting broke and the journalists found that there'd been no

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Speaker 2: discussion of the crisis during the Opposition Party meeting. Journalists

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Speaker 2: drew the wrong conclusion and felt Fraser was on the offensive.

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Speaker 2: Fraser was in trouble. Well, the media often gets it wrong,

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Speaker 2: and the media got that one wrong big time.

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Speaker 1: Paul's written five books on the dismissal directly and because

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Speaker 1: it was a seismic event in Australian politics. The story

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Speaker 1: has shaped many of the millions of words he's written

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Speaker 1: on everything else in the intervening fifty years.

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Speaker 2: There is a form of conspiracy about the eleventh of November.

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Speaker 2: Let's get clear what it is and what it isn't.

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Speaker 2: The CIA was not involved, The Queen and Buckingham Palace

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Speaker 2: were not involved. The dismissal was Kerr's own work. It

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Speaker 2: was his project, it was his planning, it was his conspiracy.

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Speaker 2: But at nine point fifty five am that morning, the

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Speaker 2: Governor General rang Malcolm Fraser as Opposition leader and put

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Speaker 2: a six areas of questions to him, and those questions were,

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Speaker 2: can you tell me, mister Fraser, if you were to

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Speaker 2: be commissioned as Prime Minister, would you advise a general election.

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Speaker 2: Would you advise a double dissolution? Would you obtain supply

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Speaker 2: as soon as possible? Malcolm Fraser, surprise surprise, answered yes

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Speaker 2: to each question. Kerr tipped off Fraser the morning of

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Speaker 2: the dismissal. I've called it the tip off. That's what

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Speaker 2: it was. Kerr was the one who orchestrated the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Kerr believed in the reserve POWs. It was fundamental to

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Speaker 2: his viewers as a lawyer. It was fundamental to his

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Speaker 2: whole intellectual approach. Whitlam didn't know this.

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Speaker 1: The reserve powers are a much debated point of constitutional

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Speaker 1: law in Australia. Basically, it's the idea that the Governor General,

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Speaker 1: as the local representative of our head of state, the

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Speaker 1: monarch at the moment, King Charles the Third, has the

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Speaker 1: power to take action in the event of a crisis.

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Speaker 1: In this case, the government couldn't get its budget through

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Speaker 1: the Senate. Kerr firmly believed that if the government couldn't

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Speaker 1: effectively govern, it was his job to dismiss the government

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Speaker 1: and call a new election.

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Speaker 2: And so when Whitlam asked Kerr to become Governor General,

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Speaker 2: he had no idea that he was inviting the man

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Speaker 2: who he wanted to become Governor General. That this man,

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Speaker 2: this man had a passionate view of the Reserve powers.

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Speaker 2: Not only that, Sir John Kerr was probably the worst

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Speaker 2: appointment of anyone in Australia, that Whitlam could have made

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Speaker 2: Governor General. And Whitlam didn't realize he did no due

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Speaker 2: diligence on his appointment of Kerr as Governor General extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: I think Sir John Kerr was an unworthy Governor General

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Speaker 2: and I think he compromised and left a stain on

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Speaker 2: the office. Kerr was obsessed with this idea that Whitlam

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Speaker 2: was prepared to sack him, and that's why he concealed

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Speaker 2: his hand from the Prime Minister. So Kur dismissed Whitlam

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Speaker 2: in a constitutional ambush.

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Speaker 1: Coming up the day The Australian dismissed Paul Kelly and

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Speaker 1: how he came back stronger than ever. The Australian was

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Speaker 1: taking a strong editorial line about the constitutional crisis. The

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Speaker 1: Australian was in fact, in its editorials encouraging Sir John

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Speaker 1: Kerr to end this situation and essentially dismissed the Whitlam government,

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Speaker 1: including on the morning of the actual dismissal. You were young,

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Speaker 1: you were twenty eight, but you were very senior at

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Speaker 1: the paper. You were the most senior person in the

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Speaker 1: Federal Parliamentary Press Gallery Bureau. Did you have moments of

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Speaker 1: concern about the juxtaposition between your desire to do straight reporting,

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Speaker 1: your personal view that the dismissal would be wrong, and

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Speaker 1: the Australian's very strong position on it.

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Speaker 2: The Australian did have a strong position in late nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy five, and that position was that the Whitlam government

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Speaker 2: was a danger to the country, that the economic policy

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Speaker 2: it was following was too great a problem for the country.

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Speaker 2: And the Australian supported Malcolm Fraser when he blocked the budget,

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Speaker 2: and then the Australian supported Sir John Kerr when he

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Speaker 2: sacked the Whitlam government. I'd been very critical of the

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Speaker 2: Whitlam government in my coverage, but I was very critical

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Speaker 2: of the way the Whitlam government was liquidated. What happened

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Speaker 2: at the end was and I understood this. The editor

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Speaker 2: of the paper said to me that my views on

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Speaker 2: Kerr's dismissal of Whitlam and my views on Fraser's blocking

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Speaker 2: the budget was such that it wasn't tenable for me

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Speaker 2: to remain as political correspondent of the paper. The differences

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Speaker 2: between myself and the paper were too great. I understood that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I later, many many years later, became editor

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Speaker 2: in chief of The Australian, and so I've had the

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Speaker 2: experience of sitting in the editor's chair and sitting in

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Speaker 2: the political correspondence chair. So I understood all that. What

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Speaker 2: happened was that I moved on. I didn't remain as

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Speaker 2: political correspondent of the paper, and the following year I

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Speaker 2: left the paper.

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Speaker 1: There must have been a small sense of justice when

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Speaker 1: you came back and ultimately became editor in chief.

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Speaker 2: It was a long time later, a long time later,

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Speaker 2: Ken Cowley, the chief executive, and Rupert Murdoch, over dinner

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Speaker 2: one night in Sydney offered me the position of editor

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Speaker 2: in chief of the paper, which was an enormous privilege.

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Speaker 1: Looking back at your twenty eight year old self, what

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Speaker 1: would you say to him now about his feelings about

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Speaker 1: all of that?

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Speaker 2: You've got me with that, you've got to stop. It

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Speaker 2: was just, you know, that's the only question today I

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Speaker 2: can't answer because it's about what I think of me.

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Speaker 1: Did you have a sense that you've been wronged at

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Speaker 1: the time, and then when you became editor in chief

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Speaker 1: and thinking about some of the twenty eight year olds

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Speaker 1: who are working for you, did you have a different

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Speaker 1: opinion of your conduct?

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Speaker 2: Back then, I didn't think i'd been wrong I regarded

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Speaker 2: the fact that I'd been political correspondent to the paper

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Speaker 2: and had the chance to cover this extraordinary government and

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Speaker 2: get to know Whitlom and all these ministers and write

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Speaker 2: about them and assess them and support them and criticize them.

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Speaker 2: I regarded this It's a phenomenal privilege. I always had

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Speaker 2: this sense of the responsibility vested in my job, what

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Speaker 2: a privilege it was, and how I had to do

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Speaker 2: everything I could, in the most professional sense possible to

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Speaker 2: discharge the responsibilities of the job. So no, when the paper,

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Speaker 2: when the editor indicated to me, lookmate, we can't wear

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Speaker 2: you anymore, I accepted that. I didn't feel that i'd

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Speaker 2: been wronged at all.

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Speaker 1: You were twenty eight, You were very senior, but you

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Speaker 1: were inexperienced, I suppose as a journalist compared to your

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Speaker 1: level of experience. Now do you look back at yourself

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Speaker 1: as a kind of brash young thing who was maybe

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Speaker 1: a bit too bold with his opinions or.

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Speaker 2: Not look to be perfectly frank. In those days, you

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Speaker 2: had to be a little bit aggressive, a little bit

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Speaker 2: brash and a little bit bold if you were working

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Speaker 2: in a political correspondence job in the press gallery, and

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Speaker 2: if you did you have some of those qualities, you

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Speaker 2: were crushed. You wouldn't survive twenty four hours. Let me

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Speaker 2: tell you, the pressure every day was simply enormous. This

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Speaker 2: was a question of survival. It was that elemental.

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Speaker 1: You got to have a life in journalism up close

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Speaker 1: to the most exciting things happening in Australia. What's journalism

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Speaker 1: given you?

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Speaker 2: Oh, journalism has given me so much. I mean, I've

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Speaker 2: had the most fortunate and lucky career because journalism, for me,

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Speaker 2: has been a project of discovery, excitement, perpetual learning. The

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Speaker 2: point about being a journalist is that every day is unique,

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Speaker 2: every day is different. Every day you learn something new,

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Speaker 2: every day you have a new experience. It's an absolute

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Speaker 2: privilege to be a journalist, and a special privilege to

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Speaker 2: be a political journalist.

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Speaker 1: Paul Kelly is The Australian's Editor at Large. He's not

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Speaker 1: going anywhere, and his journalism rings as clear and true

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Speaker 1: as ever. You can check out our documentary and Paul's

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Speaker 1: column from today It's a Doozy right now at the

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Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot au