1
00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,120
Speaker 1: I've got a team. Welcome to another installment of your project.

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,160
Speaker 1: Calespo and I are flying. I was going to say solo,

3
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,920
Speaker 1: but it's more of a duo. There's no trio tiff

4
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: where sands tiff. She's out to dinner on some date

5
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: or something, some kind of sordid affair. But me and Glass.

6
00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,040
Speaker 1: But I've been here, just holding the bloody baby, just

7
00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 1: doing it. Yeah, I made How are you?

8
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah good? How are you good?

9
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,760
Speaker 1: Before we jump into tonight? Are you busy? Like? Is

10
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,559
Speaker 1: it is work? I don't know that you ever. I

11
00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 1: don't really ever close down. I don't really have a

12
00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,959
Speaker 1: quiet period. Maybe a little bit over Christmas. But does

13
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 1: it get busier for you? Or is it somewhat the

14
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:41,879
Speaker 1: same through the year.

15
00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,040
Speaker 3: It's pretty much the same all the time. What makes

16
00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,720
Speaker 3: me well? I decide what makes me busy? I guess,

17
00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 3: And so I'm and I guess I'm easily bored. So

18
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:57,760
Speaker 3: you know, if I get a ten minutes where I've

19
00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 3: got nothing on, I think, oh my god, I've got

20
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 3: nothing to do on board as board as anything. So

21
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,760
Speaker 3: I tend to get stuff to do. So I'm always

22
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,320
Speaker 3: at about that level of business.

23
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,560
Speaker 1: How would you I mean, if you met somebody that

24
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 1: didn't know you, like, this is one of the things.

25
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,800
Speaker 1: Because I do a film. I'm not very good at anything,

26
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,160
Speaker 1: but I do do a lot of things. So you're

27
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,080
Speaker 1: an author, you're a researcher, you're a lawyer, you're a like,

28
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 1: you're an entrepreneur. I guess you're an.

29
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 2: Oh sort of entrepreneur over encountered.

30
00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. Yeah, But you're also a philanthropist because

31
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: you do do in that. You know, you do do

32
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,039
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff for people that you genuinely just

33
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 1: want to help. You're an educator. You wouldn't call yourself that,

34
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 1: but you're very much an educator. What where where does

35
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 1: that like? What do you see yourself first and foremost

36
00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,639
Speaker 1: as a lawyer because that's your background and that's your

37
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,840
Speaker 1: chosen career, or how do you see yourself?

38
00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,240
Speaker 3: It's what I describe myself as to people who I

39
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,160
Speaker 3: don't have time to say any more than that.

40
00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:05,880
Speaker 2: Most people know what a lawyer is.

41
00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,000
Speaker 3: And by the way, describing yourself as a lawyer when

42
00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,080
Speaker 3: you go through customs is an excellent way to make

43
00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,600
Speaker 3: sure you don't get searched. Right, describing yourself as a

44
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,080
Speaker 3: salesman or something like that, right, right, usually results in

45
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:21,840
Speaker 3: a strip search.

46
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,480
Speaker 1: So that's hilarious.

47
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,400
Speaker 3: I hope the people from customs aren't listening because now

48
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,640
Speaker 3: I'm probably going to get searched every time. But anyway,

49
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,720
Speaker 3: that's I've found over many years putting lawyer on the form.

50
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,880
Speaker 3: I think it protects you from searching.

51
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,880
Speaker 1: And is that because they think potentially they stand a

52
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 1: greater chance of litigation?

53
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 3: No, probably you're just going to be painful. Lawyers tend

54
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 3: to be painful people. Sorry to all the lawyers out there.

55
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,639
Speaker 1: Shout out, shout out to the fellow. So clearly you're

56
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 1: the super popular in your face, right, they tend they

57
00:02:58,480 --> 00:02:58,840
Speaker 1: tend to.

58
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,639
Speaker 2: Be detail oriented. Let's put it that way.

59
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,720
Speaker 1: You'll be getting zero Christmas cards every year?

60
00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,120
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, So well what's.

61
00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 1: The stuff and we'll get to the topic of hand. Well,

62
00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 1: what's the stuff that gives you? I don't know if

63
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,920
Speaker 1: this is the right question, but it's like, if you

64
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,680
Speaker 1: ask me this, I'd have an answer for it. But

65
00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 1: what gives you the most joy or the most fulfillment?

66
00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,320
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe it's not about fulfillment but or the most purpose,

67
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,080
Speaker 1: Like is it the philanthropic stuff?

68
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,400
Speaker 3: No, not really, it's I mean, that's good, and I

69
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 3: like spending my time doing that. But the thing that

70
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 3: I find engages me the most is discovering new things,

71
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 3: new connections, and being able to follow a thought down

72
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,600
Speaker 3: a rabbit hole of evidence gathering and testing whether it

73
00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 3: holds up or doesn't hold up. A lot of time

74
00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,520
Speaker 3: it doesn't, but sometimes it does and your feel that

75
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,480
Speaker 3: you've discovered a new connection that either no one else is.

76
00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,000
Speaker 2: Aware of or very few people are aware of.

77
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:12,720
Speaker 3: And sometimes that connection matters a lot to the way

78
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,839
Speaker 3: most of us live. And finding those things, I find

79
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,279
Speaker 3: really is the thing that drives me.

80
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 1: And in a time where evidence and bullshit are next

81
00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,320
Speaker 1: door neighbors, how do you do? You know what I'm saying,

82
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,760
Speaker 1: like they're virtual next door neighbors, because people all the time,

83
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,920
Speaker 1: people are saying to me, this is science, that science.

84
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, it isn't, but that's okay. How do you

85
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 1: do how do you find evidence? Like like does everything

86
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,760
Speaker 1: need to come back to high level research and studies

87
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,080
Speaker 1: or is there another metric?

88
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,960
Speaker 3: Well, I don't have any relevant qualifications In ninety percent

89
00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,320
Speaker 3: of the ninety nine percent of the stuff I write about,

90
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 3: I you know, I don't have a medical qualification. I

91
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,680
Speaker 3: don't have a dietetics qualification, health and pe psychology.

92
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:10,080
Speaker 2: None of them.

93
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,479
Speaker 3: I have no qualifications in any of these areas. I

94
00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,360
Speaker 3: have qualifications in commerce and law.

95
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:16,960
Speaker 2: And that's it.

96
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,520
Speaker 3: So and I never write about those things because do.

97
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 1: You want to sell books? You want to sell books.

98
00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,479
Speaker 3: Well, and also I don't you know, they're not particularly

99
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,880
Speaker 3: interesting areas for new research. And also I want to

100
00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,920
Speaker 3: be able to bring the third party view to whatever

101
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,159
Speaker 3: I write about. I want to not care about the answer.

102
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,120
Speaker 1: So that's so good. And this is what people sorry

103
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,839
Speaker 1: to understand. Yeah, this is what people don't understand. And

104
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,720
Speaker 1: I don't mean through research or science or scientists under

105
00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,160
Speaker 1: the bus, but people need to understand that most people

106
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,039
Speaker 1: that are doing scientific research have a vested interest in

107
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 1: the outcome. And that's not to say that that any

108
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,680
Speaker 1: particular science is good or bad, but it's to say that,

109
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,880
Speaker 1: you know, all sciences created by humans are conducted by humans,

110
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,120
Speaker 1: interpreted by humans, and then disseminated the way they want

111
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,680
Speaker 1: to disseminate it to the world by humans. So it's

112
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:28,480
Speaker 1: not this flawless fucking thing that people all people people

113
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,800
Speaker 1: just think they need to say it's science and then

114
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:37,560
Speaker 1: viberty bobbedy boot it's all absolute, unequivocal truth.

115
00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,680
Speaker 3: Well yeah, yeah, And I mean there's that famous saying.

116
00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,480
Speaker 3: I can't remember who said it. You're probably able to

117
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,080
Speaker 3: look it up, or if Tiff was here, she'd probably

118
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 3: already know the You know, it's very hard to convince

119
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,479
Speaker 3: a man of something when his salary depends on him

120
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:58,320
Speaker 3: believing the opposite. And that's the difficulty with science. Even

121
00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,880
Speaker 3: though you know not to suggest you will do things

122
00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,920
Speaker 3: intentionally corrupt, but as you say, there's an inherent bias.

123
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,279
Speaker 3: If your salary depends on you finding something and you

124
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,320
Speaker 3: don't find it then or you find the opposite even worse,

125
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,640
Speaker 3: the chances of it being published or brought to anyone's

126
00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,600
Speaker 3: attention dropped fairly dramatically. And I think what I bring

127
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 3: to all of the things that I write about is

128
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:29,680
Speaker 3: I don't care about the result. I'm interested in what

129
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,080
Speaker 3: the science says about the results, and I'm interested in

130
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 3: it being tested. And every time I've ever spoken publicly

131
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 3: on radio or podcasts or anything, I've generally always said,

132
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 3: I'm saying this is what I think the science says.

133
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,880
Speaker 3: If you can produce some science that proves what I'm

134
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 3: saying is wrong, then I'm open to it because you know, I.

135
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,480
Speaker 1: Mean, you don't have an emotional attachment to an outcome, right,

136
00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,200
Speaker 1: then that's.

137
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 3: A financial or importantly a financial one.

138
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. That's true. By the way, that person

139
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 1: was Upton Sinclair.

140
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:05,520
Speaker 2: There you go, and the.

141
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,120
Speaker 1: Quote was it's difficult, which you nailed it. It's difficult

142
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 1: to get a man to understand. We could replace that

143
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,000
Speaker 1: with person a person who understands something when their salary

144
00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:19,360
Speaker 1: depends on not understanding it. And then chat GPT's commentary

145
00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,200
Speaker 1: is it's a sharp insight into cognitive bias and self interest.

146
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, yep, that's exactly what it is.

147
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 2: That's right.

148
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I think that's what I bring to

149
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 3: the equation is I view myself as an advocate for

150
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,440
Speaker 3: people who buy my books in a way that I'm

151
00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,760
Speaker 3: their agent. I'm not the agent of the people who

152
00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 3: want to sell them things.

153
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:44,440
Speaker 2: You know.

154
00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 3: So, and if the evidence tells me that what I'm

155
00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,320
Speaker 3: doing is wrong or what I have said is wrong,

156
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,439
Speaker 3: then I'll be the first to admit it. It hasn't

157
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,520
Speaker 3: happened yet, by the way, In the sense. I'm not

158
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,000
Speaker 3: suggesting I can never be wrong, but I have thrown

159
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,280
Speaker 3: out that challenge now for the very you know.

160
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,479
Speaker 2: I was first started.

161
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 3: Appearing on radio and relation to Sweet Poison in about

162
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, and that challenge has been part

163
00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,640
Speaker 3: of just about every thing I've ever done, and not

164
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:17,920
Speaker 3: once has anyone ever been able to prove that something

165
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,800
Speaker 3: I've said about the science is wrong.

166
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 1: M And what's that seventeen years ago? Yeah, but I

167
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,560
Speaker 1: think what is what is a parent? And I mean

168
00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,559
Speaker 1: this to be the fucking David Gillespie fan club show,

169
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 1: But somebody was asked, by the way, you're the person

170
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,920
Speaker 1: I get most asked about, probably because you're on a

171
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 1: fair bit, but the person, Yeah, what's what's gillspo like?

172
00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,080
Speaker 1: And people call you Gilespo? Right, It's funny this is

173
00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,320
Speaker 1: a person who calls me that.

174
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:48,480
Speaker 2: So yeah.

175
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, So if somebody ever meets you, you know, and

176
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 1: they go go Lesbo.

177
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 2: Then I know where they came from.

178
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're a devote. That's a very Australian thing. Just

179
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,760
Speaker 1: back the whack ando on the end of a boring name.

180
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 1: It's like Craigo. I get called Craigo by friends as well. Right,

181
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,360
Speaker 1: So just put an EE on it or a Y

182
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,080
Speaker 1: on it. Cregy crego's better than harp. Oh, it's way

183
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,199
Speaker 1: better than that. But I think the thing that's evident

184
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,960
Speaker 1: with you is you don't give a fuck about money. Like,

185
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,480
Speaker 1: I get no sense that you're writing books to make money,

186
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 1: because I think you could. I think you could do

187
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,200
Speaker 1: do it a lot easier, Like if your focus was

188
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,079
Speaker 1: building wealth, I don't think you'd be writing all the

189
00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,720
Speaker 1: books you're writing, even though you sell a lot, even

190
00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 1: though you sell plent I'm dollars.

191
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 3: Per hour, dollars per hour invested books are a terrible

192
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,400
Speaker 3: way to make money. Yeah, you know, I come from

193
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,200
Speaker 3: a profession that regularly charges out of a thousand dollars

194
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 3: an hour, and you are not making that or anything

195
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,199
Speaker 3: even in the same postcode as that when you write past.

196
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Do you so like with that kind of

197
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,079
Speaker 1: challenge that you put out with Sweet Poison, which is

198
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 1: seventeen years ago? Now, do you like? I've been surprised

199
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,280
Speaker 1: because you're quite opinionated. It's not the right word because

200
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,319
Speaker 1: they're not really opinions, right, that's science. So opinionated is

201
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 1: actually an inappropriate label for you, I think, But you're

202
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:24,560
Speaker 1: quite well.

203
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,960
Speaker 3: I don't have a right to an opinion because I

204
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,040
Speaker 3: am not an expert in the area, and I think

205
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,000
Speaker 3: opinions are wrong in most areas of science. Nobe, it

206
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,000
Speaker 3: gives the rats what your opinion is.

207
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,760
Speaker 2: What's important is what does the science say.

208
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what I mean is you don't hold back,

209
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,680
Speaker 1: and you're not really because also you're not in the space.

210
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,880
Speaker 1: I actually think for somebody who knows how to research,

211
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,559
Speaker 1: and somebody who can think clearly, and somebody who can

212
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,200
Speaker 1: under read the science, understand the science and share what

213
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 1: you find without having a financial or emotional interest in

214
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,400
Speaker 1: what you find and therefore what you share. I actually

215
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 1: think it's the perfect formula. But as close as we

216
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 1: can get to objectivity, and it's very hard, you know.

217
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,199
Speaker 1: And as you and I have said many times before,

218
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,040
Speaker 1: and I feel like I shouldn't say it too many

219
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,079
Speaker 1: times before I finished my PhD because I could get

220
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,480
Speaker 1: in trouble from the university. But psychology is a pretty

221
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 1: shit science, you know. It's it's just in that I.

222
00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,320
Speaker 2: Think you're flattering at calling it a science.

223
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 3: But anyway, okay, yeah, I rest my case, but it's

224
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, it's so it's so subjective.

225
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,440
Speaker 1: It's like I was talking with somebody yesterday. There's a

226
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,800
Speaker 1: happiness scale, right, and I said, what's fucking hiparious about

227
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:49,800
Speaker 1: the happiness scale?

228
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 2: Is?

229
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,120
Speaker 1: Well, one that depends when you ask me, Right, I

230
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 1: could get seven different lots of You could get seven

231
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 1: different lots of data from me on the one day,

232
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,040
Speaker 1: depending on when you ask me. Two Let's just say

233
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 1: it's a one to seven scale. Right. For me, what

234
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,760
Speaker 1: I understand or experience of happiness is not what somebody

235
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 1: else does, like they might call it contentment or calm

236
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,920
Speaker 1: or joy or like. These are just these slippery constructs

237
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:25,160
Speaker 1: that we then brian subjectively evaluate, and then we take

238
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 1: all of that subjectivity and compare it to you, Like

239
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,800
Speaker 1: the fuck is that scientific?

240
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:39,360
Speaker 3: It's not like all of psychology. It's narrative building. You know,

241
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,440
Speaker 3: if you had it'd be what medicine would be. If

242
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,640
Speaker 3: medicine had no diagnostic tools. If a doctor couldn't X

243
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,840
Speaker 3: ray your leg to determine if it was broken, he

244
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,200
Speaker 3: might make up stories about whether it was broken or

245
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 3: not based on I don't know, feeling it or you know,

246
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:56,559
Speaker 3: the way you look.

247
00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 2: When, or a conversation, conversation with you.

248
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,360
Speaker 3: Does your leg hurt? Yes, it does? How badly?

249
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:03,520
Speaker 2: Does it hurt quite a lot?

250
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 1: How do you feel about your leg?

251
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 2: It could be broken?

252
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,240
Speaker 3: Then that's kind of where we're at with psychology and

253
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:18,240
Speaker 3: and it's being rapidly overtaken by neuroscience, where we're starting

254
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 3: to be able to measure stuff, and you know, it

255
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,440
Speaker 3: will be rendered as relevant as I don't know, attaching

256
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,600
Speaker 3: leeches to people, you know, to cure them of things.

257
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:36,040
Speaker 3: But for the moment, it's it's a fairly well patronized

258
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,040
Speaker 3: profession all right.

259
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,880
Speaker 1: Now, I totally disagree with David everybody. That's just so inappropriate.

260
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,920
Speaker 1: Speaking of research, we've chatted about this a little bit,

261
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 1: but we haven't done a standalone episode, and so I'm

262
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,960
Speaker 1: just going to read. So David put this up on

263
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:54,920
Speaker 1: where where did I get this?

264
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,360
Speaker 3: This substack? To have a substack is where I put

265
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:00,040
Speaker 3: all my articles.

266
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 1: Now, so go there, everyone. It's called feeding Aslies. This

267
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: is the name of the or the title of the article,

268
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 1: Feeding Aslies the Food Industries grip on Healthy Eating Guidelines.

269
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 1: Subtitle is how four decades of healthy eating left us

270
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 1: sicker than ever. Now I'm just going to read one

271
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 1: paragraph because it's it's a nice starting point. First Australian

272
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,040
Speaker 1: Healthy Eating Guidelines were published in nineteen eighty two. It's

273
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 1: now been four decades since our government became worried enough

274
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,240
Speaker 1: about our health to start telling us what to eat.

275
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,760
Speaker 1: There is now little doubt that it has been an

276
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:41,000
Speaker 1: unmitigated disaster. And it's a really good article everybody. There's

277
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 1: some really nice illustrations and graphs and stuff. I love

278
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 1: a good pie chart. There's a pie chart, no pun intended. Yeah,

279
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,920
Speaker 1: so have a look at that. But so we have,

280
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: it hasn't been a raging success, has it.

281
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 2: Well, let's do a little bit of history on this.

282
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 3: So before nineteen eighty two, governments didn't tell us what

283
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,760
Speaker 3: they thought we should eat. They the only thing they

284
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,200
Speaker 3: were really worried about, and this was only sort of

285
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 3: since the end of the Second World War, was getting

286
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 3: enough food and enough of the vital nutrients to stay

287
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,720
Speaker 3: alive and avoid things like rickets and so on. So

288
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,680
Speaker 3: that was the concern of governments from pretty much the

289
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 3: end of the Second World War till the early eighties,

290
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 3: and then in the United States they started becoming obsessed

291
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:37,320
Speaker 3: with the facts that you know, US citizens were starting

292
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 3: to get a little bit chunky, and it hadn't been

293
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,200
Speaker 3: a problem before, but it was starting to be quite

294
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,520
Speaker 3: a big problem. And you know, the obesity and overweight

295
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 3: rate was i think, nudging up around forty percent of

296
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 3: the population, and they were starting to get a.

297
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:52,960
Speaker 2: Bit worried about it.

298
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,640
Speaker 3: By the way, just for context, it's now seventy percent,

299
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 3: so we'd take forty percent every day of the week.

300
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,200
Speaker 3: But in the early eighties, they were starting to worry

301
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,640
Speaker 3: about this increasing plague of overweight and obesity, and you know,

302
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 3: various other chronic diseases were starting to rear their head.

303
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 3: For the first time ever, they were noticing what was

304
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,920
Speaker 3: then called adult onset diabetes and what we now call

305
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,679
Speaker 3: type two diabetes as distinct from juvenile diabetes, which was

306
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,160
Speaker 3: type one, which was the type you're born with. And

307
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,680
Speaker 3: they were starting to see that appear in the population.

308
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,959
Speaker 3: Hadn't even been something that anyone bothered with prior to

309
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,840
Speaker 3: the early eighties, and so they were starting to think, well,

310
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,480
Speaker 3: maybe it's got something to do with what we're eating.

311
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 3: For various historical reasons, they concluded they made the giant

312
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 3: logical leap that fat makes us fat, and then even worse,

313
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 3: than that, they decided it was saturated fat arounimal fat

314
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,080
Speaker 3: that made us have heart disease and type two diabetes

315
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,640
Speaker 3: and various things that, of course all subsequently turned out

316
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,399
Speaker 3: to be totally wrong, but it didn't stop them putting

317
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 3: out healthy eating guidelines in nineteen eighty two in the

318
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 3: United States, which we promptly copied, which is what we do.

319
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,200
Speaker 3: It seems the Australian nutritional establishment is incapable of independent thought,

320
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 3: So if the US puts out a guideline, then we

321
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 3: instantly get out the photocopier and there we go. We've

322
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:29,720
Speaker 3: done the Australian guideline.

323
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 2: So we did it.

324
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 3: Nineteen eighty two put out the first guidelines, and they

325
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,880
Speaker 3: told us a whole bunch of things to do. They

326
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 3: told us to stop eating fat, because obviously fat makes

327
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,200
Speaker 3: us fat. Turns out that fat doesn't make us fat

328
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 3: any more than eating cucumbers makes us green, but that's

329
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 3: what they went with. Seemed logical. Twice as many calories

330
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,320
Speaker 3: in fat as there are in anything else. Therefore fat

331
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,280
Speaker 3: makes us fat. They told us to eat less fat.

332
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 3: So if we look at the stats between when the

333
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,119
Speaker 3: guidelines were released and twenty twelve, which is the most

334
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 3: recent stats we've got. Unfortunately, on fat consumption, we dropped

335
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 3: our fat consumption by a quarter.

336
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 2: So we did it.

337
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,640
Speaker 3: They said less fat. We did, and anyone who.

338
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,840
Speaker 2: Lived through that phase knows that's the case. Low fat.

339
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 3: Everything on the supermarket shelves, constant marketing about low fat, this,

340
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:28,040
Speaker 3: low fat, that.

341
00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,919
Speaker 1: Iron dite, drinks, diet fucking everything.

342
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 3: Yep, everything low fat, low fat milk, you know, trim light,

343
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,640
Speaker 3: blah blah blah, it's all there. By the way, low

344
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 3: fat milk always amuses me because normal milk is three

345
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,240
Speaker 3: percent fat and low fat milk is two percent fat.

346
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to make a lot of difference, really,

347
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 3: but if you want your milk to taste like water,

348
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 3: knock yourself out.

349
00:19:59,520 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 2: So we did.

350
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 3: We bought all those products, we stopped eating as much fat,

351
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 3: knocked a quarter off our fat consumption. And on the

352
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 3: animal fat, we really smashed it. We knocked it back

353
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 3: by eighty five percent. So all that stuff about you know,

354
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,160
Speaker 3: only trimmed meat, only eat chicken, don't eat red meat,

355
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:25,399
Speaker 3: blah blah blah, all that stuff, we really listened. Eighty

356
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 3: five percent less animal fat consumed over that period.

357
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 2: So all right, big tick for us. We did that.

358
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 3: We're also told knock back the salt, cut back on

359
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 3: the salt, don't put the salt on your food, and

360
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 3: we did it. One third less salt now.

361
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 1: As we said last time, donot eggs. For God's sake,

362
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:47,119
Speaker 1: dynat eggs.

363
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're part of the fat thing. So don't eat eggs,

364
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 3: don't eat any eggs, and don't put salt on them.

365
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 3: We did all that. We now eat a third less

366
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 3: salt than we did in nineteen eighty two. They said

367
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 3: you got to eat more veggies. Eat more veggies and fruit.

368
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 3: That's what you got to do. We did it up

369
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 3: by fifteen percent on vegetables and seven and a half

370
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,439
Speaker 3: percent on fruit. That's not counting fruit juices and some

371
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,160
Speaker 3: which we can come back to later, but just on

372
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 3: the solid stuff, we did ate more fruit and veg

373
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 3: They told us to exercise more.

374
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 2: We did.

375
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety five, thirty percent of us performed moderate

376
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 3: or high levels of exercise every week. Twenty twelve that

377
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 3: it increased to thirty two and a half. It's actually

378
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 3: gotten even higher than that since COVID. For some reason,

379
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 3: since COVID, we've all decided to exercise even more, so

380
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 3: we're doing it. So they told us to eat less fat,

381
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 3: particularly animal fat.

382
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: We did.

383
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 3: They told us to eat their salt, we did. They

384
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 3: told us to eat more fruit and veg we did.

385
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,120
Speaker 3: They told us to exercise more.

386
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 2: We did. And yet now seven percent of us overweight. Nobees, Yeah, And.

387
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,719
Speaker 1: I realized that I see also in that time, like

388
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: this is this is a really good one too, Like obesity,

389
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: not just overweight, but obesity was ten percent, which is

390
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: now thirty it's so that's tripled ye in that same

391
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 1: so doing and this is like why is this? And

392
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: I mean, like when I said before, everyone like there's

393
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: not an opinion in this, like this is this is

394
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: just data, This is just information. These are just numbers.

395
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: This is just research. And I would think, you know,

396
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: it's a pity that's twenty twelve, because I would think

397
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,199
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, it's it's signific some of that

398
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: stuff is significantly worse if we could have today's data.

399
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: But why is there? Is it just because it's so

400
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: profitable all of those things? Is it just because the

401
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: majority of people live in this this echo chamber? Like

402
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: why when you and I have this conversation. And obviously

403
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 1: we're not Channel nine or Channel ten, but we still

404
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: thousands of listeners. Why does it make even if we

405
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: had this with five million listeners, Why doesn't it make

406
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: a difference.

407
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 3: It's mostly about the food supply. So you can read

408
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 3: Healthy Eating. Whenever you criticize the Healthy Eating Guidelines, some

409
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 3: smart ass dietitian will pop up and say, yeah, but

410
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 3: no one actually eats according to the Healthy Eating Guidelines,

411
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 3: so what you're saying is a lot of rubbish. And

412
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 3: the point I'm trying to make here is actually we do.

413
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 3: We have been doing exactly what the Healthy Eating Guidelines

414
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 3: tell us to do, and not because we all went

415
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 3: out and got our own personal copy of the Healthy

416
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 3: Eating Guidelines and started eating that way, but because the

417
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 3: people who supply our food do follow the guidelines. They

418
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 3: see the guidelines as an opportunity to market, which is

419
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 3: why you've got low fat everything. It's why you've got

420
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 3: people who've got gym memberships to sell, promoting exercise. It's

421
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 3: all of these things are ways to sell products. If

422
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: the Healthy Eating Guidelines says eat less fat, eat less salt,

423
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: then what do you do You create a product that's

424
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: got less fat and less salt and say it's in

425
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 3: accordance with the health eating guidelines. Instant health washing of

426
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 3: your product. So that's how it ends up that in

427
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 3: our food supply, and regardless of what you do or

428
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 3: don't know about nutrition, the food supply is being manipulated

429
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 3: by the people who have got money to make from it,

430
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 3: and they are doing it simply on the basis of

431
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 3: whichever thing gets them the health halo. So it comes

432
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 3: back to the people designing the guidelines who say this

433
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: is what will get you a health halo, and so

434
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 3: the people do it. That's the same as with the

435
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: healthy Eating stars that we've talked about before, where you

436
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 3: really should be doing the opposite of what they say,

437
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 3: because they are after the health halo of having five stars.

438
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 3: And if the calculation of the five stars is garbage,

439
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: that doesn't bother them because they want the five stars.

440
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 3: So if you want to change what people are eating,

441
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 3: you have to change the healthy eating guidelines. So let's

442
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: look at how that flowed through. There was one guideline

443
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 3: we didn't follow in nineteen eighty two. The guideline on

444
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 3: sugar was you should eat it in moderation. What does

445
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: that mean who knows.

446
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: For most people, it.

447
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 3: Means whatever I'm currently eating is eating it in moderation.

448
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 2: In subsequent revisions of.

449
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 3: The guidelines, I think by about two thousand and four,

450
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: they actually put a number on that and said twenty percent.

451
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 3: You should eat no more than twenty percent of your

452
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: diet from sugar.

453
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: To me, that's a lot.

454
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 3: One in five calories coming from sugar. That's still a.

455
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 2: Lot, all right.

456
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 3: You might exceed it if you if your breakfast, if

457
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 3: your diet consists entirely of cocoa pops, but you really

458
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: shouldn't be getting one in five calories from sugar, particularly

459
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 3: given what we now know about the science of how

460
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 3: destructive sugar is. So that's the one we didn't obey.

461
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 3: And the reason we didn't obey it is because the

462
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: Healthy Eating Guidelines, aside from mentioning it, kind of ignored it.

463
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: The Heart Foundation in fact, put out a TICK system

464
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 3: that completely ignored the sugar content of food. So the

465
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: Heart Foundation tick did not have sugar as a criteria,

466
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 3: which is why they were able to give the TICK

467
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 3: to products that were seventy two percent sugar like fruit

468
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: roll ups, which we've discussed before. Because sugar wasn't actually

469
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 3: a criteria, so everyone kind of avoided the thing about

470
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 3: the whole sugar thing because the food industry didn't want

471
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 3: anyone mentioning sugar. It was the elephant in the room.

472
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 3: And the reason they didn't want anyone mentioning it is

473
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 3: because it's addictive, and they know it's addictive. They know

474
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 3: that products with sugar sell an awful lot better than

475
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: products without sugar, so they don't want any kind of

476
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: clamp down on sugar in their products, and they will

477
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: resist that even to this day. So the only healthy

478
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 3: guideline we've ignored is the one about sugar, and the

479
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 3: reason we've ignored it is that while it is in

480
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: the guideline, although a bit odd at twenty percent of

481
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 3: your diet, the food industry doesn't mention it.

482
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 2: Ever. They're quite happy.

483
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: To go with low fat, low salt, eat more fruit

484
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: and varage, exercise more. They're all good things that they

485
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 3: can make money out of. The last thing they want

486
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 3: to tell you is to eat less sugar, because then

487
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 3: you might start looking at how much is actually in

488
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: the products, which is a considerable amount. Because of that,

489
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: everything has gone the opposite way of what the guideline said.

490
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 3: The guideline said, if we do all these things, which

491
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: we did, we should all lose weight. We should all

492
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: not have type two diabetes, we should all not have

493
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 3: kidney disease, we should not have cancer, we should not

494
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 3: have you know, you name it. All of those things

495
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 3: should go away if we follow these guides. Well, we

496
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: followed the guidelines except for the sugar bit, and what happened. Well,

497
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 3: as you said, overweight and obesity went from four forty

498
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 3: percent so well, in nineteen eighty forty percent of us

499
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 3: were overweight, and that included ten percent who were who

500
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: are obese, So thirty percent overweight, ten percent OBEs now

501
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 3: seventy percent overweight and obesity is tripled.

502
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: So that didn't work out so well?

503
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,959
Speaker 3: Yes, why well, the science is pretty simple on this.

504
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: You want to make people fat, feed them sugar job done.

505
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 3: So that's what the food industry has done with a

506
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: sort of you know, free pass from the healthy eating

507
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 3: people for the last forty years, and the result is

508
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 3: as predictable as day following night. You want to make

509
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: people fat, feed them sugar done, tie two diabetes. Less

510
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: than one percent of the Australian population in nineteen eighty

511
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: nine had type two diabetes less than one percent.

512
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: Wow, yep.

513
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: And now twenty twenty two it is five point three percent.

514
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: Now that's I mean, I know that's a five hundred

515
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: and whatever a percent increase. I mean, like that is

516
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: five x. And I know it's only five percent in

517
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: inverted commas, but it was less than one, so it's

518
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: probably great. It's probably six or seven hundred percent. But

519
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: do you know what else I find interesting? I don't

520
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: know if you'll find this interesting, but from my background, right,

521
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: so I started working in gyms coincidentally in nineteen eighty

522
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: two when this we're referencing nine eighty two here, and

523
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: you know, then there were no twenty four hour gyms.

524
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: There were no ladies gyms, there were no boutique gyms. Really,

525
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: there was no you know, CrossFit, there was no forty five,

526
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: and there were no personal trainers. There were no personal

527
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 1: training centers. You know, I set up the first personal

528
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: training center in Australia in nine ninety. There's been an

529
00:29:55,160 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: absolute proliferation of fitness options and training options, and you know,

530
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: fucking pilates and group this and commando programs and boot

531
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: camps and indoors and outdoors and and I'm not saying

532
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: this is causal, but I'm just saying and at the

533
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: same time everything, you know, everything's still gone through the roof.

534
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: You know. It's like, and I'm not saying.

535
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 3: That there'd be a sane argument to make to say

536
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 3: that the gym's cause obesity.

537
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, but clearly they don't.

538
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: But what I'm saying they don't. But the state It's interesting.

539
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: For me though, is like people are working out more

540
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: so it just tells me how fucking terrible our diet is.

541
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: Because despite the fact that more people are training and

542
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: more people are working out, more people are aware, there's

543
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: still a lot of people who don't work out and

544
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: don't do any structured exercise, of course, but it is

545
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: probably more than it's ever been in the last one

546
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: hundred years where people are intentionally going working out. But

547
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: I think also another factor while I'm banging on is

548
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: incidental and occupational activity a down somewhere around eight hundred

549
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: calories a day, I think based on a couple of

550
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: generations ago. So we just as a population, we don't

551
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: move much.

552
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: Although there was that really interesting study and I don't

553
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: know the reference off the top of my head, where they.

554
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,479
Speaker 3: I think they went into the darkest parts of Africa

555
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 3: and found a tribe that was essentially untouched by Western

556
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 3: civilization and measured their calorie intake and their exercise, and

557
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: the average urban dweller in the US I think in

558
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 3: that study consumed considerably more calories but also did considerably

559
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: more exercise than these people. Mostly what they did was

560
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: lie around and do nothing because food was hard to

561
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 3: come by and they didn't want to expend energy unless

562
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: they were going to end up getting some food out

563
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 3: of it. So, you know, the thing is, lumberjacks eat

564
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: a lot of calories. Office workers eat not many, and

565
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 3: that's all automatically controlled if you haven't stuffed up the

566
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: automatically controlled by consuming sugar.

567
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, but some office workers eat lumberjack calories. That's the problem.

568
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 3: And the only way they can do that is by

569
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: consuming a chemical which interferes with your appetite control system.

570
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

571
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, No matter how much we want to attribute it

572
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: to a character flaw, it's actually biochemistry.

573
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. When you were and I don't want to

574
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: open any door that you don't want to open, but

575
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: when you were kind of integrating this thinking and this

576
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: way of eating being living into your family, into your home.

577
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: Did you have any pushback from anyone or did you

578
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: like or did you just do it and they caught

579
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: on or did you go listen, toeam, here's our protocol.

580
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 3: Well, I did it when two of them weren't born,

581
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 3: so they didn't get a choice.

582
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: So they they grew up in it.

583
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, the old cult, that's the oldest. The oldest one

584
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 3: was eight, then the next one down was six. They

585
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: theoretically had a choice and probably didn't go with it

586
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: entirely at the start, but eventually it's I mean when

587
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 3: it's the only thing you're offered at home, and home

588
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 3: controls most of what you're eating, you know, either at

589
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 3: home or at school. Giving you don't you're not independently wealthy,

590
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: which they weren't, then you're really controlling most of what

591
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: they eat, even if they do go out and have

592
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 3: the occasional binge with their mates. Yes, you know, almost

593
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 3: all of what they eat is being controlled by home life.

594
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, initially some pushback. Ultimately no, by the time

595
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: they were teenagers, they could read the books and the

596
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: science themselves. And and that's what I find about this

597
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: is if you go to the trouble of understanding why

598
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 3: people do understand it and do it. And that's not

599
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: just in relation to sugar. It's in relation to everything

600
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 3: I write about. You know, people say, oh, you know,

601
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: I go and talk with schools about teen brain for example,

602
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 3: and the dangers of addiction to devices, and if you

603
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 3: just bang on the way everyone does about our devices

604
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 3: are evil and so on, most teenagers tune out at

605
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 3: about sentence number two. But if you explain the biochemistry

606
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 3: to them and in detail and have them understand why

607
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 3: and how it exactly works, I'd say about a third

608
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: of them instantaneously change the way they interact with technology.

609
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know we've spoken about a little bit,

610
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: and I know you've got to go. But how much

611
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: how much of an impact do you think, Like you

612
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: having raised a whole tribe of kids who basically most

613
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: of them from you know, either from very young or

614
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: from birth, didn't it didn't have any sh in their diet,

615
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: you know, like very few chemicals, very little sugar, very

616
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 1: little processed food, you know, very few chemicals in the house.

617
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: And of course you don't have a b sample to

618
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 1: compare your tribe too. But how much of an impact

619
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: do you think that the way you know, what was

620
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: put in their body and what their bodies were exposed

621
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: to more broadly kept them mentally well because we know

622
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: there's a relationship between food and mental health, among other things.

623
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: Well, touchwood doing okay so far.

624
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, youngest ones are now twenty one and doing

625
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 3: okay so far. I think it's more the case of

626
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 3: a good setup. Everyone's healthy till they're twenty. You know,

627
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 3: the human the human body is extremely resilient. It can

628
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 3: take a lot of punishment in the younger years, but

629
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 3: some of the stuff you do to it then can

630
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 3: set you up for bad outcomes later on.

631
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: And I probably fall into that category.

632
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: You know, I probably wrecked my teeth through the way

633
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 3: I ate until my early thirties when I started reading

634
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: and doing something about sugar. And they've been fine since then,

635
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 3: but you know, I didn't give them a good start.

636
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 3: And I think it's not just teeth that are in

637
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 3: that category. Lots of people are doing lots of damage

638
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 3: with no visible symptoms until they hit their thirties and

639
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: then they start to worry about it. And sometimes it's

640
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 3: too late. Sometimes it's reversible, but sometimes it isn't.

641
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so true. I mean, obviously, depending on what

642
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: you're doing and how much you know shit, you're either

643
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: eating or exposing yourself to or doing or not doing.

644
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: But I feel like, having worked with lots of people

645
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: face to face, one on one with them their bodies

646
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: and with them the inhabitants of said body, that people

647
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: can kind of get away with some pretty rubbish lifestyle

648
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: habits and behaviors till around thirty. But yeah, if somebody's

649
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: flogged themselves or they're forty five or fifty, you can improve,

650
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: but it's pretty you can't reverse it, like you're never

651
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: gonna You can improve, and you can make better decisions

652
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: and choices, and you know, upgrade their physiology somewhat. But yeah,

653
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: there's a there's a point of no return, I reckon.

654
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a lot of things are reversible, particularly

655
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 3: the sugar related damage. Seed oil is less so, but

656
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 3: the sugar related damage. You know, you can be pre

657
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 3: diabetic and cut the sugar out and reverse that and

658
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: really swerve away from type two diabetes, you know, kidney disease.

659
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: The damage is cumulative and relatively permanent, and that's another

660
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 3: consequence of sugar consumption. Luckily, we can get by on

661
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: kidneys that only work five percent of the time. Well,

662
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 3: you know, at five percent efficiency, you know. But sadly,

663
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: between twenty and one and twenty twenty two, for example,

664
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 3: kidney dialysis admissions tripled in Australia. We've gone from a

665
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 3: non existent disease to a serious, serious, chronic disease. And

666
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 3: then that's a very bad one because kidney dialysis is

667
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 3: a daily thing just to keep you alive. And before

668
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: we were talking about those type two diabetes stats. Five

669
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 3: point three percent is a fairly dry stat but that

670
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 3: means every day twelve people in Australia will have an

671
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 3: amputation because of type two diabetes. Every day, twelve to day,

672
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: another twelve tomorrow, another twelve the day after, and twenty

673
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: seven more are admitted to hospital for complications of diabetes.

674
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 3: So this is starting to be a seriously, seriously bad story,

675
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 3: and it just gets worse and it's accelerating, and the

676
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 3: only way to change it is actually have our healthy

677
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 3: eaty guidelines be healthy eaty guidelines, have it that a

678
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 3: five star rated food is actually something that's full of

679
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: saturated fat and has no sugar in it.

680
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the thing with type two diabetes too, is

681
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: without you know, trying to be insensitive. It's like completely

682
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: self created. It's like we do it.

683
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: Is, but there's no judgment in that.

684
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's I mean that, Yeah, of course it's

685
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: it's a consequence of doing what they told us to do.

686
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: That is true. Yeah, yeah, it's always fun, sir. Do

687
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: you want to steer our audience towards anything? I know

688
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 1: you're the worst self promoter of all time, But.

689
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: Well they can go and have a look at that

690
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 2: substack I put.

691
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 3: I put a new article up every couple of days

692
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 3: there so, and we talk about one or two of

693
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 3: them every fortnight. But there's always interesting stuff there if

694
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 3: you want to have a look at it.

695
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: All right, I appreciate you as ways, we'll say goodbye

696
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: fair but again thanks for your time, buddy.

697
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: Pleasure