1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:07,140 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. One 2 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:09,569 Sean Aylmer: of the big features of the last 18 months has 3 00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:13,170 Sean Aylmer: been a chronic shortage of workers. This goes across pretty 4 00:00:13,170 --> 00:00:17,340 Sean Aylmer: much all industries, but one forecasting big future shortfalls is 5 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:19,980 Sean Aylmer: the tech sector. My guest today knows this space well, 6 00:00:19,980 --> 00:00:23,640 Sean Aylmer: running the largest information and communications technology training company in 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,840 Sean Aylmer: Australasia. Jon Lang is the CEO of Lumify Group. Jon, 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:29,130 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 9 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:31,200 Jon Lang: Thanks, Sean. Thanks for having me today. 10 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,239 Sean Aylmer: Now, there was a lot of talk last year about 11 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,960 Sean Aylmer: the need for workers in the tech space. Then when 12 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,339 Sean Aylmer: you read all these stories about the big US tech 13 00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:45,390 Sean Aylmer: players, you've seen all these layoffs coming, but I presume 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:52,650 Sean Aylmer: there's a difference here between engineering/ coding experts and others? 15 00:00:52,650 --> 00:00:54,480 Sean Aylmer: Is that why there's this dichotomy at the moment? 16 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,860 Jon Lang: Look, it's a great question because it's interesting. Over the 17 00:00:58,980 --> 00:01:02,040 Jon Lang: recent weeks, there's been a lot of media out there, 18 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,700 Jon Lang: whether they're highlighting the redundancies and the layoffs in big 19 00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:09,330 Jon Lang: US firms, whether it's your Microsoft, whether it's Google, Facebook, 20 00:01:09,330 --> 00:01:12,840 Jon Lang: whoever it is. I've had numerous calls and actually staff 21 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,720 Jon Lang: team members come up to me thinking, what's going on? 22 00:01:15,930 --> 00:01:19,110 Jon Lang: We're in the IT space. Does that directly correlate to 23 00:01:19,110 --> 00:01:22,860 Jon Lang: us? And interestingly, it's actually, there's a couple of things 24 00:01:22,860 --> 00:01:25,890 Jon Lang: that are really driving that, and a lot of the 25 00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:29,730 Jon Lang: time it's that mismatch of skills. So it's actually a 26 00:01:29,730 --> 00:01:33,000 Jon Lang: lot of those businesses are still looking for people, but 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,330 Jon Lang: it's a misalignment of skills. As you highlighted, some of 28 00:01:36,330 --> 00:01:39,720 Jon Lang: those technical areas that they really focus on and those areas 29 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,820 Jon Lang: that, in fact, a lot of those redundancies have happened. 30 00:01:42,330 --> 00:01:45,270 Jon Lang: Some of those other ones have been simply people that 31 00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:48,779 Jon Lang: they've hired. There's one particular vendor in particular that the 32 00:01:48,780 --> 00:01:52,080 Jon Lang: vast majority of their redundancies were in an area that 33 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,710 Jon Lang: was only hired over the last 12 months. However, what 34 00:01:55,710 --> 00:01:58,529 Jon Lang: we're seeing is a lot of those customers are actually 35 00:01:59,070 --> 00:02:02,490 Jon Lang: looking still for a lot of talent, but it's that 36 00:02:02,490 --> 00:02:05,460 Jon Lang: skillset that they don't currently have with the people that 37 00:02:05,460 --> 00:02:08,820 Jon Lang: have moved on. So for me, the biggest thing is 38 00:02:09,210 --> 00:02:12,419 Jon Lang: there's an assumption that because these large tech vendors are 39 00:02:12,419 --> 00:02:16,139 Jon Lang: making the redundancies and cutbacks that the tech industry's in 40 00:02:16,139 --> 00:02:19,590 Jon Lang: trouble. It's far from that. In fact, it is just 41 00:02:19,590 --> 00:02:22,860 Jon Lang: the misalignment of talent and the skills that currently people 42 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:27,299 Jon Lang: have is simply not meeting the needs of the skills 43 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:31,410 Jon Lang: that the vendors and the large IT businesses currently need 44 00:02:31,470 --> 00:02:32,579 Jon Lang: and want for the future. 45 00:02:33,060 --> 00:02:34,799 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what are those skills? 46 00:02:35,490 --> 00:02:38,400 Jon Lang: So there's a lot, and across our group, within the 47 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,960 Jon Lang: Lumify Group, we do have circa 30 different categories that 48 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,139 Jon Lang: we're able to look after. But what we're definitely seeing 49 00:02:46,139 --> 00:02:50,820 Jon Lang: is clearly cybersecurity. Cybersecurity is an area, I don't have 50 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:53,880 Jon Lang: the statistic to confirm this, but I would be very, 51 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,010 Jon Lang: very surprised if any of the redundancies or the layoffs or the cutbacks 52 00:02:59,010 --> 00:03:02,399 Jon Lang: we talk of are a reduction in the cybersecurity team. 53 00:03:02,790 --> 00:03:07,110 Jon Lang: What we're hearing within Australia, remembering that, let's just say of the ASX 54 00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:12,660 Jon Lang: 200, 98% of them are our customers, they are all 55 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,200 Jon Lang: yelling out for cyber talent. So there is no doubt 56 00:03:16,590 --> 00:03:20,070 Jon Lang: that cyber skills is one of the biggest areas. We 57 00:03:20,070 --> 00:03:22,710 Jon Lang: know it's forecast to have tens of thousands of new 58 00:03:22,710 --> 00:03:27,270 Jon Lang: jobs over the next few years. We're constantly hearing about 59 00:03:27,270 --> 00:03:30,960 Jon Lang: that as being the skills shortage, I would say biggest 60 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,080 Jon Lang: contributor to the crisis we hear of in the tech 61 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,140 Jon Lang: skills. So I would definitely lean towards cyber is the 62 00:03:37,140 --> 00:03:40,770 Jon Lang: main skillset that is in high demand. But we are 63 00:03:40,770 --> 00:03:44,340 Jon Lang: also seeing, which I also find quite interesting, is a 64 00:03:44,340 --> 00:03:48,390 Jon Lang: demand for cloud skills. Now, it's interesting, a lot of 65 00:03:48,390 --> 00:03:52,860 Jon Lang: people think, oh, come on, we're in 2023. Surely everyone's 66 00:03:52,860 --> 00:03:57,270 Jon Lang: moved to the cloud now. Interestingly enough, a vast majority 67 00:03:57,270 --> 00:04:00,810 Jon Lang: of large enterprise businesses, not only just in Australia but 68 00:04:00,810 --> 00:04:06,330 Jon Lang: globally, still have what you'd call on- prem technology. So 69 00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:08,910 Jon Lang: interestingly, and this is, I would have to call it 70 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:11,880 Jon Lang: out, something I didn't see was going to happen is 71 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,200 Jon Lang: simply the demand for cloud skills is also on the 72 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,169 Jon Lang: rise. So I'd probably flag those two as the two 73 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:19,800 Jon Lang: main areas. 74 00:04:19,980 --> 00:04:22,229 Sean Aylmer: So when we talk about this, and we'll take cybersecurity 75 00:04:22,230 --> 00:04:26,040 Sean Aylmer: as an example, what sort of training, what sort of 76 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:31,020 Sean Aylmer: skills are you talking about? It's beyond help desk skills 77 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,030 Sean Aylmer: presumably. What is it? 78 00:04:33,870 --> 00:04:37,290 Jon Lang: So we have a whole team of cybersecurity experts within 79 00:04:37,290 --> 00:04:40,799 Jon Lang: Lumify Group, and that's because you rightfully just called out 80 00:04:40,830 --> 00:04:43,140 Jon Lang: it is not just one skillset, it is not just 81 00:04:43,140 --> 00:04:47,130 Jon Lang: everyone does a course on email scams or phishing. There is 82 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,240 Jon Lang: a lot more to it. It's not dissimilar to, let's 83 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,690 Jon Lang: just say the medical industry where you can go in 84 00:04:54,690 --> 00:04:58,589 Jon Lang: specialties. There at the moment is this assumption that if 85 00:04:58,589 --> 00:05:02,550 Jon Lang: you become a cybersecurity expert, you're across everything. That's clearly 86 00:05:02,550 --> 00:05:05,219 Jon Lang: not the case. You mentioned the first one, help desk, 87 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,089 Jon Lang: we call that awareness training. That awareness training, it is 88 00:05:09,390 --> 00:05:11,970 Jon Lang: irrelevant what your position is in the business, whether you 89 00:05:11,970 --> 00:05:15,480 Jon Lang: are the CEO or you are the person that meets 90 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:18,059 Jon Lang: clients as they enter the building such as a receptionist 91 00:05:18,330 --> 00:05:22,049 Jon Lang: or you're a salesperson. That awareness training, it's critical and 92 00:05:22,050 --> 00:05:25,050 Jon Lang: it affects everyone. But as you move into the technical 93 00:05:25,050 --> 00:05:28,110 Jon Lang: aspects, which you just flagged, you've got lots of different 94 00:05:28,110 --> 00:05:32,730 Jon Lang: specialties. You've got network security experts, you've got cloud security 95 00:05:32,730 --> 00:05:37,410 Jon Lang: experts, you've got penetration testing experts. We would have the 96 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:43,020 Jon Lang: better part of 50 to 100 different certifications that cover the cybersecurity 97 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:47,340 Jon Lang: range. So it's very technical and I'm not a technical 98 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,690 Jon Lang: expert on everything with cybersecurity because it is a very complicated landscape. 99 00:05:52,140 --> 00:05:53,760 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Jon, and we'll be back in a 100 00:05:53,760 --> 00:06:03,570 Sean Aylmer: minute. I am speaking to Jon Lang, Chief Executive Officer 101 00:06:03,690 --> 00:06:07,830 Sean Aylmer: of Lumify Group. The other thing is, when we talk 102 00:06:07,830 --> 00:06:12,210 Sean Aylmer: about qualifications, so it's kind of not quite a structured 103 00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:17,339 Sean Aylmer: cybersecurity or the tech industry as law or doc medicine 104 00:06:17,339 --> 00:06:20,369 Sean Aylmer: or something like that, but there are some sort of 105 00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:25,950 Sean Aylmer: recognized certifications in the industry, CompTIA, these sorts of things 106 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,279 Sean Aylmer: which people do take with high regard. Is that how 107 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:29,729 Sean Aylmer: it works? 108 00:06:30,150 --> 00:06:33,359 Jon Lang: Absolutely. The way I would explain it is there are 109 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,560 Jon Lang: two sides. You've got accreditation and then you've got certification. 110 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:42,599 Jon Lang: Accreditation is everything from your TAFEs or your registered training 111 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,470 Jon Lang: organizations, and they start at your Cert 1 Level, and 112 00:06:46,470 --> 00:06:49,140 Jon Lang: then you can go through to, as you said, doctrines, 113 00:06:49,140 --> 00:06:53,130 Jon Lang: et cetera, or universities and bachelor degrees, et cetera. What they are 114 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,950 Jon Lang: is they're nationally recognized qualifications. Interestingly, one of our most 115 00:06:58,950 --> 00:07:01,890 Jon Lang: popular courses, which has only just come out is the 116 00:07:01,890 --> 00:07:05,040 Jon Lang: Cert IV in Cyber Security. That's an accreditation. So that 117 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,880 Jon Lang: is only nationally recognized. What you then move across to 118 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,610 Jon Lang: is the other side of the coin, and I personally 119 00:07:11,610 --> 00:07:14,400 Jon Lang: believe it is the most valuable side of the coin, 120 00:07:14,940 --> 00:07:17,880 Jon Lang: and that is the certifications. Now, those certifications are the likes 121 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,000 Jon Lang: of CompTIA, you mentioned, there are plenty of other vendors 122 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:25,020 Jon Lang: out there, which is where it gets complicated because there 123 00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:28,140 Jon Lang: isn't one source of truth. There is not one vendor 124 00:07:28,140 --> 00:07:30,930 Jon Lang: that you go to for everything. You would have vendors 125 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:34,980 Jon Lang: that cover everything, but what we find with customers is 126 00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:38,430 Jon Lang: they've got specific technology needs. The interesting part of the 127 00:07:38,430 --> 00:07:44,190 Jon Lang: certification path, which differs from qualifications is CompTIA, as the 128 00:07:44,190 --> 00:07:48,720 Jon Lang: example you've used, it's actually internationally recognized. So, if you 129 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,220 Jon Lang: have a CompTIA certification, that is recognized all around the world. 130 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:55,890 Sean Aylmer: One thing about this, and I mean I have to 131 00:07:55,890 --> 00:07:59,190 Sean Aylmer: actually, I've got a disclaimer here because I do have 132 00:07:59,190 --> 00:08:02,460 Sean Aylmer: an interest in a cyber training company, which is kind 133 00:08:02,460 --> 00:08:04,350 Sean Aylmer: of why I know about CompTIA and stuff like that. 134 00:08:04,350 --> 00:08:07,740 Sean Aylmer: But one thing I think is of interest is that 135 00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:10,800 Sean Aylmer: it's amazing the range of people that can actually learn 136 00:08:10,830 --> 00:08:13,740 Sean Aylmer: these skills, I think is what I'm saying. So if 137 00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:17,880 Sean Aylmer: you're re- skilling, retraining whoever you've got in your head 138 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,250 Sean Aylmer: as the typical person to go and do that, isn't 139 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:23,280 Sean Aylmer: necessarily the typical person who goes and does that. 140 00:08:23,910 --> 00:08:27,690 Jon Lang: Absolutely, and the thing is, it has a pathway. CompTIA is 141 00:08:27,780 --> 00:08:32,370 Jon Lang: a fantastic example of a vendor that's got great pathway. 142 00:08:32,370 --> 00:08:35,309 Jon Lang: So depending on the reason for you doing that course, 143 00:08:35,309 --> 00:08:39,000 Jon Lang: whether it's re- skilling, whether you're a new entrant into 144 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,410 Jon Lang: that area, whether it's just widening your knowledge, whatever that 145 00:08:43,410 --> 00:08:46,679 Jon Lang: reason is or which area of cybersecurity, there is going to 146 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:51,690 Jon Lang: be a pathway. Some are mapped out better and clearer 147 00:08:51,690 --> 00:08:55,860 Jon Lang: to understand than other vendors, but ultimately what you can 148 00:08:55,860 --> 00:08:59,309 Jon Lang: look at is the reason you're training, and the biggest 149 00:08:59,309 --> 00:09:01,500 Jon Lang: component which you should always ask yourself when it comes 150 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:04,890 Jon Lang: to training is what's the outcome I'm looking to achieve? 151 00:09:05,220 --> 00:09:08,970 Jon Lang: Because that ultimately will help you determine which qualification, which 152 00:09:08,970 --> 00:09:12,540 Jon Lang: certification, and then which certification with which vendor you want. 153 00:09:12,540 --> 00:09:15,390 Jon Lang: You should always look at what is the outcome? Why 154 00:09:15,390 --> 00:09:17,130 Jon Lang: am I doing this? What do I hope to achieve 155 00:09:17,130 --> 00:09:19,170 Jon Lang: at the end? And then you should be able to 156 00:09:19,170 --> 00:09:22,679 Jon Lang: look at any vendor, the certification that you choose, and 157 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,590 Jon Lang: make sure that they're mapped and make sure that if 158 00:09:25,590 --> 00:09:30,000 Jon Lang: I complete that certification. Irrelevant whether you choose Lumify as 159 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,670 Jon Lang: your choice or the training provider you work with as 160 00:09:32,670 --> 00:09:36,120 Jon Lang: well, to me, it is just making sure that the 161 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,630 Jon Lang: person attending that training is ensuring that the outcome they 162 00:09:39,630 --> 00:09:43,500 Jon Lang: were hoping to achieve is aligned to what that certification 163 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:44,550 Jon Lang: promises to offer. 164 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,040 Sean Aylmer: And, as you said, there are tens of thousands of 165 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,720 Sean Aylmer: potential jobs out there, so training is certainly a massive 166 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,870 Sean Aylmer: need. What about when it comes... I suppose I'm shifting 167 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:57,720 Sean Aylmer: to leadership a little bit here. One of the challenge 168 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,750 Sean Aylmer: of course in Australia is to get a diversity of 169 00:10:00,750 --> 00:10:03,809 Sean Aylmer: people in the area, gender being only one part of 170 00:10:03,809 --> 00:10:07,470 Sean Aylmer: that, it's much broader than that. How important is it 171 00:10:07,470 --> 00:10:11,490 Sean Aylmer: for leaders, not just tech leaders, but business leaders to 172 00:10:11,490 --> 00:10:14,400 Sean Aylmer: really grab hold of this and run with it to 173 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,290 Sean Aylmer: actually make it something that people want to do? 174 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,670 Jon Lang: I love the fact you've brought that up. One of 175 00:10:20,670 --> 00:10:23,460 Jon Lang: the things that I always highlight when it comes to 176 00:10:23,460 --> 00:10:27,090 Jon Lang: the leadership side of things, whether it's a customer that's 177 00:10:27,090 --> 00:10:30,000 Jon Lang: running, an IT manager or a CTO that's running a big IT 178 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:33,390 Jon Lang: team, whether it's a leader of a training business or 179 00:10:33,390 --> 00:10:37,980 Jon Lang: whatever that might be, surround yourself with diversity. Now, absolutely, 180 00:10:37,980 --> 00:10:42,179 Jon Lang: and I agree that word diversity usually spearheads into a 181 00:10:42,179 --> 00:10:46,140 Jon Lang: conversation about gender diversity, which is absolutely a contributing part, 182 00:10:46,860 --> 00:10:50,160 Jon Lang: but I'd also flag two other areas. I would say 183 00:10:50,370 --> 00:10:53,969 Jon Lang: diversity in the style of the people you're surrounding yourselves, 184 00:10:54,270 --> 00:10:58,500 Jon Lang: but also a diversity of the skills. Every leadership group, 185 00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:00,719 Jon Lang: whether you are the CEO and you have a leadership 186 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,140 Jon Lang: team that supports you, what you want to make sure 187 00:11:04,620 --> 00:11:09,060 Jon Lang: is you're moving away from a tech conversation, you haven't 188 00:11:09,330 --> 00:11:12,450 Jon Lang: only got people with financial skills. You want to make 189 00:11:12,450 --> 00:11:16,920 Jon Lang: sure that you have a nice diverse collection of skills, 190 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,500 Jon Lang: and that's the same as cybersecurity or that's the same 191 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:22,230 Jon Lang: as any CTO. Cybersecurity is only one area that you 192 00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:26,040 Jon Lang: need to make sure you have covered. So my suggestion 193 00:11:26,340 --> 00:11:29,610 Jon Lang: and something that I really focus on in any decision 194 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,850 Jon Lang: that I'm a part of is making sure I'm surrounding 195 00:11:32,850 --> 00:11:37,559 Jon Lang: myself with diverse views, diverse backgrounds, because it really helps 196 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,500 Jon Lang: you challenge the way of thinking that maybe you were 197 00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:43,770 Jon Lang: planning on going down. And it allows you just to 198 00:11:43,770 --> 00:11:48,329 Jon Lang: consider other opinions, other views on something that you might 199 00:11:48,330 --> 00:11:49,590 Jon Lang: have thought was only one option. 200 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,530 Sean Aylmer: Jon, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 201 00:11:52,890 --> 00:11:53,400 Jon Lang: Thanks, Sean. 202 00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:56,790 Sean Aylmer: That was Jon Lang, CEO of Lumify Group. This is 203 00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:58,920 Sean Aylmer: the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning 204 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:00,960 Sean Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most 205 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,230 Sean Aylmer: popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.