Speaker 1: So Jason this story. It's quite a scoop.
Speaker 2: Thanks, Ruby, It certainly is, and just one of those
Speaker 2: things where someone called me said they had a story
Speaker 2: they wanted to brief me about and suggested we meet
Speaker 2: for a beer.
Speaker 1: So we did, And so what did this source say
Speaker 1: to you?
Speaker 2: So what they told me is that there's been a
Speaker 2: complete breakdown between the states and territories and the federal government.
Speaker 2: I've a how to handle counter terrorism, which obviously is
Speaker 2: a huge deal, and I was pretty blown away and
Speaker 2: wondered if this really had happened, So I started digging into.
Speaker 1: It from Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.
Speaker 1: There's a greater than fifty percent chance that there'll be
Speaker 1: a terrorist attack or a planned attack in Australia in
Speaker 1: the next year. That's the reality behind the head of
Speaker 1: Azio's decision recently to upgrade the terror threat level to probable.
Speaker 1: So the need for all states and territories to be
Speaker 1: working hand in hand for the federal government is greater
Speaker 1: than ever. But that's not what's happening. The states and
Speaker 1: territories have taken the unprecedented step of abandoning the Albanese
Speaker 1: government's planned counter terrorism strategy in favor of figuring it
Speaker 1: out themselves. Today, special correspondent for the Saturday paper, Jason
Speaker 1: Cotsukus on why they're doing that and what it means
Speaker 1: for our safety. It's Friday, October fourth, So, Jason, after
Speaker 1: you got this tip about a breakdown in counter terrorism planning,
Speaker 1: tell me what you discovered.
Speaker 2: Well, firstly that yes, there had been a breakdown between
Speaker 2: the States and the territories and the Commonwealth, and that
Speaker 2: the federal government was now pursuing its own carter terrorism
Speaker 2: strategy without the States and territories. This strategy has been
Speaker 2: underway for the.
Speaker 3: Past two years. The last one was released.
Speaker 2: I think in February twenty twenty two. But given the
Speaker 2: fast changing nature of the threats that we face, it's
Speaker 2: really important that these carterterrorism strategies are updated to counter
Speaker 2: that evolving threat. And this decision by the Commonwealth to
Speaker 2: pursue its own strategy really contradicts this principle of national unity,
Speaker 2: and I think senior people in the government know this
Speaker 2: is a big problem. One senior Albanesi government official told
Speaker 2: me that at all levels this is a classifact.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, that's a federal government official saying that to you.
Speaker 1: So who is responsible then for the breakdown, the clear
Speaker 1: breakdown in this working relationship.
Speaker 2: So I think for this particular strategy, government insiders are
Speaker 2: pointing to the Center for counter Terrorism Coordination. This is
Speaker 2: a unit within the Department of Home Affairs and they
Speaker 2: described it as being ground zero for the problems surrounding
Speaker 2: the development of this new strategy. The same advisor told
Speaker 2: me that really there's a lack of trust in the
Speaker 2: CCTC and its leadership, and it's got so bad that
Speaker 2: key national security agencies such as AZO and the Australian
Speaker 2: Federal Police, we're no longer exchanging the vital information with
Speaker 2: the Coordination Center that is needed for it to function properly,
Speaker 2: and that this lack of trust is really undermining its
Speaker 2: ability to lead Australia's counter terrorism framework. Another national security
Speaker 2: policy expert that I spoke to who's got very close
Speaker 2: tied the government, so that making matters worse is the
Speaker 2: fact that this department is really distracted by the issue
Speaker 2: of immigration, that immigration is burning a hole in Home Affairs.
Speaker 3: And I think another.
Speaker 2: Complication here is that there are rumors of a tense
Speaker 2: relationship between the head of the department and the new
Speaker 2: Minister Tony Burke.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you have this center for counter Terrorism Coordination
Speaker 1: that's within the Department of Home Affairs and people say
Speaker 1: that it's not working as it should and then you
Speaker 1: also have what seems like a breakdown in the relationship
Speaker 1: between the minister and the head of the department. So
Speaker 1: how important is Home Affairs and what role does it
Speaker 1: play in our national security?
Speaker 3: This is actually the heart of a ruby.
Speaker 2: There is a big problem with Home Affairs as a
Speaker 2: department right now, and that is that there is a
Speaker 2: lack of trust from the Albanezy government towards this department. Now,
Speaker 2: I should mention I actually worked for Clara O'Neill when
Speaker 2: she was Home Affairs Minister before this reshuffle. I was
Speaker 2: her media advisor for nearly two years. And while it
Speaker 2: isn't really relevant to how I came to this story,
Speaker 2: it did give me an insight into how that department
Speaker 2: operates and how it has changed over time. So Home
Speaker 2: Affairs as we know it it is basically the brainchild
Speaker 2: of Mike Pizzolo. Mike Pizzolo was the longtime boss at
Speaker 2: Home Affairs and he's the person who turned it into
Speaker 2: this powerful ministry, encompassing ASO, the AFP, immigration and cybersecurity.
Speaker 4: Policy, Australia's security agencies are getting their biggest shake up
Speaker 4: in decades. The Prime Ministers announced he'll give the Immigration
Speaker 4: Minister Peter Dutton a new super portfolio with responsibility for
Speaker 4: Australia's spy Agency ASIO and the Federal Police but Labor.
Speaker 2: He was the department head when Peter Dutton was the Minister,
Speaker 2: and he had a pretty spectacular fall from grace last
Speaker 2: year when it was found that he had acted improperly
Speaker 2: in the role as Secretary of Home Affairs.
Speaker 1: Breaking news out of camera this morning, the Prime Minister
Speaker 1: has confirmed that Mike Bizzolo has been sacked from his
Speaker 1: role as the Home Affairs Secretary Large atreaty MACANDALT.
Speaker 2: Now Mike Bizulo has gone, Peter Dutton is gone, but
Speaker 2: Labour are now in charge and they have been very
Speaker 2: keen to change the shape of this department. The Attorney
Speaker 2: General macdrethus in particular has been keen to lessen its power.
Speaker 2: First they took the AFP out of Home Affairs and
Speaker 2: put it under the control of the ag and then
Speaker 2: they removed ASIO too, also putting it back in the
Speaker 2: AG's portfolio. So that really just leaves immigration, cybersecurity policy
Speaker 2: and national security as the big things that Home Affairs does.
Speaker 2: And I think the big problem is that if you
Speaker 2: are responsible for national security but you don't also have
Speaker 2: oversight of AZO and the AFP, that's a recipe for
Speaker 2: a communication breakdown. And you know, one of my key
Speaker 2: sources for this story told me, and i'll just quote
Speaker 2: this person from the point of view of the States,
Speaker 2: it's a frustration with the Commonwealth and particularly Home Affairs
Speaker 2: over the way this strategy has been developed, which has
Speaker 2: been backwards and forwards, on again, off again, that sort
Speaker 2: of thing, and I think eventually the States and territories
Speaker 2: just thought, well fuck it.
Speaker 1: Coming up after the break Australia's threat level and how
Speaker 1: the States and territories should be working with the Commonwealth. So, Jason,
Speaker 1: you've been reporting on the troubles at Home Affairs and
Speaker 1: how that relates to this extraordinary decision states and territories
Speaker 1: have made to essentially go their own way when it
Speaker 1: comes to planning for counter terrorism. This seems like it
Speaker 1: could become a big problem when you take into account
Speaker 1: what we're hearing from Asio about possible threats to our
Speaker 1: national security.
Speaker 2: Well, it's more important than ever for the States and
Speaker 2: Commonwealth to be on the same page, especially after the
Speaker 2: Director General of Security, Mike Burgess recently raised Australia's national
Speaker 2: terrorism threat level from possible to probable.
Speaker 5: We are seeing an increase in extremism. More Australians are
Speaker 5: being radicalized and radicalized more quickly, More Australians are embracing
Speaker 5: a more diverse range of extreme ideologies, and more Australians
Speaker 5: are willing to use violence to advance their cause.
Speaker 2: At the time, Mike Burgers said that asio's decision to
Speaker 2: raise the threat level reflected the degrading security environment.
Speaker 5: The threats are becoming harder to predict and identify. The
Speaker 5: drivers of dalization for events, extremism are growing and interacting
Speaker 5: in ways we've not seen before.
Speaker 2: A threat level of probable means that, in asio's assessment,
Speaker 2: there's a greater than fifty percent chance of an onshore
Speaker 2: terrorist attack or terrorist attack planning occurring within the next
Speaker 2: twelve months, and Mike Burgess said that we are seeing
Speaker 2: increase in extremism and that more Australians are being radicalized
Speaker 2: and radicalized much more quickly.
Speaker 1: Okay, So given that, then how should the federal government
Speaker 1: and state governments be working together on this? What would
Speaker 1: it look like if this was going well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. And I spoke to Lydia
Speaker 2: Khalil about this. She's the program director for Transnational Challenges
Speaker 2: at the Lowe Institute, and she told me that while
Speaker 2: it's often the case that these high level documents tend
Speaker 2: to be removed from the general publics awareness, they are
Speaker 2: incredibly useful for helping governments prioritize programs and spending. Now,
Speaker 2: the main argument for a national counterterrorism strategy that is
Speaker 2: fully inclusive of state and territory governments is based on
Speaker 2: the fact that not only are state government law enforcement
Speaker 2: agencies the first responders when it comes to terrorism incidents,
Speaker 2: but they are crucial when it comes to identifying people
Speaker 2: who are displaying worrying behavior early on in their lives,
Speaker 2: whether that be through secondary schools, psychology support programs, countering
Speaker 2: violent extremism programs, these are all things that are run
Speaker 2: by the states, and, as a national security policy expert
Speaker 2: told me, the people who are conceiving ideas linked to
Speaker 2: violent extremism, who are joining these movements actually don't often
Speaker 2: come to the attention of law enforcement through security processes.
Speaker 2: They come to their attention through education, health and other
Speaker 2: programs that are all run by the states and territories.
Speaker 2: So you must be hardwired with the states and territories.
Speaker 2: You cannot have a commonwealth counter terrorism strategy.
Speaker 3: The notion of.
Speaker 2: Going it alone is absolutely nuts.
Speaker 1: Okay. So there's this sort of looming disconnect between the
Speaker 1: state based agencies who actually in practice identified terror threats
Speaker 1: and then the federal government, who I suppose have the
Speaker 1: resources to act on those threats. So did you talk
Speaker 1: to the states about this, about why they won't take
Speaker 1: part in what the Commonwealth is proposing.
Speaker 3: Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: I spoke with the New South Wales Minister for Police
Speaker 2: and counter Terrorism, Yasmin Kutley, who told the Saturday Paper
Speaker 2: that the forthcoming counter terrorism strategy is a Commonwealth led
Speaker 2: strategy which all states and territories, including New South Wales,
Speaker 2: are involved in. She said, look, we all work collaboratively
Speaker 2: and will continue to do so on this very important issue.
Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, that sounds great, but I think
Speaker 2: what it really means is that this is a commonwealth strategy.
Speaker 2: That's what one government advisor who I read that quote
Speaker 2: out to told me, and that person said, this is
Speaker 2: not a national strategy because the States don't want to
Speaker 2: be part of it. They are being consulted on its development,
Speaker 2: but they have not signed on to it. And that's
Speaker 2: why this strategy will not be called a national counter
Speaker 2: terrorism strategy. It's going to have this title of being
Speaker 2: a Commonwealth counter terrorism strategy. Victoria's Minister for Police, Anthony Carbines,
Speaker 2: did not respond to requests for comment. I spoke to
Speaker 2: them quite early in the week, Minister Carbine's office, and
Speaker 2: they initially sam keen on providing a comment, but by
Speaker 2: Thursday afternoon they decided that wasn't wise.
Speaker 3: And I think it's worth noting.
Speaker 2: That almost all the state and territories are run by
Speaker 2: labor governments and the Commonwealth can't even get labor government
Speaker 2: agencies and labor governments across the line.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's telling so other than calling it a quote
Speaker 1: unquote clusterfug do you have a sense from anyone senior
Speaker 1: in the federal government about how they are thinking about
Speaker 1: this and what they might do about it.
Speaker 2: Well, because this proposal to release a catecterism strategy without
Speaker 2: the States has not yet gone to Cabinet, so there's
Speaker 2: no formal government decision yet to go down this path.
Speaker 2: A senior government official told me that it was it's
Speaker 2: quite possible that the Prime Minister and other members of
Speaker 2: Cabinet's National Security Committee remain unaware that there is a problem,
Speaker 2: or even whether Tony Burke himself was even fully up
Speaker 2: to speed with what's happening inside his department. But I
Speaker 2: think there's a big political risk here which has to
Speaker 2: be considered because if a major terrorist incident was to
Speaker 2: occur after Asio has raised the terrorism threat level from
Speaker 2: possible to probable, and this government has been found not
Speaker 2: to have put in place a proper national canterterrorism coordination strategy,
Speaker 2: then the Prime Minister Anthony Alvinezi is going to cop
Speaker 2: the blame for that from the opposition and Peter Dutton
Speaker 2: and Opposition Home Affairs spokesman James Pattison, they're going to
Speaker 2: be all over this.
Speaker 1: Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thanks Ruby, great to talk.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, advocates say they're concerned about
Speaker 1: some of the new restrictions on how NDIS participants can
Speaker 1: spend their money that have come into effect the federal
Speaker 1: government has released lists detailing what people can and can't
Speaker 1: claim with costs including rent, fertility treatments, gaming therapy and
Speaker 1: animal therapy not available. NDAs Minister Bill Shorten said the
Speaker 1: update would help return the scheme to its original purpose
Speaker 1: and ensure it wasn't paying for supports that should be
Speaker 1: covered by Australia's other care systems or shouldn't be covered
Speaker 1: at all. And Foreign Minister Penny Wong is urging Australians
Speaker 1: to take any available route out of Lebanon, with the
Speaker 1: government confirming it has secured five hundred extra seats on
Speaker 1: commercial flights for Saturday. There are estimated to be fifteen
Speaker 1: thousand Australians currently in Lebanon. The announcement comes as Israel
Speaker 1: has renewed its bombardment of the capital Beirute, with air
Speaker 1: strikes yesterday, killing at least six people. Seven Am is
Speaker 1: a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.
Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ruby Jones and Daniel James. It's
Speaker 1: produced by Shane Anderson, Zultanfetcho and Zaya Tung. Our technical
Speaker 1: producer is Atachus Bastow. We're edited by Chris Ngate and
Speaker 1: Sarah McPhee. Derek Jensen is our editor in chief. Our
Speaker 1: mixer is Travis Evans. Our theme music is by Ned
Speaker 1: Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio. That's all for
Speaker 1: this week. Thanks for listening.