WEBVTT - Exclusive: States abandon federal terrorism ‘clusterf--k’

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<v Speaker 1>So Jason this story. It's quite a scoop.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks, Ruby, It certainly is, and just one of those

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<v Speaker 2>things where someone called me said they had a story

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<v Speaker 2>they wanted to brief me about and suggested we meet

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<v Speaker 2>for a beer.

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<v Speaker 1>So we did, And so what did this source say

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<v Speaker 1>to you?

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<v Speaker 2>So what they told me is that there's been a

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<v Speaker 2>complete breakdown between the states and territories and the federal government.

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<v Speaker 2>I've a how to handle counter terrorism, which obviously is

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<v Speaker 2>a huge deal, and I was pretty blown away and

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<v Speaker 2>wondered if this really had happened, So I started digging into.

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<v Speaker 1>It from Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a greater than fifty percent chance that there'll be

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<v Speaker 1>a terrorist attack or a planned attack in Australia in

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<v Speaker 1>the next year. That's the reality behind the head of

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<v Speaker 1>Azio's decision recently to upgrade the terror threat level to probable.

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<v Speaker 1>So the need for all states and territories to be

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<v Speaker 1>working hand in hand for the federal government is greater

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<v Speaker 1>than ever. But that's not what's happening. The states and

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<v Speaker 1>territories have taken the unprecedented step of abandoning the Albanese

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<v Speaker 1>government's planned counter terrorism strategy in favor of figuring it

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<v Speaker 1>out themselves. Today, special correspondent for the Saturday paper, Jason

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<v Speaker 1>Cotsukus on why they're doing that and what it means

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<v Speaker 1>for our safety. It's Friday, October fourth, So, Jason, after

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<v Speaker 1>you got this tip about a breakdown in counter terrorism planning,

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<v Speaker 1>tell me what you discovered.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, firstly that yes, there had been a breakdown between

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<v Speaker 2>the States and the territories and the Commonwealth, and that

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<v Speaker 2>the federal government was now pursuing its own carter terrorism

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<v Speaker 2>strategy without the States and territories. This strategy has been

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<v Speaker 2>underway for the.

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<v Speaker 3>Past two years. The last one was released.

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<v Speaker 2>I think in February twenty twenty two. But given the

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<v Speaker 2>fast changing nature of the threats that we face, it's

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<v Speaker 2>really important that these carterterrorism strategies are updated to counter

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<v Speaker 2>that evolving threat. And this decision by the Commonwealth to

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<v Speaker 2>pursue its own strategy really contradicts this principle of national unity,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think senior people in the government know this

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<v Speaker 2>is a big problem. One senior Albanesi government official told

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<v Speaker 2>me that at all levels this is a classifact.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, that's a federal government official saying that to you.

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<v Speaker 1>So who is responsible then for the breakdown, the clear

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<v Speaker 1>breakdown in this working relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think for this particular strategy, government insiders are

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<v Speaker 2>pointing to the Center for counter Terrorism Coordination. This is

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<v Speaker 2>a unit within the Department of Home Affairs and they

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<v Speaker 2>described it as being ground zero for the problems surrounding

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<v Speaker 2>the development of this new strategy. The same advisor told

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<v Speaker 2>me that really there's a lack of trust in the

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<v Speaker 2>CCTC and its leadership, and it's got so bad that

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<v Speaker 2>key national security agencies such as AZO and the Australian

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<v Speaker 2>Federal Police, we're no longer exchanging the vital information with

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<v Speaker 2>the Coordination Center that is needed for it to function properly,

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<v Speaker 2>and that this lack of trust is really undermining its

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<v Speaker 2>ability to lead Australia's counter terrorism framework. Another national security

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<v Speaker 2>policy expert that I spoke to who's got very close

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<v Speaker 2>tied the government, so that making matters worse is the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that this department is really distracted by the issue

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<v Speaker 2>of immigration, that immigration is burning a hole in Home Affairs.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think another.

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<v Speaker 2>Complication here is that there are rumors of a tense

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<v Speaker 2>relationship between the head of the department and the new

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<v Speaker 2>Minister Tony Burke.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you have this center for counter Terrorism Coordination

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<v Speaker 1>that's within the Department of Home Affairs and people say

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<v Speaker 1>that it's not working as it should and then you

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<v Speaker 1>also have what seems like a breakdown in the relationship

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<v Speaker 1>between the minister and the head of the department. So

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<v Speaker 1>how important is Home Affairs and what role does it

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<v Speaker 1>play in our national security?

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<v Speaker 3>This is actually the heart of a ruby.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a big problem with Home Affairs as a

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<v Speaker 2>department right now, and that is that there is a

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<v Speaker 2>lack of trust from the Albanezy government towards this department. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>I should mention I actually worked for Clara O'Neill when

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<v Speaker 2>she was Home Affairs Minister before this reshuffle. I was

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<v Speaker 2>her media advisor for nearly two years. And while it

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<v Speaker 2>isn't really relevant to how I came to this story,

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<v Speaker 2>it did give me an insight into how that department

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<v Speaker 2>operates and how it has changed over time. So Home

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<v Speaker 2>Affairs as we know it it is basically the brainchild

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<v Speaker 2>of Mike Pizzolo. Mike Pizzolo was the longtime boss at

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<v Speaker 2>Home Affairs and he's the person who turned it into

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<v Speaker 2>this powerful ministry, encompassing ASO, the AFP, immigration and cybersecurity.

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<v Speaker 4>Policy, Australia's security agencies are getting their biggest shake up

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<v Speaker 4>in decades. The Prime Ministers announced he'll give the Immigration

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<v Speaker 4>Minister Peter Dutton a new super portfolio with responsibility for

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<v Speaker 4>Australia's spy Agency ASIO and the Federal Police but Labor.

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<v Speaker 2>He was the department head when Peter Dutton was the Minister,

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<v Speaker 2>and he had a pretty spectacular fall from grace last

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<v Speaker 2>year when it was found that he had acted improperly

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<v Speaker 2>in the role as Secretary of Home Affairs.

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<v Speaker 1>Breaking news out of camera this morning, the Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 1>has confirmed that Mike Bizzolo has been sacked from his

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<v Speaker 1>role as the Home Affairs Secretary Large atreaty MACANDALT.

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<v Speaker 2>Now Mike Bizulo has gone, Peter Dutton is gone, but

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<v Speaker 2>Labour are now in charge and they have been very

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<v Speaker 2>keen to change the shape of this department. The Attorney

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<v Speaker 2>General macdrethus in particular has been keen to lessen its power.

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<v Speaker 2>First they took the AFP out of Home Affairs and

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<v Speaker 2>put it under the control of the ag and then

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<v Speaker 2>they removed ASIO too, also putting it back in the

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<v Speaker 2>AG's portfolio. So that really just leaves immigration, cybersecurity policy

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<v Speaker 2>and national security as the big things that Home Affairs does.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think the big problem is that if you

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<v Speaker 2>are responsible for national security but you don't also have

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<v Speaker 2>oversight of AZO and the AFP, that's a recipe for

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<v Speaker 2>a communication breakdown. And you know, one of my key

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<v Speaker 2>sources for this story told me, and i'll just quote

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<v Speaker 2>this person from the point of view of the States,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a frustration with the Commonwealth and particularly Home Affairs

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<v Speaker 2>over the way this strategy has been developed, which has

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<v Speaker 2>been backwards and forwards, on again, off again, that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of thing, and I think eventually the States and territories

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<v Speaker 2>just thought, well fuck it.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break Australia's threat level and how

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<v Speaker 1>the States and territories should be working with the Commonwealth. So, Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>you've been reporting on the troubles at Home Affairs and

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<v Speaker 1>how that relates to this extraordinary decision states and territories

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<v Speaker 1>have made to essentially go their own way when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to planning for counter terrorism. This seems like it

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<v Speaker 1>could become a big problem when you take into account

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<v Speaker 1>what we're hearing from Asio about possible threats to our

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<v Speaker 1>national security.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's more important than ever for the States and

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<v Speaker 2>Commonwealth to be on the same page, especially after the

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<v Speaker 2>Director General of Security, Mike Burgess recently raised Australia's national

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<v Speaker 2>terrorism threat level from possible to probable.

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<v Speaker 5>We are seeing an increase in extremism. More Australians are

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<v Speaker 5>being radicalized and radicalized more quickly, More Australians are embracing

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<v Speaker 5>a more diverse range of extreme ideologies, and more Australians

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<v Speaker 5>are willing to use violence to advance their cause.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time, Mike Burgers said that asio's decision to

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<v Speaker 2>raise the threat level reflected the degrading security environment.

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<v Speaker 5>The threats are becoming harder to predict and identify. The

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<v Speaker 5>drivers of dalization for events, extremism are growing and interacting

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<v Speaker 5>in ways we've not seen before.

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<v Speaker 2>A threat level of probable means that, in asio's assessment,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a greater than fifty percent chance of an onshore

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<v Speaker 2>terrorist attack or terrorist attack planning occurring within the next

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<v Speaker 2>twelve months, and Mike Burgess said that we are seeing

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<v Speaker 2>increase in extremism and that more Australians are being radicalized

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<v Speaker 2>and radicalized much more quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So given that, then how should the federal government

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<v Speaker 1>and state governments be working together on this? What would

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<v Speaker 1>it look like if this was going well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a great question. And I spoke to Lydia

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<v Speaker 2>Khalil about this. She's the program director for Transnational Challenges

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<v Speaker 2>at the Lowe Institute, and she told me that while

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<v Speaker 2>it's often the case that these high level documents tend

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<v Speaker 2>to be removed from the general publics awareness, they are

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly useful for helping governments prioritize programs and spending. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>the main argument for a national counterterrorism strategy that is

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<v Speaker 2>fully inclusive of state and territory governments is based on

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that not only are state government law enforcement

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<v Speaker 2>agencies the first responders when it comes to terrorism incidents,

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<v Speaker 2>but they are crucial when it comes to identifying people

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<v Speaker 2>who are displaying worrying behavior early on in their lives,

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<v Speaker 2>whether that be through secondary schools, psychology support programs, countering

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<v Speaker 2>violent extremism programs, these are all things that are run

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<v Speaker 2>by the states, and, as a national security policy expert

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<v Speaker 2>told me, the people who are conceiving ideas linked to

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<v Speaker 2>violent extremism, who are joining these movements actually don't often

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<v Speaker 2>come to the attention of law enforcement through security processes.

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<v Speaker 2>They come to their attention through education, health and other

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<v Speaker 2>programs that are all run by the states and territories.

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<v Speaker 2>So you must be hardwired with the states and territories.

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<v Speaker 2>You cannot have a commonwealth counter terrorism strategy.

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<v Speaker 3>The notion of.

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<v Speaker 2>Going it alone is absolutely nuts.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. So there's this sort of looming disconnect between the

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<v Speaker 1>state based agencies who actually in practice identified terror threats

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<v Speaker 1>and then the federal government, who I suppose have the

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<v Speaker 1>resources to act on those threats. So did you talk

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<v Speaker 1>to the states about this, about why they won't take

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<v Speaker 1>part in what the Commonwealth is proposing.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I did.

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke with the New South Wales Minister for Police

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<v Speaker 2>and counter Terrorism, Yasmin Kutley, who told the Saturday Paper

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<v Speaker 2>that the forthcoming counter terrorism strategy is a Commonwealth led

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<v Speaker 2>strategy which all states and territories, including New South Wales,

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<v Speaker 2>are involved in. She said, look, we all work collaboratively

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<v Speaker 2>and will continue to do so on this very important issue.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think, yeah, that sounds great, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>what it really means is that this is a commonwealth strategy.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what one government advisor who I read that quote

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<v Speaker 2>out to told me, and that person said, this is

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<v Speaker 2>not a national strategy because the States don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>be part of it. They are being consulted on its development,

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<v Speaker 2>but they have not signed on to it. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>why this strategy will not be called a national counter

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<v Speaker 2>terrorism strategy. It's going to have this title of being

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<v Speaker 2>a Commonwealth counter terrorism strategy. Victoria's Minister for Police, Anthony Carbines,

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<v Speaker 2>did not respond to requests for comment. I spoke to

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<v Speaker 2>them quite early in the week, Minister Carbine's office, and

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<v Speaker 2>they initially sam keen on providing a comment, but by

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<v Speaker 2>Thursday afternoon they decided that wasn't wise.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think it's worth noting.

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<v Speaker 2>That almost all the state and territories are run by

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<v Speaker 2>labor governments and the Commonwealth can't even get labor government

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<v Speaker 2>agencies and labor governments across the line.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's telling so other than calling it a quote

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<v Speaker 1>unquote clusterfug do you have a sense from anyone senior

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<v Speaker 1>in the federal government about how they are thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>this and what they might do about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, because this proposal to release a catecterism strategy without

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<v Speaker 2>the States has not yet gone to Cabinet, so there's

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<v Speaker 2>no formal government decision yet to go down this path.

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<v Speaker 2>A senior government official told me that it was it's

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<v Speaker 2>quite possible that the Prime Minister and other members of

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<v Speaker 2>Cabinet's National Security Committee remain unaware that there is a problem,

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<v Speaker 2>or even whether Tony Burke himself was even fully up

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<v Speaker 2>to speed with what's happening inside his department. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think there's a big political risk here which has to

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<v Speaker 2>be considered because if a major terrorist incident was to

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<v Speaker 2>occur after Asio has raised the terrorism threat level from

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<v Speaker 2>possible to probable, and this government has been found not

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<v Speaker 2>to have put in place a proper national canterterrorism coordination strategy,

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<v Speaker 2>then the Prime Minister Anthony Alvinezi is going to cop

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<v Speaker 2>the blame for that from the opposition and Peter Dutton

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<v Speaker 2>and Opposition Home Affairs spokesman James Pattison, they're going to

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<v Speaker 2>be all over this.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks Ruby, great to talk.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, advocates say they're concerned about

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<v Speaker 1>some of the new restrictions on how NDIS participants can

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<v Speaker 1>spend their money that have come into effect the federal

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<v Speaker 1>government has released lists detailing what people can and can't

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<v Speaker 1>claim with costs including rent, fertility treatments, gaming therapy and

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<v Speaker 1>animal therapy not available. NDAs Minister Bill Shorten said the

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<v Speaker 1>update would help return the scheme to its original purpose

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<v Speaker 1>and ensure it wasn't paying for supports that should be

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<v Speaker 1>covered by Australia's other care systems or shouldn't be covered

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<v Speaker 1>at all. And Foreign Minister Penny Wong is urging Australians

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<v Speaker 1>to take any available route out of Lebanon, with the

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<v Speaker 1>government confirming it has secured five hundred extra seats on

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<v Speaker 1>commercial flights for Saturday. There are estimated to be fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>thousand Australians currently in Lebanon. The announcement comes as Israel

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<v Speaker 1>has renewed its bombardment of the capital Beirute, with air

0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:50.000
<v Speaker 1>strikes yesterday, killing at least six people. Seven Am is

0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.880
<v Speaker 1>a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.

0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 1>It's hosted by me Ruby Jones and Daniel James. It's

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<v Speaker 1>produced by Shane Anderson, Zultanfetcho and Zaya Tung. Our technical

0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.080
<v Speaker 1>producer is Atachus Bastow. We're edited by Chris Ngate and

0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 1>Sarah McPhee. Derek Jensen is our editor in chief. Our

0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 1>mixer is Travis Evans. Our theme music is by Ned

0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio. That's all for

0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:16.440
<v Speaker 1>this week. Thanks for listening.