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Speaker 1: It frees you to instead think about how something feels.

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Speaker 1: That's all that life is an experience. You don't even

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Speaker 1: know how much you've got, so you might as well

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Speaker 1: see if you can notice your life as it's happening

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Speaker 1: in the moment, and instead of pursuing something that is

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Speaker 1: essentially impossible, it frees you to ask yourself, why does

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Speaker 1: this matter to me? What does it make me feel?

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the show. This is Better than Yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Useful tools and useful conversations to make your day to

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Speaker 2: day better than yesterday. Every episode since twenty thirteen. Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for being here. My name Zolshi Ginsberg.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you made it. I do have a question

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Speaker 2: for you, fairly simple question. Can you sing now? Maybe

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Speaker 2: because when I ask that question, you think, oh, look,

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Speaker 2: I can't hit the high bits in the Mariah Carey

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Speaker 2: song at Christmas. I don't sound, you know, like Bernard

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Speaker 2: Fanning does. I don't feel that. I don't hear that

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Speaker 2: pain in my voice when I talk about how these days,

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Speaker 2: I think like i'd planned. So when you ask me

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Speaker 2: can I think no, I can't sing. But hang on,

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Speaker 2: I did not ask you if you could sing well,

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Speaker 2: if you can speak, you can sing, and a story.

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Speaker 2: After all, talking is just very monotone. Singing Okay, this

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Speaker 2: is talking, Okay, this is now talking. Okay, this is singing.

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Speaker 2: It's the same muscles do all of it. If you

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Speaker 2: can talk, you can sing. We're like this with a

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Speaker 2: lot of things. We have a tendency just to think

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Speaker 2: because we can't do it perfectly, we can't do it

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Speaker 2: at all, so we don't even try. And that reveals

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Speaker 2: something about the way we think about ourselves, doesn't it. Well,

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Speaker 2: what could we go? And if we let go of

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Speaker 2: that just a little bit. I don't think there's any

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Speaker 2: person that is better to speak to about this concept

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Speaker 2: than my guest today. Astro Joginsen is known for leading

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Speaker 2: and pioneering something called pub choir. Basically, Astrod stands in

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Speaker 2: front of a group of people anywhere between seventeen and

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Speaker 2: several thousand people and uses some slides that she shows

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Speaker 2: a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of comedy, and in

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Speaker 2: less than one hour has that entire group of people

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Speaker 2: singing a song together at the top of their lungs

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Speaker 2: in harmony. This idea has taken her right around the world.

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Speaker 2: It's earned her the praise of stars like Kate bush Kiss,

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Speaker 2: the aforementioned of Boria Carey, and she's raised hundreds of

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars for charity. She's earned herself the Order of

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Speaker 2: Australian Medal. She did that in twenty twenty three. Not

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Speaker 2: long ago, Astrod was on America's Got Talent. That clip

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Speaker 2: has been viewed by squillions of people. She was feeding

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Speaker 2: on Australian Story and she now has a memoir called

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Speaker 2: Average at Best, and it's a really wonderful idea about

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Speaker 2: you know what this is. This is just fine as

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Speaker 2: it is, It's wonderful. She's a fabulous person. Today we're

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Speaker 2: going to speak about her journey, the way she looks

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Speaker 2: at life, the struggles she's had with perfectionism, the cost

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Speaker 2: of that, and all that we can gain by accepting

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Speaker 2: or even embracing our averageness. It's a brilliant chat. It's

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Speaker 2: going to make you want to sing, and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get to it right after this break. Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for listening to the show. This is better

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Speaker 2: than yesterday. We're about to get stuck into my chat

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Speaker 2: with Astrod Jorgensen. Just a heads up. Astrod's magnificent journey

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Speaker 2: does include a period of disordered eating, and we discussed

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Speaker 2: that today. We're going to talk about that about twenty

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Speaker 2: five minutes or so from now. So do you go

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Speaker 2: carefully around that if you need to, if there's a

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Speaker 2: need in you as well, to get some support or

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Speaker 2: some more information about that sort of thing for yourself,

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Speaker 2: for someone you care about. Get in touch with the

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Speaker 2: people at the Butterfly Foundation that do brilliant work Butterfly

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Speaker 2: dot org dot au or one eight hundred double three

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Speaker 2: four six seven three. Enjoy getting to know and I

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Speaker 2: can't wait to hear what you're seeing after you listen

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Speaker 2: to the wonderful Astrad Jorgensen. Thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 2: You've had it early morning.

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Speaker 1: I mean a pleasure. I love to talk about myself.

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Speaker 1: Really it's like my only expert topic.

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Speaker 2: So it's a delight to have you here. I love

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Speaker 2: I love the work that you do. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: grew up a musician. I've always I've always played voice song.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's just something about that thing which happens

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Speaker 2: on stage that I chased forever and it ended me

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Speaker 2: up in my career because like, I just want to

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Speaker 2: chase this and reading your story, I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I get that.

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Speaker 1: You know, then, the difference between the feeling that you

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Speaker 1: get when you listen to music and the feeling that

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Speaker 1: you get when you make music, they're so different, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of people don't know that. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people listen to music and it fills them up and

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Speaker 1: they form memories and friends, and that's all brilliant that

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Speaker 1: I also do that, but I'm trying to offer people

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Speaker 1: the different feeling, which is what would it feel like

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Speaker 1: if you were the singer. And it is such a

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Speaker 1: vast chasm between those two things, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: important that we try.

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Speaker 2: Much like painting or drawing, for example, when we're little,

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Speaker 2: we don't give two shits at all. Look spaceship and

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Speaker 2: you look at it and go.

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Speaker 1: Yep, well I love it.

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Speaker 2: It's terrible, but they go there. It is there is

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Speaker 2: my idea in graphic form, and they don't care, and

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Speaker 2: they fearlessly go to it. And somewhere along the way

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Speaker 2: either they look to the side and see someone else

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Speaker 2: and go, o, mind's not as good as that. So

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Speaker 2: they even tell themselves I can't do it, or someone

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Speaker 2: says that shit, but it's not as good, and then

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Speaker 2: they don't ever touch crayon again. And this in many

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Speaker 2: ways it's the same with singing. Like at daycare there's

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Speaker 2: no kid, he goes, I, no, I can't sing. I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to do this. No, hun shut them, don't

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Speaker 2: get a ship.

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Speaker 1: They're right yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: And somewhere along the way is kids. We go, oh,

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Speaker 2: I can't do that. Yes, And it's a really heartbreaking moment.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it It is? And I am convinced that everyone's

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Speaker 1: had it at least once, Like I have always been

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Speaker 1: able to sing pretty well in tune. I've had singing lessons,

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Speaker 1: but I've sung it. It's impossible to sing in tune

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Speaker 1: all the time. And so when it happens and people

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Speaker 1: pointed out to you, it feels so big because you

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Speaker 1: always yeah, when you when you miss the note or

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Speaker 1: you have a little local crack or whatever it happens,

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Speaker 1: you were the one who made the noise. So it

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Speaker 1: actually feels so personal. Like I've also had piano lessons, say,

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Speaker 1: and when you play the wrong keys, I mean I'll

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Speaker 1: just look at the key and be like, oh I missed,

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Speaker 1: But when you sing the wrong thing, it was very

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Speaker 1: it was internal only you were in control of all

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Speaker 1: of the minuteness of that, and so it's so personal.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing else to blame except you. So I think

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Speaker 1: when people laugh at your singing voice, that's why it

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Speaker 1: settles so deeply in your soul, because you did the

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Speaker 1: wrong thing. But I'm trying to say, it's not illegal

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Speaker 1: to sing out of tune. It's okay if you enjoy singing.

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Speaker 1: I cannot really help anyone sing better. I don't think

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Speaker 1: no one who comes to my show leaves as a

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Speaker 1: better singer. I just want them to free themselves of

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Speaker 1: the heaviness of the shame of singing. It's allowed if

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Speaker 1: you have a nice time singing, that's a great reason

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Speaker 1: to start.

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Speaker 2: Just because I'm like goutgout doesn't mean, ohka, I'm never

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Speaker 2: ever going to try and run.

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Speaker 1: And because you have run in your life at some point,

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Speaker 1: you have context for admiring goutgout. You're like, I tried

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Speaker 1: running two hundred meters, and I mean it would take

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Speaker 1: me like over a minute or something. Would I would

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Speaker 1: glumph at It's such a long way. I don't even

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Speaker 1: know if I'd make it. But because I've tried it,

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Speaker 1: when I see someone excelling. I think, shit, that's incredible.

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Speaker 1: I had tennis lessons for like one term at school.

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Speaker 2: I just on your parents, piano, tennis, whatever you want

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Speaker 2: to explore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like wall, he's so bad at everything, let's

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Speaker 1: keep looking important that. Yeah. I mean like I would

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Speaker 1: hold the tennis racket and I'd be like it's so heavy,

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Speaker 1: even just a hole, Like how am I supposed to

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Speaker 1: hit the ball back? Because I've tried that. And I

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Speaker 1: played one competition and I didn't score a single point.

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Speaker 1: And I remember so clearly. I lost every single every

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Speaker 1: single thing. And the other girl and they had one arm.

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Speaker 1: Now that's not the butt of the joke, but it's

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Speaker 1: just like, this is this was my level that I

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Speaker 1: was at. I was like two handing everything, missing every

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Speaker 1: single ball. But now I love to watch tennis because

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Speaker 1: I have some context. Like I deeply hope that the

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Speaker 1: experience that I'm offering people, but at any choir or whatever,

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Speaker 1: any art making, it gives context to life. Like if

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Speaker 1: people come to the show, try a little singing, have

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Speaker 1: a nice time, it might help them appreciate the incredible

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Speaker 1: art that's around us, the richness of music that is

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Speaker 1: like woven in all of our lives. I think context

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Speaker 1: is everything.

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Speaker 2: We deny ourselves permission to do this thing that we

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Speaker 2: are born with the ability to do, and this thing

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Speaker 2: which has been scientifically proven to give us so much.

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Speaker 2: We're shutting ourselves off from this thing, and I find

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Speaker 2: that just kind of sad.

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Speaker 1: It's so sad because it's so easy to do, Like

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Speaker 1: it's hard to do well, but that's the same with

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Speaker 1: all things. It's like not a birthright to be brilliant

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Speaker 1: at something, but it's so so easy to start singing,

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Speaker 1: open your face, push out a noise, like you know,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be complicated. And there has never

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Speaker 1: been a human culture ever observed historically, bones whatever, archaeologically

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Speaker 1: that hasn't had music like this is so primal for us.

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Speaker 1: It's so right that we should do this, And it's

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Speaker 1: so equalizing. You know, you simply cannot be an acquir

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Speaker 1: by yourself. You must collaborate with other people in order

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Speaker 1: to get that sound that only we can create, and

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Speaker 1: then we all get to share in the result at

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Speaker 1: the end. Like it's just so ubiquitous, it's so equalizing,

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Speaker 1: it's so everything. I don't know. I'm obsessed with quiet no.

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Speaker 2: I'm here with it. I'm here for you because I'm

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Speaker 2: also I also think a lot about how a community

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Speaker 2: is the only reason that we survived. So it makes

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Speaker 2: sense to me that this thing sounds so good and

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Speaker 2: feels so good when we do it together. And I'm

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Speaker 2: fascinated with the research around what happens to us when

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Speaker 2: we sing and when we move in Unison, these things

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Speaker 2: have been systemaized through religious practices and various cultural practices,

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Speaker 2: but we don't have to be in those places to

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Speaker 2: access that. And so I understand why when I was

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Speaker 2: a kid and I went to I know you have

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Speaker 2: a story to do with you know, a certain nazarreiin Feller,

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Speaker 2: you know, influencing your life. But when I was a kid,

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Speaker 2: I got to play in bands every week. It happened

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Speaker 2: to be Jesus songs. But I was like, fuck it,

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Speaker 2: all right, older this because I get to play bass,

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Speaker 2: This is cool, and I get to sing songs, and

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Speaker 2: he's going to have to do a guitar solo and

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Speaker 2: it's gonna be awesome. But I was never into really that.

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Speaker 2: It was more like, I just love the way it

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Speaker 2: felt when we were all playing together and everyone was

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Speaker 2: singing together.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I relate very deeply to.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is what I found upon your ball. You know,

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Speaker 2: when your kids are teenagers, they tell you some interesting

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Speaker 2: things like this is what you want to do when

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Speaker 2: you want to support them, You go, okay, if that's

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Speaker 2: what you want to do. Tell me about the I'm

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Speaker 2: moving to Africa to becoming nun. Well.

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Speaker 1: The crazy thing is I didn't even tell my parents

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Speaker 1: I was going to do that. I just took it

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Speaker 1: upon myself. I said, how did you even find out

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Speaker 1: you couldn't?

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Speaker 2: Like, at what point did you go com that's it.

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Speaker 2: Don't want to be a supercar driver. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to go, you know, be a graphic designer. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to go to Africa.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it was pretty wild of me. There

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Speaker 1: was some context that I have an auntie who lived

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Speaker 1: in Zambia for twenty years and who is a nun.

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Speaker 1: So there's a nun in the family, and she looks

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Speaker 1: almost identical to my mum, but she's like the happy

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Speaker 1: version because she didn't have all these five goblin children

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Speaker 1: to look after, so she was, you know, like she

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Speaker 1: smiled like a lot more than my mom. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, my.

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Speaker 2: God, she's had a sleep. Yeah, she's not being pested.

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Speaker 2: Can I want you use you on your phone? Like

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Speaker 2: that's why.

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Speaker 1: It's so quiet in the convent. So she was Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she looked really stoked, and I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I want to I want whatever. I'll have what she's

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Speaker 1: having or not having, you know what I mean. But like.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me of a very poor, very poor taste.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I dare say it. I know

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Speaker 2: we're talking about your auntie here. What do you call

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Speaker 2: a nun who's had sex?

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Speaker 1: Holy?

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Speaker 2: Some?

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Speaker 1: I also thought holy was good, but sounds good. Sorry, Auntie,

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Speaker 1: she's not listening to Skye. She lives in a convent

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Speaker 1: in Africa.

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Speaker 2: You know what, she's Christian. She'll forgive me.

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Speaker 1: It's all working out well. I mean, I would see

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Speaker 1: her and I would think, like, I want to do

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Speaker 1: whatever she's doing. And exactly as you just said, my

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Speaker 1: childhood was infused with music at church, and so once

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Speaker 1: a week I would get this incredible feeling of like

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Speaker 1: connectedness and spiritual revelation. And I attributed that to Jesus.

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Speaker 1: But it took me a really long time to extract

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Speaker 1: the two things and realize that I was obsessed with music,

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Speaker 1: Like music is my spiritual revelation into.

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Speaker 2: Those because when I did a show called Australian Idol,

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Speaker 2: which was a singing show, a lot of the people

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Speaker 2: from that ended up in the show. I mean, where

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Speaker 2: also you going to get the experience to sing in

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Speaker 2: front of five thousand people every weekend who scream and

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Speaker 2: shout and call your name accept at those giant megaplaces

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Speaker 2: out west.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, you can go to pob Choir because well.

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Speaker 2: But so I would go out to these, you know,

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Speaker 2: I would occaional. We were doing backstories and stuff, so

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Speaker 2: I'd go there, I'd stand there, but I remembers standing

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Speaker 2: there going well, fuck of course, with that core change

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Speaker 2: and that key change and with that harmony, how could

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Speaker 2: you not be elated right out? I've got goosebumps. But

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Speaker 2: I'll get goosebumps in a Celindion song. All right, So

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Speaker 2: you're hacking this thing that my body does in response

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Speaker 2: to metrical vibrations of air and telling me it's Jesus,

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Speaker 2: But it isn't. It's just a really fucking great cadence. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like the music has always been so deep in

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Speaker 1: my soul that just hearing, especially when I went to

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Speaker 1: Zambia and I heard my first Zambian church service. It

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Speaker 1: was like the most incredible music I have. I'm getting

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Speaker 1: goosebumps now. It was it was like life shatteringly incredible.

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Speaker 1: Like I was like, I'm obsessed with this. I would

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Speaker 1: like to live in this place, in this convent and

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Speaker 1: see this every day. But I have eventually learned to

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Speaker 1: extract the two feelings. I worship communal music making, but

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to me A lot of people, not a lot,

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Speaker 1: but you know, fairly regularly people will ask if pub

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Speaker 1: choir is affiliated with the religion, because so many of

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Speaker 1: us just associate beautiful communal experiences. We've only seen that

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Speaker 1: in churches. But I am trying to make the case

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Speaker 1: that this is for everyone, Like we do not have

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Speaker 1: No one's got a monopoly on singing together and waving

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Speaker 1: your arms to the music, Like I want to clap

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Speaker 1: my hands and be wholesome and joyful because I like

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Speaker 1: the feeling of it, and it doesn't need to be

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Speaker 1: connected to another being. You can do whatever you want

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Speaker 1: in your own head about it. But I want to

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Speaker 1: free us from attributing music only to certain parts of

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Speaker 1: life only certain people can have this in certain situations.

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Speaker 1: No music is just for everyone whenever you want, Like,

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Speaker 1: don't do it all the time. It'd probably be annoying,

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Speaker 1: but like you know, it doesn't belong to anyone to

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Speaker 1: keep it's ours.

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Speaker 2: What was it like being in a community where singing

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Speaker 2: and to a large part dancing is just a part

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Speaker 2: of how you celebrate.

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Speaker 1: I had never experienced music making in this way until

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Speaker 1: I arrived when I was sixteen in Zambia. Because I

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Speaker 1: had lots of music lessons as a kid. I was

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Speaker 1: in lots of competitive arenas, I was in the Stedfords

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Speaker 1: and sitting for exams. Everything had a metric of measurement involved,

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Speaker 1: and so I didn't understand that you could make music

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Speaker 1: because it was an expression of something that words could

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Speaker 1: not say, or a feeling shared between people of joy

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Speaker 1: for someone else, you know, and so seeing I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was not only that, but I was so musically outclassed.

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Speaker 1: Like you can have all the music lessons in the world,

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Speaker 1: but you can you can never keep up with unless

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Speaker 1: you were raised in this culture of singing in this way.

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Speaker 1: Like I remember looking around the church, I couldn't even

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Speaker 1: find that Like time signature. I was like, what are

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Speaker 1: we in thirty one two? Like, I just somewhat what

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Speaker 1: time signature? Everyone is moving to a different song to

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Speaker 1: the one they're singing, Everyone's clapping on sevens, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what's going on with you? I just had

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Speaker 1: to receive. And I had never just sat back like

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Speaker 1: that and realized that music is an experience. Well it

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Speaker 1: can be an experience. And I really think it shifted

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Speaker 1: something in my brain because I just I think that's

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Speaker 1: what I had always been looking for but didn't know

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Speaker 1: how to articulate, or didn't even know to look for

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Speaker 1: until I saw it.

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Speaker 2: What did it feel like when you had made that

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Speaker 2: distinction within you? This thing which you had been shedding

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Speaker 2: with Jesus wasn't actually that? And how did that? You know,

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Speaker 2: that's a big spiritual thing to deal with at six stage,

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Speaker 2: seventeen years old.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going through it. I mean, I met

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Speaker 1: a boy, to be fair, and I guess what changed

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Speaker 1: for me was I really had the hots for this

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Speaker 1: guy at Uni, and yet I still felt as passionate

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Speaker 1: about the music and the communal feeling. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: isn't that strange that it hasn't diminished at all this

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Speaker 1: feeling that I have even though I'm like foresure falling

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Speaker 1: in love with someone in the human realm when you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to be in love with Jesus. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: how could these things coexist? And then and it slowly began,

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Speaker 1: I realized I had correlated two things together, but they

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00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,919
Speaker 1: were not actually causing each other. So, you know, I

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Speaker 1: pursued this relationship and I was like, the earthly form

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Speaker 1: is much more exciting to me, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: And then I was also still studying music, and that

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Speaker 1: love was still growing. And I also I did have

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Speaker 1: like quite a serious conversation with myself after I reached

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Speaker 1: out to the nuns of the same chapter from Zambia.

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Speaker 1: In Australia, they have some in Bendigo, and I reached

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Speaker 1: out to the Franciscan Missionaries of the Divine Motherhood FMDM

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Speaker 1: on the streets and I wrote an email saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I've just spent time for two months in this convent.

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Speaker 1: I really want to pursue this, and she that the

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Speaker 1: head none there was like, I really think that sixteen

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Speaker 1: is quite young and you should maybe live your life

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Speaker 1: just like a tiny bit just like come back, like

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Speaker 1: go to Uni or do something come back to me

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Speaker 1: in a few years, And that was very wise, thank goodness,

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Speaker 1: and so I did do that. And it was through living.

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Speaker 1: It was through the context of my own life that

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Speaker 1: I realized how things made sense.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about where you are now with your spirituality,

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Speaker 2: things like that.

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Speaker 1: I almost think that attributing the unfathomable miracle of our

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Speaker 1: existence to a preconceived notion or like higher being takes

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Speaker 1: away the majesty of our existence. I almost feel like

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Speaker 1: the chaos is the most mystical version of this. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like when you make music, that is the

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Speaker 1: truest expression of worshiping the magnificence of being alive. Because

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Speaker 1: I have really come to believe that making music helps

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Speaker 1: you shift from the person who admires art to becoming

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Speaker 1: the artist. You are the creator. And then I think

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Speaker 1: there might be a temptation to be like, well, something

386
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Speaker 1: so incredible and so mystical must be a creation. But

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Speaker 1: I'm like, well, then what if God or a being

388
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Speaker 1: put their hands in the pie and made this happen

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Speaker 1: so that you and I would harmonize something together? Why

390
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Speaker 1: is God such a bully? In other ways, I just

391
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Speaker 1: think the incredibleness is in the chaos, and I've written

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Speaker 1: a book about it. No, it's not that philosophical if

393
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Speaker 1: I'm being honest, because like, you know, shit myself in

394
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Speaker 1: the book or whatever. But like the idea that this

395
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Speaker 1: all counts now. Yeah, Like I'm really starting to dig

396
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Speaker 1: my fingers into the idea that this this is heaven

397
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Speaker 1: right now like on Earth, depending on what you're doing,

398
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Speaker 1: This is what we have, This is all we have.

399
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Speaker 1: We just have the experience of being alive this one time,

400
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Speaker 1: and it is an unfathomable miracle to be able to

401
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Speaker 1: sing about it, even shittaly.

402
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I could talk a lot. I'm real into

403
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,120
Speaker 2: this kind of so good you have a podcast then, yeah,

404
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 2: because it helps me when i'm if I'm having a

405
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Speaker 2: tricky time, because music is a time machine. David Lee Roth,

406
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 2: who used to sing in Van Halen. Not everything he

407
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 2: says is amazing, but he says some pretty amazing things.

408
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Speaker 2: He had this idea that whatever, whenever you get in

409
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Speaker 2: your car, just have a song that plays every month

410
00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 2: that you have your life. Just have one song you

411
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Speaker 2: listen to at one point in the day every day

412
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Speaker 2: and then move on and then move to the next song,

413
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Speaker 2: because what you're doing then is you're compartmentalizing, You're putting

414
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Speaker 2: a time machine, You're putting little chapters in your life,

415
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Speaker 2: and when you hear that song, bam, you get transported back.

416
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Speaker 2: And that's what music does to us. We can hear

417
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Speaker 2: a song again and I'm fucking nerd man, and I

418
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,919
Speaker 2: will listen to a song I haven't heard in forever,

419
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Speaker 2: and I will know every note of the guitar solo

420
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Speaker 2: and I haven't heard it in thirty one years. Music

421
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 2: can do that for us, and it is a beautiful

422
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Speaker 2: freaking thing. So I use I use music a lot

423
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Speaker 2: to help me get in and out of If I'm

424
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Speaker 2: having a funk, bad funky time, not a good funky time,

425
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Speaker 2: I will put on something that I've listened to at

426
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Speaker 2: a time, which is great, and it will help me

427
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Speaker 2: get there. And that's a really important thing for us

428
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Speaker 2: to have.

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Speaker 1: Well that's exactly I mean, I agree, because I even

430
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Speaker 1: I put in my book that people ask me a

431
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Speaker 1: lot what my favorite song is, and I'm like, it's

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Speaker 1: an impossible question, because no song is the right song

433
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 1: all the time. You go into your pharmacy of songs

434
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,160
Speaker 1: and you select the song need for your ailment. That's

435
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying. It's like, I'm tired. I need

436
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 1: this song that I know will lift me up, because

437
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 1: that's what it's always done for me. Like, whatever you need,

438
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 1: there is a song that can provide. It's always changing.

439
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like it's hard to think of any

440
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 1: other thing that gets us together so quickly and to

441
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: agree on something like you know, the sound of any choir,

442
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: but a pub choir. The show, it's the sound of

443
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,360
Speaker 1: people agreeing on a shared goal.

444
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

445
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the sound of people collaborating for a three

446
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: minute idea.

447
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: Just a quick break from Astrid to say that's so

448
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 2: what now? What? The new book, my second book is

449
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: out right now. You can get the link in the

450
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: show notes and as well as that, we have a

451
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 2: live show this weekend in Sydney. We're doing a live show.

452
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 2: Story Club is Back, featuring the wonderful Jenfricker, Lucy Bloom

453
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 2: cam Walker who co wrote my book with me Emman

454
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: Naciti and Zoe Norton Lodge. A theme is the big reveal,

455
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 2: and I think my story is going to be somewhat

456
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: about the rocky or a picture show. But you'll have

457
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: to come along to find out, because this might be

458
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: another one that never makes the show, never makes the publisher.

459
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,439
Speaker 2: I may never put this one on YouTube. There's a

460
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 2: couple that I don't, and that's there's something that you

461
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 2: just have to be in the room for. Tickets are

462
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: in the show outs for that as well. Back with

463
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: more from Astro at a moment for someone who's experienced

464
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 2: the pursuit of perfection in the competition space. As you mentioned,

465
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 2: whether it be was it was it like I don't know,

466
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: ameb or whatever. Piano.

467
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did piano and violin exams like all Asian children,

468
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: and I actually the whole time wanted singing lessons, but

469
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,880
Speaker 1: that didn't seem intellectual enough because too mystical you can't

470
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 1: see the instrument. So I ended up paying for those

471
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: as an adult. But I had violin and piano lessons

472
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: sponsored by my grandmother in Singapore. Yeah, and I also

473
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: did speech and drama instead, which is basically competitive reading

474
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: out loud.

475
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: I've done that, Oh yeah, well, and truly that's prettical.

476
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: And so you've been in this competitive environment. Perfection is

477
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 2: really a thing that we want that you're being told,

478
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: is that's what you're looking for?

479
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it always feels better to win than

480
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: to lose, right, Yeah, it feels good to get it.

481
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 1: Once you get an A plus, you're like, oh my god,

482
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: that feels so much better than an as That was

483
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: the very Asian of me. I feel like, once you

484
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 1: taste a little bit of success, of course you want that.

485
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: It's a better outcome than losing, being a loser of something. However,

486
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: best in itself suggests that it's rare. How can best

487
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: exist without everything else not being the best? And so

488
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: it becomes this impossible task because we are upset with

489
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: ourselves all the time for not being the best. But

490
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest, there's like billions of people

491
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: in the world. Is if you're going to be the

492
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: best in anything? I mean, and even if you are, like,

493
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: what about everything else? I'm such an idiot in so

494
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: many ways. I think that I have become the best

495
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: at one thing, sliver flver of my life, but everything

496
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: else is so deeply average mediocre. I just the pursuit

497
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 1: of best is impossible. I want to be done with it.

498
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: I'm not it's so hard to shake in your mind,

499
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: but I know everyone, we're all like disappointed in ourselves,

500
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: not being the best all the time. You just can't

501
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: unless we let it go, we will only set ourselves

502
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: up for misery.

503
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: When did you come to accept average into your life?

504
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: It's so it's so strange. I think it was pub Choir.

505
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: It's weird because I am the only person who can't

506
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: go to the show because I'm doing it, And so

507
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: I watch pub choir the experience. I facilitate it for others,

508
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: and I watch thousands of people at a time have

509
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: this huge, like conversion moment where they had transformed from

510
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 1: the audience to the performers. They feel so incredible. And

511
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: the whole time I was at work and I was teaching,

512
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,479
Speaker 1: and so I watched that happen, and I think, oh,

513
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: looks good, and I've heard good things. I wish I

514
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: could go. I can't. But in a strange way, the

515
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: message that I say at the show has kind of

516
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: started to become important for me. I've started to believe

517
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: my own shtick, which is, like I say to the audience,

518
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you miss the note. Someone near

519
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: you was clever. They've got it. We'll figure it out together.

520
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: Saying these things to me on stage. It's like my

521
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: own therapy for two hours at a time at every show.

522
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: It's almost like I'm not sure if I fully believed

523
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: it at the beginning, but every time I do the show,

524
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: it's like collecting little confidence in my backpack and I

525
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: bring that on stage with me, and I kind of

526
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: think like this has always worked. I think that we

527
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: can achieve this together. And it's like proving myself right

528
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: to myself every time. And I think it's happened so

529
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: many times now that I actually believe it.

530
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 2: What can we gave from accepting our averageness?

531
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: We free yourself because of course your average I mean,

532
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: just think of I think that's shit. You are at

533
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: everything you know like it just doesn't matter. I think

534
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: it frees you to instead think about how something feels.

535
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: That's all that life is an experience. You don't even

536
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: know how much you've got, so you might as well

537
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: see if you can notice your life as it's happening

538
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: in the moment, and instead of pursuing something that is

539
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: essentially impossible and certainly impossible for all aspects of your life.

540
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: You can't be the best person that doesn't exist there's

541
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: no such thing. It frees you to ask yourself, how

542
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: does this why does this matter to me? What does

543
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: it make me feel? What is the purpose of this

544
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,719
Speaker 1: thing in my life? Why am I doing? You know?

545
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: Like if you pick up a paint brush and you

546
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: paint something awfully and it doesn't look like anything like

547
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: what you hoped it would look like, ask yourself, did

548
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: I enjoy this experience? Why am I doing this? Not?

549
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: Did I win the Archibald Prize. It's not going to

550
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: happen for one person every year it happens, But for

551
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: everyone else, why are you making this art? And I

552
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 1: think it helps us become more become more pret with

553
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: who we are and how we feel. I know, for

554
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,239
Speaker 1: me personally, being present and asking myself that question and

555
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: like re entering my body and with my brain all

556
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: intact has changed my life. I mean, I used to

557
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: suffer with a terrible eating disorder where I feel like

558
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: I lost the connection with the experience of my own existence.

559
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: I would sort of I lost sense of my own hunger,

560
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: I lost sense of my own fullness. The only thing

561
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: that helped me get through that was finding a way

562
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: to be present again in my own body. Listening to

563
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: the cues that I have, trying to understand. Am I

564
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: hungry and my fool? Does it taste good? Do I

565
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: want more? What's going on? This? I feel like is

566
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: kind of the goal for me in all of the

567
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: things that I do, singing, pubchoir, driving, cooking, whatever. It's like,

568
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: how does this feel for me? Why am I doing this?

569
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: And is there a version of this that can assist

570
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: me experience my life more fully? Know?

571
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: Would you be okay to tell me a little bit

572
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: more about that I've do, I put this, I've had

573
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: experience in this area. It might for some people, it

574
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: might be it might be impossible to conceive that you

575
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: cannot feel your own body or your own hunger. How

576
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: does that? How does that start to show up? And

577
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: what was it that someone helped you with to how

578
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: do you start to reconnect with that?

579
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen at one moment. You don't just wake

580
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: up and be like, oh, fuck up my life today?

581
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: Like you know, it's an accumulation of so many things.

582
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: But I know that I became aware of the perception

583
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: of my body from others. So I think I was

584
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: just coasting along and then suddenly started to become aware

585
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,719
Speaker 1: that maybe I was being compared with other people at

586
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: school and I wasn't as pretty, or my body is

587
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: not as nice as somebody else's. You realize that we're

588
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: being We're suddenly in a competition, which is so ridiculous,

589
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: but you know, it's reality that this is how we

590
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: treat each other visually. And so I think I started

591
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: to collect that interest in my mind, being like, oh, okay,

592
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: in the rankings, I'm here and I'm down the bottom

593
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: or whatever. Slowly it starts to accumulates as a worry.

594
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, what am I going to do about this?

595
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: I know that I'm not doing well. You know, no

596
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: one says I'm beautiful, no one says my body's nice.

597
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I went to an all girls school, so

598
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: it was you know, the whole time. But yeah, but

599
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: what really it was, what tipped it over into physical

600
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: actions to hurt myself was when I did go to

601
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: Zambia to live in the convent. I had a really

602
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: different lifestyle for two months, living like an actual life

603
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: of poverty and so like at school, I would eat

604
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: like pastry as soon as I got home. I had

605
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: a job at McDonald's. You know, I was like living

606
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: the good life.

607
00:30:58,840 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: I was.

608
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: I was having a lovely time, but I was stressed

609
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: about the way I looked. But when I went to Zambia,

610
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: I lost heaps of weight in two months. I was

611
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: walking every day, I was eating guabra, I was praying

612
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: for like six hours a day. I came back in

613
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: a smaller body, and you wouldn't believe, but every single

614
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: person I think I've ever met said you look so

615
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: beautiful now. Wow, right, and that I know that people

616
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: mean well. I think sometimes maybe they wanted to say,

617
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: are you eating healthier or looks like you've been exercising

618
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: or something, But everyone said you look beautiful now. And

619
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: so this just confirmed my suspicions that I had been

620
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 1: building and building and building, that I wasn't ugly, I

621
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: was in the wrong shape. Because everyone said, well, you're

622
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: beautiful now, I had the same face. So I think

623
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: that just tipped me over the edge. And all I

624
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: could think about was like, I cannot go back to

625
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: being more visible because it makes you invisible to others,

626
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: so which is not true, but that's how people would behaving.

627
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: And so I put my fingers down my throat. I

628
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: just didn't know what else to do, Like I need food.

629
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: We need food to live. The crazy thing about an

630
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: eating disorder is that there's no escape. Like I know

631
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: that you've you've already mentioned, you know, like battles with alcoholism,

632
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: you don't need alcohol to survive.

633
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: Literally, Yeah, food's really hard one. I've had a guy

634
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: who was a food addict on the show. Yeah, and

635
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: that's a really, really hard one because you actually need

636
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: food to sport.

637
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 1: You have to confront the thing that you're scared of

638
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: three times a day. At least it.

639
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,719
Speaker 2: Must have been, you know, obviously very hard for your

640
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: siblings and your parents.

641
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:36,959
Speaker 1: I didn't tell anyone.

642
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, they fucking know what's going on there.

643
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: I just don't know because there's so many children in

644
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: my family's so much.

645
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: This has to stop. What was the moment when.

646
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I would have started around when I

647
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: was seventeen, and this is also at the same time

648
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: that I met this guy at UNI and maybe a

649
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: year into our relationship. I mean, by this stage, I'm

650
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: like blacking out when I stand up, but my hair's

651
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: falling out, all these ulcers and stuff. It's not good.

652
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, my body was not doing great, and I

653
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: eventually just I was so embarrassed. It's so embarrassing to

654
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: admit to somebody that you're hurting yourself because you think

655
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: you're ugly. It feels really like weak even saying it.

656
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: It's just so embarrassing. It's like something's gone really wrong

657
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: with me, and I'm embarrassed to tell you this is

658
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: how warped it's got. But I was so shamed because

659
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: it just felt embarrassing. I mean, and the one thing

660
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: that really freaked me out, I was like, he's going

661
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: to think that he's been kissing me and my mouth

662
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: has been doing these terrible things. You know, I've been

663
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: vomiting all the time, and I thought he would just

664
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: never want to touch me again. But he was so compassionate.

665
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: And I know that lots of people who go through

666
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: disordered relationships with eating have shame responses from others like

667
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: how could you do this well? But he never even

668
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: entered that realm. It was like just compassion. He never

669
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: made me feel silly for doing it. It was just

670
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: compassion of like, oh my god, I hope that you

671
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: can learn to be nice to yourself because I adore you.

672
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: That kind of thing. And actually what he did was

673
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: he was like, I don't know how to help, but

674
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: would it help if I ate with you and not

675
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: in a way that was like we eat the same

676
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: this is this he was like. I explained to him,

677
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 1: I don't know when i'm hungry anymore, and I don't

678
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: know when i'm full, and they feel the same. And

679
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: he was like, well, I always know when I'm hungry,

680
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: like constantly. And he was like, if we eat together,

681
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: I'll stop when I'm full and I'll just tell you

682
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how much you eat. But like, I

683
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: trust myself. Yeah, and so I would just eat at

684
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: the same time as him to begin with, not necessarily

685
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: the same thing, but I'd be like, okay, well that

686
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: was a human amount that he's had. It's all fine.

687
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: And it took years.

688
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have. I had a similar experience. So I

689
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: lost a bunch of weight for a magazine thing and

690
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: couldn't tell when I was full, and I would just

691
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: shovel that's the word that they use for it. I

692
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: was shoveling, shoveling food. I couldn't tell what I was

693
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: f and I was like, this is not good. Yeah,

694
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 2: I couldn't feel word about it. It's different, but yeah,

695
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: for me too, when those hormones aren't responding correctly, when

696
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 2: the signal to tell you things are okay. And so

697
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: it took a while. But what's it like now on

698
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: the other side of this. I mean, you're a very

699
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 2: public person. You're you know, you see pictures of yourself,

700
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: you see footage of yourself. Are you able to go actually?

701
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 2: How fucking come a long way? Is it difficult to

702
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: look at yourself like that.

703
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: I've definitely come a long way. I could not pretend

704
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: even for a second that I am free of this.

705
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: I feel like it's when I do hear alcoholics talk

706
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: about it, or addict people who have gone through addiction,

707
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: I immediately recognize the language of it's always there. Yeah,

708
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: Like you know, one drink might send you over the edge.

709
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Like I feel like one one purge would

710
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: do it right, Like it's just below the surface. But

711
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: the thing that has changed for me, that is the

712
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: huge distance that I've traveled, is that I'm able to

713
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: try and separate out objective and subject subjective feelings that

714
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: I have in my body. Like if I eat a

715
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: meal and I feel full, subjectively, I think to myself,

716
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: I think I must look so much bigger now that

717
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: I've had one meal. It's a strange thing in my mind.

718
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: I don't mean to be fat fobic or anything. It's

719
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: like this feeling that I have, like I think my

720
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: whole body has changed shape now I've eaten one meal. Yeah,

721
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: that's a really true feeling that I have. I have

722
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 1: changed visibly in front of everyone by eating this one meal.

723
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: But objectively, I'm a human person who fueled their body

724
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: with one meal. So you say both true things and

725
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: you try and figure out which one is the objective one,

726
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: and so it doesn't mean you can delete the subjective

727
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: feelings that you have. But it's like, I'm quite sure

728
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: that this.

729
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: Was a hue to be with both, and we're able

730
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 2: to go, where's the evidence? Yeah, where was the evidence? Fature,

731
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: there's and it's I mean, at first what I would

732
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: check my thinking with other people. I didn't like that

733
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: I had to check my thinking with other people. But

734
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: after I got over that, I just do it. And

735
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 2: it's smile easies. It's like I just got this idea.

736
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: They're like, I really just fucked that whole thing up there,

737
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: No you didn't, thank you, and then just check you

738
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: know that the whole time like it. Yeah, I know,

739
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: thank you, but they said it's cool. So I'm just

740
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: going to chill with them for a while, and unless

741
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 2: there's some fucking massive ramification that both of us missed,

742
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: I'll know that they were right.

743
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: Well, I'm even like this with the show, Like I

744
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: will very off of my poor crew. They're so they endure,

745
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: they endure my anxiety. But you know, I'll walk off

746
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: stage and five thousand people have come to sell out

747
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 1: the Horden or whatever, and I will teach the show

748
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: and I'll walk off stage and be like, I think

749
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: I fuck that up, but everyone cheered and everyone had

750
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: a great time, and they already want a ticket for

751
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: the next show. Like one of them is subjective and

752
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: one of them is objective, and you just have to

753
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 1: go with that one.

754
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: How do you choose the tracks that you're going to douse?

755
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: I try and read the room. I mean, I like

756
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 1: to try and pick a song that I think suits

757
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: where we're at. I don't always get it right, and

758
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: plus everyone feels differently, but you know, if we've all

759
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: been really going through it lately, I might try and

760
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: pick something really up or like a punk soul or

761
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: something that we just like can like Fiz Pump in

762
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: the air, like I try and just meet people where

763
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: they're at, because I really want my audiences to understand

764
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: that music is shaped around us and can meet us

765
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: in our needs. Not we just go through and we

766
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: just worship at other people's like alter of talent, Like

767
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: we can do that as well. But you can shape

768
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: the music so that it feels right for you, and

769
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: I think that's huge for people. It's like it's a

770
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: privilege to know how to do that, and I like

771
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: to facilitate that for people and to be like you

772
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: feel angry, shout this.

773
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: It's granting ourselves the permission once again to do this

774
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: thing that we were born to do, this thing that

775
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 2: feels really good for us, and the thing is good

776
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: for us when we do it with other people.

777
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: I feel like I should say I always hope that

778
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: pub Quiry is like the jumping off point for people.

779
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: Sometimes I see little pockets of the Internet being like

780
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 1: that bitch thinks she's like capitalized choir, and I'm like, no,

781
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: don't you see we're not in competition with each other.

782
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: Just because people come to my show doesn't mean that

783
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: they're not going to join a choir. Quite the opposite,

784
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: I think is that it just opens people's mind to

785
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: the post just.

786
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: Really really clear, just like and make me no matter.

787
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: Those people can get absolutely fine because they're not creating

788
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 2: this experience for thousands of people at once. Like the

789
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 2: deployment of psychological interventions at scale is really really really

790
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: hard to do, really hard to do. That's why there's

791
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: never enough therapists for everybody. But this experience you're giving people,

792
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 2: that's what people buy a ticket for. They want to

793
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: feel different to how they feel before they went into

794
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: the show, no matter what show you go to see it.

795
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: It's true, all right, but you're giving them something beyond that,

796
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 2: and you're allowing them to take home something that isn't

797
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: from the merchandise stand.

798
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: The take home also by our merch but you go

799
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: on absolutely if you.

800
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: Have a band by their merch all the time, by

801
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: the thing, by the thing, you're giving them an experience

802
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 2: that the otherwise would never get, an uplifting, emotional one

803
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 2: which has nothing to do with anything except I'm standing

804
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 2: in a room with strangers and now we're a little

805
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 2: closer when we leave. Thank you very that being nice.

806
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: We need to feel that we're a part of something bigger,

807
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: and if we spend our whole time just like staring

808
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 2: into an led screen, we might be scratching the itch

809
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: of I'm a part of something bigger, but we're not. Actually.

810
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the most important things that

811
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: right at the beginning of the show, I might put

812
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: your phone in your pocket. You weren't going to watch

813
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: the videos back anyway, you don't even have the phone storage,

814
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: and you're going to miss the show because the show

815
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: is you don't look at your phone eyes up, like

816
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: it's an eyes up sort of show. And I think

817
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: just me bullying everyone into putting their phone in their

818
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: pocket and just freeing them and like the eyes up

819
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: experience is rare now it's one of the last analogue

820
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: things that we're doing that in Funeral is put your

821
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 1: phone away, And so I think that it has become

822
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: really a I didn't know that at the beginning, but

823
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: that is becoming increasingly crucial to the experience. It's like, no, no, no, no,

824
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: look up and feel something. Anything at this point would

825
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: be good. But if you can eyes up and look

826
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: around and see who else is helping, see who's confident,

827
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: and ask for help. You know, like we're in this

828
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: moment at the same time. It would be a shame

829
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: to miss it because you're like trying to zoom in.

830
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 2: You're facilitating community engagement in a safe way, and that's

831
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: the thing that we all need. Loneliness is like, what

832
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: did I read this set the other day?

833
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: It's like worse than smoking a package.

834
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fifteen cigarettes today. Loneliness is as bad for

835
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: you as fifteen siguters that cigarettes today. And the other thing.

836
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: People who are who participate four times a month in

837
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: something along what you're describing in an organized group community thing,

838
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: they have on average a fourteen year longer lifespan fourteen fourteen.

839
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: That's huge. Come to the show everyone, because.

840
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 2: You think about why, right, Oh, there's people who are

841
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 2: looking out for me. I have a reason to go

842
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: and be I have I a contribute. I feel useful.

843
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: I think that's actually that's really important to note, is

844
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: like pub choir is a one night stand. You can

845
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: keep coming back to the show, but it will always change.

846
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: There's thousands of people. I hope that people join their

847
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: choir if they enjoyed the experience, because you will see

848
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: the same faces again and you matter. You know your

849
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 1: voice will make a difference, an audible difference to that group.

850
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: Pub choir we can't hear, so you're free to enjoy

851
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: the experience. But there are so many choirs around the country,

852
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: and all of them one singers, especially men, and I

853
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: think it's so good for you. I've read a study

854
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: singers in a choir their heartbeat synchronized when they sing

855
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: because they're exerting themselves in the same way. They're all

856
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: breathing out in the same way, and then in It

857
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: is so like cellular the connection that we get when

858
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: making art with others using our singing voices. Like go

859
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: and experience this such a human connection.

860
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 2: It's an important thing. You What have you found out

861
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: about because I learned this through you, through idle and

862
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: certainly in my own work. There's being perfect and then

863
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 2: there's just committing. Which one is more important?

864
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: Oh my god, the committing. You have to be lucky

865
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: and commit the whole time. I I work so hard

866
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: it's getting silly, like I probably need some more boundaries.

867
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: But I really take pride in being precise about what

868
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: will make something work. That's probably the biggest challenges surrounding

869
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: myself with people who have the same dedication to the

870
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: precision of what we're doing. I just think I'm not

871
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: fucking around with this. I know that I wrote a

872
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: book about shooting my pants or whatever, but at the

873
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: end of the day, I have worked so so hard

874
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: to build this thing. It started with seventy people. I

875
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: was also a school teacher at the same time. I

876
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: was also running six choirs every night of the week,

877
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 1: I was half selling. I feel like I haven't truly

878
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: had a moment to relax and soak it in since

879
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: it started. But I feel like this is the appetite

880
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: now that I have. Where I'm not sure when I'm

881
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: full is that I just keep I feel like I'm

882
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: on the frontier of a new human experience or something,

883
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: and I'm like it's I almost feel obligated to find

884
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: out where it goes. So I will just keep incrementally

885
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: improving what I have already learned and apply that knowledge

886
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 1: each time, and I hope that it gets better and better.

887
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: And I'm so curious to see where it goes, because

888
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: I really don't think anyone's done this before. Choirs have

889
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: always existed, pubs have always existed, people have sung drunk

890
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: for thousands of years. However, the way that I've put

891
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: it together, using this visual methodology and this like improvised

892
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: comedy lesson that I'm doing, and the scale like it's

893
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: not a thousand people singing along, it's a thousand people

894
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: singing in harmony that they just learned. This is a

895
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: new human thing. And so I just feel like I

896
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: will keep going until I find an end, until people

897
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 1: like we don't want to see anymore. If people buy tickets,

898
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, well let's go. Yeah, what happens next.

899
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 2: The He's an actor, Dan McPherson. He's a dear friend

900
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 2: and I love him. He once got pulled up during

901
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 2: an AD break of the Logis. He got pulled up

902
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 2: on stage by and they do a lot to try

903
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,919
Speaker 2: to keep that room occupied for the four minutes when

904
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: you're on an AD break, Right, He got pulled up

905
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: on stage with this comedian and they were trying to

906
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 2: teach him some fucking dumb dance man and I looked

907
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 2: at him and was like, oh damn, and it was

908
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: so cringe worthy and dances went. And this is the

909
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: guy who at the time was like shooting you know,

910
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: who's like a big war guy and was, you know,

911
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: making this big Navy seal movie. And he went and

912
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,479
Speaker 2: he took off his jacket and he just fucking went

913
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 2: for it. And I text him afterwards like, man, you're

914
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 2: raising and goes when in doubt, commit commit to the beds.

915
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 2: I will always commit to the bid. And so when

916
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: it comes to singing, I noticed this on an idol.

917
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: It didn't like Shannon Grassy look not the best thinger

918
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: at the time. Didn't fucking matter. I believed every word

919
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: he said and he absolutely committed to it. There's a

920
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: big difference between hitting the notes and singing, and if

921
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: you are there just it's like, you know, what would

922
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: you do with karaoke if no one gave you hoot?

923
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: Do that?

924
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: Just fucking go for it, and people will pay that

925
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 2: you went for it way more than they'll pay your pitch.

926
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I would so choose meaning over note every single time,

927
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: every day. I mean, ideally there's both. But you know,

928
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 1: if I had.

929
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: To choose, wear this intersex. Which I love is that

930
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 2: you also did this in the realm of the shiny

931
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 2: floor television when you went and did the Got Talent

932
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 2: show in the States. That must have been something extraordinary

933
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: to do that.

934
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: I think at a certain point you just reached saturation

935
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: of like things you can absorb. I mean, like I

936
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: know factual things about that appearance, like five million people

937
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: watch each episode in America, and Terry Crews is on

938
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: stage holding my hand, and like there's a spice girl

939
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: and whatever. I found out since it's past two hundred

940
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: and fifty million views the clip of my audition. But

941
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: I don't really understand what that means for me. I

942
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: was at work, I was teaching whoever was in front

943
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: of me how to sing something like I always do.

944
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: But it is wild to see on paper on what

945
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: that means. But I think I'm too present in the

946
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: moment to really be able to absorb all of that.

947
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 1: I did go on that Talent show not because I

948
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: think that music should be competitive. I have never felt

949
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: that art is it's incomparable. We can't compete. But I

950
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: really thought it would be a fun opportunity to flip

951
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: the script and just be like, the audience is the

952
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: main character of art.

953
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 2: If people are listening to these, can you they might

954
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 2: not be able to get to pubquirl? Right? Does it

955
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: count singing along to the radio in your car?

956
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: Singing along is a nice thing and a good experience

957
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: to do. Being the singer is different. Go join a choir,

958
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: there's just thousands. There's thousands out there. There's so many.

959
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 1: There will be acquire near you. In every regional town

960
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: there will be. If you're in a city, there'll be

961
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: acquir that does glee songs and acchoir that only does barbershop.

962
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,439
Speaker 1: Like there's just there's a musical room. Have been in both, yes,

963
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: haven't we all? I mean there's like, there's many many

964
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: rooms in the house of music. If choir is not

965
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: it for you, there's probably a ukulele club as well,

966
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: next door at the next community hall. The thing with

967
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: pub choir is the bouncing off point. It's the context

968
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: for people's lives. It's a bit tiddy. The stakes are

969
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: low for you, hi for me, But there's just so

970
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: many opportunities to make music with each other. I'm always

971
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: team choir because you don't have to buy anything. You

972
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: have to bring yourself and the strument that you have

973
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: is unique, which I think is a really great reason

974
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: to use it, even if it's bad, because no one

975
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 1: else has that one. I would say I do think

976
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: listening more is a good first step trying to hear

977
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: the thing that you want. And an extension of that is,

978
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: could you hear the note that you want in your

979
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: head just before you sing it? Because I would say,

980
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: as a person who has given music lessons and being

981
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: a music teacher, the problem that I've often picked up

982
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: is that people are making noises and then thinking they

983
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: make a noise, and then they're like, oh, I missed,

984
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, now it's too late, isn't it.

985
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: It would be better if you could think about the

986
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: noise that you want just before you need it. It's

987
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: like preparing your body to make sound. In the book,

988
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: I talk about when you play darts, you look at

989
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: the board and then you line up the tip of

990
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: the dart, and then you prepare your body and your

991
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: muscles and then you throw. Do the same thing with singing.

992
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: It's like you line up the note that you need

993
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: and you prepare your body for where that might be high, low, loud, soft,

994
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: and then you see because by the time you've sung

995
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: the notes too late to take it back. You can't

996
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: there's no take back six. You can't suck it back in.

997
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: So think about what you want first, and isn't that

998
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: a good analogy for life. Think first and then make

999
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: your noise works.

1000
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 2: And if the noise is average.

1001
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: Then I mean, it's not a crime. It's fine, it's

1002
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 1: a move on. Next note, please, Yeah, it's all right,

1003
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: it's all right, everything's fine.

1004
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 2: What did it like? I've had such a lovely times.

1005
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 2: Fore you go with you? Thanks for coming in. That

1006
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: was Astra Jorgenson. Her memoir is called average at Best.

1007
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: If you're listening to this as soon as it comes out,

1008
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 2: pubquir has got two days right around the country. The

1009
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 2: link for that is in the show notes, as well

1010
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 2: as a link for So What Now What, my new book,

1011
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 2: which you can get right now, as well as tickets

1012
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: for Story Club. Come to see the show in the

1013
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 2: twelfth of October. Will be at the Factory Theater with

1014
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: Cam Walker, Jenfricker, Lucy Bloom, Imma Na Cheety and Zoe

1015
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: Norton Lodge and myself. Thanks so much for listening, Enjoy

1016
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 2: the sing whatever you see, enjoy it because I don't

1017
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 2: know about you, but that show made me want to

1018
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 2: sing Bye bye.