Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Today's guest, Glen Fisher, has experienced things in his life
Speaker 1: that no one should have to go through, violence and
Speaker 1: abuse on a scale that will shock you. I don't
Speaker 1: even know how to describe what Glenn has been through.
Speaker 1: Down by his family and let down by the authorities
Speaker 1: who were meant to be helping him. How he is
Speaker 1: even alive, I think is a miracle in itself. We
Speaker 1: discuss heavy topics on I Catch killers, but today, I
Speaker 1: think it's appropriate to provide a content warning. We'll be
Speaker 1: discussing child sexual abuse, murder, violence, and a child protection
Speaker 1: system that failed. Glenn, who was living on the streets
Speaker 1: in King's Cross been preyed on by predators. Glenn spoke
Speaker 1: very openly about how he got revenge on the people
Speaker 1: who sexually abused him, his addiction to drugs, his time's
Speaker 1: in jail, trying to take his own life, and how
Speaker 1: he turned his life around so he could help others.
Speaker 1: Have a listen to what Glenn has been through and
Speaker 1: his views on life, I think will amaze you. It's
Speaker 1: a heavy chat, but Glenn's story definitely needs to be told.
Speaker 1: Glenn Fisher, welcome to I Catchkillers.
Speaker 2: He may thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Good. Well, I'm going to apologize up front because your
Speaker 1: name has come up to me so many times over
Speaker 1: the years, and you should get Glenn Fisher on the podcast,
Speaker 1: and we've got a lot of mutual contacts and friends.
Speaker 1: And on reflection, I think I sort of shied away
Speaker 1: from it because I knew your story. I hadn't understanding
Speaker 1: of your story how heavy it was, and I don't
Speaker 1: think I was just ready to deal with it and
Speaker 1: you would understand that, like it's just it's a dark world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and that's honest. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I thought, yeah, I've got to reach out
Speaker 1: to Glenn and then mate Adam Smith, who I first
Speaker 1: met in prison, he called me and put you straight
Speaker 1: on the phone. So I was pretty well stuffed and
Speaker 1: I've got okay, well I can't eide anymore, so I
Speaker 1: shout out to Adam for bringing this together.
Speaker 2: What a great man. I love watching people redeem themselves
Speaker 2: and that's what actually is doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is good, isn't it. It's really good
Speaker 1: and doing some doing some positive stuff as you are.
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about that because I think it's quite
Speaker 1: amazing how you've turned your life around. And we will
Speaker 1: talk about your childhood and I've got to say it
Speaker 1: was horrific and yeah that's the thing. Like the childhood
Speaker 1: you expect to be loved and nurtured and looked after,
Speaker 1: so you know, to come through what you've come through,
Speaker 1: it's quite amazing.
Speaker 2: I think that I've come to an understanding now that
Speaker 2: my mum specifically was really unwell and my dad well
Speaker 2: he's just a grub, you know, he's a predator, Like
Speaker 2: you can't explain that. But I think my mum was
Speaker 2: very unwell, showed schizophrenia, alcoholic, she suffered with addictions and
Speaker 2: mental health issues.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you get that understanding. As you get older,
Speaker 1: don't you. The world becomes a little bit clearer and
Speaker 1: you start putting the pieces together of what took place. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that looking at my own situation
Speaker 2: and my own circumstances, myself being a parent and knowing
Speaker 2: that how hard the thing to my life have impacted me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. So, in prepping for the podcast, I've
Speaker 1: watched some of your interviews and read the book and
Speaker 1: heard you speak, and there's one thing that really jumped
Speaker 1: out to me, and it's when you confronted one of
Speaker 1: your abuses, Simon Davies. And we'll talk more and more
Speaker 1: about that, But you bumped him on the streets of
Speaker 1: King's Cross and you told him pretty much word for word.
Speaker 1: I'll read it out one day. I'm going to write
Speaker 1: a book and expose you, and I will hold you
Speaker 1: accountable and tell the world what you have done. Now.
Speaker 1: Simon Davies is a convicted pedophile, but he sort of
Speaker 1: laughed at you and said you're a junkie. You're not
Speaker 1: going to be alive by the age of twenty one
Speaker 1: and you can't even write, So what are you going
Speaker 1: to do to me?
Speaker 2: Well both those things were true at the time, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, but the problem was by him saying that,
Speaker 2: Like I think that it might have been an idle threat. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but when he laughed in my face, I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: fuck you. I'll come back to you bo. And it
Speaker 2: took me a while, you know, because I had a
Speaker 2: heroine habit to deal with and a lot to process.
Speaker 2: But I did exactly what I said I would do
Speaker 2: and held him and others accountable. I wrote my book
Speaker 2: and now I'm telling the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, good on you. And he got convicted. Tell
Speaker 1: us about where you're from of him? Was it both
Speaker 1: chance meeting or you saw them out? No?
Speaker 2: So what happened was he was opposite the train station
Speaker 2: on the main street of King's Cross and it was
Speaker 2: just after the loss of my partner at the time
Speaker 2: that we'll talk about later, and I saw him and
Speaker 2: this is anger come over him, and I thought, I'm
Speaker 2: going to say something to this guy. And I walked
Speaker 2: up and I said, one day I'm going to tell
Speaker 2: the world what you did, and so one day I'm
Speaker 2: going to hold you accountable. I said, I'm going to
Speaker 2: write a book because he was an author, you know,
Speaker 2: that's what kind of inspired that thought process. And like
Speaker 2: I said, he just started laughing at me. And you know, you, junkie,
Speaker 2: you'll be dead by the age of twenty one. You
Speaker 2: can't even read and write. I had to fill out
Speaker 2: your forms at the refuge, which took me back, because
Speaker 2: both those things were true. I was a heroin addict
Speaker 2: and I couldn't read and write, not properly. I could
Speaker 2: read him write a little, but I was kind of illiterate.
Speaker 1: Doesn't that a lot about the type of person he is?
Speaker 1: Like that like beating down on the virtual kid with
Speaker 1: all the history and yeah, we're not even dragging dragging
Speaker 1: in at this stage the fact that the sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: but the type of person he is, like just crushing.
Speaker 2: One that's in his way. Yeah, that's exactly him, you know.
Speaker 2: And as a kid. It's funny because the very things
Speaker 2: that I've seen him now that I despise were the
Speaker 2: very things that I admired. And when I first met him,
Speaker 2: he was articulate, He was clever. He was surrounded by
Speaker 2: high profile people like prime ministers things like that, so
Speaker 2: you know, it was easy to impress, you know, a
Speaker 2: little boy that didn't know the world.
Speaker 1: That's the creepiness of it, isn't it. Yeah, they put
Speaker 1: they put themselves in. The perception from the public is
Speaker 1: that they're fine, up standing citizens, and they couldn't. It
Speaker 1: couldn't be further from.
Speaker 2: The truth, that's right. They get themselves into positions of
Speaker 2: power and positions of trust and attack the most vulnerable.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: One of the things that one of my abuses said,
Speaker 2: they were a wire. I had to wear a wire
Speaker 2: on one of my abuses, our Grant Morris, and he
Speaker 2: said in front of them, he said, we targeted pre
Speaker 2: pubescent children that come from broken homes that no one
Speaker 2: gives a shit about. And I was sitting with a
Speaker 2: detective and two undercovered detectives at the time, and everything
Speaker 2: in my body wanted to jump the counter, you know,
Speaker 2: and you know, react to that. But I knew that
Speaker 2: there was a process that he was slowly bringing himself
Speaker 2: down and we got him well. But Jijuit hurt when
Speaker 2: he said it, because you know, I wasn't the only one.
Speaker 2: Then it was people that I love very dearly and
Speaker 2: that were also kids are abused by these people.
Speaker 1: And this is the nature of the crime with these predators.
Speaker 1: It's not a one off thing. And you would have
Speaker 1: seen you in your time in prison, people that make mistakes,
Speaker 1: that lash out or something goes wrong. But these people plan,
Speaker 1: don't They they're predators is the right word for them,
Speaker 1: because they look for their victims. They're always hunting.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. One of the things the couple said to me
Speaker 2: once because I didn't want to give evidence. I was
Speaker 2: scared to go through all that process. And he said
Speaker 2: to me, Glenn, and he kind of was not right
Speaker 2: to say, but it worked. He said that every person
Speaker 2: that he abuses there after you by you not speaking
Speaker 2: up is kind of on you. You know, if you
Speaker 2: don't come forward and say something this guy, they go
Speaker 2: on to continue and and I couldn't live with that, bro,
Speaker 2: Yeah I couldn't.
Speaker 1: It's a true thing. But there's a big weight to
Speaker 1: place once place on you. But you know, you got
Speaker 1: the results. But just you know, you talk about being angry,
Speaker 1: and I want to ask you upfront, like speaking to
Speaker 1: you and getting the sense and there's a calmness about
Speaker 1: you and how have you let the anger go? Because
Speaker 1: when people, when our listeners, hear the story of your
Speaker 1: childhood and what you've been through and then not just
Speaker 1: through the family environment, but then the people that meant
Speaker 1: to protect you, I could understand why you would be
Speaker 1: the most angry human being. If you were still around
Speaker 1: and not completely broken, you would be angry. How have
Speaker 1: you managed to let that go?
Speaker 2: So for a lot of my life, that is who
Speaker 2: I was. Every little thing or big thing that would happen,
Speaker 2: my first emotion was always anger, and it was like
Speaker 2: a child. It was a child like right ah, you know,
Speaker 2: screaming and yelling like a kid. But what happens is
Speaker 2: I started treating my trauma and I started working on it.
Speaker 2: One of the things I realized that anger was a
Speaker 2: secondary emotion when I started to understand that there was
Speaker 2: actually something behind my anger, usually resenting, a rejection, hurt,
Speaker 2: some other kind of feeling. I used to keep a book,
Speaker 2: a reflections book, and at the end of each day,
Speaker 2: after any incidents that I'd have, I'd sit down and
Speaker 2: I'd write it all out, and I started to realize
Speaker 2: that I'm actually really hurt underneath it's more hurt than anger.
Speaker 2: I had a lot of rejection in my life, and
Speaker 2: so they were the feelings i'd feel, and it was
Speaker 2: like everything in the past, like I'd be again over
Speaker 2: an apple, something silly, but all of that would come
Speaker 2: to the apple, if that makes sense. And so I've learned.
Speaker 2: I've learned to places if something happens now, it's about now,
Speaker 2: it's not about my past. And I think my having
Speaker 2: a family has definitely softened me as well. I don't
Speaker 2: want to see history repeat.
Speaker 1: Well. Yeah, full credit to you, because I see and
Speaker 1: a lot of the people have sat in the seat
Speaker 1: where you're sitting that have had tough upbringings and you understand,
Speaker 1: but yours is right up there. Yeah, in terms of
Speaker 1: what happened, tell us about your childhood, like early memories
Speaker 1: and through just tell us your stories, because I think
Speaker 1: people are going to be shocked and the maze. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, my first memories are in I'm not
Speaker 2: sure if it was a rehab or a commune or
Speaker 2: what it was, but we were living in some place
Speaker 2: and I remember being there. But my parents got chucked
Speaker 2: out for some reason and we moved to North Sydney,
Speaker 2: Neutral Bay, I remember that my mum and dad's brand
Speaker 2: was a pedophile like my dad, and at this there,
Speaker 2: I just remember all these violent confrontations with my parents
Speaker 2: where my dad and mum would get drunk and they'd
Speaker 2: physically fired each other. They would always call me out
Speaker 2: to referee, you know, the oldest of the kids, Glenn,
Speaker 2: come out here, come out here, And then I'd go
Speaker 2: out and there's no winning, Gary, Like, no matter which
Speaker 2: side I choose, I've lost to the other, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. But the violence, like in North Sydney,
Speaker 2: in the first violent incident that I remember was my
Speaker 2: mom and dad had this huge, big fire screaming and
Speaker 2: yelling at each other, and then my mom told me
Speaker 2: to go with my dad. So I went and got
Speaker 2: in the car with my dad in this white youth
Speaker 2: and we're driving around the corner and then just randomly
Speaker 2: he reaches over, opens the door and just goes boot
Speaker 2: and kicks me straight out of the car like I
Speaker 2: don't know how fast it was going, but I remember
Speaker 2: skidding along the road and taking all skin off my shoulders,
Speaker 2: my elbows, and it was like and that's like it
Speaker 2: gets worse. The violence in my life was just you know,
Speaker 2: it just gets worse. But what happens is in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy we moved him out through it. And what ends
Speaker 2: up happening first is that I come home from school,
Speaker 2: so all the first thing that happens is I'm sitting
Speaker 2: outside of our house and a guy gets shot dead.
Speaker 2: A guy shoots his brother in the house directly across
Speaker 2: from where we were, and I'm just sitting on the
Speaker 2: brand of watching it, and nobody sort of pulled me inside.
Speaker 1: How old are we talk?
Speaker 2: Five?
Speaker 1: So that when you've been kicked the out of the car,
Speaker 1: you are a little boy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, an absolute infant. Yeah. But the reason I talk
Speaker 2: about the guy getting shot dead was because about a
Speaker 2: week after that, I was walking up my street from
Speaker 2: kindergarten to come home and I saw a bullwagon out
Speaker 2: the front of my house. And I'm now seven, And
Speaker 2: what happened is, as I'm walking up the driveway and
Speaker 2: see the bullagon out the front of my house, I think,
Speaker 2: what's going on? As someone hurt my dad, as someone
Speaker 2: hurt my mom, have they hurt my siblings? So I
Speaker 2: kind of rush in. My dad's been arrested for pedophilia charges.
Speaker 2: He's in the back of the car and drunk talking
Speaker 2: to the police, and the screaming and yelling and stuff,
Speaker 2: and I'm buzzing around like what's going on? What's going on?
Speaker 2: You know, like a kid does. I could comprehended. And
Speaker 2: the funny thing was this pit all the violence in
Speaker 2: my life, I still had this deep love for my
Speaker 2: dad and my mom, you know, I just did. But
Speaker 2: the other thing I remember was lots of promiscuity around
Speaker 2: my mum and dad's brand, who was a pedophile. Was
Speaker 2: what was actually happening was he was abusing me, and
Speaker 2: my dad was abusing his kids. And I have pickbacks
Speaker 2: and flashbacks sorry of him getting me to get on
Speaker 2: top of his two daughters whose names I won't say,
Speaker 2: but you know, I have all these kind of memories.
Speaker 2: But what ends up happening is my dad gets taken
Speaker 2: to jail and we get taken to an orphanage in
Speaker 2: Luis and they dump us in this Luis my mom.
Speaker 2: We get out about a week or so later, and
Speaker 2: then we get put back again. My mum slashes up.
Speaker 2: She cuts one hundred stitches in one arm, one hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty and the other she goes through a window
Speaker 2: or something and gets you know, stitches in her arms.
Speaker 2: She ends up getting my two younger SIPs out, at
Speaker 2: least my brother and I there. But it's when we
Speaker 2: come out that life really takes a turn for the worst.
Speaker 2: I go back to live with my mother. The first
Speaker 2: incident is my mother's ever heard of Beck's and Vincent powders?
Speaker 1: No? I remember them, yea, in the little yellow boxes.
Speaker 2: Well, mister Whipby trucks back then used to bring them,
Speaker 2: and she could hear the ding ding ding of the
Speaker 2: mister Whiby trunk, you know. So suddenly she's scurring around
Speaker 2: the house looking for coin, and I'm sitting in the
Speaker 2: laund room and she goes, you stole my money off,
Speaker 2: you didn't, your little sea, And I'm like, I didn't
Speaker 2: take nothing. I wouldn't have had the courage to do that,
Speaker 2: you know. She says, Oh, cut your fingers off if
Speaker 2: you did, you know, And I'd like and anyways, she
Speaker 2: picks up a carving knife and just goes, whush, strows
Speaker 2: it at me. I like, literally moves from a big
Speaker 2: sharp carving knife. And then this other girl comes to
Speaker 2: the door and she goes, help me get this little
Speaker 2: prick in the bathroom, and then they're dragging me down
Speaker 2: to the bathroom and she literally holds me over like
Speaker 2: you can see the scars on my finger. She literally
Speaker 2: holds my fingers over the edge of this scene and
Speaker 2: she puts the knife against it and just pushes. And
Speaker 2: she didn't really cat she just push it and just
Speaker 2: set it straight into some of my fingers and then bang.
Speaker 2: I just dropped to the floor. And it was the
Speaker 2: first time, like that was a whole new level of
Speaker 2: violence that I had experienced. I've been hit, punch, kick,
Speaker 2: you name it.
Speaker 1: This is with a weapon. This is a very control
Speaker 1: drag you in through the bathroom.
Speaker 2: And the friend that yeah, I can still can't believe
Speaker 2: that she held How are we talking? Well, she am,
Speaker 2: I I'm so nine. I'm nine years old when this happened.
Speaker 2: And the young girl she's only fifteen. So I've only
Speaker 2: just found out that my mother had a relationship with
Speaker 2: this young girl, right, so that you know, she's kind
Speaker 2: of a victim too, if that kind of makes sense.
Speaker 2: But when the path that angers me about it the
Speaker 2: most is when they took me to the hospital. I've
Speaker 2: got a doctor on this side sitching my finger up.
Speaker 2: I've got a lady on this side. I've got carpet
Speaker 2: boon all over me from being dragged on the carpet.
Speaker 2: She's dabbing and tapping me and stuff. And then the
Speaker 2: doctor says to him, and what happened to this little boy?
Speaker 2: She's screaming her head off and then bang, both silent.
Speaker 2: Not another word said people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're going back a long long time, and
Speaker 1: the world was a different place. But that's where we
Speaker 1: failed the kids, wasn't Yeah, a doctor, and it's probably
Speaker 1: easier just to say nothing, say nothing and turn a
Speaker 1: blind eye to it. And I think it's because it's
Speaker 1: so confronting to people, and I get that, yeah, but
Speaker 1: it's no excuse. I honestly I've mentioned I don't know
Speaker 1: your thoughts on it, but I think we should go
Speaker 1: after people that know. Too often i've heard kids being
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted and it's not just the predator that's doing
Speaker 1: the sexual assault. Other people knew about it. And I
Speaker 1: think we need to make a law on that that
Speaker 1: you can be an accessory to murder, you can aid
Speaker 1: in a bet, that type of thing. I think if
Speaker 1: you know that a child's been sexually abused, not just
Speaker 1: like teachers or the rules of the board. In now,
Speaker 1: I think there's an onus on everyone and if you
Speaker 1: turn a blind eye to it, you should be potentially
Speaker 1: held responsible for that.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I've always maintained and I'll
Speaker 2: save until the day I die. I hold more anger.
Speaker 2: And you're here as my story goes, those who are
Speaker 2: complicit in you and did nothing than those who actually
Speaker 2: abuse me. Those who abuse me, I can put that
Speaker 2: in a box. I can get that. But the ones
Speaker 2: that know and stand by and do nothing at all,
Speaker 2: I can't fathom that. As a father, as a man,
Speaker 2: as a human. You know, if I see something wrong,
Speaker 2: I step in. I step in, you know, And I
Speaker 2: just can't understand how people through my story and as
Speaker 2: you're here, as we go along, there are so many
Speaker 2: of them, and people in positions of absolute power who
Speaker 2: could have done something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no excuse that they all need to take
Speaker 1: a long, hard look at themselves. And I've stepped in
Speaker 1: on things whilst in the cops and even rolls outside
Speaker 1: the cops. And it doesn't make you popular, and it's
Speaker 1: ugly and it's messy, but it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: And I'm sick of people saying, oh, well, it wasn't
Speaker 1: our business, and it's everyone's business to protect.
Speaker 2: Kids, absolutely every single person's responsibility.
Speaker 1: So the family friend, when you were first sexually assaulted,
Speaker 1: what was the dynamics there? How did they ovocate what happened?
Speaker 1: Just after the severing of the fingers? He comes over
Speaker 1: to visit.
Speaker 2: And so one of the things my mother was doing
Speaker 2: was giving me sleeping pills to sleep all the time,
Speaker 2: because apparently it was hyperactive. That's what it says in
Speaker 2: my dog's files. So you're giving me these sleeping pills,
Speaker 2: and one night, I'm asleep in my bed and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I wake up and I'm being sexually
Speaker 2: abused from behind. And when I wake up, grabs my face,
Speaker 2: puts his hand around my mouth and just goes really
Speaker 2: hard and then lets me go. And like I'm nine
Speaker 2: years old, I don't even know what's happening or what's
Speaker 2: happened to me. I just know that I'm in a
Speaker 2: lot of pain, and there's a lot of gray stuff
Speaker 2: going on from that, you know, including bleeding, you know it.
Speaker 2: And I remember sitting on my bed, rocking back and forth,
Speaker 2: like trying to process what's just happened to me. And
Speaker 2: I remember walking across to the bathroom and seeing my mother,
Speaker 2: you know, on the n like the noses on the
Speaker 2: blink and and he's taken advantage of that moment and
Speaker 2: bang come into my room and done what he's done.
Speaker 2: And it was like I had that happen at the
Speaker 2: Saint just lot long after my fingers had just been severed.
Speaker 2: So that's two serious things that have happened, you know.
Speaker 1: And it was like.
Speaker 2: I went from this bubbly little boy to silent, literally silent,
Speaker 2: like I just I was like I was walking on
Speaker 2: eggshells everywhere I went. I was so afraid of getting backhanded, hit,
Speaker 2: slap punched, or sexually abused that I just ceased being
Speaker 2: a person. I was just like this little shadow getting around.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't know what life was about, would you. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't have no understanding like where's your reference point, where's
Speaker 1: the people that you can trust or guide you. But
Speaker 1: and with that you touched on it early that your father,
Speaker 1: who was a convicted pedophile who has taken away this
Speaker 1: was his mate and they were swapping swapping their kids,
Speaker 1: that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he also was very violent. His violence looked
Speaker 2: different to my mom. My Mum's a volatile, drunk violent
Speaker 2: you know, she just suddenly would explode. My dad was
Speaker 2: more contained.
Speaker 1: You'd like.
Speaker 2: I used to sit like this next to my dad
Speaker 2: all the time because suddenly my face would just go
Speaker 2: numb and he'd backhand. It'd be something I'd done weeks ago,
Speaker 2: three weeks ago, you didn't do whatever. You know, I'm
Speaker 2: bang and my face would go numbs. My nose is
Speaker 2: like that from being hit so many times dad, you know.
Speaker 2: And it's like I just I was so afraid as
Speaker 2: the kid. And what made it worse was when I
Speaker 2: went to school, people had learned that if they did
Speaker 2: that to me. I was doing this my whole childhood.
Speaker 2: I was chumping all the time, and people thought it
Speaker 2: was funny. And I mean their kids, they don't know, they.
Speaker 1: Would know, but I could imagine that would be hilarious
Speaker 1: for kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And they're doing it to me all the time,
Speaker 2: and I literally it's like I know they're going to
Speaker 2: do it. I know my body's going to react, and
Speaker 2: I'm literally concentrating training not to do it, but I
Speaker 2: just couldn't stop. It was like an involuntary reaction to
Speaker 2: that trauma.
Speaker 1: While this was going on, Did any teachers or anyone
Speaker 1: get a sense of what's going on? Were you're taking
Speaker 1: the school counselors? Did they even have school counselors back then.
Speaker 2: It's the saddest part of my story is it's documented.
Speaker 2: I have pages like you've got that book, I've got
Speaker 2: dogs files, and it literally Glenn has a black eye,
Speaker 2: Glenn has, you know, like there's so many reported incidents,
Speaker 2: Glenn's mother has. Glenn's been telling us that his mother's
Speaker 2: giving and sleeping tablets to make him sleep. Like it's
Speaker 2: all documented. It's literally or documented. I never said the
Speaker 2: words I'm being rape, but I said they're hurting me.
Speaker 2: That's the words I used. That's a child's word. You know,
Speaker 2: they're hurting me. But they just kept putting me back.
Speaker 2: But in nineteen seventy two, a psychologist, after my mother
Speaker 2: went into hospital for that said said, these children must
Speaker 2: be removed from this severely disturbing home. That's the word,
Speaker 2: severely disturbing home. And yet two weeks later, again we're
Speaker 2: returned to this violent psychopath. And as much as I like,
Speaker 2: I feel sad for my mother, what she was doing
Speaker 2: to me and doing to us kids, me specifically, was
Speaker 2: just beyond comprehension. It was, you know, you couldn't write
Speaker 2: this stuff.
Speaker 1: No, well, that's why I said at the start, people
Speaker 1: are going to be shocked by what you what you've
Speaker 1: gone through with the When your father was charged with
Speaker 1: the sexual assault of children, did he get the custodial sentence, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he was out of the family home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was out of the family home until I
Speaker 2: don't know. He's the one actually got out of thee.
Speaker 2: So my mother came twice to Luciam to get us out,
Speaker 2: and then my dad when he got out of jail,
Speaker 2: he got us out. But then as soon as he
Speaker 2: got us out and they learned wind of that, he
Speaker 2: got put back with my mom straight away. So, you know,
Speaker 2: I've never been able to trace the charges. I know
Speaker 2: he's been charged twice, and people ain't give me that
Speaker 2: information because it's on my dad, which is frustrating. But
Speaker 2: I know what I know. I know what I remember,
Speaker 2: and it was consistent.
Speaker 1: And it was all that he's passed away there.
Speaker 2: My dad died just before Christmas last year, and my
Speaker 2: brother within days of each other. One had a brain
Speaker 2: tumor and my dad died of body luid dementia. I
Speaker 2: actually went up there Gary, and my sister reached out
Speaker 2: and said, Dad's going to die. He's got Louis dementia.
Speaker 2: And I didn't know much about dementia, and I thought,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go up and I had all this
Speaker 2: stuff I wanted to stay, you know. I say this,
Speaker 2: and I say that, and I'm driving up there and
Speaker 2: I'm crying, like, you know, I want to get this
Speaker 2: out of me, you know. And then I walked in
Speaker 2: and my memories of this big, strong man and what
Speaker 2: I saw was this tiny, fragile man took fifteen minutes
Speaker 2: to get one side of the bed to the other.
Speaker 2: I actually made a video on social media about it.
Speaker 2: And I just sat down and I breathed out, and
Speaker 2: I said, you know what, I forgive you. And I
Speaker 2: had to like hurts me saying it, but I had
Speaker 2: to forgive him Gary, because I've got a family and
Speaker 2: I was carrying that and gave me so deeply, and
Speaker 2: I thought, I'm not forgiving him for him, I'm forgiving
Speaker 2: for me so that I can have some peace and
Speaker 2: have some sort of life going forward.
Speaker 1: I get that then yeah, sometimes it seems counterintuitive that you,
Speaker 1: how do I forgive an asshole that's done done what
Speaker 1: he's done done to you? But it's about you. You're
Speaker 1: going to let the angered destroyer that you're going to
Speaker 1: Your revenge is the fact that you live a good life.
Speaker 1: And to say if that helps you to say you
Speaker 1: forgive him, yeah, good, that's right.
Speaker 2: And I started to see one of the worst things
Speaker 2: in our world from my perspective, is generational trauma, generational abuse,
Speaker 2: generational all the things of generational labor. And that's going
Speaker 2: to be my story because of the way I was acting,
Speaker 2: and I was fighting every man that I couldn't care
Speaker 2: about win or not. I just need I'd had so
Speaker 2: much anger, and then I realized what I was doing
Speaker 2: was having an impact on people I love, and I
Speaker 2: knew I had to do something about this, you know,
Speaker 2: or history will repeat and because that's what happens, you know,
Speaker 2: hurt people, hurt people, even within our intent, you know,
Speaker 2: and it might look different each time. And for me,
Speaker 2: it was attacking people all over the place. And it's like,
Speaker 2: and what I used to do is I target someone
Speaker 2: that bullied someone else, and it was like a way
Speaker 2: to justify right here, so I can jump in and
Speaker 2: do this, you know. And but at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, it was something.
Speaker 1: In me that was needed, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: do channel it that way, and you were seeing that
Speaker 1: in prison a lot a lot of the people. And
Speaker 1: you talk big, heavy muscle up tatooed bikis, yeah, a lot.
Speaker 1: When you scrape the surface, it's from something that's happened
Speaker 1: in their past, and they're they're reacting with anger. You know.
Speaker 1: There's there's this conception and you know, I think there's
Speaker 1: some merit to it that if you've been abuse, you
Speaker 1: possibly could abuse again. But that's not necessarily the case.
Speaker 1: You steer that in other ways, dysfunction ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. The actra statistics around that are actually
Speaker 2: quite low. It's quite bizarre, but you are right. What
Speaker 2: happened is it will manifest in some way. I quite
Speaker 2: quite often talk to a lot of addicts with the
Speaker 2: stuff that I do now, and I keep telling them
Speaker 2: that your addiction is a symptom of something much deeper.
Speaker 2: For me, that was trauma, you know, and we need
Speaker 2: to find out what that is in each person, because
Speaker 2: it looks like you said, different in each person.
Speaker 1: To treat it. Yeah. The homes that you were placed in,
Speaker 1: were they orphany? Just?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: Were they all temporary accommodation? What was the places where?
Speaker 1: What's your sequence of events from there? Because you went
Speaker 1: here and went out a few different times.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So up to the age of seven, we were
Speaker 2: removed twenty two times and return twenty two times back
Speaker 2: to my parents. At the age of seven, I was
Speaker 2: put into an orphanage and then returned to my mum.
Speaker 2: Then I was moved to my dad at the age
Speaker 2: of ten. At twelve, I started running away. I'd had
Speaker 2: a gupful of it, and of course running away back
Speaker 2: then was a crime. It was called uncontrollable. So I
Speaker 2: was charged with the crime of uncontrollable. I was put
Speaker 2: in first war Am I Yasmar, then Dearrek, Derek boys
Speaker 2: Aim And I'll never understand how you take a child
Speaker 2: who's running away from violence and CSA sexual abuse to
Speaker 2: be placed into an institution that is equally violent with
Speaker 2: sexual abuse. It's like it felt like I had it
Speaker 2: written on my fucking forehead. And I'm sorry for swearing,
Speaker 2: but that's how I feel. I had the misfortune Gary
Speaker 2: of when I was a little boy of looking like
Speaker 2: a pretty little girl. And it's just what that's why
Speaker 2: I was wired. And so when I was in Yasma,
Speaker 2: like they, I was arrested with my brother and we're
Speaker 2: putting to the junior side. And what actually happens is
Speaker 2: they moved me to the senior side because someone in
Speaker 2: there in wisdom decided we're going to separate siblings because
Speaker 2: they're a power couple. So I get put onto the
Speaker 2: senior side when I'm only thirteen. We're fifteen, sixteen, seventeen
Speaker 2: year olds. And while nothing happened in Yasma, what did
Speaker 2: happen was people kept jumping in my bed when I'd
Speaker 2: have a shower, They'd grab me, touch me, you know,
Speaker 2: I look at this, They'd massivate beside me, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, and I as a little kid, I'm still
Speaker 2: not comprehending why.
Speaker 1: People How old are these other kids you're in with?
Speaker 2: Sixteen?
Speaker 1: Not right? So completely different different stages.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. I mean I'm pretty prebesdent, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? These you know, these are kids
Speaker 2: that are completely different stages. And they all thought it's
Speaker 2: a big joke and a laugh, but it set the
Speaker 2: precedent for the next introduction I went to, which is Derek,
Speaker 2: where I was abused twice, very savagely, one time in
Speaker 2: my bed and once in a boiler room where and
Speaker 2: obviously literally walks out of the room and leaves six
Speaker 2: guys with me, like six like almost adults, you know,
Speaker 2: and this little tiny boy and turning the blind eye
Speaker 2: to it, turning a blind eye to it, you know.
Speaker 2: And like again, I just went silent. I was this
Speaker 2: silent kid, and happening is like I've not had any
Speaker 2: violence in my life until Derek. What happened was the
Speaker 2: guy asked me to have an arm wrestle with him,
Speaker 2: and I beat him in chess first, and then they said, oh,
Speaker 2: you couldn't beat Fisher in an arm wrestle, so give
Speaker 2: him his arm wrestle. In some reason, I've just gone
Speaker 2: bang and put him straight down. He's gone bang and
Speaker 2: can hit me. I lost my shit, and it's the
Speaker 2: first time in my life I just it was like
Speaker 2: that song cowd of the County and everything just come
Speaker 2: out of me. In one game, something I was told me,
Speaker 2: you were reading Tommy wrong. They're reading me wrong, because
Speaker 2: I just I just keep lashing the people are pulling
Speaker 2: me off, and I'm going back. I actually grabbed a chair,
Speaker 2: like I just I lost it. And it was like
Speaker 2: all of my rage was in that one. They poured
Speaker 2: into that. You know. It was the first time I
Speaker 2: realized I was more capable than I had thought o
Speaker 2: my life. I'd been like people went like this to me.
Speaker 2: I did the I jumped, and I always had my
Speaker 2: hands up like, don't let me hurt me. Don't. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right. And because every time I even moved as
Speaker 2: a kid, I just the violence was so much that
Speaker 2: I spent a whole lot of my life counting, you know.
Speaker 2: And so that continued on as a child through these interests.
Speaker 1: When you unleash like that, did that change the dynamics
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: So what happened was there was this boy and I
Speaker 2: won't say his name, but he was an older indigenous boy.
Speaker 2: And when he got up, he put his hand on
Speaker 2: my head and he said, this little boy, he's got
Speaker 2: more ticket than half of your pricks in here. And
Speaker 2: he said, the next one that puts their hand on
Speaker 2: this kid, he said, they're going to deal with me.
Speaker 2: And no one touched me again, but no one talked
Speaker 2: to me either. I just became like, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: not there. You know that was okay. I was as
Speaker 2: long as people were in touching me, hitting me, hurting me,
Speaker 2: I was okay with that.
Speaker 1: So how how long were you in and out of
Speaker 1: the system for like that?
Speaker 2: From the age of seven to the age of about fourteen,
Speaker 2: I was in and out pretty much a fair bit.
Speaker 1: Okay, there was one I heard you talk about one
Speaker 1: place when you were released from the system and you
Speaker 1: went and you thought, oh, this is good. I'm being
Speaker 1: put in the house and there was nine adults or
Speaker 1: nine people living in there, and you were sleeping in
Speaker 1: a room with two adult male pedophiles.
Speaker 2: That's right. So what actually happened was I ran as
Speaker 2: soon as I got out of Direk. My dad picked
Speaker 2: me up, and as soon as we got back to Gosford,
Speaker 2: I'm not doing this anymore. I don't want to be
Speaker 2: in a home and I don't want to be in
Speaker 2: a home of violence. I'm sick of being hurt, and
Speaker 2: I knew that it was going to continue, so I
Speaker 2: just wanted to stop it. So I actually ran away
Speaker 2: two docks and I went up and saw an office
Speaker 2: and at the Mount drew a Dock's office and I said, look,
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not trying to be a bad boy.
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to run away or cause trouble. I said,
Speaker 2: I'm scared and I'm sick of being hurt. Helped me
Speaker 2: and he said, oh well, he rings around. He comes
Speaker 2: back and he said, I've got a foster family for
Speaker 2: you in Mount Drew. It. Now, what I don't know
Speaker 2: is prior to my going there, one kid's been shot
Speaker 2: dead in their custody. Another girl has been abused in
Speaker 2: their care. There's two men with prior convictions in his house. Yeah,
Speaker 2: kids in three bedroom house. Nine people have lived there.
Speaker 2: It's like they're using foster kids to make make money,
Speaker 2: lose a payment that you know, and buying her house
Speaker 2: pretty much with all of us kids. But I get
Speaker 2: put into this room with three adult men and me
Speaker 2: a little boy, and it didn't take long before he
Speaker 2: starts touching and hurting me, you know. And I stayed
Speaker 2: in that house for about five or six months. Then
Speaker 2: what happened is I'm just sick of her. And my
Speaker 2: mum turns up drunk one day out the back, tries
Speaker 2: to have a fight with them all and then about
Speaker 2: a month after that, because the dogs will come in
Speaker 2: taking me on visits with my siblings. She says, oh,
Speaker 2: we're moving South Australia. She said, I've got a new
Speaker 2: boyfriend who's got a job, and I want to bring
Speaker 2: the family back together and try and be a mum.
Speaker 2: And I'm like sold, I mean, all I want to
Speaker 2: do is be my siblings. You're looking for Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: looking to be loved by my mum and my siblings.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: We get to we stop at every pub all the
Speaker 2: way to Save Australia. She's drinking and when we get there,
Speaker 2: her boyfriend and her have a big punch on in
Speaker 2: the caravan park. So my brother and I thirteen or fourteen,
Speaker 2: we try to jump in and fight for my mum
Speaker 2: ends up happening and she ends up kicking us out.
Speaker 2: We get put on a bus back to Oxford Street
Speaker 2: to meet my real dad in OxyS Street. I get
Speaker 2: off the bus and we're starve and gary. We haven't
Speaker 2: eaten for, you know, probably three or four days, and
Speaker 2: I'm really hungry and I'm walking behind my dad with
Speaker 2: my brother, and then all of a sudden, my dad
Speaker 2: stops and he turns around and says, where the fuck
Speaker 2: you think you're gone? He said, piss off. He said,
Speaker 2: you can't go to your foster family. I don't want you,
Speaker 2: you know, go away. And I remember sitting on Oxford
Speaker 2: Street in this bus terminal and I was just sobbing,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't have anywhere to go.
Speaker 2: I don't have the foster family. Now, I don't you
Speaker 2: know if everybody gave. People are hurting me. I literally
Speaker 2: don't know what to do. And this man comes and
Speaker 2: sit down beside me, a predator, you know. And I'm
Speaker 2: a big, strong looking guy, but talks really softly. Are
Speaker 2: you okay a little fella? Can I buy you something
Speaker 2: to eat? And like, I'm so susceptible to any kind
Speaker 2: of attention or love that I just into this man's charm.
Speaker 2: But something twigged me as we're walking up Oxford Street.
Speaker 2: We walk up these stairs. All I've got is a
Speaker 2: little bag with a T shirt and a pair of
Speaker 2: shorts in it. That's my life. And I'm walking up
Speaker 2: there and I said, I'm not going to come in,
Speaker 2: miss so I don't want to go in. And I
Speaker 2: pulled a bag away and I started to walk and
Speaker 2: he grabs my hand and he ends up getting the
Speaker 2: bag off me, and then I just ran and I
Speaker 2: ran all the way down, got to Central Station and
Speaker 2: went back to my foster family, who didn't want me,
Speaker 2: you know. So they drove me to Mount Drew a
Speaker 2: train station, gave me five bucks, and they rang a
Speaker 2: refuge in King's Cross called the Opposition Use Refuge. And
Speaker 2: there was my journey about to go to kings Cross,
Speaker 2: you know. And it was like, do you know when
Speaker 2: I walked out that train station. I mean, I'm fourteen,
Speaker 2: you know what a fourteen's I think we know everything.
Speaker 2: I remember walking out that station. I thought, no one's
Speaker 2: going to ever hurt me again. That's it. It's over.
Speaker 2: No person will ever touch me, control me, or hurt
Speaker 2: me again. Little did I know, I was walking out
Speaker 2: of the potton into the fire. You know. I was
Speaker 2: literally walking into our predator's paradise. The place was alittered
Speaker 2: with him.
Speaker 1: Hence the name me your book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, paradise.
Speaker 1: Okay, So for thean you and look, this is a
Speaker 1: story that people. We know it in a general sense.
Speaker 1: Everyone hears about the kids that end up on the
Speaker 1: streets of King King's Cross, But this is your story
Speaker 1: on how you ended up there and the horrors that
Speaker 1: you've seen and been involved in the lead up to that.
Speaker 1: You get the King's Cross as Forten take us through
Speaker 1: that journey.
Speaker 2: So when I first get there, like, I'm curious, So
Speaker 2: I go into every building all the way out the
Speaker 2: left and every building all the way out the right.
Speaker 2: You know, I want to know what's going.
Speaker 1: On, the bright lights all that, the people around. So
Speaker 1: you're thinking, okay, well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the weird, the wonderful, the colorful. You know, it
Speaker 2: was like it was crazy. But what really got me
Speaker 2: was I met a whole lot of different kids that
Speaker 2: were on the street just like me, and and I
Speaker 2: didn't have to be tough, I didn't have to be handsome,
Speaker 2: I didn't have to be anything. I could just be green.
Speaker 2: And I fitted into this little group where we lived
Speaker 2: in this squat. And as you've probably read it in
Speaker 2: my book, and I'm going to try my hardest, but
Speaker 2: I actually get really emotional when I talk about her.
Speaker 2: I met a beautiful girl. Her name was Linda. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you know, she just like me, and I loved her.
Speaker 2: It was my first girlfriend. I'd never had a friend.
Speaker 2: Later girlfriend, you know what, I mean, here, I've got
Speaker 2: this girlfriend that's just enamored with me, who was stunning,
Speaker 2: absolutely stunning, you know, and we were staying in squats
Speaker 2: and running around the st I mean, we're playing chasings
Speaker 2: on the main street of King's Cross.
Speaker 1: So how many kids are we talking about? And what
Speaker 1: were their stories? What were their backgrounds?
Speaker 2: Very similar? So we had a group of about twelve
Speaker 2: that was in our specific group, but there was lots
Speaker 2: and lots of kids in multiple groups around the street.
Speaker 1: What is it that they end up in the Cross?
Speaker 1: What's like you were sent there? But what was it
Speaker 1: about the Cross that attracted I think it's the system.
Speaker 2: I think most kids talked amongst each other and knew
Speaker 2: that Manly town Hall and King's Cross where the go
Speaker 2: to spots.
Speaker 1: Okay, because you'll find other kids in the same situation.
Speaker 2: In the same situation, most of them running away. They're
Speaker 2: sick of being hit. Their parents are alcoholics or heroin
Speaker 2: adictsal drug addicts. You know, you know, not always that
Speaker 2: some kids are just bloody.
Speaker 1: Spoiler because I suppose and there would be on clothes
Speaker 1: in different suburbs. But if you're out in a you
Speaker 1: be on your own and you found your tribe collective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what it is. It's the safety in
Speaker 2: numbers thing, you know. We're in a group together, and
Speaker 2: so I always felt safe. And there was one guy
Speaker 2: that was bigger than me. He was Fijian and he
Speaker 2: was my best friend. And I just was enamored with
Speaker 2: this man because he I mean he was fourteen two,
Speaker 2: but he was big and strong, you know, and he
Speaker 2: was like you ever see that cardoing with the big
Speaker 2: dog and the little dog and he's chasing the out dog.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can picture it. Describe to us when you say,
Speaker 1: you know, we used to bed down in a squad like,
Speaker 1: I've got a sense of I've seen those places, but
Speaker 1: describe it to people that it's a world that's foreign
Speaker 1: to them.
Speaker 2: So this one specifically was in Manning Street. It was
Speaker 2: an old convent and it was dangerous. It had no
Speaker 2: floor on two levels and it used to walk up
Speaker 2: and every room had either drunks or heroin addicts or
Speaker 2: people living in it. But there was one room at
Speaker 2: the end that just that was the kids room, you know,
Speaker 2: And we had like crates or set up and we
Speaker 2: had a couple of mattresses we dragged from somewhere. I
Speaker 2: don't know where they're there. Before I got there, we
Speaker 2: used to use to get dyeed sheets to make curtains.
Speaker 2: It was kind of like, yeah, it was spray paints
Speaker 2: all over the wall, but it was our little spot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it was quite volatile and dangerous, you know, because
Speaker 2: there was different people would use drugs, get alcohol, and
Speaker 2: they come and they see kids, and there was always
Speaker 2: young pretty girls with us as well, so you know,
Speaker 2: they sort of look at that as something a challenge
Speaker 2: to them, you know, and we weren't capable of depending
Speaker 2: ourselves really against that.
Speaker 1: You had one incident, you had some skinheads tell us
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're all sitting there one time and a group
Speaker 2: of skinhead to come up to use in the place.
Speaker 2: And they all walked into the room and they were
Speaker 2: big boys, man like, they were big kind of guys
Speaker 2: and we're like little skinny, you know, nothings. And they've
Speaker 2: all walked in and they started talking to the girls.
Speaker 2: Fresh mate sniffing and doing all these things, you know,
Speaker 2: old enough to blue, you know, saying these fucking cruise
Speaker 2: ships to us. And like, my mate, he gets up
Speaker 2: and he's like stands up and I'm like there's about
Speaker 2: eight of them, there's like one of him. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: I stand behind in tentatively, like I'm there with you, bro,
Speaker 2: but I'm no good to you at all, but I'm
Speaker 2: in support.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's always good to know someone's behind you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But then there was a torch, a torch light, and
Speaker 2: I said to him, well, that's the coppers. Like one
Speaker 2: thing I've always been got as being smart, I can
Speaker 2: use my brains pretty well. And I said, that's the coppers.
Speaker 2: I said, because we're kids that come here, and chet
Speaker 2: con us every hour said they'll be up in a minute,
Speaker 2: and they sort of looked at each other and bang,
Speaker 2: there gone, you know. And then I wanted to go.
Speaker 2: I wanted to get out of there, and let's get
Speaker 2: out of.
Speaker 1: Here of sexual abuse of the kids in there. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the tourists wall that we talk of in King's Cross
Speaker 1: and different things tell us the dynamics of that environment. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So in the daytime, there was the park half he
Speaker 2: Troy Park, which was outside the police station, right outside
Speaker 2: the police station, and all day long you'd see little
Speaker 2: boys sitting in there, and all these different men and
Speaker 2: all who become known to me over my period in
Speaker 2: the cross, you know, and they come in and like
Speaker 2: they're very good at make filling voids. What they did
Speaker 2: is they find the kid and they find what it
Speaker 2: is that's missing them. They need their tires pump? Do
Speaker 2: they need you know?
Speaker 1: Laugh?
Speaker 2: Do they need Buney security home? Whatever it is? And
Speaker 2: and they take these kids off. And the people I
Speaker 2: used to see come to there and the war specifically
Speaker 2: the war were some people that would blow your mind.
Speaker 2: You know, some of the most powerful people in our country.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about teachers, principles, lawyers, politicians, movie stars, you know.
Speaker 2: And I won't name it all on camera obviously, but
Speaker 2: I'm happy to share with you some of them. And
Speaker 2: it's it's like bizarre. And some of those people, I mean,
Speaker 2: I gave evidence of the both commissions and I named
Speaker 2: these people, but you know, they sealed our files, which
Speaker 2: I don't understand.
Speaker 1: And so when they these people approach, whether the high
Speaker 1: profile or and positions of responsibility or anyone, when they're
Speaker 1: approaching the kids, they're offering them money for sex or whatever.
Speaker 1: That could be as simple as a feed. I'll take
Speaker 1: you for take you for a feed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's what they do. They come in,
Speaker 2: they go, how are you doing? You know, like the
Speaker 2: first one I met, I was playing a pinball machine
Speaker 2: and he come up beside it and he goes, oh,
Speaker 2: you win a mate. I said, you know, like a
Speaker 2: little kid pomatize. Oh yeah, I'm doing really good. Let
Speaker 2: me have a go with you. Yah yeah, yea yeah
Speaker 2: we're playing. And then oh would you like something to eat?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to have something to eat.
Speaker 2: And then you know, we in the back. He said,
Speaker 2: how nothing happens the first time, if you've read that
Speaker 2: in my book, But what actually happens is as a
Speaker 2: prelude to the biker thing that happened. There was this
Speaker 2: big fight on the street to the cross and there
Speaker 2: was all these bikers and dormant just punching on. There
Speaker 2: was women. He was the most violent thing I ever seen,
Speaker 2: and being a kid like I ran to the front
Speaker 2: of the crowd. But the crowd around me got so
Speaker 2: big that I kept getting pushed in, pushed into this crowd,
Speaker 2: and I was about two am in the morning. A
Speaker 2: big hand comes through and literally pulls me out of
Speaker 2: the crowd and he says, get the fuck out of
Speaker 2: the cross, bro, this is no place for kids. And
Speaker 2: a woman screaming at me as well, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: and then the only place I knew to go Gary
Speaker 2: was the squad. But the squad was right down the
Speaker 2: back of the cross in this back lane had to
Speaker 2: go a f it was like dark, it was sketchy.
Speaker 2: I was never going there on my own, And so
Speaker 2: the only place I knew to go was the pedophiles home, right,
Speaker 2: you know. And that so that's the first sort of
Speaker 2: introduction for me to a predator. Whereas he says to me, oh,
Speaker 2: I know, and he was he was working for a
Speaker 2: guy and I won't say his lane, but a bit
Speaker 2: some big pushes in the cross, you know. And so
Speaker 2: he's saying, I can look after you, I can give
Speaker 2: you pot, I can give your money, you know, and
Speaker 2: all this sort of stuff. And it doesn't come on
Speaker 2: to me straight away.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like I can have all my friends there, like
Speaker 2: it's like, what more do I want? But it comes
Speaker 2: to the cost, and that that's what the cost was.
Speaker 2: And they let your friends hang in there, and yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right, and give them pot and you know, and
Speaker 2: so I'm suddenly popular because I've got pot to give
Speaker 2: out and.
Speaker 1: Like it's you know, and when does the abuse start
Speaker 1: or when does it?
Speaker 2: Well, it starts there first, but I and I'm living
Speaker 2: with a girlfriend. The thing about it is all our
Speaker 2: girls know what's happening. It's like just how it works,
Speaker 2: what your survival. But where the real predatory stuff starts
Speaker 2: for me is I got sick of this guy and
Speaker 2: I end up moving out of there. And first one
Speaker 2: is I meet this guy at the park named Ken
Speaker 2: Foggerty and who I've had convicted and charged. He says
Speaker 2: to me, I'll give you money, and he raped me.
Speaker 2: It didn't turn out the way it should have, you know,
Speaker 2: like he actually abused me quite savagely. And then one
Speaker 2: day I'm sit in the park with my girl and
Speaker 2: my friends, and these two little school girls walk in
Speaker 2: the park. One's probably about ten, maybe eleven or twelve,
Speaker 2: I don't know. They're very young, very very young. I'm
Speaker 2: not good at identifying danger for myself, but instantly I thought, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I've got to get these girls out of here. So
Speaker 2: I run over and there's this guy comes walking over
Speaker 2: and anyway he comes over. He says, I'm a counselor
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, And I said, hell you are mate,
Speaker 2: You're not taking them kids anywhere, you know. And I'm
Speaker 2: sort of standing up and I I've got twenty other
Speaker 2: kids behind me. It makes me kind of more bravee,
Speaker 2: you know. So that gives me a little bit of
Speaker 2: Dutch courage. And they like, I'm spruce and offer. Then
Speaker 2: he says, I'm a counselor. And the little people are
Speaker 2: peeling away as he's talking because he's very articulate and
Speaker 2: he's he as a counselor. He was in a refuge
Speaker 2: called the Homeless Childrens Association. Now this refuge was founded
Speaker 2: by a children's magistrate, Simon Davies, the guy the other
Speaker 2: guy had convicted. So what happens is we agree that
Speaker 2: we'll go to the refuge with him. Well, now I'm
Speaker 2: letting these kids go anywhere with him on my own,
Speaker 2: So it would be and a possive about twenty kids
Speaker 2: follow him all the way through the cross all the
Speaker 2: way down to Liverpool Street.
Speaker 1: Of this of these kids talking, kids, whether we we're talking.
Speaker 2: From twelve year old up to eighteen year olds, you know,
Speaker 2: it's quite a kid yeah, old kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And we get to this refuge, and that's Simon Davies.
Speaker 2: And I walk in and there's this guy with the
Speaker 2: whack eye looking all over the place, and he sits
Speaker 2: there and he goes, oh, you're a Glen, are you?
Speaker 2: He said, Oh, you're incredible. Look at the way all
Speaker 2: the other kids follow you. And then he's just so
Speaker 2: good at pumping my tethering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, compliments for the life that you've had, you'd be
Speaker 1: taking all the compliments he can get.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. And the other thing that he said
Speaker 2: to me was he said, let me tell you your story.
Speaker 2: He said, I'd say that your mum and dad are
Speaker 2: probably alcoholics or addicts. You've probably spent most of your
Speaker 2: time in institution. Came more. Amazing, Yeah, amazing, man, How
Speaker 2: does he know all this about me?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: And it's because he's met a hundred other Glens, you know.
Speaker 2: And but what ends up happening is about a week
Speaker 2: after we move into this refuge with all so the
Speaker 2: part that's always carry good with me is that I
Speaker 2: go back to the kids and I say, oh, there's
Speaker 2: a refuge we can stay in. We'll have to drink,
Speaker 2: we can take drugs, we can have our girlfriend sleep
Speaker 2: in the same bed. The only rule is no vile,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's riding King's Grass.
Speaker 1: And thinking you've found paradise.
Speaker 2: Paradise. Yeah, so we move in there. What I don't
Speaker 2: know is that the five men working there are all pedophiles.
Speaker 2: It's an actual ring of predators who have targeted children,
Speaker 2: you know. And I can say this because I've had
Speaker 2: four of them convicted, you know. So about a week
Speaker 2: into my stay there, I'm sitting in the office and
Speaker 2: he says, I've got a bottle of scotch you want
Speaker 2: to drink, And I'm like, you don't let me drink alcohol.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'll do that. I've never been drunk, right,
Speaker 2: but I'll do that. So I'm drinking scotch. And then
Speaker 2: this other guy, who I've a convicted, Paul Jones, he
Speaker 2: walks in and he goes, I've got these pillows. They're
Speaker 2: called mandies. If you want one, So what do they do?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you love it makes your fun bang. I take
Speaker 2: that too. I'm sitting there playing guitar. The next thing
Speaker 2: I know is I wake up in the morning. I'm
Speaker 2: semi naked, and I'm getting snippets of the night and
Speaker 2: I'm like fucking's happened again, you know, Like that's what
Speaker 2: I'm going through. And I literally walk out of the
Speaker 2: refuge and I walk up to Grant Morris, who I've
Speaker 2: also convicted, and I said, I've been raped and he
Speaker 2: goes by who Glen Bye? Who? And I tell him
Speaker 2: and then his face goes lily white and he goes,
Speaker 2: I'll meet you tonight at the Cloan I think it
Speaker 2: was called the Clown your Cafe. Come and talk to
Speaker 2: me and we'll sort this out. And I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2: And then I go up to the cross and I
Speaker 2: sit down with my girlfriend and I heer'sally talking about her.
Speaker 2: She sits on my lap. She puts her nase on
Speaker 2: me all the time, and she used to say, you
Speaker 2: know the song Vincent Starry Starry Night. She's always sending
Speaker 2: that something to me and she's yeah, and she used
Speaker 2: to put her nase on and sing this song and
Speaker 2: she used to go, the world doesn't know you like
Speaker 2: I know you, Glenn. You're such a beautiful person, you know.
Speaker 2: And she tall that to me all the time, and
Speaker 2: she said, but I know something's not right, what's going on?
Speaker 2: And I was too scared to tell her you know,
Speaker 2: like I didn't want to say what's happened, so I
Speaker 2: go to this. I also run into Annie Crow, who's
Speaker 2: the woman who also works at the refuge, and I
Speaker 2: tell her. When I arrived at the cafe, Grant Morris,
Speaker 2: Simon Davies were all at the cafe and I sit
Speaker 2: down with him, and then Grant jumped and he goes
Speaker 2: every child he has an adult that looks after him.
Speaker 2: That's how King's Cross works. You know, you're over reacting,
Speaker 2: you know, like do you want to leave refuge and
Speaker 2: all your mates go? You know, like it's like suddenly
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, what have I done wrong? Have I
Speaker 2: done something wrong?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: What they taught me was that my body was a commodity,
Speaker 2: and I started to learn that I be can't. I
Speaker 2: started taking drugs and to block out what's going on,
Speaker 2: and then the money. I'm spreading it out with my
Speaker 2: friends because I'm a people pleaser and I want to
Speaker 2: please everyone, so you know, I've got all these things
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 1: It's a horrible situation, but you can see how it's
Speaker 1: very scripted in the way that they drag and drag
Speaker 1: you in. They find find the kids, and then manipulate
Speaker 1: the situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And I mean like they give you
Speaker 2: all this stuff and then they were going to take
Speaker 2: it all away. And plus the police are their friends.
Speaker 2: Everyone knew what was happening in this place, you know.
Speaker 2: And in nine and eighty three January, another guy who
Speaker 2: runs a refuge comes to the refuge and he says
Speaker 2: two he calls in the judge and a general, right,
Speaker 2: and who run the refuge, And he says, Simon Davis's
Speaker 2: abusing your children. They call Simon Davies in and they
Speaker 2: say you can no longer be the CEO, or you
Speaker 2: can no longer reside at four two nine. But they
Speaker 2: never report the crime. They never come to the refuge,
Speaker 2: nor do they check if he lives at the refuge.
Speaker 2: And he resides there for another eight months with the
Speaker 2: other four men who are abusing us kids.
Speaker 1: It's got that stink of the church, isn't it like
Speaker 1: protecting protecting their reputation because a lot of them had
Speaker 1: a good reputation. Yeah, well so called good reputation, and
Speaker 1: that's what they were doing. Hey, guys, it's Gary Jubilan here.
Speaker 1: Want they get more out of I catch killers, then
Speaker 1: you should head over to our new video feed on
Speaker 1: Spotify where you can watch every episode of VI Catch Killers.
Speaker 1: Just search for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify
Speaker 1: app and start watching today. With that environment, your story
Speaker 1: is that your story very typical for other kids, the
Speaker 1: way they get caught up in it. Were the girls
Speaker 1: abused as well?
Speaker 2: Or now where the girls were and all the boys were,
Speaker 2: or the girls were in a different way. They were
Speaker 2: going out at some point, and they have in somewhere
Speaker 2: in strip clubs, some when in become into prostitution. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I just so what happened in August? I come home
Speaker 2: with a couple of kids and two of the other
Speaker 2: people that work in the refuge a standing there and
Speaker 2: they say the refuge is being closed. And they said
Speaker 2: we can no longer stay here. And I said, yous
Speaker 2: can go. We're not fucking out anywhere. And I just
Speaker 2: stopped my footing, you know, so us kids stay in
Speaker 2: this refuge. I contacted a journalist who came and put
Speaker 2: us on the front page of the paper. We're on
Speaker 2: the paper, you know, like it's I remember it's August,
Speaker 2: the first issue in the Telegraph in August of nine
Speaker 2: and eighty three. So what happened is about two weeks
Speaker 2: after our stay there, the police come in the morning,
Speaker 2: about six o'clock and arrest is like they come for everywhere,
Speaker 2: you know, and they take us all off to Bajura.
Speaker 1: We'll just break this down so I make sure with
Speaker 1: the story. Yeah, yeah, the refugees supposedly shut down that
Speaker 1: you guys, we're not leaving. Yeah, cops have turned up.
Speaker 1: The next day. You get charge with whatever charge was
Speaker 1: placed on you.
Speaker 2: The rest all of us, every one of thems got
Speaker 2: some kind of warrant for wanted for something in the past.
Speaker 2: I'm literally the only one that didn't because I didn't
Speaker 2: do crimes. So I get let out. But what happens
Speaker 2: is I start speaking about our abuse. This is where
Speaker 2: I start talking to police. I start saying, this is
Speaker 2: what's going on. But what's happening is and this is
Speaker 2: a big part of the story that people don't understanding.
Speaker 2: King Cross. People were picking up kids at the wall,
Speaker 2: at the park and places like this. They were taking
Speaker 2: them to established in the Cross. They're being filmed. So
Speaker 2: what happened is the people that are filming it are
Speaker 2: now compromising these people who are coming in and touching
Speaker 2: these children right, So that's kind of how it works.
Speaker 2: So what ends up happening is I start speaking, I
Speaker 2: get out, and then the next time I'm sitting in
Speaker 2: the park with one another girl and a friend, and
Speaker 2: these two police walk over to me and they said
Speaker 2: that to him, and they grabbed me and they charged
Speaker 2: me with a Sultan robbery. So I get put into
Speaker 2: minda another institution for a crime I didn't do. And
Speaker 2: then in December they take me to court into Bajura.
Speaker 2: They dismissed the charge, but they play to be into
Speaker 2: the custody of my primary abuser, Simon Davies in Carton
Speaker 2: Crescent in Summer Hill.
Speaker 1: Run just break that down again, so you would charge
Speaker 1: your bar refuse you're putting the custody. The charges would
Speaker 1: drop when the hearing actually took place. But you were
Speaker 1: then sent from the court. And how old are we
Speaker 1: at this stage?
Speaker 2: So now about sixteen?
Speaker 1: Okay? From the court? Ye to live with Simon Davies,
Speaker 1: the person that you've been saying has been abusing that's right, yeah,
Speaker 1: to live with him.
Speaker 2: And the same court where that person was made aware
Speaker 2: in the beginning of eighty three of him abusing me,
Speaker 2: where he was systematically removed supposedly as a CEO and
Speaker 2: able to live at the.
Speaker 1: Refuge, Right, how did that work out? Did you go there?
Speaker 1: Or just I did?
Speaker 2: And so I actually don't think I had to, but
Speaker 2: I just because I was such so kid at like
Speaker 2: the systems.
Speaker 1: Life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So I'm doing what I believe I'm
Speaker 2: supposed to do. But after about two weeks of sleeping
Speaker 2: in his bed with him in his room in his
Speaker 2: parents home, his sister comes up to me one day
Speaker 2: and he says, Glenn, you should not be sleeping in
Speaker 2: that bedroom with that with Simon. What is going on here?
Speaker 2: She confront her parents. So the parents end up kicking
Speaker 2: us out or kicking me out, and he puts me
Speaker 2: into a flat and he leaves me in this place
Speaker 2: with this guy that runs it, and he says, I'll
Speaker 2: leave you here for the night, and he said I'll
Speaker 2: be back tomorrow. He didn't come back for two weeks.
Speaker 2: He just left me there, and then I remember sitting
Speaker 2: there waiting for that knock knock, knock knock, and he said,
Speaker 2: come on, mate, your dad's not coming. I told him
Speaker 2: he was my dad. Your dad's not coming back, mate,
Speaker 2: And he opened up and kicks me out. And that's
Speaker 2: where I, you know, I start to realize what's happening.
Speaker 2: But the problem is, and this is the part of
Speaker 2: my shore I don't like sharing. I'm now a heroin
Speaker 2: addict and the only way I know how to survive
Speaker 2: his prostitution, right, And that's what's happened.
Speaker 1: So and well, what works in the favor of the
Speaker 1: predators that's trying to get you addicted, and so you'll
Speaker 1: do anything for the addictions you've been dragged into. That
Speaker 1: and that that was a cycle in the Cross st
Speaker 1: that's your story, but that's a sort of generic tale
Speaker 1: on how kids end up in the cross getting abused
Speaker 1: and getting addicted addicted to drugs.
Speaker 2: I saw so many kids, Gary, and I can name
Speaker 2: so many of them that would arrive these beautiful, big,
Speaker 2: smiling kids. The next thing you see them in a club,
Speaker 2: stripping or whatever. You know, a year later, they've overdose, suicided,
Speaker 2: being murdered, or they're just a cringe of who they
Speaker 2: were walking up and down on the street of William
Speaker 2: Street's now trying to work for themselves because they're no
Speaker 2: longer a commodity to the club, you know, because they
Speaker 2: don't look the good anymore.
Speaker 1: What about the policing the and I want to talk
Speaker 1: in part two about you giving evidence at the Royal Commission,
Speaker 1: So just talking in general sense that, yeah, the policing
Speaker 1: in King's Cross maybe, well, no, I'm not knowing if
Speaker 1: I know there's good cops and I know there's bad cops,
Speaker 1: and they were certainly identified in the Royal Commission where
Speaker 1: flush some people out. But even that in the world
Speaker 1: of policing is yeah, it's one thing. Taking the dollar,
Speaker 1: that's another thing. If you're turning a blind eye to
Speaker 1: kids being sexually abused. What's your take on that environment.
Speaker 2: So what the police were doing was they would if
Speaker 2: I went into the police and said this is what's
Speaker 2: happened to me, they would then go to the pedophile
Speaker 2: and say this is our roles. You give us ten
Speaker 2: thousand or we have you charged, and then what would
Speaker 2: happen was they'd pay, so they'd have them in the
Speaker 2: pocket and often they come back to us, or not
Speaker 2: come back to us at all and lock us up
Speaker 2: or for a fictitious crime, which is what kind of happened.
Speaker 2: You know, the police were may I cannot emphasize enough
Speaker 2: the evilness of the police at King's Cross and I
Speaker 2: won't name them all, but there were so many. I mean,
Speaker 2: one of them at Courting Glee you're probably aready, grabbed
Speaker 2: me by my throat and pushed me up against the
Speaker 2: wall and he said, if I hear any more complaints
Speaker 2: from you, he said, you'll be floating in the river.
Speaker 2: They used to call me miss dron Budsmen. And the
Speaker 2: funny thing about it was someone on my behalf Rada,
Speaker 2: led us the ONM Budsman about police beating me up
Speaker 2: really savagely. One time. I didn't even do it, but
Speaker 2: they thought that I had, so every time they see
Speaker 2: me that go yere, he is miss dron Budsmen. And
Speaker 2: these were some of the most dangerous. Like back then,
Speaker 2: I was a little cocky. I didn't know what I
Speaker 2: know now, and that they were dangerous. These police were
Speaker 2: very dangerous. And there's nothing worse than you know, they
Speaker 2: have the power to do whatever they want. You know,
Speaker 2: you can't do anything about it.
Speaker 1: Well, it's power that can be abused, and this is
Speaker 1: your your version of it. I don't think I'm knowing.
Speaker 1: It must have been some good cops in there that
Speaker 1: push it back against that type of thing. If that
Speaker 1: because I'm just trying to think all the cops I know,
Speaker 1: if I can't even comprehend one that would buy into that.
Speaker 1: But I'm not doubting what you've said. And there was
Speaker 1: a history of it, and I suppose not just cops.
Speaker 1: People knew what was going on. There was businessmen. There
Speaker 1: was all sorts of people and turned in a blind
Speaker 1: eye because the money was being made and let's not
Speaker 1: kill the cash cow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, And because that's what it was about,
Speaker 2: the money. The children of the Cross were the commodity.
Speaker 2: They were the commodity, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 2: then they had the dealers that were also being protected
Speaker 2: by police. I'm telling you it happened, and you are right,
Speaker 2: there is a handful of good coppers in there. I
Speaker 2: had the police if someone got murdered in across. I
Speaker 2: don't know the whole story, but they rested me on it.
Speaker 2: And this other copy that walked in and he goes,
Speaker 2: I know this kid, he hasn't got a violent bone
Speaker 2: in his body, you know, And they ended up letting
Speaker 2: me go. So there was those that did have empathy.
Speaker 2: And there's others who have brought me food at different times.
Speaker 2: What about the gangsters, the bikes and all that. What
Speaker 2: was their role in this, because they must have known
Speaker 2: it was going on. Did they pull anyone in the
Speaker 2: line or no? The bikers were okay. The bikers are
Speaker 2: actually quite good with kids. They really were. And I
Speaker 2: mean although WA used to sell for the bikers at
Speaker 2: a very young age. You probably read that in my book.
Speaker 2: I was selling I won't say what club, but I
Speaker 2: was selling speed for the bikers. They were all very
Speaker 2: good to me and protected me that way. In fact,
Speaker 2: one of the stories you're probably read in my book
Speaker 2: was I was walking down the street, yeah, and this
Speaker 2: guy biker walks up to me and he goes grab
Speaker 2: me by my ear, like literally had my ear and
Speaker 2: dragged me down to the porkies. And the guy was
Speaker 2: being wheeled out on a gurney and he pulls the
Speaker 2: blanket up. Ambler's drivers are horrified and they just step
Speaker 2: back because he's a big boy, right, And he goes,
Speaker 2: see that you want to hit? He said, I'll give
Speaker 2: you a hit, guaranteed to put John on it every time,
Speaker 2: you know, Like he was trying to help, but it
Speaker 2: didn't work. Once I was in I was in.
Speaker 1: And what about the working girls as well, because you
Speaker 1: got you got some people that were sort of doing
Speaker 1: their best to keep an eye out for the kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ones that looked after me, the mayor, for
Speaker 2: the people you at least expect. They were likers, street strippers, prostitutes,
Speaker 2: and heroin addicts. They like, you know, they that was
Speaker 2: log eat dog in some parts of the world. But
Speaker 2: when it comes to kids, they did protect us. They looked.
Speaker 2: I mean, they see me. For Sally Anne, she used
Speaker 2: to give me around all the time regards She's say,
Speaker 2: don't you buy back and arroon? So I don't want
Speaker 2: to got heron's gun buy something. The food, I'll take it,
Speaker 2: she said. She take me to this place called the
Speaker 2: Asteria or the Cosmopolitan.
Speaker 1: Sally Ane huckscept talking there, I thought.
Speaker 2: She was like, I want to be honest, when she
Speaker 2: started telling me all about what's going on the cross
Speaker 2: as a very young age, I'm just saying to eat
Speaker 2: my food, yes, Sally, you know, like yeah, okay, Sally,
Speaker 2: you know it's like it's just it's just like I
Speaker 2: think she you know, we got these tin fall hats
Speaker 2: these days. That's what Sally kind of I thought when
Speaker 2: I first met her, because the way she talked about
Speaker 2: and you'd be careful of this person, you be careful
Speaker 2: of this. But she was really coming from a loving place,
Speaker 2: you know, and she's not alone. There was many of them,
Speaker 2: ros Sam, There's so many street workers who would see
Speaker 2: a little boy like me and it was almost like
Speaker 2: they'd have dop me, you know. It was like have
Speaker 2: you eaten today, little fellow?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: It comes sleep on my lounge, you know, and they'd
Speaker 2: all look after me. But at the same time they
Speaker 2: were still supporting their own heroin habits.
Speaker 1: It's so fucked up, isn't it. The people, the people
Speaker 1: that you would think would you'd be at risk from,
Speaker 1: they're the ones that were protecting you, and that they
Speaker 1: were they should be protecting you. You were at risk from. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. The system. Yeah, just before we move on
Speaker 1: the Cross these days, have you got the sense of its?
Speaker 1: Has it changed?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I mean I go on the Cross every week
Speaker 2: be as you know, because I work on the streets
Speaker 2: now and it's completely changed. It's different, completely different dynamic,
Speaker 2: the ambience, the whole feel of the Cross is different.
Speaker 2: There's still a flicker of it and there's still the
Speaker 2: shooting gallery in kirktain Raid, and there's a couple of
Speaker 2: strip clubs. But for the most I mean, you've got
Speaker 2: to be a billionairely there these days made it.
Speaker 1: Demographics of I get that that sense, Well, we might
Speaker 1: we might take a break for part one. I'll further
Speaker 1: listener warning, you think Glenn's life couldn't get much worse
Speaker 1: at this stage why he's described, but we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about it. And there were things that rock you,
Speaker 1: rock you to the core, but there's a positive, so
Speaker 1: we're better dangle that carrot at the end. You're hearing
Speaker 1: Glenn talk and if anyone should be better and broken
Speaker 1: that Glenn. But that's not the sense I'm getting. So
Speaker 1: we're going to take Glenn even deeper into the troubles
Speaker 1: that he's experienced in his life, but we'll also cover
Speaker 1: off on how he turned his life around. The good
Speaker 1: work you're doing there.
Speaker 2: Awesome cheers