Speaker 1: Welcome to Something to Talk About the Stella Podcast. I'm
Speaker 1: Sarah Lamarquin, your host and Stella's editor in chief. Every
Speaker 1: week I sit down with some of the biggest names
Speaker 1: in the country because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk,
Speaker 1: they come to Something to Talk About. It's Amanda Keller's
Speaker 1: job to share snippets of her private life. For the
Speaker 1: past nineteen years, she's co hosted a breakfast radio show
Speaker 1: where she has laid bare many family details at times,
Speaker 1: as she's the first to admit a little too many.
Speaker 1: But there was something that Amanda kept secret for a
Speaker 1: long time, and then late last year on her podcast,
Speaker 1: Amanda revealed that her husband of thirty four years, Harley,
Speaker 1: had been living with Parkinson's for the past six years.
Speaker 1: As a confessed oversharer, this was one thing Amanda couldn't
Speaker 1: share until she was ready.
Speaker 2: And I'm really proud of how we are, well not
Speaker 2: always how I try and navigate it with him, how
Speaker 2: we are doing this as a team, and the fact
Speaker 2: that we are a team. That's what we said, you
Speaker 2: said on our anniversary, we said, aren't we lucky that
Speaker 2: despite all the rest of it, that the nut of
Speaker 2: love is still there.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, Amanda joins me to talk about Harley,
Speaker 1: their two adult sons, Jack and Liam, whether or not
Speaker 1: she'll ever consider a role on television again, and why
Speaker 1: she's forgiven Tom Gleeson, the man many believe robbed her
Speaker 1: of a well deserved gold LOGI five years ago, Amanda Keller,
Speaker 1: welcome to something to talk about.
Speaker 3: I'm thrilled to be here. Hello. I wanted to.
Speaker 1: Open our conversation by asking about something that is really
Speaker 1: quite poignant. You revealed last year that your husband Harley,
Speaker 1: had been diagnosed with Parkinson's around six years earlier. Do
Speaker 1: you mind if I start by not at all how
Speaker 1: you're all doing, How you're doing, of course, how Harlee's doing,
Speaker 1: in your two sons.
Speaker 2: I've bought a tissue just in case, because every time
Speaker 2: I talk about it, sometimes I'm fine, and sometimes it
Speaker 2: gets a bit overwhelming. Look, Harley's quite remarkable. He's so
Speaker 2: pragmatic with this. He just gets on with it. And
Speaker 2: I've gone through a phase of being angry because I'd
Speaker 2: say things like, oh, come on, stand upright, or your voice.
Speaker 2: You know, I knew what was it he'd been diagnosed.
Speaker 2: I knew what was going on, but I found it
Speaker 2: hard to accept it all. And I just feel now
Speaker 2: I'm very much on the path of acceptance, or that
Speaker 2: radical acceptance as we speak about. Some days that's a
Speaker 2: phrase that I'm trying to live and other days I
Speaker 2: do feel it. But we're both on the same page now.
Speaker 2: I think for a while I was kind of fighting it.
Speaker 2: And as I said, Harley is quite remarkable in his
Speaker 2: approach to this, and because of that, the boys just
Speaker 2: get on with it. To our sons, it's hard for
Speaker 2: them because they don't live at home anymore. And I
Speaker 2: see Harley every day. And was my son's twenty first birthday,
Speaker 2: and I got very emotional talking on air about how
Speaker 2: it felt to be going to that without him, and
Speaker 2: how he is normally the archivist of our lives and
Speaker 2: he would have done the audio visuals and he would
Speaker 2: have done a speech and all of this. I just
Speaker 2: felt wrong that I was going without him. And then
Speaker 2: not long into the evening, my friend said, Harley's here,
Speaker 2: and as a surprise, he'd organized with a friend and
Speaker 2: a driver to get him there. And I still feel
Speaker 2: very emotional about it because I thought he I know
Speaker 2: how hard it was for him to do that, but
Speaker 2: how amazing that he did, How amazing that he did,
Speaker 2: And in that moment, I think the love I had
Speaker 2: for him and for our family. I just thought, he's
Speaker 2: still him, and he is still him, and the other
Speaker 2: physical things are going on around it, but the heart
Speaker 2: of him is still him, and the brain of him
Speaker 2: is still him, and it was a great reminder. So
Speaker 2: some other people were shock because I hadn't seen him
Speaker 2: for a while, but I was just so proud that
Speaker 2: he was vanity free. He thought, it's too important for
Speaker 2: me to be here, and the rest of it just
Speaker 2: didn't matter.
Speaker 1: Did your son Jack whose twenty first birthday did he know?
Speaker 3: No, none of us was coming.
Speaker 2: None of us knew, and so it was a wonderful
Speaker 2: rush for all of us to have him there. So
Speaker 2: Harley sayd for about an hour, was there for the speeches,
Speaker 2: and friends come up to say hello to him, and
Speaker 2: then he went home and then you know, the dancing
Speaker 2: and the rest of it continued. But it was so important,
Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful that he appreciate the importance. And
Speaker 2: also the fact he didn't tell me he was coming
Speaker 2: kind of gave me a night off because I would
Speaker 2: have tried to.
Speaker 3: That's my problem is I try.
Speaker 2: And micromanage everything and make everything all right for everybody,
Speaker 2: and this isn't going to be all right for everybody.
Speaker 2: So I'm exhausting myself. So the fact that I could
Speaker 2: turn up without having to think about how he was
Speaker 2: going to get there made my night so much easier too.
Speaker 1: What an amazing twenty four birthday gift you absolutely and
Speaker 1: for him to say, how could I not be here?
Speaker 3: That will stay with Jack forever.
Speaker 1: I think every time there's a diagnosis in a family,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, everyone is often on a really steep
Speaker 1: learning curve, especially if it is something that you might
Speaker 1: not necessarily have even thought very much about or known
Speaker 1: very much about. Has it been, to put it mildly,
Speaker 1: an incredibly steep learning curve for.
Speaker 2: You, interestingly only through living through it. Harley's a big
Speaker 2: science head, so he knew the science, he knew the story,
Speaker 2: but he chose not to be doctor Google and some
Speaker 2: friends at the beginning were saying, hey, here's some remedies
Speaker 2: I've seen, and it was showing people at the very
Speaker 2: tail end, and so he thought, I don't want those
Speaker 2: images in my head, so neither us I've remained quite
Speaker 2: pollannerish on this in that I haven't deep dived on
Speaker 2: a medical story. I'm living it as it happens. And
Speaker 2: part of that is choosing to be naive, almost like
Speaker 2: taking the easy way out, because if you're going to
Speaker 2: I don't know what preparedness does for you, apart from
Speaker 2: panic you so probably to my detriment, because maybe I
Speaker 2: should have been more prepared, but I'm learning as we go,
Speaker 2: and neither of us need to know more than that
Speaker 2: as we go.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Gosh, can I just object to the words easy
Speaker 1: way out?
Speaker 3: There's no easy way out?
Speaker 2: But I know what I'm like, and I'd be prone
Speaker 2: to overthinking and panic and trying to fix things so
Speaker 2: out of my control. And I saw a great woman.
Speaker 2: I see this fantastic woman. She's a kinesiologist, but she's
Speaker 2: a fabulous therapist. And she said to me very early on,
Speaker 2: you're in a boat beside Harley. You can't paddle his boat,
Speaker 2: and you take his agency away by trying to. Because
Speaker 2: we'd had a similar conversation when my son left home
Speaker 2: and I still want to cry about that too. She said,
Speaker 2: you have to let his boat go. And I said,
Speaker 2: can I be in the back of the boat, and
Speaker 2: she said, you can be in the back of the boat,
Speaker 2: but it's his, it's his shining light that's navigating it.
Speaker 2: And it's kind of similar with Harley in a way
Speaker 2: that I know I'm trying to I'm trying to make
Speaker 2: everything right for everybody, and A, you can't because you'll
Speaker 2: exhaust yourself, but B that's not what's right for everybody.
Speaker 2: So it is that radical acceptance thing of I'm in
Speaker 2: a boat alongside and she said to me, maybe all
Speaker 2: you have to do is to love him, and psychologically
Speaker 2: that makes so much sense, and that's harder to live
Speaker 2: by sometimes, but that's there the thoughts I have in
Speaker 2: my head of trying to be alongside him and not
Speaker 2: be in his face and just let him deal it
Speaker 2: with the grace that he is.
Speaker 1: I think you've just given voice to and experience. So
Speaker 1: many people would relate to Amanda, because that's I think.
Speaker 1: While we use the word helpless, isn't it when somebody
Speaker 1: we know is dealing with something that we can't make
Speaker 1: better for them, and it is part of what is
Speaker 1: so difficult, so difficult these situations in life that are
Speaker 1: beyond our control.
Speaker 2: I feel am I being selfish in not trying to
Speaker 2: in today and not fixing it for him? Is it
Speaker 2: okay just to be? And of course it is, and
Speaker 2: he'd prefer that. So taking a step back for all
Speaker 2: of us is something I'm trying to do.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you a little bit? Are you and
Speaker 1: Harley being married for a very long time?
Speaker 3: Thirty four years? Yesterday?
Speaker 1: Oh? Congratulations? Thirty four years? And that is an amazing
Speaker 1: innings And every relationship, every long term relationship, every marriage
Speaker 1: has its chapters, seasons eras as Taylor Swift, we'll probably
Speaker 1: call it. I'm sure we'll hear a song about that
Speaker 1: thirty four years from now. I imagine the different things that
Speaker 1: you and Harley have been through, like a lot of
Speaker 1: couples that you have children, you know, struggles with creating
Speaker 1: a family. You know, they're struggling with infertility. Then you've
Speaker 1: got young children, You've got periods where you're both dealing
Speaker 1: with chaos at work or great times at work, extreme busyness.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a little bit. As you mentioned,
Speaker 1: your boys aren't living at home now, you know, the
Speaker 1: empty nest, this particular situation, what you have navigated this
Speaker 1: past six years together with his diagnosis. Is that something
Speaker 1: that has forged the partnership even more? And as the
Speaker 1: second part of that question, do you think it's something
Speaker 1: that you could have survived thirty four years ago, thirty
Speaker 1: years ago.
Speaker 3: Twenty four years ago.
Speaker 2: I found a card the other day as a postcard
Speaker 2: of two older people asleeping deck chairs with their mouths
Speaker 2: might open on a cruise. And it must have been
Speaker 2: very early in our relationship. I remember it used to
Speaker 2: be on our window sill and before we got married,
Speaker 2: and I said, here is mister and missus Harley Oliver,
Speaker 2: forty years from now at the old People's Home. I'll
Speaker 2: love you forever beyond two thousand, because we met it
Speaker 2: beyond two thousand, and I suddenly thought, we're at thirty
Speaker 2: four years. You click your fingers and you're there. And
Speaker 2: I take great pride. I don't want to be too weepy,
Speaker 2: but I take great pride in what we've navigated. And
Speaker 2: I do think in a way a friend of mine,
Speaker 2: I use the word there's a certain exquisite nature to
Speaker 2: the love when it's like this, an exquisite in the
Speaker 2: way it can be painful to life. You've got to
Speaker 2: lose tooth and you're pressing. It's an exquisite pain, but
Speaker 2: an exquisite love. And I'm really proud of how we are,
Speaker 2: well not always how I try and navigate it with him,
Speaker 2: how we are doing this as a team, and the
Speaker 2: fact that we are a team. And so we said,
Speaker 2: yes said in our anniversary we said, aren't we lucky
Speaker 2: that despite all the rest of it, the nut of love.
Speaker 3: Is still there?
Speaker 2: And it probably have been times when you're too busy
Speaker 2: to actually think about that, whereas we've really had to
Speaker 2: choose that, and I know it is a choice and
Speaker 2: I don't always express it. I can be impatient and
Speaker 2: cranky and all those things with it, but the nut
Speaker 2: of it is, I'm very conscious that we are leaning
Speaker 2: in to who we are now and leaning into all
Speaker 2: that this experienced through us, which isn't all terrible.
Speaker 3: There's an absolute.
Speaker 2: Tightness between us now and I'm sort of experiencing all
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Speaking of exquisite love, which was a beautiful phrase that
Speaker 1: you just used exquisite pain to mentioned your sons. So
Speaker 1: of course, Jack, as we just talked about, turned twenty
Speaker 1: one recently and Liam is twenty three just last week,
Speaker 1: so the empty nest syndrome. I don't know what we're
Speaker 1: calling it in twenty twenty four. You may have a
Speaker 1: much more modern take on it. How are you and
Speaker 1: Harley feeling about that side of things? You know?
Speaker 2: I think the preparing for it and the imagining of
Speaker 2: it is worse than the reality of it. Liam left
Speaker 2: to go to new University in Newcastle four years ago,
Speaker 2: and I found that hard, really hard. And then Jack
Speaker 2: he went to live on campus but in Sydney, and
Speaker 2: I thought I'd never get used to it. But Jack's
Speaker 2: a party animal, and so meeting up at four in
Speaker 2: the morning and him getting home at two kind of
Speaker 2: had a slight clash to it. So to my shock,
Speaker 2: I found that it was okay. I found that it
Speaker 2: was okay. They're both now in Sydney. They don't, as
Speaker 2: I said, they don't live at home, but I see
Speaker 2: a lot more of Liam than I used to, and
Speaker 2: Jack makes a real effort to and talk most days,
Speaker 2: so I feel okay with it in a way I
Speaker 2: never pictured. The boys went to a school where they
Speaker 2: had an experience in year nine where they go away
Speaker 2: for a whole term half a year.
Speaker 3: Pretty much.
Speaker 2: I think it was they have an outdoors education for
Speaker 2: six months.
Speaker 1: It's a long time.
Speaker 2: It's a long time, and it's when they're in year nine.
Speaker 2: So how old are you in year nine? Thirteen forteen.
Speaker 1: So my oldest son's in year nine, he's about to
Speaker 1: turn fifteen years.
Speaker 2: And I found that's so challenging because it's the first
Speaker 2: time I had to put myself second to what was
Speaker 2: good for them. And they were allowed to make phone.
Speaker 2: There's no email, they had to write letters home, and
Speaker 2: whether they having a good time or a bad time,
Speaker 2: you weren't in charge. And I thought it was quite
Speaker 2: profound because the whole point of it was that as
Speaker 2: helicopter parents, suddenly the kids could prove themselves with each
Speaker 2: other and start to look for camaraderie in each other
Speaker 2: and strength that wasn't to do with your parents' perception
Speaker 2: of you. I found it quite profound the experience that
Speaker 2: they had. But I found that really hard. And that's
Speaker 2: one because they leave. There is so little when they go,
Speaker 2: so I found that hard. And then the dreading. I
Speaker 2: thought it'd be those emotions again when they actually left home,
Speaker 2: but by the time they did, I was kind of
Speaker 2: ready for it. And now I'm so used to it,
Speaker 2: and now I can just go to bed early. I
Speaker 2: don't have to think about it anyone. You know, Harley's okay,
Speaker 2: I'm okay the end. So it's shockingly it's okay.
Speaker 1: My boys are turning thirteen and fifteen, so.
Speaker 2: You can't imagine when they're that age. You can't imagine
Speaker 2: a moment where they're not in your care.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, when you said six months, I know though I
Speaker 1: was six months, because even a night feels like somehow.
Speaker 2: And I always embarrassed him because I cry every time
Speaker 2: I tell this story. But at one point we were
Speaker 2: climbing up you have to the parents go and do
Speaker 2: hikes with the kids a couple of times during that
Speaker 2: and they're really hard going hikes. And at one point
Speaker 2: Lim said, I'll help you get to the top here,
Speaker 2: and I had a flash to his very first day
Speaker 2: of school.
Speaker 3: We're at the top of the stairs.
Speaker 2: He said, I don't think I can do it, and
Speaker 2: I said, come on, I'll help you out, and I
Speaker 2: suddenly it was in a blink of an eye, which
Speaker 2: swapped and he was my guide.
Speaker 3: And that's the whole point of that whole experience.
Speaker 2: And I had it in that sentence, just amazing, trying.
Speaker 3: To teary through all of that.
Speaker 1: Obviously, it's at that moment where they over take you
Speaker 1: in height.
Speaker 3: Isn't that weird too?
Speaker 2: That is weird because we express love for a small boy,
Speaker 2: your children not being weird, but you know, cuddles and kisses,
Speaker 2: and suddenly when they're men, it's a very different physical dynamic.
Speaker 2: But the first time he's in a restaurant, I thought,
Speaker 2: oh the wayters come behind me and it was Liam
Speaker 2: and I was so shocked that it was my thirteen
Speaker 2: year old who was taller than me.
Speaker 3: I got such a shock. And then that just keeps going,
Speaker 3: going and going.
Speaker 1: I listened recently to a voice message that one of
Speaker 1: my sons had left, and I picked it up, and
Speaker 1: if you ever had anything like this? He said, Oh
Speaker 1: hi Mom, And I'm listening thinking who is this man?
Speaker 1: It wasn't that boy's voice. So my younger boy, who's
Speaker 1: still twelve, sounds very different. That's another moment in terms
Speaker 1: of and.
Speaker 2: I've always tried to be gracious and accept all those moments.
Speaker 2: But also I lost my mom twenty years ago, and
Speaker 2: I want to say to her because I just left home,
Speaker 2: didn't look back, and I thought, did she feel like this?
Speaker 3: And how I want to say? G I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I was so ungracious, you know, And because I thought
Speaker 2: my life began when I left home, I thought, how
Speaker 2: dare my son's lives be beginning after me?
Speaker 3: How can that be?
Speaker 2: So I try and remind myself to be gracious, and
Speaker 2: if they don't return with text or something, I think, gee,
Speaker 2: you know we went overseason, never kept in touch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it looking back at those
Speaker 1: moments and seeing it through that lens when you talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, telling embarrassing stories. A lot of people parents
Speaker 1: are now navigating the oversharing on social media. Conversation for you, Amanda,
Speaker 1: you've worked in FM radio for a long time. Obviously
Speaker 1: you're one half of Jonesy and Amanda the Breakfast Show
Speaker 1: in Sydney, but you've worked for really all of their lives.
Speaker 1: Were there moments in the pre social media era when
Speaker 1: they were growing up where there were stories you're telling
Speaker 1: me because everyone knows how that FM, particularly radio, for
Speaker 1: their moments where you got pushback from them during that time.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because that's exactly what it is. You
Speaker 2: mind your own life for moments to talk about that
Speaker 2: might that other people are going through as well. When
Speaker 2: the kids were little, you could say anything because they
Speaker 2: didn't know and didn't care. But I did become aware
Speaker 2: that you have to give some thought to other people
Speaker 2: hearing these stories. And there's one in particular where and
Speaker 2: here I am telling it again. But Jack's older now,
Speaker 2: and who cares. I hope he doesn't. But I was
Speaker 2: going through a school bag and there was a one
Speaker 2: hundred sandwiches just squashed in the bottom. Week after we
Speaker 2: could just smashed them all in the bottom, and I
Speaker 2: took them all out and put them on the table
Speaker 2: and I took a photo and I said I should
Speaker 2: put this on social media. He said, oh, please, don't.
Speaker 2: And I hate myself that I didn't. But I spoke
Speaker 2: about it on air the next day and Harley said
Speaker 2: he was driving Jack to school and Jack just put
Speaker 2: his head against the back of the seat and closed
Speaker 2: his eyes. And when I heard that, I just sobbed
Speaker 2: and sobbed and sobbed, and I thought he deserves to
Speaker 2: grow up in a house where he is safe from
Speaker 2: public scrutiny in any way. I just felt so terrible.
Speaker 2: So I knew he wanted. He was learning guitar. I
Speaker 2: knew he wanted this little I think it was a ukulele.
Speaker 2: No one bought him put on his bed. But the
Speaker 2: best thing of all of this was not trying to
Speaker 2: buy his acceptance, which was stupid. What happened was when
Speaker 2: he came home from school. I just said, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 2: Please forgive me. I have no right to speak about
Speaker 2: you in a way that doesn't make you comfortable. And
Speaker 2: he said, that's okay, I don't mind, before he went upstairs,
Speaker 2: and so I guiltily brought him a present, so he'd
Speaker 2: said it.
Speaker 1: Was okay before he saw I'd bribed him.
Speaker 2: But that was such a valuable lesson to me. And
Speaker 2: now I will say, do you mind if I talk
Speaker 2: about this? To mind if I say this before I
Speaker 2: talk about stuff about them?
Speaker 3: And how did the ukulele go?
Speaker 1: I realized that it was not necessary in the end,
Speaker 1: because the good conversation, which of course is what all
Speaker 1: of us learn, isn't it, as parents, the best moment.
Speaker 1: So when you can go I'm really sorry, I stuffed up.
Speaker 3: I'm stuffed up.
Speaker 1: I'm such an important thing, that's it. I mean not
Speaker 1: to be cliched about it. But that's such a gift,
Speaker 1: isn't it for a parent to give a child, I think.
Speaker 2: And for them also to forgive you as rather than
Speaker 2: I just would have held a grudge. I was as
Speaker 2: such a grudge holders if my mother ever admitted any
Speaker 2: moment of weakness or guilt, I would have just been
Speaker 2: surly about it, which he said, Oh, that's okay, and
Speaker 2: that was the.
Speaker 1: End of it. Coming up, Amanda opens up about her
Speaker 1: new podcast and her multiple work husbands. Amanda, you are
Speaker 1: now also hosting a podcast Double a Chattery with your
Speaker 1: best friend Anita McGregor, where you talk about quote smart, dumb,
Speaker 1: topical things. I love this because I don't know what
Speaker 1: your observations are as somebody that's obviously been a consumer
Speaker 1: of media like all of us your whole life, and
Speaker 1: then worked in the media for a long time. Is
Speaker 1: that these conversations about the serious and the trivial, the
Speaker 1: light and the shade, as they used to call it,
Speaker 1: still call it a newspaper world, is something that almost
Speaker 1: every woman I know does in their own conversation. You
Speaker 1: can be talking about really heavy, intense things, and then
Speaker 1: a few minutes later it might be you know about
Speaker 1: something that happened on the Sex and the City reboot,
Speaker 1: or some gossip about Jennifer Lopez.
Speaker 2: Because that's life, isn't it, And that's how it is. Well,
Speaker 2: Anita and I. She's a forensic psychologist, which means that
Speaker 2: she's a psychologist that works within I guess, the legal
Speaker 2: or policing system. So she sees sex offenders, people who've
Speaker 2: transgressed in a variety of ways, who are in front
Speaker 2: of the courts, and she's a psychologist who sees them,
Speaker 2: and she's also working at a university teaching this the court.
Speaker 2: She runs a department, so she brings a very interesting
Speaker 2: spin to things. And she and I have gone on
Speaker 2: weekend walks for about fourteen years. We walk my dog,
Speaker 2: and that's exactly as you're saying, Sarah, what our conversations are.
Speaker 2: We'll say something incredible, she'll say something amazingly profound, like
Speaker 2: oh my god, I hadn't thought of that, and then
Speaker 2: we'll talk about picking your nose or something ridiculous. So
Speaker 2: we thought, other women like us are talking about this stuff.
Speaker 2: And I thought, having worked in the media for a
Speaker 2: long time and worked on FM radio, talk about certain
Speaker 2: topics and for a certain period of time. It'd be
Speaker 2: nice to see to have a longer chat about topics
Speaker 2: that Jones isn't necessarily interested in, but also that a
Speaker 2: forensic psychologist brings a different skew to, for example, recently
Speaker 2: the Bond Diijunction stabbings. As someone who sees who works
Speaker 2: with perpetrators of domestic violence and violence of all kinds
Speaker 2: her very kind. She's a very kind hearted person. Who said,
Speaker 2: no one should be defined by their worst act. And
Speaker 2: I said, well, what if your worst act is an
Speaker 2: act of incredible violence against someone? She said, well, the
Speaker 2: courts will determine that. She said, my job is to
Speaker 2: work out why they're doing it and how they how
Speaker 2: to stop them doing it. So she has huge compassion,
Speaker 2: and she said, if we're just going to throw money
Speaker 2: at the victims, we're just going to be pulling people
Speaker 2: out downstream. Yes, we need to fund help for the victims,
Speaker 2: but we also, she said, it's very unpopular thinking we
Speaker 2: have to fund the perpetrators. We have to fund research
Speaker 2: way up here. We have to look at who they are,
Speaker 2: what they're doing. Why we have to spend our tax
Speaker 2: dollars looking at the men? And she said, not everyone's
Speaker 2: happy to hear that, but that was her experience, and
Speaker 2: I thought, how great that we had this podcast to
Speaker 2: talk about what her skew of this was when she
Speaker 2: works with those people every day. So that's just one
Speaker 2: example of stuff. But also being of a certain age we are,
Speaker 2: we've done other topics on getting rid of your parents' stuff.
Speaker 2: I think we're the first generation to not take our parents' stuff.
Speaker 2: And when we all left home, we had to take
Speaker 2: Auntie Mabel's dining room table and this and that. Now
Speaker 2: people are living, are buying their own furniture, lighter, cheaper furniture,
Speaker 2: They're moving around more. They don't want grandma's old dining
Speaker 2: table or the corner table that just sits there and
Speaker 2: doesn't really get used. There's no obligation to take it.
Speaker 2: And parents are downsizing and no one wants their stuff.
Speaker 2: So we kind of look at a variety of age
Speaker 2: related things as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, those two are very different and fascinating topics.
Speaker 1: So you find my imagine you've already done this, but
Speaker 1: working in radio for so long, but do you find
Speaker 1: that you're both sending yourself little notes in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night, writing something down. Something happens that you
Speaker 1: observe it and you think, oh, that's the thought, because
Speaker 1: I imagine it was something like that that triggered that conversation.
Speaker 3: Well, that's right.
Speaker 2: I think it was an article I might have seen
Speaker 2: in Washington Post or something. But often an I'll be
Speaker 2: walking along and as I bend down to pick up
Speaker 2: a dog pool, we'll have discussed something. I say, take
Speaker 2: a note on your phone, and she'll send me a
Speaker 2: note that'll make no sense apart from us to us.
Speaker 2: That's this cryptic sentence. We both understand what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: You do you ever have moments where you don't, because
Speaker 1: I often send myself notes if i'm you know, like
Speaker 1: in the car and I like send a voice to
Speaker 1: text or whatever on earth that's called I clearly didn't
Speaker 1: work on beyond two thousand and a man, because I'm
Speaker 1: still struggling with what's that thing called where you're putting
Speaker 1: words in a thing. And then I'll get home it'll
Speaker 1: be something like and I'll think, what was I trying
Speaker 1: to say? Because all I've had an idea for a
Speaker 1: shoot or an interview or something, and then I'm like,
Speaker 1: I have no idea what that jumble of letters I
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 2: Too, And I texted Anita just last week and said,
Speaker 2: you know how I wrote that thing to you? Do
Speaker 2: you remember what that means? Because yes, it left my
Speaker 2: head long ago.
Speaker 1: Working with Anita on this podcast on air. In radio
Speaker 1: and TV, you have worked alongside a lot of men,
Speaker 1: so mention Brendan Jones On Jonesy and Amanda Andrew Denton,
Speaker 1: who's been a longtime collaborator on television, radio on the
Speaker 1: Living Room. Of course, I've worked with a couple of
Speaker 1: people that are very much in the stellar ecosystem, including
Speaker 1: doctor Chris Brown and Barry Dubois. Is it nice to
Speaker 1: work alongside a woman because I don't pretend to know
Speaker 1: you very well, Amanna, but you are somebody that seems
Speaker 1: like what we call terrible phrase, you know, a girl's girl,
Speaker 1: and yet professionally you have found yourself in environments like
Speaker 1: a lot of us, where you are working with a
Speaker 1: lot of men.
Speaker 3: That's true, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: I hadn't even really thought about that, And it's interesting.
Speaker 2: With the radio, I've always been grateful never had never
Speaker 2: having to do that, he said. She said, kind of
Speaker 2: radio or it's two girls topic and it's two boys topics.
Speaker 2: We bring things to the table that we just think
Speaker 2: are interesting.
Speaker 3: But it is different.
Speaker 2: I think to work with Anita because she and I
Speaker 2: find things different different we find things interesting from a
Speaker 2: different perspective, for the deep dive. FM radio doesn't always
Speaker 2: allow the deep dive, which is what I enjoy about it,
Speaker 2: and she and I have similar interest in the things
Speaker 2: we read the things we glean, though she'll come at
Speaker 2: it from a different perspective, so that's different to FM.
Speaker 3: But you're right.
Speaker 2: I often have been that had been the ring leader,
Speaker 2: like in the living room. It's kind of the ring
Speaker 2: leader of a crazy circus with those guys, and I
Speaker 2: loved that role. But with Jonesy, I think we both
Speaker 2: approach it the same way. It's funny that I was
Speaker 2: talking to someone the other day and saying why I
Speaker 2: think the show works is that he might say something
Speaker 2: that will infuriate me, and I'll say, I mean, we're
Speaker 2: very good friends, but he'll say something I say, oh god,
Speaker 2: it's like such a nineteen eighties man, and yet I'll
Speaker 2: know that half our audience agree with him. So it's
Speaker 2: good for me to also work with someone who's different
Speaker 2: to me or different from me, as my mother would say,
Speaker 2: so that the soup in between the two of us
Speaker 2: hopefully covers more people than just me saying here's what
Speaker 2: I think our show should be about and him saying
Speaker 2: here's what I think it should be about. It's an
Speaker 2: interesting mix of all those things.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and also in this time where everyone's very antagonistic
Speaker 1: and the political debate and the tone, partly because of
Speaker 1: social media, but just there, it does seem to be
Speaker 1: a lot of anger around a lot of what we
Speaker 1: call quote unquote cancel culture is sometimes there's people raging
Speaker 1: against each other and not giving each other the benefit
Speaker 1: of the doubt. The conversation you were talking about earlier
Speaker 1: that you and Anita had on the podcast about complicated
Speaker 1: and often unpopular conversations about how do we stop perpetrators
Speaker 1: of violence against twom and how do we come up
Speaker 1: with solutions? And sometimes that is a lot more complex
Speaker 1: than just saying, oh, I can't deal with this all
Speaker 1: men o. The problem. It's actually, as you said and
Speaker 1: Anita covered, investing money in really complicated solutions because that's
Speaker 1: how things get better.
Speaker 3: It's the same with our discourse.
Speaker 1: Isn't it. If we don't allow that suit between.
Speaker 2: Us and That's what's interesting about Anita because she has
Speaker 2: no media background. She's not even aware that there should
Speaker 2: be discourse, that we should have a different opinion, that
Speaker 2: we should be all that early FM radio stuff. That
Speaker 2: was you have to have different opinions, you have to
Speaker 2: pick a topic that you both got to feel differently
Speaker 2: about that she said, As I said earlier, I don't
Speaker 2: do that kind of radio, but particularly with Anita, she's happy.
Speaker 2: We're happy just to laugh and agree with everything we say.
Speaker 2: I read this interesting book. I just loved it, and
Speaker 2: we did it one of the podcasts on a book
Speaker 2: called Doppelganger, and it's by Naomi Klein, who is a
Speaker 2: fabulous writer. And she said that she often used to
Speaker 2: be mistaken for Naomi Wolf, who is the beauty myth
Speaker 2: and a very early feminist. And she said, Naomi Wolf
Speaker 2: now has become an anti vaxxer, has become a right wing,
Speaker 2: fully right wing kind of supporter. And she said, by
Speaker 2: looking at their too divergent path, she said, is this
Speaker 2: where society is now? And she looked at why she
Speaker 2: thinks there's been this big schism, if that's the word
Speaker 2: where it? Why is there no middle ground? And I
Speaker 2: took a lot out of that book because I thought, I,
Speaker 2: so as a broadcaster, it's very easy to define yourself
Speaker 2: as not being something.
Speaker 3: I'm not an anti vaxer.
Speaker 2: Therefore, I don't want to hear you if you're an
Speaker 2: anti vaxer, rather than tell me what your fears are
Speaker 2: and it's rationally discussed, and so I kind of took
Speaker 2: a lot from that as to maybe lead to lean
Speaker 2: in a bit more. I know, when we had the
Speaker 2: lulary Statement from the Heart and the referendum vote on air,
Speaker 2: I thought, I don't actually want to interview people who
Speaker 2: are voting no, and yet probably wish I should have,
Speaker 2: because hearing people and being able to talk about this
Speaker 2: stuff makes us all better rather than makes us less.
Speaker 2: So I took a lot from that book.
Speaker 1: Actually, Yeah, she's so right, isn't she? And I hadn't
Speaker 1: thought about that schism of the two miomis and the
Speaker 1: radicalization that come from intolerance as well, because if we
Speaker 1: shout each other down and we deny people platforms, then
Speaker 1: we're probably only in bolding.
Speaker 2: Them, emboldening them. And that's what she said happened. She said,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of valid She was very pro vaxed.
Speaker 2: But she said, there's a lot of valid questions. People
Speaker 2: were asking why do I my kids have to remask
Speaker 2: in school why it is a vaccine okay for pregnant women.
Speaker 3: But the minute any.
Speaker 2: Questions were asked, the pro vaccine people just shut them down.
Speaker 2: And so it was the anti vax movement who saw
Speaker 2: a vacuum and for the worst of reasons, thought here's
Speaker 2: a vulnerable opportunity and hijacked it. Really rather than so
Speaker 2: if we had all very rationally discussed all as adults,
Speaker 2: it may have been a different result. It was that
Speaker 2: big soup in the middle that allowed everyone to radicalize.
Speaker 1: And it's also, isn't it about those of us in
Speaker 1: the media have a bit of gumption and accepting that
Speaker 1: people might troll you for having a platform for complicated conversations.
Speaker 1: I refer back to that podcast that you and Anita
Speaker 1: had about maybe we do need to actually look at
Speaker 1: some substantial funding for perpetrators and how we stop these
Speaker 1: problems as well as supporting victims. Is that giving someone
Speaker 1: a platform or airing their views is not the same
Speaker 1: as endorsing those fears.
Speaker 2: That's so true. I think my secret fear was if
Speaker 2: they sound rational. I won't know how to argue it.
Speaker 2: So it was my fear that I wouldn't be smart
Speaker 2: or canny enough that I'm not lease sales, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have enough information to be able to counter what I
Speaker 2: don't agree with. But maybe just allowing them to say
Speaker 2: it you're right. It's not a complicit acceptance. It's just
Speaker 2: saying here's your opinion.
Speaker 1: And I think also what you've just nailed there to Amanda,
Speaker 1: is that that's part of it is that we now
Speaker 1: look at as a sport. And I'm saying this for.
Speaker 2: All of us.
Speaker 3: School is it's hard work.
Speaker 1: To engage and listen and have your worldview challenge.
Speaker 3: It really is.
Speaker 2: But look at what's at stake when you look at
Speaker 2: Trump's America. Look at what's at stake if we blindly follow.
Speaker 1: And after the break, how Amanda really feels about Tom
Speaker 1: Gleeson after that Gold Logi drama five years ago. So
Speaker 1: we've talked about radio and the podcast, So talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about TV. You as we talked about the
Speaker 1: living Room, you also were co hosting Dancing with the
Speaker 1: Stars for a few years there. Your profile on TV
Speaker 1: was so huge, Amanda that you were nominated for a
Speaker 1: Gold LOGI in twenty eighteen, missed out that year to
Speaker 1: Grant Daniel You're Dancing with the Stars co host, and
Speaker 1: then the following year, twenty nineteen, which of course was
Speaker 1: the Tom Gleeson year. I mean Tom had played a
Speaker 1: role obviously in campaigning for Grant Daniel the year prior,
Speaker 1: just to bring our listeners up to speed who might
Speaker 1: not follow logis as much as those of us in
Speaker 1: the industry. And then of course in twenty nineteen, a
Speaker 1: lot of people were really hoping that it would be
Speaker 1: your year, and Tom actually was campaigning for himself to
Speaker 1: sort of make a little bit of a point and
Speaker 1: a joke. But you missed out on the Gold LOGI
Speaker 1: that year. Five years later, What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 1: Whole time?
Speaker 2: Tom and I have very much made out peace. He
Speaker 2: reached out not long after that, and to be honest,
Speaker 2: I wasn't ready to talk to him too early on,
Speaker 2: and I.
Speaker 3: Wasn't bruised by him.
Speaker 2: I've always respected Tom and I knew he was being comedic,
Speaker 2: but the rules had changed in that people didn't campaign
Speaker 2: that way, and I find the Logi's really hard. You
Speaker 2: have to spook yourself, and that's what everyone's skill set.
Speaker 2: It's really uncomfortable, and he saw great comedic opportunities in there.
Speaker 2: But the hard thing for me was that the way
Speaker 2: it was played in the press was it was Tom
Speaker 2: versus me, and suddenly it went from what it became
Speaker 2: again this year, which was lovely, was aren't we all
Speaker 2: lucky to be nominated?
Speaker 3: And it didn't feel fun. That's what I feel.
Speaker 2: I don't feel ripped off in any way that I
Speaker 2: didn't win, but I feel ripped off that I couldn't
Speaker 2: enjoy the experience because every interview I did this at
Speaker 2: eh Dom's Coming for You, and I thought, I'm going
Speaker 2: to be the butt of a joke that I don't
Speaker 2: even I'm not really part of here. So I felt that, yes,
Speaker 2: I was at the butt of a joke, and that
Speaker 2: just made the experience not feel fun. Whereas I have
Speaker 2: no problem, and to be honest, I'm not one of
Speaker 2: those people who thinks I should have a Gold LOGI
Speaker 2: not by any means. I'm quite sanguine about the fact
Speaker 2: I don't have one and I didn't need to win
Speaker 2: one to be nominated. And that sounds tripe, but it's
Speaker 2: so true. To be nominated was such an honor, and
Speaker 2: I'm okay with that, but I wish I'd been able
Speaker 2: to enjoy the experience more.
Speaker 1: You're not on television at the moment. Do you see
Speaker 1: a role You've just said you're really not too bothered
Speaker 1: about it, but just from a forecast perspective and in
Speaker 1: terms of what your career goals are for the next five, ten,
Speaker 1: fifteen years, another LOGI in your future, which is really
Speaker 1: also another way of asking another high profile role on
Speaker 1: television in your.
Speaker 3: Future, I'd like to think. So.
Speaker 2: I've got some TV things in the works for the
Speaker 2: last second half of this year. But as much as
Speaker 2: I was sad to see The Living Room go, and
Speaker 2: I really love that show, and I think that had
Speaker 2: legs in it to keep going. Having said that, that
Speaker 2: schedule was getting so hard for me that I don't
Speaker 2: mind the calmer life I'm having now with the breakfast
Speaker 2: radio getting at four o'clock, talking for three hours, all
Speaker 2: the rest of it that comes with that. But I
Speaker 2: don't know if I do a big, long stint on
Speaker 2: TV again. I like the idea of doing a project
Speaker 2: here and there. I think that would probably suit me better.
Speaker 2: But I hope to do more television. I love television
Speaker 2: and it's a very different skill set I think to radio,
Speaker 2: So i'd very much like to and I'm offered things
Speaker 2: all the time, but I just am choosing what and
Speaker 2: where and how, and with things with Harley too. Harley's
Speaker 2: always supportive going to what you need to do, but
Speaker 2: I want to make sure it's the right thing. If
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be at home or I've got
Speaker 2: longer hours, how do we make this work for all
Speaker 2: of us now? So yes, I think I am choosing
Speaker 2: starting to choose some things, and i'd really love to
Speaker 2: think that big things were around the corner TV wise,
Speaker 2: I'm certainly not finished with it yet.
Speaker 1: Well that that is really good to hear, and I
Speaker 1: really mean that. And then I personally do hope there
Speaker 1: will be a LOGI and I know we're not making
Speaker 1: it Tom, but if there is another LOGI nomination, I'm.
Speaker 3: Having a couple of words.
Speaker 2: One of the things that also about the TOM thing,
Speaker 2: he made a joke about how crap the logis were
Speaker 2: and how ridiculous they were, and I thought that was
Speaker 2: a shame because it took away they are our awards
Speaker 2: the travel industry has the rewards. The building industry have
Speaker 2: the rewards. Whether you think they're tried or not, these
Speaker 2: are our awards and yes they can be easily manipulated
Speaker 2: if you want to, but I think that everyone then
Speaker 2: we had COVID.
Speaker 3: Remember COVID. I don't know if you've heard it, and.
Speaker 2: I'll remind you afterwards. But it's come back with joy
Speaker 2: for the industry again. Everyone stayed home and watch television.
Speaker 2: The industry employed people, gave people a laugh, It entertained
Speaker 2: people during a really tough time and I think we
Speaker 2: really need to be championing the Australian television industry. So
Speaker 2: I'm glad we've come back from making fun of it
Speaker 2: to embracing it again.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think you're so right. It's that absence
Speaker 1: makes the heart grow fonder. And when we didn't have
Speaker 1: the Lokis for two years, I think everyone from the
Speaker 1: naysayers through to the people that just love to mock it,
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, I really missed.
Speaker 2: I think so, and it was a kind of return.
Speaker 2: There was kindness supporting it when it came back.
Speaker 1: It's very true. I mentioned doctor Chris Brown because he
Speaker 1: has now obviously moved to seven Network. He's been a
Speaker 1: guest on Something to Talk About as well. He'll be
Speaker 1: doing Dancing with the Stars this year. Any advice for him?
Speaker 1: Are you proud to have seen the sequence being handed on?
Speaker 3: The sequence on.
Speaker 2: That show is always a great show, and Chris is
Speaker 2: such a great host. I will back Chris in any thing.
Speaker 2: He is a rare beast in that he's so dark, humored,
Speaker 2: but he's so sharp and funny, so that I think
Speaker 2: Julia Morris has said this too. He's the brain of
Speaker 2: a scientist zipped up in that physical person. But the
Speaker 2: true Chris is warmer, funnier, darker, kinder than you imagine.
Speaker 2: I've been with him walking late at night through the
Speaker 2: streets of King's Cross after a party or something, and
Speaker 2: homeless people will come up to him and ask about
Speaker 2: their cats. And I've never seen anyone who will give
Speaker 2: more people, more time to more people than Chris does.
Speaker 2: He will always stop, he will always talk. He really
Speaker 2: is an animal lover and a nerded heart, and I'm
Speaker 2: always impressed by that.
Speaker 1: He is a murdered heart.
Speaker 3: He is a murdered heart.
Speaker 2: Don't ask him about his frequent fly card for Spotlight.
Speaker 2: He also loves a fancy dress party.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, all right, Well I must say I did
Speaker 1: not ask him about that when he was a guest
Speaker 1: on something to talk about. You're saying not to, but
Speaker 1: I don't know. Now I really want to ask.
Speaker 3: I think maybe I should.
Speaker 1: I also mentioned Barry Dunboi, who's a homes columnist with Stella.
Speaker 1: You two have been also really good friends, and obviously
Speaker 1: when we profiled him once for Stella, he was talking
Speaker 1: to you a few times on the phone. He was
Speaker 1: just navigating a cancer diagnosis. It's amazing because a lot
Speaker 1: of people think this industry, well, it can be ruthless.
Speaker 1: They're not wrong, and it can be shallow. But these
Speaker 1: are really substantial friendships that you have formed and are
Speaker 1: happening in the way that all good friendships do, seeing
Speaker 1: each other through the highs and the lows.
Speaker 2: And all of us and Miguel too. When I first
Speaker 2: started working there, I thought, God, how do I deal
Speaker 2: with Miguel. He was unlike any other character I'd ever met.
Speaker 2: He's ended up being one of my closest friends. So
Speaker 2: the four of us just went bang, which is such
Speaker 2: a shame. I think that TV didn't see the rarity
Speaker 2: of that chemistry.
Speaker 3: Well it did for ten years.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not planning ten years on a television
Speaker 2: show is an extraordinary thing. I'm in no way complaining
Speaker 2: that that show wrapped up, But it's so rare to
Speaker 2: have that reality of friendship in amongst all the rest
Speaker 2: of it. And also that Barry is so open and
Speaker 2: brave about what he's going through. He helps so many people.
Speaker 2: He really wears his heart on his sleeve, and in
Speaker 2: a way, one hand, he's completely invincible. On the other hand,
Speaker 2: he's so vulnerable when he talks about it. So, yes,
Speaker 2: he and I the minute I met him, I've sort
Speaker 2: of we soniged each other's I know you, We felt
Speaker 2: we knew each other. So this show has given me
Speaker 2: three of the greatest friends of my life.
Speaker 1: You hosted Beyond two thousand before we got to two thousand.
Speaker 1: Remember when we used to say the year two thousand.
Speaker 2: Spaceships incredible jet packs exactly?
Speaker 1: This is my final question.
Speaker 3: Where's your jetpack? Don't you want to know?
Speaker 1: I want to know where is it? Like I'm doing
Speaker 1: my own housework. Why don't I have a robot? Why
Speaker 1: are we still driving cars instead of little self contained spaceships?
Speaker 3: You know, it's a very good question, Sarah.
Speaker 2: I saw something recently that said, you know, with all
Speaker 2: these advancements in AI, why is AI doing the writing
Speaker 2: and the poetry and the creative work and we're doing
Speaker 2: the laundry in the housework. What's happened that we are
Speaker 2: doing the manual labor while AI is doing the lofty,
Speaker 2: wonderful creative stuff the humans should be doing.
Speaker 3: But it's funny.
Speaker 2: Yes, we didn't see a lot of the technology coming,
Speaker 2: or if we did, there were such small increments like
Speaker 2: the Internet.
Speaker 3: Things like that.
Speaker 2: Jones will often have a go at me saying you
Speaker 2: never saw the Internet coming. But it was a series
Speaker 2: of computers that I remember. The first one, I think
Speaker 2: was there was a coffee pot in a university lab
Speaker 2: and they put a camera on it because they wanted
Speaker 2: to see if it was empty. It was downstairs, the
Speaker 2: couldn't be bother going there if it was empty. That
Speaker 2: was the very first kind of interactive camera system. And
Speaker 2: suddenly everyone's got one on their phone, constantly filming themselves,
Speaker 2: constantly doing all of this, often to our detriment. I
Speaker 2: think interesting is that we embraced all the technology. None
Speaker 2: of us said, should we get an ethicist on to
Speaker 2: talk about where this is going. But I know what
Speaker 2: I like about the fact we don't have flying cars
Speaker 2: and all that is that we're still human and humans
Speaker 2: are never going to be good enough to fly a
Speaker 2: car and deal with road rage in the air. I
Speaker 2: know that self driving cars exist, I still can't imagine that.
Speaker 2: So I think that despite all of that, we are
Speaker 2: still humans and that's a relief.
Speaker 1: We just as humans. We just need to have a
Speaker 1: word to AI, don't we yes to make sure that
Speaker 1: the AI generated technology is doing the menial labor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're doing the fun things.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, We've got to ask about.
Speaker 1: We do the fun things like having you in the
Speaker 1: podcast studio today. I'm glad it was me to talk
Speaker 1: to you today.
Speaker 3: And not AI. When you come back.
Speaker 1: In beyond two thy fifty, Amanda or I maybe replaced,
Speaker 1: so might generated robot. So there we go.
Speaker 3: I'll be three D printed by them.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming into the studio today.
Speaker 1: I'm glad we finally.
Speaker 3: Made this happen.
Speaker 2: Be too.
Speaker 3: I loved it, Sarah, Thank you.
Speaker 1: And you can hear more from Amanda on the Double
Speaker 1: a Chattery podcast that's available on the Iheartapp or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, and also Jonesy and Amanda, which
Speaker 1: can be heard weekdays from six am on Sydney's one
Speaker 1: oh one point seven WSFM. And if you've enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 1: make sure you're following us because we'll be back with
Speaker 1: another exclusive guest on Something to Talk About next week