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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, you are about to be in for a

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Speaker 1: big treat with Sonya Lubermirski. She is an absolute guru

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Speaker 1: in happiness research, like right up there in some of

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Speaker 1: the top five happiness researchers in the world, and I

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Speaker 1: highly recommend that you check out her website and her books,

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Speaker 1: and particularly her latest book, which is The How to

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Speaker 1: Feel Loved.

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Speaker 2: So just jump on that. Get it on Amazon. You

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Speaker 2: won't regret it.

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Speaker 1: Professor Sonya Lubermitski, Welcome to the podcast. It's a pleasure

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Speaker 1: to be the pesthetic Irishman's attempt at pronouncing.

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Speaker 2: Your the empire.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 1: When I think of happiness, I think of researchers such

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Speaker 1: as Ed Danny A, Professor Richard Laird or emeritus Professor

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Speaker 1: Richard Laird, Marty Seligman, Corey Keyes, and Sonya Lubermitski. I

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Speaker 1: would put you in with those guys. When did you

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Speaker 1: decide that happiness was going to be something that you

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Speaker 1: studied in your career?

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Speaker 4: Nineteen eighty nine, so that was what was that thirty

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Speaker 4: seven years ago or something thirty eight years ago?

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Speaker 3: Thirty seven years ago.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I got to grad school at Stanford and

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Speaker 4: by the way, just this morning I went to there

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Speaker 4: was a zoom with sort of happiness Pioneers with Marty

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Speaker 4: Seligman and ow Wow Laird and John Ellio and Ed

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Speaker 4: Diner's son, you know, a dinner passed away last So yeah,

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Speaker 4: that was really beautiful.

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Speaker 3: We kind of talked about the state of the field

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Speaker 3: and all of that.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, okay, getting back too, So yeah, so when

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Speaker 4: I started grad school. On the very first day of

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Speaker 4: grad school, this was at Stanford, I was getting my

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Speaker 4: PhD in social psychology, and I met with my new advisor.

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Speaker 4: His name is Lee Ross, and he was the world's

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Speaker 4: expert on conflict and negotiations, so kind of like maybe

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Speaker 4: the opposite of happiness. And we took a walk around

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Speaker 4: campus and we started talking about happiness and you know,

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Speaker 4: what is a secret to happiness and why are some

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Speaker 4: people happier than others?

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Speaker 3: And back then, I mean.

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Speaker 4: Some economists were studying, you know, wellbeing and Ed Deaner

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Speaker 4: at Niversity of Illinois was studying well being, but really

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Speaker 4: it was not a field yet at all.

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Speaker 3: So again, thirty thirty seven years ago.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and so let's let's define happiness because you talked

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Speaker 1: about well being there, so a lot of people talk

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Speaker 1: about subjective wellbeing. There's human flourishing and what what definition

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Speaker 1: of happiness do you like?

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Speaker 2: And why?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 4: Well I define happiness Actually the way the Ed Deaner,

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Speaker 4: the founder of the field, defines it is that happiness

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Speaker 4: really has two components, and the first component is the

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Speaker 4: experience of positive emotions. Right, So happy people are more

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Speaker 4: likely to experience joy, enthusiasm, calm, curiosity, affection, you know, serenity.

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Speaker 3: I mean, of course the experienced negative emotions too, but

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Speaker 3: you know, not too too chronically. But that's not enough.

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Speaker 4: The second component of happiness is believing that your life

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Speaker 4: is good, you know, being satisfied with your life, being

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Speaker 4: satisfied with the progress.

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Speaker 3: That you're making towards your life goals.

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Speaker 4: Right, So I think I like to think about these

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Speaker 4: two components of happiness as being happy in your life

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Speaker 4: and being happy with your life.

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Speaker 3: So you really need all of those to be a happy.

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Speaker 1: And your research I remember reading a particular study from you,

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Speaker 1: and actually I've talked about it when I'm doing corporate

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Speaker 1: talks that showed that approximately fifty ish percent of your

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Speaker 1: happiness was genetically based, but about I think it was

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Speaker 1: about forty percent was actually under your troll.

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Speaker 2: Did I get those numbers right?

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Speaker 3: Well, you got the numbers right, but the couple caveats.

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Speaker 4: One is the numbers were estimates that we sort of

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Speaker 4: estimated these numbers, you know, like twenty years ago, and

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Speaker 4: I don't use the numbers anymore because people treat them

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Speaker 4: too seriously, right, So we don't really know.

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Speaker 3: It's not really forty percent. I don't know what percent

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Speaker 3: it is.

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Speaker 4: But the way I like to think about it is

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Speaker 4: that there's like three buckets of influences on your happiness.

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Speaker 4: In one bucket is your genetics, like we know from

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Speaker 4: lots of research on behavioral From behavioral genetics, you know,

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Speaker 4: identical twins are much more alike in their happiness levels

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Speaker 4: than our fraternal twins, right, So that shows that there's

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Speaker 4: a genetic influence on happiness.

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Speaker 3: We know that to be true.

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Speaker 4: And then the other bucket is your life circumstances, right

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Speaker 4: like how rich you are and how attractive you are,

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Speaker 4: and are you married, and how old are you and

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Speaker 4: you know, what do you do? You know in terms

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Speaker 4: of your job, so that also influences your happiness depending

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Speaker 4: on where you are and your life circum stances. And

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Speaker 4: then A third bucket is sort of what you actually

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Speaker 4: can do every day to impact your happiness, right, how

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Speaker 4: you think, how you act, how you behave every day.

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Speaker 4: And so now I don't put numbers on them, but

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Speaker 4: that all three of those are major and.

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Speaker 1: If they identify a number of candidate genes or is

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Speaker 1: it is it too tricky to get right down to

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Speaker 1: that level.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's two tricky.

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Speaker 4: I mean there are there is research in molecular genetics

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Speaker 4: where you know there are candidate genes, but I think

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Speaker 4: there are many of them.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if there are hundreds.

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Speaker 4: Or thousands, and so it's just there's no single gene

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Speaker 4: that really has a big impact. That's true for by

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Speaker 4: the way, a lot of human traits. You know, that's

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Speaker 4: not just happening. It's true for almost everything. It's very

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Speaker 4: rare when there's like one gene that explains like a disease,

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Speaker 4: sometimes that happens, right, but it's very rare anyway. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: but we know that their genetic influences, like we know

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Speaker 4: you look around you right, like, I don't know do

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Speaker 4: you have kids if you have more than one kid,

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Speaker 4: like I have four kids. You know, some of ours

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Speaker 4: my kids are happier than others, like and I feel

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Speaker 4: like they were raised in similar environments, you know, And

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Speaker 4: and yet there's definitely genetic influencers.

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Speaker 1: And what about have you looked at anything around stages

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Speaker 1: of life in terms of because I know there's this

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Speaker 1: kind of inverted ship are used to be in the

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Speaker 1: research they inverted you shape with the age, But before

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Speaker 1: we get into that early life, like, we know that

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Speaker 1: early life has a big impact on so many things.

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Speaker 4: Right right, right, Well, two different questions, right, yes, of course,

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Speaker 4: like if you have like trauma in early life, you

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Speaker 4: know that could really influence by the way, can influence

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Speaker 4: you with both positive and negative ways. You know, often

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Speaker 4: it's negative, but sometimes you become more resilient. But in

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Speaker 4: terms of life stages, I don't do this research, but

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Speaker 4: other people do. I don't really believe in the inverted

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Speaker 4: you because that research is often done in the field

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Speaker 4: of economics, where they control for a lot of variables,

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Speaker 4: and we feel look at raw data. Basically, my understanding

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Speaker 4: is the least happy people are young people, right, so

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Speaker 4: ages fourteen to twenty eight, And that.

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Speaker 3: Makes sense, doesn't it make sense?

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Speaker 4: I mean they're not happy, right, and they haven't even

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Speaker 4: in this age of AI and social media, like even

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Speaker 4: not thinking about that they haven't found they don't know

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Speaker 4: who they are yet, right, they're finding their identity, they

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Speaker 4: haven't found their life partner. You know, they're still sort

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Speaker 4: of discovering themselves, you know, so it makes sense that

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Speaker 4: that would be they don't have that the self esteem

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Speaker 4: that's you know, that's core to them maybe is still

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Speaker 4: a little shaky. Right anyway, So young people are tend

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Speaker 4: to be the least happy, and people tend to get

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Speaker 4: happier as they age. I mean there might be a

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Speaker 4: dip in midlife if there's a lot going on to exactly, yeah,

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Speaker 4: or the Sandwich generation, right, you have the kids, you

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Speaker 4: have work stress, you have taken care of your parents.

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Speaker 4: But you know, people, a lot of research shows that

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Speaker 4: people tend to get happier as they get older, and

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Speaker 4: like the happiest people are actually you know, on the

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Speaker 4: older side, and then usually there's a dip somewhere because

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Speaker 4: of health or you know, other reasons.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I kind of like that research because we

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Speaker 3: have a lot to look forward to.

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Speaker 1: That's true, and and tell me also over time, so

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Speaker 1: we talked about there's been a lot of talk about

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Speaker 1: our young people and mental health issues, like, like, are

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Speaker 1: they are they completely you know, there's there's one actually

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Speaker 1: really like.

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Speaker 2: To the other.

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Speaker 1: So can you have some mental health just issues and

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Speaker 1: still have levels of happiness or well being or are

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Speaker 1: they completely Are they variables that just do not interact? No?

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Speaker 3: No, you can.

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Speaker 4: And you know, if you're talking about depression and anxiety,

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Speaker 4: which are probably the two most common mental health conditions,

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Speaker 4: those are both a pisodic, right, so at least some

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Speaker 4: of it is. So you might be depressed or anxious,

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Speaker 4: you know, have kind of an episode and then and

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Speaker 4: then you go back kind of a little bit, back

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Speaker 4: to baseline. And so clearly, when you're in the middle

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Speaker 4: of a sort of a depressive episode, you're not going

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Speaker 4: to be happy. You know, that's yeah, that's not possible.

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Speaker 4: But you know, between episodes you certainly can be happy,

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Speaker 4: So it's certainly possible. But actually, mental health issues really

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Speaker 4: are one of the biggest.

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Speaker 3: Challenges to happiness. I mean, it's just.

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Speaker 4: Really and so people who are experiencing them, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's not your fault, like it's biological usually, and it's

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Speaker 4: just really really hard to be happy when you're you're

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Speaker 4: sort of battling.

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Speaker 3: With your brain kind of like being unhappy.

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Speaker 4: So that's not to say that the strategies that I've

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Speaker 4: been studying my whole career can't help, you know, So

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Speaker 4: there are definitely things you can try to practice to

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Speaker 4: increase the level of happiness, no.

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Speaker 1: Matter, definitely want to get into strategies, but I'm interested.

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Speaker 1: Has there been any research, so, say, some of these

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Speaker 1: going on with a reasonably stable level of happiness and

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Speaker 1: they have an episode of mental health, do they come

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Speaker 1: back to their baseline level of happiness or when they

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Speaker 1: come back, is it at a lower level? Has anybody

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Speaker 1: looked into that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? They have? And again I'm not an expert in

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Speaker 3: this area.

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Speaker 4: I'm not a clinical psychologist, but I think often they

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Speaker 4: do come back to their baseline.

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Speaker 3: You know, but that baseline is lower.

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Speaker 4: Than people who've never been depressed usually, you know, And

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Speaker 4: I have looked at some research like people who kind

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Speaker 4: of used to be depressed, like they're still less happy

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Speaker 4: than people who've never been depressed. But it's certainly as

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Speaker 4: possible to go back from that, you know. There's there's

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Speaker 4: definitely hope and and antidepress and medication, you know, and

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Speaker 4: and again practices that you can try to embrace in

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Speaker 4: your daily life. Can can help you know, I'm just

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Speaker 4: saying that it's not easy, and so when people are

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Speaker 4: having a hard time, you know, it's it's a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of differences culture around the world, countries bigger old is

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Speaker 1: that play, Like if you're born in Russia versus America

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Speaker 1: versus Africa versus you know.

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Speaker 2: How much of a role does that play?

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Speaker 1: Country of origin and early upbringing and that sort of culture, right, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean it does.

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Speaker 4: So culture certainly plays a role when you compare average

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Speaker 4: happiness levels in different countries, and you probably have know this.

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Speaker 4: You know, if the World Happiness Report, you know, comes

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Speaker 4: out with these sort of average ratings, they are huge

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Speaker 4: differences in from like the Nordic countries that are the

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Speaker 4: highest to like you know, say developing countries and say

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Speaker 4: Africa and are really low in happiness. And so certainly

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Speaker 4: that that plays a role. And the thing is why

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Speaker 4: is that play a role? Because there's so many factors,

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Speaker 4: right that are all right, So it turns out if

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Speaker 4: you live in a country that has corruption, that that

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Speaker 4: that that there's a war going on, that there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of poverty. You know, there's not not not no

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Speaker 4: equal rights, there's no democracy, right that those are correlations

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Speaker 4: of you know, low happiness levels.

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Speaker 3: But then when you see people immigrating, so there's lots

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Speaker 3: of research.

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Speaker 4: Again I'm not an expert on this, but when people

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Speaker 4: immigrate to sort of countries that are happier, then they

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Speaker 4: get happier. Right, So it's not like genetic You know,

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Speaker 4: you're born and I was born in Russia, so I

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Speaker 4: was born in a very unhappy country. I don't know

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Speaker 4: what I would be what I've been like, yes, control right,

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Speaker 4: I don't know I stayed what I've been like. But

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Speaker 4: I'm certainly a pretty happy person, and that some of

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Speaker 4: that has to do with the fact that I live

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Speaker 4: in the United States and I have a really good time.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about genetics. Has anybody looked into epigenetic effects.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what we're now seeing in the research around

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Speaker 1: genetics and epigenetics is that, you know, the epigenetics, it

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Speaker 1: kind of tells the hard ware hard to run, and

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Speaker 1: we see that there are certainly some transgenerational epigenetic effects.

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Speaker 1: Has there been any research around that from a happiness

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Speaker 1: perspect that you're aware of.

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Speaker 4: I believe there isn't. Again, this is not in my

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Speaker 4: in my wheelhouse. You know, I'm not a geneticist, but

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Speaker 4: certainly you can't separate genetics and epigenetics, right, because epigenetics

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Speaker 4: is how sort of genes get turned on and off,

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Speaker 4: and that's how they actually have their impact on people,

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Speaker 4: on our phenomenology, and so they really go together. And

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Speaker 4: so again I'm not an expert in this, but yeah,

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Speaker 4: like so if you if I have a predisposition for

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Speaker 4: happiness and I'm an environment where you know, sort of

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Speaker 4: sort of certain genes are turned on because it's a

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Speaker 4: bad environment or it's a good environment, right, that's going

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Speaker 4: to affect our my happiness overall. But again, I really

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Speaker 4: can't answer this question. I'm really more an expert on

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Speaker 4: on what people can do to become happier. And really

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Speaker 4: I'd love to talk about my new book, How to

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Speaker 4: Feel Loved, which is really like the key to happiness

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Speaker 4: is sort of social connection and relationships and sort of

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Speaker 4: feeling loved and what people can do in their daily life,

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Speaker 4: you know, to feel more loved.

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Speaker 2: That we are going to dig into.

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Speaker 1: I got one more that I'm going to throw at

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Speaker 1: you before we jump into the sword of things that

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Speaker 1: you can really influence, and a lot of people, particularly

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Speaker 1: in the West, in inverted commas and you know, are

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Speaker 1: brainwashed to believe that you can get happiness through money

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Speaker 1: and through achievement.

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Speaker 2: And how much do those.

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Speaker 1: Factors actually play a role? I mean, clearly, if you're very,

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Speaker 1: very poor, that's going to have an impact. But you know,

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Speaker 1: words that diminishing returns when it comes to money. And

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Speaker 1: what sort of role does achievement because that plays into

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Speaker 1: your self esteem? And how does that roll out in

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Speaker 1: the literature?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, you know, it's it's complicated, right, it's

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Speaker 4: a very new question. Absolutely, money and achievement makes people happy.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, if anyone's interested, I have a

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Speaker 4: newsletter where every two weeks I tackle exactly these questions, right,

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Speaker 4: the question of the question money and my website is

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Speaker 4: how to Feel Loved dot com. I have the newsletter there.

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Speaker 4: But so one of the newsletters was about money and achievement.

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Speaker 4: And so the answer really is that money does make

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Speaker 4: us happier, but not as much as we think it does.

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Speaker 4: And it makes us happier when we spend it, right, right,

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Speaker 4: when we spend money on actually really three buckets, you know, connection,

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Speaker 4: connecting with others, contribution where we're helping others, and personal

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Speaker 4: growth where you're growing as a person learning something new.

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Speaker 4: So when you spend the money in those ways, it's

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Speaker 4: going to make you happier than if you spend your

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Speaker 4: money on like another possession that you put in your car,

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Speaker 4: in your garage, or you put on your shelf. And

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Speaker 4: then achievement too, you know absolutely, Like you know, when

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Speaker 4: I write a book, when I write a paper, when

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Speaker 4: I you know, like win an award, I mean, that

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Speaker 4: makes me happy. And I think that's a lot of

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Speaker 4: people will will say the same thing.

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Speaker 3: And it's not just about the achievement. It sort of

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Speaker 3: is the process of getting.

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Speaker 4: There, right, Like I mean presumably people, yeah, like we're

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Speaker 4: we we care about making an impact in the world, right,

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Speaker 4: So achievement is sort of a marker of that. But

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Speaker 4: if you're only focused on the achievement, if you're only

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Speaker 4: focused on the end goal as opposed to kind of

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Speaker 4: a journey to get there, you're not going to be

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Speaker 4: as happy. And again, it sounds like a cliche, but

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Speaker 4: research supports it that really focusing on the journey to

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Speaker 4: get there is it's more closely associated with happiness than

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Speaker 4: just achieving that one thing, because once we achieve, we

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Speaker 4: just want more.

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Speaker 3: It's called the hendonic treadmill.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: We don't just.

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Speaker 4: Stay there and be like, oh, I'm really happy, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to stay on this mountain forever.

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Speaker 3: We want to climb there.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading a book jeez must be thirty five

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Speaker 1: years ago, Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by

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Speaker 1: Robert Percik, and I remember him to use this analogy

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Speaker 1: about getting up the mountain and people just are in

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Speaker 1: a rush to get to the top of the mountain

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Speaker 1: and there was a little freeze in there. That's stuck

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Speaker 1: in my mind. And sometimes it's better to travel than

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Speaker 1: to get there.

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Speaker 3: I love that. And actually I just heard another phrase.

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Speaker 4: Actually it's from a Ted talk and it was something like,

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Speaker 4: when you get to the top of the mountain, there's

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Speaker 4: three things that are true.

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Speaker 3: And I think I got this right.

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Speaker 4: One is your alone. Another, it's cold, so that's interest

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Speaker 4: I thought. But the other the third is the odd

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Speaker 4: way that goes down, right, And.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 4: It's like, Okay, I mean doesn't mean we should climb

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Speaker 4: the mountain. And actually I really like, you know, evolutionary

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Speaker 4: theory explains a lot you know, you could argue it's

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Speaker 4: evolutionarily adaptive for us to always.

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Speaker 3: Want more, right, because if we didn't always want more,

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Speaker 3: human beings.

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Speaker 4: Were just like they would find a source of food

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Speaker 4: and they would find a friend.

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Speaker 3: They'd be like, Okay, I'm done. You know, I'm just

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Speaker 3: gonna sit.

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Speaker 4: Here and I'm not going to make any more progress, right,

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to make any more advances. I'm I'm

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Speaker 4: going to stagnate, right and yet, but no, we're not

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Speaker 4: satisfied with being done.

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Speaker 3: We want that next goal to achieve.

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Speaker 4: And so this is actually a good thing, I think

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Speaker 4: for human progress and advancement.

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Speaker 3: But maybe it's not so good.

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Speaker 1: For Isn't there interesting There's so many things that initially

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Speaker 1: are adaptive to some degree and then they become maladaptive when.

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Speaker 2: There's more run like yes, bugger and salt. The neurobiology

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Speaker 2: of preference.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's focus on on on your work, because you

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Speaker 1: you've published noodles and noodles and noodles of publications around happiness.

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Speaker 1: You've written several books on happiness and and we'll explore

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Speaker 1: your latest one.

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Speaker 2: And but but what what.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the variables are some of the things,

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Speaker 1: actions that people can take that that play a role

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Speaker 1: in their happiness.

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Speaker 4: And is there well there's hundreds, Well, there's hundreds, right.

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Speaker 4: So there's so many things you can do, each of

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Speaker 4: us can do to be happier today.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: So you can meditate, you can write a gratitude letter,

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Speaker 4: you can go exercise, you can follow some kind of

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Speaker 4: goal that you're exploring. You can forgive someone in your life,

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Speaker 4: you can savor your cup of tea. You know, there's

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Speaker 4: so many thing you can do in active kindness for someone.

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Speaker 4: What I'm finding maybe there's a hierarchy. I kind of

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Speaker 4: maybe don't want to use that term, but maybe that's

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Speaker 4: what it is. That what I concluded after decades of research.

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Speaker 4: So my lab pioneered what we call happiness interventions, right,

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Speaker 4: which are basically like clinical trials, but instead of testing

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Speaker 4: a vaccine or a medication, right, we're testing a happiness practice.

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Speaker 3: And we mostly.

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Speaker 4: Focus on three kinds of interventions. Gratitude interventions, right, we

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Speaker 4: asked you to write gratitude letters or count their blessings.

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Speaker 4: Kindness interventions we ask people to do acts of kindness

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Speaker 4: that they don't normally do for other people, as opposed

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Speaker 4: to for themselves, and we also started doing research on

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Speaker 4: what we asked people just to have more social interactions.

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Speaker 4: Just be social, go out there, be social, be extroverted,

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Speaker 4: you have a conversation. And what hit me a few

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Speaker 4: years ago is that almost all of these inter mentions

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Speaker 4: that we've been doing that work to make us happier.

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Speaker 4: The reason they work is that make us feel more

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Speaker 4: connected to others, and they make us feel more loved

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Speaker 4: by others. Right, So when I write a gratitude letter

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Speaker 4: to my best friend, it makes me feel more loved

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Speaker 4: by her, right. And when I do an act of

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Speaker 4: kindness for a colleague, right, it makes me feel closer

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Speaker 4: to the colleagues.

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Speaker 3: So I really that's the hierarchy.

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Speaker 4: I guess I would say anything that makes you feel

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Speaker 4: connected and loved seems to be.

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Speaker 3: The more important.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: You can argue when you meditate.

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Speaker 4: Or you go running, and then that's not about connection

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Speaker 4: and feeling loved, you know.

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Speaker 3: So there are some exceptions.

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Speaker 4: I could still argue sometimes that you still feel connected

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Speaker 4: sometimes to others when you're exercising, et cetera. But anyway,

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Speaker 4: most of it is about feeling connected and loved. And

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Speaker 4: so that's why more recently my lab has been studying conversations.

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Speaker 4: It's sort of like how to because it turns out

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Speaker 4: and actually your podcast or so maybe you know this

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Speaker 4: although you do it for a living, so maybe if

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Speaker 4: you do it for a job, maybe it's different. But

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Speaker 4: like if I were to give you by number one

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Speaker 4: happiness tip, right, like what or give your listeners? This

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Speaker 4: is my number one happiness tip. If you're going to

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Speaker 4: do one thing today to be happier, what should you do?

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Speaker 4: I would say, go and have a conversation with someone,

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Speaker 4: say at least a fifteen minute conversation. It could be

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Speaker 4: with a barista in your coffee shop. It could be

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Speaker 4: with your partner, it could be with your child, it

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Speaker 4: could be with almost anyone.

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Speaker 3: Now. Of course, sometimes conversations don't go well right.

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Speaker 4: They can be versive or upsetting, But on average, research

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Speaker 4: shows you feel happier after a conversation than before, especially

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Speaker 4: if it's deeper conversations. So it's not just small So

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Speaker 4: we're also studying how to make the conversation go deeper,

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Speaker 4: asking questions of the other person, sharing more of yourself,

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Speaker 4: truly listening, showing curiosity. That's how you really make the

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Speaker 4: other person feel loved In the conversation and feel connected

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Speaker 4: to you. It's not just talking about and.

443
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: It's all of this because the human brain is fundamentally

444
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 1: a social organ.

445
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 4: I mean, you certainly can argue, right, this is how

446
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 4: humans survived, Right, We're hardwired to seek out, you know,

447
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 4: social behavior, social bonds because we survived, right. We need

448
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 4: that pride, We need to mate with someone to reproduce,

449
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 4: We need to try an alliance to help us.

450
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 3: And so we are very very attuned.

451
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 4: And when those social bonds are ripped, or when we're

452
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 4: stigmatized and we're thrown out of the group, right, we're

453
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 4: more lonely.

454
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 3: You know.

455
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 4: Loneliness is basically a signal to us that we need

456
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 4: to repair our social bonds. And it's very aversive, right

457
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 4: because in the past, in our ancestral past, you could argue,

458
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 4: we would have died, right if we were lonely, you know,

459
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 4: and now it feels like a death right almost, even

460
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 4: if it's not a real death.

461
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I love the way you phrased loneliness there,

462
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: that it's a signal that we need to repair our

463
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: social bonds. Yeah, because generally, you know, you're away from

464
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: the tribe or you've had an argument with someone, and

465
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: that's that's what makes you feel lonely in the brain's

466
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 1: like this, this shit ain't good. Being on yourself by

467
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 1: yourself ain't good. I want to dive into gratitude. And

468
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 1: the reason I want to dive into gratitude is thirty

469
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, I was in India and I was

470
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: backpacking around India and a little holy village called Puri

471
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 1: and met a beggar who had leprosy and ella fantasis

472
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: or his foods like the size of an and he

473
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: had left and it was really really confronting, and I

474
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: gave him a little bit of money and had to

475
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: chat with him, and and he went away. It was

476
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: like a home made rickety go kart. And I went

477
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 1: to walk away, and I remember this to this day.

478
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: Something in my brain just clicked and said, don't walk away.

479
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: Just stand here and watch this guy until you can

480
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: no longer see him, and never ever forget this guy.

481
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: And whenever you're feeling sorry for yourself, just remember him.

482
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: And and because of him, I've done a gratitude ritual

483
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: every year. He's been the trigger for me to think,

484
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: while I'm so grateful that that I have my health,

485
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: because I've seen something with that and I really instilled it.

486
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 1: So and for me, there's a there's a little bit

487
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 1: of gratitude that that is that that kind of helps

488
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: you to go, actually, my situation here is really not

489
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: that bad and it could be a shitload worse. And

490
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: for me there's that it's almost like, you know, there's

491
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: there's this upwards social comparison in social media that that

492
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 1: that really makes people unhappy.

493
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 2: For me, I've been thinking about this.

494
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: Is there a component of gratitude that's that that when

495
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: you see things like that is almost like a downward

496
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: social comparison is like I'm a shitload better than I

497
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: could be, even if my circumstances on grit. Is there

498
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: anything in that Do you think that's independent of the

499
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,959
Speaker 1: connection part of gratitude?

500
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 4: Okay, there absolutely is, although it all really has to

501
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 4: do with connection, right because all about us and other people.

502
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 3: There absolutely is.

503
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 4: But I want to add a caveat you know, my

504
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 4: dissertation research was actually about social mediawers and what I

505
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 4: found is that basically because I thought exactly what you said,

506
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 4: that sort of the secret and one of the secrets

507
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 4: to happiness is to compare downwards so you can see

508
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 4: how much how much worse your life could have been. Right,

509
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 4: And by the way, that definitely works sometimes with gratitude exercises,

510
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 4: you say, and I have my own stories, you're the

511
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 4: story you told is very powerful.

512
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 3: And yet it's not it's not.

513
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 4: Really a good recommendation, right to be like, to be happier,

514
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 4: just look, you know, sort of look at the people

515
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 4: who are doing worse than you. And when you look

516
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 4: at people who are naturally happy and unhappy, what we found,

517
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 4: that's what we thought was gonna happen. Actually, people who

518
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 4: are happy just don't tend to compare themselves as much

519
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 4: to others at all. It's not that they don't notice it,

520
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 4: but they're not like it's the unhappy people who are

521
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 4: constantly comparing. They're like people who are lower people are higher.

522
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 4: They're just very a tune to social comparison. It just

523
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 4: turns out being a tune to social comparison can be toxic, right,

524
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 4: So ruminating about social comparison can be toxic. And so

525
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 4: happier people just they don't tend to compare. They tend

526
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 4: to use their own kind of standards, you know. But

527
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 4: having said that, what you say is very powerful that

528
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 4: once in a while we do have to remind ourselves

529
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 4: that things could be a lot worse. I'm just saying

530
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 4: it's not a recipe for happiness to be like, well,

531
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 4: there are people who are much poorer than I am,

532
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 4: so so you know, good for me, right, But I

533
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 4: have a story that's sort of similar to you, a

534
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 4: little bit similar to yours, but different is that when

535
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 4: I had my first child, who was about three years old,

536
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 4: two or three years old, and I put her in

537
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 4: a preschool and which was just a block away, and

538
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 4: she would just scream and scream when I would drop

539
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 4: her off, you know, I would leave and she would

540
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 4: just scream, and it was so awful. And none of

541
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 4: the other kids would would scream. They would say, by mommy, right,

542
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 4: and they'd be fine except for mine, right, And it

543
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 4: was so awful and it was so upsetting. It's my

544
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 4: first child. Right after that, it gets easier, right. And

545
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 4: then I remember a few times walking home and I'm

546
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 4: just like crying and there's a kid on my block

547
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,479
Speaker 4: who's severely autistic, really disabled and also disabled, and I

548
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: remember I would run into him. He would sort of

549
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 4: walk around the block and he was like maybe a

550
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 4: teenager and it would.

551
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 3: Hit me, right, it would hit me like what am I?

552
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: Why am I crying?

553
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 4: You know, like, you know, my situation is so much better. Yes,

554
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 4: she's having a trouble, you know, adjusting preschool, like things

555
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 4: could be so much worse. She's healthy. So it's a

556
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 4: similar kind of thing. So it does work sometimes to

557
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 4: kind of jolt you, jolt you out of sort of

558
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 4: your own misery maybe, but I think it's not a

559
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 4: long term say, you know, long term solution is really

560
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:00,239
Speaker 4: all right.

561
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: So one other thing that I do, there's a little

562
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: comparison to stuff that you have been through before. So

563
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: when I was in the military, I went through ten

564
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: days of combat survival and resistance to interrogation training, which

565
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: was horrible. And we were in the middle in the UK,

566
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: in the middle of the winter. We had no sleeping

567
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: bags and we were thrashed physically every day, and I

568
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: remember every night trying to get to sleep and being

569
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: so cold and so uncomfortable. And now every single night

570
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: when I lie down in bed, I say to myself, Hi,

571
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: friggin awesome is a mattress and a pillow?

572
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: Right?

573
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 3: So beautiful? You still have that because most people.

574
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: And I forced myself to remember, Right, it's an actual

575
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: habit that I have to go. This is frigging awesome,

576
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: because I think we just take things for granted.

577
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: You know, the more we have it, the more we

578
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: take it for granted.

579
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 4: And gratitude is basically the opposite granted. Right, It's basically saying, no,

580
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 4: I'm grateful. I have a friend who spend a lot

581
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 4: of time in developing countries and they often remind me.

582
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 3: They're like, we have indoor plumbing.

583
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 4: Isn't it amazing to go and turn the water on

584
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 4: and water comes out?

585
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 3: Or an electricity that's reliable, you know.

586
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 4: So yeah, and it's just most of us have a

587
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 4: hard time like remembering that every day. So actually, I

588
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 4: applaud you for having that practice every day, or the

589
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 4: or the beggar that you met, right, to remind yourself,

590
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 4: because we forget, we take for granted.

591
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 3: And yeah, so that's what gratitude is. Gratitude is a.

592
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 4: Practice where you intentionally try to not take for granted.

593
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you just hit something on the neil that

594
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot about, which is combining gratitude

595
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: with awe.

596
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: And so occasionally I'll.

597
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: Turn the water on and I'll go, fucking hell o

598
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: coldes that shit running water and exactly what you said,

599
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: I'll turn a light on. I'll go, that's freaking Ama,

600
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: really ridiculously amazing.

601
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 3: I love his experiences.

602
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have the same thing with like, uh, like

603
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 4: there are people who take out the tri I'm so

604
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 4: grateful for the people who.

605
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 3: Take out are right. Imagine how amazing that is.

606
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 4: And then we don't have to worry, you know, we

607
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 4: just kind of put in the shoot and and and or.

608
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 4: Another example I have is like I remember once I

609
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 4: was crossing the Brooklyn Bridge in New York City, and

610
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 4: I was just odd by this bridge and how many

611
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 4: people came together to build this bridge, like the construction

612
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 4: workers and the architects and the engineers and all of that,

613
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 4: and and it's it's and I'm so grateful and like

614
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: thank you all. And you know, and some people are

615
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 4: better Dallay Lama often talks about that. It's like when

616
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 4: you think about everything, the computer, the glass of water,

617
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 4: like how many people actually had to come together to

618
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 4: bring you that book on your table, you know, that

619
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 4: banana you're eating whatever to make that happen. So to

620
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 4: continually be great, all is very hard for most of us.

621
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 4: But let's let's try.

622
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: As anybody looked into what's going on in the brain

623
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: during moments of gratitude. And you also talked about about

624
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: seaver rings, So take ticketos in any order you want,

625
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: like other distinct pathways that are activated in the brain

626
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: when we're doing these sorts of things.

627
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: You know, I only know of one study, and I

628
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 3: actually don't remember. It was Naomi at U c l A.

629
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: And she's the one who.

630
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 4: Found like social pain, right, but she also did a

631
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 4: study of gratitude. I don't know if she really ever

632
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 4: found something that was very unique to gratitude. So I

633
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 4: think we're just more studies. And I need to look

634
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 4: up that study to confirm. But I think we just

635
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 4: need more studies. Uh yeah, just just look at what's

636
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: happening in the brain. I think that's very useful.

637
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: And so you talked about a couple of other things

638
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: that you you just rattled off, and I do want

639
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: to explore some of them kind of yes, So what's

640
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: going on with acts of kindness and why do they

641
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: seem to impact our happiness?

642
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 4: Well, I want to get back to again, getting back

643
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: to connect Yeah, social connections feel loved, you know. In

644
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 4: my book How to Feel Loved, one mindset we talk

645
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 4: about is called the open heart mindset, which is that

646
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 4: to feel loved, you need to make other people feel loved,

647
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 4: which is directing kind of an open heart towards them.

648
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 4: And so kindness is probably the main factor there, sort

649
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 4: of being kind, compassionate toward others, believing in other people,

650
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: you know, wanting other people to be happy. Right, And

651
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: so that's actually one way I like to think about it.

652
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 4: I want you to be well, I want you to

653
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 4: be happy. Like that's really, you know, what what open

654
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 4: heart and kindness is about. And so we've done quite

655
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 4: a few studies where we randomly assign people to you know,

656
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 4: say for the next month, say every Monday, we want

657
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 4: you to do three acts of kindness for other people

658
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 4: that you don't normally do. And then we have various

659
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 4: comparison conditions. And my favorite comparison condition is every Monday,

660
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 4: you do three acts of kindness for yourself that you

661
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 4: don't normally do. So that could be self care, it

662
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 4: could be something self indulgent like take a nap, have

663
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 4: a piece of chocolate, you know, yeah, you know, not

664
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 4: social things, but just kind of things for yourself. And

665
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 4: what we find is that people become happier, feel more

666
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 4: connected when they do.

667
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 3: Acts of kindness for others.

668
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 4: You know, for lots of reasons, right, it feels good

669
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 4: to be kind other people you know like you more,

670
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 4: they reciprocate, they smile. We also have done You've asked

671
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 4: a lot of a number of questions about the brain.

672
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 3: Well, I've partnered with a with a.

673
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 4: Collaborat named Steve Cole who founded the field, a field

674
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 4: called social gal So this is a big RNA g

675
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 4: and expression and how that gets under the skin because

676
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: of social behavior. So basically we do these studies where

677
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 4: we ask people to do acts of kindness for others

678
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 4: or for themselves, and then we collect blood from them

679
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 4: before and after. The intervention is a month long intervention.

680
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 4: And what we found in now like three or four studies,

681
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 4: is it people who are three studies, people who do

682
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 4: acts of kindness for others show changes in their RNA

683
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 4: gene expression that are associated with a stronger immuniate.

684
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 2: While basically.

685
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 4: As opposed to people who do acts of kindness for themselves. Now,

686
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 4: it feels good to do something for yourself, but it

687
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 4: doesn't seem to get under the skin in the way

688
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 4: that doing acts of kindness for others. And you can

689
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 4: imagine again by adaptive right to help.

690
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 1: I was going to say, is this driven by evolutionary biology?

691
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: Even it's gotta be right everything, Yeah, And talking about biology,

692
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 1: and so I call myself a psychophysiologist, and I say

693
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: to people, be interesting to get your take on this statement.

694
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: I say to people, anybody who tells you that you

695
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: can optimize mental health just with thinking skills is completely

696
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: bot check create because of the very strong two way

697
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 1: interaction between psychology and biology. Right that everybody knows that

698
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: if you're depressed, it affects your biology, But my god,

699
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: does your physiology or biology affect your psychology. And when

700
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: we think about exercise and all the neurotransmitters that are

701
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: released and the mild kinds that are released that have

702
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: actions throughout your body from contracting muscle, we think of

703
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: vinomin D. That's actually quite an effect of antidepressant. Or actually,

704
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: I'm beginning to think it's not such that exercise, good

705
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: food and vinomin D and other things are antidepressants. I

706
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: think the absence of them are depressants because they are

707
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: fundamentally changing our biological environment.

708
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: What's your thoughts on that?

709
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: I absolutely agree with you.

710
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the body there is more of an emphasis,

711
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 4: by the way, if you go to a therapist now

712
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 4: you know, well it depends where I guess, but there's

713
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: more of an emphasis on the body. And like somatic

714
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 4: therapy is becoming very popular, at least in California where

715
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 4: I live, you know where you know now the therapists

716
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 4: are not only asking you what you're thinking, but they're

717
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 4: asking you, like, what are you feeling in your body

718
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 4: right now? And of course there's always been, I think,

719
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 4: an importance of things like exercise and diet and self care.

720
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,720
Speaker 4: But I do disagree though with the quote you made. Again,

721
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 4: things are always more nuanced, right. So it's of course

722
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 4: how you think matters.

723
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 3: I mean, of course it matters. It's just that it's

724
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: not the only thing.

725
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 4: You know, how you think matters, how you feel matters,

726
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 4: what you're doing with your body, matters, what you put

727
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 4: into your body. They all matter, right. I can't put

728
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 4: a number on what's sort of more important when. But

729
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 4: it's just that we don't want to overemphasize. For a

730
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 4: long time, we've overemphasized like cognitive behavioral therapy. Right, overemphasize

731
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 4: I think thinking, but it's very it's important and it

732
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 4: works by the way, you know. And if we only

733
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 4: own emphasize what's going on with the body and not

734
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 4: with the head, you know, that's that's going to be wrongs.

735
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: To Rennie Jagcart for us all, didn't they there's sole

736
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: idea of dualism. But I mean in the inn the

737
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: experiments that you do, like to talk our listeners story,

738
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: how you design an experiment around happiness to control for

739
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: confounding factors, you know, whether it's biological factors such as

740
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: exercise or other factors that could do it gives us

741
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: a sense of just part of researcher think.

742
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 4: Sure, well, since I already mentioned the kindness experiment, I

743
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 4: can kind of start with that one. Well, again, that

744
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 4: we control for confounding factors by making it a true experiment, right,

745
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 4: we do what are called randomized control trials.

746
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 3: So so if I randomly if I have let's say, three.

747
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 4: Hundred people, and I randomly assign a hundred of them,

748
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 4: so that means that you have an equal chance of

749
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 4: being an any of the conditions.

750
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 3: Right, So it's random assignment.

751
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 4: I randomly assigned one hundred people out of the three

752
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 4: hundred to do acts of kindness for others. I randomly

753
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 4: assigned one hundred people. I tell them, you do acts

754
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 4: of kindness for yourself.

755
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 3: And then I randomly signed.

756
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 4: One hundred people to keep a dry diary, sort of

757
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,959
Speaker 4: a control condition. Keep a diary of what you're doing

758
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 4: every week. So it's sort of a neutral something neutral.

759
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 4: So because it's random assiviety, it controls for everything, right,

760
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 4: so it doesn't matter. Maybe they're so some people say,

761
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 4: what if you have more people who are you know,

762
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 4: extroverted in the condition that's kind, or what if people

763
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: are healthier in the in the condition that's you know,

764
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 4: kind to others? What if you have people who are

765
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 4: older or richer, And that's not going to happen because

766
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 4: that's why you have random assignments. So then you don't

767
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 4: have any confounds you know now in correlational or longitunal research.

768
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 4: So for example, let's say I wanted to know, Let's

769
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 4: say ask people how kind are you?

770
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: Every day?

771
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 4: Can you sort of write a diary of how kind

772
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 4: you are to others and other people? I say, and

773
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 4: I ask everyone to write a diary of how kind

774
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 4: of they are to themselves or others. And I find oh,

775
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 4: people who are kinder to others in their diaries, right,

776
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 4: are happier. Well then, because it's the correlation. I don't

777
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 4: know what's responsible for it. Maybe people who are kinder

778
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 4: to others are just happier to begin with. Maybe they're older,

779
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 4: maybe they're wiser, maybe they're healthier, maybe they're richer. Right,

780
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 4: So that's why we do experiments. So that's how my

781
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 4: mind thinks is in terms of experiment.

782
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: And now you did mention their extra version, and you

783
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: remind me I did want to ask you about personality,

784
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: and you know, there's many different personality types, but I

785
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: think the Big five is the one that's probably most

786
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: respected by psychologists.

787
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, But do you.

788
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: Things like extraversion, openness, conscientiousness that did they have an

789
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: impact on happiness?

790
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

791
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 4: So, yeah, the Big five definitely the acronymus ocean right,

792
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 4: oh C yeah, yeah, and very high correlations with happiness. Right, So,

793
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 4: happier people are more likely to be extroverted, less likely

794
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 4: to be neurotic. And there's smaller correlations but still correlations

795
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 4: with agreeableness, conscientiousness, and openness. So yeah, but again these

796
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 4: are correlations. And so some people think, for example, there's

797
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 4: a common genetic factor or by factor, I mean lots

798
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 4: of genes, right, so it's shared both by happiness and

799
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 4: people who are sort of.

800
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: Extroverted or not not neurotic.

801
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 4: Right, So it could be some kind of a third

802
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,439
Speaker 4: factor that's responsible for them. But yeah, absolutely, personality matter.

803
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: Okay, and let's talk about you said personality.

804
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 2: Can you can people.

805
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: Personalize happiness strategies, like there's some things.

806
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 2: That work better for some types of.

807
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: Individuals or some particular cultures are.

808
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, there's a I talk a lot

809
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 4: about in my first book, The Health Happiness. That's when

810
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 4: I first raised the idea fit you know, so you

811
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 4: have to sort of find the strategy that fits you

812
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 4: and also how to do it. So I think gratitude

813
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 4: is a fairly universally good strategy, you know. But some

814
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 4: people are artistics, so they might create like a gratitude

815
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 4: collage or draw what they're grateful for, right. Other people

816
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 4: like to talk, and they might talk to a friend

817
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 4: about what they're grateful for. Other people like to write,

818
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 4: you know, and so and so yeah, absolutely, I think

819
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 4: these strategies all can be kind of customized. Yeah, to

820
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 4: be like the perfect strategy for that particular person.

821
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: Helped me through a day in the life of a

822
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 1: person that is cultivating happiness versus somebody who is cultivating

823
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: unhappiness or eroding their own happiness. Like what what what

824
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: is that day in the life look like for those

825
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: people from a daily practice, Like, let's talk about getting

826
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: up in the morning through the day, what are things

827
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: that you could let your throughout the day if you

828
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: want a day in the life of a happy individual? Sure?

829
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 4: Sure, okay, great question. So this is really what my

830
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 4: new book, How to Feel Loved is about. It's sort

831
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 4: of like the key to happiness is feeling loved, so

832
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 4: whatever or feeling connected that whatever you can.

833
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 3: Do during the day.

834
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 4: I already mentioned having conversations, right, whatever you can do

835
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 4: during the day to feel more loved, but also to

836
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 4: make the first step is to make other people feel loved. Right,

837
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 4: So what can I do all throughout the day to

838
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 4: make other people feel loved?

839
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: And what what's the first step?

840
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 4: Showing curiosity in other people, right and truly listening to

841
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 4: other people. That's the first step. And by the way,

842
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 4: it's not that common. When was the last time that

843
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,919
Speaker 4: someone was so curious in what you had to say

844
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 4: right in your story that they just couldn't wait for

845
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 4: you to finish your story? Right there, they're leaning in, right,

846
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 4: and they're like their eyes were bright.

847
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 3: Like it is so compelling.

848
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 4: We all want to be known, right, we want to

849
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 4: be heard, we want to be seen. And it's not

850
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 4: I mean, as a podcaster, like you know how to

851
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 4: show curiosity in others and you can't fake it, by

852
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 4: the way, like it has to be real curiosity. So

853
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 4: the first step, this is the day of the someone

854
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 4: who wants to be happy, who wants to feel loved,

855
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 4: making other people feel feel loved, show curiosity in other people.

856
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: And then once they start talking, so you ask them questions, right,

857
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 4: ask them questions, ask them deep questions, I mean, start smart,

858
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 4: small obviously you know pacing is important. And then when

859
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 4: they answer, truly listen to them. Right, So what does

860
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 4: that mean listening? Again, you probably know how to listen.

861
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 4: Most of us are not good listeners. I'm not a

862
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 4: very good listener. I'm more of a talker. So most

863
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 4: of us, what we say in the book How to

864
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 4: Feel Loved, we mostly listen to respond instead of right,

865
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 4: we're rehearsing.

866
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 1: That you're interrupting, right if you're not physically inter exactly.

867
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 4: So there's a sort of inner chatter in our mind.

868
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 4: So we're not really listening hundred percent. So we say,

869
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 4: don't listen to respond, listen to learn, Listen like there's

870
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 4: going to be a test on it tomorrow, right, so

871
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 4: we're listening.

872
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: I like that and they and I like the curiosity,

873
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: like to be curious. What's the emotion that this person

874
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: is experiencing right now?

875
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 3: You know, that sort of stuff exactly, like what is

876
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 3: their inner life? Actually?

877
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 4: I was thinking about you know, some people, it's often

878
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 4: the stereotype is often older people, but it could be anyone.

879
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 4: And they'll give you all they go on and on

880
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 4: about their day, right, and they'll tell you about why

881
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 4: I ran this errand and then this happened, and I

882
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 4: couldn't find a parking place, and I went on a trip,

883
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 4: and you know, right, and they're they're giving all these

884
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 4: details about their life. And often it's boring, right because

885
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 4: you don't want to hear about all these details. But

886
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 4: it makes you realize that like we all kind of want,

887
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 4: like we want other people to know about our inner life,

888
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 4: about the details of our inner life, and so like

889
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 4: when you fall in love, often people are very interested

890
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 4: in every little detail about each other, right, which is

891
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 4: so compelling, right because usually no one cares about your details.

892
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: They don't want to know that your flight is late, whatever,

893
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 3: it's not, it's not that interesting.

894
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 4: But anyway, but if you if you actually show curiosity

895
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 4: in another person's day, you know, in there, in what

896
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 4: they're feeling, in what they're thinking, and how things are going,

897
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 4: that is so compelling. It's very powerful, and that's how

898
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 4: you make other people feel loved. And then that helps

899
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 4: them open up and tell you more, tell you more

900
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 4: about it. Because we all have these walls around us, right,

901
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 4: So when you have walls around you, you can't really

902
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 4: feel connected and loved because you're not really showing your

903
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 4: full self to others. And everyone has walls around us.

904
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 4: And so anyway we help other people open up, and

905
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 4: then the idea is then they will reciprocate, because reciprocity

906
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 4: is a very powerful rule.

907
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 3: Of social behavior and evolutionarily speaking, too, right, we reciprocate.

908
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 4: And so if I make you feel loved by showing

909
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 4: curiosity and listening when you share, hopefully you will reciprocate

910
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 4: and you will show curiosity in me, and then I'll

911
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 4: start sharing more of myself, like be a little bit

912
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 4: more vulner right, And that's how you feel connected, is

913
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 4: by showing a little bit of that vulnerability. We don't

914
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 4: feel connected when we're just impressing each other, right, which

915
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 4: is what mostly we're doing when we go through the day.

916
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 4: We're mostly trying to impress everyone, right. We want people

917
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 4: to know that we're kind and interesting and smart and funny. Right,

918
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 4: So that might succeed at impressing, but it doesn't succeed

919
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 4: in making us really feel connected, you know, or.

920
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that connection.

921
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: I ran a corporate workshop yesterday for a bunch of

922
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: pretty senior executives and one thing I do that I

923
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: do quite often when I'm working with teams, leadership teams

924
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: is get everybody around in a circle and ask them

925
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: to talk about the most difficult experience of their life emotionally.

926
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: And it's obviously very emotional, but the connection that people

927
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: feel afterwards and how they say that cheese that deeper connection.

928
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: It's just it's tremendous. Particularly, I think when you see

929
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: somebody experiencing a deep emotion and you see other people

930
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: murder that emotion.

931
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, are going bango?

932
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 3: Is that amazing?

933
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 4: And when you think about like our polarized society, you know,

934
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 4: and people are just.

935
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 3: Like hating each other.

936
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 4: And imagine like really sharing, you know, with someone who

937
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 4: maybe you really disagree with, but then you see each

938
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 4: other as human, right, and you have that connection. And

939
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 4: I'm also curiosity in listening, right, really listening to other

940
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 4: people and.

941
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 3: Be curious, like why do you believe in that?

942
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 4: Or imagine in the middle of an argument with your

943
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 4: spouse they're really angry at you, and you and you

944
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 4: and you stop with curiosity and you're like.

945
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 3: Wow, why are they so angry? That's really interesting? Right,

946
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 3: So it's hard to do.

947
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 4: It's hard to do, but I recommend everyone to show

948
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 4: more curiosity in listening and to share more, you know.

949
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: And anything else that people could do this day in

950
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: the life of a happy.

951
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 3: Person, right, Well, definitely have conversations.

952
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 4: Well, here's another thing that I would add, as I

953
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 4: call this the multiplicity mindset in my book, see people

954
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 4: as complex, Right, we all have strength and weaknesses. We're

955
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 4: all like a quilt of positive and negative qualities, right,

956
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 4: and we know this, but we don't think about it

957
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 4: that much because we tend to be judgmental.

958
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 3: Right, So I'm generous at times.

959
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 4: But you know what, sometimes I'm selfish and sometimes I'm loyal,

960
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 4: and sometimes I'm narcissistic, and I'll freely acknowledge that.

961
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 3: And you know what we all are. We all are

962
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 3: like that's a lot, right, And so when you see

963
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 3: that in others and.

964
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 4: In yourself, that you are more forgiving, that you're more

965
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 4: accepting that you see people in all of their messy complexity,

966
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 4: And I think that really helps us to feel love,

967
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,919
Speaker 4: to accept others, right, and not just sort of be judgmental. Again,

968
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 4: evolutionary theory. I think maybe it's served us well to

969
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,959
Speaker 4: be judgmental because we want to know who's our friends.

970
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 4: Was our faue, right, But yet seeing people in their

971
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 4: complexity and messiness, I think they're hugely useful.

972
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: I actually think that you know, we we kind of

973
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: are all running a personalized hallucination of reality.

974
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: Right.

975
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: Our brain is just a filter through hard we view

976
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 1: the world, and all of our experiences, particularly emotional experiences,

977
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: ship that filter and it's unique.

978
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,879
Speaker 2: And when when you when when you kind of get

979
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: to grips with that. You can't not be curious, can you.

980
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: He's like, oh what, Oh, maybe that's why that's fascinating.

981
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 3: Well, here's an example.

982
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,439
Speaker 4: A friend of mine was telling about a guy who

983
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 4: said something pretty awful about another friend, a female friend.

984
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 3: She's like, can you believe this guy said that? She

985
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 3: showed me the text, and.

986
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 4: My first reaction was like, oh my god, yeah, horrible, right,

987
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 4: But my second reaction was really curiosity.

988
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 3: And it was like and I could see the little boy.

989
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 4: Inside of him who was maybe rejected when he was

990
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 4: younger by women and so sure, and so I was like, oh,

991
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 4: I no, but it doesn't excuse it doesn't condone it,

992
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 4: it doesn't justify it, but it's really yeah, it really

993
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 4: helps to see people in that wider legs.

994
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think was it was it?

995
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: I think it might have been Gandhi said, if you

996
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: if you want to be understood, for seek to understand, right,

997
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: it's just not.

998
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 4: If you can find that quote, send that to me,

999
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 4: because that's that's really relevant. You know till by work,

1000
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 4: you know, and how to feel loved, like if you

1001
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,399
Speaker 4: want to feel loved, first make the other person feel

1002
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 4: loved if you can, if you can find that guy.

1003
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 2: I will take it out. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty

1004
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 2: sure it was it was Gandhy. So how's your view?

1005
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: So you've read, you've written several books. You've don't know

1006
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: how research on this high has or has it. I'm

1007
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 1: guessing it has. How has your view of happiness changed

1008
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: over the years, And if it has changed, is it

1009
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,959
Speaker 1: just being subtle or was there something that you dug

1010
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: into that would created a fundamental shift?

1011
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 3: Not not a huge change.

1012
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 4: I mean I already mentioned the connection piece has become

1013
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 4: much more you know, important.

1014
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 3: I see that as a more important piece. I see

1015
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 3: the personalization of happiest strategies as a more important piece.

1016
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 3: And I guess one view.

1017
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 4: One thing I would say is, I mean research is

1018
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 4: so important, and I think I like to base my

1019
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 4: behavior on research when I can. Like, if you're about

1020
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 4: to have surgery, right, you want to know that surgery

1021
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 4: A is better on average the surgery B. Right, But

1022
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 4: it's all about averages, right, So the surgery A versus

1023
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 4: surgery BE. On average, you know A works better, but

1024
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 4: maybe for me B is going to work better, right,

1025
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 4: And although I don't know that. So and same thing

1026
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 4: with gratitude and kindness and even conversations that you know,

1027
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 4: just remember.

1028
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 3: I guess that's one one thing that I've changed my

1029
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 3: mind about sort of.

1030
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 4: Remember the research findings are about averages, and usually that's

1031
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 4: that's very significant and you should follow them. But sometimes

1032
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 4: you know that average doesn't apply to you because well,

1033
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 4: we all think that we're not we're not averaged.

1034
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: I think that's that's hugely important. I remember doing my

1035
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: first Masters thirty odd years ago. It was in exercise science,

1036
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: and we were getting people to run to exhaustion on

1037
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,959
Speaker 1: either a low glycemic index carbohydrate diet or a high

1038
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: glycemic index carbohydrate diet. And the researched, on average, they

1039
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: did better on log glycemic when it was distant, but

1040
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: some people were completely polar opposites. And I don't think

1041
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: that's presented enough in the research. You know, you see

1042
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: the averages, but it's like, what's the individual variation behind it,

1043
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: because it can be huge kind and the opposite or.

1044
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 4: Like, right, salt is associated with high blood pressure and

1045
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 4: many people, but for lots of people it have absolutely

1046
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 4: no impact on their blood pressure. Yeah, so yeah, I

1047
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 4: think it's good to keep that in mind.

1048
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 3: If I know nothing.

1049
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 4: I'm still going to look at the average effect, right,

1050
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 4: that's still very useful in research. And by the way,

1051
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 4: the more research we do, the more we can look

1052
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 4: at what are called moderators, right, which are these like.

1053
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 3: On average, writing gratitude letters.

1054
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 4: Works better, but if you're an extrovert, or if you're

1055
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 4: a young female, you know, maybe it works better in

1056
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 4: this condition. Right, So we're learning more and more, you know,

1057
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:32,879
Speaker 4: with more.

1058
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: If you had a bottomless pit of money and resources

1059
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: to conduct the ultimate experiment on happiness, have you thought

1060
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: about what that would look like?

1061
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 4: Yes, And it's actually going on right now, or we're

1062
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 4: starting it's called the Happiest Mega Study, and we're basically

1063
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 4: testing all the interventions like meditation, like gratitude, like kindness,

1064
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 4: that we think are the most powerful interventions from research.

1065
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 4: We're testing them among many, many, many people across many

1066
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 4: many cultures and countries.

1067
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 3: And we actually need money to run that study.

1068
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 4: And so that's really what we need to do, is

1069
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 4: to kind of replicate and see where you know, maybe

1070
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 4: the effects are going to own.

1071
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 3: Maybe they're going to be.

1072
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 4: Higher in this country but not this country, right, or

1073
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 4: with men but not women. And we need to have

1074
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 4: all huge sample.

1075
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 3: Sizes, So that's what that's what I would do. So

1076
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 3: find us a bucket of value.

1077
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: Are you crowdfunding it or are you just trying to

1078
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: get well?

1079
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 3: I think you know I'm not. I'm not running it.

1080
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 3: I'm part of it.

1081
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 4: I think they're using all kinds of strategies but to

1082
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 4: find Yeah, but crowdfunding I think is.

1083
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,800
Speaker 1: H Yeah, because a lot of people interested.

1084
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 2: Is that right?

1085
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: So so what's your what's your hope plans for the

1086
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 1: future in terms of research other than this study?

1087
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 2: Like what what what gets you excited? I know, I

1088
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 2: know you've got to go in in a minute.

1089
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: So maybe that's our last question about what do you

1090
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: get excited about in this area?

1091
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, again, I think doing that giant study I

1092
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 4: think is extremely exciting.

1093
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 3: I really want to know what the answer is.

1094
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 4: But really, as I said, I'm most excited right now

1095
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:15,879
Speaker 4: about studying conversations and what makes conversations go well. And

1096
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 4: that's that has a lot of implications as I said,

1097
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 4: for polarization, but also for people who are lonely, right,

1098
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 4: and how do we help people who are lonely be

1099
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 4: less lowly, which is really difficult challenge, you know, a

1100
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 4: lot of people tried and failed, so so yeah, we'll see,

1101
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 4: We'll see where we get there.

1102
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: Sonia, this this has been awesome, a turtive force of

1103
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: happiness research.

1104
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 2: So where can.

1105
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: People go to find out more about you, to buy

1106
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: your books, to sign up to your newsletter?

1107
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: On what other resources?

1108
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: Great?

1109
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 3: I think there's to two websites.

1110
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 4: How to Feel Loved dot com is the easiest to

1111
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 4: remember how to feel and if you can tell your

1112
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 4: listeners how to feel loved dot com. And then my

1113
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 4: website also has the newsletters which is ONNYO Lubumirski dot com.

1114
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 3: Just harder to spell.

1115
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 4: But you know, if people google Sonya with a j happiness,

1116
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 4: they should be able to find me.

1117
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: So we put all those links into the show notes

1118
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:13,879
Speaker 1: so people can can actually find them.

1119
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 2: So I know you've got a run.

1120
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: Thank you for your time, Thank you for your expertise

1121
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: and your life's work on behalf.

1122
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 2: Of the world because it's important. Ship.

1123
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you for your really great questions. I

1124
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 3: loved answering.

1125
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 4: Because I often get the same questions over and over again,

1126
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 4: but these are really interesting questions.

1127
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 3: So pleasure to be here. Have a great thank you