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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. I'm not

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Speaker 1: really sure how to introduce today's guest. To say is

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Speaker 1: a complex character is an understatement. He describes himself as

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Speaker 1: a half caste, left handed, gay Scottish Maori. I'm also

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Speaker 1: going to add to that description by saying he was

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Speaker 1: also a nice addict. He was a drug dealer and

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Speaker 1: a part time standover man. Sadly, he was also sexually

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Speaker 1: abused as a young child, but he managed to break

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Speaker 1: away from his life of crime. He also acknowledged his

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Speaker 1: sexuality and then was betrayed by a man he loved

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Speaker 1: that sent him back, spiraling into a life of crime

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Speaker 1: with a burning anger and resentment. It was not until

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Speaker 1: he started taking ownership in his actions when he was

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Speaker 1: able to break away from the world and follow his

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Speaker 1: true passion as a stand up comedian. As I said,

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Speaker 1: he's a complex character and today is here to share

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Speaker 1: his story. Today's guest is Elliott McLaren. Elliott McLaren, welcome

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Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Kelder, Well, I'm excited about it because we had a

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Speaker 1: good long chat and I got a sense of where

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Speaker 1: you're coming from and different things. I got to say that, yea,

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Speaker 1: you've had an interesting life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Descriptions of we could place on you, but very complex

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Speaker 1: highs and lowers and everything in between.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing that interests me was the fact that

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Speaker 1: you break away from crime. Here on My Catchkill is

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Speaker 1: a lot of people we get and we've had a

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Speaker 1: lot of high profile bad guys and girls for that matter.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be when they're caught that they get

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Speaker 1: that time to reflect. But it seems that you just

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Speaker 1: made a decision to turn your life around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if it was. I think

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Speaker 2: it was just because I was unhappy. I always knew

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Speaker 2: at the start, when I first started being bad, I

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Speaker 2: always knew that was the wrong thing to do, and

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Speaker 2: I always hated it. But I always hated my reality anyway.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't until my reality started to change and

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Speaker 2: I actually really enjoyed it that I was like, you

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Speaker 2: know what, I don't want to lose, especially after coming

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Speaker 2: out of the closet and that sort of thing, big

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Speaker 2: weight lifted off my shoulders. But I'm lucky enough I'd

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Speaker 2: never been convicted, so.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to ask you that you're even

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Speaker 1: the world's best best bad guy, as in clever and

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Speaker 1: getting away of it, because you haven't been convicted or caught. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we'll put a disclaimer any crimes that you discussed today.

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Speaker 1: The crimes are the friend of a friend apparently committed.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much for saying that, because that's the

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Speaker 2: only thing I was really nervous. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you've heard the doom song rep Snitches, but there's all

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Speaker 2: that's been ringing in my head the whole time I've

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Speaker 2: been coming on with Rep snitches.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, we're not talking about Elliott today. He's here

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Speaker 1: representing a friend of a friend of a friend.

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Speaker 2: I'm just waiting for an extradition. That's New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: You said, what why am I in SPA for the

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Speaker 1: New Zealand?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know if it's I don't know if

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Speaker 2: it's the fact that I'm a good criminal. I think

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Speaker 2: it's just it's a lot of luck, a lot of luck,

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Speaker 2: because it's always that old thing when you're being a criminal,

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Speaker 2: no matter what you're doing, whether it's drink driving and

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Speaker 2: you're selling drugs, it's not if you get caught, it's win.

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Speaker 2: It's always going to happen. It's inevitable.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a there's a saying between cops and crooks

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Speaker 1: that and I've heard it's played out in movies. You

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Speaker 1: hear it has said a lot. The thing about being

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Speaker 1: a crook. You do your crime, you make one mistake,

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Speaker 1: you get caught. As cops, we can miss an opportunity,

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Speaker 1: but we might get you next time. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: always think, and I ask people, I'm asking you genuinely

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Speaker 1: or your friend of a friend that was committing these crimes.

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Speaker 1: What does it feel like knowing that at any time

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Speaker 1: there can be a knock on the door and your

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Speaker 1: life as you know it can be taken away, as in,

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Speaker 1: you can be put in the put in custody.

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Speaker 2: That's one thing that people don't realize. That's it's hell.

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Speaker 2: I hated it. I hated it, especially like when things

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Speaker 2: start getting bigger and you've got bigger and bigger piles

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Speaker 2: of drugs that you've got to move. You're doing bigger things,

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Speaker 2: you feel sicker, you feel really sick. Getting away with

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Speaker 2: it you feel great. It's just like great, sort of like,

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Speaker 2: oh awesome, I got away with it. Stress release. But

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Speaker 2: you don't feel good, you know, like you never feel

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Speaker 2: good when I'm getting in a car. I'd get in

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Speaker 2: a car and I drive for eight hours or nine hours,

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Speaker 2: and I'd have ten ounces of cocaine in the car

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Speaker 2: and I'd have, you know, whatever, could be a glock,

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Speaker 2: it could be ic, it could be three hours of

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Speaker 2: the MDMA, all of this all in one car load,

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Speaker 2: and I'm traveling for eight hours. You shit yourself. I

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Speaker 2: got pulled overy and got a speeding ticke at once.

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Speaker 2: But I couldn't believe the house I was in search

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Speaker 2: and that wasn't searched at all. It was just lucky.

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Speaker 2: I think it was just lucky. I had a Maldi

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Speaker 2: cop but she pulled me over and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: cutisses and she's like, oh, hey, Roy, how's it going.

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Speaker 2: She's like going a bit fast here. I said, oh,

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Speaker 2: how much? And she goes seventeen k's over the speed limit,

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Speaker 2: so it's not like a couple of kilometers. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, sorry about that, and she just gave me.

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Speaker 2: Secondly we go. I was like, thank god, But.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're living day to day. And when you were

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Speaker 1: using drugs too, when you were involved in dealing drugs

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Speaker 1: but using drugs, you'd have the high from using drugs

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Speaker 1: and then you'd have the paranoid that must kick in.

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Speaker 2: It must fish, especially of ice. Yeah, if you're using ice,

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Speaker 2: you're paranoid. As it is, you're always paranoid. But I

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Speaker 2: used to have these fuck I used to go nuts

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Speaker 2: and I would stand in my There was sometimes I'd

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Speaker 2: stand in my apartment and I looked through the peephole

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Speaker 2: for four hours plus, completely atrified, like your whole body

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Speaker 2: atrifies because you've just been and I'd just be looking

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Speaker 2: through a peepole like this for about two or three hours,

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Speaker 2: just looking at everything that moved.

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Speaker 1: When you come away from that, do you look back

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Speaker 1: and go, that's weird.

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Speaker 2: It's so weird. I think it's hilarious. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's the comedian to me, but I just think

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Speaker 2: it's so cooked. It's so cooked. I say, what are

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Speaker 2: you doing? Man? I can't believe what I was up to.

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Speaker 2: Some of the things I look back on, I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: that's cooked. Behavior.

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Speaker 1: Well, the other thing that came across was the fact that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad you said that that you have some

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Speaker 1: let's say, guilt for the crimes that you've committed and

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Speaker 1: the damage that you cause. You're not going through life

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Speaker 1: going yeah it was great. I got through it. You

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Speaker 1: can reflect on it and say, well, there's people that

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Speaker 1: you've hurt or people that you've impacted on their lives.

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Speaker 1: Still it talk us through those feelings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean that's always in the back of

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Speaker 2: my mind. That's kind of what I do. Why I

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Speaker 2: do what I do every day? Now, you know, like

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Speaker 2: all the things I do that I don't necessarily want

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Speaker 2: to do specially. It could be right down to like

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Speaker 2: just staying fit and healthy, all of those sort of things.

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Speaker 2: I do that so that I stay clean, so that

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Speaker 2: I don't hurt people given because I feel, you know,

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Speaker 2: like spishally, it's not so much that this obviously the victims,

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Speaker 2: I feel horrible, but it's really my family. I've lost

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Speaker 2: relationships over I lost a relationship over it, hurt a

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Speaker 2: lot of friends, and I affected people's lives, you know,

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Speaker 2: like some people were never going to be the same again.

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Speaker 2: So I always think about that, and I just now

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Speaker 2: I suppose I live. You live this life of like

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Speaker 2: sort of obligation, if you know what I mean, not

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Speaker 2: like in a religious way, but like obligation the sense

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Speaker 2: where it's like I'm obligated to do I've done really

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Speaker 2: bad things. I've got to make sure that I stay

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Speaker 2: I stay good because otherwise and it's all for nothing.

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Speaker 1: Well you must, you must have to hang on to that,

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Speaker 1: because I know, yeah, we're speaking to other people that

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Speaker 1: had addictions or lifestyles and all that. Quite often you're

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Speaker 1: one fil you're away or one set back away from

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Speaker 1: falling back into the old habits, So you've got to

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Speaker 1: consciously make sure you don't. Is that what you're saying here?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, yeah, yeah, you never. You're never far away

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Speaker 2: from relapse. It's only a couple of steps away. Like

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Speaker 2: I just had a bad armond croissant and I feel

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Speaker 2: like relapsing. So morning, I just.

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Speaker 1: Check with the producer or allowed to record a relapse

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Speaker 1: life that might take it to a new ground. You're

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Speaker 1: looking fit, like I must admit I saw you as

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Speaker 1: a walking into the studio. I think you look looking fit.

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Speaker 1: What are you doing to stay fit?

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Speaker 2: Just I swim? I swim heap seeh and I got

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Speaker 2: really into swimming only last year. Recently it was I

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Speaker 2: took my dad. My dad's got really bad dementia, and

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Speaker 2: he came over with my mum. Last year, I took

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Speaker 2: them to Icebergs. Wasted money if you're ever going to go.

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Speaker 2: But I went to Icebergs. They wanted to Gard's a

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Speaker 2: touristy thing, and so me and dad went swimming. And

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Speaker 2: this guy is like he can't read a book, smoked

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Speaker 2: me in the pool. I couldn't believe it. He's sixty

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Speaker 2: seven and he whipped me in the pool.

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Speaker 1: He's made.

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Speaker 2: The skills are just yeah, yeah, he could just keep going.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know if it's because he doesn't remember

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Speaker 2: that he was tired from the last lap and he

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Speaker 2: just does another one like a golf Maybe he's just

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Speaker 2: forgotten he's done a lap and he goes, oh, I

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Speaker 2: haven't even done a lap yet. Yeah, he smoked me.

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Speaker 2: So I got into it last year. I think the

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Speaker 2: first time I tried it, I did two hundred meters

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Speaker 2: and I just died on a pack of dat smoker.

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Speaker 2: And then after about a month I was doing like

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Speaker 2: seventeen minute kilometers.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, that's kicking, kicking a long yeah, in the pools.

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Speaker 2: In the pools, yeah, I do just because you've got laps.

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Speaker 2: You got it like a measure distance. You can tumble

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Speaker 2: and go back and you know how many times you've

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Speaker 2: done it, so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it just a lapse and you're not scared of sharks.

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Speaker 2: A little element of the guys have all of that.

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Speaker 1: I look at those people, whether it's down at Bondi

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Speaker 1: or any of the boachers, and they go out and

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Speaker 1: swim on dusk and get out there and swim headland

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Speaker 1: to headland. And the only thing I'd be hearing is

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Speaker 1: the theme music from George.

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Speaker 2: When I first came here, I lived in Manly and

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Speaker 2: they do Shally Beach and back every morning and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: what are you just doing? It's I am yeah.

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Speaker 1: Each that are only fact gives them the kick that

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Speaker 1: they need. So this is me being perceptive. But by

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Speaker 1: your accent, you didn't grow up here?

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Speaker 2: No, by my accent. If if you're wondering on one

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Speaker 2: of the bouncers here, yeah, I've only been here for

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Speaker 2: about two years.

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Speaker 1: You have made a reference to the fact there is

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Speaker 1: now that I reflect there is a lot of Kiwi bounces. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He's actually done it on stage a couple of days ago.

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Speaker 2: I got up and says, hell, everybody, I can't double

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Speaker 2: weeks in on one of the bouncers, and everybody just

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Speaker 2: lost it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, definitely. So where'd you grow up? In?

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Speaker 1: A place called Pickton? Not our Pickton, not.

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Speaker 2: Your Pickton similar, but our Pickton's at the top of

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Speaker 2: the South Island in the Marlborough Sounds. If you people

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Speaker 2: might have heard the Molber because it's called all the

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Speaker 2: savon Blanc and stuff like that. But we're in the

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Speaker 2: Marlborough Sounds, which is like it's a big sort of

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Speaker 2: mouth that is at the top of the South Island

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Speaker 2: but really beautiful. But similar to picked In in the sense

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Speaker 2: where it's a rural town, a lot of drug use,

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Speaker 2: sort of crying, a lot of yeah, a lot of

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Speaker 2: bad example.

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Speaker 1: Because it is that rural town and people are getting

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Speaker 1: a bit bored and different things.

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Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, opportunities are low, and it's not like

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Speaker 2: just opportunities. Isn't making money and stuff like that. They're

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Speaker 2: already always lower than the city, but it's opportunities of expression.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So your childhood, how would you describe it? Brothers, sisters? Oh,

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Speaker 1: you've got a twin.

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Speaker 2: Have you got a twin? Yeah, I got a twin.

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Speaker 1: I got older or younger.

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Speaker 2: He's older way fifteen minutes yeah, fifteen minutes older than me. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I got a twin. I got two older sisters.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I had a mixed up bringing. I

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Speaker 2: suppose everything about me is max with like ying and

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Speaker 2: Yang do everything.

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Speaker 1: But you try and work out how I was going

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Speaker 1: to introduce you.

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Speaker 2: How do you think I feel I'm trying to get

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Speaker 2: on stage and you're trying to do ten minutes of jokes,

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Speaker 2: and you go, how do I nail everything about me?

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I look, I had a really good one

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Speaker 2: and I had a really bad one at the same time.

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Speaker 2: You know. So, like I grew up in rural New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: it's stunning, beautiful place to grow up. Lots of really

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Speaker 2: cool adventures you can go on. You go fishing and hunting.

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Speaker 2: You could walk from my school from my high school

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Speaker 2: to my house and you could catch your first you

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Speaker 2: could get some muscles off the rocks, and you can

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Speaker 2: pull a passion through it off the vine and you

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Speaker 2: can eat all of that on the way. It's pretty cool,

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Speaker 2: pretty cool. But then at the same time, obviously like

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Speaker 2: getting section abuse, that's that sucked, and I didn't really

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Speaker 2: realize how much that affected my life. It's a shame

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Speaker 2: that it happened, but it's a shame that happened so

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Speaker 2: early on as my first two years at primary school.

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Speaker 2: So and it went from the age of probably about

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Speaker 2: five to seven, about two years that I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: how much that affected my life and my behavior until

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Speaker 2: probably about twenty years later, when I was about twenty five,

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Speaker 2: and when I started going to Traumac Countling, I was

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Speaker 2: like Oh my god, all the things that I've done,

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Speaker 2: you can sort of you can see a correlation and

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Speaker 2: pattern and behavior and stuff like that. But yes, it

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Speaker 2: was a mixed I mean a two oldest, two older siblings,

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Speaker 2: a twin brother. He's my best mate growing up. Absolutely

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Speaker 2: loved him the bits love my two older sisters. But

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Speaker 2: I always fought. I fought with everybody. A real scrapper,

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Speaker 2: and I think it was because of that. My mum said,

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Speaker 2: I went to school when I was five. I was

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Speaker 2: a really sweet kid, real happy.

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Speaker 1: Let's just unpack that, because, yeah, it takes courage to

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Speaker 1: talk about I've got an understanding of how much and

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Speaker 1: you touched on it, how much that can impact on

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Speaker 1: the pathway of your life. So you're only five years old?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Five. I think it might have still been four

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Speaker 2: when it first started, just because I was born a

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Speaker 2: little bit. I was born in March. I would have

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Speaker 2: started primary school at four years old.

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Speaker 1: Right, So did you tell anyone or did you have

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Speaker 1: an understanding of what was going on?

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Speaker 2: Nah? I had no. Look, I didn't tell anybody, not

305
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Speaker 2: until years later. But I didn't have an understanding of

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Speaker 2: what was going on at all. And this is probably

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Speaker 2: the hardest thing for I think a survivor to admit, well,

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Speaker 2: some of them anyway, some of them is completely the

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Speaker 2: opposite relationship and it's all forced. But like for me,

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Speaker 2: it was a lot of grooming and it felt like

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Speaker 2: a good time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the insidious nature of the crime, isn't it,

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Speaker 1: Because it is that grooming and it's confusing a kid.

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Speaker 1: The kid is looking whatever adult tells you is the

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Speaker 1: right thing to do it at that age, and so

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Speaker 1: you're feeling good about it, and then I would imagine

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Speaker 1: you look back in years down the track or just confusion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It's really confusing at the start. You

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Speaker 2: think it's just games. You're just playing games, you're just

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Speaker 2: being silly. Especially when you're four or five years old.

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Speaker 2: You've got no idea what's going on. You don't even

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Speaker 2: know what sex is, so you don't know what you're

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Speaker 2: doing is a sexual act. Don't even know what a

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Speaker 2: sexual act is. You don't even know how to spell

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Speaker 2: the way to act you're four years old. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it's really confusing. And then you build a relationship

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Speaker 2: with him and it sort of becomes like obligatory to

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Speaker 2: show up and to be a part of it, and

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Speaker 2: then I remember when it all got broken up, I

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Speaker 2: sort of just stuffed it away into the back of

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Speaker 2: my mind for years. And it wasn't until I started

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Speaker 2: puberty and I started looking at porn and stuff like that,

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Speaker 2: and then that's when it all sort of came flooding back.

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Speaker 1: You realized what was going on?

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Speaker 2: What was going on?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how how frequent was it?

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Speaker 2: It was at least once or twice a week?

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Speaker 1: And what just taking an opportunity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, normally it would be it would be a set

340
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Speaker 2: up time. It would be like meet me here at

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Speaker 2: this time. Because it was such a small school and

342
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Speaker 2: it was there was no concrete in the school. It

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00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 2: was all just paddocks. It was surrounded by farms. Were

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00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,640
Speaker 2: just meeting the toilets and and you know, there was

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Speaker 2: no one else around. So he'd be like, meet me

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Speaker 2: in the toilets today at this time.

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Speaker 1: And did like anyone noticed anything about you?

348
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Speaker 2: Like, I kept my mouth shut because so terrified.

349
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Speaker 1: And what had the perpetrator put that into your head

350
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Speaker 1: that this is our little secret? Yeah?

351
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you get caught, you've done something wrong,

352
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 2: you're in trouble, you know. So I felt if not

353
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Speaker 2: equally responsible, more responsible because I'm like, I'm doing this,

354
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Speaker 2: you know, like so they make you feel responsible for

355
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Speaker 2: the whole thing, and there was something going wrong. I

356
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Speaker 2: went to schools like a happy little kid, really happy

357
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Speaker 2: little kid, and then came home literally almost an overnight

358
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Speaker 2: shift of just a real angry, violent kid.

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Speaker 1: Well the confusion, like your senses will be telling you

360
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Speaker 1: something that's not quite right here, but then when you

361
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Speaker 1: look at it, well, I'm to blame because I'm complicit

362
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Speaker 1: in it. And that's how they manipulate, manipulate children. It's yeah,

363
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Speaker 1: but it plays a price. I want to talk about

364
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Speaker 1: when you discovered your sexuality and came out, do you

365
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Speaker 1: think this played the part being a victim? Or did

366
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Speaker 1: that just confuse your sexuality?

367
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Speaker 2: God, I'd love to answ. I'd love the answer to

368
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,240
Speaker 2: that question. You know how many years I spent there

369
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Speaker 2: thinking like, I'm not gay, I just got molested and

370
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Speaker 2: and and when I first when I was a teenager,

371
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Speaker 2: I used to have I used to sleep with heaps

372
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Speaker 2: of like heaps a woman, but quite a few women.

373
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Speaker 2: I see with quite a few women. Trying to make

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Speaker 2: myself straight. If I just do this enough times, it'll

375
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Speaker 2: break through the wall and then I'll just go back

376
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Speaker 2: to normal, you know what I mean, I've just got

377
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 2: a muscle through this and I'll be straight. And I'd

378
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,840
Speaker 2: love to know the answer to that. But I remember

379
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 2: talking to a therapist about it and she goes, you know,

380
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,480
Speaker 2: how many boys are molested? I think one in five

381
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 2: the New Zealand and molested every year. Shocking statistics. And

382
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,560
Speaker 2: it's probably not not any bitty here either. It's getting worse.

383
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Speaker 2: And how many of those guys end up being straight,

384
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Speaker 2: having wives and having kids, so it obviously didn't affect

385
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Speaker 2: their sexuality.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know. Well I spoke to Russell Manson

387
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about, who sadly asked away. He was a

388
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Speaker 1: victim of sexual childhood abuse and he carried with him

389
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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of guilt in the he said,

390
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 1: some of the by the very nature of the act,

391
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,640
Speaker 1: it was pleasurable. Yeah, because you have a reaction because

392
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 1: it felt he felt something and he was thinking, does

393
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,440
Speaker 1: that mean I'm homosexual? So he went through with some

394
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,440
Speaker 1: confused thoughts about his sexuality because he had been the victim.

395
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you do, you really do like you?

396
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 2: That was probably the biggest thing I had with me

397
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,960
Speaker 2: was yeah, don't be wrong. That caused a lot of

398
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 2: damage to the sexual abuse, but growing up in a

399
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,679
Speaker 2: really homophobic environment that stacked at double It was twofold

400
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,120
Speaker 2: because not only have I done this, but also it's

401
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 2: wrong because it was a guy. So now I feel

402
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 2: even worse about the whole thing.

403
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I can see how it's all packing down

404
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 1: on you. And so have you had any contact with him?

405
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:46,800
Speaker 1: So he's still alive or no?

406
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 2: And it was an interesting It was an interesting scenario

407
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,120
Speaker 2: where the original perpetrator was an older boy at my school.

408
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,080
Speaker 2: And then obviously I found out later on, after he'd

409
00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 2: sort of groomed me and gotten me roped into this situation,

410
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,479
Speaker 2: that it was all been conducted by an adult, so

411
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,840
Speaker 2: he was almost recruiting people for the unbeknownst to him,

412
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,919
Speaker 2: he didn't know what he was doing either. But the

413
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,160
Speaker 2: guy who he's gone, he's dead, he's died. And then

414
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 2: I've never spoken to that other kid about it before.

415
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,160
Speaker 2: I've wanted to fuck. There were someons in my lives

416
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,920
Speaker 2: I wanted I wanted to kill this can I can imagine,

417
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,679
Speaker 2: wanted to murder him. And then it wasn't soil. I

418
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 2: got the adulthood and I realized that, fuck, he was

419
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,199
Speaker 2: only a couple of years older than me.

420
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Speaker 1: He was probably a victim and manipulated.

421
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 2: To absolutely Yeah, yeah he was. Yeah, without its doubt,

422
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,119
Speaker 2: you know, because he used to think of all the

423
00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:34,840
Speaker 2: stuff they could do.

424
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Speaker 1: It discussed me like the perpetrators, and that's why, you know,

425
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Speaker 1: I have a lot of understanding for people that commit

426
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 1: crimes and that, but the impact that childhood's sexual abuse

427
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,400
Speaker 1: has on the victims' lives throughout their life is just unbelievable.

428
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:51,760
Speaker 2: It's unreal, and.

429
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Speaker 1: And it's done for their own the perpetrators, for their

430
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 1: own sexual gratification. Yeah, Like, it's just unforgivable.

431
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's unforgivable. I think the thing I found the

432
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 2: most shocking with all of it is it's there's just

433
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,720
Speaker 2: it's the same way they like, the same way you

434
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 2: and I would talk about somebody that we find attractive,

435
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 2: whether it be a lady for you or a feller

436
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 2: for me. It's the same there. But it's about a

437
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 2: ten year old, yeah, you know, a five year old.

438
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,160
Speaker 1: It's and there is no excuse for it, because there's

439
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 1: no mitigating circumstances that they're just they're just for their

440
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,200
Speaker 1: own personal pleasure, destroying people's lives.

441
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know why it happens for me.

442
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,240
Speaker 2: I sit back and I go, you know, you look

443
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 2: at all the you look at the world, and you

444
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: go like, why is this a regular occurrence in our

445
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,479
Speaker 2: in our world? And it doesn't matter what country you

446
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,639
Speaker 2: go to, what society and what religion is in that country,

447
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. It exists, exists everywhere. Yeah, it's rife.

448
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 2: It's getting worse. So it's getting so much worse. It's

449
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 2: out of control. Especially another can you look at statistics

450
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,480
Speaker 2: in America and stuff like that, and the amount of

451
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,680
Speaker 2: child trafficking is going on. And that's in a first

452
00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: world country. You go to somebody like Bolivia, or you

453
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,640
Speaker 2: go to some we're like Afghanistan or Pakistan or something

454
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 2: like that. It's a Russia. It's crazy.

455
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, it's something that we've all got to

456
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 1: speak up about. And I think they get away of

457
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,120
Speaker 1: it a lot. And I know this doing Predatory series,

458
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,399
Speaker 1: but also in the Cops, they get away with it

459
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 1: a lot because people don't want to talk about it

460
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 1: because it's too confronting. In a country a country town

461
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,919
Speaker 1: if you did go and blow it all up. I

462
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 1: don't know the perpetrator, but he's probably respected or known

463
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: in the country town. Everyone puts a lid on it

464
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,200
Speaker 1: because it's too confronting, and I think that's what we're

465
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 1: The step we've got to all take is Okay, we're

466
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 1: going to have to talk about it, and it's going

467
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,719
Speaker 1: to be an uncomfortable conversation, but let's get out there

468
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 1: and talk about it. And if it destroys lives, as

469
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 1: in the perpetrator and his family gets pulled apart, well

470
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,159
Speaker 1: we've got to start somewhere.

471
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the amount of the amount of

472
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 2: victim blaming in the amount of I think just denial

473
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 2: in the sense where the amount of kids. So I know,

474
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 2: well people I know who've gone to the appearance. Only

475
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 2: people've gone to the like you know, my stepdad's blesting me,

476
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 2: And I go to the mom and be like, you know,

477
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 2: your boyfriend's blesting me, and she'd be like, no, he's not,

478
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 2: or don't say that about him.

479
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 1: Happens so much, happens so much, and it's disgraceful. I

480
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 1: think there's got to be and I'm not one to

481
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 1: let's fix a problem by increasing legislation or bringing in

482
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 1: new laws. But I think there's got to be something

483
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 1: a very specific offense where it's brought to someone's attention

484
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: about child sexual abuse and that person doesn't act on

485
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 1: it because they're complicit. They're complicit in the offense if

486
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: they know it's happening, whether it's your partner that's sexually

487
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 1: solving the kid or whatever. If you know about it,

488
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: you've got some complicity in the in the offense, and

489
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: there should be specific charges for it.

490
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 2: I think so too. I don't know how to combat

491
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 2: that that issue in society. I don't think anybody really

492
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 2: knows how to combat that issue in society because they're

493
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: so vast, and it's like where do you start. Some

494
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 2: people just go just fucking shoot them all. Yeah, but

495
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 2: it's like there's not going to stop the problem. All

496
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 2: that's going to push it underground even more.

497
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: So we've got to make it harder for them to

498
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 1: commit the offenses. I think, make it make it harder.

499
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,640
Speaker 1: So that's when and whenever it blows up, you look

500
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: at the person and go, oh, yeah, I thought he

501
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 1: was a bit strange. He seemed to spend a lot

502
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 1: of time with kids or was the sand Yeah, yeah,

503
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: that that type of thing. Invariably, it's your instinct that's

504
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: telling you something's wrong, and we've got to start acting

505
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 1: on those instincts. Not not take law into your own hands,

506
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 1: but if you've got concerns about something, raise it and

507
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 1: encourage kids to talk about it, because let's you your example,

508
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: if the parents, if it's just again, fool proof in

509
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: the world, so these type of things can't happen if

510
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: they spoke to you. Now, if anyone's touching you and

511
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable about it, you can come and tell

512
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: us there's no shame in it. Blah blah blah. As

513
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,640
Speaker 1: a kid, maybe just maybe you might have come forward, Yeah,

514
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: told your parents.

515
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: You know, and if that works for one kid, then

516
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,959
Speaker 2: it's worth doing. Yeah. You know, whatever it works, well,

517
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 2: you've got to spridge in it wide. When you're sort

518
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 2: of trying to trying to deal with this issue, you

519
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 2: can't just trying to find one solution, you know, use

520
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: every tool in your toolbox, if you know what I mean.

521
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 2: I always felt like I was going to be like

522
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 2: I was going to bring shame to to myself and

523
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: to my mum. And I thought that I was going

524
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 2: to get in trouble, and I don't think I also

525
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 2: thought that, like, I just didn't want to bring that

526
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 2: whole miss and to my lives because I knew it

527
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: would break my mother's heart and I knew it would

528
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 2: make my dad go nuts, and I didn't want to

529
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: create that environment. So you just sort of bottle it up.

530
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: You just become a lightning rod really where you just

531
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 2: absorb it.

532
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: And well, the amount of people that are in prison

533
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 1: that have been victims of child sexual abuse is just frightening.

534
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: And I always thought when sex offenders, child sex offenders

535
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 1: went into prison, yeah, they'll call rock spiders and hated

536
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: and got that if the other prisoners could. It was

537
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,239
Speaker 1: pointed out to me by people who spent a lot

538
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: of the time in there. You know why we hate

539
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: them so much, not just the nature of their act,

540
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: because so many of us in here have been victims,

541
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: victims and that sort of very telling, isn't it. Yeah, Okay,

542
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: it stopped. How did it stop? First of all?

543
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 2: So, yeah, we moved house, we moved school and everything

544
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 2: like that, but the damage was done. By the time

545
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: I'd move to that next school, I was even I

546
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: was just an angry kid.

547
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: So you were this kid that no one could control

548
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: and lashing out.

549
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 2: I'd lash out and I hate being that. I hate

550
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: to think about it because it's so embarrassing now and

551
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: I think about it, But fun I used to do

552
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 2: we old should I'd throw access at my siblings. I'd

553
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: fucking chase them. I'm all a sixty years old and

554
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: I'm chasing my older sister of a knife, fucking stabbing

555
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 2: holes in the door like the seed of Chucky. It was, Yeah,

556
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 2: it was grim.

557
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: The way you're holding the knife. I was getting scared there.

558
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: I just moved.

559
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: I've been aching for t shit.

560
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, I asked this well, and you probably can't

561
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: answer it, but it's just thinking out aloud. If if

562
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: that was addressed and recognize what happened to you at

563
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: that age, and it was unpacked by professionals that know

564
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: how to dissect what you've been through and all the

565
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: emotions and the anger that you're holding on, do you

566
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: think it could have made a difference through the whole

567
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: pathway of your life.

568
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I don't think I would have done drugs

569
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: so eagerly, if you know what I mean. I would

570
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 2: have made a huge impact in my life. For I

571
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: wouldn't have gone to escape reality through drug and alcohol,

572
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: drugs and alcohol at eleven or twelve years old and

573
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: then found such a solace in that escape from reality,

574
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 2: and then because of that solace and that freedom of angst,

575
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have then developed such a strong connection to

576
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 2: doing it. That was how my addiction formed. That was

577
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: my escape. So yeah, I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have.

578
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: And then going down that path, you know, starting to

579
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: take drugs, that's where all the rest of it led.

580
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So I think you told me you were about

581
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: twelve when you start dabbling in alcohol and drugs. Yeah,

582
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: talk us through that. How did that play out?

583
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: Well? I tried alcohol before, but my parents don't drink.

584
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: My parents actually very strict, God bless him. My dad

585
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: was as a great guy. I love my dad the bits,

586
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: but he was really absent and real angry when we

587
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 2: were kids. And then my mom, she's the best. She's

588
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: such an amazing woman, real harsh but very fair. And

589
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 2: they don't drink, smoke, swear or gamble, and they don't

590
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: even let your swear in their house. My mom hates it.

591
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: Real strict school teacher. So I went. I remember hanging

592
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: out at the skate park when I was about eleven

593
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: or twelve and few my mates and stuff. They were

594
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 2: giving me heaps of shit because we didn't smoked weed yet.

595
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: We were twelve years old. Now, I can't believe you're

596
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 2: twelve and you haven't got the stone yet. What's wrong

597
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: with you? You're a loser. So that was like in

598
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: my head, I'm like, I've got to do this. They

599
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: can't be a loser. And we were hanging out, was

600
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: a few of my mates. We set up a little

601
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 2: tent in the backyard, and we went around to another boys,

602
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: Nanda's house. She had the best liquor cabinet ever. Real

603
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: good she was. I think she had liver cancer, it

604
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: was so good. We mixed all the little drops of

605
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,479
Speaker 2: alcohol together because she had such a big looking cap,

606
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: and we just pulled you make your own, make your

607
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: own little clocktown. We just filled up a big bottle

608
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 2: of a turn radioactive green. It was this weird green color.

609
00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: I think it must have been from the chartreuse or something

610
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: putting in there. And we all went back to this

611
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: little tent and we're having swigs and we ended up

612
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 2: getting pursed and I fell over and we will play

613
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: fighting or something like that, and I fell over. And

614
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: I remember fell over in the house and I looked

615
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: under cabinet or a bed. I looked under a bed

616
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 2: and I saw this little tobaccos and I thought, cool,

617
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: I'm going to be I'm going to be the slickest

618
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 2: guy out. I'm gonna have a cigarette and a drink.

619
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to look so cool. And opened the tobacco

620
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: tin up and it's fucking packed of weed, absolutely filled

621
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: of weed. And I was like, oh my god, this

622
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: is this is perfect. This is the I actually thought

623
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: in my head. The universe has provided at last. Yeah,

624
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you God. This is exactly what I

625
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: needed in my life. This is what was stopping me

626
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 2: from being cool. But I was at twelve, so I

627
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: had no idea how to smoke weed. I didn't know

628
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 2: what to do, how to roll a joint. Called this

629
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 2: rough and tumble boy. He was from up North, he'd

630
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: moved down there. It was real good mates of mine.

631
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 2: Great dude, absolutely loved him. He's get in so much trouble.

632
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: Pulled him up and I was like, oh, bro, do

633
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: you had to roll a joint, and he goes, yeah, bro, yeah, yeah,

634
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 2: I come around and he say. He gets on his

635
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 2: little pushbike and he bikes over to the house and

636
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: we roll a joint. And then he's either had spots

637
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: and I was like, no, never, and so he got

638
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: too hot. He got two button knives, stuck them in

639
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 2: the old coil element he used to get, stucked them

640
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: in the old coy element on the stovetop. Hit them

641
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 2: really hot, press a little bit of weed in between

642
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: the two of them. It's like got Jamaican jeffil Priez.

643
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: He pressed it and you're breathing all the smoke.

644
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, we're not advising this to listeners, but yeah,

645
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: I get what gets you.

646
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 2: It's like New Zealand's national way of smoking weed. If

647
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: you google spots, it'll pop up in Wikipedia. It'll go

648
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: commonly found in New Zealand.

649
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: Right, so the Wikipedia, well there you go. I knew

650
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 1: they were recognized for a lot of things.

651
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: But lamb Rugby spots pavlover to take that bullshit.

652
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: You can't steal the pavlov.

653
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: Leamington's crowded housela crowded house.

654
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, far Lap, maybe maybe, maybe okay, only a little island.

655
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: But hey, what's with the Scottish background as well? Who

656
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: mother father side? What?

657
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: There's both, yes, so both my dad. My dad's a

658
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: first generation immigrant. His parents are Cockneys. All their bloodline

659
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: came from to Scotland, but they were his parents are Cockneys.

660
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: They fell from Wisdam and they sailed over. I think

661
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: my grandfather was in the Merchant Navy. I don't know

662
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: a lot about my dad's family. He's got about twelve siblings.

663
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: He doesn't talk about them all. You are really traumatic childhood,

664
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: so he doesn't say much. I meet his mum with it,

665
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: but I never met his dad. So he's got Scottish.

666
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: But then my mum, her mum's Maldy and Scottish.

667
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: So just to explain that you've now lived in Australia

668
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: for a bit and you understand our relationship with our

669
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: first Nations people, and then what happens over in New Zealand.

670
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: There's a different way, isn't it That they look at

671
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: the Maori culture and the population I have got. I

672
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it, and I've been over

673
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: there quite a few times and looking at it, but

674
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: there's a reck there's the Maori speaking TV. There's a

675
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: lot of respect given to it, even your football teams

676
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: with the Harker and everything else. That starts off. What's

677
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: difference do you see between the way the relationship we

678
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: have in Australia with our First Nations people in the

679
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: relationship in New Zealand with the Maori people.

680
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: It's world's apart. And I always felt bad when they

681
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: first got here because we wins a lot in New

682
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: Zealand there, and to be fair, we've got every right

683
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 2: to for a lot of it. But the big difference

684
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: because I used to win me like, you know, we

685
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: don't have enough rights, and then I get here and

686
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: they don't have any They don't have anything. They've got nothing,

687
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: and it's you know, I did a joke on stage,

688
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: I go, you know therese there were six hundred Indigenous

689
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: languages in Australia. They've got ever six hundred ways to

690
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: say sorry, and the white people don't have won, you know.

691
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: But it's a different it's such a different environment there

692
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: because of the way it started. You know, first and

693
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: foremost New Zealand Maldi's are the only indigenous people in

694
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: the world. And it never be conquered, so we never

695
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 2: got conquered. They never stole like they stole our land

696
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: years later. But we signed a treaty Scientificity or White Tonguy,

697
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: which is the Treaty of White Tonguey, and one of

698
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: my ancestors signed that I've got them here on my arm,

699
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: my great great great great grandfather. He's Scientificity or White

700
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: Tonguy and the Declaration of New Zealand. So because of

701
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: that treaty, we shared sovereignty of the land, so we

702
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: split everything. It didn't work out in that way. We

703
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: didn't have a written language, and they stuffed us on

704
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: the paperwork. They did two different documents, one in Maldi

705
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: and one in English, and then lost the Maldi one

706
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: and kept the English one. And then yet we found

707
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: the Malti one years later and found out that they

708
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: had changed a bunch of stuff and they had lied

709
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: and they jipped us on the paperwork. But that's why

710
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: that that's why we have such a good relationship, because

711
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: we've actually got a binding contract saying no, no, we've

712
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: got that, this is our and we every year we've

713
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: got White Tonguey Day where we go to the White

714
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: Tonguy tribunal and we go, hey, look they're trying to

715
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: encroach on our side or whatever whatever.

716
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, I look, I found it fascinating. I was

717
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: over in New Zealand. We've person I have seen an

718
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: Indigenous lady that was doing a keynote at the Big

719
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: Maori Conference and talking about the way that First Nations

720
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: people are treated over here, and sitting in the audience

721
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: with all this Maori audience. They were outraged when this

722
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: person pointed out that our First Nations people were treated

723
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: as flora and fauna up.

724
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: Until nineteen six.

725
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, eighty six or.

726
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: Eighty nine, something like that.

727
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a little bit, a little bit earlier. But

728
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: when that was said, I'm sitting there with the Maori

729
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: population and they were outraged. And then they said and

730
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: what do you do? And I said, I'm a policeman

731
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: and they were.

732
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: Still are outraged.

733
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: But I went out with a group of Maori's that

734
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: night and we're talking about what was going on. It

735
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: was around the time when there was a bait on

736
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: whether we say sorry, whether the government says sorry for

737
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: the way First Nations people were treated. And they said,

738
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: see that's the difference with you guys. If they came

739
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: up to us and said sorry, we'd say, well, we'll

740
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: consider whether we're going to forgive you. But that's the

741
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: power that they had. So the relationship is even though

742
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: we're so close together. But you've explained it in part

743
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: because they never were defeated by.

744
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: They never were conquered. The way that the English managed

745
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: to do it. The way that the Crown managed to

746
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: do it was they just slowly started taking more and

747
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: more and more and just stealing land off people, and

748
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: they started all these these funny acts where they were

749
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: they were allowed to take the land because it benefited

750
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: the greater population of New Zealand, but then they would

751
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: lease the land back to white people, but they put

752
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: them on twenty five year rotating leases that were never

753
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: that could were always renewed. So you'd had families that

754
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: were on stolen land and they were leasing it off

755
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 2: the crown for hundreds of years and it's all stolen land.

756
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: So like little things like that. But they only really

757
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: started to I think a lot of the damage was

758
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: done was the last century. It wasn't the one before that.

759
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: It was a pretty good neck, but then last century

760
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: that's when they spanned all ted ol Maldian schools. You

761
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to speak the native language. And school you

762
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to and you know, Malory's couldn't get jobs,

763
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: you couldn't get rental. Even today, they still struggle to

764
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: get rentals if you've got a Malory last name. And

765
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: that's why a lot of almost all my cousins don't

766
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: have Maldy names, because our grandmother said, don't get one.

767
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: Because you get discriminated against.

768
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get discriminated against. Yeah. It was really bad.

769
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 2: And she when she first went to school, she grew

770
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 2: up on a park which is like tribal lands, and

771
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: when she went to school, she couldn't speak English because

772
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: nobody really spoke English at home. And so when she

773
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: got the school, they used to give you the cane

774
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 2: if you spoke Maldy. So they just cane this poor

775
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: girl until she learned English. They just hit you every

776
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: time you opened your mouth. You learnt real quick. But

777
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 2: it was horrible, and there was all these sort of

778
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: all these stories of well lot like you know, people

779
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: getting their jaws broken, kids being bashed, getting put in

780
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: the hospital for speaking Maldy. And then a huge amount

781
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: of boys they all got taken out around the forties

782
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: and fifties. They all got taken away from their families

783
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 2: from like as young as eight or nine years old

784
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: and put in boys homes, which is kind of like

785
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 2: you were guys, similar to what you guys had here

786
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: the rabbit proofense sort of situation. So and solar generation. Yeah,

787
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: so there's a bit of that going on in New Zealand.

788
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: See a lot of Pacific Islanders and Mildi's were taking off

789
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 2: their families and I mean that's the whole reason why

790
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: the Black Powers in New Zealand. You know, the Black

791
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 2: Power in New Zealand is the second biggest gang in

792
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 2: New Zealand. It's huge. Oh yeah, it's a massive gang.

793
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: It's a massive organization in New Zealand now. But that

794
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 2: all started in a new town in Wellington, because they

795
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: would go where's the police are going around and harassing

796
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: all the all the Indigenous people that would walk around

797
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: and be the witnesses and that your cameras and stuff

798
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 2: like that, and they'd make sure that the police brutality

799
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: wasn't happening because they could witness it. So they started

800
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 2: as a movement as an organization and then developed into

801
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: it into a Deadly Gang.

802
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 1: So you're talking about the Black Power Gang.

803
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

804
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: No, they've got a heavy, heavy reputation, very heavy.

805
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

806
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: But look, I suppose my observation of it is that

807
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: New Zealand and you've just corrected me on quite a

808
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 1: few things because I didn't realize that all the shit

809
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: had gone down on New Guys as well from Maori

810
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: point of view. But my sense of it, they were

811
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: more culturally aware and accepting of the Mari culture in

812
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: New Zealand than what I see with Australia and now

813
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: Indigenous South First Nations hugely.

814
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a massive contrast. How different you get

815
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: on a train in Auckland. You're going to hear the

816
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 2: next stop in Maldi and then in English, so there's

817
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: a huge difference, you know. And they have like we've

818
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: got two or three radio stations. They've got at least

819
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 2: two TV channels, so it's you know, we've got our

820
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 2: own political party, so things are that. And it's designated

821
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: indigenous seats in New Zealand. So like when you go

822
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: to your electorate, I'm I'm Teitye Tokoto now, but that's

823
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 2: instead of voting for like a member of parliament, in

824
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: Erskineville or what. I vote for an Indigenous member of

825
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: Parliament for my area, so they'd be like Auckland, there'll

826
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: be Northland, could be Wellington. So yeah, so instead of

827
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: me voting for the labor MP who's for Uskuneville or whatever,

828
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: you'll vote for the indigenous MP who's for that whole area. Okay,

829
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: And it's always at least x amount of seats, I

830
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: think seven or ten seats dedicated to indigenous people. So

831
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: no matter who gets into politics, he's.

832
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: Always at least you've got you've got a voice set. Yeah, okay,

833
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: well progress further than we have here. Yeah, okay, we

834
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: talk about discrimination. You're left handed, how it's affected your life.

835
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 2: It's been it's you know, that's been my spiral into drugs.

836
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: That was the reason why, you know, somebody should have

837
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: stopped it. It was witchcraft. And then now I've gone

838
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 2: down the devil's path because I never used my right hand.

839
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: And they were right all those years ago, they were

840
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: right about saying that it's.

841
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: An embarrassment the burden you've had to carry your whole life.

842
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 2: My whole life. Yeah, it's with some being gay where

843
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: I come from left handed, I love throwing that one,

844
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: especially in that joke, because yeah, I love diversity and

845
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: I love being proud of her am, but also like

846
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: you can start throwing all sorts of random shit in there.

847
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 2: So it's just to sort of make that whole thing.

848
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: Cell they say that I'm.

849
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: Not well, it shows how discrimination, how ridiculous it is

850
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: where we don't like you you use your left hand.

851
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, but the discrimination. I struggled with it a

852
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 2: lot when I was younger, and that was another thing

853
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 2: that made me a really angry kid. I always wanted

854
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: to be Maldy, and I love being Mardy, and I

855
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: am Mildy. Don't get me wrong. I am I am Maldy,

856
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: and I love it. I love the culture, I love

857
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: all about it. But I'm not brown. I look like

858
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: I'm fucking Connor McGregor, and I'm trying to tell me

859
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: one indigenous. And I've got a brown twin brother. That

860
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 2: was the worst part, you know. I'd grow up with

861
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: this fellow next to me all the time, and he

862
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 2: was brown all year round. I can get brown in

863
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 2: the summer, but it's just a really good tan.

864
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: But You've brought up an interesting point there, and I've

865
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 1: heard people say that before First Nations, people light skin

866
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: and they're in the same family, same parents, and it's

867
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: just how you come out. I can understand what you're saying. Hey,

868
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: I'm Mary brother, I'm with you, and they're looking at

869
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: you going, no, you look like Conor McGregor.

870
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're a white fellow. Yeah, and then like you're

871
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: too brown for the white fellaws. And then you're too

872
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: white for the brown fellaws. So what do you do?

873
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 2: You don't fit in anyway. You're raised in an indigenous

874
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: community or heavily indigenous community the couple Harker. As a kid,

875
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: I embraced it all and I would have gone a

876
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: lot further with that, but I had my own cousins

877
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: calling me a white fellow, Like, we're cousin, what are

878
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 2: you talking about?

879
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: So you were going to add a little bit more

880
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: to complicate your life and decide you were going to

881
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: be gay as well?

882
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: Yay as well. Yeah, that's a lifestyle choice. I want

883
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: everybody to know that.

884
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: How long did you suppress that for? When did you

885
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 1: realize that your interest is in the boys not the girls?

886
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: And what was it like growing up in that environment?

887
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: Because the environment you described sounds like a tough environment

888
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: that's not for the faint hearted. I don't expect that

889
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: it would be something that was embraced.

890
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 2: No, no way, no way. It was hell. It sucked.

891
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 2: I think I would have noticed probably around teen, or

892
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: you know, around the same age that boys noticed girls.

893
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 2: I noticed Legalis and Lord of the Rings, and I

894
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: fell in love. I was like, who's this beautiful, tall,

895
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: skinny park yard white fella. He's so gorgeous. It was

896
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 2: longlone here. Loved them the bits and then and then

897
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: after that I sort of noticed, but there was just

898
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: sort of an urge. It wasn't any like sort of

899
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: formed thought of I'm attracted to you and I'm attracted

900
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 2: to me, and it was just kind of like, Wow,

901
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: that guy's fucking beautiful.

902
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: And so that that's from the sort of age of teen. Yeah,

903
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: you're starting to starting to say that. Were you trying

904
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: to suppress that? Were you, like you're probably you're only

905
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: getting to the stage where you're starting to realize, you know,

906
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: which which path that your life's going to take. Did

907
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: you try to suppress that to please your mates, to

908
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: please your family?

909
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh yeah, of course, yeah, without a doubt. And

910
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to bring any shame to anybody. That's

911
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,439
Speaker 2: such a shameful thing. I didn't want to bring shame

912
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: to my family and shame to myself and shamed and

913
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 2: my friends.

914
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: And isn't it sad we sit here talking about bringing

915
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: shame because of because of your sexuality.

916
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: Sexuality, and then all the shameful acts identity years later

917
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 2: because of all that. It's it's the irony is it's

918
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: almost like a Greek epic.

919
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: So when did it come out? When did it or

920
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: when did you come out? Not all? I was about

921
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: twenty one, Oh right, you fought against it thres.

922
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: Go for years. For almost all my teenage years, I

923
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 2: was sleeping with girls, and then later on I was

924
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,479
Speaker 2: about sixteen or seventeen, that's when I started falling around

925
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: of guys. I knew I was gay, probably by the

926
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: age of about fourteen, but tried to suppress it a lot. Yeah,

927
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 2: tried to, like a high level lot. You know, I'm

928
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 2: sleeping with girls, I'm trying to have it. I think

929
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: I tried to have a girlfriend at one point, all

930
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 2: the way up until about eighteen or nineteen.

931
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: Big big secret to suppress.

932
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really tough, real tough. But then when you've

933
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 2: got you know, you've got two different elements going on

934
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: there where I remember there was a fellow he's in

935
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 2: his forties, he's come out of the closet. Good on him,

936
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: Like wow, it's so brave, it's so brave. His fellow's

937
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: brother and his cousins they bashed him with the storm

938
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: drain great and cracked a scallope and put him in

939
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 2: a coma for six months. He's got permanent brain damage.

940
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: Now seriously, because and this is someone within your community. Yeah,

941
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: so what that would have played on your mind?

942
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: Definitely, Yeah, definitely. And it wasn't just the fact that

943
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: if you come out you're going to get bashed. It's

944
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: not necessar alreally the scariest part, especially if you've had

945
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: a couple of hidings, you're like, okay, yep, it's more

946
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: the fact that you're what you're done is is a

947
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: deaf sentence. Being gay is a death sentence because because

948
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,479
Speaker 2: it's so wrong, that's really what that sees. It doesn't

949
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 2: really mean. It's not like a fear of getting a hiding.

950
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: It's it's it's the shame and the guilt of like,

951
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: oh god, I'm so wrong, that it's worth killing for.

952
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: And nobody batter than Eylid.

953
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: How old were you when that happens.

954
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: So I would have been eleven or something.

955
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're old enough to sort of comprehend it.

956
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: Jesez that morning sign for that.

957
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 2: And you hear all sorts of comments too, growing up

958
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: and environments like that, you know, you hear comments like

959
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 2: they have a dead son and then a gay one.

960
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 2: You know, gay people deserve to get aids and die

961
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: and all all these sort of comments, and they're disgusting.

962
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: They make me sick, and yeah, it was the worst

963
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: thing you could be where it come.

964
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: From when those type of comments, And I can just imagine,

965
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: and they're the type of comments that you're here. I

966
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: think we're becoming more informed now, but back then, it's not.

967
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: It's not ancient history, recent times. But did you to

968
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: mask what you were hiding? Did you join in on

969
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: those comments? Of course you were bluddy gay's.

970
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: A gay homophobe? Yeah, I was a gay home of

971
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: gay homophobe.

972
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: And did you ever compensate you? Yeah?

973
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: I was At one stage in my life. I was

974
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 2: probably one of the worst people at school. But I

975
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: think that just that came from my own hatred of

976
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 2: of being gay. I felt like I was cursed. I

977
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: felt like that this man had molested me, had made

978
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 2: me like some sort of sick, deviant pervert, and for

979
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: now I, from now on, I was cursed. It was

980
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: like some sort of fable or some sort of like epic.

981
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 2: It was like it was like the tale of my life.

982
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: I've been cursed. This as like this burden. I've been cursed.

983
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: If I used to curse the gods, I used to

984
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: curse creation because I was like, how dare you do

985
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 2: this to me?

986
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: You' And that's that hate that you've got them just loathing,

987
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: self loathing.

988
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: South loathing. I absolutely hated myself. I had no self esteem,

989
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: no self worth, and and I was really angry at

990
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 2: the world.

991
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: So did that all that that culmination, have been sexually abused,

992
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: suppressing your sexuality and all this sayinger building up and

993
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: your drugs you're finding an escape from it. And then

994
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: the life of crime is the world's best criminal that's

995
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: never been caught or your friend of a.

996
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: I never had the world's best detective Batman, I'm looking

997
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 2: for me.

998
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: Like you didn't come across my patch. The type of

999
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: crimes that you're doing, like through the teenagers. What sort

1000
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: of crimes are we talking about?

1001
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 2: Dumb shirt country bunkin sort of crimes. It was anything

1002
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 2: I think. I think I would have been ten when

1003
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: I burgled the house, living in the fist on a

1004
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 2: bogled house when I was ten. And you don't realize

1005
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 2: it now til you get older, but you're like put

1006
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: you in through the manhole and you're the one. You're

1007
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 2: going through the little window to get in there. Because

1008
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: if you get caught when you're ten, like you're getting

1009
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 2: taken home to your parents. That's all that's happening. And

1010
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 2: never already been caught. I don't know how many times

1011
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: they can't get caught again. So they sent me in there.

1012
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: Funny story though, like you know, I went in there

1013
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: and I had no comment except of the value of anything.

1014
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 2: So like I went into this house and I'm ten

1015
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: years old, and I mean another guy going in there.

1016
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 2: I mean another kid who going to this into this house.

1017
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: I remember sneaking around and we thought it was empty,

1018
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: and then what this is a just as cushion to

1019
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: the wind. But like the guy whose house we were robbing,

1020
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: he was in my class, he's actually a made of mine.

1021
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 2: And he bragged about he was going away all weekend.

1022
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to wait for the weekend. I'm going to

1023
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: kay Koda or something like that, and I was like,

1024
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: fuck you, you get to get away for the weekend.

1025
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: We sort of talked about it and I mentioned it

1026
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 2: to my said, oh, he's going await for the weekend

1027
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: or a lucky fellow and they're like what, Like yeah,

1028
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: they're like all week in. I was that year and

1029
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 2: they're like, sweet, sweet, this house is going to be empty.

1030
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: Empty house. Yeah, empty house, straight away. Empty house. That

1031
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 2: Friday night we were around there. I thought maybe it

1032
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: was a Saturday afternoon, and I thought the house was empty,

1033
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 2: and then I realized it was somebody sleeping in one

1034
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 2: of the rooms. There's nothing scarier than thinking there's an

1035
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: empty house and you're mid burgle and you're sneaking through

1036
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: the house a cat. You think you're an ocean's twelve,

1037
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden you can hear snoring

1038
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: in the next room. You're like, oh God, what do

1039
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 2: I do? I just went white. But when I came out,

1040
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 2: it's the funniest part of those stories. When I came

1041
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: out they were like, what did you steal? What did

1042
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 2: you steal? What did you steal? I'm a ten year old.

1043
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, I got the best haul ever.

1044
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 2: And I opened up this little bag and I've got

1045
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 2: a fucking super soaker at a w W figurine.

1046
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you've come out with a Teddy

1047
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:25,959
Speaker 1: Bear or something. Yeah.

1048
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 2: I still I stole toys. Yeah, I still kids shit.

1049
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: I got a fucking really big super socer, I got

1050
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 2: some wrestling figurines. I still he I stole kid shit

1051
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 2: because like what I wanted, Like, I don't know what

1052
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 2: the I think the only things I stole that went

1053
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 2: kids toys were worthless things because I'd only really seen

1054
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: theft and cartoons. So I stole a literal candlestick as well.

1055
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: Did you did you have a comprehension that that time

1056
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: what you're doing was bad or will you be surrounded

1057
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: by all the kids that are.

1058
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 2: I knew it was bad. I got a strict mum.

1059
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 2: I knew it was bad. I knew I was stealing.

1060
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 2: I knew stealing was wrong. Yeah, yeah, so I knew

1061
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: I was stealing. I knew stealing was wrong. It was

1062
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,879
Speaker 2: at a little bit more fun. In your kid brain,

1063
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 2: you can sort of like you're in a house and

1064
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 2: it's empty, feel like you've got free rein. It's almost

1065
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 2: like a mad dash shopping spas exciting.

1066
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: It's exciting as a kid that age, breaking into breaking

1067
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: into a house. I get that, Okay, So where did

1068
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: it progress?

1069
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 2: I think after that it was like a lot of

1070
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 2: the stuff we would do was just be dumb. It

1071
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: was just dumb stuff. It was. It was never like

1072
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 2: apart from fighting and the rest of it, there was

1073
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 2: and burglary, there was nothing else that was really that crazy.

1074
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: It was just silly stuff. Up until about fourteen, we

1075
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: would play this game. You have to about fourteen or fifteen,

1076
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: we would play this game where we would stand on

1077
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: the edge of the state highway and as the freight

1078
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 2: trucks went through our town, we'd pick little group grape

1079
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: fruit off these trees and we'd throw them at the

1080
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: windshields of the truck. They're trying try and crack the

1081
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: windshields so the truck driver would pull over and chase us.

1082
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 2: I fucking loved it. It was the best thing ever.

1083
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: And they'd always call the cops. I'd radio the cops.

1084
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: The cops had come down and chase you too, and

1085
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: you'd had this cat and mouse game of all these kids.

1086
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 2: Here's probably about ten of us throwing throwing lemons and

1087
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: grapefruits at trucks, and then the cops would come out

1088
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: and we'd all run from it and try and hide

1089
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 2: in the bushes.

1090
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: And you have no comprehension at that age of the consequences.

1091
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: I went through a stage at yeah, early teenage years

1092
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: that the success of a day was how many people

1093
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 1: chase you. Yeah, like, it's what sort of stupid stuff?

1094
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: Then you do no understanding of the consequences and you

1095
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: do stupid stuff, and it's a great day if you've

1096
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: been chased from pillar of the post.

1097
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you've got away with it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1098
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: And I used to love, I used to love the

1099
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,959
Speaker 2: whole thing of the cops are coming. Then you jump

1100
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 2: a fence, and you jump a fence, and you jump

1101
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 2: a fence, and you know, you'd see where you ended up.

1102
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: You had no idea where you're going. You're just jumping fences.

1103
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 2: You don't know if you're going to make it. And

1104
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: there be times when I could feel the footsteps of

1105
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: the of the cops. They're so close you could feel

1106
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: the thud of the boots behind you when you were

1107
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 2: running and you're just trying to get to that fence

1108
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: so you could jump it. Yeah, absolutely loved it. But

1109
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: then looking back as an adult, you're like, I just

1110
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: threw it. I just cracked the windshield of a freight truck,

1111
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 2: you know, like a road train.

1112
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: Could have brought death on Yeah.

1113
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: Easily, Yeah, easily. Yeah.

1114
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: Did you have anyone that could see you were off track?

1115
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: What was your twin brother like?

1116
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 2: Wasn't Probably as reckless as me. I don't think he

1117
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: never fought as much as me. I thought way more

1118
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: than he did. Normally he'd be lippy and I'd get

1119
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: in the fight because of it.

1120
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: He'd start it, you'd finish.

1121
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a couple of times he started he started

1122
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 2: this fight. One there was one fight at school. He

1123
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 2: started with this other Malti kid and had a wicked

1124
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: temper when since he was little, he had such a

1125
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: bad temper anyone my brother was riling up. He used

1126
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 2: to love riling people up. He thought it was the best.

1127
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 2: And then I wouldn't normally have to step and fucking

1128
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: rolled this little kid up. He's had a year younger

1129
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 2: than us, and this kid spits it and he goes

1130
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: nuts and he goes to he couldn't get my brother,

1131
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:56,919
Speaker 2: and so he goes to choke one of my mates,

1132
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 2: and I was like, fucking get off of man, and

1133
00:49:58,320 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 2: pulled him off hi, and he goes to choke me.

1134
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: So I grabbed this poor kid and I pulled his

1135
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: head down. I just copped him with a knee right

1136
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: and I was probably about fourteen. I need him in

1137
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: the face as hard as I could, burst all his

1138
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: lips open, knocked his front teeth out, broke his fucking nose.

1139
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: And that was the first time I was like, wow,

1140
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: I can really hurt somebody. Yeah I can. I can

1141
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: really hit something. But yeah, that's because my brother was

1142
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 2: just being lippy in this poor.

1143
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 1: Kid, you're backing him up. So all right, let's take

1144
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: you to the seventeen and eighteen. Where was your life

1145
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: heading and what were you doing at that point in time.

1146
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 2: I was pretty I was pretty lost because by about fourteen,

1147
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: I'd started doing acid, I'd started doing pills. I'd started

1148
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: doing this, and here was a feller in the community.

1149
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: He was selling pills that were like he's selling the

1150
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 2: mass for ten dollars each. We'd sell them for thirty.

1151
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 2: We had this big lolli jar of pills. Had no

1152
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 2: idea what was in the pills. We thought they were

1153
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: party pills because back in the day in New Zealand

1154
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: they used to be able to get legal highs, which

1155
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: are like weaker and fetter means. There was a compound

1156
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 2: going around called bzy peete and BZP was about forty

1157
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,959
Speaker 2: times this potent and myth and feed mean. And there's

1158
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 2: this weird steampunk chemist and he started making these compounds

1159
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: and selling them legally on the open market and thinking

1160
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 2: it was going to it was gonna reduce like drug harm,

1161
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 2: and it didn't because like even though it's like say,

1162
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 2: it's twenty times he's potent in men.

1163
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: So it wasn't on the on the restricted, No.

1164
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 2: He was people were selling it out of shops. He

1165
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 2: had party pill shops, had parti shops, and people were

1166
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: selling legal highs out of it. He's thinking it's going

1167
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: to reduce drug harm. But if it's twenty times he's

1168
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: potent in myth, people just take twenty of them, do men? Right?

1169
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: Okay?

1170
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,479
Speaker 2: So they were just overdosing on dance floors. Our people

1171
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 2: were dehydrating, they were collapsing and getting paranoid and schizophrenic

1172
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 2: sort of symptoms and people just going off the deep end.

1173
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 2: So he stopped doing it, and he was like, this

1174
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: isn't increasing, this isn't reducing drug harm. I'm going to

1175
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 2: stop it. This isn't not the r right. He was

1176
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 2: actually legit, legit guy. Yes, it wasn't a drug dealer.

1177
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 2: It wasn't a drug pusha. He wanted to try and

1178
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 2: create an environment where we could people could take drugs,

1179
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: enjoy it and safely. Yeah. Yeah, that's a lovely thing.

1180
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 2: But humans always going to take it to the nth degree.

1181
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 2: And this failure he brought instead of everybody was getting

1182
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 2: rid of the stock as it was getting made illegal,

1183
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 2: Like it's going to be made illegal, I'm not making anymore.

1184
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 2: He contacts the go and goes, I'll buy everything you've

1185
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 2: got form the cheap and which is a stupid thing

1186
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 2: to do if you think about it. But what this

1187
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 2: guy did, he just used it to cut his myth,

1188
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: because it's just a derivative a myth, So he just

1189
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: used it as a cutting agent because he brought it

1190
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 2: really cheap, so he buys all of this as a

1191
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: cutting agent. He starts pressing all these pills pure myth.

1192
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 2: And then one of these beezy b pills and we

1193
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 2: were taking them. I had no idea what was so

1194
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: you thought it was a BPZ. I thought it was

1195
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 2: party pill. Yeah, I thought it was a party pill.

1196
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 2: I thought it was a big kids for taking. I

1197
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, this is what people say. They buy

1198
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 2: it from the shop. I didn't know it was an actual,

1199
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 2: like a really addictive drug.

1200
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: So when did you know that you were addicted?

1201
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 2: Probably about a year later. I remember about a year later,

1202
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: we're taking them every weekend. I remember about a year later,

1203
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 2: we were going to a party and I'm fifteen at

1204
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 2: this point, and all I had was a bottle of

1205
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: whiskey and weed, and I was like, this is a

1206
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: shit night, and sort of started throwing a bit of

1207
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 2: a tansy and everyone's like what's wrong. I was like,

1208
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: this is gonna be shit. I don't even need drugs.

1209
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 2: And that was really really dawned on me. And somebody

1210
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 2: said to me there like fuck man, Like, yeah, you've

1211
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: got a bottle of whiskey and a bag of weed

1212
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: and you're winging like it's not good enough for you,

1213
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: and like you're fifteen, like and I was like, wow,

1214
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: that's it didn't stop me. That's when I really sort

1215
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: of started to notice and my tolerance was so high.

1216
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 2: I'd gone from taking one or two of these pills

1217
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: and being like completely out of my mind. Now I'm

1218
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 2: taking ten of them a night.

1219
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So how did your fund your your drugs?

1220
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,919
Speaker 2: Well, if you've been selling drugs, then I always worked.

1221
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 2: I've always worked. I have always worked. There's been times

1222
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 2: in my life where I've been especially when I've been

1223
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 2: in recovery, and I've been a bit down and out,

1224
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 2: i haven't had a job, but I've pretty much always

1225
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 2: waked my whole life since the age of twelve. So

1226
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 2: I would work, and I'm in my first job. I

1227
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 2: used to make twenty three dollars a week. That was

1228
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 2: when I was twelve, and that would get me enough

1229
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: money for a bottle of vodka and a packet of cigarettes.

1230
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 2: And that was me every weekend from the age of twelve.

1231
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: When I say, I'm surprised that you weren't pulled up

1232
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: with all this, like you didn't get in trouble with

1233
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: the cops, like you never you never went to court.

1234
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 2: No, never went to court, never went to court. And

1235
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's because and like I did it,

1236
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: I've done a lot worse. I've done some really serious crimes.

1237
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: Can I help you here? Say your friend of a

1238
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: friend did a lot worse?

1239
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 2: A lot is thinking that. I mean, I've already been

1240
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 2: kicked out home by sixteen, so I had nowhere to live.

1241
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 2: I was homeless. I fucked up so many times. My

1242
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 2: mom's a good lady, but she's really strict. And she

1243
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 2: just said, look, if you're doing drugs, you gotta leave.

1244
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: You want to act like an adult. You can't do

1245
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,280
Speaker 2: drugs in my house. You want to act like an adult,

1246
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:50,919
Speaker 2: then you can live like one. And she just packed

1247
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: my bag. She never swore at me ever, tough love.

1248
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: She never swore at me. And so I was sixteen

1249
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 2: and she packed my bag and she just threw it

1250
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 2: out of the fence and said fuck off. And that's

1251
00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: when I was I was like, oh, well, I stuff

1252
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:00,439
Speaker 2: up here.

1253
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: You you're, yeah, an intelligent blake. You've got the emotional intelligence.

1254
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: You look at life, you stand up comedy, and you

1255
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: understand things at that point in time with your mum sixteen,

1256
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: throwing your bag over the fence and telling you the

1257
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: fuck off. Did you reflect on what the vibe become?

1258
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, a lot. I think that that was one

1259
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: thing that really created a spiral in my life was

1260
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: I was always very aware of what was going on.

1261
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 2: I'm very aware of my behavior, but I couldn't stop.

1262
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 2: So then you feel really bad because you're like, I know,

1263
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 2: bitter of but I'm not because if you know body,

1264
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: you should do better. But knowing that you're doing something wrong,

1265
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: but you can't stop yourself.

1266
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 1: Because you need that fix, And does that play into

1267
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: that self wathing? Well, yeah, I'm a shithead. I'm going

1268
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: to be more of a shithead.

1269
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a piece of shit. Yeah, And that's what

1270
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 2: you just keep telling yourself. I'm a piece of shit

1271
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 2: because you're behaving like a piece of shit. You know

1272
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 2: you are? You are?

1273
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: You know It's so destructive, isn't it?

1274
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1275
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: Is there anything that do you think at that age

1276
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: and we're talking the sixteen seventy when you kicked out

1277
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: at home, anything that anyone could have done the grab

1278
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: hold of you and go what what are you doing?

1279
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 1: But make you look at yourself in the mirror.

1280
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 2: Probably not. Maybe my twin brother. I remember my twin

1281
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 2: brother had. It didn't last, but I remember he had

1282
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 2: a word to me when about sixteen, and he goes

1283
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: or fifteen, and he goes, if you don't rain it in,

1284
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: Mom's going to kick you out, you're gonna have nowhere

1285
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 2: to go. You're gonna be a bum, going to be homeless,

1286
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 2: like and he had, and I rained it in for

1287
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 2: a couple of months. It didn't last long, but I

1288
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 2: just remember that did have an effect on me, was

1289
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: my brother saying something to me. And it still does

1290
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 2: to this day. If my brother tells me, like what

1291
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 2: you're doing is bad, I'll normally listen pretty quickly, just

1292
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 2: because I don't want to let him down. I love

1293
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 2: him so much. Yeah, nothing really, I think, you know,

1294
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 2: looking back, I think what would have made a massive

1295
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 2: difference to my life was coming out of the closet earlier.

1296
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: Okay, through that period teenage years, early twenty was just chaos, drugs, just.

1297
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 2: Drugs, alcohol fighting. I'd moved to christ move the shit,

1298
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 2: started working in the meat industry and there was there

1299
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: was this place that I worked at this and this

1300
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 2: is where I really got introduced to like proper crims.

1301
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: There was a prison shift seven to three thirty from

1302
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 2: they coming on the bus from Papodo Maximum Security. They

1303
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 2: come in and these are the guys in the last

1304
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 2: six months of these sentence doing reintegration to society. So

1305
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: they come in. They'd work at the at this portrio

1306
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 2: was at maybe about ten of them, and then they'd

1307
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 2: leave at three things and go back to prison at night,

1308
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 2: and all the money get saved into a bank account

1309
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: and they got released and have it great, great initiative,

1310
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: really good initiative. But the problem with it is there

1311
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: was so much drug smuggling going involved. There was so

1312
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 2: much crime going involved because I had all these people

1313
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 2: leaving the prison coming coming out, and we were just

1314
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 2: putting drugs in their locker. They were taking it back

1315
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 2: with them. There was all sorts of Remember there was

1316
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 2: this poor little Indian guy, this Fiji and Indian fellow.

1317
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 2: He was there, he was in the he was in

1318
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: the skuy and he got released and kept his job

1319
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 2: there and he'd all this protection money from prison and

1320
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 2: he didn't want to smuggle drugs. He said, no, I

1321
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 2: want to want to be good. I don't want to

1322
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 2: make a mistake. You know, I don't want to go

1323
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 2: back to prison, and they're like two fucking bad. Gel

1324
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:07,919
Speaker 2: saw this money and he's like no, no, no, please,

1325
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 2: can we work it out? So anyway I saw in

1326
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 2: the paper was his mum's house had been firebond and

1327
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 2: he disappeared.

1328
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, so heavy dudes, heavy dude, Yeah, playing for Keep.

1329
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: Yeah Yeah, but like I probably arguably probably the most

1330
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: it'd been my in my opinion, probably the scariest gang

1331
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,919
Speaker 2: in New Zealand, probably the most powerful, the most well connected. Yeah,

1332
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 2: I would say it was these guys running the Crew,

1333
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 2: big motorcycle club in New Zealand. A lot of money,

1334
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: a lot of connections, a lot of overseas connections. So yeah,

1335
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 2: that was when I sort of got introduced to that

1336
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 2: when I was.

1337
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: So, is that a life that you were attracted to us?

1338
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, from a young age. I was really attracted to

1339
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 2: the gang life from a really young age, just from

1340
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 2: even when being a kid. I remember a gang called

1341
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: the Tribesmen. They're do an annual run national run every

1342
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: year that always stopped at his house. And I'm seeing

1343
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 2: the patches as a kid, and yeah I do Jacob

1344
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 2: ad on stage two. Actually I go I don't know

1345
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 2: if I just saw a lot of bikers and cops

1346
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:00,959
Speaker 2: and thought it was the villa people, but I always

1347
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 2: wanted to join a gang.

1348
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: As your confusion with your sexual.

1349
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 2: Sexuality, I'm like, this is a lot of guys and

1350
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 2: either that's kind of like my weekend at can sellers.

1351
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, so it wasn't about riding the bikes.

1352
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 2: You had other thoughts. Maybe, I'm like, maybe I was

1353
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 2: just confused. Maybe I didn't want to join the gang life.

1354
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 2: I just like the art, the color coordinated outfits.

1355
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, look we're gonna we're going to take

1356
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: a break now. And you just I was hoping i'd

1357
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: get you out of this dark patch at this point

1358
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: in time, but you're still in the drugs. You've got

1359
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: fantasies about joining the gangs and everything else. You did

1360
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: turn your life around, but we'll talk about that. But then,

1361
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 1: just when you thought you had your life heading in

1362
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: the right direction, something happened and you spiral out of

1363
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: control again. Yeah, worse, worse than ever, took it to

1364
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 1: a new new limit. So I told you this guy's

1365
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 1: life was complex and complicated, and we'll find out more

1366
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: about his life when we get back to our part two.

1367
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: Thanks no worries, Cheers the NAT