1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: This is Life and Crimes. I'm Andrew Ruhle. Today we've 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: got a question and answer because some of our listeners 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: have done us the favor of sending in some questions. 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: I will attempt to answer them, but if I can't, 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 1: I won't. Of course, the questions will be put to 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: me by producer John Burton, who is not just a 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: pretty face. 8 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: First question, Andrew, and thanks to everyone who sent in 9 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: questions comes from Jay and Jay asks. The Pentanil clan 10 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: are an interesting study. I've found out through my reading 11 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 2: recently that they were known to inform on one another 12 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: as they were often in competition within the drug trade. 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 2: Can you tell listeners any particular or interesting stories of 14 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: the family that may not have been covered in the media. 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: Big question. They certainly would inform on each other if 16 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: it suited them, because they were vicious, they were selfish, 17 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: They were drug dealers. They were most of them drug users, 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: depending what drug they fancied. I suspect that all of 19 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: them would have used cocaine and many of them would 20 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: have used emphetamines. I'm not sure about the heroine angle. 21 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: I think they probably reserved that for giving hot shots 22 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: to the poor girls who worked in their brothels and 23 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: massage parlos. But they were vicious, selfish, nasty, brutish people. 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: Many of them were not full brothers and sisters to 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: each other. Most of them had different fathers from each other, 26 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: which is partly reflected by the numbers of names. There 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: was Dennis, Bruce Allen and Peter Allen. Then there was 28 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: the Petan Gills, and then there was a couple of 29 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: other names sprinkled through it. And they were a bit 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: of a licorice all sorts in that regard, but far 31 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: more poisonous. 32 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: Speaking of Melbourne crime families, Charlie asks during the Melbourne 33 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: Gang War, Jason Moran and his family spent time in 34 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: the UK. How did Jason Iran can get a visa 35 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: to get to the UK. 36 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: The question I'd like to ask is why didn't Jason 37 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: Moran see fit to stay in the UK. To answer 38 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: your question, he may not have had any very serious 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: convictions at that point of his life. Jason Moran spent 40 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: a fair bit of time he and his relatives in 41 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: not being convicted. They had very good legal representation. His father, 42 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: who raised him and also his biological father, was the 43 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: late Lewis Moran, who was extremely well connected. Lewis Moran 44 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: had a series of expert criminal lawyers in his corner, 45 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: culminating in our friend of our program, the late Andrew Fraser. 46 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: It's one year since Andrew Fraser died this week. Actually, 47 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: and Andrew Fraser was a highly skilled and aggressive, combative 48 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: criminal lawyer, and he looked after the Morne's interests very well. 49 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: And I think you'll on if we go back that Jason, 50 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: he would have had a lot of form, but he 51 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: didn't have much form on the record. He hadn't been 52 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: convicted of much, so clearly not enough to stop him 53 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: going to the UK. He might have had more trouble 54 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: going to the United States. That's the place that's pretty 55 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: touchy about convictions. What I want to know, as I 56 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: said before, is why didn't he stay there? All I 57 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: had to do was keep him away for longer and 58 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: let things cool off. But no, Jason had to come 59 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: home to the center of the universe as Scott Vail, 60 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: and within a matter of no time, the bad guys 61 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: who wanted him dead made sure he was dead. 62 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: And this is interesting because the episode that we just 63 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: had go to weir about the surfer who grew up 64 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: in a world of crime. Larry Blair, Larry Blair and 65 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: his stepfather coming back to a life of crime having 66 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: got out and gone into the inland. 67 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely the same thing. Baldy Blair couldn't stay away. If 68 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: he'd lived in a cave or an underground house in 69 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: kuuber Pety for a year, two years, I don't know, 70 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: six months, even things might have changed. The bad guys 71 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: might have moved on, you know, wanted to go to 72 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: jail and want to get shot or whatever. But oh no, 73 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: he's got to go back to Sydney and he's got 74 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: to go back to the same pub where all his 75 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: mates drink, because that's the center of the universe. He 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: couldn't see himself even you know, moving from kuober pet 77 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: to Darwin or kuober Peti to Perth doing something like that. No, 78 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: he had to go back to Kujie, to the same 79 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: pub where all those bad guys, his alleged mates who 80 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: weren't really his mates, were drinking. And he just was 81 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: a risk taker and that was the risk he took 82 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: and he ended up getting his toes cut off or 83 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 1: his belly burnt with a blowtorch and then been. 84 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: Killed and now a question from Steve. There was particular 85 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 2: period when being a fruiterer in Melbourne became very dangerous. 86 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 2: Can you expound a little on why this potentially was? 87 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: Well, migration mostly post war, but some of it back 88 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: in the twenties meant that a lot of people came 89 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: to Australia from the Mediterranean countries, but particularly from southern Italy, 90 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: obviously Greeks as well and some Lebanese in one smaller group, 91 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: and a lot of those people, regardless of what they 92 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: did back in their home countries, took on small businesses 93 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: that they could work hard and make a living, and 94 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: being fruit among us was one of the things that 95 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: they were at. They were good at growing stuff. Small 96 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: farmers are peasant farmers, many of them from Collabria and 97 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: Sicily and so on, and therefore being good at growing stuff, 98 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: they then got involved in selling stuff and some of 99 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: them moved on to buying the shops that sold the produce, 100 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: and they pretty well infiltrated the Victoria marketers. It was 101 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: wholesale market in those old days post war, in the 102 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: late forties early fifties, there was a lot of Italian 103 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: people at the markets and that's when we got the 104 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: market murders, which were a very big deal in the 105 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: early sixties. And I can remember a relative of my 106 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: wife who'd fought as a rat to brook in the 107 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: Australian forces at Toabrook in the Middle East, and he 108 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: said that one of their old army mats was having 109 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: problems with the Italians at the Victoria Market, and all 110 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: the old aif Ex soldiers, who were probably in their 111 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: forties by this stage, they went to the vic market 112 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: and they tipped over all the Italian trestle tables full 113 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: of fruit and vegetables and said, there'll be no more 114 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,679 Speaker 1: trouble will there And it wasn't. But what those guys 115 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: did was basically prey on other Italians, the people that 116 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: they could scare, and they knew that the rule of 117 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: omitas complete silence, never speak to the authorities, would protect 118 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: them because they could stand over fellow Italians, and those 119 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: fellow Italians would never ever spill the beans to the authorities. 120 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: And so there is the birth of the local version, 121 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: the Australian version of the Italian mafia. That's how they 122 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: grew up through the fruit markets, and then of course 123 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: they expanded what's better than fruit and vegetables cannabis, which, 124 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: of course when they grew it at Griffith and Shepperdon 125 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: and at Mildura it was known locally as calibrazy corn. 126 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: The Collabrians just to grow it, and that got them 127 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: into drug money, and that got them into drug smuggling, 128 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: drug trafficking, and so it grew. 129 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: And now a question from Pat Pat asks, do you 130 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: think any person will ever be convicted of the cath 131 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: Bergmann and perhaps what the cas Bergman case in a 132 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: might be. 133 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: I remember that case well that talking about Italian mafia figures, 134 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: one of the Victorian Italian mafia businesses was the Chop 135 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: Chop tobacco up in the northeast now the northeast of Victoria, 136 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: back in the bad old days was chocolate block with 137 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: tobacco farms. In fact, Justice Michael Croucher, the judge who 138 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: was in the Wongata case, he came from a tobacco 139 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: farm up at Mertalford. Now Italian farmer's been good at 140 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: growing stuff, started to grow tobacco. They would buy these 141 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: farms in the fifties and sixties and seventies, and naturally 142 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: they would get involved in growing some tobacco on the 143 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: side and selling it as chop chop without attracting excise tax, 144 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: and that would become an arm of organized crime selling 145 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: chop chop. Now those families became well established and interlocking 146 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: with each other, they, like all the other sort of 147 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: Italian mafia families, would never give evidence against each other, 148 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: they wouldn't cooperate with the police, etc. One would imagine 149 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: that some families in the Northeast, in say the King 150 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: Valley and those other valleys up there, would not only 151 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: grow vines, wine grapes, but would grow tobacco. And it 152 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: would appear that Kath Bergmann had married into one of 153 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: these interesting families, one of these diverse and vibrant families. 154 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: And they were so diverse and vibrant that Kath, who 155 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: was a beautiful young girl I remember doing the story. 156 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: She was gorgeous girl of nineteen or so, and she 157 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: got pregnant to them like from down the road. And 158 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: she got married, and she had a couple of kids, 159 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: and eventually I think became a very unhappy wife on 160 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: the farm up in the King Valley or whichever valley 161 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: it was, And one day she split up with her 162 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: husband and moved into a nearby town it was I 163 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: think Wangarata one of those towns, and she vanished one day. 164 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: She vanished. Now it seems clear that she was abducted 165 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: from her home unit in whatever address it was in 166 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: wang or whichever town it was up there and never 167 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: seen again. And it is widely thought that someone close 168 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: to her, perhaps related or you know, an intimate partner 169 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: or former intimate partner or whatever, would be able to 170 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: throw some light on that, if only they could see 171 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: their way clear to help, but so far they haven't. 172 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 1: Varlet Cath She's not coming back is a very sad case. 173 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: A bit of a change of pace. Now a question 174 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: from John Doe, and John asks, if that is his 175 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 2: real name, how many police corruption stories do you hear 176 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 2: about or have to sit on because there's just not 177 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: really much evidence involved, and police corruption is one of 178 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: those areas that is probably more touchy than others in 179 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: crime reporting. 180 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I do think that 181 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: in Australia, Victoria Police, relative to other police forces, I've 182 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: got a pretty good record. That doesn't mean they've got 183 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: a good record, but relative to Sydney, relative to Brisbane, 184 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: relative to Perth, I think the Victoria police better than 185 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: the others historically. In this sense. It has been said 186 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: by wiser people than me that in Sydney you couldn't 187 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: get to the top of the tree unless you were corrupt, 188 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: and probably true in Brisbane where we had so Terrence Lewis, 189 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: you'll recall in Melbourne you would not get past being 190 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: say a senior sergeant or maybe an inspector if you 191 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: were corrupt. It was contained at a particular level. That 192 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: doesn't mean there was no corruption, and it doesn't mean 193 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't pervasive, but it didn't go to the Chief 194 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: Commissioner's office and it didn't go to the Premier's office 195 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: in Victoria. In New South Wales it certainly did. To 196 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: answer you a question more specifically, clearly, there's always been 197 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: some element of some corruption at various levels of the 198 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: police force. Obviously, you know, if you're in a place 199 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: like St Kilda or Footscray in the past, out in 200 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: the West Paran around there where there's nightlife, where there's restaurants, pubs, clubs, drugs, 201 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,239 Speaker 1: drugs assale, those are the areas where they draw. People 202 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: come there from other suburbs and from the country to 203 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: those places. They flock there. They spend money there on 204 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: often illegal pursuits, drugs and brothels, that sort of stuff 205 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: a prostitution and it attracts the clients of the prostitutes 206 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: and the drug dealers, and it attracts prostitutes and drug dealers. 207 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: So you've got this whole goat's head soup of potential corruption. 208 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: And it was said to me earlier today by someone 209 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: quoting a Some Kilda police sergeant who'd worked there a 210 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: long time. He said, nothing happened crime wise in St Kilda, 211 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: nothing happened crime wise without the knowledge or the active 212 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: participation of certain police. That doesn't mean all the police, 213 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: but certain police were in on the giggle. Now that 214 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: wasn't always about money. It didn't mean that was always 215 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: about cash and brown paper bags. They would have some 216 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: pet crooks doing things because the pet crooks give them 217 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: information about other crooks, and so their tame crooks would 218 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: dub in other guys that were more dangerous. Let's say, 219 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: so police would cultivate crook A in order to lock 220 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: up crooked B, C and D. This is a pretty 221 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: untidy looking arrangement, and of course it is a bit 222 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: untidy because it would soon be tempting for police to 223 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: clip the ticket on the way past. If we're going 224 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: to pay informers with the slush fund they had to 225 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: pay informers, surely they would take a bit of that 226 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: fromselves because they're working over time whatever. It becomes very messy. 227 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: You've got police dealing with large amounts of cash, and 228 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: so when they put the arm on a crook who's 229 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: got a whatd of cash that would choke a race horse, 230 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: the crook is going to say, listen, you keep half 231 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: of that and give me the other half and let 232 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: me go. And sometimes the police are going to do 233 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: that because what's the odds, you know, we're only going 234 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: to pick him up next week. Anyway, they even had 235 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: a word for it. We used to find them. We'd 236 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: find them, we'd take their money. Now a lot of 237 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: those guys just didn't regard that as particularly criminal, because 238 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: they'd still catch crooks and lock them up. But they'd 239 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: find a few along the way and take their cash 240 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: and use it as play money. Sometimes they use it 241 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: for holidays, for a bit of a slush fund for 242 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: interstate trips. I reckon a lot of them, probably, you know. 243 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: I used to dress very well and punt on horses. 244 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: I can remember police that used to race a horse 245 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: or two, probably able to pay for training fees in cash. 246 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: You'd think we won't go down that line. 247 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: Lastly, and I should say, we've had a lot of 248 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 2: questions and several people suggesting topics for shows which we 249 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: may look at in the future. But lastly, if I 250 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: can be slightly indulgent and ask a question myself, and 251 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: that is one that is ripped from the headlines. Yes, 252 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: and this headline is that a couple of days ago, 253 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: or probably a few days ago. By the time this 254 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: episode comes out, a local Victorian bloke has come forth 255 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: with a theory or two about. 256 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: The I don't tell me mister Krule, the. 257 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: Identity of mister Krule, and his thesis, if I may 258 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: is he suggests that mister Craule never existed in the 259 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: chilling series of abductions, rapes and murders across Melbourne with 260 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: the work of multiple offenders in the nineteen eighties and 261 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: early nineteen nineties. Now, we've talked about mister Crule a 262 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: fair bit on this show, a lot of it. What's 263 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: your thought about this theory? 264 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: Now, this is the this is the truck driver from Grovedale, 265 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: I think, And there's nothing wrong with Gravedale, and there's 266 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with truck drivers. Without them, where would we 267 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: get our goods from John? But whether he's a good 268 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: arm jess sleuth, I don't know, but I have to 269 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: say that he's one of many people. And I'm talking 270 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: thousands of armchair sluths across the world, not just in Victoria, 271 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: not just Grovedale, not just Bendigo, not just Mildura, but 272 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: of right across the anglosphere. And I have been besieged 273 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: with really interesting and ornate, complex theories about mister Krule 274 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: from people in Ohio and California and all sorts of places. 275 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing about all of them is this, 276 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: if you are keen enough on a particular theory, you 277 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: will always find circumstantial evidence to support it, and you 278 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: gently push to one side circumstantial evidence that doesn't support it. 279 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: And so none of these theories are necessarily crackpot theories. 280 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean they're right. They can't all be right, 281 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: because if you've got one hundred armchair sluths such as 282 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: our mate from Grovedale, if you've got a hundred of 283 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: those guys, You've probably got a about eighty eight different theories. 284 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 1: Now they can't all be right, you know, because one 285 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: guy thinks you did it and one guy thinks I 286 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: did it. The guy in America that got in touch 287 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: with me sent me massive amount of information which was 288 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: very interesting that he gleaned on the Internet, which is frightening, 289 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, this open source that you can find anything. 290 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: And he built a theory which wasn't crazy, but didn't 291 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: have sort of fantasies in it didn't have little green men, 292 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 1: no magic. It was all sort of facts, carefully chosen 293 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: facts to sity theory. And he postulated that a really 294 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: well known Melbourne journalist one I know, well, this is 295 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: a man who's been very well known in Melbourne journalism 296 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: for fifty years. This person, this arms in America, postulated 297 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: that this Melbourne journalist was mister cruel and that he'd 298 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: obtained gun a pistol from his own father. And this 299 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: guy had all this evidence to that effect, and he'd 300 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: followed this journalist's life from suburb to suburb. And even 301 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: when this journalist went to Japan, you know, the crimes 302 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: dropped off here and in Japan there was a similar 303 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: crime in you know, blah blah, whichever prefecture, and it 304 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: was wonderful, and of course it was nonsense. So draw 305 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: your own conclusions. There are a lot of people with 306 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: a lot of theories, and they can't all be right, 307 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: and I suspect that none of them are. 308 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: It's just funny that the sort of the bigger the 309 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: web is the more ways that you can navigate, choose 310 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: your own adventure. 311 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: Choose your own adventure that is perfect, and they do. 312 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: And look, it might be that they're all a little 313 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: bit right. I believe that probably come and chan that 314 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: there's a fair chance she was not a mister cruel victim. 315 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: The evidence against it seems to me to be nearly 316 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: as strong as the evidence for it. Police are divided 317 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: on this, as we've said on this podcast many times, 318 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: please are divided over it. So what would we know. 319 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: So anybody out there that thinks that there's a common 320 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: check offender and another offender or offenders, they may well 321 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: be right. It's a matter of who it is that's 322 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: the tricky bit. 323 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 2: Thank you very much to everyone that has written in 324 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: to us. If you would like to ask a question, 325 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: you can email us at Life and Crimes at News 326 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: dot com dot Au. Life and Crimes at News dot 327 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: com dot you, which we will link in the description 328 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: of this episode, and ask Andrew a question hopefully we 329 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 2: might read it. 330 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: We will and John, thanks for asking those questions. They're 331 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: always diverting. Thank you, Andrew, thanks for listening. Life and 332 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun product action for True 333 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 334 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au 335 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: forward slash Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 336 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: to news Podcasts Sold at news dot com dot Au. 337 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if 338 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: you want further information about this episode, links are in 339 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: the description.