1 00:00:05,790 --> 00:00:09,750 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fair and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. Cryptocurrency 2 00:00:09,750 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: investors are bracing for a major event in coming days, 3 00:00:13,230 --> 00:00:16,379 Speaker 1: the Bitcoin Harvey. This is when the amount of Bitcoin 4 00:00:16,379 --> 00:00:19,650 Speaker 1: that can be mined is limited further and the rewards 5 00:00:19,650 --> 00:00:22,350 Speaker 1: reduced. It's likely to happen sometime this week, though it's 6 00:00:22,350 --> 00:00:26,788 Speaker 1: hard to pinpoint exactly when it occurs. Now, I've got 7 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:29,370 Speaker 1: to say I'm a little confused by this and I 8 00:00:29,370 --> 00:00:31,650 Speaker 1: don't really think I'm alone. Today I wanted to find 9 00:00:31,650 --> 00:00:35,638 Speaker 1: out exactly what the Bitcoin Harvey involves and what the 10 00:00:35,639 --> 00:00:38,940 Speaker 1: impact is on crypto investors, especially considering the recent boom 11 00:00:39,150 --> 00:00:42,870 Speaker 1: in Bitcoin ETFs. Remember, this is general information only and you 12 00:00:42,870 --> 00:00:46,530 Speaker 1: should always seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Jonathan 13 00:00:46,530 --> 00:00:49,830 Speaker 1: Miller is the managing director of Kraken Australia. Kraken is 14 00:00:49,830 --> 00:00:54,389 Speaker 1: one of the world's largest cryptocurrency exchanges. Jonathan, welcome to 15 00:00:54,420 --> 00:00:55,140 Speaker 1: Fear and Greed. 16 00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:56,820 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. Great to be here. 17 00:00:57,660 --> 00:01:00,300 Speaker 1: Jonathan, I don't know how we're going to go here. 18 00:01:00,660 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: It's quite the task explaining this to me. So let's 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,690 Speaker 1: start with the absolute basics. In a nutshell, can you 20 00:01:06,809 --> 00:01:11,100 Speaker 1: define what the blockchain is and what mining is? 21 00:01:11,490 --> 00:01:16,050 Speaker 2: Yes, sure thing. Bitcoin is one of the first blockchains, 22 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,050 Speaker 2: if not the first. Remembering this is an open source 23 00:01:19,050 --> 00:01:23,279 Speaker 2: technology that developers have created and can change over time. 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 2: But the Bitcoin blockchain is a decentralized network for peer- to- 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,030 Speaker 2: peer money. Now, that allows people to send value over 26 00:01:33,030 --> 00:01:36,150 Speaker 2: the internet like they would in email, one person to 27 00:01:36,150 --> 00:01:41,849 Speaker 2: the other without any intermediary. That's a revolutionary concept. And 28 00:01:41,849 --> 00:01:46,859 Speaker 2: it's made possible by a large network of computers all 29 00:01:46,859 --> 00:01:50,430 Speaker 2: crunching the numbers on Bitcoin. These computers aren't in any 30 00:01:50,430 --> 00:01:53,820 Speaker 2: one place. In fact, you and I could buy some 31 00:01:53,820 --> 00:01:57,389 Speaker 2: hardware and mine Bitcoin ourselves. The process of crunching the 32 00:01:57,389 --> 00:02:00,540 Speaker 2: numbers is known as mining, and the reason they call 33 00:02:00,540 --> 00:02:04,289 Speaker 2: it mining is because when you contribute to this network 34 00:02:04,619 --> 00:02:08,220 Speaker 2: by crunching the numbers on people sending Bitcoin from one 35 00:02:08,220 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: person to the next, you get rewarded. And the reward 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,939 Speaker 2: is Bitcoin itself. So there's a limited total number of 37 00:02:14,940 --> 00:02:18,179 Speaker 2: rewards over time, and that's what we talk about when 38 00:02:18,179 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: it comes to halving, is how much of the reward 39 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,699 Speaker 2: will you get from now on. And that reward gets 40 00:02:23,699 --> 00:02:25,169 Speaker 2: less and less as time goes on, which is a 41 00:02:25,169 --> 00:02:26,608 Speaker 2: very interesting dynamic. 42 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:30,210 Speaker 1: Okay, so thus far I'm with you. So this is 43 00:02:30,210 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: good. So essentially I should think of blockchain technology, kind 44 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:39,150 Speaker 1: of like a ledger, a record which is extremely secure 45 00:02:39,150 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: allowing me to transfer to you, for example, Jonathan. And 46 00:02:44,850 --> 00:02:48,180 Speaker 1: the mining aspect of it, the part that you said 47 00:02:48,180 --> 00:02:53,849 Speaker 1: there, so people mine, as in provide their intellect and their 48 00:02:53,849 --> 00:02:58,739 Speaker 1: firepower to the blockchain technology and they get rewarded via 49 00:02:59,070 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: Bitcoin. So there are professional people out there who literally 50 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,329 Speaker 1: make a living out of doing this, out of mining. 51 00:03:03,450 --> 00:03:03,990 Speaker 1: Is that right? 52 00:03:04,530 --> 00:03:07,620 Speaker 2: That's pretty close. The thing is though, the power that's 53 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:12,599 Speaker 2: being provided to securing this ledger is all CPU. So 54 00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:16,649 Speaker 2: this is all computer power that's being deployed. You might've 55 00:03:16,650 --> 00:03:21,270 Speaker 2: seen pictures of big warehouses of computers, spinning fans, that's 56 00:03:21,270 --> 00:03:25,770 Speaker 2: part of this story. The industrialization of the process has 57 00:03:25,770 --> 00:03:29,758 Speaker 2: meant that there's some interesting conflicts potentially with the respect 58 00:03:29,758 --> 00:03:33,030 Speaker 2: to the amount of centralized mining power that might be 59 00:03:33,030 --> 00:03:37,260 Speaker 2: deployed by people with deep pockets. However, it remains true 60 00:03:37,260 --> 00:03:40,650 Speaker 2: that there's no one group of people that can control 61 00:03:40,830 --> 00:03:45,059 Speaker 2: the ledger. It is distributed, it is decentralized, and the 62 00:03:45,059 --> 00:03:48,570 Speaker 2: act of validating the transactions gives you a reward. That 63 00:03:48,570 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: reward is part of a process. It is a transaction 64 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,140 Speaker 2: fee. There's two components to the reward. There's a transaction 65 00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:57,540 Speaker 2: fee for people wanting to send Bitcoin. If I was 66 00:03:57,540 --> 00:04:00,750 Speaker 2: to send you one Bitcoin, lucky boy, I would pay 67 00:04:00,750 --> 00:04:04,020 Speaker 2: a fee. That fee is not very large, it's flat. 68 00:04:04,380 --> 00:04:10,020 Speaker 2: It is in Bitcoin. And the system, the network will release 69 00:04:10,020 --> 00:04:14,610 Speaker 2: those transaction fees to the miners along with new Bitcoin. 70 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,270 Speaker 2: The newly minted Bitcoin is the mining reward, and that's 71 00:04:18,270 --> 00:04:20,580 Speaker 2: what we're talking about when it comes to the halving, 72 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 2: is the reduction in the mining reward. So the transaction 73 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,540 Speaker 2: fees will always be there, but the new Bitcoin created 74 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,609 Speaker 2: will be lowered over time will be less overtime. And 75 00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:34,740 Speaker 2: this is a key feature that's built into the code. 76 00:04:35,250 --> 00:04:38,460 Speaker 2: It underpins the value in our view of the proposition 77 00:04:38,460 --> 00:04:41,759 Speaker 2: for an asset that has a fixed maximum supply. So 78 00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:43,050 Speaker 2: it's a deflationary asset. 79 00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:47,998 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a scarce resource and becoming scarcer because 80 00:04:48,059 --> 00:04:50,219 Speaker 1: it will expand in as much as the amount of 81 00:04:50,220 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: Bitcoin will expand. But over time, the rate of expansion 82 00:04:55,170 --> 00:04:58,650 Speaker 1: drops, which means it becomes a more scarce value the 83 00:04:58,650 --> 00:05:00,570 Speaker 1: more people use it. Am I right in that? 84 00:05:01,140 --> 00:05:04,589 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think scarcity is an important consideration here. There is a 85 00:05:04,589 --> 00:05:08,970 Speaker 2: maximum total number of Bitcoin that will be available to 86 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,570 Speaker 2: everyone. And that maximum we are approaching, we are not 87 00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:16,020 Speaker 2: quite there yet. So there's still new Bitcoin being minted 88 00:05:16,260 --> 00:05:20,369 Speaker 2: and it's being claimed by those miners. We believe that 89 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,419 Speaker 2: we're close to 94% of all Bitcoins that have been 90 00:05:24,690 --> 00:05:29,430 Speaker 2: created, so to speak, by the process of mining. However, 91 00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:33,270 Speaker 2: transaction volumes and the movement of the Bitcoin from one 92 00:05:33,270 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: person to the other incurs fees. So there will always 93 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,139 Speaker 2: be transaction fees, but the total number of Bitcoin available 94 00:05:40,139 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: in the system will be limited. Important to note that 95 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,660 Speaker 2: you can send fractions of Bitcoin to one another, the 96 00:05:45,660 --> 00:05:50,099 Speaker 2: smallest fraction being known as a Satoshi. So you don't 97 00:05:50,099 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: need to send one Bitcoin, that'd be a large transfer, 98 00:05:53,190 --> 00:05:57,118 Speaker 2: a large transaction today. I could send part thereof, but 99 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,609 Speaker 2: the critical point here is that this is an asset 100 00:05:59,609 --> 00:06:02,549 Speaker 2: that is limited in supply and so absolutely is scarce. In 101 00:06:02,550 --> 00:06:05,940 Speaker 2: fact, we think it's the soundest money. It's the soundest 102 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:09,210 Speaker 2: money that exists today and that's why people get really 103 00:06:09,210 --> 00:06:14,579 Speaker 2: interested in it as far as the macroeconomic story goes. But also 104 00:06:14,849 --> 00:06:18,239 Speaker 2: just a pure fascination with a technology that can be 105 00:06:18,270 --> 00:06:20,310 Speaker 2: operated this way and can create this kind of value. 106 00:06:21,029 --> 00:06:22,618 Speaker 1: Stay with me, Jonathan, and we'll be back in a 107 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:34,079 Speaker 1: minute. I'm speaking to Jonathan Miller, managing director of Kraken 108 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,700 Speaker 1: Australia. The fact that it's actually in our example, a 109 00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:43,620 Speaker 1: transaction between you and I, Jonathan without an intermediary, then 110 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:45,750 Speaker 1: that sits at the heart of the... That's kind of 111 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:50,070 Speaker 1: the allure or the part of the value proposition in 112 00:06:50,070 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: Bitcoin, is that one- on- one transaction. And with 94% 113 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,299 Speaker 1: of Bitcoin in its entirety have already been produced, you 114 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 1: put those together, suddenly it does become a more investible 115 00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:06,060 Speaker 1: asset, I think. 116 00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:09,450 Speaker 2: I think people look at the blockchain network, that is 117 00:07:09,450 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: Bitcoin, and they get inspired by that in different ways. 118 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,140 Speaker 2: And one of those is that they realize that this 119 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:20,309 Speaker 2: is an alternative network for sending value over the internet 120 00:07:20,309 --> 00:07:23,849 Speaker 2: P2P. Now, that is revolutionary. That is very novel. We 121 00:07:23,849 --> 00:07:28,260 Speaker 2: believe that has inherent value. There's also another thing that 122 00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:30,689 Speaker 2: people get excited by, which is the prospect of using 123 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:33,990 Speaker 2: that technology, blockchain technology for other things. And so that's 124 00:07:33,990 --> 00:07:36,420 Speaker 2: where we see a whole long tale of additional other 125 00:07:36,630 --> 00:07:40,860 Speaker 2: cryptocurrency networks bring up because, and I think this is 126 00:07:40,860 --> 00:07:43,710 Speaker 2: testament to the qualities of the Bitcoin network and what it 127 00:07:43,710 --> 00:07:47,010 Speaker 2: has proved, which is that alternative networks for the movement 128 00:07:47,010 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: of value and more, the movement of information or the 129 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:57,059 Speaker 2: securing of information globally using decentralized distributed networks is of 130 00:07:57,059 --> 00:08:01,349 Speaker 2: significant value. And so people look to Bitcoin as the 131 00:08:01,349 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: leading light, as an investible asset perhaps, but also as a 132 00:08:05,820 --> 00:08:08,430 Speaker 2: proof point in what is a new technology. 133 00:08:09,090 --> 00:08:12,870 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. I can say this in all honesty, the 134 00:08:12,870 --> 00:08:15,540 Speaker 1: light is slowly turning on here in terms of the 135 00:08:15,719 --> 00:08:19,379 Speaker 1: inherent value of Bitcoin, which is what I've always struggled 136 00:08:19,380 --> 00:08:23,279 Speaker 1: with. But if there's a demand for Bitcoin, there's a scarcity of 137 00:08:23,279 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: it because of the halving over time. And if there's a use 138 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,630 Speaker 1: case for it, then it has an inherent value which 139 00:08:30,630 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: is what you just said. With the halving, is this 140 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: kind of the genius of when Bitcoin was set up 141 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:41,429 Speaker 1: to actually halve it? The pace of growth reducing over 142 00:08:41,429 --> 00:08:45,210 Speaker 1: time, that seems to be quite a genius idea of 143 00:08:45,210 --> 00:08:47,370 Speaker 1: 20 years ago or whenever it was released. 144 00:08:47,850 --> 00:08:53,159 Speaker 2: Feels like 20 years ago, it was 2009 or 2008. And so 145 00:08:53,820 --> 00:08:55,469 Speaker 2: we are kind of approaching that mark, which will be 146 00:08:55,469 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 2: a milestone. I fully agree with that sentiment, which is 147 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: that the pre- design here, the thinking that went into 148 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,848 Speaker 2: the design of this algorithm, which is what? It's a 149 00:09:05,850 --> 00:09:08,699 Speaker 2: code. It's a code base that's maintained open source, which 150 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:13,139 Speaker 2: is also another really important point, was very thoughtful. And 151 00:09:13,139 --> 00:09:16,799 Speaker 2: it was also in response to a very inflationary period of 152 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:20,670 Speaker 2: time in 2008. And so I think Bitcoin is sound 153 00:09:20,670 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: money as digital scarcity, which is something that isn't synonymous 154 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,309 Speaker 2: necessarily with computer technology. I think the computer invented the 155 00:09:29,309 --> 00:09:31,590 Speaker 2: copy and paste, so to speak. Well, at least an 156 00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:33,750 Speaker 2: efficient copy and paste. We could cut up with scissors 157 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:39,030 Speaker 2: with typewriters. But the replicability of data in computers, that's 158 00:09:39,030 --> 00:09:41,339 Speaker 2: inherent to the nature of a computer system. Bitcoin and a 159 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:47,250 Speaker 2: blockchain essentially turns that on its head and creates digital 160 00:09:47,250 --> 00:09:52,410 Speaker 2: scarcity, and that's a revolution. That's what got people very 161 00:09:52,410 --> 00:09:55,290 Speaker 2: excited in the beginning because people had tried digital money 162 00:09:55,290 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: before, and digital money never worked because it relied on 163 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: a central clearinghouse. Otherwise, you could copy and paste it, 164 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 2: you can forge it. So Bitcoin solves that problem. It solves 165 00:10:06,570 --> 00:10:09,150 Speaker 2: what's known as the double spend problem where you would 166 00:10:09,150 --> 00:10:13,228 Speaker 2: spend your money twice, not ideal for money. And it 167 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:17,310 Speaker 2: certainly does embody what we would like to call deflationary asset. 168 00:10:17,790 --> 00:10:19,949 Speaker 1: Okay. So the halving occurs in the next couple of 169 00:10:19,950 --> 00:10:21,780 Speaker 1: days. Why is it in the next couple of days 170 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:27,509 Speaker 1: and based on previous halving events, what happens to the 171 00:10:27,509 --> 00:10:28,468 Speaker 1: value of Bitcoin? 172 00:10:28,980 --> 00:10:31,860 Speaker 2: Yeah, these things are quite often linked because the halving 173 00:10:31,860 --> 00:10:35,189 Speaker 2: event is newsworthy because it's so interesting. It's so novel 174 00:10:35,850 --> 00:10:39,450 Speaker 2: that this is planned in algorithmically. The reason it happens, 175 00:10:39,450 --> 00:10:43,770 Speaker 2: to your question, on a certain date is because the 176 00:10:43,830 --> 00:10:47,848 Speaker 2: time elapsed between the last halving and now is a 177 00:10:47,850 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: function of the code itself. So the word blockchain speaks 178 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,830 Speaker 2: to the way that the information is grouped. The ledger, 179 00:10:55,830 --> 00:10:58,860 Speaker 2: as we discussed earlier, of transactions is grouped into blocks 180 00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:03,659 Speaker 2: and then chained together using cryptography. So the ledger today 181 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: is linked to the ledger yesterday, and this happens on 182 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,510 Speaker 2: a shorter timescale. Every nine or 10 minutes or so, 183 00:11:09,510 --> 00:11:13,230 Speaker 2: the ledger is updated. There's a number of blocks that 184 00:11:13,230 --> 00:11:17,069 Speaker 2: we have to wait until the next reduction in reward 185 00:11:17,130 --> 00:11:20,009 Speaker 2: occurs. We're almost at that point, we estimate that to 186 00:11:20,009 --> 00:11:21,990 Speaker 2: be in the next couple of days in the next week. 187 00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:24,809 Speaker 2: But really it depends on how quickly or slowly those 188 00:11:24,809 --> 00:11:27,900 Speaker 2: transactions are confirmed and the blocks are created and linked 189 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:32,010 Speaker 2: together. So it's algorithmic and we watch and wait. 190 00:11:32,490 --> 00:11:34,828 Speaker 1: Can I just ask, is there a disincentive though for 191 00:11:34,830 --> 00:11:38,669 Speaker 1: a miner out there who's been pushing to earn X 192 00:11:38,910 --> 00:11:42,420 Speaker 1: Bitcoin, that miner is now going to earn X on 193 00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:45,690 Speaker 1: two, as in half a Bitcoin. So is there a 194 00:11:45,690 --> 00:11:47,670 Speaker 1: disincentive for people to be doing it? 195 00:11:49,020 --> 00:11:51,899 Speaker 2: There's all sorts of incentives at play in the mining 196 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:56,429 Speaker 2: game crypto, that includes the mining reward but also transaction 197 00:11:56,429 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 2: rewards. So the reward that a miner gets for staying 198 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,620 Speaker 2: in the game is a function of multiple inputs. Yes, 199 00:12:04,620 --> 00:12:07,860 Speaker 2: it changes the incentive dynamics, but it doesn't remove the 200 00:12:07,860 --> 00:12:08,700 Speaker 2: incentive altogether. 201 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,300 Speaker 1: Okay. So what happens to the value of Bitcoin when 202 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:16,409 Speaker 1: this does happen based on previous examples? The fact that 203 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:19,650 Speaker 1: the reward for mining, is that necessarily going to actually 204 00:12:19,650 --> 00:12:21,300 Speaker 1: change the value of Bitcoin or not? 205 00:12:22,110 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: I think historically, the conversation around halving translates somehow into 206 00:12:28,469 --> 00:12:33,059 Speaker 2: price movement, volatility generally speaking. This is a volatile asset 207 00:12:33,059 --> 00:12:36,119 Speaker 2: because it's so new. It's still new despite being 2008 208 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,750 Speaker 2: conceived. However, I think that the progress being made towards 209 00:12:42,750 --> 00:12:45,180 Speaker 2: adoption is probably the more important thing to look at, 210 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,420 Speaker 2: because everyone who already understands Bitcoin knows that the reward 211 00:12:48,420 --> 00:12:52,380 Speaker 2: is reducing. But what we note is that there's currently 212 00:12:52,410 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: probably only 10% of the population globally that has adopted 213 00:12:56,940 --> 00:13:00,929 Speaker 2: Bitcoin. So what we see is when Bitcoin and people 214 00:13:00,929 --> 00:13:03,690 Speaker 2: learn about it, learn about it through conversations like this, 215 00:13:03,929 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: they realize the potential inherent value of it or they 216 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,858 Speaker 2: see value in the technology and the asset itself. And 217 00:13:10,859 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: so price does sometimes follow and we see kicks around 218 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 2: this time of the halving. However, I think that the 219 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: adoption metric is the one that we really should be 220 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,590 Speaker 2: looking at. And that really is the true driver, given 221 00:13:22,590 --> 00:13:26,039 Speaker 2: that scarcity is the kind of underlying feature of Bitcoin. 222 00:13:26,580 --> 00:13:29,549 Speaker 1: Jonathan, you have done the impossible. You've actually helped me 223 00:13:29,549 --> 00:13:31,980 Speaker 1: understand Bitcoin and I have been a skeptic for a long 224 00:13:31,980 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: time, a former central banker myself. I've never really believed 225 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,630 Speaker 1: it, and I'm going to have to totally rethink my 226 00:13:39,630 --> 00:13:41,190 Speaker 1: view on Bitcoin. Well done. 227 00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 2: You're most welcome. I'm pleased to hear it. 228 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,718 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for talking to Fear and Greed, Jonathan. 229 00:13:45,990 --> 00:13:47,338 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on the show. It's been great. 230 00:13:47,549 --> 00:13:50,580 Speaker 1: That was Jonathan Miller, managing director of Kraken Australia. This 231 00:13:50,580 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Remember, this is 232 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,978 Speaker 1: general information only and you should seek professional advice before 233 00:13:55,980 --> 00:13:58,889 Speaker 1: making investment decisions. Join us every morning for the full 234 00:13:58,889 --> 00:14:01,978 Speaker 1: episode of Fear and Greed daily business news for people 235 00:14:01,980 --> 00:14:04,979 Speaker 1: who make their own decisions. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.