1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment the show. 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Mick Hall, Bloody Mick Hall. Where the fuck has he been? 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: I haven't seen him for a while. That's not true. 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: I saw him the other day, but I haven't seen 5 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: him here at the You Project typ Central for quite 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: a while. Now. I would guess in our career of 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: almost or our life journey as a podcast of almost 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred episodes, you've been on maybe seven eight? What 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: do you think? 10 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: I think somewhere between eight and ten, Craig. 11 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: You've been on a while, so that's about well, let's 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: say it's nine. That's once every two hundred episodes. So 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: it's not like webisode one. We're not flogging you. No, 14 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: that was Nathan Burke when I was episode two. There 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: you go, There you go. You fucking you were a 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: pioneer with the U Project. You were a podcasting Do 17 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: you remember back in the day, Versie II, mik go 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: remember back in the day. I could be wrong, but 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure we started twenty eighteen. I mean, that's seven, 20 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: might have even been seven, and I should fucking know. 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: I could just look it up, but fuck it. But 22 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: even then, I mean podcasts weren't new, but they were. 23 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: They'd been around for a while and probably half of 24 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: the population had heard them. But I mean, every man 25 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: in these dogs got a podcast, now, haven't they? 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 2: I reckon? But I remember when you first started and 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: you were talking to me about it. I thought, Jean, 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: that's a great idea. I'd never heard of it, and 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: I've never listened to a podcast, and you asked me 30 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: to come and be a guest on yours, and I 31 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: had no idea what I was in for, but it was. 32 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's amazing come a long way. 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: Well it's yeah, I mean peaks and trust dude. But 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, it's funny how when you when you start 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: something that you don't really know what you're doing, but 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: you're passionate. Right, It's like, maybe even we'll talk about 37 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: you and boxing, right, because that's been a journey for 38 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: you and probably about the same length of journey as 39 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: that you project. But like, obviously i'd come from doing 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: quite a bit of radio, and you and I did 41 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: some radio together, and I've done a bit of Telly, 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: and I've been in front of a lot of people, 43 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: but like a live audiences and all that stuff. But 44 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: you know, when you think, oh, podcasts are not radio 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: because it doesn't matter what we talk about. There's no producer, 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: there's no editing per se, there's no station idea, there's 47 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: no time checks, there's no weather updates, there's no fucking 48 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: traffic reports. It's not like people don't realize. I mean 49 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: probably where you and I worked on sen it's a 50 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: bit more there's a bit more freedom than a lot 51 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: of radio because it's all talk music. But even with that, 52 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: you know, you come out of the news and it's 53 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: six minutes past, and you've got to go at six 54 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: minutes past, and you know you've got about fourteen minutes 55 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: to talk, and then you've got to throw to an 56 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: ad and then then you've got to come out of that. 57 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: And so there's all of these constraints and kind of 58 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: rules and REGs around. But like you and I literally 59 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: could go all right, as we're recording this, it's two 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: five on a Saturday. We could wrap it up at 61 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: two thirty, or we could talk till six, like it 62 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: doesn't you know. 63 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: What I mean exactly? Yeah, I love it. I love it. 64 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: That's the beauty of it. We can flow it on. 65 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: Do you know what I think is a parallel between 66 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: you and me, Like we had quite different upbringings, but 67 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: in some ways, and I mean this with the most respect, 68 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: neither you and I were inherently geniuses or fucking super 69 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: gifted athletes or I mean, you're very smart in your 70 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: own way. I truly think that. I mean you built, 71 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: you built multiple businesses, you made a bit of dough, 72 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: You've you've you've just figured shit out, right, You've got 73 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: you've got your own unique kind of intelligence, which you've 74 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: made work very well for you. Right. But you know, 75 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: I'm a bit older than you, but not too much 76 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: older than you, and we were both kind of kids 77 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: that didn't really totally fit in. Like I was never 78 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: one of the popular kids. I know you always felt 79 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: like a bit left out. There's probably a few similarities, right. 80 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: There are heaps of similarities there, you know. And one 81 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 2: of the things I love about just to stay on 82 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: the podcast then for a second. One of the things 83 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: I love about the podcasting is that there's what we've 84 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: come into this today with you with no structure at all, 85 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: And I love that because this could go anywhere, and 86 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: it's a bit edgy, it's a bit we've got to 87 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: be creative but natural, and I love that and I've 88 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: found that to be the way with business that works 89 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: for me and also with sporting endeavors I need. I 90 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: haven't always had a definite structured plan. I've known where 91 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: I've wanted to head, and I've had to invent the 92 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: way as I go, and I love it when it 93 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 2: works like that for me. That just works with my 94 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: creative personality, with the way that I like to move 95 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: and groove, and very much so I see that in 96 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 2: you too, create. 97 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: Do you know there's a real yeah, mate, there's a 98 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: real there's a real kind of important idea around intelligence, 99 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: and that is that I'm probably putting you and me 100 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: I'm better still here to make that. 101 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 2: Well. 102 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: What I mean is, I mean, we know, we know 103 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: what traditional intelligence is IQ. You know, like you sit 104 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: and you do the test and you get a score. 105 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: But then there's something to be said for real life 106 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: problem solving, adaptability, figuring shit out, working through the fucking 107 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: nightmares and the bullshit and being able to come out 108 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: the other side, you know. And then and it's not 109 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: to say one is better than the other or that 110 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: is that's the winner over there, and this is the 111 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: poor cousin. But I went to school with lots of 112 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: people that when I was at school, I looked at 113 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: them and I went, that motherfucker is so smart, Like 114 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: he just he studies for three minutes and gets one hundred. 115 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: I start for three hours and scrape through right on 116 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: the same test or five hours. Or when I first 117 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: went to Monash to start a peach, I felt like 118 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: a fucking wombat sitting in a cubicle. I'm like, oh 119 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: my god, how dumb am I? Because I'm around all 120 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: these genuinely academically and intellectually very bright people, and they 121 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: are right. But also like some of those people, you 122 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: throw them a ball and it hits them in the face, 123 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, or you hand them a crying baby and 124 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: they haven't melted out. Or you ask them to do 125 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: a presentation without any slides or any graphs or any charts, 126 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: and they they're fucked. They don't know what to do. 127 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: And it's not to say better, worse, good or bad. 128 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah, I think intelligence is somewhat context 129 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: and situation dependent, you know. 130 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree, And I think that for me, 131 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: intelligence is about well, for me, it's been about understanding 132 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: myself because if I know, if I'm trying to be 133 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: somebody I'm not, and I have done that many, many 134 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: times and a lot throughout my journey, I've tried to 135 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: be somebody that I'm not and I can't do it. 136 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: I've tried to fit into somebody else's mold and live 137 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: in a particular way, and it just doesn't work me. 138 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: So I've had to find, for want of a bit 139 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: of a term, what works for me. You know, that 140 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: I can get through life kind of in my terminology legally, So. 141 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: That wasn't always the case. 142 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: No, it wasn't always the case. You know, I've needed 143 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: to find a way that I can be me that 144 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: I can you know, survive, not to survive, but thrive 145 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: and to be able to maneuver enjoy my life and 146 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: to live in a way that fits with my personality. 147 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: And also, you know, it helps that helps me to 148 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: live in a way that fits with my way of learning, 149 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 2: my way of enjoying and experiencing and all that sort 150 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 2: of stuff. And it's taken a long time for me 151 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: to be able to come to a point in my 152 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: life where I think that you know, I'm at about 153 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: that point now where I'm largely able to do that. 154 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: Of course I'm not Saint Michael, so yeah, the on 155 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: the beam one hundred percent of the time. But I'm 156 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: you know, I largely I found a way that works 157 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: for me, where I can develop and become the best 158 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 2: version of myself in a way that fits me, and 159 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: it works. Well. 160 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: I love them, and I think that's well, that in 161 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: itself is a kind of intelligence. You know. It's like, 162 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: I've spoken many times about this, and some people throw 163 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: the academic system under the bus and teachers under the bus. 164 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: I actually think teachers, and I'm not just saying this 165 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: because I've got friends who are teachers, I think, considering 166 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: what they have to work with, teachers are fucking brilliant 167 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: because you know, the system is the system. You can't 168 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: make it up. Like you know, if you're a teacher, 169 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: you work in the Victorian system, and there are certain 170 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: boxes that need to be ticked and you need to 171 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: work within certain boundaries. And that's that's all good. But 172 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: think about this, I'd be by the way, I'd be 173 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: a terrible teacher. People people have always said me, oh, 174 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: you'd make a great teacher. I'm like, no, I'm too 175 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: fucking impatient. And I hate playing in someone else's sandbox. 176 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: It's like, I just want to make up my own 177 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: fucking rules, right, I'd be terrible. But think about what 178 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: a normal classroom teacher has in twenty twenty five. Is like, 179 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: all right, Michael, well you're the teacher. Here's your thirty 180 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:28,119 Speaker 1: students with thirty personalities, thirty different backgrounds, thirty different learning styles, 181 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 1: and you're going to teach them essentially to this syllabus, 182 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: which is kind of teaching them all the same shit 183 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: on the same day in the same room. 184 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 2: You know. 185 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: It's like, that's hard because what a particular kind of 186 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: teaching or a kind of lesson or a kind of 187 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: communication will work optimally or close to optimally for some kids, 188 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: but it will be fucking terrible for others. But nonetheless, 189 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: that's the practical reality because we don't have thirty Craigs 190 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: in the room or thirty Michaels in the room. We 191 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: have a myriad of different people, you know, So I 192 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: think back to your point of learning. How you know, 193 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: I think outside of school. So let's set school aside 194 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: for a moment. And this is coming from someone who's 195 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: spent way too long at UNI, right, But I actually 196 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: think the best learning and the most valuable learning happens 197 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: not at school. We need school, for sure, we need it, 198 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: but the real learning and the real growth for a 199 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 1: lot of us I should say not everyone, of course, 200 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: because academics it's different. And for a lot of people 201 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: the best years of their life for school. But I 202 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: think generally speaking, for many of us anyway, the real 203 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: life lessons and the relationship lessons and the how do 204 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: I adapt and be better? And how do I deal 205 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: with bullshit and discomfort and how do I solve problems 206 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: in real time? I mean, that's stuff that you have 207 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: to learn just in the moment. It's like it's like 208 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: if I do a workshop on resilience and one hundred 209 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: people rock up online, that doesn't make them resilient. That 210 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: just means they've heard some theory about What makes them 211 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: resilient is when they get off the call and then 212 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: they step out into life and they start dealing with 213 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: shit and they apply some of the principles perhaps we 214 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: spoke about. Then they start to get some results. They 215 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: fall down, they get up, They do that one hundred times, 216 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: Bibody Bobby Boo. A year later, they're more resilient because 217 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: they've done the fucking work right. 218 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent, absolutely, one hundred percent. For me, 219 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: I found I found school for me, just for me personally. 220 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 2: I found it completely useless. I'm really sort of It 221 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 2: was very little that I took out of school. But 222 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: for me, life has been the best teacher. But you know, 223 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 2: I went to a different type of school and it 224 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: wasn't the kind of school didn't want many people to 225 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 2: go to. Yeah, and you know, my life was in addiction. 226 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 2: I found that to be you know, the biggest build 227 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 2: of resilience if you can make it through addiction and 228 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: make it through anything, but the way you know, to 229 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 2: to live a life where you've had just I guess 230 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 2: you know, sort of loss of hope after loss of hope, 231 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: after loss of hope, but you still find a way 232 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: to keep putting one foot in front of the other, 233 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: keep trying to claw your way out, and then finally 234 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: you get your way out, which I did. That was 235 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: the best, you know, that was the best sort of 236 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 2: learning for me. And it didn't stick straight away though. 237 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 2: Like I've I've been in recovery you know, from addiction. 238 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: So if I stay in recovery for another week, Craig, 239 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 2: I've been twenty four years clean and sober, and that 240 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: just thanks mate, That just blows my mind. Right, So 241 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 2: it completely blows my mind. But the learnings from what 242 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: I went through, even in my past as a as 243 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: a person who was addicted, in terrible trouble financially, you know, 244 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: in prison, you know, all that sort of stuff. You know, 245 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: the lessons from all of that are still being realized 246 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: and and and appreciated and discovered now, you know, twenty 247 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: four years down the track, I'm still discovering more and 248 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: more and more and that and and I'm able to 249 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: use some of the traits that I thought I was 250 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: a waste of space back then, and I wasn't. But 251 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: but some of those, you know, some of that character 252 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: that was locked inside of me to help get me 253 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: through those desperate times in my life, have now become 254 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: beautiful assets that I can draw on now and and 255 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: and they matter, you know, they matter a lot because 256 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: it helps me, I guess, navigate life and be true 257 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: to myself. Now. It's when i'm it's when i'm ignoring 258 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: that stuff that I move off you know, I move 259 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: off my being, off my center, and I start trying 260 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: to be something else or someone else, and nothing works 261 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: well when I do that, I just need to try 262 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: and be me. And that's all good to say to someone, Hey, 263 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: just be yourself, but what does that actually mean? Well, 264 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: you need to know who you are first before you 265 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: can be yourself. And that's and I don't know another 266 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: way of discovering that, to be honest, just for me personally, 267 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: I don't know another way of discovering that unless I'm 268 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: going through my own troubles and I discover who I am. 269 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: And you know, boxing for instance, you know, if people 270 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 2: don't if people listening don't know, I'm a boxer and 271 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: I compete. And it's been quite a journey of that 272 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: very thing, discovering who I am. But it's not until 273 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: I've been in difficult circumstances in the boxing ring and 274 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: put under enormous pressure where yeah, I am in danger, 275 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: I could get hurt that I've been able to discover 276 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: who I am. I am, who am I really am? 277 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 2: I like boxing reveals who you are, you know what? 278 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: The reveals parts of my character? Am I going to 279 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: you know, throw the dummy out of the cop? Am 280 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: I going to crack the ships? Am I going to 281 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: lose my ship. Am I going to stay controlled emotionally? 282 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: Am I going to withdraw? Or am I going to 283 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: you know? Am I going to be able to act 284 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: and strategize and work my way through a problem. So 285 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: so this sort of stuff, you know, it's just it's greeting. 286 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: I love this about the boxing. I love this about life, 287 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 2: and I love this about my past that I'm able 288 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: to discover who I am and have it revealed to 289 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: me and then I can work on it. And sometimes 290 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: what I see about me I don't like, I'm not 291 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: happy with. But that's okay too because when I see that, 292 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 2: I can do something about it. 293 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent, mate. I mean, if you never 294 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: see anything about you that you don't like, you're a 295 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: complete fucking narcissist. 296 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 2: That's a problem, you know, Like I think. 297 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: And for those who don't have not met in Inverted 298 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: Commas Mick before. He has a very interesting background. A 299 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: part of that involved time in prison. I should say 300 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: times in prison, But like I reckon, if you can 301 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: come out, I don't know, right, but I know you 302 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: and I know and I've spoken in prisons, but I 303 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: don't understand prison of course, anything the way that you 304 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: would and do. But it seems to me that if 305 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: you can go into prison, survive for years in prison, 306 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: and come out and you're not completely fucked up, that's 307 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: my asterisk. But if you can come out somewhat intact 308 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: and then genuinely go, not pretend, genuinely go, I actually 309 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: want to live a good life and do good things, 310 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: and I actually I don't want to be a crook anymore. 311 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: I don't want a criminal behavior anymore. I want to 312 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: change my thinking, habits, lifestyle reality. I think that if 313 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: you can get through prison and deal with the adversity 314 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: and the discomfort and the uncertainty and the pain and 315 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: the bullshit, that must be like a daily fucking thing 316 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: hanging over your head for years, then stepping outside as 317 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: long as you can self regulate and not use and 318 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: not pick up and not drink. I mean, it definitely 319 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't be easier, but it must be fucking easier than prison. 320 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 2: It definitely is. It definitely is easier than prison. There 321 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: there's no doubt about that. It's interesting though, you know, 322 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 2: because like we sort of talk about prison and we say, 323 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 2: you know, if you can get through that, you can 324 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 2: get through anything. But it's not just the prison. That's 325 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 2: what led up to prison, that's the whole life that 326 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: was before that that took a person there. Yes, prison's hard, Yes, 327 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: it's it's shit, you know, and it's it's a real 328 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: problem if you start to like prison, because then you're 329 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: really cooked. 330 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: Right, But how many people start to like prison? I mean, 331 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: I know there's no but I'd never thought of that 332 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: till you said that, But I guess some people must be. 333 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: So what's the word conditioned or institutionalized where there may 334 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: be even more comfortable in there than out of there. 335 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. That happens quite often. And I mean, 336 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: you know, let's face it, you go to prison, you've 337 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: got a roof over your head, you've got three meals 338 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 2: a day, and you've got people you know, so you know, 339 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: so it can become very very comfortable, and people obviously 340 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: become you know, it's shit madness as far as I'm 341 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: concerned in prison, But people become very very comfortable in that. 342 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: And look, I can you know, I didn't become comfortable 343 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: in prison like that, but I did become comfortable in institutions. 344 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: So I did a lot of rehabs. I went to 345 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 2: over thirty rehabs and detops as. By the time I 346 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: was twenty five, I was in I'd been hospitalized a 347 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 2: few times. I'd also done some psychiatric admissions. And it's crazy, 348 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 2: you know. You know sometimes I can walk into it, 349 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 2: even to a hospital now to go and visit someone, 350 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 2: and there's some little stick part inside and me, he goes, oh, 351 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: I remember this, This is comfortable being in here. Wow, 352 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: there's a sick little part that wouldn't mind doing a 353 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: thing really yeah, great. 354 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: Wow, what's the attract or what's the Yeah, what's the 355 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: subconscious attraction to doing a couple of weeks in hospital? 356 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 2: It's just just an escape, you know, like it's sort 357 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: of it's the ultimate escape. There's no there's no requirement 358 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: for any responsibility whatsoever. And as an addict, as all 359 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: addicts are, we're escape artists. I want to take responsibility 360 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 2: for anything, anything at all, so and we want to 361 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: hit the escape button, whether that's through drinking, using drugs, hospitalization, legitimate, 362 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 2: legitimately pull out of life with no consequences. That's the 363 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 2: ultimate for an addict, you know. 364 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: And that's so interesting. I just wrote that down. Addicts 365 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: are escape artists. I've known you. For a long time, 366 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: I've never heard that, and I bet a bunch of 367 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: our listeners went, oh, that's good. I like that. 368 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, what what? 369 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: Okay? This is something I've never asked you. But obviously, 370 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: addictions bad, destructive, we know all of that. But for you, 371 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: what good or what? What's some thing positive that came 372 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: out of addiction? Obviously the addiction itself is bad? But 373 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: is there anything good that came out of it for you? 374 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 2: I see that everything good came out of it. For me. 375 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: I mean I don't see yes. Of course, you know. 376 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 2: What happened in my life was tragic and it was terrible, 377 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: and I did really bad things, and I you know, 378 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: and I've got very very hurt and lots of people 379 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: were hurt. Of course, you know, I'm not I'd love 380 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: to be able to change that, and I can't change it. 381 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 2: So let's just put that out there. But that you know, 382 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 2: I went through what I went through, and it's made 383 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 2: me who I am today. How could I hate that? 384 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: I don't hate that. But it's only because I've been 385 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: able to turn it around, you know, Like, the only 386 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 2: reason I can say that is because I have turned 387 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: my life around. I'm not that person anymore. It's helped 388 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 2: me develop into the person that I'm meant to be, 389 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 2: which is the person that doesn't do that shit anymore. 390 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: I don't hurt people like that anymore. I don't hurt me. 391 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. 392 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: It's helped me. Ah, It's given me something to bring 393 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: to the table in that it helps me help other people. 394 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 2: My experiences that I went through are valuable experiences because 395 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: now when I come across someone that's going through anything 396 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 2: remotely similar to what I've been through, guess what, I've 397 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 2: got the wisdom and the ability to help that person 398 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 2: because not only have I been through what they've been through, 399 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: but I've made it out and I've changed. 400 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: And sorry, sorry, gone, no, just I was just going to. 401 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: Say, and I can help them navigate their way through it. 402 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I love the way that you approach 403 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: because I've heard you speak a lot about this, and 404 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: we did a little bit of work together for a 405 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: while in this space. Obviously you're the guru. I'm not, 406 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: but I love the way that you like your approach 407 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: and the way that you I don't know, whatever you 408 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: call it counsel mentor work with people, it's it's the 409 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: opposite of cookie cutter. Like when I hear you talking, 410 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like anyone's in a program. I mean 411 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: they are, but it's like you're up the front, just 412 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: banging on like the fucking buff ed that you are. 413 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: And I think the fact that you come from that 414 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: you look like you look. He looks like fucking the 415 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: full on criminal everyone he was but he's not anymore. 416 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: But he still looks like one. God bless him, heads 417 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: toe in tats. But you know, because you look like 418 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: a rough ed But what comes out of your mouth 419 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: is not that Like what comes out of your mouth 420 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: is real life. His stories is a bit of wisdom, 421 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: is a bit of swearing. I think that you know that, 422 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: coupled with your you know, your your backstory, your life, 423 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: I think that makes people who might not be receptive to, 424 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, the expert, the academic expert walking in. I 425 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: think that makes you way more relatable. But also it 426 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: probably makes them more receptive to the message because not 427 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: even the message, the message is good, but because of 428 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: who you are. 429 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it brings brings weight, and it brings clout, and 430 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 2: it does with people that are going through problems. There 431 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: could be any audience but yeah, when someone's actually I mean, 432 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 2: I just find that inspiring from anybody, from anybody who's 433 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: actually been through severe troubles in their life and then 434 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 2: put their hand up and said, hey this and I've 435 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: made some massive mistakes here. I need you know, I 436 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 2: need help, And they ask the help and they turn 437 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 2: their life around. They genuinely turn their life around them. 438 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 2: And that inspires me. That hooks me in straight away, 439 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 2: and I guess people can consense that that's what's happened 440 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: for me. Yeah, and I love that. And again that's 441 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: about my pastor also playing a positive role in who 442 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 2: I am today because it helps me connect with people 443 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: really really quickly. It's funny how many people I work 444 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: with that are trying to recover from addiction. And some 445 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 2: of the people that I talk with or that I 446 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 2: try and help, they say to me, holy fuck, in 447 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: one hour, I've learnt more from you and connected more 448 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: from you than I have with my psychiatrist that I've 449 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 2: been seeing for the last three years. Yeah, and it's 450 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 2: not once or twice. I hear here pretty much every 451 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: week all the time, and it's because I've been there, 452 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: but I've genuinely found a way out too, So it's sometimes, 453 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 2: you know, sometimes there's people getting around that have found 454 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 2: some recovery and that's good, and they might have a 455 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: year or two years clean and sober, which is absolutely amazing, 456 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: it's fantastic, but they don't have the clout yet. They 457 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 2: haven't been through significant troubles in their sobriety and had 458 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: to navigate their way through it without hitting the escape button. 459 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: Because remembering that adds where the kings and queens of 460 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: the escape button, we're always looking for the eject the 461 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 2: eject button or the eject hatch. We're always looking for it. 462 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 2: It's just an inbuilt reaction and to go through, to 463 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: go through life. And I've been through all types of 464 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: things in my life in my sobriety life, all types 465 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: of troubles and good times, and I've found a way 466 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 2: to navigate all of that. Take responsibility for myself. So 467 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 2: cease being a victim. You know, once I got called, 468 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 2: once I got called on a podcast. I can't remember 469 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 2: who's a what and I wouldn't say anyway, but I 470 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: got called an addiction survivor. Well, fuck me, I really 471 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 2: vomited everywhere because I just cannot cop that term. I'm 472 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 2: not an addiction survivor. That me saying that says I'm 473 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: a victim. I'm not a victim. I'm empowered. I took 474 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: responsibility for something that was wrong within me. Okay, addiction 475 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: is an illness, but I took responsibility for it and 476 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 2: treated it. That's different to being I'm a survivor. I'm 477 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: just lucky to No, I'm not. I admitted there was 478 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: a problem, I got to help, and I saw it 479 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 2: through and I still see it through. 480 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, how many people get how many people get put 481 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: in front of you or meet with you, potentially dragged 482 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: thereby a loved one who they've got a problem that 483 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: they won't admit they've or a problem. 484 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: Heaps Well over fifty percent of people get dragged in 485 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: front of me. Yeah, in that way, but that's okay, 486 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: because look, we've all got to start somewhere and maybe 487 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 2: maybe you know in that moment that person isn't quite 488 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: ready to completely admit complete defeat yet, but it's the 489 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: beginning of it. It's got to start somewhere. And when 490 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: someone is dragged in front of me, So fifty percent 491 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 2: of people get dragged in front of me and you 492 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: know they've it's kind of like, well, you know, they've 493 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: been cornered circumstance. There's not always a loved one or 494 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: a parent. Sometimes life just corners us. And there's very 495 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 2: few people that get up one day and go, oh, 496 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: you know what, I might knit down to the local 497 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: rehab and better myself and better the world. 498 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: Right. 499 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: That just doesn't fucking happen. People don't get up one 500 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: day and go, I'm going to make some more positive 501 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 2: life decisions. I'm going to kick this habit. Yeah, rubbish 502 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: doesn't happen. People come see help when they're fucked, when 503 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 2: their life has fucking blown up, and if they don't 504 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: realize it's fucking blown up yet, mom and dad or 505 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: the missus does yeh, Megan fuck? And so they get 506 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: someone to come and sit in front of me, and 507 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: then I, hopefully eloquently point out to them, Tiger, you're fucked. Yeah, 508 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 2: you likee A's fucked. People don't come to see help 509 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 2: for addiction because everything's going good. 510 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, does it take. I mean, I've heard 511 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: you talk before about but by the way, everyone, I'm 512 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: moving forward with this chat with Mick today on the 513 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: assumption that about seventy or eighty percent of you haven't 514 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: met Mick, or if you have yet, if you haven't 515 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: memorized everything he said the last chat. So if some 516 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: of this is familiar, I apologize. But I many times 517 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: I've heard you say, you know people or something like this. 518 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: People have got to hit rock bottom, and so I 519 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: guess that's when people, you know. The thing about addiction 520 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: to a point is when you're using and you're in 521 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: the middle of it. Albeit from an overall perspective, it's diabolical, 522 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: But in the moment, when you're actually using and high 523 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: or drunk or whatever, it's fucking amazing right in the moment. 524 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: It can be although the latest stages of addiction, and 525 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: that can be the later years. Yeah, it's not amazing 526 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: even when you are. It's not working anymore. It's not 527 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: doing right, right, doing what it's meant to be doing. 528 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 2: But we're stuck in it. We're stuck. 529 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: Is that because your receptors downregulate and when you used 530 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: to take X you get high. Now you take five 531 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: X to get the same effect, and then you take 532 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: is it? Why? Why is it not working? Is it 533 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: because your body just doesn't respond the same or what 534 00:31:58,680 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: is that? 535 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 2: It's a few different components. So one of the components 536 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: is the dopamine. Your body can't your brain can't even 537 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 2: artificially produce the amount of dopamine. That's quite because really, 538 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 2: if we broke addiction down, and most people when they 539 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: come to see me, they go, I'm an ice addict, 540 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: or I'm an alcoholic, or I'm a gambler, or I'm 541 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: a sex addict, I actually don't give a fuck, right 542 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: because the act out or the substance is just a 543 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: symptom what we're really addicted to, if you really want 544 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: to break it down, we're really addicted to dopamine. These 545 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 2: substances are just a particular trigger that triggers the right 546 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: amount of dopamine that releases all this dopamine in our brain, 547 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: and it is so euphoric that it medicates our thinking. 548 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: It stops our obsessive thinking, and it pushes down all 549 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 2: our emotions and we become just absolutely caught in this moment. 550 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: So when you first start using drinking and you have 551 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: your drug a choice, you get the dump of dopamine 552 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, Oh my fucking god, everything's wonderful. 553 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 2: I love everyone. It's like the guy's got the guy 554 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: at the pub that's got family at home on a 555 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: beautiful night, and I walk into the pub and have 556 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 2: the first drink or have the first couple of pots, 557 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: and next thing you know, oh my fucking god, I 558 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 2: love this, so fuck going home. I'm going to go 559 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 2: home to the missus. I'm going to stay here and 560 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 2: drink with this old bloke in the bar. And by 561 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: the way, old bloke, I fucking love you. I'll go 562 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: to fucking war with you, all right. Meanwhile, I've got 563 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: a missus and kids at hand. I couldn't give a 564 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 2: shit that are waiting for me because I'm in la 565 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,959 Speaker 2: la land, because dopamine has absolutely flooded my brain and 566 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: I'm in bliss. None never wanted to end. So what 567 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: happens is their brains can't continually produce that for decades 568 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: upon decades, and so we keep drinking and using all 569 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: these substances and doing different things. It might be porn, 570 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 2: it might be relationships, that might be whatever it is, 571 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 2: doing all of these behaviors to try and get that 572 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 2: dopamine hit, and it's just not doing the job anymore. 573 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 2: It's not medicating our thinking, and it's not suppressing our emotions. 574 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,479 Speaker 2: Which that's scape. That's essentially what the escape button does 575 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 2: gets us out of dealing with that or acknowledging that stuff. 576 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: And so, but also what happens in later years is 577 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 2: that all of the consequences of our drinking, using, punting, 578 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: whatever it might be, have all culminated over years, and 579 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 2: we've been suppressed suppressing it for the years. So we 580 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 2: end up with all this baggage, and the baggage piles 581 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 2: up so high, and the dopamine level comes down so 582 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 2: low that it won't medicate any of it, and it 583 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 2: all starts to spill out the top, and that's when 584 00:34:51,000 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: people start to get suicidal, homicidal, you know, other psychiatric issues. 585 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 2: So all of that stuff happens because of that, and 586 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: it's a terrible place to be. And you know what, 587 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: like treating addiction or helping somebody with addiction then stopping using, drinking, punting, 588 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: whatever it is, that's wonderful. It has to happen, But 589 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 2: that's not how you treat addiction. That doesn't fix the problem. 590 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: All that does is place a person on the platform 591 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 2: where we can address the problem. Because remember this one 592 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 2: crazy boy, addiction comes in people that doesn't come in bottles. Yeah, 593 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,919 Speaker 2: addiction comes in people, and you can put the bottle down, 594 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: you can put everything down with the addiction still in 595 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: the person. And if it's not treated, we're going to 596 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 2: look for the escape button again. And what's the escape button? 597 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 2: Anything that can make me escape line life, anything that 598 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 2: can trigger that dopamine hit the right amount of dopamine 599 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: that allows me to medicate everything again. And that's why 600 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 2: people move. They change their drug of choice. They can say, yeah, 601 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 2: I was addicted to alcohol, but I'm good now, but 602 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 2: I'm on the bonds every night, yeah right right, Or no, no, 603 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 2: I've stopped drinking, but you know now I'm down the 604 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 2: pokings and I don't drink, but I'll put your money 605 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: in the pokies. 606 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 607 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 2: Or it just shifts and changes. So we call it 608 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 2: swapping the wig for the bitch, all right, and we're 609 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: just the bitch and shape shifts because the person's only 610 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 2: looking at treating the symptom. They're only looking at treating 611 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 2: the substance it's taking that that's not treating the problem. 612 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: I get a team. I'm just interrupting me and Mick 613 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: because we were we were quite verbose for quite a while. 614 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: So I've decided to separate this into part one and 615 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: part two. We'll be back to my Bura with the 616 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: rest of the conversation. I hope you're enjoying it.