1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: So I have a question for you, with my deepest 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: apologies to Rogers and Hammerstein, what is the very modeling 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: of modern masculinity? I've been thinking a lot since Maggie 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: Dent was here the other day. I have been I've 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about how we as a community 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: have somehow found ourselves in a place where naturally expressive 7 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: forms of masculinity are sometimes not seen as that and 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: sometimes not seen as just a natural, healthy expression of 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,319 Speaker 1: what it is to be a man. Now, I never 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: went to university. Everything I know from gender studies, I 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: know from reading books and having some of these things 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: very patiently explained to me by very patient women in 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: my life. I probably know less than I need to 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: know in order to explore some of these ideas I've 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: got after speaking with Maggie the other day. But I 16 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: really worry about young men, and I worry about our boys. 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: I do. 18 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: And I'm going to ask you another question. When you 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: saw Donald Trump duck, did you need to see a 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: picture to know exactly what kind of person was lying 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: on the roof there with a rifle? It was a 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: lonely young white man. 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 2: You already knew what the news reports about it. Were 24 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: going to be. 25 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: You already knew how many friends he had, You already 26 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: knew his experience in high school, You already knew what 27 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: his family were going to say. And as I said 28 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: to Maggie, I'm really concerned about. 29 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: The young men in our community. 30 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: And there's a couple of thoughts I've got on this, 31 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: but I don't know how on earth I'm going to 32 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: do that because I'm shit scared about speaking about this stuff. 33 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: But I guess you know. I can't really be canceled 34 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: because all my TV shows have already canceled, So fuck it. 35 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: I got to pay some bills first. I'll be right 36 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: back after the break. Thanks for being here. I'm watching Ginsburg. 37 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: This is better than you yesterday, making it better every 38 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: episode since twenty thirteen. If you want to get on 39 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: the newsletter, which I recommend you do, you can find 40 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: a link to it in the newsletter bit of the 41 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: show notes, which is just inside the app. It's finally 42 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: I found a place I can finally get my head 43 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: around as far as communicating written stuff, and I'm putting 44 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: things out quite regularly. 45 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: Which stuff is not here? Yeah, you can. 46 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: Find a link in the show notes. So on Wednesday, 47 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: Maggie Dent was here, the extraordinary Maggie Dent. She's just unbelievable, 48 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: and she and I were talking pretty deep about the 49 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: outcome of young men in our community. 50 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: And someone asked me the other day, you know, because 51 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: I've been talking a bit about this. 52 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: I talked about it on George z episode show, which 53 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: I'll get to that in a second. 54 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 2: How can we help. 55 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: Young men learn to express their masculinity and their identity 56 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: in a healthy way when they're young, so that once 57 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: they change size and change shape in their teen years, 58 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: they're less of a danger to themselves to others. And 59 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, that's an important question to ask that. There's 60 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: a few other things you need to consider, because when 61 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: men are young, or they're boys or young men or 62 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: teenage boys, they're fundamentally very different to young girls. There's 63 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: some stark differences actually between teenage boys and teenage girls brains, 64 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to inhibition. 65 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: And there's other very clear. 66 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: Differences, notably around when boys develop certain language skills and 67 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 1: emotional capacity, including the capacity for empathy. 68 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 2: And it's like being cranky at. 69 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: A four year old my one Wolfgang when he you know, 70 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: you say don't do that thing, Please don't throw that thing. 71 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: And he throws that thing. You can't be mad at him, 72 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: really because the bit of his brain that tells him 73 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: not to do it doesn't exist yet. The impulse thing 74 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: isn't there, so you can't really get that mad at 75 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: him because his brain can't stop himself from doing it. Similarly, 76 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: when boys are teenagers, their brains just the impulse things 77 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: not really there. 78 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: That Well, Maggie and I were talking about the. 79 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: Day, so I wonder what would it take to shift 80 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: how we think about masculinity, to shift the way we 81 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: defind what it is to be a man so that 82 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: when a young man. 83 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: Is introduced into a situation. 84 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: He's not seen as a threat, he's not seen as 85 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: a hindrance, but instead he's seen as someone who can contribute. 86 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: What kind of. 87 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: Ways can we go about raising young boys into young men? 88 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: What kind of things would we need to think about 89 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: to make that happen. What kind of things could we 90 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: show these young boys to aspire to, because right now 91 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: the bar we're setting for men in Australia at least 92 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: is not very high, and even to talk about that, 93 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of dangerous. Territory I was sitting in the 94 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: Sawner the other night and I had a podcast on. 95 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: I was listening to the Josh Zepp Speak with Tim 96 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: Minchin too, people I admire enormously, and it was very 97 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: odd listening to these two guys, one of whom I 98 00:04:58,320 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: know quite. 99 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: Well and one of them i've met one. It's in 100 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 2: a line for. 101 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: A photo thing and a thing listening to them discuss 102 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: my inability to talk about this because I had been 103 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: on Josh SEP's show, which is actually quite a lovely 104 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: episode of Very Grateful Joss let me on because that's 105 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: what I was kind of really struggling with this idea, 106 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: and Tim listened to it, and it felt both hilarious 107 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: and very interesting because I have enormous admiration for these 108 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: both of these men, and it was so clearly evident 109 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: by Tim and Josh's response to that that the struggle 110 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: and concern that I had about discussing this in public 111 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: is very real, because a lot of it is to 112 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: do with the assumed intent about the conversation, because we're 113 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: fucked if we have to qualify everything every time we speak, 114 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: and I've been finding that more and more, and when 115 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Josh. 116 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: If you listen to the episode, you can hear. 117 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: How haltingly I'm talking because I'm self editing so much. 118 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: If when we speak about stuff that's a bit touchy, 119 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: we are anticipating what about ism, We're going to spend 120 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: ninety percent of our time qualifying ourselves before we actually 121 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: address the thing that we feel is important. And then 122 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: it'll be a miracle if that thing is responded to 123 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: in its own right, because in an effort to move 124 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: a conversation forward, so often responses to those things are 125 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: sidetracked by the water battery that we've become kind of 126 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: shackled to. And I don't know if it's a great 127 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: habit that we're all in. 128 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: I'm in it. 129 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just as much as anyone can we 130 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: possibly imagine a world where someone like me, who I'd 131 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: like to think has the bona fides in the area 132 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: of good intent and is someone who has shown time 133 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: and again that if I make a misstep, I'll try 134 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: to learn from it. You know, I might be a 135 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: bit defensive for a second, but I'll try to learn 136 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: from it and then go, well, I once thought that, 137 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: I don't think that anymore, And then be taken as 138 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: that can that world exist? I wonder if we could 139 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: try it now, just as an exercise, just for a moment. 140 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: Notice how often in the next couple of minutes, what 141 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: about feeling shows up? 142 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: All right? Because it's a particular habit that we've all 143 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: gotten into. 144 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: Like I said, I've gotten into it as well, and 145 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: it leads us down just a thousand fractured tributaries and 146 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: never to the actual head of the river. We never 147 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: get to the actual upstream problem because we're fracturing the 148 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: discussion at every single step. Now, that's not to say 149 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: that nuance does not have a place in our dialogue. 150 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: Nuance is vital to our dialogue. But we kind of 151 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: have to speak about things. We kind of have to 152 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: find our way to these tricky bits in themselves while 153 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: just holding in our heads that all the other bits 154 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: still exist and the personal I'm speaking to does acknowledge them. 155 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: To take the river analogy a little further, let's just, 156 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: for example, let's say that you and I are surveying 157 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: the Murray River. 158 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: All right. 159 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: It's a massive river in Australia, and it shoots out 160 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: into the ocean in South Australia and let's say the 161 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: Murray River is masculinity, okay, And you and I are 162 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: in a boat with oars and we are looking for 163 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: the source of the Murray River so we can talk 164 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: about redefining what it is to be a young man. 165 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: We're going to go all the way to the start 166 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: as if. As you and I row our boat up 167 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: the Murray River a bend at a time, there's people 168 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: on the bank screaming at us, and we respond to 169 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: them because they're shouting, you can't. 170 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: Talk about the Murray River without talking about the Darling River. 171 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: Oh goodness, of course we can't, because it's the Darling 172 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: River flows into the Murray River. It's a fundamental part 173 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: of it. Oh. 174 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 2: So we turn up there, we turn right. 175 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: At Wentworth and now we get stuck in all these 176 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: little creeks and things, and we're, oh, no, we're not. 177 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: It's not the start of the Murray. We go back 178 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: down down downtown and can turn. 179 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: Back up stream, and then we get along a bit 180 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: and there's the people on the other bank screaming, like 181 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: you looked. 182 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: At the Darling River. How dare you exclude the Loddon River? 183 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: Oh shit? 184 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: And now you and I are in a rowboat lost 185 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: in sworn Hill. Nobody wants to be in swan Hill. 186 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: So back we go back down to the Murray and 187 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: wing were oh row row And we get on the 188 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: Coastguard marine. Hey as you know, you and me, and 189 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: we're going up to survey the Murray River. And then 190 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: every channel on the boat radio is just full of 191 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: reactionary talk back that by now they've heard about our 192 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: journey and we're trying to find the source of Murray 193 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: River and the head of masculinity, and there's just shock 194 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: jock after shock chock and caller after caller, just outrage 195 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: that we have given time to the daling and the 196 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: Loddon River. And if you dare go near the Golden 197 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: River before you go up the Murrambidgee River, then you're 198 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: just a. 199 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: Bunch of wokies. 200 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: You're literally paddling up shit creek and breeding lies about 201 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: what the river really is. Ah. And what happens is 202 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: we'll never end up at the thing that we want 203 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: to explore, doing what we've set out to do because 204 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: nobody's shouting at us on the side of the bank 205 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: or the talk back radio of the marine, you know, 206 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: walkie TALKI thing can hold in their heads that we 207 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: have a good heart, We are committed to equity and 208 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: fairness of all rivers. Yet to do that, it's actually 209 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: vital that we explore the start of this particular waterway 210 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: first and then assess how each input downstream changes the 211 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: water that eventually flows into the sea. That's a wild metaphor, 212 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: but it's the only one I could kind of think of. 213 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: And if you know your rivers, you'll actually know that 214 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: I missed one. Can you hold in your heart that 215 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: I had the best intent there? Or are you offended 216 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: on behalf of the campusby river, which you probably didn't 217 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: know about unless you're from Itchuka, but now you know 218 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: that I missed it. Are you going to ride off 219 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: my entire conversation here today as the rantings of a 220 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: campus be a statthole? 221 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: Probably not. 222 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: At the start of the year, I was on stage 223 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: at the All About Women Festival at the Sydney Opera 224 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: House speaking about exactly this, speaking about how difficult it 225 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: is to talk about this kind of thing, and especially 226 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: when talking about how low we've set the bar for 227 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: masculinity in Australia in the behavior of men in our country, 228 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: I mentioned my pet peeve the dumb fat dad talked 229 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: about him before, and then he just needs to be 230 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: eliminated from all TV commercials. But that is the very 231 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: model of model masculinity right now, some bloke on an 232 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: aid who doesn't look after himself eats terribly, forgot the. 233 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,599 Speaker 2: Boy the right insurance or download the movies on the 234 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: iPad or whatever. 235 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 1: If that's what we're putting up on a pedestal, and 236 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: that's the best we can hope for. And I also 237 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: spoke as one of the other two for three men 238 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: in the room. I spoke about how we might need 239 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: to make room for men to find a place in 240 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: society as traditional roles and income streams very rightly shift 241 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: to more equitable places. Then I've got some feedback from 242 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: the audience, which I was ready for, about how confronting 243 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: it was to be asked to make space for men. 244 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: And I totally get that if you spend a life 245 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: rightfully battling for the cause of feminism to then be 246 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: asked to turn around and help up the men left 247 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: in the wake of that change, that's a lot to 248 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: be asked. And I totally get that not everyone would 249 00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: be okay with that ask. 250 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: Yet, when I. 251 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: Listen and I read, and I'm constantly confronted with the 252 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: same ongoing horrors of what's happening into women in our 253 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: country at the hands of men, at the rates of 254 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: university enrollment between men and women, and how men are 255 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: getting so left behind. Something needs to happen, because we 256 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: all know what happens when men are purposeless and don't 257 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: know their place in the world. There's absolutely no doubt 258 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: that the academic and working world that my stepdaughter G 259 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: is beginning her life into is a vastly better place 260 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: than it was for her mum twenty years ago, or 261 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,719 Speaker 1: even my wife's mum before that. G now has this 262 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: world to live in because of the battles of feminism 263 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: that have been fought and have very rightly been an 264 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: overall and enormously positive influence on the world that you 265 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: and I live in, and in many aspects has made 266 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: the world a far more considered, far more equitable. That 267 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: is not to say the work of feminism is done, 268 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: far far from it, But I'm grateful to live in 269 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: the world that has been fought for for these causes. 270 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: But I do want to talk about even though we 271 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: have done so much in reframing the role of women 272 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: in our community. Have we maybe forgotten to do something else? 273 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about that after the break, 274 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. I was talking about the enormous 275 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: and incredibly beneficial work that feminism has given us in 276 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: our society and this world that I get to live 277 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: in now, that is the product of these enormous fights, 278 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: and rightly so. It's wonderful to see the world that 279 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: my stepdaughter can grow into because of these things, and 280 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: feminism has given us a far more wonderful world to be, 281 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: and that it was thirty years ago, fifty years ago, 282 00:13:58,559 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: one hundred years ago. 283 00:13:59,400 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: For all of us. 284 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: Feminism has given women largely the choice to be feminine 285 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: or masculine, a CEO or a stay at home mom, 286 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: a girly or sexual, none of. 287 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: The above, all of the above. 288 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: Each of these choices is seen as a choice to 289 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: be respected. And I wonder, while we have been quite 290 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: rightly reframing the role in the place of women in 291 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: our community and seeing the benefits that we all share 292 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: from that, I wonder have we been paying attention to 293 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: adding similar amounts of choice to the roles and place 294 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: of men and boys in our community or a similar 295 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: amount of respect for those choices. 296 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: So I don't know if we have. 297 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: I was talking to Audrey about this just before I recorded, 298 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: because this is so you know, this is how shitty 299 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: my ability to deal with my own internal what aboutis 300 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: and radar. This is the third go I've had at 301 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: recording this. I've done it and then run it past 302 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: the team and they've got a it's not quite right. 303 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: You don't sound man. I've even run it past. 304 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: This is the third time I try this, And I've 305 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: talked to Audrey about this before, and she quite rightly 306 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: pointed out that the equality that feminism fights so hard 307 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: for has been largely defined by women, and I wonder, though, 308 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: are we ready to make space for men to redefine 309 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: what it looks like to be a man in a 310 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: way that still gives a sense of purpose and meaning 311 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: in the world, yet does not undo the hard fought 312 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: benefits of feminism, Because right now, what does healthy masculinity 313 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: look like, and what does it look like to both 314 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: men and women. To illustrate this point, my former colleague 315 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: staff he's. 316 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: On radio and Brisbane. He's an amazing guy. 317 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: At the time, his daughter was I think four or five, 318 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: and he came into work one day and he was 319 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: just so shad, what's going on? He goes, oh, yesterday 320 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: this lady at the supermarket. He was there with his daughter. 321 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: They were doing the groceries, and the lady at the supermarket, 322 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: who was maybe a tinchy bit older than him. He's 323 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: a little younger than I am, so maybe the lady 324 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: she I don't know, probably like early forties. 325 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: And she goes babysitting? 326 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: Are you? And he says, no parenting? All right, because 327 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: this is the attitude that this lady has towards this 328 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: man being an amazing father, Like, no, so to healthy masculinity? 329 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: Does it look like for both men and women? What 330 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: is healthy fatherhood look like for men and women? Like? 331 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,479 Speaker 2: How can we get this messaging? 332 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: Well? 333 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: What can we do? We'd better figure this out. We're 334 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 2: going to have to figure it. 335 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: Out because there's a lot of fellows who just don't 336 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: know where they fit in. They understand why they're being 337 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: shouted at do. 338 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: Better, but to do what else? I don't know. 339 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: And it's so rightening because there's just too many men 340 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: in our community who are single by choice. The stats 341 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 1: are terrifying. Too many men that are single because they 342 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: choose to be single. Too many men disengaging with society, 343 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: with a society that tells them that some of the 344 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: naturally expressive versions of who they are as a man 345 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: isn't okay. And as humans, we just want to belong. 346 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: We just want to feel seen. I guess maybe men 347 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: kind of particularly want to feel useful or have a 348 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: purpose about us. That's part of what we're wired to do, 349 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: the same way that people are wanted to be nurturing 350 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: or something. 351 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: But if as a. 352 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: Community we're labeling normal healthy aspects of masculinity is unhealthyland, 353 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: most men are going to go somewhere where they don't 354 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: feel so ostracized, and that's then there's plenty of putrid, 355 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: hyper masculine, super misogynist online spaces that foster the worst 356 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: kind of anti social attitudes and behavior. Just these places 357 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: just waiting to tell these men. 358 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: That they're okay. And it's the world that's wrong. Because 359 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: there's so much about. 360 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: What it is to be a man and that you've 361 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: got zero choice over it just happens. It's kind of 362 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: difficult to try to explain the all encompassing drives that 363 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: and the urges that overcome you on the other side 364 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: of puberty, you know, just to run and jump and 365 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: shout and push and harg and hit and be silly. 366 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 2: It's you can't stop a lot of it. 367 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: Let alone, you urge to have sex, on my goodness, 368 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: because to be masculine is to be sexual. I can't 369 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: quite put into words how completely overwhelming it is when 370 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: the testosterone literally focuses your every thought all day long 371 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: on sex. 372 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: Now. 373 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: I'm fifty now, so it does happen less, but you 374 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: can absolutely believe that for decades, I would walk down 375 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: the street, even when in a loving relationship, with no 376 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: want and nor will, to stray from that monogamy. My 377 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: brain is just going as I walk down the street, yep, yep, yes, no, no, yes, oh, yep, yep, 378 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: hurt and yep, oh yeah yes. I would absolutely definitely 379 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: every thought accompanied by a kind of a rush of 380 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: sexual excitement inside my body, not one that necessarily conjures 381 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: up passion. 382 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: I put this a physical. 383 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: Response in my body, but definitely a flush or a feeling. 384 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: It's most distracting. It wasn't until my thirties that I 385 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: learned what to do with these feelings, these releases of 386 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: energy in my body. I was taught by another man 387 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 1: how to use that energetic release for my own purpose, 388 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: rather than allow it to distract me from what I 389 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: was doing. To take that almost like a shot of espresso, 390 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: to be silently grateful in my brain for this young 391 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: lady and the wonderful things that I hear is doing 392 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: in the sun, all the wonderful things that her genes 393 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: are doing, to defy gravity, and take that rush of 394 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: energy and redirect it towards my own day, whatever I 395 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: was doing, the things that I want to create, things 396 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: that would serve a greater purpose, things that I can 397 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: use to be of service to. 398 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: People around me. 399 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: God, I wish I ye had I did that when 400 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: I was sixteen, I would have got so much more done. 401 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: When Meg and I talked to the day, we talked 402 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: about how in just the case of a few short months, 403 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: men can transform from a little boy who's really no 404 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: physical threat to a man sized protein synthesis machine, just 405 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: this ball of blood and muscle. 406 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: With the reasoning power of a ten year old. 407 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember it felt like overnight, almost having superpowers, 408 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: to wake up essentially and just find myself to be 409 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: just physically stronger than I had been only a. 410 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: Couple of weeks ago. It felt like overnight, but it 411 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: was probably in a few weeks or months ago. 412 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: Because when it comes to masculinity, I guess one of 413 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: the aspects we think about a lot is that is strength. 414 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: And strength is an important part of it, not just 415 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: physical strength, but to be a man, bravery is also 416 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: very important, to be courageous, leadership, resilience, that's also what. 417 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: Strength looks like for a man. Sometimes. 418 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: Now these aren't inherently masculine qualities, but there's clearly a 419 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: size and brute force advantage to someone who's gone through 420 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: puberty with that much test usterone in their system. To 421 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: be physically powerful can be seen as intimidating. But any 422 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 1: teenage boy who suddenly ducking under doorways didn't ask to 423 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: be that big. Nobody gets what they ask for and 424 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: puberty do they really? But if you couple that size 425 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: with the inbuilt nature of young men to just wrestle 426 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: all the time, if you don't know what you're looking at, 427 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: it can be kind of frightening. But boys and young men, 428 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: but I like to rumble, it's just what they do. 429 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: I remember doing it. If it gets into NonStop hyperloops. 430 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: Then they're unable to calm down, or the play gets 431 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: unnecessarily rough or mean or nasty. 432 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 2: Well, you got to step in there. But it's so 433 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: important to make. 434 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: Sure that we allow boys to play in this way. 435 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: It's in the moments like this that there are the 436 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: vital lessons that they can kind of safely learn about 437 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: how their bodies work and knowing what to do when 438 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: their anger takes over their arms. You can tell a 439 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: kid or you don't hit. In my experience, I was 440 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: told over and over and over and over, but it 441 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: wasn't until I did finally hit someone that I ran 442 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: away and cried, because not only did it feel so 443 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: awful to hurt another person, I was truly quite scared 444 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: at how unthinkingly I had hurt him, and that I 445 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: was unable to control myself when I got that mad. 446 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: Luckily I figured this out when I was fourteen, but 447 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: some people do not get that chance. I've been as 448 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: tall as I am since I was about sixteen. I 449 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 1: was actually was way heavier then. 450 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: I had no idea. 451 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: I'm the size and shape and the power of a 452 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: man at sixteen years old, the brain of just a 453 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: child my body was already big enough and powerful enough 454 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: to do all kinds of damage to myself and others. 455 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: It's absolutely imperative that before young boys get that big, 456 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 1: they have a sense of what healthy masculinity looks like, 457 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: and through play they've learned the boundaries of what their 458 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: body can do and where the hurt starts and the 459 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: fun stops. Before they get the keys to this man's 460 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: sized supersuit, that they have a model of masculinity to 461 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: aspire to, in a sense of purpose to fulfill as 462 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: a man in this world. And yet there are absolutely 463 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: many aspects of masculinity which are unhealthy. There are aspects 464 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: of masculinity which are straight up dangerous. But we're going 465 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: to have to have a new conversation about what it 466 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: means to be a man. We need to have the 467 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: hammer conversation. To paraphrase Roland Gourk who came on my 468 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: podcast while back. He's a professor in Canberra and we 469 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: talked about AI regulation and how important is the controller 470 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: to catastrophe, but he ended up talking about a hammer. 471 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: I'll paraphrase him, but essentially a hammer is an incredibly. 472 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 2: Useful tool, all right. 473 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: It can build a house, It can drive in a nail, 474 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: it can remove the same nail and put the nail 475 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: back in a different place. Because a hammer is designed 476 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: to correct its own mistakes if need be, there's a therefore, 477 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: it's built to fix its own mistakes. But a hammer 478 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: is also a murder weapon. Yet you don't need a 479 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: license to own a hammer. We've got restrictions on the 480 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: sales of guns of knives here in Australia, but anyone 481 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: can walk into a hardware shop and buy a hammer 482 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: for less than ten bucks. You don't even need to 483 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: be eighteen. Why is it okay for us to sell 484 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: a thing which could break into a house or even 485 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: kill a person to everybody? 486 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: How can we do that? 487 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: Because we as a community have come together and decided 488 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: this is what we do do with hammers, and this 489 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: is what we do not do with hammers. There was 490 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: a time when hammers didn't exist, and there was a 491 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: time when hammers did exist, And then we all sat down, 492 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: we all figured out, and we all toward each other 493 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: as we grew up. This is what we do with hammers, 494 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: this is what we do not do with hammers. And 495 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: that means that we can have hammers, we can live 496 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: without them if we have to. But it'll be very, 497 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: very difficult to get anything built. But you certainly wouldn't 498 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: ask you hammet and never hit anything. 499 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:02,719 Speaker 2: You just sit there. 500 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: Power You've done enough damage. Your kind break stuff, your 501 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: kind can kill. How come you haven't built anything? What 502 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: kind of hamra aya? I'm not saying in any way 503 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,719 Speaker 1: that unhealthy masculinity isn't a huge problem. It really is. 504 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: I'm terrified over myself. I haven't been since I was 505 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: a teenager. But I'm a grown man. I'm a father, 506 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: I'm a stepfather. I worry about my wife, worry about 507 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,479 Speaker 1: my stepdaughter, I worry about my son. The last thing 508 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: apparent of any boy it wants is for their son 509 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: to align with those kind of negative ideas or worse, 510 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: perpetrate any kind of violence, because he doesn't know how 511 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: to control those aspects of himself. Before we recorded this, 512 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: I just ran it past Ordery and she pulled out 513 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: a word I haven't heard for like thirty years. She 514 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: pulled out the word snag, which if you're young enough 515 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: you won't remember. But snag, I don't know's about thirty 516 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: years ago, sensitive new age guy. And she said, back 517 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: when men were first starting to be snags. They pretty 518 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: much had to give up any manly aspect of masculinity 519 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: in order to do that. It was literally one or 520 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: the other. And she's right, Yet, it doesn't have to 521 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: be one or the other. I don't think masculinity is 522 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: one or the other. We often praise men for showing 523 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: the feminine aspects of themselves, like empathy and nurturing vulnerability. 524 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 2: Those are all excellent qualities to have. 525 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: But I wonder what would happen if we chose to 526 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: celebrate healthy masculinity, to celebrate bravery, a sense of justice, strength, courage, resilience, reason, leadership, benevolence. 527 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: If we worked on doing that with the young men 528 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: and the young boys in our community, who knows, who 529 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: knows what we could build. Thanks for paddling up this 530 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: river with me. I hope we got there. Maybe we did, 531 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. He can always email me. 532 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: Just wrote back to the mailing list. 533 00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: You can find the newsletter and it's in the show. 534 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: Just jump on there and let me know what you thought. 535 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: There's a chat in the show notes as well as 536 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: click on it. 537 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: You'll find it. 538 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: I love your thoughts. Thanks being a part of it. 539 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: If you like the show. Please tell a friend, send 540 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: it to someone that does a huge thing for us. 541 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: Here's some credits and they're read by an AI. I 542 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: don't remember which accent it is, but it's certainly not mine. 543 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 2: This episode was brought to you by Andy Maer on 544 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: audio post production. Beck said on video post production to 545 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: Hyder on music. Our producer is Bree Steele. Asher's executive 546 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 2: function assistant is Monica Chapman. 547 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: Sign up to the regular newsletter and get every episode 548 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: ever at oshiginsburg dot com.