Speaker 1: Appoche production.
Speaker 2: This is Our Little Lady, the tragic story of the
Speaker 2: death of a fifteen year old girl in the tiny
Speaker 2: town of Saint Helen's. Her parents don't believe she took
Speaker 2: her own life. It's been a little while since I
Speaker 2: checked in with the parents of Eden Westbrook on the podcast.
Speaker 2: We have reached that via text about other stuff, but
Speaker 2: not officially on this channel. As you know, Jason and
Speaker 2: Amanda live in Saint Helen's in Tazzy and at this
Speaker 2: time of the year, it's starting to get a bit cold.
Speaker 3: I think we're at thirteen mate and wet, windy and
Speaker 3: wonderfully cold.
Speaker 2: Hey Jay, hey man, how it's nothing like working outside
Speaker 2: when it's like we always have a little bit of
Speaker 2: that pre chat before we get into the weeds of
Speaker 2: what's happening with their daughter's case. So you listening, it
Speaker 2: might feel that not much is happening, But I can
Speaker 2: tell you this next month is going to be big.
Speaker 1: It sounds like this is the month where everything's coming
Speaker 1: together and the stars are aligning, and nine years of
Speaker 1: perseverance and for the love of Eden and truth and justice,
Speaker 1: it's all seemingly coming together. We have Channel nine under
Speaker 1: Investigation have confirmed that they'll air the show this month.
Speaker 1: We've also got Amber Wilson interested in doing a story
Speaker 1: on Edin's phone, who just won an award for her
Speaker 1: journalism covering the Commission of inquiry into the Actually Detention Center,
Speaker 1: which has been a huge part of another link to
Speaker 1: Eden's death.
Speaker 3: Well as the lsay and j life rewards action and
Speaker 3: I believe we're all making progressive action for a better future,
Speaker 3: not just for our Eden, but for everyone in Tasmania
Speaker 3: that's had injustices, mate, because this is huge.
Speaker 2: Last time on the podcast, you heard Jari Weiss's mum Faith,
Speaker 2: her son was killed in Tasmania. The Karner originally ruled
Speaker 2: no inquest was needed, but thanks to Faith and her fight,
Speaker 2: the Attorney General at the time overturned that and ordered
Speaker 2: the Tasmanian Coroner to hold an inquest.
Speaker 1: I've actually followed this story from the beginning. It's very
Speaker 1: heartbreaking to c Jr's mum because I see her like
Speaker 1: a reflection. I call her the Warrior whenever I refer
Speaker 1: to her or speak with her. She's also endured something
Speaker 1: that I believe could have been better handled and prevented
Speaker 1: if we had had disaddressed at like nine years ago.
Speaker 1: She's not alone there either. There's a lot of injustice
Speaker 1: happening here and people are contacting me. But that really
Speaker 1: breaks your heart when a mother has to endure the
Speaker 1: death of her child under any circumstances.
Speaker 4: Look, I really admire her, Jay.
Speaker 3: And the other day when I took Amanda down to
Speaker 3: Hobart for her to meet Faith, I said I had
Speaker 3: just seen in the back of the car and I
Speaker 3: said to Amanda, I actually want to get a photo
Speaker 3: of you two months.
Speaker 4: I think that's a powerful photo because I.
Speaker 3: See Faith and I see Amanda as powerful mothers, powerful women,
Speaker 3: and they're standing together now, which is powerful.
Speaker 4: So I'd like to.
Speaker 3: Get that out there to other mothers that need to
Speaker 3: fight for injustices that they've found in the things that
Speaker 3: have happened to them.
Speaker 1: We're actually shy people, so for us to have to
Speaker 1: come out of our shell like.
Speaker 5: This, it's quite quite quite.
Speaker 4: The path to walk.
Speaker 1: I've contacted another lady who's lost a son in a
Speaker 1: similar circumstance in Queensland. I just want to be there
Speaker 1: for these people because they've come nine years down this track,
Speaker 1: and I have a few tools.
Speaker 4: Jay, I think I've said this before.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever if I've said it
Speaker 3: like as we've been recorded, But in the two hundred
Speaker 3: years of establishment, we've looked at this office that we're
Speaker 3: dealing with and they're claiming they've never got it wrong.
Speaker 3: And no one before Faith has ever been able.
Speaker 4: To put it back before the Supreme.
Speaker 3: Court and get a coronial investigation in quest happened in Tasmania.
Speaker 4: It's never happened.
Speaker 3: So Faith, as you heard it in your previous episode,
Speaker 3: she's the first person in history. So I've actually got
Speaker 3: a decision overturned by the Tasmanian Magistrates Supreme Court. If
Speaker 3: the current has made a decision not to have an inquest,
Speaker 3: no court, no supreme judge, has.
Speaker 4: Ever allowed that to happen. Yeah, it doesn't get overrule.
Speaker 4: So now this has happened.
Speaker 3: And that's really important because I don't know a person
Speaker 3: on the planet that hasn't got something wrong.
Speaker 4: So for an office to claim they make no.
Speaker 3: Mistakes, that pisses me off, Jay, because no one's perfect.
Speaker 4: And if we can better that office and put a
Speaker 4: spotlight on perhaps things that.
Speaker 3: Are going wrong, that's not a bad thing. They should
Speaker 3: be happy that we're doing this to make their job
Speaker 3: better and maybe easier.
Speaker 2: The strength that Faith showed into fighting the system and
Speaker 2: to overturning for the first time in Tasmania a coroner's decision.
Speaker 2: How much hope does that give you?
Speaker 3: And Jason massive hope, massive hope.
Speaker 1: Well, we just found out how she did that and
Speaker 1: it was a specific clause and again the torpedo strips. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so through faith this path we have a very clear path.
Speaker 1: And the Attorney General in Tasmania we just happened to
Speaker 1: get along. He's recently honored Hunter, our daughter from the
Speaker 1: Air Force in Parliament for her contribution and her attendance
Speaker 1: to the Queen's jubilee, and we've sat with him and
Speaker 1: his wife and had breakfast in Saint Helen's and when
Speaker 1: we see each other, we we're quite friendly and it's.
Speaker 4: Close acknowledgment there day.
Speaker 3: So we feel there's going to be a time where
Speaker 3: we all to sit down with the Attorney General perhaps
Speaker 3: get what we need to happen.
Speaker 4: For little leading and I believe.
Speaker 1: That at least Archer, although she has been you know,
Speaker 1: quite harshly described that action that was extremely monumental.
Speaker 2: Now that we've uncovered through the torpedo. The person that
Speaker 2: will remain anonymous at the moment through their work, their
Speaker 2: legal work, has that option that the option that faith used,
Speaker 2: has it legally never been given to you before, that's right.
Speaker 1: Never never had an option to do that, never had
Speaker 1: a passway, never had a guide to go that way,
Speaker 1: never been instructed. That was what he's going to be
Speaker 1: the outcome.
Speaker 4: We've got a pro bono lawyer with his hand up
Speaker 4: Hi Jane. He's willing to do those steps for us,
Speaker 4: and he knows how. He's very good.
Speaker 1: He's registered.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's registered in Tasmania. He can work in Tasmania.
Speaker 4: He's currently working in Tasmania. We've I haven't sat with him.
Speaker 3: We've spoken to a man has spoken to him a
Speaker 3: couple of times on the phone. I haven't as yet,
Speaker 3: but I've done some research on him and I'm looking
Speaker 3: forward to meeting him. But as I said before our recording,
Speaker 3: we will wait until the show under investigations.
Speaker 4: We'll see what comes.
Speaker 3: In from that show and what comes back to the podcast,
Speaker 3: and then we'll sit down with the pro bono lawyer
Speaker 3: and he will give us the directions and he will
Speaker 3: help us go to those steps where we need to
Speaker 3: go because we've just done sure on what that show
Speaker 3: is going to open up to, perhaps more evidence and
Speaker 3: more of the lines getting connected that's getting connected.
Speaker 2: A couple of other things that are happening in this month,
Speaker 2: in the next sort of thirty days, is that we've
Speaker 2: believe Regina Weiss's investigation into Paul Reynolds's behavior in Tasmania
Speaker 2: will be handed over.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's the end of this month. That's what I
Speaker 1: was saying. It's a big month.
Speaker 5: This month.
Speaker 1: The patients and all the people that have supported us,
Speaker 1: and yourself included, has represented us really well.
Speaker 3: Look, I'm hoping Commissioner Donna Adams is someone's going to
Speaker 3: take this seriously and act appropriately and get things done.
Speaker 3: Another strong woman in Tasmania. So I'm going to believe
Speaker 3: in her that she's in it for the right reasons.
Speaker 3: She's in it for getting to the bottom of what
Speaker 3: happened to Eden as well.
Speaker 6: Because we're prevented, through our associates, some powerful evidence that
Speaker 6: there was foul play on the night of Eden's death,
Speaker 6: and there's a botched investigation from the start.
Speaker 4: You can't you can't dress it up. That's what happened.
Speaker 2: You might remember when we first began this podcast, Jason
Speaker 2: and Amanda had the feeling that the town of Saint
Speaker 2: Helen's really didn't like them. They felt the town saw
Speaker 2: them as outsiders and probably saw them as closed off.
Speaker 2: But they also didn't have the complete story about why.
Speaker 2: Jason and Amanda obviously are so driven to find out
Speaker 2: what happened to their daughter.
Speaker 3: I'm shocked the support we're getting from most of the locals,
Speaker 3: and I'm talking probably ninety percent of people.
Speaker 4: I drop Amanda off and I.
Speaker 3: Sit in the car and she crosses the road to
Speaker 3: go into the little IgA.
Speaker 4: People give way to it. They're waving at her there.
Speaker 3: As she's walked across the road, the people on the
Speaker 3: corner saying gooday.
Speaker 4: Down it might attend there's people saying gooday.
Speaker 3: She's in the supermarket's basically there for milk and bread.
Speaker 3: Two minutes, mate, she's at fifteen minutes. The conversations we're
Speaker 3: having is really encouraging and supportive. I'm in a bit
Speaker 3: of shock, because, you know, even back in the start
Speaker 3: of the episode, the town hates us. I don't think
Speaker 3: the town hates us anymore.
Speaker 4: I think we've polarized the.
Speaker 3: Community, which is to be to be understandable.
Speaker 4: However, they didn't really know what happened.
Speaker 3: They just knew that we were upset, we were grieving,
Speaker 3: and when you have a grief in a death in
Speaker 3: your family and your grieving, people don't really They'll be
Speaker 3: there at the start, but then they sort of stay
Speaker 3: away from you because you know that person's they might
Speaker 3: say something wrong. But now that it's nine years coming
Speaker 3: up to ten, and they've heard the story because people
Speaker 3: that I haven't seen in ten years. Just yesterday I
Speaker 3: ran into a guy that haven't seen in ten years,
Speaker 3: and I haven't seen you guys. I was down to
Speaker 3: day ed and died, and I was reminiscent with him
Speaker 3: about that day. And I really appreciate that couple, and
Speaker 3: I haven't really seen them much since they actually bought
Speaker 3: even a star, yeah and yeah, they literally bought her
Speaker 3: a star up in the universe, and they've moved down
Speaker 3: here and they've invited this over. And he told me
Speaker 3: that his partner, his wife, has been listening to the podcast.
Speaker 4: And they're really with it and they didn't know what
Speaker 4: they now know.
Speaker 3: And so I think because of you J and what
Speaker 3: you've done in the podcast.
Speaker 4: It's given everyone outside of the story. And you couldn't
Speaker 4: come in.
Speaker 3: Our players driveway and sit down and talk to Jason
Speaker 3: and the Mander about it because we were heated.
Speaker 4: At times, we're passionate.
Speaker 3: We speak yeah, So you couldn't come and find that
Speaker 3: out just coming up our driveway and having a chat.
Speaker 3: You wouldn't have found that out in the street. They
Speaker 3: now know who we are, what we are, what we're about,
Speaker 3: our fight, our challenges.
Speaker 4: We're human, We're just a family. We want the truth.
Speaker 4: We need to know what happened to Eden that night.
Speaker 3: As I've said previously, Jay, Oh, where whatever happened.
Speaker 4: But I truly did.
Speaker 3: Not think Eden went out and committed suicide that night, mate,
Speaker 3: I think actually I don't think. I know she met
Speaker 3: up with the wrong people and there was foul play
Speaker 3: that happened, and our little Eadie was found dead the
Speaker 3: next day in the main street of our town, fifty
Speaker 3: meters from a police station. I've got to know what
Speaker 3: happened that night and why it's been.
Speaker 4: Covered up so strongly, and we will get to the
Speaker 4: bottom of this, Jake. I will not lie until the truth.
Speaker 3: On what happened to Eden is out, and I know
Speaker 3: to your listeners and that it's like, wow, when is
Speaker 3: this going to happen?
Speaker 4: It will happen. It's a matter of time.
Speaker 2: From what we understand, there is one piece missing from
Speaker 2: the coroner's report that you haven't seen, and you're a
Speaker 2: doctor that's independent. Has made an application to the coroner's
Speaker 2: court to see that that piece of information, and that
Speaker 2: information is the photos of the autopsy. Yes, yes, has
Speaker 2: the current made a decision on handing those over?
Speaker 3: Well, the decisions know And as student's dad, I'm in
Speaker 3: shock because we've He's got Eden's sisters who dressed and
Speaker 3: did Eden's makeup at the funeral parlor, and as you know,
Speaker 3: there's things that need to be looked at.
Speaker 4: I don't want to look at the photos in order
Speaker 4: as a.
Speaker 3: Man, but yeah, but Byron Collins, he's qualified and trained
Speaker 3: and he's able and he wants to look at them.
Speaker 4: Now we can put that to bed.
Speaker 3: We can be given a definitive answer on whether there
Speaker 3: was blunt force trauma to Eden's face, teeth, bruising, or neck.
Speaker 4: We can be explained through those photos if they're there
Speaker 4: or if they're not.
Speaker 3: Why they're not providing them and giving us closure on.
Speaker 4: That as parents is mind blowing.
Speaker 5: Jay.
Speaker 4: It's almost like a kick in the guts. And you know,
Speaker 4: I just don't know why they.
Speaker 3: Want to continue to hurt Jason and Amanda and Eden's
Speaker 3: siblings and.
Speaker 4: Not just us.
Speaker 3: I can see by through the messages and now is
Speaker 3: getting this is hurting lots of people.
Speaker 4: Even's death has affected thousands of.
Speaker 7: People, and the people that have heard your podcast, they're
Speaker 7: just like they want answers and they're feeling for us
Speaker 7: and they would hate this to happen to them.
Speaker 2: Can I ask what the reasons for the rejection of
Speaker 2: doctor Barron Collins is asked to see the autopsy photos?
Speaker 2: Was there any reasoning?
Speaker 1: There are none, You're just not getting them.
Speaker 4: I believe it's something to do.
Speaker 3: With because the cape calase is closed and it's not
Speaker 3: in any open investigation, so they hang on to them. However,
Speaker 3: as you know, we've made several written applications for those
Speaker 3: autopsy photos. We were even pretty much told and accepted
Speaker 3: for the all that we had to sign a document
Speaker 3: and it never happened.
Speaker 4: So they're saying one thing and doing another, and you think.
Speaker 3: Truly to close this matter, give doctor Warren Collins the
Speaker 3: autopsy photos and he's going to give afrimity.
Speaker 1: Okay, Jason, if it's closed. If it's closed, and that's
Speaker 1: the reason why we cannot see the autopsy photos. How
Speaker 1: do you open it if you actually this is what
Speaker 1: we want to see, so we can determine if it
Speaker 1: is worthy to be.
Speaker 4: Opened or not, or if it's an angle we need
Speaker 4: to really work on.
Speaker 2: Thanks to Jason and Amanda, we were able to reach
Speaker 2: out to doctor Barron Collins and he was happy enough
Speaker 2: to have a chat to us on the podcast. Now
Speaker 2: it's important that we don't go into Eden's case, but
Speaker 2: what we can do is get the general feeling of
Speaker 2: what should be happening in a case like Eden Westbrooks.
Speaker 5: My name is Richard Byron Collins. I'm a consultant forensic
Speaker 5: pathologist in full time private practice and I have been
Speaker 5: so since nineteen eighty five. I'm a qualified medical practitioner.
Speaker 5: I have an additional degree of Bachelor of Medical Science Honors,
Speaker 5: which is an undergraduate degree, and I'm a Fellow of
Speaker 5: the Royal College Pathologists in nineteen seventy nine in Special
Speaker 5: Forensic and so I have an extra training to be
Speaker 5: a forensic pathologist. Well, a forensic pathologist is the person
Speaker 5: who especially trained in the interpretation of injuries in relation
Speaker 5: to the cause of death and the cause of death
Speaker 5: in a general situation largely under the jurisdiction of the coroner.
Speaker 5: So the day to day practice of a forensic pathologist,
Speaker 5: which is slightly different from mine, is where a post
Speaker 5: mortem examination would be done on a deceased individual at
Speaker 5: the request of the coroner, and this examination may either
Speaker 5: be only an external examination or a complete examination which
Speaker 5: involves opening the three body cavities and examining all the
Speaker 5: organs and the pathologist once all the appropriate investigations have
Speaker 5: been carried out, would by the cause of death and
Speaker 5: if there are injuries involved, then it is the prerogative
Speaker 5: of the pathologist to identify, document and interpret the likely
Speaker 5: mechanism of causation of those injuries in relation to death
Speaker 5: or disability. Well, my role now being in private practice,
Speaker 5: I don't routinely carry out post mortem examinations. My role
Speaker 5: is really review of material that has been provided by
Speaker 5: the forensic pathologists who's carried out the autopsy and all
Speaker 5: the ancilary materials and any statements and diagrams and photographs
Speaker 5: in relation largely to a death, and then see whether
Speaker 5: I agree or disagree with the cause of death as
Speaker 5: stated in the autopsy report, and how if the person
Speaker 5: has died, how the injuries occurred, and how they related
Speaker 5: to the death. So I'm slightly different because I'm in
Speaker 5: private practice, although I do have the opportunity to carry
Speaker 5: out a post mortem examination. If it's required, say by
Speaker 5: the relatives or an accused person, then I can do that,
Speaker 5: but I don't physically work in an institution which does
Speaker 5: day to day post mortem examinations. For the coroner. Mine
Speaker 5: is a review role, and I'm largely retained in our
Speaker 5: society by the defense who are acting either for a
Speaker 5: family or for an accused person, to review all the
Speaker 5: materials prior to a committal hearing or a trial and
Speaker 5: provide advice to the legal team on medical issues, which
Speaker 5: may simply involve just explaining the complicated post mortem examination report.
Speaker 5: And I will also give, if required, some comment in
Speaker 5: relation to the cause of the injuries that might be
Speaker 5: present and whether they are consistent with the accused story
Speaker 5: or whether I agree wholeheartedly with what has been proposed
Speaker 5: by the prosecution and sometimes I agree entirely with the
Speaker 5: prosecution interpretation of the mechanisms of causation of the injuries,
Speaker 5: and other times there may be an equally viable and
Speaker 5: reasonable alternative explanation for injuries.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me why you're interested in the Westbrook matter?
Speaker 5: Well, I was retained indirectly by the family who were
Speaker 5: concerned of the circumstances around the death of their daughter.
Speaker 5: They were concerned at the investigation of the death and
Speaker 5: with the coronial findings. In other words, I think they
Speaker 5: have another explanation for how Eden died and why she
Speaker 5: died compared with what has been provided by the coroner.
Speaker 5: And this is not an uncommon sign situation. I'm dealing
Speaker 5: with a case in Queensland where the parents of a
Speaker 5: young man who was found hanging firmly believe that he
Speaker 5: was murdered rather than committed suicide. And there is some
Speaker 5: evidence which I've discovered which points in the direction of
Speaker 5: foul play in.
Speaker 2: The case of Eden. What sort of things And we're
Speaker 2: not going to get into specifics of what you've seen,
Speaker 2: as we've talked about, but in the case of Eden,
Speaker 2: you request everything that the pathology has done, or do
Speaker 2: you request the whole file. What are you looking for?
Speaker 5: It's the same in most matters that I'm asked to
Speaker 5: comment on. I request the whole file. The amount of
Speaker 5: material varies from case to case, and it may only
Speaker 5: be a couple of one hundred pages, two a couple
Speaker 5: of thousand pages, particularly if somebody has been admitted to
Speaker 5: the hospital for treatment following sustaining injuries and then dies.
Speaker 5: Because I like to have everything available for me to assess,
Speaker 5: because the legal team that may well instruct me often
Speaker 5: have don't understand the significance of some statements and some
Speaker 5: comments in some statements which means something to me but
Speaker 5: may not mean anything to them, and so I try
Speaker 5: and get as much material as is possible. There are
Speaker 5: some lawyers who think that if they provide opinions from
Speaker 5: other experts to me and all the material, that it's
Speaker 5: a waste of time and it may in fact color
Speaker 5: my thought process. That's quite erroneous, because I'm employed as
Speaker 5: an independent expert, and my findings are what I believe
Speaker 5: and what I would be prepared to substantiate or testify
Speaker 5: and give evidence to in court, and so I make
Speaker 5: up my own mind. But I like to be able
Speaker 5: to make up my own mind with the benefit of
Speaker 5: as much material as possible. And so what that might
Speaker 5: mean usually is the statement of facts in relation to death.
Speaker 5: So we're dealing with and any reliable witnesses or relevant witnesses,
Speaker 5: I should say, It's not for me to determine whether
Speaker 5: they're reliable or not. That's the court's job. And then
Speaker 5: any medical records which might have some information relevant to
Speaker 5: the cause, not only the written documentation, but I like
Speaker 5: to see the appropriate photographs or relevant photographs, and any
Speaker 5: light microscope slides which have been prepared from small samples
Speaker 5: of tissues retained at the autopsy of the major organs
Speaker 5: say that I can examine them under the microscope and
Speaker 5: see whether I agree or disagree with the findings of
Speaker 5: the pathologists who did the original autopsy.
Speaker 2: And so, in the case of in Westbrook, did you
Speaker 2: were you able to obtain the whole file from the coroner?
Speaker 5: As I understand it, I was able to obtain the
Speaker 5: whole file, including the post mortem examination report, but not
Speaker 5: the microscope slides or the photographs taken during the post
Speaker 5: mortem examination.
Speaker 2: So you weren't able to get the photos. But were
Speaker 2: they refused or did they not have them.
Speaker 5: My understanding is that they are available or present in
Speaker 5: the complete file, but they were not provided to me,
Speaker 5: which causes me great concern, just in the general sense,
Speaker 5: because any photographs speak a thousand words, and they are
Speaker 5: very In fact, they are essential and integral to a
Speaker 5: post mortem examination. They formed part of the autopsic report,
Speaker 5: although they're not written words. They're photographs. But what they
Speaker 5: do do is they assist in the interpretation of an
Speaker 5: injury and the identification of the injury. And it may
Speaker 5: be that there are injuries present on the deceased that
Speaker 5: haven't been described or have been incorrectly described in the
Speaker 5: autopsio report, and if one has the photographs for reference,
Speaker 5: these sorts of problems can be sorted out.
Speaker 2: Jason and Amanda talked on the podcast around their daughters
Speaker 2: and what they saw when they went to apply makeup
Speaker 2: to Eden when she was deceased, and their allegations around
Speaker 2: that she had broken or chipped teeth and some bruising
Speaker 2: around the face. Those sorts of things would be evident
Speaker 2: in I'm guessing in the photographs if you were able
Speaker 2: to see them, one would hope.
Speaker 5: So it depends on the quality of the photograph, and
Speaker 5: I must say they're usually pretty good quality photographs done
Speaker 5: during the post mortem examination. But yes, everything that is
Speaker 5: present on the body should be identifiable, just in the
Speaker 5: general sense, and I'm speaking in general terms and not
Speaker 5: specifically relating to the Westbrook matter. So if the appropriate
Speaker 5: photographs have been taken, then I should be able to
Speaker 5: identify everything that's present on the deceased individual.
Speaker 2: You've been doing this for quite some time, almost fifty years.
Speaker 2: Is it unusual, yes, for a coroner to not provide
Speaker 2: the photographs if they have them in an instance like
Speaker 2: in Westbrooks.
Speaker 5: Case, in my opinion or sorry, in my experience, and
Speaker 5: you're quite right at this almost fifty years, I have
Speaker 5: never faced this problem before, and I'm astounded that it
Speaker 5: has occurred, and it beggars belief that it has occurred,
Speaker 5: because I understand that the photographs are very sensitive and
Speaker 5: can be very disconcerting and upsetting to people who may
Speaker 5: view them, either with or without permission, or in other words,
Speaker 5: whether they should be viewing them or not. But as
Speaker 5: far as I'm concerned, as a consultant forensic pathologist who's
Speaker 5: been retained in this case or any other case, and
Speaker 5: it's the same for every case with the appropriate training
Speaker 5: or even more training than the individual who they have
Speaker 5: carried out the post mortem examination. Then I fail to
Speaker 5: understand the reasoning behind any refusal, and it's not occurred
Speaker 5: in any request that I've made ever over my career.
Speaker 5: And as I said before, they form part of the
Speaker 5: post mortem examination. They're not just an addendum. They're there
Speaker 5: as the autopsy record, as are the histology slides and
Speaker 5: any other investigations such as toxicology, which are always made available. Now,
Speaker 5: each state differs in their requirements as to what hurdles
Speaker 5: one has to jump in order to obtain materials, including photographs,
Speaker 5: but it is always the karner has the authority to
Speaker 5: release or not release any particular item in relation to
Speaker 5: the investigation.
Speaker 4: Of the death.
Speaker 5: But I've never not been able to obtain the photographs,
Speaker 5: although sometimes it's been somewhat difficult.
Speaker 2: What would be a reason that they wouldn't release those
Speaker 2: photographs to you a medical professional, that we're not talking
Speaker 2: about Jason and Amanda wanting to see them. They've stated
Speaker 2: that they don't. But for you, as a medical professional,
Speaker 2: what would be a possible reason they wouldn't release them?
Speaker 5: I suppose There are a number of reasons, but the
Speaker 5: first one that comes to mind is that the coroner
Speaker 5: or any coroner in his or her wisdom who refuses
Speaker 5: such a request may not appreciate the significance of the
Speaker 5: photographs in relation to interpretation of a post mortem examination report.
Speaker 2: Does that essentially mean that you're a little hamstrung now,
Speaker 2: given that you've got almost a completed file from the coroner,
Speaker 2: but with one vital thing missing.
Speaker 5: I'm not a little hamdstung. I'm totally handstrung and totally
Speaker 5: thrust because I can't provide a complete review of the
Speaker 5: circumstances in this particular case, in the Westbrook case, and
Speaker 5: as would be the same in any other case, and
Speaker 5: so I can't correlate what the autopsy findings are with
Speaker 5: the post mortem report and the photographs. While I may
Speaker 5: not have a question as to the cause of death,
Speaker 5: the circumstances surrounding the death, I can't properly assess because
Speaker 5: of the absence of the photographs another investigation which I
Speaker 5: would normally do, and this we haven't progressed down this
Speaker 5: track at the moment. With the Tasmanian karna. Commonly, for example,
Speaker 5: in a case where there's been a homicide, I would
Speaker 5: review all the materials, and then if the instructing solicitors
Speaker 5: we're happy that I do so, then I would speak
Speaker 5: directly with the pathologist who carried out the autopsy in
Speaker 5: order perhaps to clarify some issues in relation to the
Speaker 5: autopsy report. So that's another avenue of investigation in the
Speaker 5: Westbrook case, which hasn't been pursued at the present time.
Speaker 2: Is there any way that you can appeal the decision
Speaker 2: from the currenter not to release those findings.
Speaker 5: No, there isn't, And I think part of the currenter's
Speaker 5: problem in this particular case, apart from perhaps not appreciating
Speaker 5: the significance of not providing the findings as far as
Speaker 5: the investigation goes, is that I'm not directly involved in
Speaker 5: the case, one could argue, and I'm not a relative,
Speaker 5: and so there are strict rules around the provision of
Speaker 5: of materials. But as I said before, I think because
Speaker 5: I've been asked by the family, particularly to investigate the death,
Speaker 5: it seems to me somewhat incongruous that I haven't been
Speaker 5: provided with photographs