1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appoche production. 2 00:00:11,681 --> 00:00:14,361 Speaker 2: This is Our Little Lady, the tragic story of the 3 00:00:14,401 --> 00:00:16,681 Speaker 2: death of a fifteen year old girl in the tiny 4 00:00:16,721 --> 00:00:20,601 Speaker 2: town of Saint Helen's. Her parents don't believe she took 5 00:00:20,681 --> 00:00:25,121 Speaker 2: her own life. It's been a little while since I 6 00:00:25,281 --> 00:00:28,401 Speaker 2: checked in with the parents of Eden Westbrook on the podcast. 7 00:00:28,721 --> 00:00:31,241 Speaker 2: We have reached that via text about other stuff, but 8 00:00:31,321 --> 00:00:34,721 Speaker 2: not officially on this channel. As you know, Jason and 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,241 Speaker 2: Amanda live in Saint Helen's in Tazzy and at this 10 00:00:37,321 --> 00:00:39,641 Speaker 2: time of the year, it's starting to get a bit cold. 11 00:00:40,081 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 3: I think we're at thirteen mate and wet, windy and 12 00:00:42,561 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 3: wonderfully cold. 13 00:00:43,641 --> 00:00:47,001 Speaker 2: Hey Jay, hey man, how it's nothing like working outside 14 00:00:47,001 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 2: when it's like we always have a little bit of 15 00:00:48,601 --> 00:00:50,961 Speaker 2: that pre chat before we get into the weeds of 16 00:00:51,001 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 2: what's happening with their daughter's case. So you listening, it 17 00:00:55,921 --> 00:00:58,601 Speaker 2: might feel that not much is happening, But I can 18 00:00:58,641 --> 00:01:01,841 Speaker 2: tell you this next month is going to be big. 19 00:01:03,121 --> 00:01:06,681 Speaker 1: It sounds like this is the month where everything's coming 20 00:01:06,721 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: together and the stars are aligning, and nine years of 21 00:01:12,121 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: perseverance and for the love of Eden and truth and justice, 22 00:01:16,881 --> 00:01:21,801 Speaker 1: it's all seemingly coming together. We have Channel nine under 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,321 Speaker 1: Investigation have confirmed that they'll air the show this month. 24 00:01:25,961 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: We've also got Amber Wilson interested in doing a story 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,081 Speaker 1: on Edin's phone, who just won an award for her 26 00:01:33,161 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: journalism covering the Commission of inquiry into the Actually Detention Center, 27 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,041 Speaker 1: which has been a huge part of another link to 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:43,161 Speaker 1: Eden's death. 29 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,681 Speaker 3: Well as the lsay and j life rewards action and 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,041 Speaker 3: I believe we're all making progressive action for a better future, 31 00:01:50,161 --> 00:01:54,201 Speaker 3: not just for our Eden, but for everyone in Tasmania 32 00:01:54,201 --> 00:01:57,601 Speaker 3: that's had injustices, mate, because this is huge. 33 00:01:59,001 --> 00:02:02,281 Speaker 2: Last time on the podcast, you heard Jari Weiss's mum, Faith, 34 00:02:02,961 --> 00:02:07,281 Speaker 2: her son was killed in Tasmania. The Karner originally ruled 35 00:02:07,321 --> 00:02:11,721 Speaker 2: no inquest was needed, but thanks to Faith and her fight, 36 00:02:12,681 --> 00:02:16,041 Speaker 2: the Attorney General at the time overturned that and ordered 37 00:02:16,041 --> 00:02:18,801 Speaker 2: the Tasmanian Coroner to hold an inquest. 38 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:28,441 Speaker 1: I've actually followed this story from the beginning. It's very 39 00:02:28,481 --> 00:02:33,801 Speaker 1: heartbreaking to Cej's mum because I see her like a reflection. 40 00:02:33,921 --> 00:02:36,961 Speaker 1: I call her the Warrior whenever I refer to her 41 00:02:37,161 --> 00:02:42,041 Speaker 1: or speak with her. She's also endured something that I 42 00:02:42,081 --> 00:02:45,321 Speaker 1: believe could have been better handled and prevented if we 43 00:02:45,441 --> 00:02:50,441 Speaker 1: had had disaddressed at like nine years ago. She's not 44 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,281 Speaker 1: alone there either. There's a lot of injustice happening here 45 00:02:54,321 --> 00:02:57,001 Speaker 1: and people are contacting me. But that really breaks your 46 00:02:57,081 --> 00:03:01,521 Speaker 1: heart when a mother has to endure the death of 47 00:03:01,561 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: her child under any circumstances. 48 00:03:03,761 --> 00:03:05,641 Speaker 4: Look, I really admire her, Jay. 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,721 Speaker 3: And the other day when I took Amanda down to 50 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 3: Hobart for her to meet Faith, I said I had 51 00:03:11,441 --> 00:03:13,201 Speaker 3: just seen in the back of the car and I 52 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: said to Amanda, I actually want to get a photo 53 00:03:15,721 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 3: of you two months. 54 00:03:16,881 --> 00:03:19,081 Speaker 4: I think that's a powerful photo because I. 55 00:03:19,001 --> 00:03:23,761 Speaker 3: See Faith and I see Amanda as powerful mothers, powerful women, 56 00:03:24,281 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: and they're standing together now, which is powerful. 57 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 4: So I'd like to. 58 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,961 Speaker 3: Get that out there to other mothers that need to 59 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,201 Speaker 3: fight for injustices that they've found in the things that 60 00:03:36,241 --> 00:03:37,201 Speaker 3: have happened to them. 61 00:03:37,321 --> 00:03:43,481 Speaker 1: We're actually shy people, so for us to have to 62 00:03:43,881 --> 00:03:45,161 Speaker 1: come out of our shell like. 63 00:03:45,201 --> 00:03:49,961 Speaker 5: This, it's quite quite quite. 64 00:03:49,641 --> 00:03:51,801 Speaker 4: The path to walk. 65 00:03:52,361 --> 00:03:54,881 Speaker 1: I've contacted another lady who's lost a son in a 66 00:03:55,041 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: similar circumstance in Queensland. I just want to be there 67 00:03:58,481 --> 00:04:02,561 Speaker 1: for these people because they've come nine years down this track, 68 00:04:02,641 --> 00:04:04,001 Speaker 1: and I have a few tools. 69 00:04:04,401 --> 00:04:05,641 Speaker 4: Jay, I think I've said this before. 70 00:04:05,681 --> 00:04:07,961 Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever if I've said it 71 00:04:08,041 --> 00:04:11,081 Speaker 3: like as we've been recorded, But in the two hundred 72 00:04:11,121 --> 00:04:16,201 Speaker 3: years of establishment, we've looked at this office that we're 73 00:04:16,201 --> 00:04:19,081 Speaker 3: dealing with and they're claiming they've never got it wrong. 74 00:04:19,921 --> 00:04:23,761 Speaker 3: And no one before Faith has ever been able. 75 00:04:23,561 --> 00:04:26,281 Speaker 4: To put it back before the Supreme. 76 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,721 Speaker 3: Court and get a coronial investigation in quest happened in Tasmania. 77 00:04:30,721 --> 00:04:31,681 Speaker 4: It's never happened. 78 00:04:31,961 --> 00:04:35,041 Speaker 3: So Faith, as you heard it in your previous episode, 79 00:04:35,201 --> 00:04:38,361 Speaker 3: she's the first person in history. So I've actually got 80 00:04:38,401 --> 00:04:42,001 Speaker 3: a decision overturned by the Tasmanian Magistrates Supreme Court. If 81 00:04:42,001 --> 00:04:44,401 Speaker 3: the current has made a decision not to have an inquest, 82 00:04:44,641 --> 00:04:47,601 Speaker 3: no court, no supreme judge, has. 83 00:04:47,481 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 4: Ever allowed that to happen. Yeah, it doesn't get overrule. 84 00:04:51,001 --> 00:04:52,601 Speaker 4: So now this has happened. 85 00:04:52,241 --> 00:04:55,401 Speaker 3: And that's really important because I don't know a person 86 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: on the planet that hasn't got something wrong. 87 00:04:58,961 --> 00:05:01,841 Speaker 4: So for an office to claim they make no. 88 00:05:01,921 --> 00:05:06,961 Speaker 3: Mistakes, that pisses me off, Jay, because no one's perfect. 89 00:05:07,121 --> 00:05:10,681 Speaker 4: And if we can better that office and put a 90 00:05:10,681 --> 00:05:12,761 Speaker 4: spotlight on perhaps things that. 91 00:05:12,721 --> 00:05:16,121 Speaker 3: Are going wrong, that's not a bad thing. They should 92 00:05:16,121 --> 00:05:18,481 Speaker 3: be happy that we're doing this to make their job 93 00:05:18,561 --> 00:05:20,441 Speaker 3: better and maybe easier. 94 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: The strength that Faith showed into fighting the system and 95 00:05:25,001 --> 00:05:30,001 Speaker 2: to overturning for the first time in Tasmania a coroner's decision. 96 00:05:30,481 --> 00:05:31,921 Speaker 2: How much hope does that give you? 97 00:05:31,961 --> 00:05:35,161 Speaker 3: And Jason massive hope, massive hope. 98 00:05:35,161 --> 00:05:37,361 Speaker 1: Well, we just found out how she did that and 99 00:05:37,401 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: it was a specific clause and again the torpedo strips. Yeah, 100 00:05:43,401 --> 00:05:48,481 Speaker 1: so through faith this path we have a very clear path. 101 00:05:49,481 --> 00:05:55,241 Speaker 1: And the Attorney General in Tasmania we just happened to 102 00:05:55,241 --> 00:06:00,681 Speaker 1: get along. He's recently honored Hunter, our daughter from the 103 00:06:00,801 --> 00:06:07,001 Speaker 1: Air Force in Parliament for her contribution and her attendance 104 00:06:07,081 --> 00:06:10,921 Speaker 1: to the Queen's jubilee, and we've sat with him and 105 00:06:10,961 --> 00:06:13,201 Speaker 1: his wife and had breakfast in Saint Helen's and when 106 00:06:13,201 --> 00:06:16,801 Speaker 1: we see each other, we we're quite friendly and it's. 107 00:06:17,241 --> 00:06:18,841 Speaker 4: Acknowledgment there day. 108 00:06:18,961 --> 00:06:21,241 Speaker 3: So we feel there's going to be a time where 109 00:06:21,241 --> 00:06:24,241 Speaker 3: we all to sit down with the Attorney General perhaps 110 00:06:24,241 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: get what we need to happen. 111 00:06:25,681 --> 00:06:28,281 Speaker 4: For little leading And I believe. 112 00:06:28,041 --> 00:06:32,481 Speaker 1: That at least Archer, although she has been, you know, 113 00:06:33,041 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: quite harshly described that action that was extremely monumental. 114 00:06:40,481 --> 00:06:44,721 Speaker 2: Now that we've uncovered through the torpedo. The person that 115 00:06:44,801 --> 00:06:48,921 Speaker 2: will remain anonymous at the moment through their work, their 116 00:06:49,041 --> 00:06:53,001 Speaker 2: legal work, has that option that the option that faith used, 117 00:06:53,201 --> 00:06:56,641 Speaker 2: has it legally never been given to you before, that's right. 118 00:06:56,801 --> 00:06:59,361 Speaker 1: Never never had an option to do that, never had 119 00:06:59,361 --> 00:07:02,281 Speaker 1: a passway, never had a guide to go that way, 120 00:07:02,961 --> 00:07:05,721 Speaker 1: never been instructed. That was what he's going to be 121 00:07:05,761 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: the outcome. 122 00:07:06,921 --> 00:07:09,161 Speaker 4: We've got a pro bono lawyer with his hand up 123 00:07:09,201 --> 00:07:12,481 Speaker 4: Hi Jane. He's willing to do those steps for us, 124 00:07:12,521 --> 00:07:14,761 Speaker 4: and he knows how. He's very good. 125 00:07:14,921 --> 00:07:15,681 Speaker 1: He's registered. 126 00:07:15,961 --> 00:07:18,761 Speaker 4: Yeah, he's registered in Tasmania. He can work in Tasmania. 127 00:07:18,801 --> 00:07:22,641 Speaker 4: He's currently working in Tasmania. We've I haven't sat with him. 128 00:07:22,641 --> 00:07:25,041 Speaker 3: We've spoken to a man has spoken to him a 129 00:07:25,041 --> 00:07:27,721 Speaker 3: couple of times on the phone. I haven't as yet, 130 00:07:27,921 --> 00:07:29,921 Speaker 3: but I've done some research on him and I'm looking 131 00:07:29,961 --> 00:07:33,081 Speaker 3: forward to meeting him. But as I said before our recording, 132 00:07:33,401 --> 00:07:36,001 Speaker 3: we will wait until the show under investigations. 133 00:07:36,241 --> 00:07:37,321 Speaker 4: We'll see what comes. 134 00:07:37,081 --> 00:07:40,201 Speaker 3: In from that show and what comes back to the podcast, 135 00:07:40,321 --> 00:07:42,561 Speaker 3: and then we'll sit down with the pro bono lawyer 136 00:07:42,801 --> 00:07:45,321 Speaker 3: and he will give us the directions and he will 137 00:07:45,361 --> 00:07:47,361 Speaker 3: help us go to those steps where we need to 138 00:07:47,401 --> 00:07:50,881 Speaker 3: go because we've just done sure on what that show 139 00:07:51,641 --> 00:07:55,361 Speaker 3: is going to open up to, perhaps more evidence and 140 00:07:55,441 --> 00:07:58,921 Speaker 3: more of the lines getting connected that's getting connected. 141 00:07:59,081 --> 00:08:01,561 Speaker 2: A couple of other things that are happening in this month, 142 00:08:02,481 --> 00:08:04,961 Speaker 2: in the next sort of thirty days, is that we've 143 00:08:05,081 --> 00:08:11,321 Speaker 2: believe Regina Weiss's investigation into Paul Reynolds's behavior in Tasmania 144 00:08:11,761 --> 00:08:12,681 Speaker 2: will be handed over. 145 00:08:13,081 --> 00:08:15,121 Speaker 1: Yes, it's the end of this month. That's what I 146 00:08:15,161 --> 00:08:16,201 Speaker 1: was saying. It's a big month. 147 00:08:16,241 --> 00:08:16,721 Speaker 5: This month. 148 00:08:18,521 --> 00:08:22,841 Speaker 1: The patients and all the people that have supported us, 149 00:08:22,881 --> 00:08:28,321 Speaker 1: and yourself included, has represented us really well. 150 00:08:28,361 --> 00:08:33,361 Speaker 3: Look, I'm hoping Commissioner Donna Adams is someone's going to 151 00:08:33,361 --> 00:08:38,001 Speaker 3: take this seriously and act appropriately and get things done. 152 00:08:38,721 --> 00:08:42,201 Speaker 3: Another strong woman in Tasmania. So I'm going to believe 153 00:08:42,241 --> 00:08:44,401 Speaker 3: in her that she's in it for the right reasons. 154 00:08:44,681 --> 00:08:46,801 Speaker 3: She's in it for getting to the bottom of what 155 00:08:46,921 --> 00:08:48,281 Speaker 3: happened to Eden as well. 156 00:08:48,321 --> 00:08:55,761 Speaker 6: Because we're prevented, through our associates, some powerful evidence that 157 00:08:55,881 --> 00:08:58,281 Speaker 6: there was foul play on the night of Eden's death, 158 00:08:58,481 --> 00:09:01,681 Speaker 6: and there's a botched investigation from the start. 159 00:09:02,201 --> 00:09:05,001 Speaker 4: You can't you can't dress it up. That's what happened. 160 00:09:06,601 --> 00:09:09,801 Speaker 2: You might remember when we first began this podcast, Jason 161 00:09:09,841 --> 00:09:12,521 Speaker 2: and Amanda had the feeling that the town of Saint 162 00:09:12,601 --> 00:09:16,521 Speaker 2: Helen's really didn't like them. They felt the town saw 163 00:09:16,561 --> 00:09:20,121 Speaker 2: them as outsiders and probably saw them as closed off. 164 00:09:20,521 --> 00:09:23,881 Speaker 2: But they also didn't have the complete story about why. 165 00:09:24,441 --> 00:09:28,401 Speaker 2: Jason and Amanda obviously are so driven to find out 166 00:09:28,441 --> 00:09:29,761 Speaker 2: what happened to their daughter. 167 00:09:30,201 --> 00:09:34,041 Speaker 3: I'm shocked the support we're getting from most of the locals, 168 00:09:34,081 --> 00:09:36,481 Speaker 3: and I'm talking probably ninety percent of people. 169 00:09:36,921 --> 00:09:38,281 Speaker 4: I drop Amanda off and I. 170 00:09:38,241 --> 00:09:40,081 Speaker 3: Sit in the car and she crosses the road to 171 00:09:40,121 --> 00:09:41,121 Speaker 3: go into the little IgA. 172 00:09:41,841 --> 00:09:44,801 Speaker 4: People give way to it. They're waving at her there. 173 00:09:45,001 --> 00:09:46,761 Speaker 3: As she's walked across the road, the people on the 174 00:09:46,801 --> 00:09:47,601 Speaker 3: corner saying gooday. 175 00:09:48,041 --> 00:09:49,921 Speaker 4: Down it might attend there's people saying gooday. 176 00:09:50,081 --> 00:09:52,441 Speaker 3: She's in the supermarket's basically there for milk and bread. 177 00:09:52,561 --> 00:09:55,761 Speaker 3: Two minutes, mate, she's at fifteen minutes. The conversations we're 178 00:09:55,801 --> 00:10:00,521 Speaker 3: having is really encouraging and supportive. I'm in a bit 179 00:10:00,561 --> 00:10:02,601 Speaker 3: of shock, because, you know, even back in the start 180 00:10:02,641 --> 00:10:05,721 Speaker 3: of the episode, the town hates us. I don't think 181 00:10:05,721 --> 00:10:06,961 Speaker 3: the town hates us anymore. 182 00:10:07,161 --> 00:10:08,441 Speaker 4: I think we've polarized the. 183 00:10:08,361 --> 00:10:11,041 Speaker 3: Community, which is to be to be understandable. 184 00:10:11,281 --> 00:10:13,761 Speaker 4: However, they didn't really know what happened. 185 00:10:13,801 --> 00:10:16,081 Speaker 3: They just knew that we were upset, we were grieving, 186 00:10:16,281 --> 00:10:18,361 Speaker 3: and when you have a grief in a death in 187 00:10:18,401 --> 00:10:22,081 Speaker 3: your family and your grieving, people don't really They'll be 188 00:10:22,121 --> 00:10:24,081 Speaker 3: there at the start, but then they sort of stay 189 00:10:24,121 --> 00:10:26,401 Speaker 3: away from you because you know that person's they might 190 00:10:26,441 --> 00:10:29,841 Speaker 3: say something wrong. But now that it's nine years coming 191 00:10:29,881 --> 00:10:32,681 Speaker 3: up to ten, and they've heard the story because people 192 00:10:32,721 --> 00:10:35,041 Speaker 3: that I haven't seen in ten years. Just yesterday I 193 00:10:35,121 --> 00:10:37,041 Speaker 3: ran into a guy that haven't seen in ten years, 194 00:10:37,081 --> 00:10:39,641 Speaker 3: and I haven't seen you guys. I was down to 195 00:10:39,761 --> 00:10:41,761 Speaker 3: day ed and died, and I was reminiscent with him 196 00:10:41,761 --> 00:10:45,321 Speaker 3: about that day. And I really appreciate that couple, and 197 00:10:45,401 --> 00:10:48,801 Speaker 3: I haven't really seen them much since they actually bought 198 00:10:48,921 --> 00:10:51,521 Speaker 3: even a star, yeah and yeah, they literally bought her 199 00:10:51,521 --> 00:10:55,481 Speaker 3: a star up in the universe, and they've moved down 200 00:10:55,521 --> 00:10:58,961 Speaker 3: here and they've invited this over. And he told me 201 00:10:59,081 --> 00:11:02,921 Speaker 3: that his partner, his wife, has been listening to the podcast. 202 00:11:02,481 --> 00:11:07,441 Speaker 4: And they're really with it and they didn't know what 203 00:11:07,521 --> 00:11:08,081 Speaker 4: they now know. 204 00:11:08,281 --> 00:11:10,561 Speaker 3: And so I think because of you J and what 205 00:11:10,561 --> 00:11:11,721 Speaker 3: you've done in the podcast. 206 00:11:12,161 --> 00:11:16,041 Speaker 4: It's given everyone outside of the story. And you couldn't 207 00:11:16,041 --> 00:11:16,361 Speaker 4: come in. 208 00:11:16,321 --> 00:11:18,481 Speaker 3: Our players driveway and sit down and talk to Jason 209 00:11:18,521 --> 00:11:20,601 Speaker 3: and the Mander about it because we were heated. 210 00:11:20,361 --> 00:11:22,761 Speaker 4: At times, we're passionate. 211 00:11:22,681 --> 00:11:25,681 Speaker 3: We speak yeah, So you couldn't come and find that 212 00:11:25,721 --> 00:11:27,761 Speaker 3: out just coming up our driveway and having a chat. 213 00:11:27,761 --> 00:11:29,961 Speaker 3: You wouldn't have found that out in the street. They 214 00:11:30,001 --> 00:11:32,161 Speaker 3: now know who we are, what we are, what we're about, 215 00:11:32,201 --> 00:11:34,201 Speaker 3: our fight, our challenges. 216 00:11:34,681 --> 00:11:37,961 Speaker 4: We're human, We're just a family. We want the truth. 217 00:11:38,401 --> 00:11:40,241 Speaker 4: We need to know what happened to Eden that night. 218 00:11:40,481 --> 00:11:43,481 Speaker 3: As I've said previously, Jay, Oh, where whatever happened. 219 00:11:44,121 --> 00:11:45,281 Speaker 4: But I truly did. 220 00:11:45,081 --> 00:11:48,681 Speaker 3: Not think Eden went out and committed suicide that night, mate, 221 00:11:48,681 --> 00:11:51,481 Speaker 3: I think actually I don't think. I know she met 222 00:11:51,561 --> 00:11:53,881 Speaker 3: up with the wrong people and there was foul play 223 00:11:53,921 --> 00:11:56,481 Speaker 3: that happened, and our little Eadie was found dead the 224 00:11:56,481 --> 00:11:58,761 Speaker 3: next day in the main street of our town, fifty 225 00:11:58,801 --> 00:12:02,721 Speaker 3: meters from a police station. I've got to know what 226 00:12:02,921 --> 00:12:05,681 Speaker 3: happened that night and why it's been. 227 00:12:05,481 --> 00:12:10,361 Speaker 4: Covered up so strongly, and we will get to the 228 00:12:10,401 --> 00:12:14,561 Speaker 4: bottom of this, Jake. I will not lie until the truth. 229 00:12:14,601 --> 00:12:17,121 Speaker 3: On what happened to Eden is out, and I know 230 00:12:17,281 --> 00:12:19,721 Speaker 3: to your listeners and that it's like, wow, when is 231 00:12:19,761 --> 00:12:20,521 Speaker 3: this going to happen? 232 00:12:21,441 --> 00:12:23,361 Speaker 4: It will happen. It's a matter of time. 233 00:12:30,721 --> 00:12:33,681 Speaker 2: From what we understand, there is one piece missing from 234 00:12:33,721 --> 00:12:39,001 Speaker 2: the coroner's report that you haven't seen, and you're a 235 00:12:39,081 --> 00:12:43,761 Speaker 2: doctor that's independent. Has made an application to the coroner's 236 00:12:43,761 --> 00:12:47,961 Speaker 2: court to see that that piece of information, and that 237 00:12:48,001 --> 00:12:54,321 Speaker 2: information is the photos of the autopsy. Yes, yes, has 238 00:12:54,321 --> 00:12:56,601 Speaker 2: the current made a decision on handing those over? 239 00:12:57,841 --> 00:13:02,721 Speaker 3: Well, the decisions know And as student's dad, I'm in 240 00:13:02,961 --> 00:13:07,521 Speaker 3: shock because we've He's got Eden's sisters who dressed and 241 00:13:07,561 --> 00:13:12,721 Speaker 3: did Eden's makeup at the funeral parlor, and as you know, 242 00:13:13,241 --> 00:13:15,321 Speaker 3: there's things that need to be looked at. 243 00:13:15,561 --> 00:13:17,041 Speaker 4: I don't want to look at the photos in order 244 00:13:17,041 --> 00:13:17,281 Speaker 4: as a. 245 00:13:17,241 --> 00:13:22,001 Speaker 3: Man, but yeah, but Byron Collins, he's qualified and trained 246 00:13:22,041 --> 00:13:24,001 Speaker 3: and he's able and he wants to look at them. 247 00:13:24,201 --> 00:13:25,521 Speaker 4: Now we can put that to bed. 248 00:13:25,881 --> 00:13:29,641 Speaker 3: We can be given a definitive answer on whether there 249 00:13:29,681 --> 00:13:34,081 Speaker 3: was blunt force trauma to Eden's face, teeth, bruising, or neck. 250 00:13:34,441 --> 00:13:38,121 Speaker 4: We can be explained through those photos if they're there 251 00:13:38,201 --> 00:13:38,881 Speaker 4: or if they're not. 252 00:13:39,161 --> 00:13:44,001 Speaker 3: Why they're not providing them and giving us closure on. 253 00:13:44,001 --> 00:13:46,841 Speaker 4: That as parents is mind blowing. 254 00:13:46,921 --> 00:13:47,121 Speaker 5: Jay. 255 00:13:47,201 --> 00:13:50,881 Speaker 4: It's almost like a kick in the guts. And you know, 256 00:13:51,001 --> 00:13:52,481 Speaker 4: I just don't know why they. 257 00:13:52,321 --> 00:13:56,081 Speaker 3: Want to continue to hurt Jason and Amanda and Eden's 258 00:13:56,081 --> 00:13:56,961 Speaker 3: siblings and. 259 00:13:57,481 --> 00:13:58,201 Speaker 4: Not just us. 260 00:13:58,281 --> 00:14:01,281 Speaker 3: I can see by through the messages and now is 261 00:14:01,321 --> 00:14:04,401 Speaker 3: getting this is hurting lots of people. 262 00:14:05,761 --> 00:14:08,321 Speaker 4: Even's death has affected thousands of. 263 00:14:08,321 --> 00:14:11,161 Speaker 7: People, and the people that have heard your podcast, they're 264 00:14:11,241 --> 00:14:14,081 Speaker 7: just like they want answers and they're feeling for us 265 00:14:14,201 --> 00:14:20,041 Speaker 7: and they would hate this to happen to them. 266 00:14:20,241 --> 00:14:24,601 Speaker 2: Can I ask what the reasons for the rejection of 267 00:14:24,721 --> 00:14:28,641 Speaker 2: doctor Barron Collins is asked to see the autopsy photos? 268 00:14:29,081 --> 00:14:30,041 Speaker 2: Was there any reasoning? 269 00:14:31,001 --> 00:14:32,921 Speaker 1: There are none, You're just not getting them. 270 00:14:33,561 --> 00:14:36,681 Speaker 3: I believe it's something to do with because the cape 271 00:14:36,681 --> 00:14:41,641 Speaker 3: calase is closed and it's not in any open investigation, 272 00:14:41,841 --> 00:14:44,361 Speaker 3: so they hang on to them. However, as you know, 273 00:14:44,481 --> 00:14:49,521 Speaker 3: we've made several written applications for those autopsy photos. We 274 00:14:49,521 --> 00:14:53,321 Speaker 3: were even pretty much told and accepted for the all 275 00:14:53,361 --> 00:14:56,921 Speaker 3: that we had to sign a document and it never happened. 276 00:14:57,881 --> 00:15:02,041 Speaker 4: So they're saying one thing and doing another, and you think. 277 00:15:01,921 --> 00:15:05,881 Speaker 3: Truly to close this matter, give doctor Warren Collins the 278 00:15:05,961 --> 00:15:08,761 Speaker 3: autopsy photos and he's going to give afrimity. 279 00:15:09,321 --> 00:15:12,841 Speaker 1: Okay, Jason, if it's closed. If it's closed, and that's 280 00:15:12,881 --> 00:15:17,201 Speaker 1: the reason why we cannot see the autopsy photos. How 281 00:15:17,241 --> 00:15:19,081 Speaker 1: do you open it if you actually this is what 282 00:15:19,121 --> 00:15:21,521 Speaker 1: we want to see, so we can determine if it 283 00:15:21,601 --> 00:15:22,441 Speaker 1: is worthy to be. 284 00:15:22,441 --> 00:15:24,481 Speaker 4: Opened or not, or if it's an angle we need 285 00:15:24,521 --> 00:15:25,281 Speaker 4: to really work on. 286 00:15:27,881 --> 00:15:30,201 Speaker 2: Thanks to Jason and Amanda, we were able to reach 287 00:15:30,241 --> 00:15:32,841 Speaker 2: out to doctor Barron Collins and he was happy enough 288 00:15:32,881 --> 00:15:34,961 Speaker 2: to have a chat to us on the podcast. Now 289 00:15:35,041 --> 00:15:37,161 Speaker 2: it's important that we don't go into Eden's case, but 290 00:15:37,241 --> 00:15:39,761 Speaker 2: what we can do is get the general feeling of 291 00:15:39,841 --> 00:15:42,961 Speaker 2: what should be happening in a case like Eden Westbrooks. 292 00:15:43,241 --> 00:15:47,041 Speaker 5: My name is Richard Byron Collins. I'm a consultant forensic 293 00:15:47,081 --> 00:15:51,121 Speaker 5: pathologist in full time private practice and I have been 294 00:15:51,201 --> 00:15:57,201 Speaker 5: so since nineteen eighty five. I'm a qualified medical practitioner. 295 00:15:57,601 --> 00:16:01,321 Speaker 5: I have an additional degree of Bachelor of Medical Science Honors, 296 00:16:01,561 --> 00:16:05,961 Speaker 5: which is an undergraduate degree, and I'm a Fellow of 297 00:16:06,001 --> 00:16:10,841 Speaker 5: the Royal College Pathologists in nineteen seventy nine in Special 298 00:16:10,921 --> 00:16:14,361 Speaker 5: Forensic and so I have an extra training to be 299 00:16:14,521 --> 00:16:19,721 Speaker 5: a forensic pathologist. Well, a forensic pathologist is the person 300 00:16:19,761 --> 00:16:24,761 Speaker 5: who especially trained in the interpretation of injuries in relation 301 00:16:24,921 --> 00:16:28,521 Speaker 5: to the cause of death and the cause of death 302 00:16:28,601 --> 00:16:33,681 Speaker 5: in a general situation largely under the jurisdiction of the coroner. 303 00:16:33,801 --> 00:16:36,841 Speaker 5: So the day to day practice of a forensic pathologist, 304 00:16:36,961 --> 00:16:40,561 Speaker 5: which is slightly different from mine, is where a post 305 00:16:40,601 --> 00:16:44,961 Speaker 5: mortem examination would be done on a deceased individual at 306 00:16:44,961 --> 00:16:49,081 Speaker 5: the request of the coroner, and this examination may either 307 00:16:49,481 --> 00:16:53,881 Speaker 5: be only an external examination or a complete examination which 308 00:16:53,961 --> 00:16:58,361 Speaker 5: involves opening the three body cavities and examining all the 309 00:16:58,441 --> 00:17:03,401 Speaker 5: organs and the pathologist once all the appropriate investigations have 310 00:17:03,521 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 5: been carried out, would by the cause of death and 311 00:17:06,921 --> 00:17:12,281 Speaker 5: if there are injuries involved, then it is the prerogative 312 00:17:12,321 --> 00:17:18,801 Speaker 5: of the pathologist to identify, document and interpret the likely 313 00:17:18,921 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 5: mechanism of causation of those injuries in relation to death 314 00:17:23,681 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 5: or disability. Well, my role now being in private practice, 315 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 5: I don't routinely carry out post mortem examinations. My role 316 00:17:34,761 --> 00:17:38,921 Speaker 5: is really review of material that has been provided by 317 00:17:39,001 --> 00:17:43,001 Speaker 5: the forensic pathologists who's carried out the autopsy and all 318 00:17:43,041 --> 00:17:50,041 Speaker 5: the ancilary materials and any statements and diagrams and photographs 319 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,041 Speaker 5: in relation largely to a death, and then see whether 320 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 5: I agree or disagree with the cause of death as 321 00:17:58,241 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 5: stated in the autopsy report, and how if the person 322 00:18:02,481 --> 00:18:06,321 Speaker 5: has died, how the injuries occurred, and how they related 323 00:18:06,921 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 5: to the death. So I'm slightly different because I'm in 324 00:18:10,281 --> 00:18:15,001 Speaker 5: private practice, although I do have the opportunity to carry 325 00:18:15,001 --> 00:18:18,921 Speaker 5: out a post mortem examination. If it's required, say by 326 00:18:18,961 --> 00:18:24,481 Speaker 5: the relatives or an accused person, then I can do that, 327 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 5: but I don't physically work in an institution which does 328 00:18:28,761 --> 00:18:33,001 Speaker 5: day to day post mortem examinations. For the coroner. Mine 329 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:38,161 Speaker 5: is a review role, and I'm largely retained in our 330 00:18:38,241 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 5: society by the defense who are acting either for a 331 00:18:41,521 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 5: family or for an accused person, to review all the 332 00:18:46,521 --> 00:18:52,761 Speaker 5: materials prior to a committal hearing or a trial and 333 00:18:52,921 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 5: provide advice to the legal team on medical issues, which 334 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 5: may simply involve just explaining the complicated post mortem examination report. 335 00:19:05,761 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 5: And I will also give, if required, some comment in 336 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 5: relation to the cause of the injuries that might be 337 00:19:12,281 --> 00:19:15,961 Speaker 5: present and whether they are consistent with the accused story 338 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 5: or whether I agree wholeheartedly with what has been proposed 339 00:19:21,721 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 5: by the prosecution and sometimes I agree entirely with the 340 00:19:27,761 --> 00:19:32,161 Speaker 5: prosecution interpretation of the mechanisms of causation of the injuries, 341 00:19:32,961 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 5: and other times there may be an equally viable and 342 00:19:37,241 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 5: reasonable alternative explanation for injuries. 343 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,521 Speaker 2: Can you tell me why you're interested in the Westbrook matter? 344 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:50,521 Speaker 5: Well, I was retained indirectly by the family who were 345 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 5: concerned of the circumstances around the death of their daughter. 346 00:19:56,041 --> 00:19:59,961 Speaker 5: They were concerned at the investigation of the death and 347 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:03,561 Speaker 5: with the coronial findings. In other words, I think they 348 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 5: have another explanation for how Eden died and why she 349 00:20:09,481 --> 00:20:13,241 Speaker 5: died compared with what has been provided by the coroner. 350 00:20:13,801 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 5: And this is not an uncommon sign situation. I'm dealing 351 00:20:18,001 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 5: with a case in Queensland where the parents of a 352 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 5: young man who was found hanging firmly believe that he 353 00:20:26,001 --> 00:20:31,721 Speaker 5: was murdered rather than committed suicide. And there is some 354 00:20:31,761 --> 00:20:36,321 Speaker 5: evidence which I've discovered which points in the direction of 355 00:20:36,801 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 5: foul play in. 356 00:20:39,521 --> 00:20:42,641 Speaker 2: The case of Eden. What sort of things And we're 357 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,761 Speaker 2: not going to get into specifics of what you've seen, 358 00:20:45,001 --> 00:20:48,201 Speaker 2: as we've talked about, but in the case of Eden, 359 00:20:48,761 --> 00:20:53,521 Speaker 2: you request everything that the pathology has done, or do 360 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,201 Speaker 2: you request the whole file. What are you looking for? 361 00:20:57,961 --> 00:21:00,801 Speaker 5: It's the same in most matters that I'm asked to 362 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 5: comment on. I request the whole file. The amount of 363 00:21:06,201 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 5: material varies from case to case, and it may only 364 00:21:09,201 --> 00:21:13,001 Speaker 5: be a couple of one hundred pages, two a couple 365 00:21:13,001 --> 00:21:16,801 Speaker 5: of thousand pages, particularly if somebody has been admitted to 366 00:21:17,481 --> 00:21:22,281 Speaker 5: the hospital for treatment following sustaining injuries and then dies. 367 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,561 Speaker 5: Because I like to have everything available for me to assess, 368 00:21:28,281 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 5: because the legal team that may well instruct me often 369 00:21:33,201 --> 00:21:37,521 Speaker 5: have don't understand the significance of some statements and some 370 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 5: comments in some statements which means something to me but 371 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,241 Speaker 5: may not mean anything to them, and so I try 372 00:21:44,281 --> 00:21:47,241 Speaker 5: and get as much material as is possible. There are 373 00:21:47,281 --> 00:21:51,881 Speaker 5: some lawyers who think that if they provide opinions from 374 00:21:51,921 --> 00:21:56,121 Speaker 5: other experts to me and all the material, that it's 375 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,281 Speaker 5: a waste of time and it may in fact color 376 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:03,841 Speaker 5: my thought process. That's quite erroneous, because I'm employed as 377 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 5: an independent expert, and my findings are what I believe 378 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,761 Speaker 5: and what I would be prepared to substantiate or testify 379 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,601 Speaker 5: and give evidence to in court, and so I make 380 00:22:16,681 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 5: up my own mind. But I like to be able 381 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 5: to make up my own mind with the benefit of 382 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,761 Speaker 5: as much material as possible. And so what that might 383 00:22:25,921 --> 00:22:31,041 Speaker 5: mean usually is the statement of facts in relation to death. 384 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,441 Speaker 5: So we're dealing with and any reliable witnesses or relevant witnesses, 385 00:22:35,481 --> 00:22:38,241 Speaker 5: I should say, It's not for me to determine whether 386 00:22:38,241 --> 00:22:41,281 Speaker 5: they're reliable or not. That's the court's job. And then 387 00:22:41,321 --> 00:22:45,041 Speaker 5: any medical records which might have some information relevant to 388 00:22:45,721 --> 00:22:51,041 Speaker 5: the cause, not only the written documentation, but I like 389 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 5: to see the appropriate photographs or relevant photographs, and any 390 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,241 Speaker 5: light microscope slides which have been prepared from small samples 391 00:23:01,281 --> 00:23:05,521 Speaker 5: of tissues retained at the autopsy of the major organs 392 00:23:06,321 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 5: say that I can examine them under the microscope and 393 00:23:09,681 --> 00:23:13,201 Speaker 5: see whether I agree or disagree with the findings of 394 00:23:13,241 --> 00:23:16,201 Speaker 5: the pathologists who did the original autopsy. 395 00:23:16,521 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: And so, in the case of in Westbrook, did you 396 00:23:18,801 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 2: were you able to obtain the whole file from the coroner? 397 00:23:23,041 --> 00:23:25,521 Speaker 5: As I understand it, I was able to obtain the 398 00:23:25,561 --> 00:23:30,761 Speaker 5: whole file, including the post mortem examination report, but not 399 00:23:30,961 --> 00:23:35,761 Speaker 5: the microscope slides or the photographs taken during the post 400 00:23:35,801 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 5: mortem examination. 401 00:23:37,801 --> 00:23:41,361 Speaker 2: So you weren't able to get the photos. But were 402 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: they refused or did they not have them. 403 00:23:44,001 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 5: My understanding is that they are available or present in 404 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 5: the complete file, but they were not provided to me, 405 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,241 Speaker 5: which causes me great concern, just in the general sense, 406 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:06,001 Speaker 5: because any photographs speak a thousand words, and they are 407 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:11,561 Speaker 5: very In fact, they are essential and integral to a 408 00:24:11,721 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 5: post mortem examination. They formed part of the autopsic report, 409 00:24:15,761 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 5: although they're not written words. They're photographs. But what they 410 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,801 Speaker 5: do do is they assist in the interpretation of an 411 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:28,681 Speaker 5: injury and the identification of the injury. And it may 412 00:24:28,761 --> 00:24:34,041 Speaker 5: be that there are injuries present on the deceased that 413 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 5: haven't been described or have been incorrectly described in the 414 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:44,481 Speaker 5: autopsio report, and if one has the photographs for reference, 415 00:24:45,041 --> 00:24:47,001 Speaker 5: these sorts of problems can be sorted out. 416 00:24:48,961 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 2: Jason and Amanda talked on the podcast around their daughters 417 00:24:54,761 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 2: and what they saw when they went to apply makeup 418 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,041 Speaker 2: to Eden when she was deceased, and their allegations around 419 00:25:01,041 --> 00:25:03,801 Speaker 2: that she had broken or chipped teeth and some bruising 420 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,201 Speaker 2: around the face. Those sorts of things would be evident 421 00:25:07,281 --> 00:25:09,961 Speaker 2: in I'm guessing in the photographs if you were able 422 00:25:10,001 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 2: to see them, one would hope. 423 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:16,801 Speaker 5: So it depends on the quality of the photograph, and 424 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 5: I must say they're usually pretty good quality photographs done 425 00:25:21,281 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 5: during the post mortem examination. But yes, everything that is 426 00:25:24,681 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 5: present on the body should be identifiable, just in the 427 00:25:29,441 --> 00:25:32,601 Speaker 5: general sense, and I'm speaking in general terms and not 428 00:25:32,681 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 5: specifically relating to the Westbrook matter. So if the appropriate 429 00:25:39,961 --> 00:25:43,041 Speaker 5: photographs have been taken, then I should be able to 430 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 5: identify everything that's present on the deceased individual. 431 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:53,881 Speaker 2: You've been doing this for quite some time, almost fifty years. 432 00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:58,241 Speaker 2: Is it unusual, yes, for a coroner to not provide 433 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: the photographs if they have them in an instance like 434 00:26:02,441 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: in Westbrooks. 435 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 5: Case, in my opinion or sorry, in my experience, and 436 00:26:08,201 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 5: you're quite right at this almost fifty years, I have 437 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 5: never faced this problem before, and I'm astounded that it 438 00:26:17,561 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 5: has occurred, and it beggars belief that it has occurred, 439 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:27,121 Speaker 5: because I understand that the photographs are very sensitive and 440 00:26:27,201 --> 00:26:32,481 Speaker 5: can be very disconcerting and upsetting to people who may 441 00:26:32,961 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 5: view them, either with or without permission, or in other words, 442 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,841 Speaker 5: whether they should be viewing them or not. But as 443 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 5: far as I'm concerned, as a consultant forensic pathologist who's 444 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 5: been retained in this case or any other case, and 445 00:26:48,961 --> 00:26:52,681 Speaker 5: it's the same for every case with the appropriate training 446 00:26:52,961 --> 00:26:57,041 Speaker 5: or even more training than the individual who they have 447 00:26:57,201 --> 00:27:01,561 Speaker 5: carried out the post mortem examination. Then I fail to 448 00:27:01,681 --> 00:27:07,481 Speaker 5: understand the reasoning behind any refusal, and it's not occurred 449 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:13,321 Speaker 5: in any request that I've made ever over my career. 450 00:27:14,441 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 5: And as I said before, they form part of the 451 00:27:17,201 --> 00:27:24,521 Speaker 5: post mortem examination. They're not just an addendum. They're there 452 00:27:24,561 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 5: as the autopsy record, as are the histology slides and 453 00:27:29,801 --> 00:27:37,041 Speaker 5: any other investigations such as toxicology, which are always made available. Now, 454 00:27:38,561 --> 00:27:43,481 Speaker 5: each state differs in their requirements as to what hurdles 455 00:27:43,481 --> 00:27:47,921 Speaker 5: one has to jump in order to obtain materials, including photographs, 456 00:27:48,521 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 5: but it is always the karner has the authority to 457 00:27:53,041 --> 00:27:57,761 Speaker 5: release or not release any particular item in relation to 458 00:27:57,801 --> 00:27:59,281 Speaker 5: the investigation. 459 00:27:58,681 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 4: Of the death. 460 00:28:00,001 --> 00:28:04,041 Speaker 5: But I've never not been able to obtain the photographs, 461 00:28:05,281 --> 00:28:07,681 Speaker 5: although sometimes it's been somewhat difficult. 462 00:28:07,961 --> 00:28:10,801 Speaker 2: What would be a reason that they wouldn't release those 463 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,961 Speaker 2: photographs to you a medical professional, that we're not talking 464 00:28:13,961 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: about Jason and Amanda wanting to see them. They've stated 465 00:28:16,561 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: that they don't. But for you, as a medical professional, 466 00:28:18,921 --> 00:28:21,481 Speaker 2: what would be a possible reason they wouldn't release them? 467 00:28:21,921 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 5: I suppose There are a number of reasons, but the 468 00:28:24,241 --> 00:28:28,161 Speaker 5: first one that comes to mind is that the coroner 469 00:28:29,201 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 5: or any coroner in his or her wisdom who refuses 470 00:28:33,721 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 5: such a request may not appreciate the significance of the 471 00:28:41,761 --> 00:28:46,601 Speaker 5: photographs in relation to interpretation of a post mortem examination report. 472 00:28:49,681 --> 00:28:52,921 Speaker 2: Does that essentially mean that you're a little hamstrung now, 473 00:28:53,241 --> 00:28:57,521 Speaker 2: given that you've got almost a completed file from the coroner, 474 00:28:57,561 --> 00:29:00,361 Speaker 2: but with one vital thing missing. 475 00:29:00,961 --> 00:29:04,601 Speaker 5: I'm not a little hamdstung. I'm totally handstrung and totally 476 00:29:04,721 --> 00:29:11,081 Speaker 5: thrust because I can't provide a complete review of the 477 00:29:11,121 --> 00:29:16,841 Speaker 5: circumstances in this particular case, in the Westbrook case, and 478 00:29:16,881 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 5: as would be the same in any other case, and 479 00:29:20,761 --> 00:29:26,001 Speaker 5: so I can't correlate what the autopsy findings are with 480 00:29:26,361 --> 00:29:31,121 Speaker 5: the post mortem report and the photographs. While I may 481 00:29:31,201 --> 00:29:35,241 Speaker 5: not have a question as to the cause of death, 482 00:29:36,521 --> 00:29:42,161 Speaker 5: the circumstances surrounding the death, I can't properly assess because 483 00:29:42,201 --> 00:29:46,881 Speaker 5: of the absence of the photographs another investigation which I 484 00:29:46,921 --> 00:29:50,521 Speaker 5: would normally do, and this we haven't progressed down this 485 00:29:50,641 --> 00:29:55,361 Speaker 5: track at the moment. With the Tasmanian karna. Commonly, for example, 486 00:29:55,401 --> 00:29:59,321 Speaker 5: in a case where there's been a homicide, I would 487 00:29:59,361 --> 00:30:05,161 Speaker 5: review all the materials, and then if the instructing solicitors 488 00:30:06,681 --> 00:30:09,241 Speaker 5: we're happy that I do so, then I would speak 489 00:30:09,281 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 5: directly with the pathologist who carried out the autopsy in 490 00:30:13,561 --> 00:30:16,641 Speaker 5: order perhaps to clarify some issues in relation to the 491 00:30:16,641 --> 00:30:23,161 Speaker 5: autopsy report. So that's another avenue of investigation in the 492 00:30:23,561 --> 00:30:27,881 Speaker 5: Westbrook case, which hasn't been pursued at the present time. 493 00:30:29,721 --> 00:30:32,481 Speaker 2: Is there any way that you can appeal the decision 494 00:30:32,601 --> 00:30:34,721 Speaker 2: from the currenter not to release those findings. 495 00:30:35,281 --> 00:30:40,361 Speaker 5: No, there isn't, And I think part of the currenter's 496 00:30:41,201 --> 00:30:46,281 Speaker 5: problem in this particular case, apart from perhaps not appreciating 497 00:30:46,321 --> 00:30:50,241 Speaker 5: the significance of not providing the findings as far as 498 00:30:50,281 --> 00:30:56,641 Speaker 5: the investigation goes, is that I'm not directly involved in 499 00:30:56,681 --> 00:30:59,881 Speaker 5: the case, one could argue, and I'm not a relative, 500 00:31:00,601 --> 00:31:05,161 Speaker 5: and so there are strict rules around the provision of 501 00:31:05,161 --> 00:31:08,841 Speaker 5: of materials. But as I said before, I think because 502 00:31:08,881 --> 00:31:12,961 Speaker 5: I've been asked by the family, particularly to investigate the death, 503 00:31:13,601 --> 00:31:18,881 Speaker 5: it seems to me somewhat incongruous that I haven't been 504 00:31:18,921 --> 00:31:20,321 Speaker 5: provided with photographs