1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:16,201 Speaker 1: Apote Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm 2 00:00:16,241 --> 00:00:19,881 Speaker 1: your host Adam Shann my guest today. Alex Christick was 3 00:00:19,881 --> 00:00:22,361 Speaker 1: a police officer in one of the most violent eras 4 00:00:22,401 --> 00:00:26,561 Speaker 1: in Victoria's history. Two young police officers have been gunned 5 00:00:26,601 --> 00:00:29,881 Speaker 1: down in South Yarra. A string of underworld murders has 6 00:00:29,961 --> 00:00:33,961 Speaker 1: left more than forty people dead across Melbourne. During his 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: time in the force, Victoria police shot and killed almost 8 00:00:36,481 --> 00:00:40,481 Speaker 1: fifty people. Many had recorded histories of mental health problems, 9 00:00:40,961 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: but there are also some very evil individuals amongst them 10 00:00:44,161 --> 00:00:47,161 Speaker 1: that wished harm on police or members of the public. 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,321 Speaker 1: Melbourne's deadly gangland feud shows no sign of slowing as 12 00:00:51,361 --> 00:00:56,201 Speaker 1: the city reels from yet another execution style murder. Alex 13 00:00:56,321 --> 00:00:59,241 Speaker 1: was involved in manhunt's for some very willing crooks who 14 00:00:59,281 --> 00:01:02,041 Speaker 1: were perfectly happy to shoot it out with police to 15 00:01:02,321 --> 00:01:06,641 Speaker 1: the death, and he also taught firearms operational survival. It 16 00:01:06,761 --> 00:01:09,761 Speaker 1: was a war between the cops and the crooks. Police 17 00:01:09,801 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: are to night combing bushland for an armed fugitive after 18 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,041 Speaker 1: a dramatic shootout. His career also spanned the gangland War 19 00:01:17,081 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: in Victoria, when up to forty crooks were gunned down 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,801 Speaker 1: in the streets. It was a torrid period. But when 21 00:01:23,801 --> 00:01:28,241 Speaker 1: look what's happening today, the past seems almost quaint and orderly. 22 00:01:28,721 --> 00:01:31,121 Speaker 1: The crooks in Sydney and Melbourne seem to have lost 23 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: their fear of police or indeed the courts and jail. 24 00:01:34,881 --> 00:01:38,401 Speaker 1: Where once violence was contained within the underworld, Today members 25 00:01:38,401 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: of the public run a real risk of getting caught 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: in the crossfire or indeed being targeted. 27 00:01:44,481 --> 00:01:45,481 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show, Alex. 28 00:01:45,881 --> 00:01:48,241 Speaker 1: I never thought i'd call your era, which I was 29 00:01:48,281 --> 00:01:50,081 Speaker 1: a part of, the good old days. 30 00:01:50,401 --> 00:01:52,841 Speaker 2: But I think it's a fair statement, don't you think, Well, they. 31 00:01:52,761 --> 00:01:56,001 Speaker 3: Were the good old days, old being the operative word there, 32 00:01:56,041 --> 00:01:56,761 Speaker 3: for sure. 33 00:01:57,161 --> 00:01:59,081 Speaker 4: It's a long time ago now, it. 34 00:01:58,961 --> 00:02:00,361 Speaker 1: Is, but it was a war back then, and you 35 00:02:00,401 --> 00:02:02,201 Speaker 1: were in the middle of it at times on the fringes. 36 00:02:02,241 --> 00:02:06,081 Speaker 1: You were teaching Victoria police to survive in a very 37 00:02:06,441 --> 00:02:07,201 Speaker 1: torrid era. 38 00:02:07,801 --> 00:02:10,601 Speaker 3: Look, I spent most of my career at the point end, 39 00:02:10,721 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 3: you know, actually out there catching bad guys. It mainly 40 00:02:13,841 --> 00:02:16,721 Speaker 3: as a detective or as an investigator, but at times 41 00:02:16,721 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: I was an instructor at the firearms and operational survival 42 00:02:19,841 --> 00:02:23,401 Speaker 3: training in it and at detective training school. So in 43 00:02:23,441 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: both those roles. I did train police in those tactics, 44 00:02:27,561 --> 00:02:27,961 Speaker 3: et cetera. 45 00:02:28,561 --> 00:02:32,321 Speaker 1: And that era spanned things like Wall Street, the murder 46 00:02:32,361 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: of two police officers in nineteen eighty eight, the manhunt 47 00:02:35,641 --> 00:02:38,801 Speaker 1: for Mad Max in nineteen eighty six, and a range 48 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,321 Speaker 1: of other deranged individuals who were posing a real threat 49 00:02:43,361 --> 00:02:45,641 Speaker 1: to police officers. What were you trying to teach them 50 00:02:45,641 --> 00:02:49,161 Speaker 1: back then? What was it like being on the front line. 51 00:02:49,361 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: Back in the eighties. I suppose the context would be mainly, say, 52 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,561 Speaker 3: when I worked as an inner suburban detective and as 53 00:02:55,601 --> 00:02:58,441 Speaker 3: a detective in the major crime squad. You know, as 54 00:02:58,481 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 3: a young detective, I cut my teeth in places like. 55 00:03:01,161 --> 00:03:03,201 Speaker 4: Fitzroy and Richmond and St. 56 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,561 Speaker 3: Kildare and places like that, where those places weren't like 57 00:03:06,601 --> 00:03:10,081 Speaker 3: they are now. They're sort of all bohemian and touchy 58 00:03:10,121 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 3: feeling now. Back in those days they were very, very 59 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,281 Speaker 3: violent places like I've seen more murder victims along Gertrude 60 00:03:18,321 --> 00:03:20,721 Speaker 3: Street and through that most people have set in their life, 61 00:03:20,841 --> 00:03:24,321 Speaker 3: you know, they're the sort of things that we're involved in. 62 00:03:24,361 --> 00:03:28,681 Speaker 3: And armed Roberts, violent crime, heroin had started becoming a 63 00:03:28,761 --> 00:03:30,881 Speaker 3: major issue, and all of that stuff. When it was 64 00:03:30,921 --> 00:03:35,481 Speaker 3: sort of thrown into that amalgam created that sort of vibe, 65 00:03:35,801 --> 00:03:39,161 Speaker 3: and you know, you could almost guarantee every Friday or 66 00:03:39,561 --> 00:03:42,481 Speaker 3: every payday there'd be a stick up somewhere along the line. 67 00:03:42,841 --> 00:03:45,961 Speaker 3: As a detective in the major crime squad, escapes from 68 00:03:46,041 --> 00:03:50,001 Speaker 3: prisons were not uncommon, like places like Jaker Jiker. You 69 00:03:50,081 --> 00:03:52,721 Speaker 3: never hear of it now, but if people take the 70 00:03:52,761 --> 00:03:56,201 Speaker 3: time to acquaint themselves with what Jaker Jiker was, it 71 00:03:56,361 --> 00:04:00,681 Speaker 3: was a maximum security prison within a prison, and it 72 00:04:00,801 --> 00:04:04,041 Speaker 3: was a very violent place, and very violent people. 73 00:04:03,761 --> 00:04:04,841 Speaker 4: Were put there. 74 00:04:04,601 --> 00:04:08,761 Speaker 3: The gate from there they died there one fire where 75 00:04:09,121 --> 00:04:12,521 Speaker 3: some very infamous murderers died as a result of lighting 76 00:04:12,561 --> 00:04:15,561 Speaker 3: the fire, and Jaker Jiker that was pulled down because 77 00:04:15,961 --> 00:04:18,561 Speaker 3: I think they it wasn't politically palatable. 78 00:04:18,601 --> 00:04:21,241 Speaker 2: I don't, well, that's right, because they'd come out of 79 00:04:21,521 --> 00:04:21,961 Speaker 2: H Division. 80 00:04:22,001 --> 00:04:24,921 Speaker 1: A lot of those sort of recalcitrant crooks, very dangerous crooks, 81 00:04:24,961 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: had been housed in H Division, the punishment division at Pentridge, 82 00:04:28,961 --> 00:04:31,121 Speaker 1: and there was a couple of inquiries where it was 83 00:04:31,281 --> 00:04:33,761 Speaker 1: it was decided that H Division was like a medieval 84 00:04:33,801 --> 00:04:35,161 Speaker 1: torture chamber, so they. 85 00:04:35,081 --> 00:04:36,081 Speaker 2: Built Jaiker Jiker. 86 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,001 Speaker 1: But the result was the same this dehumanization of crooks 87 00:04:40,081 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: within Pentridge. People went in there as bicycle thieves, came 88 00:04:44,481 --> 00:04:46,241 Speaker 1: out as penous murderers. 89 00:04:46,681 --> 00:04:48,961 Speaker 3: Well, you know, the good old B Division was where 90 00:04:49,001 --> 00:04:50,801 Speaker 3: they all sort of started off. Then they went to 91 00:04:50,961 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 3: H Division if they are really bad guys, which you 92 00:04:53,201 --> 00:04:56,721 Speaker 3: quite correctly say was probably medieval. And then they went 93 00:04:56,761 --> 00:05:00,361 Speaker 3: to Jaiker Jiker, which made H Division look like a kindergarten. 94 00:05:00,921 --> 00:05:02,641 Speaker 1: Well, it was kind of like a spaceship, wasn't it. 95 00:05:02,641 --> 00:05:04,841 Speaker 1: They were so isolated from reality and it was all 96 00:05:05,521 --> 00:05:06,921 Speaker 1: but it sent them a bit mad. 97 00:05:07,601 --> 00:05:10,281 Speaker 3: Well, it sent them a lot mad. These guys were 98 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,201 Speaker 3: the worst of the worst. Yeah, Blokes like Robert Wright, 99 00:05:13,241 --> 00:05:18,801 Speaker 3: he's dead. Robert Lindsay right, a murderer, absolute psychopath, killed 100 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,281 Speaker 3: people because he thought it was a good idea, zero empathy, 101 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,681 Speaker 3: you know. He killed the prostitute and a child over 102 00:05:26,721 --> 00:05:28,921 Speaker 3: at Rip and Lee and shot them to death because 103 00:05:29,161 --> 00:05:31,401 Speaker 3: she may have been able to give evidence against him 104 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,641 Speaker 3: in certain cases. Him and a guy called Quinn murdering 105 00:05:34,681 --> 00:05:37,201 Speaker 3: another price Ry Quinn at a big Pat's Creek. 106 00:05:37,041 --> 00:05:37,921 Speaker 4: At Wolburton Way. 107 00:05:37,921 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: There brutal murders, these guys, Yeah, the sort of people 108 00:05:42,801 --> 00:05:44,921 Speaker 3: you don't want wondering around in a public. 109 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,281 Speaker 1: But the fact was they were coming back into the 110 00:05:47,281 --> 00:05:49,481 Speaker 1: public and people like you had to deal with them. 111 00:05:50,081 --> 00:05:53,041 Speaker 1: What was the attitude like being a copper on the 112 00:05:53,041 --> 00:05:55,561 Speaker 1: front line back in those days, when you had people 113 00:05:55,601 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: who were bold and they were willing and they would 114 00:05:57,801 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: shoot back, there wasn't a lot of fear. 115 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 3: Well, look, well acutely aware of all that, there's no 116 00:06:03,281 --> 00:06:06,081 Speaker 3: problem at all. But at the same time, organization. When 117 00:06:06,081 --> 00:06:07,721 Speaker 3: I say that, I mean the police force was a 118 00:06:07,761 --> 00:06:10,761 Speaker 3: different police force. It's nothing like it is now. It's 119 00:06:10,761 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: a different planet now. Back in the day, we knew 120 00:06:14,521 --> 00:06:18,361 Speaker 3: that we had the support of our commanders. They seemed 121 00:06:18,361 --> 00:06:20,441 Speaker 3: to you out there to catch bad guys that were 122 00:06:20,601 --> 00:06:24,721 Speaker 3: killing people, that were robbing banks, that were escaping from 123 00:06:24,761 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 3: prison and taking hostages and posing a threat to the public. 124 00:06:29,161 --> 00:06:32,161 Speaker 3: So we were given a fair bit of license to 125 00:06:32,201 --> 00:06:35,481 Speaker 3: shake the true fairly hard to catch these blokes, and 126 00:06:35,721 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: I think the public were more accepting of different methods 127 00:06:39,521 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 3: should we say. 128 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:42,721 Speaker 1: I've got to tell you that I think there's a 129 00:06:42,761 --> 00:06:45,441 Speaker 1: popular view these days that a few more of these 130 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,121 Speaker 1: crooks needs shooting, that it's not the worst thing in 131 00:06:48,121 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: the world that a few are taken off the streets. 132 00:06:50,601 --> 00:06:53,921 Speaker 1: I know it's not palatable to the humanists and the liberals, 133 00:06:54,401 --> 00:06:56,481 Speaker 1: but when you see the level of crime out there 134 00:06:56,521 --> 00:06:58,921 Speaker 1: and the lack of fear alex that seems to be 135 00:06:59,001 --> 00:07:01,321 Speaker 1: there in the streets these days. I certainly in your 136 00:07:01,361 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: era the idea was to put the fear of God 137 00:07:04,241 --> 00:07:07,721 Speaker 1: into them. We share a mentor Brian Francis Murphy the Skull, 138 00:07:08,121 --> 00:07:10,881 Speaker 1: who his policing career went from the early fifties through 139 00:07:10,921 --> 00:07:13,481 Speaker 1: the late eighties. And I asked him once how many 140 00:07:13,481 --> 00:07:16,961 Speaker 1: times did you shoot? Somebody said, ah, forty or fifty. 141 00:07:17,081 --> 00:07:20,041 Speaker 1: I said, what, I couldn't believe it. Imagine the career 142 00:07:20,121 --> 00:07:22,321 Speaker 1: like that today. And that's the sort of attitude people 143 00:07:22,361 --> 00:07:24,921 Speaker 1: had back in the day to putting fear into the crooks. 144 00:07:25,201 --> 00:07:27,281 Speaker 1: What were some of the lessons you learned early on 145 00:07:27,601 --> 00:07:31,481 Speaker 1: about your authority, the use of the firearm, and the 146 00:07:31,601 --> 00:07:33,361 Speaker 1: limit of what you could do. 147 00:07:34,441 --> 00:07:37,201 Speaker 3: Look, you learned a lot about human behavior and how 148 00:07:37,241 --> 00:07:41,801 Speaker 3: to get results using certain techniques and tactics. Those things 149 00:07:41,801 --> 00:07:46,401 Speaker 3: have changed significantly these days. The villains they don't particularly 150 00:07:46,401 --> 00:07:49,321 Speaker 3: fear the police because they know that the police are 151 00:07:49,321 --> 00:07:52,121 Speaker 3: bound by the rules. They don't fear the courts. They 152 00:07:52,121 --> 00:07:55,281 Speaker 3: don't fear being sentenced to jail, as is reflected. And 153 00:07:55,321 --> 00:07:57,841 Speaker 3: if you look at the newspaper, these people are running 154 00:07:57,841 --> 00:08:01,441 Speaker 3: around robbing people, cutting people's heads off, stabbing them to 155 00:08:01,481 --> 00:08:04,801 Speaker 3: death in the street, mutilating them. They're getting hit on 156 00:08:04,841 --> 00:08:08,521 Speaker 3: by and it's a daily event. Back in the day 157 00:08:08,561 --> 00:08:10,481 Speaker 3: when we were doing things, if a person did something 158 00:08:10,561 --> 00:08:12,881 Speaker 3: like that and he was apprehended by the police, he 159 00:08:12,921 --> 00:08:16,761 Speaker 3: would have an extremely difficult time getting out on bail. 160 00:08:17,241 --> 00:08:20,121 Speaker 3: The bail laws were different. And the recent changes in 161 00:08:20,161 --> 00:08:21,801 Speaker 3: the bail laws. When I say recent, i'm talking in 162 00:08:21,801 --> 00:08:25,081 Speaker 3: the last few years. These too good to lefty lawyers 163 00:08:25,081 --> 00:08:28,121 Speaker 3: in a lot of cases of the lawmakers and they 164 00:08:28,161 --> 00:08:31,481 Speaker 3: think the rights of the villains outweighed the safety of 165 00:08:31,521 --> 00:08:34,561 Speaker 3: the public. That wasn't the case back in the day, 166 00:08:34,841 --> 00:08:38,561 Speaker 3: you know. And as far as crooks or criminals, violent 167 00:08:38,601 --> 00:08:40,881 Speaker 3: criminals being frightened to the police, that's a thing of 168 00:08:40,921 --> 00:08:44,401 Speaker 3: the past. They're ramming police cars on a daily basis, 169 00:08:44,761 --> 00:08:46,681 Speaker 3: you know, they're trying to run over police. It's like 170 00:08:46,721 --> 00:08:49,001 Speaker 3: a video game to them. Back in the day, if 171 00:08:49,041 --> 00:08:50,841 Speaker 3: you decided you wanted to ram a police car as 172 00:08:50,841 --> 00:08:53,441 Speaker 3: a villain, you pretty well signed your own death warrant. 173 00:08:54,041 --> 00:08:57,161 Speaker 3: A vehicle is every bit as deadly a weapon as 174 00:08:57,281 --> 00:08:59,721 Speaker 3: a handgun or a rifle or as a shotgun is. 175 00:09:00,361 --> 00:09:02,641 Speaker 3: So if somebody chooses they want to run over a 176 00:09:02,641 --> 00:09:05,601 Speaker 3: policeman or smash into a police car, in my view, 177 00:09:06,201 --> 00:09:08,561 Speaker 3: any force that's used in order to stop that from 178 00:09:08,601 --> 00:09:10,761 Speaker 3: occurring is not an unreasonable. 179 00:09:10,201 --> 00:09:10,921 Speaker 4: Level of force. 180 00:09:11,121 --> 00:09:11,801 Speaker 2: It's gun day. 181 00:09:12,001 --> 00:09:15,441 Speaker 3: It's definitely a gun day, that's for sure. So they're 182 00:09:15,481 --> 00:09:18,441 Speaker 3: not frightening the coppers, they're not frightened of the courts. 183 00:09:18,681 --> 00:09:21,281 Speaker 3: So there's only one group of people that they can 184 00:09:21,321 --> 00:09:24,081 Speaker 3: be frightened of, and that's the public, including other villains. 185 00:09:24,081 --> 00:09:26,761 Speaker 3: But they should be frightened of the public. They wander 186 00:09:26,801 --> 00:09:30,121 Speaker 3: into people's houses, wantonly in their arm with edged weapons, 187 00:09:30,681 --> 00:09:35,721 Speaker 3: robbing them, indecently, assaulting them, raping them, and they know 188 00:09:35,801 --> 00:09:38,321 Speaker 3: they do it with relative impunity, especially if they're under 189 00:09:38,321 --> 00:09:39,481 Speaker 3: the age of our ten years. 190 00:09:40,161 --> 00:09:41,721 Speaker 4: Things are going to change. 191 00:09:42,001 --> 00:09:43,281 Speaker 2: Do you think they can change? 192 00:09:43,441 --> 00:09:44,521 Speaker 4: Of course they can change. 193 00:09:44,561 --> 00:09:47,161 Speaker 3: What can be done now, Well, firstly, there needs to 194 00:09:47,161 --> 00:09:49,161 Speaker 3: be some sort of push it from the public. They're 195 00:09:49,161 --> 00:09:51,161 Speaker 3: going to say enough's enough, We've drawn the line in 196 00:09:51,201 --> 00:09:53,401 Speaker 3: the sand. This cannot continue to go on. 197 00:09:53,841 --> 00:09:54,521 Speaker 4: And then the. 198 00:09:54,401 --> 00:09:59,041 Speaker 3: Government really has to have the sand to say, Okay, 199 00:09:59,201 --> 00:10:03,241 Speaker 3: enough is enough. Civil liberties are fine, and we all 200 00:10:03,401 --> 00:10:05,841 Speaker 3: live in a beautiful free country and we've all got 201 00:10:06,001 --> 00:10:09,481 Speaker 3: We enjoy good civil liberties, but not at the expense 202 00:10:10,161 --> 00:10:13,721 Speaker 3: of people being frightened to leave their houses, frightened to 203 00:10:13,721 --> 00:10:16,401 Speaker 3: send their children into the city, frightened to go out 204 00:10:16,401 --> 00:10:18,841 Speaker 3: to a shopping set of women are frightened to drive 205 00:10:18,881 --> 00:10:20,401 Speaker 3: their car down the road and pull up at a 206 00:10:20,481 --> 00:10:22,641 Speaker 3: light for fear of somebody coming along and dragging them 207 00:10:22,641 --> 00:10:23,801 Speaker 3: out of the car and robbing them. 208 00:10:24,121 --> 00:10:27,921 Speaker 4: This is what's happening in Melbourne and Sydney and Sydney. 209 00:10:28,001 --> 00:10:30,721 Speaker 3: But my knowledge of Sydney isn't as in depth as 210 00:10:30,721 --> 00:10:33,401 Speaker 3: it is here in Melbourne. And I'm sure that any 211 00:10:33,441 --> 00:10:36,001 Speaker 3: of the major capital cities in the world things aren't 212 00:10:36,001 --> 00:10:39,441 Speaker 3: that different. But the villains have got Sooner or later 213 00:10:39,841 --> 00:10:42,561 Speaker 3: the wheel will turn and we will reach critical mass 214 00:10:43,201 --> 00:10:46,521 Speaker 3: and people will say other enough, I will do whatever 215 00:10:46,561 --> 00:10:48,681 Speaker 3: it takes to defend myself and my family. 216 00:10:49,721 --> 00:10:52,401 Speaker 1: Is it about putting fear back into the crooks? 217 00:10:52,561 --> 00:10:55,601 Speaker 3: Well, I think fear is probably a for want of 218 00:10:55,641 --> 00:10:58,121 Speaker 3: a better term, it's probably not bad. It's good Old 219 00:10:58,121 --> 00:11:02,121 Speaker 3: operant conditioning. You know, if they choose to conduct themselves 220 00:11:02,121 --> 00:11:04,721 Speaker 3: in a certain wad, there has to be some sort 221 00:11:04,761 --> 00:11:05,721 Speaker 3: of percussions. 222 00:11:05,721 --> 00:11:08,201 Speaker 2: The courts, in my view, have lost. 223 00:11:07,961 --> 00:11:11,241 Speaker 3: Their ability to be able to just dissuade these people 224 00:11:11,241 --> 00:11:14,441 Speaker 3: from committing these offenses. They obviously put them in front 225 00:11:14,481 --> 00:11:17,561 Speaker 3: of the public. But okay, remember magistrates back in the day, 226 00:11:17,561 --> 00:11:20,801 Speaker 3: if you choose to assault the police, you will guaranteed 227 00:11:21,161 --> 00:11:25,001 Speaker 3: a stretch in jail, No problem at all. Now it's 228 00:11:25,041 --> 00:11:27,881 Speaker 3: a mass mandatory. You hit the coppers. He gives us stuff. 229 00:11:28,121 --> 00:11:30,281 Speaker 3: They bring in all these laws and say, oh you know, 230 00:11:30,601 --> 00:11:32,281 Speaker 3: if you are soul, I remember the police force, you'll 231 00:11:32,281 --> 00:11:36,081 Speaker 3: get a minimum of six months jail. That is utter rubbish. 232 00:11:36,161 --> 00:11:41,041 Speaker 3: It doesn't happen so really, Sooner or later the government 233 00:11:41,121 --> 00:11:44,641 Speaker 3: have got the power to be able to create a 234 00:11:44,681 --> 00:11:48,521 Speaker 3: situation where there is going to be a real terrant. 235 00:11:48,801 --> 00:11:51,321 Speaker 3: So the people that are appointing these magistrates was the 236 00:11:51,361 --> 00:11:55,281 Speaker 3: Attorney General and the other senior government officials, which in 237 00:11:55,361 --> 00:11:58,441 Speaker 3: Victoria in most cases hate the coppers anyway, are the 238 00:11:58,481 --> 00:12:01,121 Speaker 3: ones that have got the power to do it. They 239 00:12:01,201 --> 00:12:03,721 Speaker 3: choose not to, sooner or later the public will force 240 00:12:03,721 --> 00:12:06,161 Speaker 3: them to do it, Like I hate. 241 00:12:06,001 --> 00:12:07,561 Speaker 1: Politics and I don't like talking about it in the 242 00:12:07,601 --> 00:12:09,681 Speaker 1: real crime studio, but I think this is relevant. We've 243 00:12:09,721 --> 00:12:13,641 Speaker 1: seen in Sydney and Melbourne police commissioners who can't say 244 00:12:13,681 --> 00:12:17,521 Speaker 1: boo without talking to the Police Minister and answering to 245 00:12:17,641 --> 00:12:20,441 Speaker 1: negative publicity in the Daily Telegraph of the Herald's Sun, 246 00:12:20,681 --> 00:12:23,841 Speaker 1: and so we've seen a whittling down where the frontline 247 00:12:23,881 --> 00:12:27,921 Speaker 1: officers do not feel supported, particularly when push comes to 248 00:12:27,921 --> 00:12:30,561 Speaker 1: shove dealing with crooks who are not afraid of them. 249 00:12:31,121 --> 00:12:34,641 Speaker 3: Well, at the risk of sounding political, again, every senior 250 00:12:34,681 --> 00:12:36,721 Speaker 3: rank when I say senior rank, I'm talking about commander 251 00:12:36,761 --> 00:12:40,481 Speaker 3: and above in the Victoria Police is a political appointment, right, 252 00:12:40,681 --> 00:12:45,321 Speaker 3: So that thin bulurry line between the separation of powers 253 00:12:45,681 --> 00:12:48,721 Speaker 3: is thinner and blurrier all the time. You can tell 254 00:12:48,761 --> 00:12:51,401 Speaker 3: looking at some of these senior officers they're wetting themselves 255 00:12:51,441 --> 00:12:54,281 Speaker 3: with fears that they're not game to do it for 256 00:12:54,321 --> 00:12:58,081 Speaker 3: fear of being criticized, and they're highly sensitive to criticism. 257 00:12:58,361 --> 00:13:00,601 Speaker 1: Well, they lose their jobs. So that these commissions lose 258 00:13:00,641 --> 00:13:02,161 Speaker 1: their jobs and our verst publicity. 259 00:13:02,281 --> 00:13:04,361 Speaker 3: I can remember other chief commissions in the past that 260 00:13:04,441 --> 00:13:05,521 Speaker 3: didn't care about that. 261 00:13:06,081 --> 00:13:08,561 Speaker 4: I'd say I'm here to do the right team. 262 00:13:08,681 --> 00:13:12,481 Speaker 3: Now, if that doesn't fit within your political feelings, bad luck. 263 00:13:12,521 --> 00:13:15,121 Speaker 4: I'm going to do it anyway. You sack me. A 264 00:13:15,121 --> 00:13:18,321 Speaker 4: classic situation he is with Shane Patton, a top copper. 265 00:13:18,721 --> 00:13:20,161 Speaker 4: Shane Patton is. 266 00:13:20,401 --> 00:13:23,681 Speaker 3: A real copper, a real bloke as a red hot 267 00:13:23,761 --> 00:13:27,001 Speaker 3: go They guarantee they're going to give him a further 268 00:13:27,081 --> 00:13:31,601 Speaker 3: extension to his career. Politically, he's out of sync with him. 269 00:13:31,881 --> 00:13:33,721 Speaker 3: He's out on his ass the next day. 270 00:13:33,681 --> 00:13:36,681 Speaker 1: Yes, undermined and by his political masters who were just 271 00:13:36,721 --> 00:13:39,561 Speaker 1: before saying going to renew you. He goes in the 272 00:13:39,601 --> 00:13:42,961 Speaker 1: papers talking about his next term. Within a week, bomb 273 00:13:42,961 --> 00:13:43,321 Speaker 1: he's gone. 274 00:13:43,401 --> 00:13:44,601 Speaker 4: He's gone out. What does that, Tyler? 275 00:13:44,841 --> 00:13:47,761 Speaker 3: They've got this poor bugger from New Zealand coming. He 276 00:13:48,081 --> 00:13:51,521 Speaker 3: doesn't know whether he's bums as punched, drill little bored 277 00:13:51,561 --> 00:13:54,681 Speaker 3: at the moment, he's not gave us say for fear 278 00:13:54,721 --> 00:13:57,961 Speaker 3: of being broadsided, you know, like he makes all the 279 00:13:58,041 --> 00:14:00,721 Speaker 3: right noises and all that sort of stuff. But Shane 280 00:14:00,721 --> 00:14:03,201 Speaker 3: made all the right noises too. He is capable of 281 00:14:03,201 --> 00:14:05,881 Speaker 3: doing the job. When you're a leader, when you in command, 282 00:14:05,961 --> 00:14:09,921 Speaker 3: you've got a command. You can't go getting your testicles 283 00:14:10,161 --> 00:14:13,561 Speaker 3: bloody powdered by the politicians. You've got to be brave 284 00:14:13,721 --> 00:14:17,201 Speaker 3: enough to stand up and do the right thing for 285 00:14:17,241 --> 00:14:19,241 Speaker 3: the sake of doing the right. 286 00:14:19,201 --> 00:14:22,121 Speaker 1: Yes, because the last time they brought an outsider into Victoria, 287 00:14:22,841 --> 00:14:26,121 Speaker 1: Christine Nixon from New South Wales, didn't that go well, 288 00:14:26,161 --> 00:14:26,681 Speaker 1: there you go. 289 00:14:27,041 --> 00:14:27,841 Speaker 2: You were still on the job. 290 00:14:27,881 --> 00:14:31,841 Speaker 3: Then, well I was, and I'll quite frankly say that 291 00:14:31,881 --> 00:14:33,961 Speaker 3: the appointment of Christine Nixon was one of the things 292 00:14:34,001 --> 00:14:36,761 Speaker 3: that made me reconsider my career as far as staying 293 00:14:36,761 --> 00:14:39,521 Speaker 3: in the police force was concerned. And then subsequent appointments 294 00:14:39,521 --> 00:14:43,761 Speaker 3: from people outside the organization didn't fill me with much 295 00:14:43,801 --> 00:14:46,481 Speaker 3: confidence when I knew that the people put it this way. 296 00:14:46,921 --> 00:14:51,361 Speaker 3: When Nixon came to Victoria Police, it was head and shoulders, 297 00:14:51,361 --> 00:14:56,001 Speaker 3: the best police force in Australia, but absolutely professional. It 298 00:14:56,081 --> 00:14:57,841 Speaker 3: had its issues the same as every other, but it 299 00:14:57,881 --> 00:15:00,761 Speaker 3: was well run, it was well managed. All of a sudden, 300 00:15:00,801 --> 00:15:03,641 Speaker 3: this thing comes along. Everybody's calling everybody by their first 301 00:15:03,721 --> 00:15:06,241 Speaker 3: name and having a big love in all over the place. 302 00:15:06,521 --> 00:15:09,801 Speaker 3: They're appointing people because of the correct gender or the 303 00:15:09,841 --> 00:15:12,681 Speaker 3: correct sexual orientation. All of a sudden, the whole thing 304 00:15:12,761 --> 00:15:13,241 Speaker 3: goes to hell. 305 00:15:13,281 --> 00:15:17,441 Speaker 1: In a handbasket, and back then you had a paramilitary 306 00:15:17,481 --> 00:15:19,241 Speaker 1: police force. In my opinion, it was on though it 307 00:15:19,481 --> 00:15:21,521 Speaker 1: was obviously transforming into a corporate look. 308 00:15:21,561 --> 00:15:23,801 Speaker 3: It was a disciplined organizer. I don't know whether i'd 309 00:15:23,801 --> 00:15:26,081 Speaker 3: take it as far as paramilitary, but I'd say it's 310 00:15:26,121 --> 00:15:29,161 Speaker 3: a disciplined organization. There is a chain of command. 311 00:15:29,401 --> 00:15:32,161 Speaker 1: Inasmuch so it was because the sergeants had a lot 312 00:15:32,161 --> 00:15:34,921 Speaker 1: of power, They had a lot of influence within the stations. 313 00:15:35,121 --> 00:15:37,081 Speaker 1: And you were a sergeant in those days and you 314 00:15:37,161 --> 00:15:39,961 Speaker 1: ran your team as if that was the entirety of 315 00:15:40,041 --> 00:15:43,161 Speaker 1: Victoria Police. They answered to you, You mentored them, you 316 00:15:43,201 --> 00:15:46,281 Speaker 1: looked after them when they had critical incidents. But now 317 00:15:46,681 --> 00:15:48,481 Speaker 1: it's more like it goes up the chain now and 318 00:15:48,521 --> 00:15:51,681 Speaker 1: everyone's now beholden to the top brass who are rarely 319 00:15:51,681 --> 00:15:52,481 Speaker 1: on the front line. 320 00:15:52,681 --> 00:15:54,521 Speaker 3: When you join the police force, or when I joined 321 00:15:54,521 --> 00:15:57,361 Speaker 3: the police force, as it constable, you were taught about leadership. 322 00:15:57,921 --> 00:15:59,321 Speaker 4: You are a formal leader. 323 00:15:59,401 --> 00:16:01,241 Speaker 3: Even at the lowest rank in the police force, you 324 00:16:01,281 --> 00:16:03,881 Speaker 3: were a leader right and as you moved through the 325 00:16:03,881 --> 00:16:06,401 Speaker 3: police force, you learned more about leadership, You learn more 326 00:16:06,401 --> 00:16:10,841 Speaker 3: about management, and you learn about accepting responsibility and wearing 327 00:16:10,961 --> 00:16:13,001 Speaker 3: and owning things that you did and things that you 328 00:16:13,041 --> 00:16:16,521 Speaker 3: had control of. These days, they're petrified to do that. 329 00:16:16,721 --> 00:16:18,641 Speaker 3: What they do is they run it up the tree 330 00:16:18,761 --> 00:16:21,881 Speaker 3: instead of managing things at their level or at the 331 00:16:22,001 --> 00:16:24,641 Speaker 3: level immediately above them. All of a sudden, you've got 332 00:16:24,641 --> 00:16:28,081 Speaker 3: a superintendent standing out there talking about things that sergeants 333 00:16:28,081 --> 00:16:30,761 Speaker 3: should be talking about and getting back to sergeants. You 334 00:16:30,801 --> 00:16:33,961 Speaker 3: know these guys. When I was a young black, the 335 00:16:34,041 --> 00:16:37,401 Speaker 3: sergeant was a god. You know what he said happened 336 00:16:37,441 --> 00:16:42,201 Speaker 3: that there was no arguing the toss. These days, nobody 337 00:16:42,241 --> 00:16:44,881 Speaker 3: really cares much about the rank. I don't even think 338 00:16:44,921 --> 00:16:46,521 Speaker 3: a lot of the people that are holding the rank, 339 00:16:46,641 --> 00:16:48,401 Speaker 3: they're not really convincing as leaders. 340 00:16:49,241 --> 00:16:52,561 Speaker 1: You joined in seventy five. Over that period there was 341 00:16:52,601 --> 00:16:55,441 Speaker 1: a group of crooks who were getting very bold. They 342 00:16:55,481 --> 00:16:57,641 Speaker 1: lost their fear of the police. We saw the bombing 343 00:16:58,161 --> 00:17:03,081 Speaker 1: of Russell Street police headquarters. We saw the rampage of 344 00:17:03,601 --> 00:17:06,761 Speaker 1: Max Clark Pavelo marinod mad Max who shot I think 345 00:17:06,801 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: five or six police officers before he was killed. And 346 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: leading up to October nineteen eighty eight, when Damienair and 347 00:17:14,721 --> 00:17:18,681 Speaker 1: Stephen Tynan, constables were murdered in Wall Street South he era. 348 00:17:19,521 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: You were at the center of all that issue back then. 349 00:17:22,441 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: What was the attitude towards the crooks then and what 350 00:17:25,681 --> 00:17:28,361 Speaker 1: was the mindset of people like you who are on 351 00:17:28,441 --> 00:17:29,321 Speaker 1: the front line. 352 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,441 Speaker 4: Look, it was very much an US and them scenario. 353 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,761 Speaker 3: You know these days it's different, But back then, if 354 00:17:35,761 --> 00:17:40,521 Speaker 3: somebody chose to conduct themselves like that, you know, the 355 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 3: rule book found itself on its way out the window. 356 00:17:44,041 --> 00:17:47,441 Speaker 3: You did whatever it was required in order to bring 357 00:17:47,481 --> 00:17:49,961 Speaker 3: these blakes, take them out of the public, and put 358 00:17:50,001 --> 00:17:52,761 Speaker 3: them in jail. Say with the bombing of Russell Street, 359 00:17:52,761 --> 00:17:56,161 Speaker 3: for instance, the guys that did that, that was an evil, 360 00:17:56,481 --> 00:18:00,201 Speaker 3: sinister act to kill as many coppers as they possibly 361 00:18:00,201 --> 00:18:03,001 Speaker 3: could because they hated the coppers. They set up an 362 00:18:03,281 --> 00:18:06,641 Speaker 3: robbery well away to the focus from what they were 363 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: doing or what their intended act, which was effectively an 364 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:14,281 Speaker 3: active internal terrorism. You know, they loaded a car with explosives, 365 00:18:14,281 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 3: put it out in the front of Russell Street, and 366 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 3: then at that time of day they functioned or they 367 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,241 Speaker 3: caused that explosion to occur and kill as many people 368 00:18:23,241 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 3: as they could. Fortunately, for many of the members of 369 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,001 Speaker 3: the public, there wasn't as many people around as these 370 00:18:29,001 --> 00:18:32,281 Speaker 3: people wanted to be Angela Taylor, and a few other 371 00:18:32,321 --> 00:18:36,321 Speaker 3: people that were unfortunate to be nearby suffered the consequences, 372 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:38,521 Speaker 3: and there's a brutal death for that young woman. 373 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: It really was. 374 00:18:39,681 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: And you look at the circumstances of that bombing and 375 00:18:41,921 --> 00:18:44,801 Speaker 1: you realize it was only the incompetence of the bombers 376 00:18:45,201 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: that avoided much greater loss of life, because their plan 377 00:18:49,241 --> 00:18:52,881 Speaker 1: was to drive the vehicle under Russell Street into the basement, 378 00:18:52,921 --> 00:18:55,441 Speaker 1: and they would have brought the whole building down. And secondly, 379 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,761 Speaker 1: they didn't know how to make a blister of their explosives, 380 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,321 Speaker 1: so they packed them all in the car. Some of 381 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: the unexplodeds have ended up on buildings next door. Imagine 382 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: the scale of the explosion had they've been more competent. 383 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,961 Speaker 3: Well, it was fortunate for everybody. I think that they 384 00:19:14,001 --> 00:19:17,881 Speaker 3: weren't particularly good at making bombs. But even though they 385 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,681 Speaker 3: did their research and they made a highly effective bomb, 386 00:19:20,961 --> 00:19:23,561 Speaker 3: it's the tactics that they used and some of the 387 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,321 Speaker 3: techniques didn't come up to scratch as far as getting 388 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 3: maximum effect or maximum damage for the reasons you've pointed out. 389 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 3: But that doesn't take it away from the fact that 390 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 3: these guys, you wouldn't pick them in a million years as. 391 00:19:35,761 --> 00:19:37,961 Speaker 4: To the sort of people that would do that sort 392 00:19:38,001 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 4: of thing. 393 00:19:39,001 --> 00:19:43,481 Speaker 3: And really the investigators in that initial stage, they had 394 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,801 Speaker 3: no idea who it was and if it wasn't for 395 00:19:46,001 --> 00:19:49,041 Speaker 3: a detective sergent from the Stole Mode of Vehicle Squad 396 00:19:49,041 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 3: who identified a certain modus operandi. But it came to 397 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:56,041 Speaker 3: altering the appearance of a vehicle, he said, I know 398 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 3: who does things like that? He nominated the offender. That 399 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 3: changed the complexion of the investigation and led to the 400 00:20:02,521 --> 00:20:04,961 Speaker 3: arrest of all of the offenders. 401 00:20:05,441 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: And Stanley Taylor, Craig Minogue and a couple of others. 402 00:20:08,041 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: They run masters the bombers there. And I mean, you 403 00:20:10,721 --> 00:20:13,921 Speaker 1: could say people make excuses for stan Taylor and say 404 00:20:13,921 --> 00:20:16,841 Speaker 1: that he was brutalized in H Division, and he came 405 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: out with her who cares? 406 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:18,521 Speaker 2: Who cares? 407 00:20:18,921 --> 00:20:21,801 Speaker 3: You don't go to H Division if you're officer in 408 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,001 Speaker 3: charge of the glue Club. You go to Hate Division 409 00:20:24,001 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 3: because you're a crook, a bad guy. You know, if 410 00:20:26,961 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 3: you're brutalized, they're too bad, So sad who cares? 411 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:33,281 Speaker 1: And Craig Minogue he's now he's now a PhD, isn't 412 00:20:33,321 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: he he's got. 413 00:20:34,761 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, only we get to use it, thank god. I 414 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,441 Speaker 3: suppose the only good thing he did in his life 415 00:20:39,521 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: was killedt idiot tas Marcus. 416 00:20:41,801 --> 00:20:45,321 Speaker 1: Alex tas Marcus who killed he'd killed Barry Quinn had 417 00:20:45,321 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 1: he not inside pantrid set him on fire. 418 00:20:47,921 --> 00:20:51,521 Speaker 3: Yeah, he tipped a container of glue on him and 419 00:20:51,561 --> 00:20:52,321 Speaker 3: then let him up. 420 00:20:53,561 --> 00:20:54,561 Speaker 2: And then Monogad waited. 421 00:20:54,721 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 3: We call it an own goal in the trade. 422 00:20:59,281 --> 00:21:01,161 Speaker 1: The self cleaning oven. You stand back and let him 423 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,241 Speaker 1: burn each other up. But of course then Monogad waited 424 00:21:03,281 --> 00:21:04,561 Speaker 1: by the door when this markers coming in with a 425 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,321 Speaker 1: bag full of waits and smashed him over the head. 426 00:21:06,321 --> 00:21:06,961 Speaker 2: That was the end of him. 427 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,201 Speaker 3: It beat him to death with a bag full of words. 428 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,321 Speaker 3: Arguably the best thing he did for the public, indeed. 429 00:21:12,561 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: But as the rank and file officer who's pulling on 430 00:21:15,481 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: his uniform leaving home, kissing his wife goodbye and his kids, 431 00:21:20,001 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: when these things are going on, stressful, well, look it is. 432 00:21:24,041 --> 00:21:26,001 Speaker 3: I suppose to some degree you don't think of the 433 00:21:26,041 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 3: stressful aspects of it because you know what you're getting 434 00:21:28,921 --> 00:21:29,601 Speaker 3: yourself in for. 435 00:21:29,681 --> 00:21:29,961 Speaker 4: You. 436 00:21:30,001 --> 00:21:32,041 Speaker 3: Look, you don't go to those crime squads or a 437 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,601 Speaker 3: special operations group of things like that. If you think 438 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: you're going to be getting an easy ride through, you 439 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,761 Speaker 3: go there with the best intentions. You're out there to 440 00:21:40,801 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 3: make a difference and catch the worst of the worst, 441 00:21:44,201 --> 00:21:46,601 Speaker 3: and you're prepared to confront them. It takes a fair 442 00:21:46,681 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 3: bit of grit to do that, and if it turns 443 00:21:49,481 --> 00:21:53,561 Speaker 3: out that you pay the supreme price, so be it. 444 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,801 Speaker 3: You're gone in there with your eyes open, knowing what 445 00:21:56,961 --> 00:21:58,761 Speaker 3: is possible and what's likely to happen. 446 00:21:59,521 --> 00:22:03,481 Speaker 1: And then we have the Flemington crew Victor Pierce, Gary Abdullah, 447 00:22:03,481 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: Marc Melitano, and Graham Jensen, who were all part of 448 00:22:07,041 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: the lead up and the execution of those two police 449 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,961 Speaker 1: officers Steve Tynan Damien Air in nineteen eighty eight. 450 00:22:13,681 --> 00:22:15,641 Speaker 2: This was now a random attack. 451 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: What was the impact on your cohortant generation of that moment. 452 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: I don't know whether it was so much of a 453 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 3: random that was an absolute planned execution. They decided that 454 00:22:26,201 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 3: they were going to go out and kill a couple 455 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: of defenseless young coppers, So they set up a stolen 456 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,361 Speaker 3: car in a dark street in South Sierra, armed themselves 457 00:22:35,481 --> 00:22:38,561 Speaker 3: with superior weapons to what the coppers had. When the 458 00:22:38,721 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 3: young Blakes turned up, they murdered them in cold blood 459 00:22:41,481 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 3: in the street, and that personally, to me, it was 460 00:22:46,241 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 3: absolutely infuriating. And anybody that says any copper and any 461 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,281 Speaker 3: detective at the times that says he wasn't made furious 462 00:22:55,281 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 3: by that's not telling you the truth. 463 00:22:57,001 --> 00:22:57,641 Speaker 2: Where were you then? 464 00:22:58,120 --> 00:22:58,561 Speaker 4: I was a. 465 00:22:58,521 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 3: Detective in the major crime squad then, actually i'd just 466 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,721 Speaker 3: been promoted to sergeant. I was doing a sub officer's 467 00:23:04,761 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 3: course at the time. 468 00:23:06,001 --> 00:23:09,281 Speaker 1: But there was a perception that now all bets were off, 469 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 1: that there was going to be some more bloodshed, and 470 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: it didn't really matter how it was achieved. These fellows 471 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,001 Speaker 1: were either going to be brought in in the divvy 472 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,761 Speaker 1: van or in the coroner's wagon. 473 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 3: Well, whatever had to happen had to happen. You can't 474 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: allow people like this to prevail. I think people need 475 00:23:26,001 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 3: to understand it's not a competition out there. The coppers 476 00:23:28,801 --> 00:23:32,361 Speaker 3: have got to win. They must win. They're a thin 477 00:23:32,441 --> 00:23:36,041 Speaker 3: blue line. If they don't win these confrontations, if they 478 00:23:36,041 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 3: don't come out in front of these competitions, there is 479 00:23:38,201 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 3: nobody out there to protect the public, and the public 480 00:23:42,321 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 3: need protection and needed protection from people like that, as 481 00:23:45,801 --> 00:23:49,321 Speaker 3: they need protection from these lunatics running around doing what 482 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:50,441 Speaker 3: they're doing today. 483 00:23:51,561 --> 00:23:54,801 Speaker 1: You're also involved in the final moments of Mad Max 484 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: Pablo Maronov Max Clark, as he called himself at that time, 485 00:23:57,721 --> 00:24:01,561 Speaker 1: he was running around shooting police officers. Tell us about him. 486 00:24:01,801 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 3: Well, look, the guy you call Mad Max of Pavel, 487 00:24:04,321 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 3: the vassal of Maaro. 488 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:06,881 Speaker 4: He was a burglar. 489 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:10,161 Speaker 3: He was a really good burglar who happened to have 490 00:24:10,761 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 3: a skill set well above most burglars. 491 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,321 Speaker 4: This guy was very, very good with. 492 00:24:16,321 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 3: Weapons, especially handguns, and every time he had a confrontation 493 00:24:20,521 --> 00:24:23,481 Speaker 3: with the coppers when it came to the use of handguns, 494 00:24:23,481 --> 00:24:25,881 Speaker 3: he came out in front. He is the element of surprise, 495 00:24:26,001 --> 00:24:30,801 Speaker 3: his high level of skill training that he probably received overseas. 496 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 4: In the military. 497 00:24:31,961 --> 00:24:34,081 Speaker 3: He won every gun battle that he got involved with 498 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,801 Speaker 3: the police. He didn't kill any police, but he severely 499 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,521 Speaker 3: wounded a number of them. Just luck, really well, it 500 00:24:40,561 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 3: was more good luck than good management. Some of the 501 00:24:43,241 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 3: stuff he did was fairly brutal, and especially shooting. That 502 00:24:47,681 --> 00:24:50,241 Speaker 3: wounded sergeant that was on the ground came up behind 503 00:24:50,281 --> 00:24:53,401 Speaker 3: him with a forty five automatic pistol with a modified 504 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 3: projectile that actually had been drilled out to cause maximum 505 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,561 Speaker 3: expansion and shot him between the shoulder blades and turned 506 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,721 Speaker 3: him into a paraplegic. 507 00:25:03,241 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 4: That was particularly look at the end of it. 508 00:25:07,481 --> 00:25:10,721 Speaker 3: All the day that we got him, he was armed 509 00:25:10,721 --> 00:25:15,121 Speaker 3: with a nine milimeter a pistol, a stolen submachine gun, 510 00:25:15,521 --> 00:25:19,281 Speaker 3: and he had a confrontation with the police as a 511 00:25:19,321 --> 00:25:21,201 Speaker 3: result of which he was shot to death. 512 00:25:23,041 --> 00:25:24,801 Speaker 1: There's a couple more stages to that. I'd like it 513 00:25:26,321 --> 00:25:28,281 Speaker 1: because it was quite a moment, wasn't it, Because you 514 00:25:28,321 --> 00:25:30,321 Speaker 1: were there on the scene, but you weren't quite there. 515 00:25:30,681 --> 00:25:31,201 Speaker 2: Where were you? 516 00:25:31,281 --> 00:25:34,201 Speaker 3: Well, there was four of us that were initially deployed. 517 00:25:34,721 --> 00:25:38,041 Speaker 3: It was very tenuous information that we received that we 518 00:25:38,041 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 3: were regards to this offender. We couldn't tell who it 519 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,241 Speaker 3: was at the distance that we were. We couldn't approach 520 00:25:44,721 --> 00:25:48,241 Speaker 3: where he was easily. We had to observe him from 521 00:25:48,241 --> 00:25:51,521 Speaker 3: a distance. We weren't sure who he was. Up until 522 00:25:51,561 --> 00:25:54,601 Speaker 3: such time as John Kapernowski and Rod MacDonell actually did 523 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,881 Speaker 3: the intercept. We had a communications issue, a failure as 524 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 3: a result of which during that communications failure, when they 525 00:26:01,921 --> 00:26:04,761 Speaker 3: decided they wanted to intercept Max, the gunfight ensued. 526 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 4: The other half of the crew didn't know what was 527 00:26:07,241 --> 00:26:07,681 Speaker 4: going on. 528 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,561 Speaker 2: You could see that from your distance. 529 00:26:09,241 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: No, I couldn't see it. They decided to intercept him 530 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 3: a bit down the road. We didn't know that they 531 00:26:13,481 --> 00:26:15,681 Speaker 3: were going to carry out the intercept because their communications 532 00:26:15,681 --> 00:26:19,721 Speaker 3: had failed. Once we became aware that the gunfight had 533 00:26:19,721 --> 00:26:22,721 Speaker 3: occurred and the two coppers were wounded, initially we thought 534 00:26:22,761 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 3: the offender had actually gotten away until we located the 535 00:26:26,961 --> 00:26:30,521 Speaker 3: van in a paddock just out of Wallen. I didn't 536 00:26:30,561 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 3: even know it was Mad Max until we had approached 537 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,961 Speaker 3: it and I could see him laying in the driver 538 00:26:36,041 --> 00:26:38,001 Speaker 3: side of the vehicle with his with his right arm 539 00:26:38,041 --> 00:26:42,001 Speaker 3: pretty well shot away and blood coming from his forehead, 540 00:26:42,001 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 3: and he had a blonde wig on, which made it 541 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,001 Speaker 3: fairly hard to identify him. So I actually didn't know 542 00:26:47,001 --> 00:26:48,641 Speaker 3: that it was until I took the wig off his head, 543 00:26:48,681 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 3: and then bang, you know new strataway that it was 544 00:26:51,481 --> 00:26:52,041 Speaker 3: Mad Max. 545 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,001 Speaker 4: He was obviously dead. 546 00:26:54,241 --> 00:26:56,361 Speaker 1: Because McDonald had managed to get a shot off even 547 00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: though he was wounded, and he had the big SG 548 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,521 Speaker 1: round in his shotgun. 549 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,721 Speaker 3: McDonald was shot through the chest. He was armed with 550 00:27:03,801 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: a Remington eight cv shotgun on the passenger side of 551 00:27:06,961 --> 00:27:09,241 Speaker 3: the van. Kapit was on the driver's side of the 552 00:27:09,321 --> 00:27:13,921 Speaker 3: van when Mad Max engaged them. He fired at Kapranovski, first, 553 00:27:14,321 --> 00:27:16,521 Speaker 3: effectively putting him out of the fight, shot off one 554 00:27:16,521 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 3: of his fingers in his master hand. The second round 555 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,241 Speaker 3: hit him in the humorous of his left hand, which 556 00:27:22,241 --> 00:27:26,321 Speaker 3: effectively rendered him incapable of engaging so he couldn't fire. 557 00:27:26,921 --> 00:27:29,001 Speaker 3: He then turned his attention to McDonald, who was on 558 00:27:29,041 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 3: the passenger side, fired around shot McDonald in the chest. 559 00:27:33,001 --> 00:27:38,321 Speaker 3: McDonald returns fire with a shotgun. A shotgun blast, as 560 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 3: you quite correctly said, using SD's which are quite a 561 00:27:41,721 --> 00:27:46,161 Speaker 3: powerful load, has hit Max in the right forearm, which 562 00:27:46,241 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 3: was his master hand, the hand that he was holding 563 00:27:49,001 --> 00:27:49,561 Speaker 3: the gun in. 564 00:27:50,801 --> 00:27:52,041 Speaker 4: It pretty well blew. 565 00:27:51,761 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 3: That arm off almost and as he fired that round, 566 00:27:56,721 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 3: Max accelerates away in the vehicle, cuts through a fence 567 00:28:00,201 --> 00:28:03,441 Speaker 3: and drives out into a paddock. McDonald does a reload 568 00:28:03,801 --> 00:28:06,481 Speaker 3: on the hop they call a tactic or reload by 569 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,801 Speaker 3: as his weapon. One pellet from that round enters through 570 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,641 Speaker 3: the back window of the van, striking Max in the 571 00:28:14,681 --> 00:28:18,321 Speaker 3: back of the head, killing him pretty well instantly, and 572 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:21,561 Speaker 3: the vehicles eventually come to a stop. The thing that 573 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,961 Speaker 3: actually killed him was that round that one round through 574 00:28:24,001 --> 00:28:27,401 Speaker 3: the head. The other injury that he received was survivable, 575 00:28:27,481 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 3: but it was quite a significant injury. 576 00:28:29,961 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: This was a cumbination of a desperate man hunt. What 577 00:28:33,321 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: was it like for you being on the scene there 578 00:28:35,961 --> 00:28:39,041 Speaker 1: when the threats been neutralized, the reign of terror is over. 579 00:28:39,121 --> 00:28:40,921 Speaker 1: What was the emotion that you felt. 580 00:28:40,721 --> 00:28:42,921 Speaker 3: Well, you know, you're got it. There's a fairly major 581 00:28:42,961 --> 00:28:47,081 Speaker 3: adrenaline Russia occurring. There's very emotions are bouncing all over 582 00:28:47,121 --> 00:28:49,801 Speaker 3: the place, you know. But the fact that we had 583 00:28:49,841 --> 00:28:52,881 Speaker 3: identified him as being the person that we were after, 584 00:28:52,921 --> 00:28:55,321 Speaker 3: and the fact that he was dead. I suppose a 585 00:28:55,361 --> 00:28:58,241 Speaker 3: sense of relief came over us. You know, the SoJ 586 00:28:58,441 --> 00:29:01,321 Speaker 3: guys that were there with us, you know, they once 587 00:29:01,441 --> 00:29:04,561 Speaker 3: were satisfied that he was no longer a threat. It 588 00:29:04,681 --> 00:29:06,201 Speaker 3: see him brother sigh of relief. 589 00:29:07,041 --> 00:29:11,881 Speaker 1: Because you go into operational and arms training after that. Understands. Yeah, 590 00:29:11,921 --> 00:29:15,841 Speaker 1: with these experiences in mind, what are you telling young 591 00:29:15,881 --> 00:29:19,401 Speaker 1: recruits coming into the academy, coming into the squads about 592 00:29:19,521 --> 00:29:20,561 Speaker 1: what they're going to encounter. 593 00:29:21,081 --> 00:29:24,841 Speaker 3: My role at the fosteranit of the forums operational survival training, 594 00:29:24,841 --> 00:29:27,401 Speaker 3: and it was I was actually an instructor trainer, so 595 00:29:27,801 --> 00:29:31,601 Speaker 3: we were training instructors to teach coppers how to win 596 00:29:31,641 --> 00:29:34,921 Speaker 3: gun battles pretty well. And people see the public seem 597 00:29:34,961 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 3: to think, oh, the coppers carry guns and they do 598 00:29:37,401 --> 00:29:39,521 Speaker 3: target practice and fire the guns. Yeah, they do do 599 00:29:39,641 --> 00:29:43,281 Speaker 3: target practice, but ultimately they're taught to fight with the 600 00:29:43,321 --> 00:29:46,201 Speaker 3: weapons systems that they're issued with. And there's a big 601 00:29:46,201 --> 00:29:49,801 Speaker 3: difference between shooting targets and shooting human burnings. The use 602 00:29:49,841 --> 00:29:52,641 Speaker 3: of force, the use of force continuum, all the tactics, 603 00:29:52,681 --> 00:29:55,041 Speaker 3: the techniques, all the other equipment that's open to them, 604 00:29:55,641 --> 00:29:57,681 Speaker 3: how to use it, how to apply it, how to 605 00:29:57,921 --> 00:30:02,081 Speaker 3: make the judgment calls. And that's trained both mechanically developing 606 00:30:02,121 --> 00:30:06,361 Speaker 3: psycho motor skills and also the psychologic and you're going 607 00:30:06,401 --> 00:30:09,641 Speaker 3: to be psychologically very very switched on. You're going to 608 00:30:09,641 --> 00:30:11,401 Speaker 3: pass a lot of tests in order to be able 609 00:30:11,401 --> 00:30:13,041 Speaker 3: to be the person that's going to get out there 610 00:30:13,281 --> 00:30:15,841 Speaker 3: and be prepared to enter into a gun battle and win. 611 00:30:16,321 --> 00:30:18,681 Speaker 3: As I said earlier, the coppers have got a win well. 612 00:30:18,721 --> 00:30:22,441 Speaker 1: Particularly when you're not supposed to be proactive, you've got 613 00:30:22,441 --> 00:30:26,161 Speaker 1: to respond appropriately in the circumstances. 614 00:30:26,441 --> 00:30:31,201 Speaker 3: Coppers are always reactive, So no matter what happens when 615 00:30:31,201 --> 00:30:34,161 Speaker 3: you're out there you are reacting to a stimulus, so 616 00:30:34,241 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 3: the offender has always got the advantage. The offender has 617 00:30:37,241 --> 00:30:40,001 Speaker 3: got the advantage and the fact that he knows when, where, 618 00:30:40,121 --> 00:30:43,521 Speaker 3: and what he's going to do. The coppers are reacting 619 00:30:43,761 --> 00:30:48,041 Speaker 3: to that stimulus, so they're at a tactical disadvantage in 620 00:30:48,081 --> 00:30:52,681 Speaker 3: most cases. Where there are tactical situations where the police 621 00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:57,401 Speaker 3: may have a tactical advantage, but that's not directly relevant 622 00:30:57,441 --> 00:30:58,361 Speaker 3: to general policing. 623 00:30:59,241 --> 00:31:02,201 Speaker 1: We spoke to George Hateley from a SOOG from Victoria 624 00:31:02,361 --> 00:31:05,321 Speaker 1: about his confrontation with Normally at the airport in the 625 00:31:05,361 --> 00:31:08,401 Speaker 1: early nineties. It's a classic situation like that where I 626 00:31:08,481 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: remember that where Lee has tried to rob the ANSET terminal. 627 00:31:11,961 --> 00:31:15,561 Speaker 1: He's driving away. The vehicle isn't accepted by the SOG members. 628 00:31:16,081 --> 00:31:19,641 Speaker 1: Lee's on the ground, he's got his forty five, He's 629 00:31:19,681 --> 00:31:22,281 Speaker 1: going to give up. George has got his shotgun leveled 630 00:31:22,281 --> 00:31:27,161 Speaker 1: at Lee. Then Lee raises his gun again and George fires. 631 00:31:27,521 --> 00:31:30,321 Speaker 3: George showed a hell of a lot of restraint in 632 00:31:30,441 --> 00:31:33,681 Speaker 3: not killing him prior to that. But our soog are 633 00:31:33,881 --> 00:31:36,601 Speaker 3: probably one of the finest in the world. These guys 634 00:31:36,641 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: are trained magnificently They're not there to kill people, you know, 635 00:31:40,641 --> 00:31:43,441 Speaker 3: they're there to stop threats. Their roles are counter terrorist 636 00:31:43,521 --> 00:31:45,961 Speaker 3: roll even though from time to time they do roles 637 00:31:45,961 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 3: other chasing other violent criminals. But if the soger at 638 00:31:49,561 --> 00:31:53,161 Speaker 3: the scene, they kill somebody, if they shoot somebody, means 639 00:31:53,201 --> 00:31:55,241 Speaker 3: things have got as bad as they could possibly be 640 00:31:55,401 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 3: and there was no other tactical option because George's responds 641 00:32:00,241 --> 00:32:02,041 Speaker 3: to a different kettle fish. That's a different kettle of 642 00:32:02,081 --> 00:32:06,281 Speaker 3: fish to general policing. Right, you're talking about extremely highly 643 00:32:06,321 --> 00:32:09,641 Speaker 3: trained men as opposed to guys that have got good, 644 00:32:09,761 --> 00:32:14,081 Speaker 3: solid training. But the level is totally different with people 645 00:32:14,121 --> 00:32:14,481 Speaker 3: like George. 646 00:32:14,521 --> 00:32:17,081 Speaker 1: As you see, I have great sympathy for people on 647 00:32:17,161 --> 00:32:19,801 Speaker 1: the div van now. I think three quarters of their 648 00:32:19,841 --> 00:32:23,161 Speaker 1: jobs are domestic violence interventions. They don't know what they're 649 00:32:23,201 --> 00:32:26,161 Speaker 1: coming into, crossing the threshold. There could be a weapon, 650 00:32:26,201 --> 00:32:29,121 Speaker 1: that could be anything there. And they're supposed to be counselors, 651 00:32:29,121 --> 00:32:31,041 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be police officer, are supposed to be. 652 00:32:31,041 --> 00:32:31,641 Speaker 2: All kinds of things. 653 00:32:31,681 --> 00:32:34,841 Speaker 3: Let's realize the problem you see in my humble view, 654 00:32:35,121 --> 00:32:38,161 Speaker 3: all murders are usually occurred by people that know each other, 655 00:32:38,961 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 3: and domestic arguments are often the scenario where you know 656 00:32:43,641 --> 00:32:47,801 Speaker 3: mum's stabs, dads, dads dabs, mum love triangles, all of 657 00:32:47,841 --> 00:32:52,161 Speaker 3: those human frailties that create motives and want people to 658 00:32:52,241 --> 00:32:54,641 Speaker 3: kill each other. The couples on the div van get 659 00:32:54,641 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 3: a call a mom and dad are yelling at each other, 660 00:32:56,801 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 3: They hear dishes breaking, they turn up. They don't know 661 00:32:59,481 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 3: what they're going to face you. Initially, what I think 662 00:33:02,001 --> 00:33:03,921 Speaker 3: should happen is they should identify it for what it 663 00:33:04,001 --> 00:33:06,361 Speaker 3: is to a triage. If somebody needs to be arrested, 664 00:33:06,401 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 3: they arrest them and they should hand the whole shooting 665 00:33:08,801 --> 00:33:12,041 Speaker 3: match over to pardon the pun They should hand it 666 00:33:12,081 --> 00:33:15,281 Speaker 3: over to social workers to deal with. What happens these 667 00:33:15,361 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 3: days is they do all that rough tough stuff and 668 00:33:18,281 --> 00:33:21,241 Speaker 3: take the physical threats away, and then they're going to 669 00:33:21,281 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 3: get into the touchy fairly, put them before courts and 670 00:33:24,561 --> 00:33:28,041 Speaker 3: make everybody feel nice and fluffy stuff. That's where if 671 00:33:28,041 --> 00:33:30,601 Speaker 3: you want to tie up a police divisional van, send 672 00:33:30,641 --> 00:33:33,041 Speaker 3: them to a domestic argument because you know you've got 673 00:33:33,041 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 3: their undivided attention for a minimum of four hours. 674 00:33:36,441 --> 00:33:39,481 Speaker 1: Particularly after the Raw Commission here in Victoria highlighted the 675 00:33:39,521 --> 00:33:43,681 Speaker 1: inability of police in these situations, the failure to prevent 676 00:33:43,761 --> 00:33:46,961 Speaker 1: these things, going from a domestic argument to a homicide. 677 00:33:47,001 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 3: Well, the thing is all of this stuff. It's analyzed 678 00:33:50,961 --> 00:33:53,241 Speaker 3: to with an inch of its life in a currenter's 679 00:33:53,321 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 3: court or when there's embarrassed across examining someone. But ultimately 680 00:33:58,361 --> 00:34:00,321 Speaker 3: it takes a matter of seconds. Somebody picks up the 681 00:34:00,321 --> 00:34:03,721 Speaker 3: wilt chair's stay sharp knife from the kitchen bench, runs 682 00:34:03,721 --> 00:34:05,041 Speaker 3: it through mum's chair. 683 00:34:05,641 --> 00:34:08,241 Speaker 4: There you have it. A murder. You know, that's as 684 00:34:08,321 --> 00:34:09,121 Speaker 4: much as it takes. 685 00:34:09,121 --> 00:34:12,241 Speaker 3: And I have seen human beings with every conceivable type 686 00:34:12,241 --> 00:34:17,601 Speaker 3: of knife, screwdriver, scissors, whatever you can imagine, sticking them 687 00:34:17,601 --> 00:34:19,841 Speaker 3: into each other and killing each other. I reckon, I've 688 00:34:19,841 --> 00:34:21,881 Speaker 3: seen pretty well every way you can do it. How 689 00:34:21,881 --> 00:34:23,921 Speaker 3: do you sleep like a baby? 690 00:34:25,001 --> 00:34:27,121 Speaker 2: Why do you? 691 00:34:27,201 --> 00:34:29,561 Speaker 3: How would you say it? Look, my eyes have seen 692 00:34:29,641 --> 00:34:32,601 Speaker 3: things that my brain will never forget. You just got 693 00:34:32,601 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 3: to learn to live with it. 694 00:34:34,241 --> 00:34:36,121 Speaker 1: You don't, You can't live without those memories. 695 00:34:36,401 --> 00:34:40,161 Speaker 3: I mean you look, no, Look, there's there's some occasionally 696 00:34:40,401 --> 00:34:43,881 Speaker 3: something will trigger something off and it'll remind you of 697 00:34:43,961 --> 00:34:48,201 Speaker 3: a scenario or remind you of something tragic that's occurred, 698 00:34:48,361 --> 00:34:51,761 Speaker 3: and you think of what I've seen people do to 699 00:34:51,841 --> 00:34:55,241 Speaker 3: each other out there, and you think the world's not 700 00:34:55,441 --> 00:34:59,041 Speaker 3: that bad a place. But humans will continue to be humans, 701 00:34:59,041 --> 00:35:02,561 Speaker 3: and they'll continue slaughtering each other and doing horrible things 702 00:35:02,561 --> 00:35:06,041 Speaker 3: to each other because of the human is that they have. 703 00:35:07,161 --> 00:35:09,801 Speaker 3: And the people that are refereeing it, which are the coppers, 704 00:35:10,001 --> 00:35:13,561 Speaker 3: will always be the ones that are scrutinized, will always 705 00:35:13,601 --> 00:35:16,201 Speaker 3: be the ones that are in the hot seat. It's 706 00:35:16,241 --> 00:35:17,241 Speaker 3: all being analyzed. 707 00:35:18,401 --> 00:35:22,681 Speaker 1: Would you join again now, knowing the environment today, the 708 00:35:22,761 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: constraints obstacles, you would have to operate away. 709 00:35:25,881 --> 00:35:29,681 Speaker 3: And if I joined today and I conducted myself like 710 00:35:29,721 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 3: I did when I joined, I'd last about a minute 711 00:35:32,481 --> 00:35:33,281 Speaker 3: and a half out there. 712 00:35:33,321 --> 00:35:37,361 Speaker 2: I reckon, how do we put fear back into the crooks? 713 00:35:37,601 --> 00:35:41,801 Speaker 3: The thing is that the fear is a driver and 714 00:35:41,921 --> 00:35:45,761 Speaker 3: it's a behavior modifier. I suppose you could use say 715 00:35:45,801 --> 00:35:48,401 Speaker 3: Singapore as an example. You know, I know it's an 716 00:35:48,401 --> 00:35:51,761 Speaker 3: extreme example, but the use of corporal punishment for people 717 00:35:51,761 --> 00:35:55,241 Speaker 3: that choose to conduct themselves in a violent and nasty 718 00:35:55,281 --> 00:35:57,921 Speaker 3: way out in the street. If you choose to conduct 719 00:35:57,921 --> 00:36:01,561 Speaker 3: yourself like that, you bring the punishment onto yourself. The 720 00:36:01,641 --> 00:36:05,801 Speaker 3: villain's out there, especially these young people They understand and violence. 721 00:36:06,241 --> 00:36:09,841 Speaker 3: They know what violence is. They use it when it's 722 00:36:09,881 --> 00:36:13,081 Speaker 3: exacted against them. Their attitude changes very very quickly. They 723 00:36:13,201 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 3: know if the odds are stacked against them, they lose 724 00:36:15,481 --> 00:36:18,761 Speaker 3: interests pretty smartly. Don't worry about that. Where they've got 725 00:36:18,801 --> 00:36:21,281 Speaker 3: the upper hand, when they've got a stolen vehicle or 726 00:36:21,281 --> 00:36:26,481 Speaker 3: an edged weapon. They never attack anyone who's capable of 727 00:36:26,521 --> 00:36:30,641 Speaker 3: defending themselves effectively. They always attack someone who is not 728 00:36:30,801 --> 00:36:35,161 Speaker 3: capable of defending themselves, the weak women people, when they're 729 00:36:35,241 --> 00:36:38,921 Speaker 3: vulnerable in their houses. So they've got the upper hand, 730 00:36:39,041 --> 00:36:41,441 Speaker 3: there is no fear, or there's a minimal amount of fear. 731 00:36:42,361 --> 00:36:44,841 Speaker 3: When the odds are stacked in the other way, well 732 00:36:44,841 --> 00:36:46,841 Speaker 3: it's a different kettle of fish. You find that their 733 00:36:46,881 --> 00:36:48,081 Speaker 3: behavior changes a lot. 734 00:36:48,801 --> 00:36:52,761 Speaker 1: Indeed, just to finish, you can set the record straight 735 00:36:53,521 --> 00:36:56,041 Speaker 1: about an issue that Carl Williams faced out in broad 736 00:36:56,121 --> 00:36:59,201 Speaker 1: Meadows when you were the sergeant there in the late nineties. 737 00:36:59,681 --> 00:37:04,561 Speaker 1: He always believed that the Moran clan is sworn enemies 738 00:37:05,201 --> 00:37:08,641 Speaker 1: had sent the police to a location where he and 739 00:37:08,681 --> 00:37:11,961 Speaker 1: his father when you're manufacturing drugs. But I think you've 740 00:37:11,961 --> 00:37:15,281 Speaker 1: got a different version of that, and this actually Carl 741 00:37:15,441 --> 00:37:19,401 Speaker 1: used this as a motivation for his feud with the Moranes, 742 00:37:19,441 --> 00:37:21,721 Speaker 1: but it wasn't quite the way that he thought it 743 00:37:21,801 --> 00:37:23,441 Speaker 1: had transpy What actually happened. 744 00:37:23,961 --> 00:37:27,561 Speaker 3: Well, I was a detective senior says that in charge 745 00:37:27,561 --> 00:37:31,481 Speaker 3: of broad Meadows, So I believe on that day my 746 00:37:31,601 --> 00:37:36,561 Speaker 3: detectives were investigating something totally different that Williams or any 747 00:37:36,601 --> 00:37:39,241 Speaker 3: of the Marines weren't even in the picture. They went 748 00:37:39,281 --> 00:37:41,761 Speaker 3: to what was referred to as the walk up flats 749 00:37:42,001 --> 00:37:44,921 Speaker 3: in broad Meadows. They are going to execute a warrant 750 00:37:44,961 --> 00:37:48,161 Speaker 3: for a fraud matter. They could hear something happening upstairs, 751 00:37:48,601 --> 00:37:52,601 Speaker 3: like a machine operating like a washing machine, and being 752 00:37:52,801 --> 00:37:55,561 Speaker 3: clever detectives they've worked not many people kept washing machines 753 00:37:55,641 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 3: upstairs in bedroom. So they end up gaining entry onto 754 00:37:59,561 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 3: this place and that happens to be Williams's drug manufacturing lab. 755 00:38:02,961 --> 00:38:05,681 Speaker 3: And the machine that was operating was a pill press. 756 00:38:06,721 --> 00:38:09,761 Speaker 3: So they found themselves all of a sudden standing up 757 00:38:09,761 --> 00:38:15,561 Speaker 3: to their knees in amphetamines and other drugs. As a 758 00:38:15,601 --> 00:38:19,761 Speaker 3: sheer fluke, and a lot of these things in situations 759 00:38:19,801 --> 00:38:23,481 Speaker 3: like this is exactly what happens. Police stumble across things. 760 00:38:23,921 --> 00:38:25,761 Speaker 3: But I say life's like a box of chocolate. You 761 00:38:25,841 --> 00:38:27,521 Speaker 3: never know until you open up and have a look. 762 00:38:27,801 --> 00:38:29,401 Speaker 3: You pull up a vehicle on the side of the 763 00:38:29,481 --> 00:38:32,681 Speaker 3: road where a routine stop and there's a Blake's got 764 00:38:32,721 --> 00:38:34,361 Speaker 3: missus mcgilla cuddy in the booth. 765 00:38:34,161 --> 00:38:37,681 Speaker 4: That they murdered. You know, there is no difference. 766 00:38:37,281 --> 00:38:39,601 Speaker 2: Poor missus mcgilla cuddy, so Williams. 767 00:38:40,041 --> 00:38:42,521 Speaker 3: Not that it matters anymore, but Williams has got tickets 768 00:38:42,521 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 3: on himself. Nobody sent the coppers anywhere as far as 769 00:38:46,721 --> 00:38:49,681 Speaker 3: arresting him as concern. He was just stiff that he 770 00:38:49,761 --> 00:38:51,641 Speaker 3: was at the wrong place at the wrong time. 771 00:38:51,801 --> 00:38:57,521 Speaker 1: That was your part in his downfall, Alex Christich. So 772 00:38:57,521 --> 00:38:59,641 Speaker 1: many amazing stories there. And I just think about the 773 00:38:59,641 --> 00:39:02,281 Speaker 1: people who are on the front line of police these days. 774 00:39:02,321 --> 00:39:05,041 Speaker 1: How do they feel about the constraints about the life 775 00:39:05,201 --> 00:39:07,721 Speaker 1: of resources, the politics, the whole thing. If you're out there, 776 00:39:08,281 --> 00:39:10,441 Speaker 1: either you're in the force or you're thinking of joining, 777 00:39:10,601 --> 00:39:11,881 Speaker 1: why don't you drop me a line, let me know 778 00:39:11,921 --> 00:39:14,401 Speaker 1: how you're feeling, you know, Adam Channer, writer at gmail 779 00:39:14,521 --> 00:39:17,961 Speaker 1: dot com. Otherwise, I'd love your feedback on this episode. 780 00:39:18,361 --> 00:39:20,321 Speaker 1: And if you ever have a story, you can either 781 00:39:20,321 --> 00:39:22,641 Speaker 1: call Crime stoppers, what don't under triple three, triple zer 782 00:39:22,961 --> 00:39:25,001 Speaker 1: or you can talk to me here at Real Crime. 783 00:39:25,361 --> 00:39:27,201 Speaker 2: This has been Adam Shann for real crime. Thank you 784 00:39:27,281 --> 00:39:27,721 Speaker 2: for listening.