WEBVTT - Why protests are getting more dangerous 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:09.879 I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to seven AM. When 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.720 former Green's candidate Hannah Thomas was at a pro Palestine 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.160 protest recently, she was allegedly punched in the face by 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.439 a police officer, seriously injuring her eye. A police officer 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.239 has since been charged with assault, and Miss Thomas is 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.799 seeking compensation. But this incident is one of many in 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.760 recent years where police have been accused of using excessive 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.760 force against protesters, and it comes as officers are increasingly 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:38.560 using weapons like pepper spray and rubber bullets. Today, journalist 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.159 and author Ariel Bogel on the use of these so 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:46.760 called non lethal weapons and how they're changing protests in Australia. 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:58.680 It's Tuesday, October fourteenth, So, Ariel, at the moment, we're 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.920 seeing weekly public protests, thousands of people gathering regularly in 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:07.320 pro Palestine marches, as also climate protests. We saw anti 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.440 immigration rallies. As all of this happens, though, we are 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:15.480 also regularly hearing reports of people being injured, sometimes quite. 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:16.600 Seriously, by police. 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.319 So can you tell me some of the stories that 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:20.920 you've been looking at of this happening. 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:21.839 So, yeah, I've been. 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.840 Tracking these same protests that you're talking about, and just 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:29.480 noticing perhaps an optick in the appearance of what you 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.120 call leslie or police tools. So these are things like 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:37.119 OC spray, pepper spray in some cases, rubber bullets, things 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.080 called flashbangs that kind of let off a loud sound 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.440 like sort of miniature explosives for one of a better 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:46.560 way to put it. 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.280 The Avanti branch now also trying to stop this group 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.080 which is on the Clarendon Street side from coming down 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.960 along the Era. Jeez, that's pepper spray gets in the area. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.720 I started one wondering what impact this might be having 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.480 on protesters or others observing them. And one person I 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.720 spoke to was Alex Zuko. She's a photographer in Melbourne 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.480 who was pepper sprayed while doing her job as a 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.240 photojournalist at a protest in Melbourne towards the end of 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:14.880 last year. 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.920 It caused her to go blind for about an hour. 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:18.880 She needed help. 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.239 There was another photographer too was injured at the same protest. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:24.360 He told me he was hit in the ear with 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.840 a rubber bullet and required medical attention for that. 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.440 And tell me a bit more about these weapons, about 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.240 the OC spray and the rubber bullets, these things that 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.080 police seem to be using a protest. 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.160 What I mean, can they cause long term damage? 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:40.799 So when we use the term oc spray, we were 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.280 referring to the kind of chemical compound used in the 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.360 spray that causes that intense burning to the eye. And 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.040 people told me it's like getting stabbed in the eye. 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.200 You know, it's really excruciating if it gets into your eyeball. 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.920 And people probably have heard of pepper spray, but they 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.040 might have this idea it's like a small cannacuse of 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.880 spray at someone's eye kind of miss. These days, the 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.920 type that police have is it's more like a sticky foam, 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.400 if you can imagine it. The issue is too like 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.639 how to get it off. A lot of people who 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:09.960 go to the protests now have techniques for doing this, 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.760 but when you get home, you need to have a shower, 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:14.760 get out of your hair, get out of your eyebrows, 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.160 get out of your clothes. But it's not a simple 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.640 thing to get this stuff off. And then of course 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.680 there are things like rubber bullets or different forms of projectiles. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:26.480 We heard from somebody Kylie Martin. 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.960 She says she was shot in the leg by police 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.360 with a projectile she believes was a baton round. Just 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:36.040 for clarity, a baton round. They can be fired from 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.120 a weapon ressembling a kind of grenade launcher. So in 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.280 a statement she said that police were just shooting into 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.840 the crowded protesters and she claims to have had lasting 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.760 pain and damage to her leg. 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.320 And when we look at injuries. 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.200 From these tools globally, we can see really serious instances 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.920 of injury, brain damage, and even death. I think the 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.680 term let's legal quote unquote is a bit of a misnoma. Certainly, 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.040 these tools, especially projectiles, can be lethal depending on how 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.080 they're used, so they're not something to be used lightly. 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.920 So police have growing access to these types of tools, 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.880 but there has been a bit of a lack of 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.440 public discussion or examination I think of how these tools 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:18.479 are being used and even what tools are out there. 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.000 I think the average Australian might be quite shocked if 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:22.680 they go to a protest and see police with some 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:23.200 of these things. 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.279 They might never have even heard of them. 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.560 And so where are these tools developed and how do 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.520 they make their way to Australian police forces. 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.279 Yeah, so when you look at some of the manufacturers 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.960 of sea spray, flash bangs, rubber bullets. They do often 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.320 come out of companies that make other more traditionally legal weapons. 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.320 They often have a side trade in these kind of 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.720 less legal policing tools. So we got some new South 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.840 Wales parliamentary documents that show some of the caps can 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.839 spray launchers used by police are made by one of 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.840 Germany's largest arms manufacturers, Ryan Metal. I'm not one hundred 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.159 per sure what brand the Victoria police use at the moment. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.200 There have been a range of reports on that topic, 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.840 but certainly some of the legal observers at some protests 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:14.839 in late twenty twenty four, especially outside the Landforces Arms Expo, 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.160 which sort of faced a quite significant protests over a 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.640 number of days, observed the use of these flashbank kind 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:23.920 of devices as well, and you. 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.120 Know, it's pretty terrifying by all accounts. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:27.880 You know, I spoke to one police officer in the 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.040 United States who trains officers on how to use these tools, 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.520 and to his mind, they are a form of explosive 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.640 So you really have to make sure officers are trained 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.880 in their use and really consider the fact that if 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:41.560 you throw such a thing into a crowd, it can 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.599 cause panic, it can cause stampede and cause a range 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.360 of injuries, and I guess there's just very little accountability 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.080 or discussion about how police. 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:51.240 Are using these tools. 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.520 Coming up the people who are suing police over their 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:56.200 use of force. 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.239 I think that most Australians think. 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.760 That we do or we should have the right peaceful protest, 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:13.480 that being able to do that is an important and 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.520 normal part of living in a democracy. But in recent 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:20.120 years we have seen various state governments introduced laws that 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.080 restrict that right to protest. So can you tell me 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.120 more about that and about how that has in turn 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.240 affected the way that policing works. 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.960 I think Australia's attitude to protest I wouldn't say it 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.080 has ever been like one hundred percent friendly. If you 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.880 go and talk to protesters against the damning of the 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.640 Franklin River and Tasmania, you know there was continuous face 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.440 off with police over that. There have been protests, of course, 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.320 against various conflicts, but reports coming out of places like 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.200 the Human Rights Law Center have suggested there is a 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.960 growing crackdown and they are found at least forty nine 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.120 laws enacted by governments have constricted the right to protest 0:06:58.240 --> 0:06:59.680 over the past twenty years. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:01.960 If we look here in New South. 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.640 Wales, where I am our state may be considered to 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:08.200 have led the pack in that way. There's broad discretion 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.880 now for police to penalize people who disrupt major roads 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.680 or infrastructure. But there's a lot of discretion there for 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.400 police to decide what is a major road, what is 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.840 infrastructure when they can use these laws. Other states have 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.880 rolled out a suite of similar legislation. What was suggested 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.440 to me by a variety of lawyers and advocates is 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.920 this is creating a permissive environment for use of force 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.760 by police. We managed to get our hands on some 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.720 of the statistics. There has been an uptick in use 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.680 of force in general in New South Wales and also 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.880 you know hundreds of documented cases of use of OC 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:47.440 spray in Victoria. Again, when you're relying on police to 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.160 report use of force, it's not always an accurate record, 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.600 so it's a complicated space to get a really clear 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.640 picture of. But it does seem like use of force 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:56.840 in general is on the up. 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.640 So tell me about the data that you have managed 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.000 to gather about the increase in use of force against protesters. 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:04.560 This is really part of a trend. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:06.800 I know at this point of at least four settled 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.360 cases in Victoria. Since twenty twenty one, cases have been 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.720 brought against Victoria police and they have been settled over 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.840 the treatment of photographers and journalists, including the use of 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.880 OC spray. We also found there were at least seven 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.440 protesters alleging police violence who have active civil cases in 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.280 the Victorian County Court. There are a range of allegations there, 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:31.680 including a dislocated shoulder, burning painted testicles, caused by police 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.160 including through the use of OC spray or foam, and 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.959 what was claimed to be unnecessarily violent arrests and through FOI. 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.560 We did get data that showed in New South Wales 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.320 overall number of incidents where force has been used has. 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.160 Risen from almost eighty. 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:52.080 Twenty seventeen eighteen to more than nine thousand in the 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.760 last financial year, but that data couldn't be broken down 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:56.040 by protest scenarios. 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.280 We could see too that OC spray was used almost. 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:01.920 Nine hundred times in New South Wales in the past 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.040 financial year, as well as more than two thousand takedowns, 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:07.080 which is kind of where police might sweep the leg 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:08.920 out of somebody to get them to the ground as 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.480 part of an arrest, and we saw there too in 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:15.920 those stats, fifty four percent of those who had experienced 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.480 a takedown identified themselves as Aboriginal or Torres Strait islander. 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.600 And there is the obvious question then of what you 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.160 do if you believe you've been on the other end 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.160 of that, if you've been assaulted by a police officer 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.200 at a protest, where do you turn? 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:29.839 What do you do? 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.240 Yeah, it's definitely tough. Various states have different mechanisms for 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.520 making complaints. But I spoke to a law professor, Simon Rice. 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.920 He won a case against New South Wales police a 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.080 few years ago for assault, battery and false imprisonment. He 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.320 was thrown to the ground and arrested while observing a 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:50.600 student protest at Sydney University back in twenty twenty. In 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.319 his view, there was no really realistic way of complaining 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:57.040 about police overstepping the mark. They in general investigate themselves 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.760 if you complain directly. A lot of the oversight bodies 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:03.760 really take on only kind of systemic instances of police 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.520 misconduct or corruption. And again, as I mentioned, it's really 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:09.920 hard to get those sheer numbers, you know, after a 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.800 protest police often come out and announce how many people 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.760 were arrested at an event, but there's not really a 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.120 public record of how many times force was used, what 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:21.160 was used, what tools were used. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:22.439 And whether it was appropriate. 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.880 So that level of accountability is really difficult to obtain 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.720 without taking legal action, and so we did speak to 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.520 a number of protesters who feel their only. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.280 Option to get an outcome was to take it to court. 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.160 There's actually, in fact a class action currently underway in 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:43.400 Victoria about police use of OC spray back in twenty 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:48.040 nineteen at the I Mark Climate protest, so the outcome 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.840 there will be interesting because that will play out in public. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.160 We did, of course approach police in Victoria, New South 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.240 Wales when working on this story. Victoria Police told us 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.079 it makes no ologies for officers having to use force 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.800 to separate and safely disperse crowds during protests. They said 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.080 they don't attend protests with aim of using force, but 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.559 is always in response to the actions of protesters. 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.240 And what effect do you think all of this is 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:19.000 having this use of force protests, both on the individual 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:23.040 level on people who you know might go to protests 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.120 or you know, decide not to and expose as well 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.240 on the bigger level in terms of how you think 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:32.440 the very idea of protesting or going or peaceful protesting 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.600 is seen in Australia now. 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:35.960 Well, certainly people. 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:37.800 That have been affected by these tools. A lot of 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.600 the people I spoke with, you know, it remained with them. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:42.800 You know, if you get oc sprayed directly in the eyes, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.160 that type of pain, you know, you don't forget it quickly. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.800 I think it might you know, affect people's willingness to 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.080 share up and protest. It's part of this overall picture 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:53.920 of antagonism in some parts the media. 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:54.560 To protest. 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:58.240 We do have an implied right to political communication in 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.080 the Australian Constitution, which is a supporting protest for very 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.600 little positive war about that fact. I think some people 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.959 when they show up to protests might be surprised about 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.840 the kind of use of force that they're facing, because 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.520 again it's it's not well known that police have these 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:15.160 kinds of tools in general. 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.240 Well, Ariel, thank you so much for your time. 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:28.840 Thank you so much. Ruby. 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.000 Also in the news, the Abenezy government has backed down 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:41.040 on its superannuation tax plan following sustained criticism from sections 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.600 of the media industry and Politics Treasurer Dem Chalmers says 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.840 superannuation balances of three to ten million dollars will now 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.880 face a thirty percent tax on realized earnings, with a 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.000 new forty percent rate for accounts above ten million, both 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:55.000 indexed to inflation. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:56.520 It replaces the. 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.200 Government's earlier plan for a flat thirty percent tax on 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.680 earnings from all super accounts over three million dollars, including 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:06.679 on unrealized games and with no indexation. And Quantus is 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.199 facing potential heavy penalties after hackers leaked the personal data 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.560 of up to five point seven million customers online. The 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.240 airline was one of six global companies that were targeted 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:20.280 by cybergroup Scattered Lapsus Hunters, which released the information following 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.400 a ransom threat. The breach is believed to have originated 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:27.480 from one of Quantus' outsourced offshore call centers, exposing full names, 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.400 contact details, dates of birth, and even meal preferences. I'm 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.840 Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.