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Speaker 1: Appogia production.

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Speaker 2: Was Surveillance always a big thing for you guys, Like

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Speaker 2: when you have the target that us were after, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: how did you go about that?

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Speaker 1: Like to not be seen that? Like that was like

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Speaker 1: I still wonder how you do that? You know?

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Speaker 3: And I and again I don't know because I never

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Speaker 3: I did it. A couple when I was at Asian

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Speaker 3: we would do a couple ourselves. I would, let me

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Speaker 3: tell you, I was the worst at it, to the

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Speaker 3: point that when I went over from Cabramatta to Asian

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Speaker 3: Organized Crime, I was I wasn't the commander then I

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Speaker 3: was a chief inspector with this amazing team and I

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Speaker 3: said to them, you know, I don't have any idea

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Speaker 3: how to disurveillance. I'm you know, I'm been working at

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Speaker 3: a locally command and I don't know any of this secrets.

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Speaker 1: So he said, oh, we'll help you.

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Speaker 3: By the end, I had a team of twenty five

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Speaker 3: by the end that it's okay there, we're going out.

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Speaker 3: So your position is the McDonald's. So I was just

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Speaker 3: I said, is it the criminal coming here? Is that

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Speaker 3: where I need to be? When no, people just need lunch?

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Speaker 3: Later say you're really that's what they said they made

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Speaker 3: me away because I was so bad at it because

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Speaker 3: I'm a slow driver. Okay, so yeah, I'm a very

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Speaker 3: slow driver. So it was some point even when I,

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Speaker 3: you know, back in a detective at camera matter, when

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Speaker 3: you know, you'd see one of the stolen car with

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Speaker 3: one of my our usuals in it, I'd go and

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Speaker 3: I'd be, oh, no, you know, I'd call it, you know,

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Speaker 3: in pursuit of a stolen car, and they know I'm

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Speaker 3: going to lose this in about one hundred meters for sure,

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Speaker 3: because the one who's cheasing them, I was like driving

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Speaker 3: this daisy. And of course luckily I had these amazing

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Speaker 3: highway goals control like Husy, you know, way back from Fairfield,

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Speaker 3: and then I'd be waiting.

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Speaker 2: In pursuit, still in pursuit, like.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of traffic around, and then i'd hear,

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Speaker 3: you know, Hughsy come on the air and go I

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Speaker 3: got him dead. Or this amazing highway patrol bloke at

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Speaker 3: Fairfield who said put a little left, deb I've got him,

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Speaker 3: and I just seen him, and I swear this one

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Speaker 3: highway patrol blow never had a coffee cup out of

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Speaker 3: his hand, and he never stilled a drop and I'd

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Speaker 3: go and go got him deb and they'd be handcuffed

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Speaker 3: on the ground and I'd swear he's still got his

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Speaker 3: coffee in his hand.

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Speaker 1: I want you very much.

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Speaker 2: Do you think, like since you were in the force,

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Speaker 2: do you think things have gone better or worse? And

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Speaker 2: what you see now from the gangs out there and

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Speaker 2: all like that, it's got a lot worse now. No,

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 3: I think, like anything, it goes like ebbs and flows.

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Speaker 3: So you have if we go back, and you know,

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Speaker 3: it's about the moment you live in is obviously the

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Speaker 3: worst moment, you know, because you focused on it, I guess,

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Speaker 3: but you know, we go right back. You know, before

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Speaker 3: it was you know, we talked about the violence of

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Speaker 3: the Asian gangs. Remember that was the focus in the nineties,

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Speaker 3: and then we moved on and then it was the

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Speaker 3: focus of the Middle Eastern groups. You know, that was

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Speaker 3: in the early two thousands, and then you had the

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Speaker 3: focus of the outlaw motorcycle gangs. And now we're back

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Speaker 3: into the focus of you know, organized crime networks or

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Speaker 3: go again with that word. It's criminal networks we're seeing

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Speaker 3: again now. So it's just who you know, ebbs and

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Speaker 3: flows it can be whoever takes the opportunity.

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Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, would you think with the gone happy

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Speaker 2: with the gangs, it's going to be out of control.

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Speaker 1: That's what happens.

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Speaker 3: I guess when you do all the good work and

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Speaker 3: you take all the major targets out of play, you know,

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Speaker 3: because all the work the cops have done put all

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Speaker 3: these people behind bars for you know, decades, So then

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Speaker 3: you start to see the emergence of the next generation

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Speaker 3: and they come through and those that probably haven't got

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Speaker 3: because the leadership's all gone for what of a better word.

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Speaker 3: And I do think from what I'm seeing and the

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Speaker 3: cops are doing just such an amazing job to keep

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Speaker 3: its disruption happening. It's this And I don't know whether

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Speaker 3: it's fueled by the different drugs have changed, because you know,

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Speaker 3: we had the reel back in the with the Asians.

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Speaker 3: It was like a definitely don't use drugs. It's a

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Speaker 3: non drug thing. And I think even outlad motorcycle gangs

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Speaker 3: were much the same. And is it And I don't

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Speaker 3: have the answer, but we know we're seeing, you know,

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Speaker 3: a huge increase in it appears like the stuff you

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Speaker 3: see with young kids stealing cars. That whole is ice

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Speaker 3: having this huge change in mental dynamics about how you

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Speaker 3: do things and is it more about going out there

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Speaker 3: and putting things on social media notoriety? You know, I

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Speaker 3: worry that that's all about the five minutes of fame.

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Speaker 1: And I'll get it.

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Speaker 3: However I get it, and again I've moved on from

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Speaker 3: that world, of course, but I still you know, of

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Speaker 3: course you read it and they say, how would I

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Speaker 3: deal with that? And what I see with the cops,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're so lucky, so lucky in yourself house,

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Speaker 3: the best cops right around. I've got colleagues around the world,

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Speaker 3: and I think, what never, what I'm I'm amazed at

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Speaker 3: what I get inspires me is they never get beaten.

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Speaker 3: They never give up. They never say this is too hard.

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Speaker 3: They go, no, no, We'll just approach it a different way.

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Speaker 3: We'll come up with new new strategies and so we

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Speaker 3: never stop the work. Flag never goes up, and we

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Speaker 3: just we pivot and we look at what's a bit

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Speaker 3: like those amazing cops did at Rapta when you know

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Speaker 3: I went there and not know, you know, I knew

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Speaker 3: Asians back to front. I had seven years at Middle

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Speaker 3: East and so Bikey's was a new world. And I

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Speaker 3: just asked these amazing commanders of the different units to

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Speaker 3: you know, just teach me, teach me about what's a bikey,

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Speaker 3: what's that business model? And then let's just go about

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Speaker 3: destroying it all. And it was systematic.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: They had a later menu of about forty different strategies

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Speaker 3: that they said, well, this is the problem, and so

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Speaker 3: what we're going to drag out today, If we're going

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Speaker 3: to drag out all right, number forty two, twenty six, sixteen,

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Speaker 3: eighteen and two. They are the strategies we're going to

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Speaker 3: apply to this group, because that's what their business model was.

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Speaker 3: It was quite unique and it worked, and I think

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Speaker 3: that's what cops do today. They look at it the

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Speaker 3: problem and then they they very good at being flexible

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Speaker 3: and pivoting to get an outcome.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever get like, was it ever difficult going

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Speaker 2: to another state to get help from like the Victorian

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Speaker 2: police or gold Compolice.

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Speaker 1: Was everybody like came together to help.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? In fact, the best thing I think we did.

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Speaker 3: And I look back, you know, just again what happened

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Speaker 3: morphed I guessed in a way it was keeping away

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Speaker 3: the bureaucrats out of it and making our relationships a

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Speaker 3: lot operational. We set up this thing. It was a

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Speaker 3: National Task Force we called it, which is just a

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Speaker 3: fancy we're just saying, really we get together for a chat.

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Speaker 3: But what we did is my counterparts all around the

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Speaker 3: country would get together and it would be purely operationally focused.

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Speaker 3: Leave the egos at the door, and we'd say, what

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Speaker 3: you know, what problem have you got. For example, we

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Speaker 3: had this fantastic consorting legislation, so South Australia would say

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Speaker 3: we want that. Okay, this is and I'd we'd send

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Speaker 3: it to them and say this is how we drafted.

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Speaker 3: You've got to get through your parliament. But I say,

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Speaker 3: I love your firearms prohibition orders. Can I have that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll set it up.

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Speaker 3: So we did this whole range of sharing because no

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Speaker 3: one is you know, if you actually a silo, you'll fail.

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Speaker 3: It's about sharing crooks, you know, it's about keeping us relevant,

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Speaker 3: keeping us up to date and everyone. There's these thousands

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Speaker 3: of fantastic minds out there, and so it's not like

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Speaker 3: one personal company.

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Speaker 1: The idea it can be.

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Speaker 3: In fact, the way we destroyed the dismantled the clubhouse

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Speaker 3: and the biker clubhouses was done by a sergeant. A

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Speaker 3: sergeant came up and said, I found this old law

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Speaker 3: from nineteen forty three. I think if we got it

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Speaker 3: tweaked to bring it up to today, it'll work.

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Speaker 1: We said, yep.

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Speaker 3: Well, when I got there, I think there was one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty four out of motorcycle gang clubhouses in

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Speaker 3: the state by the time I left. Else three wow.

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Speaker 3: So and they were old school, you know. One was

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Speaker 3: the Gladiators, which was an amazing clubhouse. And we know,

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Speaker 3: I kept trying to convince the old timers of the Gladiators, like,

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Speaker 3: give up the one percent, guys, like this is amazing.

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Speaker 3: It was like an rasel had a pool. I'm in

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Speaker 3: ground pool, huge with tiny little mosaic tiles in the

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Speaker 3: pool of their insinnia.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: Gladiators River put a cost a fortune, but it was beautiful.

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Speaker 3: I get saying, guys, give up the one percent, be a.

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Speaker 1: Social club and we'll leave you alone.

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Speaker 3: I think they were tempted, but it was that stupid

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Speaker 3: idea of it's the tradition.

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Speaker 1: You know, Well, then, while you is it true that

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Speaker 1: you turned up at one of the baky clubs in

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Speaker 1: a nice Frock and Hayhills.

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Speaker 3: I always did.

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Speaker 1: That's how I dress you, so you never went in

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Speaker 1: any of the Raptor gear or anything like that. You

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Speaker 1: just would go in your Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Would me comes through the front door. But really I

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Speaker 3: had amazing cops to do that. But what I would

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Speaker 3: do with them, which was I think important, is not

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Speaker 3: for the biker so I couldn't care less about them.

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Speaker 3: But when these the Raptor guys are out there in

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Speaker 3: highly volatile potentially they are like where's we know everyone's

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Speaker 3: usually often got guns or they're not propency to violence.

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Speaker 3: So it was done like a military operation. So I'd

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Speaker 3: go out and it was more about saying to them

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Speaker 3: at the end, Hugh guys did an amazing job, and

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Speaker 3: then the investigators would come in. So it was really

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Speaker 3: just about you know, I'm not real good at sitting

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Speaker 3: behind a desk to I mean, I know that was

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Speaker 3: my role. You know, you move up so you have

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Speaker 3: to do more, you know, management, I guess, but I

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Speaker 3: was never I never lost the hunger to be on

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Speaker 3: the road, and so although I couldn't do it myself,

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Speaker 3: perhaps I'd go out and live through them, and it

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Speaker 3: was you're right there, was this one where we did

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Speaker 3: there was the nomads at weather Or Park and there

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Speaker 3: was a photograph. It was just the media were allowed

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Speaker 3: to come. And I was in a bright yellow dress.

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Speaker 3: And I remember someone from the media said to me,

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Speaker 3: so was that a clever tactic? I went what they said,

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Speaker 3: like you you know that day for the operation for

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Speaker 3: you to you know, they're all in black, the raptors

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Speaker 3: in black, bikes are in black, and you're.

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Speaker 1: In bright yellow. And I was just Friday and we're yellow.

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Speaker 3: There was no planning and you could have got me

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Speaker 3: any other day and I'd be in a purple dress.

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Speaker 1: Wow, because I read that and I was for wow,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: That's and also I read or too that did you

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Speaker 2: carry your block in your handbag?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well yes, because back in the day women were issued

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Speaker 3: handbags to carry that gunning. And look I had it

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Speaker 3: small screened as well. But yeah, I probably can say

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Speaker 3: it now it wasn't it's probably not. It was an

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Speaker 3: old It wasn't a glock. Actually it was back in

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Speaker 3: the day it was a Smith and Wisson. So the

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Speaker 3: clock probably wouldn't fit in the size handbag.

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Speaker 1: I hate.

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Speaker 3: But and sometimes you know, and I remember.

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Speaker 1: You didn't like to have it around your waist or

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Speaker 1: anything like that.

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Speaker 2: And you like to carry it in the hamburg or it,

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Speaker 2: which just wasn't for a police officer to do that

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Speaker 2: like a female.

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Speaker 3: No, No, they all know the police carry it, you

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Speaker 3: know absolutely, you know on their body.

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Speaker 1: No, it was just a habit.

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Speaker 3: It was just it was just how we used to

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Speaker 3: do it back in the day.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And even when I you know, things changed of course

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Speaker 3: with you know, operational health and safety and all that

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Speaker 3: sort of stuff. But back in the day, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's where.

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Speaker 1: We were worshiped.

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Speaker 3: We were worshiped handbags, and it was just a hangover

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Speaker 3: from that and I was much you know, we go

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Speaker 3: even when I went to the range sometimes, I mean,

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Speaker 3: poor old some of the weapons instructors probably.

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Speaker 1: Would be cringing now.

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Speaker 3: But this is back. You know, we draw lines and

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Speaker 3: things have changed. You couldn't do it now, absolutely, and

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Speaker 3: you would it. But you know, they say you have

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Speaker 3: to bring whatever you carry your guy, Like if you

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Speaker 3: have an angle hoole storey side arm, you have to.

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Speaker 2: I want to listen to the episode in four click

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Speaker 2: the link in the description.

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Speaker 3: Yeah,