WEBVTT - Protecting the ABC from Dutton

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<v Speaker 1>In January, Jonathan Holmes met with then Managing Director of

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<v Speaker 1>the ABC, David Anderson.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm not going to go into depths about what

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<v Speaker 2>was on the agenda.

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<v Speaker 1>It was David, Jonathan and some of his colleagues from

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<v Speaker 1>the group ABC Alumni. These meetings happened a few times

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<v Speaker 1>a year, and usually what happens at Ultimo stays at Ultimo.

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<v Speaker 3>They were confidential.

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<v Speaker 2>I've decided to release the snippet of that conversation because

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<v Speaker 2>he Davi is no longer managing direction, and it turns

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<v Speaker 2>out that he was precisely correct in what he said.

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<v Speaker 1>What he said was in response to a question did

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<v Speaker 1>Anderson think the Coalition had plans to cut the ABC's

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<v Speaker 1>funding if it won the election. The fear from Jonathan

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<v Speaker 1>and his colleagues was not unfounded. Successive Coalition governments have

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<v Speaker 1>made cuts to the national broadcaster over decades, and as

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Dutton now signals he's looking to cut anything he

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<v Speaker 1>deems to be waste at the ABC, alarm bells are

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<v Speaker 1>once again ringing from Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This

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<v Speaker 1>is seven AM Today. Chair of ABC Alumni and former

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<v Speaker 1>host of Media Watch, Jonathan Holmes and the coalition's plans

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<v Speaker 1>for the ABC and whether it's possible to truly shield

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<v Speaker 1>the national broadcaster from outside interference. It's Tuesday, April fifteen, Jonathan,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for joining me. What can you tell me about

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<v Speaker 1>your meeting with David Anderson back in January?

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<v Speaker 2>We were concerned that given what was happening in the

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<v Speaker 2>United States, where public radio and public television are both

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<v Speaker 2>under severe threats of being completely defunded at least by

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<v Speaker 2>the federal government, and where they'd already defunded a Voice

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<v Speaker 2>of Amara, their overseas radio service, and at that time

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Dutton was quite admiring of a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>things that Donald Trump was doing in the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>He's less so now, I think. We asked David, what

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<v Speaker 2>do you reckon if the coalition gets in, are we

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<v Speaker 2>likely to see actual defunding of the ABC, privatization which

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<v Speaker 2>news corporation we're calling for again as they have for decades?

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<v Speaker 2>And he said, no, no, no, they won't do that. What

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<v Speaker 2>they'll do is what they've always done, which is they'll

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<v Speaker 2>hold an inquiry into the efficiency of the ABC and

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<v Speaker 2>almost regardless of what the result is, they'll cut the

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<v Speaker 2>budget a bit and if that goes okay, they'll cut

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<v Speaker 2>some more of the following year and so on. He said,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the standard coalition approach.

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<v Speaker 1>He worked at the ABC for decades, Jonathan, starting in

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<v Speaker 1>the eighties. How many efficiency inquiries did you witness during

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<v Speaker 1>that time and what came out of them in the past.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't document them all, but Kim Williams in a

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<v Speaker 2>recent speech claimed that there have been fifteen since the

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<v Speaker 2>year two thousand and each one of them occupies the

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<v Speaker 2>finance department of the ABC in vast amounts of work

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<v Speaker 2>in you know, answering the same questions over and over again.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, one of the good ways of being efficient

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<v Speaker 2>for the ABC would be stop the bloody efficiency reviews

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<v Speaker 2>quite frankly, because they chew up so much time effort.

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<v Speaker 2>But before that, you know the Mansfield inquiry in ninety

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<v Speaker 2>ninety eight, nineteen eighty two, there was a Dicks inquiry,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was a whole succession of them at absolute

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<v Speaker 2>regular events. Sometimes the ABC comes out of them really well.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, there was four or five under Howard. One

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<v Speaker 2>of them was by KPMG that was asked to look

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<v Speaker 2>at the ABC sufficiency came back with the response that

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<v Speaker 2>said that the ABC was an extremely efficient organization and

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<v Speaker 2>in fact to do the job it needed more money.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course that wasn't what the how government wanted to hear,

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<v Speaker 2>so essentially they kind of suppressed it. I mean you

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<v Speaker 2>still can't get the full report. Quite often they would

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<v Speaker 2>actually make a cut, like an Abbott's government, they cut

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<v Speaker 2>the ABC and then they instituted an efficiency inquiry under

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Lewis to basically explore how it could possibly manage

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<v Speaker 2>to survive the cuts. And that's happened a couple of times.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, cut first and then enquire after.

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<v Speaker 1>So now we're in the thick of the electric campaign,

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Dutton has started talking about having another efficiency inquiry.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you just lay out for me what he has

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<v Speaker 1>said and what you thought as you were listening.

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<v Speaker 4>Peter Dutton's driving through Melbourne right now.

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<v Speaker 5>Good morning, Good morning Rath.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, look, when he was asked by Ralph Epstein on

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<v Speaker 2>Melbourne Morning Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>Being generous, but I have to ask, are you going

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<v Speaker 1>to cut the ABC's funding if you win?

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<v Speaker 2>Dunton said, and I'm quoting, well, I think there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of very good work that the ABC does and

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<v Speaker 2>if it's being run efficiently, then you would keep the

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<v Speaker 2>funding in place in place.

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<v Speaker 5>If it's not being run efficiently and there is waste,

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<v Speaker 5>then I think taxpayers who pay for it and who

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<v Speaker 5>are working harder than ever just to get ahead, would

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<v Speaker 5>expect us to you to not support the waste, but

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<v Speaker 5>to invest into areas where the ABC is doing things.

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<v Speaker 2>Epstein pushed him a bit to say, well, does that

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<v Speaker 2>mean a cut, and Dutton said, there's just going to

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<v Speaker 2>be a ruler run across where we're spending money in government.

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<v Speaker 5>And I want to make sure that we're spending government

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<v Speaker 5>money efficiently. In that way we can bring inflation down

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<v Speaker 5>and the dream of home ownership can be achieved more quickly.

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<v Speaker 5>Appreciate your time this morning, Thank you enjoying Melbourne. Thank

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<v Speaker 5>you Rafe Tekula.

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<v Speaker 3>And my reaction was here we go again.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, of course we should be efficient, and of course

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<v Speaker 2>we should be excellent, and of course the ABC should

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<v Speaker 2>and it should be a publicly accountable organization. But I

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<v Speaker 2>doubt that Peter Dutton watch his ABC drama. I doubt

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<v Speaker 2>he's ever watched Bay of Fires or Newsreader or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>any of this stuff. I doubt that he listens to

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<v Speaker 2>triple J. So you know, how are they going to

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<v Speaker 2>rate whether the ABC's excellence or not. It's a very

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<v Speaker 2>difficult task. I mean a lot of people who are

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<v Speaker 2>supporters of the ABC don't think though it's as excellence

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<v Speaker 2>as it should be in various areas. I spend quite

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of time by defending the ABC to its friends.

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<v Speaker 2>But you either think it's necessary, essential service that helps

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<v Speaker 2>Australian democracy or you don't. And frankly, on that score,

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<v Speaker 2>I would reckon that Peter Dutton probably doesn't.

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<v Speaker 3>And as Kim.

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<v Speaker 2>William said in his reaction, we are an efficient organization.

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<v Speaker 3>Go for your life.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think there's any doubt that in the event

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<v Speaker 4>of mister Dutton acceding to office, that there would be

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<v Speaker 4>a very early call for an efficiency and apparently an

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<v Speaker 4>excellence review on what the ABC does.

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<v Speaker 3>Game on.

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<v Speaker 5>The ABC is.

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<v Speaker 4>An accountable institution and I have no doubt it will

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<v Speaker 4>perform well in any such review.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the important thing to remember though, is that

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<v Speaker 2>however popular the ABC is, News Court will always attack it,

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<v Speaker 2>and a chunk of Coalition supporters will always attack it,

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<v Speaker 2>But so far most Australians trust it and value it.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break the ABC's new boss needs

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<v Speaker 1>to do to keep the broadcasters strong.

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<v Speaker 6>Hi Ruby Jones. Here, seven am tells stories that need

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<v Speaker 6>to be told. Our journalism is founded on trust and independence,

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<v Speaker 6>and now we're increasing our coverage. Every Saturday until the

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<v Speaker 6>election will bring you an extra episode to break down

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<v Speaker 6>the biggest political moments of the week. If you enjoy

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<v Speaker 6>seven am, the best way you can support us is

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<v Speaker 6>our work.

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<v Speaker 1>Donovan, you've seen, we've all seen successive cuts to the

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<v Speaker 1>broadcast over decades. Can you lay out for me how

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<v Speaker 1>the Albernesi's government's ring statement of funding has impacted the

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<v Speaker 1>budget as it stands.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, first thing is Albersi has not reinstated the budget.

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<v Speaker 2>He's managed very cleverly to persuade most of the public

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<v Speaker 2>les he has. What he's done is to restore the

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<v Speaker 2>loss of indexation under Turnbull and Morrison resulted in eighty

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<v Speaker 2>four million dollars less going to the ABC over those

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<v Speaker 2>three years than it would have done if its funding

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<v Speaker 2>had been indexed, and so Albansi promised in the previous

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<v Speaker 2>campaign to restore that money. But he's done a bit

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<v Speaker 2>more than that now he's actually raised the budget to

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<v Speaker 2>where it would have been if there hadn't been any indexation.

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<v Speaker 2>But the ABC is still in real terms somewhere between

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and fifty million and two hundred million dollars

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<v Speaker 2>a year worse off than it was in real terms

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty thirteen. So thanks very much Albansi government. At

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<v Speaker 2>least you've stopped us going backwards. But all the things

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<v Speaker 2>that Kim Williams wants to do with better documentaries and

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<v Speaker 2>better drama and all of this stuff, it ain't going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen unless we get more money.

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<v Speaker 1>What is the overall budget of the ABC? Just want

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<v Speaker 1>to get a sense of how significant the cuts have

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<v Speaker 1>been to the total size of the budget.

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<v Speaker 2>At the moment, the ABC's operating budget is around a

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<v Speaker 2>billion dollars. And on top of that, when you see

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<v Speaker 2>what the ABC costs, they always add the transmission costs,

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<v Speaker 2>which don't go to the ABC. They go to the

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<v Speaker 2>companies that own the broadcasting towers around the country, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's about another two or three hundred million dollars. What's

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<v Speaker 2>actually happened is that the ABC is producing far more

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<v Speaker 2>with less than it ever did. If you look at

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety, say that then it produced one television channel,

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<v Speaker 2>four national radio channels and practically nothing else. So now

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<v Speaker 2>it produces six television channels. I think it's about twelve

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<v Speaker 2>radio networks if you include digital as well as analog,

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<v Speaker 2>masses of online stuff on every kind of subject under

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<v Speaker 2>the sun, and podcasts, I think hundreds of podcasts, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just incomparably more for less money with less staff.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's the situation inherited by new managing director Hugh Mars,

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<v Speaker 1>who was just started in the role coming over from

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<v Speaker 1>the nine network. What challenges does he face as he

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<v Speaker 1>steps into the role?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh gosh, where to start?

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<v Speaker 2>It is, I would say one of the more challenging

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<v Speaker 2>jobs in the country. Everybody's got a view about the ABC.

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<v Speaker 2>Everybody knows what they would like to see. But of

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<v Speaker 2>course the first and biggest challenge for any CEO of

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<v Speaker 2>the ABC at the moment is recognition. Huge numbers of

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<v Speaker 2>people under forty never watch live television or practically never

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<v Speaker 2>accept maybe sport. A lot of the time they're getting

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<v Speaker 2>ABC content through YouTube or Apple News or whatever they

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<v Speaker 2>may not even be particularly conscious that it is ABC content.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean the days when everybody knew that Channel two

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<v Speaker 2>was the ABC and seven oh two was ABC Radio

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<v Speaker 2>in Sydney or seven and seven four in Melbourne, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean just long gone. So how do you justify your

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<v Speaker 2>existence and get this vitally important, impartial, objective news across

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<v Speaker 2>to a large enough number of people when there's nowhere

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<v Speaker 2>that they will automatically go. You've got to do a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of things that a lot of times.

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<v Speaker 1>Finally, Jonathan, is there any mechanism that could be formally

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<v Speaker 1>instituted to insulate the ABC from future political interference?

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<v Speaker 2>Michelle Rowland, the Minister for Communications in the Alberanzi government,

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<v Speaker 2>has held an inquiry precisely to look at that issue.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you make it harder for an incoming government

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<v Speaker 2>that isn't the same as the one that's outgoing to

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<v Speaker 2>stick to the commitments for the five year period.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the question that was answered.

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<v Speaker 2>We haven't got an answer, but look, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>fact is, in the Westminster system it's extremely hard to

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<v Speaker 2>stop an elected government from doing what it wants to do.

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<v Speaker 2>The Parliament is sovereign and it all depends on the

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<v Speaker 2>ABC earning the trust and rewarding loyalty sufficiently that it

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<v Speaker 2>retains the eighty percent kind of approval rating that it

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<v Speaker 2>has at the moment, and if that drops, then its

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<v Speaker 2>enemies will probably find a way of getting rid of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan, a fascinating discussion. Thanks for your time.

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<v Speaker 3>You're welcome.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today in the labor'st attempt to

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<v Speaker 1>court the youth vote. The Liberals yesterday released a disk

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<v Speaker 1>track on SoundCloud at just over one minute long, leaving Labor,

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<v Speaker 1>targets the cost of living crisis and is self described

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<v Speaker 1>as Kendrick meets Question Time. The track dropped as economist

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<v Speaker 1>level criticism at both Labor and the Liberals, saying that

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<v Speaker 1>both parties housing policies could inflame the housing crisis rather

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<v Speaker 1>than ease it. And the Greens have renewed their push

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<v Speaker 1>for free university and TAFE with the forty six point

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<v Speaker 1>five billion dollar policy to be funded by high taxes

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<v Speaker 1>on corporate giants. Green's leader Adam Band announced the policy yesterday,

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<v Speaker 1>saying it's a key priority they will push for in

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<v Speaker 1>a possible labor minority government. This has been seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening.