WEBVTT - Episode 29: Out Of Character 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Broman contains course 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:42.440 you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. In our 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:46.760 reconstructions of evidence and testimony from witnesses at the two 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.320 thousand and two in quest, you are hearing the actual 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:55.600 questions from John's sharpshooting lawyer, Craig Leggett, as well as 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.920 the police officer Matt Fordham, and of course the response 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.560 from the witnesses. We do not have the audio of 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.560 the original proceedings, so what you are hearing is coming 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.759 from the official transcripts of the five days of public hearings. 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:13.880 Now. 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.480 The voice actor for Craig Leggett in this podcast series 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:21.360 is a senior lawyer in Brisbane and a friend, Dan Williams. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.920 Subscribers who watched one of the three lengthy videos that 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.199 we released in early twenty twenty five would have seen 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:33.720 Dan Williams and Karina Berger talking about the recently renewed 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:39.479 police investigation. Dan expressed his view that the Unsolved Homicide 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:44.680 Unit was acting appropriately and almost certainly on solid police 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.680 legal advice by staying at arm's length from this podcast 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:53.040 investigation Dan explained that in the event of someone being 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.600 charged over Bromman's alleged murder, it would be crucially important 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.640 for police to demonstrate their independence and to show that 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:06.200 they had not been colluding with the podcast. Dan has 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:11.440 carefully considered the evidence in Broman's case. He and Maddie Walsh, 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:15.960 Karina Berger and many other volunteers and committed listeners are 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.520 a huge help behind the scenes in the Bromin series. 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.760 We are all very keen and determined to see that 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:29.000 the evidence back theory about Illiwong is tested. Only a 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.280 professional and intrusive search of the ground beneath the garage 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.079 and patio concrete at the existing and well established house 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:42.200 in Illawong can properly answer this theory. But should we 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:46.880 now try to undertake such a search ourselves, separately from 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:51.600 the State Coroner and the unsolved Homicide Unit. I went 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.480 to Dan's home shortly before this episode was finalized and 0:02:55.520 --> 0:03:00.760 we talked about next steps. It's about four months we 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.160 wrote to the State Coroner of New South Wales, Teresa O. Sullivan, 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.400 proposing that she used her powers to order a search, 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:15.760 particularly beneath the concrete patio slab and Garrard slab at 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.079 that house Inilla One where John was working in ninety 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:23.040 ninety three when Bromwin disappeared. We don't have a definitive 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.640 response yet in terms of what will happen there. What 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:31.480 are the risks of us doing what many listeners would 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.840 probably like us to do, which is go and knock 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.640 on the door and seek and receive the permission of 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:41.240 the owners to do our own excavation work there. 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:42.800 Well. 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.400 I think the first risk is that the police may 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.560 quite reasonably regard that as preempting or interfering with their investigation, 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.440 and that would be significant concern, But perhaps a little 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:53.920 bit more than that. I think if you did that, 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:59.880 then you've gotten yourself squarely involved in the process of 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.920 investigating the crime scene. You're a participant. Subsequently, it might 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.440 be suggested, perhaps wrongly and perhaps strategically, but it might 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:12.000 be suggested that there is a possibility that you have 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.760 changed the evidence, or even planted evidence on that site. 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.279 And you're referring to it as a crime scene. But 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.760 of course we don't know that's the case. We're only 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.560 suggesting that it looks possible. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.039 So when I say crime scene, I just mean a 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.640 place where there is a reasonable speculation that there might 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.720 be evidence there which is relevant to the prosecution of 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:33.159 a crime. 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:35.640 We're in a bit of a quandary as to what 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.000 we should do. What is your view? 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.839 Heavily the owners of the Yellar Wung property could authorize 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.080 you to do a search. They're in control of their 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.560 own property. But given that the reply from the coroner 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:52.520 does indicate that there is a current investigation by the police, 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.760 presumably assisting the coroner to make a decision about what 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.359 powers the coroner should exercise, I would be inclined not 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.680 to proach the owners for that purpose. The police could 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.080 establish it formally as a crime scene. They may have 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.080 even done that. Even if they don't formally establish it 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.360 as a crime scene. There are some other obligations and 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.400 restrictions which you need to be conscious of, and so 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.159 with the owners, and they are that it would be 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.039 unlawful for you to do anything which might hinder a 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:23.440 police investigation, and the police would be concerned about the 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.560 possibility that somebody else might interfere with the site, might 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.800 allow the suggestion that it's been changed in some way, 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.640 or in some way evidence which the police wanted to 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.680 recover had been contaminated. And so that would be a 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:39.960 very significant concern to the police, and I would be 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:42.560 confident that they would prefer you don't do that. 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:43.599 Now. 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:45.960 There may come a time when it becomes clear that 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.160 neither the coroner nor the police are going to take 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.480 the matter further, and at that point, I guess you 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.640 could revisit your options. Right at the moment, there's a 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.040 live investigation going on, there's a genuine possibility that the 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.800 police may have their own intentions in relation to the 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.839 Illawong site, and in those circumstances, I think it would 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.120 be prudent for you to take no steps. 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:11.159 What's the difference between this and using side scan sona 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.760 with Chris Darcy and his team at Lake Ainsworth, that 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:21.000 publicly accessible lake in Lenox when we were concerned about 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.680 the possibility of Bromin's body having been dumped there. 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.880 Very clearly Lake Ainsworth had not been designated as a 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.840 crime scene by the police. There's no suggestion that they've 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.680 ever shown any interest in that site. You must certainly 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.440 have not interfered with a crime scene or in any 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:38.600 way with the investigation. 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:44.080 And the pointers to Illewong are stronger than the pointers 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:46.040 to Lake Ainsworth. 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.719 Yes, I would say so the hypothesis that Lake Ainsworth 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:51.800 might be relevant was a reasonable one. It was certainly 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.080 worth having a look. The Illowong property might be a 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.840 crime scene. Clearly from the material that's come to light 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.280 so far, including through your podcast, there must be a prospect. 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.120 But that's where Bromin is. There is an unexplained period 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:10.600 of time when John first traveled to Sydney clearly had 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.120 access to the site. Some of his behavior on that 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.800 day as it emerged later is really a little bit 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.640 hard to explain. Speaking for me, I think there must 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.360 be a genuine possibility that Bromin's there. I would be 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:26.280 confident that the police reviewing the same data would be 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:27.680 likely to come to the same conclusion. 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:28.680 Yeah. 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:33.680 For me, it's significantly about those factors you mentioned, as 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.520 well as the timing of the concrete pause there. 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:42.840 Yeah, exactly nothing that you've uncovered so far would rule 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.160 out the possibility or even put it seriously in doubt. Personally, 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:47.920 I would think that it's a much more likely spot. 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.240 I'm going to talk to Andy and Karina Berger and 0:07:52.480 --> 0:08:20.480 Michelle about this and we'll reach a final decision. Craig 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.119 Leggett started with an attack on Andy's theory that John 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.200 might have disposed of Bromwin in the septic tank near 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:28.800 the Sandstone Crescent House. 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.319 You're aware of the seriousness of the allegation that you've 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.440 just stated under oath that it's your view that mister 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.600 Winfield put your sister in the septic tank and put 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.640 in acid and hydrate line. Are you aware of the 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:43.080 seriousness of what you're alleging. 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.880 I didn't allege. I said it was just a thought 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:51.440 that was discussed or that was thought of because I 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.480 was being constantly asked questions by Graham Diskin or by 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.720 all sorts of people and officers. Did I know of 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:01.600 what could have possibly happened to Bromwin? 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.559 When a loved one has been missing for years, speculation 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:12.360 and sometimes unlikely theories about a final resting place are inevitable. 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.240 As you heard in the previous episode and again just now, 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.360 Andy Reid was suspicious during the inquest in two thousand 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.720 and two that his sister had been dumped in nineteen 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.199 ninety three in a concrete container used for the treatment 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:34.839 of raw sewage. It's a horrible thought to even contemplate privately, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.480 let alone articulate in a hushed courtroom in front of 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:44.079 Bromwin's other family members and friends. John's lawyer was there 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.720 to hose down Andy's theory about the septic tank. Craig 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.960 Leggett would put it to Handy that septic tanks had 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:56.400 ceased to exist in Sandstone Crescent before nineteen ninety three. 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.640 As we now weigh the relatively new theory about Illawong, 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:06.040 the septic tank angle raised during the inquest in two 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:10.240 thousand and two is another timely reminder of the crucial 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.200 importance of evidence. When it comes to considering the possible 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:18.199 whereabouts of a final resting place for a missing person. 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:23.720 There will always be ideas, because there are potentially hundreds 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:28.400 of possibilities. We are limited only by our imagination in 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:32.880 this regard, but evidence of the direct and the circumstantial 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.760 kind pointing to a place should be taken more seriously. 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:39.000 Did you think that it would have been the proper 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.360 thing to do, before making a public allegation like that, 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.160 to inquire as to whether or not the sewerage in 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.720 fact is in Sandstone Crescent or whether there were septic 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:50.320 tanks in Sandstone Cresent. 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.720 Well, there is septic tanks at Sandstone Crescent. Was when 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.240 Bromwin lived there. I do also now know that the 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.880 septic tanks are no longer used. You probably might be 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.200 able to hit me with the right date, but I 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.520 reckon that might have happened around ninety six or something 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:07.920 like that. 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.440 Well, my instructions are that in nine to eighty three 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:13.760 eighty three, eighty three. 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.439 John's lawyer brought Andy to the verbal dispute Jody had 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:20.160 with Bromman on the Friday night. 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.320 And you're aware, aren't you? That Jody's recollection is that 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.520 the disagreement arose because Bronwin was going to leave the 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.439 children alone. That's right, isn't it? 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.920 Sorry, No, my recollection isn't that. 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.080 Craig Leger took Andy to a topic that he had 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:44.080 already suggested to several witnesses. It was a clear strategy 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:48.240 by John's lawyer to suggest broman was acting strangely just 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:49.920 prior to her disappearance. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.080 He put to Andy, if that, in fact was the 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.280 topic of the discussion, and if it was in fact 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.920 true that Bronwin was going out leaving the children at home, 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.920 would that have been in or out of. 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.920 Character for Bromwin to leave the children on their own? Yes, 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.400 Bromwin wouldn't have left the children on their own without 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.640 prior arrangements for someone to be looking after them. 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.880 Putting that another way, it would have been quite out 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.840 of character for the Bronwin that you know to have 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.120 left the children alone on the night of Friday, fourteen 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:27.600 May nineteen ninety three. 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.920 I don't see the relevance of whether the children were 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.840 here or there, or what they were doing on Friday night. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.199 No, whether you see the relevance or not with respect 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.920 doesn't matter. You're here to answer the questions. 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.600 Mister reed. Mister legis right. I'll decide the relevance. You 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.120 just answer questions. 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.000 Yes, I would say it's out of character. 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:55.559 Yes, out of character. Bronwin would have been behaving unusually 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.600 in your view, if that had in fact happened. Just 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.240 yes or no, we'll yes. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.600 John's lawyer had another strategy to pursue under instructions, no 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:07.720 doubt from John. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.600 And you now know, don't you that about five months 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.440 after you were born, your mother disappeared. You know that 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:19.120 for a fact, now, don't you? Yes? Your mother subsequently 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.240 reappeared in nineteen seventy five, didn't she. 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:22.200 Yes. 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.840 At no time in that ten year period did you 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.440 hear from your mother. That's so, isn't it? 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:30.440 I personally here? 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:35.760 No, Now, let me ask you this Bronwin's work history. 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.000 Can you remember a conversation with mister Winfield when you 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.520 told mister Winfield what happened with Bronlin at the Commonwealth Bank? 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.280 Bromwin never worked at the Commonwealth Bank. 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.080 Are you aware of a period of time when Bronwin 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:49.880 worked for a bank. 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.000 I'm quite sure she worked for Westpac on the corner 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.440 of Bathist Street and George Street in town. 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.480 And you know the circumstances in which she left the bank, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.719 don't you tell his worship? I remind you that you're 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:03.160 on oath. 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.400 The deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was paying close attention. 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:10.760 When is this what year? 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.440 This is when Bronwin is on my instructions? Around the 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:15.959 twenty years of age? 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:18.959 What before she met mister Winfield. 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.560 Yeah, just sit back and relax, mister reed, I'm writing 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:23.240 the show here. 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:24.920 You just answer the questions. 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.200 Yes, it was prior to meeting mister Winfield. 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.320 Karl had a question for John's lawyer. 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:33.080 Is there I relevance to this? 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:33.960 There? 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.800 Maybe you say you do not have any understanding of 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:39.440 why Bronwin left a job at the bank. 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.720 To the best of my knowledge, No, I don't know 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.560 the exact reason of. 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.680 Why she I'm asking for exact reasons. 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.360 I don't know the reason she seized her employment with 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.040 the bank. No, I don't. Sorry, I can't remember any 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.000 exact reason of why she ceased that form of employed. 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:06.200 I'm not asking for exact reasons. Can you remember unusual circumstances? 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.120 No, I don't. No, I don't know. 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.920 Let me move onto something different. Can you remember when 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.160 she worked from Mansours? 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:21.520 Andy replied, No, he didn't recall Bromwin working at Mansur's. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.200 Or a Manchester shop. Can you remember her working at 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:25.240 a Manchester shop? 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:26.040 No? 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:27.080 Sorry, I don't. 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:31.040 Can you remember any unusual circumstances in Bronwin's working life 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.080 relating to her leaving the employee of organizations? 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:38.520 Can I remember any unusual circumstances? No, I can't. 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.840 John's lawyer moved on from the matter of Bromwin having 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.040 left jobs in her early twenties. 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.720 Now the phone call of eight in May nineteen ninety three. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.520 Just before we go any further, mister Leggett, are you 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.960 going to take this matter any further or just leave it. 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.400 No, in light of the witnesses answers, No, I'm not well. 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.000 You realize that I placed absolutely no way to any 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:03.480 inference that might be raised from that. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:08.080 Yes, no, quite so, and I certainly wouldn't even think 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.760 to make submissions based on the current state of the evidence. 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:11.760 Thank you. 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.200 The mystery phone call at the hair salon into Cuts 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.760 where Jody worked, was the next subject for questioning by 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.880 John's lawyer. You'll recall that Andy went to the salon 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.920 after he'd heard about the phone call purportedly from Bronwyn 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.240 saying she was never coming back, and he questioned someone there. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.840 Craig Leggett wanted Andy to talk about his visit and 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:38.480 what he discovered that day. 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.920 The owner of the salon, according to my instructions, is 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.120 one Michelle Flanagan. Does that ring a bell with you? 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.720 Is that the person with whom you spoke or you 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:49.600 just can't remember. 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.360 I went down to the salon. I sat outside the 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:57.760 salon and waited for all the clientele to leave. Once 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.160 the last client had left, when over and knocked on 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:05.479 the door, introduced myself, told the lady who I was, 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.200 and said that I have reason to believe that there 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:10.600 was a phone call here today. 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.800 It was clear from speaking to that person that that 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.640 person thought genuinely that a telephone call had been received 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:20.200 from someone with a female voice. 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:21.080 Yes. 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.080 What was unclear to that person after you discussed it 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.000 with her was whether the female voice actually belonged to 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.520 Bronwin or not. Is that a fair summary? 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:30.920 Fair summary? 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:31.720 Yeah. 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.480 She couldn't say to me that it was one hundred 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.360 percent Bromwin. She just said a voice said to her 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:40.480 on the phone, this is Bromwin. 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.200 But what was not in doubt was the fact that 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.959 a telephone call had been received. That's so, isn't it. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:54.080 Yes, claiming that the person was Bromwin. I'm in Queensland. 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:55.520 I'm not coming back. 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:01.199 Craig Leggett sat down matt fordham Rose again. He wanted 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.040 to ask some follow up questions. 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.359 So, from your knowledge of Bronwin and her contact with Jody, 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.440 would Bronwin have known what days Jody worked at the salon? 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:11.440 Yes? 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.119 And are you certain of that or is this something 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:15.480 you're not quite sure about? 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:21.119 No, I'm positive I know that because I've had conversations 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:25.320 with Bromwin, and Bromwin knew what day Jody's rostered day. 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.800 Off was with the salon and all those sorts of things. 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.199 Can you think of any reason why Bronwyn would have 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.400 wrung the salon knowing that Jody wasn't working that day. 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:41.040 No reason at all. And his wife Michelle walked up next. 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.000 Matt Fordham raised again the topic of Bromwin having become 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.360 pregnant and her distress over having had an abortion at 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.560 the insistence of her husband John. 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.439 Well. Actually, I remember her saying to me that it 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.920 was very stressful because John's really upset about his mum, 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.840 and that she'd felt he was a lot of time 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.320 obviously with her and at the hospital. 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.840 And she said to me, then if anything happened. 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:12.000 She was always really worried about Crystal, particularly not so 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.880 much Lauren, that would we look after her if anything 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:16.480 happened to her. 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:22.200 It is important to clarify something here. Michelle has told 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:26.520 me that Bromwin loved her daughters equally. Michelle explained that 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.159 Bromwin was more worried about Crystal because John was not 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:35.040 Crystal's biological father, and Bromwin suspected that Cristel would not 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.240 get the same opportunities from John as her little sister 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.840 Lauren would receive. Bromwin wanted to ensure that the Reed 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.040 family would step in to look after Crystal in the 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:51.679 event of Bromwin not being there for her daughters. Matt 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.080 asked Michelle about another phone call she had with Bromwin 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.480 on March thirty one, nineteen ninety three, that's about a 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:04.639 week after Bromman had left the Sandstone Crescent House. Michelle 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.640 said that Bromin sounded very distressed. All she could talk 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.000 about on the phone was moving out and separating from John, 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.919 but Bromen sounded a lot happier. The next time they spoke, 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.640 Roman was settled with Crystal and Lauren in the new accommodation. 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.000 Did she indicate to you any sort of plans for 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:25.800 the future for her and the children? 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.800 As far as I knew they were out, they were 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.240 staying out. I said, like, you know, are you sure 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.200 you want to do this? Is this what you want? 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.320 It's going to be a huge thing. And I actually 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.160 asked her if there was any chance her and John 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:44.240 could go to a marriage counselor, and she just went 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:48.200 off a brain no way, I'm not there, no way, no, 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.480 flatly no, Like I was just kind of okay, I 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:53.680 won't suggest that again. 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.840 So from that, did it appear to you as though 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.320 she'd made up her mind or that she was still 0:20:59.320 --> 0:20:59.880 making up. 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.919 Her Oh no, no way, she was going back, No 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:05.000 way in the world. 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.399 You also say that you also remember Bronwin saying a 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:12.080 comment something like everything will be okay, you'll understand in 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:12.840 a few days. 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:14.000 Yeah. 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.360 Did you take those comments to mean anything? 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:18.520 That sort of took me aback. 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:20.960 I kind of didn't really know what she was getting 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:26.119 at at all, And in hindsight, I suppose, knowing that 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.560 she was going to a solicitor and that she was 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.280 trying to get property settlement and custody of the children, 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.720 that may have been what she meant that things would 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:37.760 work out her way. 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.200 Did you ever discuss any other options available to Bronwin, 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.280 such as her leaving the family completely, or going to 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.919 stay with a male friend, or going to live in 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.760 a commune somewhere, Any of those things ever come up 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:51.120 in your discussions with Bromwin. 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:53.199 That Bromwin herself was going to do that? 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:53.880 Yes? 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:57.919 No, do you believe that it would have been an 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.000 option that she would have entertained leaving the child? 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:02.680 Never? Never? Ever? 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.240 The police officer then took Michelle to her surprise meeting 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.119 with John when he showed up on her front doorstep 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.440 about four pm the day after Bromin's disappearance. 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:16.359 Do you remember what John's demeanor was at the time. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:17.440 Yes. 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.479 John was shaky, and I'm sure of what he was saying. 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:26.000 The first words that he said was Broman's left, and 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:29.080 I kind of thought, oh, well, he's here with the 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:29.760 two kids. 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:31.760 I got the shock of my life. 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.560 And the next thing, I sort of stepped outside and 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:37.639 I said allo to the kids, and the kids were 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.720 sort of shoot away so they couldn't hear anything. And 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:44.199 then he kind of said, oh, Bromin's going on a break. 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.000 It was like, that's what happened. She was going on 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:49.520 a break. She needed a break. 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:52.560 Was there ever any discussion with John about the things 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:54.800 that Browan may have taken from the house, such as 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:57.399 a suitcase or a bag or both or anything. 0:22:58.280 --> 0:22:59.600 I asked him what she took. 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:02.719 I was pretty surprised that Roman would just get up 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.240 and go out the door. And then he said he 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:08.680 didn't look. And I said to him, you didn't look. 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:11.720