Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Broman contains course
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. In our
Speaker 1: reconstructions of evidence and testimony from witnesses at the two
Speaker 1: thousand and two in quest, you are hearing the actual
Speaker 1: questions from John's sharpshooting lawyer, Craig Leggett, as well as
Speaker 1: the police officer Matt Fordham, and of course the response
Speaker 1: from the witnesses. We do not have the audio of
Speaker 1: the original proceedings, so what you are hearing is coming
Speaker 1: from the official transcripts of the five days of public hearings.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: The voice actor for Craig Leggett in this podcast series
Speaker 1: is a senior lawyer in Brisbane and a friend, Dan Williams.
Speaker 1: Subscribers who watched one of the three lengthy videos that
Speaker 1: we released in early twenty twenty five would have seen
Speaker 1: Dan Williams and Karina Berger talking about the recently renewed
Speaker 1: police investigation. Dan expressed his view that the Unsolved Homicide
Speaker 1: Unit was acting appropriately and almost certainly on solid police
Speaker 1: legal advice by staying at arm's length from this podcast
Speaker 1: investigation Dan explained that in the event of someone being
Speaker 1: charged over Bromman's alleged murder, it would be crucially important
Speaker 1: for police to demonstrate their independence and to show that
Speaker 1: they had not been colluding with the podcast. Dan has
Speaker 1: carefully considered the evidence in Broman's case. He and Maddie Walsh,
Speaker 1: Karina Berger and many other volunteers and committed listeners are
Speaker 1: a huge help behind the scenes in the Bromin series.
Speaker 1: We are all very keen and determined to see that
Speaker 1: the evidence back theory about Illiwong is tested. Only a
Speaker 1: professional and intrusive search of the ground beneath the garage
Speaker 1: and patio concrete at the existing and well established house
Speaker 1: in Illawong can properly answer this theory. But should we
Speaker 1: now try to undertake such a search ourselves, separately from
Speaker 1: the State Coroner and the unsolved Homicide Unit. I went
Speaker 1: to Dan's home shortly before this episode was finalized and
Speaker 1: we talked about next steps. It's about four months we
Speaker 1: wrote to the State Coroner of New South Wales, Teresa O. Sullivan,
Speaker 1: proposing that she used her powers to order a search,
Speaker 1: particularly beneath the concrete patio slab and Garrard slab at
Speaker 1: that house Inilla One where John was working in ninety
Speaker 1: ninety three when Bromwin disappeared. We don't have a definitive
Speaker 1: response yet in terms of what will happen there. What
Speaker 1: are the risks of us doing what many listeners would
Speaker 1: probably like us to do, which is go and knock
Speaker 1: on the door and seek and receive the permission of
Speaker 1: the owners to do our own excavation work there.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: I think the first risk is that the police may
Speaker 3: quite reasonably regard that as preempting or interfering with their investigation,
Speaker 3: and that would be significant concern, But perhaps a little
Speaker 3: bit more than that. I think if you did that,
Speaker 3: then you've gotten yourself squarely involved in the process of
Speaker 3: investigating the crime scene. You're a participant. Subsequently, it might
Speaker 3: be suggested, perhaps wrongly and perhaps strategically, but it might
Speaker 3: be suggested that there is a possibility that you have
Speaker 3: changed the evidence, or even planted evidence on that site.
Speaker 1: And you're referring to it as a crime scene. But
Speaker 1: of course we don't know that's the case. We're only
Speaker 1: suggesting that it looks possible.
Speaker 3: So when I say crime scene, I just mean a
Speaker 3: place where there is a reasonable speculation that there might
Speaker 3: be evidence there which is relevant to the prosecution of
Speaker 3: a crime.
Speaker 1: We're in a bit of a quandary as to what
Speaker 1: we should do. What is your view?
Speaker 3: Heavily the owners of the Yellar Wung property could authorize
Speaker 3: you to do a search. They're in control of their
Speaker 3: own property. But given that the reply from the coroner
Speaker 3: does indicate that there is a current investigation by the police,
Speaker 3: presumably assisting the coroner to make a decision about what
Speaker 3: powers the coroner should exercise, I would be inclined not
Speaker 3: to proach the owners for that purpose. The police could
Speaker 3: establish it formally as a crime scene. They may have
Speaker 3: even done that. Even if they don't formally establish it
Speaker 3: as a crime scene. There are some other obligations and
Speaker 3: restrictions which you need to be conscious of, and so
Speaker 3: with the owners, and they are that it would be
Speaker 3: unlawful for you to do anything which might hinder a
Speaker 3: police investigation, and the police would be concerned about the
Speaker 3: possibility that somebody else might interfere with the site, might
Speaker 3: allow the suggestion that it's been changed in some way,
Speaker 3: or in some way evidence which the police wanted to
Speaker 3: recover had been contaminated. And so that would be a
Speaker 3: very significant concern to the police, and I would be
Speaker 3: confident that they would prefer you don't do that.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: There may come a time when it becomes clear that
Speaker 3: neither the coroner nor the police are going to take
Speaker 3: the matter further, and at that point, I guess you
Speaker 3: could revisit your options. Right at the moment, there's a
Speaker 3: live investigation going on, there's a genuine possibility that the
Speaker 3: police may have their own intentions in relation to the
Speaker 3: Illawong site, and in those circumstances, I think it would
Speaker 3: be prudent for you to take no steps.
Speaker 1: What's the difference between this and using side scan sona
Speaker 1: with Chris Darcy and his team at Lake Ainsworth, that
Speaker 1: publicly accessible lake in Lenox when we were concerned about
Speaker 1: the possibility of Bromin's body having been dumped there.
Speaker 3: Very clearly Lake Ainsworth had not been designated as a
Speaker 3: crime scene by the police. There's no suggestion that they've
Speaker 3: ever shown any interest in that site. You must certainly
Speaker 3: have not interfered with a crime scene or in any
Speaker 3: way with the investigation.
Speaker 1: And the pointers to Illewong are stronger than the pointers
Speaker 1: to Lake Ainsworth.
Speaker 3: Yes, I would say so the hypothesis that Lake Ainsworth
Speaker 3: might be relevant was a reasonable one. It was certainly
Speaker 3: worth having a look. The Illowong property might be a
Speaker 3: crime scene. Clearly from the material that's come to light
Speaker 3: so far, including through your podcast, there must be a prospect.
Speaker 3: But that's where Bromin is. There is an unexplained period
Speaker 3: of time when John first traveled to Sydney clearly had
Speaker 3: access to the site. Some of his behavior on that
Speaker 3: day as it emerged later is really a little bit
Speaker 3: hard to explain. Speaking for me, I think there must
Speaker 3: be a genuine possibility that Bromin's there. I would be
Speaker 3: confident that the police reviewing the same data would be
Speaker 3: likely to come to the same conclusion.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: For me, it's significantly about those factors you mentioned, as
Speaker 1: well as the timing of the concrete pause there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly nothing that you've uncovered so far would rule
Speaker 3: out the possibility or even put it seriously in doubt. Personally,
Speaker 3: I would think that it's a much more likely spot.
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to Andy and Karina Berger and
Speaker 1: Michelle about this and we'll reach a final decision. Craig
Speaker 1: Leggett started with an attack on Andy's theory that John
Speaker 1: might have disposed of Bromwin in the septic tank near
Speaker 1: the Sandstone Crescent House.
Speaker 3: You're aware of the seriousness of the allegation that you've
Speaker 3: just stated under oath that it's your view that mister
Speaker 3: Winfield put your sister in the septic tank and put
Speaker 3: in acid and hydrate line. Are you aware of the
Speaker 3: seriousness of what you're alleging.
Speaker 4: I didn't allege. I said it was just a thought
Speaker 4: that was discussed or that was thought of because I
Speaker 4: was being constantly asked questions by Graham Diskin or by
Speaker 4: all sorts of people and officers. Did I know of
Speaker 4: what could have possibly happened to Bromwin?
Speaker 1: When a loved one has been missing for years, speculation
Speaker 1: and sometimes unlikely theories about a final resting place are inevitable.
Speaker 1: As you heard in the previous episode and again just now,
Speaker 1: Andy Reid was suspicious during the inquest in two thousand
Speaker 1: and two that his sister had been dumped in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three in a concrete container used for the treatment
Speaker 1: of raw sewage. It's a horrible thought to even contemplate privately,
Speaker 1: let alone articulate in a hushed courtroom in front of
Speaker 1: Bromwin's other family members and friends. John's lawyer was there
Speaker 1: to hose down Andy's theory about the septic tank. Craig
Speaker 1: Leggett would put it to Handy that septic tanks had
Speaker 1: ceased to exist in Sandstone Crescent before nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 1: As we now weigh the relatively new theory about Illawong,
Speaker 1: the septic tank angle raised during the inquest in two
Speaker 1: thousand and two is another timely reminder of the crucial
Speaker 1: importance of evidence. When it comes to considering the possible
Speaker 1: whereabouts of a final resting place for a missing person.
Speaker 1: There will always be ideas, because there are potentially hundreds
Speaker 1: of possibilities. We are limited only by our imagination in
Speaker 1: this regard, but evidence of the direct and the circumstantial
Speaker 1: kind pointing to a place should be taken more seriously.
Speaker 3: Did you think that it would have been the proper
Speaker 3: thing to do, before making a public allegation like that,
Speaker 3: to inquire as to whether or not the sewerage in
Speaker 3: fact is in Sandstone Crescent or whether there were septic
Speaker 3: tanks in Sandstone Cresent.
Speaker 4: Well, there is septic tanks at Sandstone Crescent. Was when
Speaker 4: Bromwin lived there. I do also now know that the
Speaker 4: septic tanks are no longer used. You probably might be
Speaker 4: able to hit me with the right date, but I
Speaker 4: reckon that might have happened around ninety six or something
Speaker 4: like that.
Speaker 3: Well, my instructions are that in nine to eighty three
Speaker 3: eighty three, eighty three.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer brought Andy to the verbal dispute Jody had
Speaker 1: with Bromman on the Friday night.
Speaker 3: And you're aware, aren't you? That Jody's recollection is that
Speaker 3: the disagreement arose because Bronwin was going to leave the
Speaker 3: children alone. That's right, isn't it?
Speaker 4: Sorry, No, my recollection isn't that.
Speaker 1: Craig Leger took Andy to a topic that he had
Speaker 1: already suggested to several witnesses. It was a clear strategy
Speaker 1: by John's lawyer to suggest broman was acting strangely just
Speaker 1: prior to her disappearance.
Speaker 3: He put to Andy, if that, in fact was the
Speaker 3: topic of the discussion, and if it was in fact
Speaker 3: true that Bronwin was going out leaving the children at home,
Speaker 3: would that have been in or out of.
Speaker 4: Character for Bromwin to leave the children on their own? Yes,
Speaker 4: Bromwin wouldn't have left the children on their own without
Speaker 4: prior arrangements for someone to be looking after them.
Speaker 3: Putting that another way, it would have been quite out
Speaker 3: of character for the Bronwin that you know to have
Speaker 3: left the children alone on the night of Friday, fourteen
Speaker 3: May nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 4: I don't see the relevance of whether the children were
Speaker 4: here or there, or what they were doing on Friday night.
Speaker 3: No, whether you see the relevance or not with respect
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. You're here to answer the questions.
Speaker 5: Mister reed. Mister legis right. I'll decide the relevance. You
Speaker 5: just answer questions.
Speaker 4: Yes, I would say it's out of character.
Speaker 3: Yes, out of character. Bronwin would have been behaving unusually
Speaker 3: in your view, if that had in fact happened. Just
Speaker 3: yes or no, we'll yes.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer had another strategy to pursue under instructions, no
Speaker 1: doubt from John.
Speaker 3: And you now know, don't you that about five months
Speaker 3: after you were born, your mother disappeared. You know that
Speaker 3: for a fact, now, don't you? Yes? Your mother subsequently
Speaker 3: reappeared in nineteen seventy five, didn't she.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 3: At no time in that ten year period did you
Speaker 3: hear from your mother. That's so, isn't it?
Speaker 4: I personally here?
Speaker 3: No, Now, let me ask you this Bronwin's work history.
Speaker 3: Can you remember a conversation with mister Winfield when you
Speaker 3: told mister Winfield what happened with Bronlin at the Commonwealth Bank?
Speaker 4: Bromwin never worked at the Commonwealth Bank.
Speaker 3: Are you aware of a period of time when Bronwin
Speaker 3: worked for a bank.
Speaker 4: I'm quite sure she worked for Westpac on the corner
Speaker 4: of Bathist Street and George Street in town.
Speaker 3: And you know the circumstances in which she left the bank,
Speaker 3: don't you tell his worship? I remind you that you're
Speaker 3: on oath.
Speaker 1: The deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was paying close attention.
Speaker 6: When is this what year?
Speaker 3: This is when Bronwin is on my instructions? Around the
Speaker 3: twenty years of age?
Speaker 6: What before she met mister Winfield.
Speaker 5: Yeah, just sit back and relax, mister reed, I'm writing
Speaker 5: the show here.
Speaker 6: You just answer the questions.
Speaker 3: Yes, it was prior to meeting mister Winfield.
Speaker 1: Karl had a question for John's lawyer.
Speaker 6: Is there I relevance to this?
Speaker 7: There?
Speaker 3: Maybe you say you do not have any understanding of
Speaker 3: why Bronwin left a job at the bank.
Speaker 4: To the best of my knowledge, No, I don't know
Speaker 4: the exact reason of.
Speaker 3: Why she I'm asking for exact reasons.
Speaker 4: I don't know the reason she seized her employment with
Speaker 4: the bank. No, I don't. Sorry, I can't remember any
Speaker 4: exact reason of why she ceased that form of employed.
Speaker 3: I'm not asking for exact reasons. Can you remember unusual circumstances?
Speaker 4: No, I don't. No, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Let me move onto something different. Can you remember when
Speaker 3: she worked from Mansours?
Speaker 1: Andy replied, No, he didn't recall Bromwin working at Mansur's.
Speaker 3: Or a Manchester shop. Can you remember her working at
Speaker 3: a Manchester shop?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: Sorry, I don't.
Speaker 3: Can you remember any unusual circumstances in Bronwin's working life
Speaker 3: relating to her leaving the employee of organizations?
Speaker 4: Can I remember any unusual circumstances? No, I can't.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer moved on from the matter of Bromwin having
Speaker 1: left jobs in her early twenties.
Speaker 3: Now the phone call of eight in May nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 5: Just before we go any further, mister Leggett, are you
Speaker 5: going to take this matter any further or just leave it.
Speaker 3: No, in light of the witnesses answers, No, I'm not well.
Speaker 5: You realize that I placed absolutely no way to any
Speaker 5: inference that might be raised from that.
Speaker 3: Yes, no, quite so, and I certainly wouldn't even think
Speaker 3: to make submissions based on the current state of the evidence.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: The mystery phone call at the hair salon into Cuts
Speaker 1: where Jody worked, was the next subject for questioning by
Speaker 1: John's lawyer. You'll recall that Andy went to the salon
Speaker 1: after he'd heard about the phone call purportedly from Bronwyn
Speaker 1: saying she was never coming back, and he questioned someone there.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett wanted Andy to talk about his visit and
Speaker 1: what he discovered that day.
Speaker 3: The owner of the salon, according to my instructions, is
Speaker 3: one Michelle Flanagan. Does that ring a bell with you?
Speaker 3: Is that the person with whom you spoke or you
Speaker 3: just can't remember.
Speaker 4: I went down to the salon. I sat outside the
Speaker 4: salon and waited for all the clientele to leave. Once
Speaker 4: the last client had left, when over and knocked on
Speaker 4: the door, introduced myself, told the lady who I was,
Speaker 4: and said that I have reason to believe that there
Speaker 4: was a phone call here today.
Speaker 3: It was clear from speaking to that person that that
Speaker 3: person thought genuinely that a telephone call had been received
Speaker 3: from someone with a female voice.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: What was unclear to that person after you discussed it
Speaker 3: with her was whether the female voice actually belonged to
Speaker 3: Bronwin or not. Is that a fair summary?
Speaker 4: Fair summary?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: She couldn't say to me that it was one hundred
Speaker 4: percent Bromwin. She just said a voice said to her
Speaker 4: on the phone, this is Bromwin.
Speaker 3: But what was not in doubt was the fact that
Speaker 3: a telephone call had been received. That's so, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Yes, claiming that the person was Bromwin. I'm in Queensland.
Speaker 4: I'm not coming back.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett sat down matt fordham Rose again. He wanted
Speaker 1: to ask some follow up questions.
Speaker 6: So, from your knowledge of Bronwin and her contact with Jody,
Speaker 6: would Bronwin have known what days Jody worked at the salon?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 6: And are you certain of that or is this something
Speaker 6: you're not quite sure about?
Speaker 4: No, I'm positive I know that because I've had conversations
Speaker 4: with Bromwin, and Bromwin knew what day Jody's rostered day.
Speaker 4: Off was with the salon and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 6: Can you think of any reason why Bronwyn would have
Speaker 6: wrung the salon knowing that Jody wasn't working that day.
Speaker 1: No reason at all. And his wife Michelle walked up next.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham raised again the topic of Bromwin having become
Speaker 1: pregnant and her distress over having had an abortion at
Speaker 1: the insistence of her husband John.
Speaker 7: Well. Actually, I remember her saying to me that it
Speaker 7: was very stressful because John's really upset about his mum,
Speaker 7: and that she'd felt he was a lot of time
Speaker 7: obviously with her and at the hospital.
Speaker 8: And she said to me, then if anything happened.
Speaker 7: She was always really worried about Crystal, particularly not so
Speaker 7: much Lauren, that would we look after her if anything
Speaker 7: happened to her.
Speaker 1: It is important to clarify something here. Michelle has told
Speaker 1: me that Bromwin loved her daughters equally. Michelle explained that
Speaker 1: Bromwin was more worried about Crystal because John was not
Speaker 1: Crystal's biological father, and Bromwin suspected that Cristel would not
Speaker 1: get the same opportunities from John as her little sister
Speaker 1: Lauren would receive. Bromwin wanted to ensure that the Reed
Speaker 1: family would step in to look after Crystal in the
Speaker 1: event of Bromwin not being there for her daughters. Matt
Speaker 1: asked Michelle about another phone call she had with Bromwin
Speaker 1: on March thirty one, nineteen ninety three, that's about a
Speaker 1: week after Bromman had left the Sandstone Crescent House. Michelle
Speaker 1: said that Bromin sounded very distressed. All she could talk
Speaker 1: about on the phone was moving out and separating from John,
Speaker 1: but Bromen sounded a lot happier. The next time they spoke,
Speaker 1: Roman was settled with Crystal and Lauren in the new accommodation.
Speaker 6: Did she indicate to you any sort of plans for
Speaker 6: the future for her and the children?
Speaker 7: As far as I knew they were out, they were
Speaker 7: staying out. I said, like, you know, are you sure
Speaker 7: you want to do this? Is this what you want?
Speaker 7: It's going to be a huge thing. And I actually
Speaker 7: asked her if there was any chance her and John
Speaker 7: could go to a marriage counselor, and she just went
Speaker 7: off a brain no way, I'm not there, no way, no,
Speaker 7: flatly no, Like I was just kind of okay, I
Speaker 7: won't suggest that again.
Speaker 6: So from that, did it appear to you as though
Speaker 6: she'd made up her mind or that she was still
Speaker 6: making up.
Speaker 7: Her Oh no, no way, she was going back, No
Speaker 7: way in the world.
Speaker 6: You also say that you also remember Bronwin saying a
Speaker 6: comment something like everything will be okay, you'll understand in
Speaker 6: a few days.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Did you take those comments to mean anything?
Speaker 8: That sort of took me aback.
Speaker 7: I kind of didn't really know what she was getting
Speaker 7: at at all, And in hindsight, I suppose, knowing that
Speaker 7: she was going to a solicitor and that she was
Speaker 7: trying to get property settlement and custody of the children,
Speaker 7: that may have been what she meant that things would
Speaker 7: work out her way.
Speaker 6: Did you ever discuss any other options available to Bronwin,
Speaker 6: such as her leaving the family completely, or going to
Speaker 6: stay with a male friend, or going to live in
Speaker 6: a commune somewhere, Any of those things ever come up
Speaker 6: in your discussions with Bromwin.
Speaker 8: That Bromwin herself was going to do that?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 6: No, do you believe that it would have been an
Speaker 6: option that she would have entertained leaving the child?
Speaker 8: Never? Never? Ever?
Speaker 1: The police officer then took Michelle to her surprise meeting
Speaker 1: with John when he showed up on her front doorstep
Speaker 1: about four pm the day after Bromin's disappearance.
Speaker 6: Do you remember what John's demeanor was at the time.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 7: John was shaky, and I'm sure of what he was saying.
Speaker 7: The first words that he said was Broman's left, and
Speaker 7: I kind of thought, oh, well, he's here with the
Speaker 7: two kids.
Speaker 8: I got the shock of my life.
Speaker 7: And the next thing, I sort of stepped outside and
Speaker 7: I said allo to the kids, and the kids were
Speaker 7: sort of shoot away so they couldn't hear anything. And
Speaker 7: then he kind of said, oh, Bromin's going on a break.
Speaker 7: It was like, that's what happened. She was going on
Speaker 7: a break. She needed a break.
Speaker 6: Was there ever any discussion with John about the things
Speaker 6: that Browan may have taken from the house, such as
Speaker 6: a suitcase or a bag or both or anything.
Speaker 8: I asked him what she took.
Speaker 7: I was pretty surprised that Roman would just get up
Speaker 7: and go out the door. And then he said he
Speaker 7: didn't look. And I said to him, you didn't look.
Speaker 7: Your wife was walking out the front door, and you
Speaker 7: didn't look to see who she was going with. Or
Speaker 7: what she had, and he said no, Well I couldn't
Speaker 7: believe that either.
Speaker 1: Michelle recalled asking John why he had left in such
Speaker 1: a hurry. That's when John produced the petrol receipt from Ballina.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Michelle if they had discussed any further
Speaker 1: John's sudden drive away from his home at Lennox Head.
Speaker 7: Well, I'd said to him, because I ask a lot
Speaker 7: of questions. So I said to him, what time did
Speaker 7: Bromin leave? And he said, oh, I don't know about
Speaker 7: quarter past I passed in. I think that was what
Speaker 7: he told me originally, although that's not what keeps getting
Speaker 7: said the rest of the time. And I said to him,
Speaker 7: so you just packed up and left. And we were
Speaker 7: at this point, I think, getting things out of the car,
Speaker 7: like the boot of the car and trying to get
Speaker 7: the clothing for the kids.
Speaker 8: And we walked back in the house and into my kitchen.
Speaker 7: He fished out of his wallet a receipt which he
Speaker 7: showed me, and it had eleven o six was a
Speaker 7: petrol receipt. And I said, why did you leave in
Speaker 7: such a hurry?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 8: It was like half an hour later he said.
Speaker 7: He was getting petrol, and he said his reason was
Speaker 7: the kids travel better at nighttime.
Speaker 1: The boot of the Ford Falcon car was clearly on
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham's mind. He must have been considering the possibility
Speaker 1: of Bromwin's body having been there. Michelle replied that she
Speaker 1: remembered seeing pillow cases stuffed with clothing and a small bag.
Speaker 1: She did not remember seeing any suitcase or heavy objects
Speaker 1: in the car or in the boot. When Michelle asked
Speaker 1: John what he had been up to that day and said,
Speaker 1: he mentioned that he needed to get the car registered
Speaker 1: as soon as he arrived.
Speaker 6: Did he say that he'd been anywhere else in Sydney,
Speaker 6: Not that I remember. Did he indicate to you?
Speaker 8: I know he had a job to go to.
Speaker 7: There was some sort of job that he was working at,
Speaker 7: but I don't know if he.
Speaker 6: Went there, And did he indicate to you when he
Speaker 6: arrived in Sydney.
Speaker 8: He said he got there that morning, and.
Speaker 6: Did he indicate whether it was early in the morning
Speaker 6: or in the late morning or anything like that.
Speaker 7: Actually he did say he had to wait for the
Speaker 7: registration place to open, so I don't know what time,
Speaker 7: probably nine o'clock.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked Michelle to talk about phone calls
Speaker 1: John Winfield made to her and the weeks after Browin
Speaker 1: went missing, John was seeking advice about how to care
Speaker 1: for the two girls.
Speaker 7: Yes, I was at home with Mitchell. He was newborn,
Speaker 7: and I was home most of the time. Well, I
Speaker 7: was home all of the time, really, and John used
Speaker 7: to ring up, and I'd ring up there too and
Speaker 7: see how everyone was going. And yeah, he'd just asked
Speaker 7: little questions about lunches and John never really in the
Speaker 7: time that I've known Bromin and John, I've never known John.
Speaker 8: To look after the kids.
Speaker 7: When I first met him, he worked a gabo's run
Speaker 7: in the morning and then went to do bricklaying. He
Speaker 7: was never there, so he was asking me lots of
Speaker 7: questions about the kids and things.
Speaker 6: Over the years. Have you ever known Bronwin to leave
Speaker 6: the children for a period of time, to go away somewhere,
Speaker 6: or to leave him in someone else's care for a
Speaker 6: period of time.
Speaker 7: No, she was always with the kids always.
Speaker 6: I don't know whether you know the answer to this
Speaker 6: or not. But in nineteen ninety three, do you know
Speaker 6: how much Bronwin would have weighed?
Speaker 7: She was tall and thin, fifty kilos something like that.
Speaker 1: Then there was the recounting of a conversation Michelle had
Speaker 1: with Jody shortly after the birth of Michelle's son, Mitchell
Speaker 1: in late March nineteen ninety three. Michelle wanted to know
Speaker 1: about her sister in law Bromwin's relationship with John. She
Speaker 1: asked Jody if Bromwin and John argued a lot. Michelle
Speaker 1: recalled Jody telling her that Jody had witnessed John picked
Speaker 1: Bromwin up while Bromwin was sitting in a chair. He
Speaker 1: held the chair with her in it in the air,
Speaker 1: and then he dropped her. Michelle also recalled the phone
Speaker 1: conversation John had with her and Andy in July nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three, the one in which John said Bromwin must
Speaker 1: have come back to the house because a Medicare check
Speaker 1: with her signature had been left on the table, and
Speaker 1: Michelle recalled John saying that Bromwin must have had a
Speaker 1: man with her because a pair of his jeans and
Speaker 1: a jumper were missing from the house. Matt Forden was
Speaker 1: almost done. He took Michelle back to the boot of
Speaker 1: the family's ford Falcon car on the Monday afternoon. When
Speaker 1: John arrived at the Reed home in Sydney, and then.
Speaker 6: There's the discussion about the clothes that have been arranged
Speaker 6: for the children. Were you able to determine then what
Speaker 6: the source of those clothes was.
Speaker 7: He said that when he got home, or when he
Speaker 7: got up there and packed because Rominham moved in, there
Speaker 7: were I don't know, boxes or crates or something, but anyway,
Speaker 7: there were things there, so the clothes weren't obviously probably
Speaker 7: back in the cupboards and things like that. I can
Speaker 7: remember him saying that he'd gone to his ex wife
Speaker 7: to get clothes for Lauren, and I assume she must
Speaker 7: have had a child there that was about the same
Speaker 7: age as Lauren. I don't know John's ex wife, so
Speaker 7: I don't know, but he had said that.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, started with the Saturday night May fifteen,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, Bromwan had been to a work party
Speaker 1: with people from Eden's Takeaway.
Speaker 3: Missus reed if Bronwin had left the children alone on
Speaker 3: the night of Saturday, fifteen May nineteen ninety three, would
Speaker 3: that have been in or out of character?
Speaker 8: Out of character?
Speaker 3: I would think it would have been unusual behavior.
Speaker 8: I think it would be unusual behavior.
Speaker 1: In fact, Bromwin had arranged for the daughter of a
Speaker 1: neighbor to babysit the girls that night. Bromwn had made
Speaker 1: written notes about this, including the name and phone number
Speaker 1: of that neighbor, Virginia Bevers, but for some reason this
Speaker 1: was not followed up in Glenn Taylor's investigation in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety eight, and therefore it was not part of the
Speaker 1: police brief of evidence in two thousand and two. That
Speaker 1: meant that it was not known to John's lawyer when
Speaker 1: he put to Michelle the incorrect suggestion that Bromwin had
Speaker 1: left the girls alone to go to a party on
Speaker 1: the Saturday night. The babysitter's role came out during the
Speaker 1: reinvestigation by police in two thousand and nine, when Inspector
Speaker 1: George Radmore led a cold case review for the Unsolved
Speaker 1: homicide unit. In episode three, I spoke to Virginia Bebers
Speaker 1: and her husband Lee about Brommin and the babysitting by
Speaker 1: Virginia's daughter when the party was on.
Speaker 8: I saw her the night before she went missing.
Speaker 1: My phone numbers written there.
Speaker 6: It actually said Saturday night, Virginia phone number, et cetera.
Speaker 3: Our oldest daughter was a babysitter or her the night
Speaker 3: before she went Listen. He was a lovely lady.
Speaker 2: She'd loved the kids.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked about the chair dropping incident, the one
Speaker 1: that Jody had recounted to Michelle in March nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 8: No, she didn't put a date on it.
Speaker 2: Missus reed, don't jump the gun. Listen to the question.
Speaker 8: Please, Well, I know what he's asking me.
Speaker 6: Well I don't.
Speaker 3: You must be able to read a mind.
Speaker 8: He wants to know when it happened. I don't. Wasn't
Speaker 8: given a specific.
Speaker 6: Date, Missus reed.
Speaker 2: Missus reed.
Speaker 5: Please, I know that this is in amotive case and
Speaker 5: everybody wants to assist the court, but you're not assisting.
Speaker 2: Listen to me.
Speaker 5: You're not assisting yourself if you're going to jump in
Speaker 5: and start answering questions before you give mister legg at
Speaker 5: the courtesy of asking the question. Okay, this is not
Speaker 5: one hundred meters sprint. We've got all week, and for
Speaker 5: that matter, it's been nine years since Bronwin went missing.
Speaker 5: There's no need to rush your evidence. Now take your time,
Speaker 5: think about the questions you're being asked, and think and
Speaker 5: consider your answer.
Speaker 1: Thank you your worship and Michelle's recollection of Bromwin shortly
Speaker 1: before her disappearance, having said words to the effect, if
Speaker 1: anything happens to me, would you please look after Crystal
Speaker 1: was on John's lawyer's mind.
Speaker 3: Had that topic, that is, something potentially happening to Bronwin
Speaker 3: and Crystal being looked after by you? Had that ever
Speaker 3: been raised by Bronwin prior to that.
Speaker 8: In July of nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 7: So sometime just after that, we had a phone call
Speaker 7: to our house and Bromwin was upset and she was
Speaker 7: talking about wanting to leave, and the talk was her
Speaker 7: coming back to Sydney, and at that stage she was
Speaker 7: kind of hinting at staying with us, but we at
Speaker 7: that point lived in a small home and we really
Speaker 7: didn't have a lot of room. And I said to
Speaker 7: her that she was going to come back and live
Speaker 7: or wanted to move back, that I'd help her try
Speaker 7: and find somewhere to live in Cronulla. And at that
Speaker 7: point she was talking about if anything ever happened to her,
Speaker 7: would we look after Crystal.
Speaker 8: She'd said that on more than one occasion.
Speaker 3: Paragraph fourteen of your statement, it's the conversation with Bronwin
Speaker 3: where she says words to the effect everything will be okay.
Speaker 3: You'll understand in a few days. Yes, that statement occurred
Speaker 3: in the last conversation that you ever had with Bronwin.
Speaker 3: Is that right?
Speaker 7: That conversation happened just prior to her disappearing, like just
Speaker 7: in the day's prior.
Speaker 3: It struck you as an unusual thing to be said,
Speaker 3: did it at the time?
Speaker 8: It is just a comment. I couldn't put it into context, so.
Speaker 3: I understand now, Sergeant Detective Sergeant Discan makes this entry
Speaker 3: on three June ninety ninety three at two pm. On
Speaker 3: three June ninety ninety three, I had a long conversation
Speaker 3: with sister in law Bronwin, Michelle Reid zero two five
Speaker 3: four seven five eight zero. Now is that your phone number? Yes,
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three. Yes, she is very concerned about
Speaker 3: the missing person.
Speaker 8: Can you tell me that date again.
Speaker 3: Third of June nineteen ninety three. Okay, So, as at
Speaker 3: three June you would have been very concerned about Bronwin,
Speaker 3: would you.
Speaker 7: Well, she just spit on sixteenth and May and what
Speaker 7: day again, the third of June.
Speaker 3: The third of June, I think it was twenty seven
Speaker 3: may was it that the missing person's noticed when it
Speaker 3: was formally lodged?
Speaker 8: I don't know.
Speaker 3: And you would have said that to Detective Sergeant Discott, wouldn't.
Speaker 8: She we're concerned about her?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I would have said that more likely than not.
Speaker 8: What else did I say?
Speaker 3: He says? Stated, this is you? Yeah, stated that the
Speaker 3: actions of the missing person are identical of what her
Speaker 3: mother did. Now did you say that?
Speaker 8: Say that again?
Speaker 3: I read it to you.
Speaker 8: It's hard to I know what you mean, but no,
Speaker 8: just read it.
Speaker 3: And I'm reading it word for word. Yeah, the actions
Speaker 3: of the MP, Yeah, are identical of what her mother did. Then, now,
Speaker 3: just pausing there, if you could hold that in your mind.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It then goes on and says the MP and her
Speaker 3: sister and brother.
Speaker 8: The MP and her sister and brother.
Speaker 3: Person.
Speaker 8: I've got no recollection of that conversation.
Speaker 3: Let's just do it step by step.
Speaker 8: Yep.
Speaker 3: Can you recall at some stage talking to Detective Sergeant
Speaker 3: Discan about bron Wan's mother's disappearance? Just a yes or no.
Speaker 3: We'll get us there to start with.
Speaker 7: I honestly cannot recall talking to him about anything to
Speaker 7: do with Bromman's mother's disappearance.
Speaker 3: You can't recall one way or the other. No, So
Speaker 3: you may have said it, but you can't recall saying
Speaker 3: anything about it.
Speaker 8: I know that John was suggesting.
Speaker 3: It, ma'am. Just deal with my question, but I don't know.
Speaker 3: So what you seem to be saying is you may
Speaker 3: well have talked to Detective Sergeant Discan about Bromlin's mother,
Speaker 3: but you're just not sure one way or the other.
Speaker 7: I don't see what Bromlan's mother has anything to do
Speaker 7: with it.
Speaker 8: To be honest with.
Speaker 3: You, well you might not, but if you'd be kind
Speaker 3: enough just to answer the question.
Speaker 7: Well, I'm trying to, but I can't understand why I
Speaker 7: would say it when I don't.
Speaker 8: Know, missus reed, I don't remember saying it.
Speaker 1: The deputy State Coroner spoke up to try to explain
Speaker 1: to Michelle why she would be better off answering the
Speaker 1: questions rather than analyzing the relevance of the questions.
Speaker 5: You may not understand the nature of the questioning. Mister
Speaker 5: Leggatt has got reports in front of him, prepared by
Speaker 5: Detective Sergeant Discan, and obviously in this investigation, we've got
Speaker 5: to look at everything, including what Detective sergeant Discan wrote
Speaker 5: down in June, which was very close to the date
Speaker 5: when Bronwin disappeared.
Speaker 8: I don't remember the conversation now.
Speaker 5: The notes that Detective Sergeant discin are purported to be
Speaker 5: notes of a summary of a conversation he had with you.
Speaker 5: All mister Leggot is asking you now is do you
Speaker 5: recall that conversation and do you recall saying things? The
Speaker 5: detective Sergeant Discan has made a note of no. A
Speaker 5: lot of the questions you can answer with a yes
Speaker 5: or a no answer. You don't have to comment as
Speaker 5: to its relevance. That's for me to decide.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 3: The detective sergeant goes on doing conversation. The MP missing
Speaker 3: person informed her that she was involved in a relationship
Speaker 3: with a solicitor with a name similar to Copenhagen. Can
Speaker 3: you remember something like that being the topic of a
Speaker 3: discussion We.
Speaker 8: Talked about Broman going to a solicitor.
Speaker 3: Does that name ring any bells?
Speaker 8: No, not a.
Speaker 7: I don't remember the part about the relationship, but the
Speaker 7: talking about Bromwin seeing a solicitor.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that may have been talked about. I do remember that.
Speaker 3: Does the name Copenhagen ring a Bell.
Speaker 8: The name Copenhagen.
Speaker 7: I remember somebody, and it may have been Kim talking
Speaker 7: to us, and Kim is Andrew's house sister, and she
Speaker 7: had talked about, well, talk to Bromwin, and she had
Speaker 7: seen and spoken about going to see a solicitor. And
Speaker 7: I couldn't remember the name. And that name just just
Speaker 7: a funny sounding name. I remember that because it was unusual.
Speaker 1: So who was the solicitor with a name like Copenhagen.
Speaker 1: I believe that the man was, in fact Graham Holland,
Speaker 1: and that somehow, in the way that it's been related
Speaker 1: to Detective Discan, Copenhagen, which is the capital city of Denmark,
Speaker 1: has been conflated with nearby Holland, more commonly known as
Speaker 1: the Netherlands. In episode five, you heard this excerpt from
Speaker 1: one of Detective Discin's running sheets.
Speaker 9: On June tenth, interviewed solicitor Graham Holland of Byron Bay
Speaker 9: states that he had been consulted by the missing person
Speaker 9: on May four regarding dissolution of marriage, property settlement, and
Speaker 9: custody of the two girls, which was to take priority.
Speaker 9: The missing person was in fear of returning to the
Speaker 9: family home if the husband should return from Sydney whilst
Speaker 9: she was residing there. Solicitor Holland stated that she had
Speaker 9: very little money and was only concerned about the welfare
Speaker 9: of her two little girls.
Speaker 1: Nobody, however, has suggested to me that Graham Holland was
Speaker 1: in any personal relationship with Bromwin.
Speaker 3: Had you heard the name Pendragon mentioned by Bronwann or
Speaker 3: anyone in the course of this.
Speaker 8: No, that doesn't really mean anything.
Speaker 3: The name of a clairvoyant Pendragon, not Pendragon. I've got
Speaker 3: another topic. When he looked inside the boot of the car,
Speaker 3: there could well have been an LPG cylinder in the back.
Speaker 3: You just don't remember one way or the other. Is
Speaker 3: that fair comment?
Speaker 2: Yep, your worship.
Speaker 3: I'm instructed to state for the record that the vehicles
Speaker 3: purchased from Byron Bay Taxis and on my instructions there
Speaker 3: was a seventy liter LPG cylinder in the rear of
Speaker 3: the car when he purchased it. Subsequently, Thank you, your worship,
Speaker 3: Thank you, missus reed.
Speaker 1: The evidence of Gary Jackson, otherwise known as Jacko, was
Speaker 1: relatively short. Jacko and Bromwin were clearly very fond of
Speaker 1: each other. They might i have ended up in a
Speaker 1: relationship if Bromwin had not disappeared. Matt Fordham asked Jacko
Speaker 1: about that relationship.
Speaker 6: And Sir, just a couple of matters. In your statement,
Speaker 6: you described that you befriended Bronwin in the weeks before
Speaker 6: she disappeared in nineteen ninety three. Is that correct?
Speaker 3: That's true?
Speaker 6: And then she gave you the impression that she was
Speaker 6: keen on a relationship with you. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: That's true?
Speaker 6: And sir, you say in your statement that Bromwin disclosed
Speaker 6: to you that mister Winfield used to sit in a
Speaker 6: car outside her flat watching her flat. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: That's true?
Speaker 6: Yeah, sir, do you remember how long before she went
Speaker 6: missing she told you this?
Speaker 1: Jacko responded that it would have been about four to
Speaker 1: eight weeks before she went missing, and he mentioned that
Speaker 1: he had left Lennox Head three to four weeks before
Speaker 1: Bromwin disappeared. Matt Fordham produced a letter that Gary Jackson
Speaker 1: had written to Bromwin. It had a date stamp of
Speaker 1: April twenty nine, nineteen ninety three, and the location was
Speaker 1: listed as well christ Church, New Zealand.
Speaker 6: So it's clear, sir, that you've arrived in christ Church
Speaker 6: in late April nineteen ninety three. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Jacko had told Glen Taylor in nineteen ninety eight that
Speaker 1: Broman was concerned about John having been harassing her on
Speaker 1: the phone. Jacko had said that he had only visited
Speaker 1: Bromwin at her Byron Street flat during daylight hours, perhaps
Speaker 1: three or four times. Jacko was alive to the possibility
Speaker 1: that he could become embroiled in their divorce proceedings. That's
Speaker 1: what he had told Glen Taylor.
Speaker 6: Did you ever see mister Winfield sitting outside her flat
Speaker 6: or were you ever present when any of those phone
Speaker 6: calls were received by Bromwin.
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: I was never there when a phone call was received.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 3: Broman did point to me one day that John was
Speaker 3: parked out there.
Speaker 2: The car was there.
Speaker 3: You could see the car. It was a white Falcon
Speaker 3: with a taxi ariel in the center of the roof.
Speaker 3: It was pretty obvious. I knew the car from around town.
Speaker 3: The phone was disconnected from the wall on several occasions,
Speaker 3: so as the phone calls couldn't be made in.
Speaker 6: When you say the phone was disconnected from the wall,
Speaker 6: that is at the flat and Byron Street. Is that correct?
Speaker 3: The flat and Byron Street.
Speaker 6: And did it appear to you as though the phone
Speaker 6: had simply been moved out of the socket and taken
Speaker 6: off the wall, or had it been ripped out? Or
Speaker 6: how did it appear to you?
Speaker 3: It seemed to me like it had been removed from
Speaker 3: the wall at the socket at the wall.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, got up.
Speaker 3: Now, is it the case that Bronlin, when you were
Speaker 3: in her company from time to time, pointed to a
Speaker 3: vehicle and said John is in that vehicle?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: Or did you were you actually able to see him inside?
Speaker 3: There was only one incident, only one. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 3: know if you know the residence that Brown was in.
Speaker 3: It's alongside the Ampholse service station. There's a fence there
Speaker 3: and it's pretty well surrounded. You used to come through
Speaker 3: the back entrance and if you look down the driveway
Speaker 3: you could see the car park across the street. There
Speaker 3: was only the one time, but it was pointed out
Speaker 3: to me on the one time that I remember what
Speaker 3: time of day was that approximately? Can you remember? It
Speaker 3: could have been mid to late afternoon, from three o'clock
Speaker 3: to four point thirty. And did you see John in
Speaker 3: the car or was it empty? No, I couldn't say
Speaker 3: that I could see John in the car.
Speaker 1: The inquest heard next from Donald Apps.
Speaker 6: And so is it the case that you live in
Speaker 6: Lennox Head and have done so for more than twenty years?
Speaker 6: Is that correct?
Speaker 2: That's correct?
Speaker 6: And is it the case that around nineteen eighty nine
Speaker 6: or nineteen ninety you met John Winfield?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 6: Is it the case that you were assisting him when
Speaker 6: he was building his house at Sandstone Crescent, Atlantics Head.
Speaker 10: I give him a hand for a small while that
Speaker 10: me back wouldn't put up with it. I was very
Speaker 10: disappointed that I wasn't able to help him with it more.
Speaker 6: And so this address in Sandstone Crescent, it's a different block,
Speaker 6: is that right.
Speaker 2: That's where I first met John. Yeah, at the other.
Speaker 10: Place, because his particular work was very neat, as one
Speaker 10: bricklayer to another.
Speaker 6: And is it the case that you're aware that mister
Speaker 6: Winfield's marriage unfortunately failed and the house which had been
Speaker 6: begun in Sandstone Crescence, Yeah, was eventually sold in complete.
Speaker 6: Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 6: So in your statement you described that John Winfield has
Speaker 6: quite a possessive nature towards Bronwin, and that he was
Speaker 6: fairly dominant and liked to make the decisions. Were there
Speaker 6: any particular incidents that you can indicate to us led
Speaker 6: you to that conclusion.
Speaker 10: There's one. It's only really a one time. It was persistent,
Speaker 10: if you call it. That was they were having an
Speaker 10: argument out in front there about some matter, and it
Speaker 10: went on for about three hours. And I stayed in
Speaker 10: the room because well, I hope they get rid of
Speaker 10: their problems. It was Bronwan came back into the house
Speaker 10: and I was just making a cup of tea and
Speaker 10: she came down and said that she wanted some money
Speaker 10: to go on to a wedding.
Speaker 2: I think it might have been a brother's wedding.
Speaker 6: Is this a wedding in Lennox Head or down in Sydney?
Speaker 10: No, No, the one in Sydney. I think it was
Speaker 10: a wedding.
Speaker 2: And he didn't want to give her the money, like
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 10: Because obviously, after all his problems, I thought it he'd
Speaker 10: be very short of money actually, and I didn't know
Speaker 10: how he could manage the way he did.
Speaker 6: And did you see any violence between John and Bronwin?
Speaker 2: No violence between them. No.
Speaker 6: And you say that after the house was completed and
Speaker 6: that John and Bronwin moved into it. You went and
Speaker 6: visited them in that house a few times? Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 10: John maintained a very clean and clinical type house. I
Speaker 10: thought it was sort of congucive with his bricklaying work.
Speaker 10: He was always very neat and tidy.
Speaker 6: And was this a trait that was normally exercised by
Speaker 6: John or by Bronwin or by both of them equally?
Speaker 2: I'd say the neatness would be by John. Yeah.
Speaker 10: I think Bromlin's house where I don't think she'm be
Speaker 10: too fussy about work.
Speaker 6: Did you ever see mister Winfield get angry about the
Speaker 6: standard of the housework?
Speaker 2: Not really, nay.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Donald b Apps about a part of
Speaker 1: his nineteen ninety eight statement in which Donald had said
Speaker 1: he found it unbelievable that Bromwin would cease all contact
Speaker 1: with her two girls.
Speaker 6: Were there any particular incidents or events that you saw
Speaker 6: that would lead you to that conclusion.
Speaker 10: Well, Bromlin was always pretty meticulous about the way she
Speaker 10: is to dress them, and also you could tell by
Speaker 10: her in the bathroom, shampoo and things of that nature.
Speaker 10: They were very well looked after nice and clean and tidy, Sir.
Speaker 6: The last paragraph of your statement, you described, Sir, that
Speaker 6: you remember Bronwin telling you once that John could become violent,
Speaker 6: and that you say that Bronwin said to you that
Speaker 6: John had got very angry once with a young man
Speaker 6: who had apparently had a relationship with his eldest daughter,
Speaker 6: and that he pulled a paling off the fence and
Speaker 6: was going to hit the bloke with it. Do you
Speaker 6: recall that conversation with Bromwin, Yeah, he got angry.
Speaker 10: I don't know whether it was at himself or whether
Speaker 10: it was Bromwin, or whether it was the young man
Speaker 10: or not.
Speaker 6: And so you also recount in your statements that you
Speaker 6: had heard that on one occasion, John was supposed to
Speaker 6: have smashed a fellow's windscreen with a rock after he'd
Speaker 6: interfered with him while he was surfing at Lennox Head,
Speaker 6: and you say that you think that it may have
Speaker 6: been Wayne Lazarus that had told you that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: To these observations, do they surprise you about John or
Speaker 6: do they accord with your knowledge of John Winfield?
Speaker 10: Well, I think anybody smashing his windscreen would be a
Speaker 10: surprise to anybody there's a lot of things happen in
Speaker 10: the surf rage. There's some people with the laws of
Speaker 10: surfing fraternity that certain things are not allowed to be done.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked Donald Apps about a conversation that he
Speaker 1: had with another man, Wayne Lazarus, about John's purported surf rage.
Speaker 3: In the last few days, You've spoken to Wayne Lazarus,
Speaker 3: haven't you. Yeah, And you checked with him as to
Speaker 3: whether he told you the story about John and a
Speaker 3: rock and some surf rage. And Wayne told you he didn't.
Speaker 2: He can't remember, he.
Speaker 3: Said, he said it wasn't him who told you.
Speaker 2: He just said he just couldn't remember.
Speaker 1: One of Broman's good friends in Lennox Head, was the
Speaker 1: last witness on what had been an exhausting and long
Speaker 1: day of evidence. I'm not going to disclose her full
Speaker 1: name because she has asked for anonymity. We've called her
Speaker 1: Joan when I've interviewed her. In early episodes of the
Speaker 1: Bromwin podcast series, Joan was asked by Matt Forden about
Speaker 1: a conversation that Joan had with Bromwin about her marriage
Speaker 1: problems with John. She remembered Bromwin telling her about a
Speaker 1: conversation Bromwin had overheard between John and his father. John's
Speaker 1: father was visiting at Sandstone Crescent. Bromwin had told Joan
Speaker 1: that she'd heard John tell his dad that he would
Speaker 1: have a better chance of holding onto the house if
Speaker 1: the children were in John's care. Joan was one of
Speaker 1: the last people to see Bromwn alive. She spoke to
Speaker 1: Bromwin on the Sunday morning before her disappearance, and Bromwin
Speaker 1: did not disclose anything that suggests she was about to
Speaker 1: go away or that she wanted to go on any
Speaker 1: kind of break.
Speaker 6: And when Bronwin was telling you about this conversation that
Speaker 6: she'd overheard between John and his father, did she say
Speaker 6: whether she'd had any plans for the future or anything
Speaker 6: that she was intending to do.
Speaker 8: Yeah, she was intending to move out.
Speaker 11: And at one stage she had told me that he
Speaker 11: had offered her and I don't remember the amount, it
Speaker 11: was either five thousand or ten thousand, and he offered
Speaker 11: her that much to call it quits. And I said,
Speaker 11: what you mean, that's it no more? And she said yes,
Speaker 11: And I said I wouldn't be accepting that, and she said, no,
Speaker 11: I don't intend to one day when he's out, I'll
Speaker 11: get the place valued because there was no mortgage on it.
Speaker 11: And she said she'd have to get one of the
Speaker 11: real estate agents. One she couldn't get because he was
Speaker 11: a friend of John's. She would get another one to
Speaker 11: value it. And she did so one time when he
Speaker 11: was away, and it was two hundred and sixty five
Speaker 11: or two hundred and forty five thousand dollars.
Speaker 6: And so Bromin's gone out and had the house at
Speaker 6: Sandstone Crescent failure. Is that correct?
Speaker 8: Yes?
Speaker 6: Did you know how long before Bromwin disappeared that that occurred.
Speaker 11: It was before she moved out. I think before she
Speaker 11: moved out of the house into the unit.
Speaker 1: Joan repeated that Bromwyn expressed concern about having custody of
Speaker 1: the children.
Speaker 6: Did you get the impression that Bromwin what was the
Speaker 6: order of priorities for Bronwin? Was it her children first
Speaker 6: and then the house second, and then the other things
Speaker 6: later on? Or was it different her children?
Speaker 11: Bronwin always loved children. When I had my youngest daughter,
Speaker 11: I had her on a Friday. Bromwin was my first
Speaker 11: visit to the hospital on Saturday morning. She didn't just
Speaker 11: bring me a present and the baby a present. She
Speaker 11: brought my other daughter a present, And I just don't
Speaker 11: believe that somebody who thinks about kids feelings like that,
Speaker 11: would walk out on her own.
Speaker 1: According to Joan, Bromwin had told her that John said
Speaker 1: he would kill her if she ever bad mouthed him
Speaker 1: around town. That was the allegation.
Speaker 6: Do you remember that conversation.
Speaker 11: Yes, it may have been the same day she was
Speaker 11: telling me about the abortion. I'm not sure what day
Speaker 11: it was, but it was at my home and she
Speaker 11: said that he had said to her, if you ever
Speaker 11: bad mailed me around town, I'll kill.
Speaker 6: You, ma'am. During your discussions with bron One in the
Speaker 6: days and weeks before she disappeared, was it ever suggested
Speaker 6: to you by her that she would leave and go away,
Speaker 6: or go and live with a commune, or leave her
Speaker 6: children in any way.
Speaker 11: No, I can't even imagine Bronwin walking down the street
Speaker 11: in the littlone living there. She never indicated going away.
Speaker 11: When I spoke to her that morning that Sunday morning,
Speaker 11: she said to me, like when she'd moved into the house,
Speaker 11: that she found out one of the doors was actually
Speaker 11: an interior door and not an exterior door, that she'd
Speaker 11: have to get it fixed, and she said to me,
Speaker 11: you'll have to show me how to mow the grass.
Speaker 11: So she obviously wasn't planning on going away. She never
Speaker 11: mentioned going.
Speaker 1: When John's lawyer stood up, he repeated his now well
Speaker 1: worn strategy of asking about Bromin's disclosures about her view
Speaker 1: to the tarot card reader and clairvoyant Pendragon in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three. Joan had attended one of those visits with Bromwin,
Speaker 1: but she could not recall much about it. Craig Leggert
Speaker 1: put a now familiar question to her.
Speaker 3: If Bromwin had left the children alone in nineteen ninety
Speaker 3: three in May of nineteen ninety three, without a babysitter
Speaker 3: at night, would you have considered that to be quite
Speaker 3: an unusual action for her?
Speaker 1: John's lawyer appeared to be developing an argument that Bromwin's
Speaker 1: behavior in the days leading up to her disappearance was
Speaker 1: strange or unusual. Joan agreed that she could not imagine
Speaker 1: Bromwin leaving the children alone unsupervised. Craig Legat tried to
Speaker 1: press the point further, so if.
Speaker 3: She had done that, it would be just incredibly unusual behavior.
Speaker 3: Bizarre behavior for her, you think.
Speaker 11: Joan responded, well, I don't know about bizarre, but it
Speaker 11: would definitely be out of character for her, because, like
Speaker 11: I said, she thought so much about kid's welfare. Like
Speaker 11: I said, mine she brought my three year old at
Speaker 11: present when I had my baby. You know, she thought
Speaker 11: of kid's feelings.
Speaker 1: Finally, Craig Legott asked Joan if she ever had a
Speaker 1: conversation with Bromwin about Broman's mother, but Joan couldn't recall
Speaker 1: any details. Day two was almost at an end.
Speaker 3: Your worship just before we rise. Would it assist you
Speaker 3: to hear from Detective Sergeant Discott. We've heard evidence that
Speaker 3: he's gone on a period of six months leave or so.
Speaker 3: We don't know when that started, whether it coincided with
Speaker 3: the start.
Speaker 2: Of this hearing.
Speaker 3: We don't know whether he's just not able to do
Speaker 3: police duties, or whether he can sit in the witness
Speaker 3: box and give evidence, or perhaps whether you would even
Speaker 3: go to him if he's otherwise incapacitated.
Speaker 5: I don't know. Perhaps Sergeant Taylor might need to look
Speaker 5: at that. Yes, I mean, ideally it would have been
Speaker 5: good to have Sergeant Discott. He was the first one
Speaker 5: involved in this matter.
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, yes, particularly given the conflict between some of
Speaker 3: the witnesses and what's recorded.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham shed some light on this. He had learned
Speaker 1: from Glenn Taylor that Sergeant Graham Diskin was off work
Speaker 1: and unable to attend court. Matt Fordham went on to
Speaker 1: say that he had asked Glenn Taylor to find Graham
Speaker 1: Discin's running sheets and documents, which he said should have
Speaker 1: already been made available at the start of the inquest.
Speaker 5: All right, but I think perhaps there should be something
Speaker 5: official put on the record. And Sergeant Diskin is a
Speaker 5: material witness, I mean he commenced the investigation. I think
Speaker 5: I need to see some certification that he's actively unable
Speaker 5: to attend court, the same as any civilian witness would
Speaker 5: have to satisfy me if they were appearing in coronial
Speaker 5: or criminal matters that they can't attend and give evidence
Speaker 5: because of sickness or some other reason.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer raised a fair point, and he had alleged
Speaker 1: earlier in the day that Graham Diskin's investigation was incompetent.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett pointed out that it was only fair for
Speaker 1: these comments to be put to Graham Diskin, and if
Speaker 1: he could not come to court, then it was appropriate
Speaker 1: for the coroner to be supplied with an independent statement
Speaker 1: of this. Karl Milavanovitch agreed. Before we conclude this episode,
Speaker 1: let's return to the question of Illawong. You heard the
Speaker 1: view of Dan Williams right at the start. I then
Speaker 1: spoke to Karina Berger, who has experienced in coronial investigations,
Speaker 1: and of course Bromwin's brother Andy as his wife Michelle
Speaker 1: sat with him at their home in the Shire, a
Speaker 1: short drive from Illawongkarina, what's your view?
Speaker 3: What do we do here?
Speaker 12: Well, for me, I think it's a no brainer that
Speaker 12: at this stage we should wait and leave things to
Speaker 12: the police and the coroner. First of all, we haven't
Speaker 12: received a refusal from the coroner to Andy's request. What
Speaker 12: the coroner seems to have said is that you'll consider
Speaker 12: the application, but wants to make an informed decision and
Speaker 12: wants police to conclude their investigations. I think that's a
Speaker 12: reasonable position for the coroner to be taking, and we
Speaker 12: don't want to compromise anything that the police might be doing.
Speaker 12: We don't have great visibility of the police investigation, so
Speaker 12: we just need to be a little bit careful. But
Speaker 12: I think there's a major advantage of waiting, which is
Speaker 12: if the coroner and the police decide that a search
Speaker 12: a Villa Wong is appropriate, then they can use some
Speaker 12: mandatory powers to bring about that search, whereas we would
Speaker 12: be asking the owners of the property to cooperate voluntarily.
Speaker 12: The police would have expertise in these types of searches,
Speaker 12: and they'd be able to draw on those previous experiences
Speaker 12: and skills too. It's not a situation where the crucial
Speaker 12: evidence that Illowong is likely to be lost or damaged,
Speaker 12: so timing is not really critical in that regard. If
Speaker 12: the police were to conduct the search, then they would
Speaker 12: be hopefully in a good position to support both the
Speaker 12: ill Along homeowners and also Bronwin's family through that process,
Speaker 12: and they would have family liaison officers and people with
Speaker 12: specialist skills who could guide both of those families.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 12: I think where this all leaves us is that it
Speaker 12: doesn't preclude us from rethinking our position down the track.
Speaker 12: If there were really extensive delays and Andy wasn't given
Speaker 12: a reasonable explanation about the delays, or if the coroner
Speaker 12: ultimately refused Andy's application and refused to grant the order.
Speaker 12: Then we could rethink our position. What we ultimately want
Speaker 12: is answers for the family and justice for Bronwin. So
Speaker 12: leaving the investigations to law enforcement, the police and the
Speaker 12: coroner is undoubtedly the way to go at this point
Speaker 12: in time.
Speaker 1: The risk is that we would find Romin's remains and
Speaker 1: then we'd find ourselves in a really difficult situation because
Speaker 1: we would have this highly incriminating evidence but being potentially
Speaker 1: accused of disturbing a crime scene.
Speaker 12: I think we need to give the police a good
Speaker 12: chance to undertake these searches as thoroughly and comprehensively as
Speaker 12: they can. We should only get involved at this site
Speaker 12: if that's the last resort, because the police and the
Speaker 12: coroner won't act well.
Speaker 1: That all makes perfect sense. Okay, so mate, this now
Speaker 1: is being recorded.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: You've received a response which is basically saying there is
Speaker 1: an active police investigation and at the end of that.
Speaker 4: A decision will be made upon the completion of the
Speaker 4: current running investigation.
Speaker 1: This is an investigation that had been basically abandoned.
Speaker 4: It correct in May. They didn't form me and Michelle
Speaker 4: that they finished their review, they didn't find any extenuating
Speaker 4: circumstances that they presumed that they could conduct any further
Speaker 4: investigations upon, and basically left it at that and said
Speaker 4: that unless some new information came to light, they couldn't
Speaker 4: do anything for us at that stage.
Speaker 1: And then the brom Win podcast series started in May
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four soon after that, and new information started
Speaker 1: coming forward.
Speaker 2: And here we are.
Speaker 1: They've restarted their investigation behind the scenes. They don't talk
Speaker 1: directly to us about what they're doing, but we're aware
Speaker 1: that things are happening. It's just that we don't really
Speaker 1: have a bead on what it is and where it's going.
Speaker 4: They don't want to disclose anything.
Speaker 1: We could go up to the owners of that house
Speaker 1: in Illowong. We could tell them everything we presume and suspect.
Speaker 1: We could ask them for permission to use drills and
Speaker 1: other equipment to try to determine if anything suspicious is
Speaker 1: beneath the garage and patio slab.
Speaker 2: Where do you see it? On?
Speaker 1: Where we go from here?
Speaker 4: Admittedly I am frustrated at the slow pace. I would
Speaker 4: like to think that we're at least now heading in
Speaker 4: the right direction. With the new information that's come to light,
Speaker 4: it should only be a matter of a couple of
Speaker 4: months to complete the few things that they possibly think
Speaker 4: they need to do. We should know what their point
Speaker 4: of view is and where they're heading with a search of.
Speaker 1: Dan Williams earlier, and he cautioned fairly persuasively against us
Speaker 1: going up to the site and proceeding with a dig
Speaker 1: and excavation. In his view, we really should leave that
Speaker 1: to the police and the coroner, even though it's a
Speaker 1: bit of a gamble as to whether they're going to
Speaker 1: even do that.
Speaker 4: Before we actually went there and found something, or skinned
Speaker 4: showed something, or a dog reacted, we'd obviously have to
Speaker 4: hand the sight over to them. Anyway, we will see
Speaker 4: how they progress over the next day, eight weeks or so,
Speaker 4: and maybe regroup then and see where we're at.
Speaker 1: It'll be thirty two years in May. You're taking a
Speaker 1: bit of a leap of faith in saying no, let's
Speaker 1: leave it to the same people who we've felt let
Speaker 1: down by it for three decades.
Speaker 4: I don't think we have a choice they do it.
Speaker 4: You've got to push your faith in these organizations to
Speaker 4: do their due diligence. It's my numbing name mind Drew Headley.
Speaker 4: It's my numbing that they've got exactly the same documentation
Speaker 4: or more documentation than what we have. Their review was done.
Speaker 4: They spent several months doing it with several different people
Speaker 4: because people were coming and going and leaving and whatnot.
Speaker 4: Fifteenth of May four, Yeah, it was when meon Michelle
Speaker 4: went and sat down at paramatter.
Speaker 13: It was really close to the release of the first
Speaker 13: episode in the Bromlin series.
Speaker 1: The police were done, they were finished.
Speaker 4: They exhausted all angles on the information that they had.
Speaker 4: That's when we were told there was nothing that they
Speaker 4: could really do.
Speaker 1: You have to take some comfort from the fact that,
Speaker 1: notwithstanding what they told you in May twenty four, almost
Speaker 1: a year ago, here we are and they have a reactivated,
Speaker 1: ongoing live investigation that they have clearly restarted, having told
Speaker 1: you it was done, dusted over correct.
Speaker 4: We can only just keep hoping that if iinally doing
Speaker 4: some due diligence and we're going to get somewhere.
Speaker 13: What I'm hearing from you is you want us to
Speaker 13: basically leave it to the police and the state coroner
Speaker 13: in relation to any search subterranean search of that property
Speaker 13: in Illawan where John was working, which we suspect could
Speaker 13: possibly be holding Bromin's remains.
Speaker 4: Yeah, correct, correct, err on the side of caution and
Speaker 4: let it unfold how it runs.
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callenon, Matthew Condon and David Murray, with
Speaker 1: assistance from Isaac Irons. Audio production for this podcast series
Speaker 1: is by Wasabi Wodeo and original theme music by Slade Gibson.
Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of
Speaker 1: brom and Winfield, and a shout out for all of.
Speaker 2: Our voice actors.
Speaker 3: There are some big parts here.
Speaker 1: They're not easy to do. We are grateful to everyone
Speaker 1: who has lent their voice, and particularly for the time
Speaker 1: consuming reconstructions of the inquest evidence. Outside the Reed family,
Speaker 1: there's John ty Burton as the police officer, Matt Fordham,
Speaker 1: Dan Sanke as the coroner, Dan Williams as Craig Leggett,
Speaker 1: and Glenn Taylor as himself, the then detective sergeant in
Speaker 1: Ballina Police.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: We can only do this kind of journalism with the
Speaker 1: support of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.
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Speaker 1: documents about this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet,
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy,
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver.
Speaker 3: Go to the
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