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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Broman contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. In our

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Speaker 1: reconstructions of evidence and testimony from witnesses at the two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two in quest, you are hearing the actual

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Speaker 1: questions from John's sharpshooting lawyer, Craig Leggett, as well as

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Speaker 1: the police officer Matt Fordham, and of course the response

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Speaker 1: from the witnesses. We do not have the audio of

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Speaker 1: the original proceedings, so what you are hearing is coming

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Speaker 1: from the official transcripts of the five days of public hearings.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The voice actor for Craig Leggett in this podcast series

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Speaker 1: is a senior lawyer in Brisbane and a friend, Dan Williams.

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Speaker 1: Subscribers who watched one of the three lengthy videos that

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Speaker 1: we released in early twenty twenty five would have seen

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Speaker 1: Dan Williams and Karina Berger talking about the recently renewed

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Speaker 1: police investigation. Dan expressed his view that the Unsolved Homicide

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Speaker 1: Unit was acting appropriately and almost certainly on solid police

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Speaker 1: legal advice by staying at arm's length from this podcast

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Speaker 1: investigation Dan explained that in the event of someone being

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Speaker 1: charged over Bromman's alleged murder, it would be crucially important

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Speaker 1: for police to demonstrate their independence and to show that

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Speaker 1: they had not been colluding with the podcast. Dan has

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Speaker 1: carefully considered the evidence in Broman's case. He and Maddie Walsh,

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Speaker 1: Karina Berger and many other volunteers and committed listeners are

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Speaker 1: a huge help behind the scenes in the Bromin series.

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Speaker 1: We are all very keen and determined to see that

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Speaker 1: the evidence back theory about Illiwong is tested. Only a

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Speaker 1: professional and intrusive search of the ground beneath the garage

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Speaker 1: and patio concrete at the existing and well established house

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Speaker 1: in Illawong can properly answer this theory. But should we

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Speaker 1: now try to undertake such a search ourselves, separately from

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Speaker 1: the State Coroner and the unsolved Homicide Unit. I went

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Speaker 1: to Dan's home shortly before this episode was finalized and

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Speaker 1: we talked about next steps. It's about four months we

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Speaker 1: wrote to the State Coroner of New South Wales, Teresa O. Sullivan,

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Speaker 1: proposing that she used her powers to order a search,

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Speaker 1: particularly beneath the concrete patio slab and Garrard slab at

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Speaker 1: that house Inilla One where John was working in ninety

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Speaker 1: ninety three when Bromwin disappeared. We don't have a definitive

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Speaker 1: response yet in terms of what will happen there. What

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Speaker 1: are the risks of us doing what many listeners would

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Speaker 1: probably like us to do, which is go and knock

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Speaker 1: on the door and seek and receive the permission of

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Speaker 1: the owners to do our own excavation work there.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: I think the first risk is that the police may

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Speaker 3: quite reasonably regard that as preempting or interfering with their investigation,

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Speaker 3: and that would be significant concern, But perhaps a little

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Speaker 3: bit more than that. I think if you did that,

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Speaker 3: then you've gotten yourself squarely involved in the process of

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Speaker 3: investigating the crime scene. You're a participant. Subsequently, it might

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Speaker 3: be suggested, perhaps wrongly and perhaps strategically, but it might

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Speaker 3: be suggested that there is a possibility that you have

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Speaker 3: changed the evidence, or even planted evidence on that site.

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Speaker 1: And you're referring to it as a crime scene. But

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Speaker 1: of course we don't know that's the case. We're only

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Speaker 1: suggesting that it looks possible.

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Speaker 3: So when I say crime scene, I just mean a

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Speaker 3: place where there is a reasonable speculation that there might

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Speaker 3: be evidence there which is relevant to the prosecution of

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Speaker 3: a crime.

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Speaker 1: We're in a bit of a quandary as to what

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Speaker 1: we should do. What is your view?

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Speaker 3: Heavily the owners of the Yellar Wung property could authorize

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Speaker 3: you to do a search. They're in control of their

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Speaker 3: own property. But given that the reply from the coroner

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Speaker 3: does indicate that there is a current investigation by the police,

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Speaker 3: presumably assisting the coroner to make a decision about what

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Speaker 3: powers the coroner should exercise, I would be inclined not

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Speaker 3: to proach the owners for that purpose. The police could

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Speaker 3: establish it formally as a crime scene. They may have

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Speaker 3: even done that. Even if they don't formally establish it

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Speaker 3: as a crime scene. There are some other obligations and

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Speaker 3: restrictions which you need to be conscious of, and so

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Speaker 3: with the owners, and they are that it would be

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Speaker 3: unlawful for you to do anything which might hinder a

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Speaker 3: police investigation, and the police would be concerned about the

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Speaker 3: possibility that somebody else might interfere with the site, might

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Speaker 3: allow the suggestion that it's been changed in some way,

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Speaker 3: or in some way evidence which the police wanted to

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Speaker 3: recover had been contaminated. And so that would be a

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Speaker 3: very significant concern to the police, and I would be

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Speaker 3: confident that they would prefer you don't do that.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: There may come a time when it becomes clear that

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Speaker 3: neither the coroner nor the police are going to take

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Speaker 3: the matter further, and at that point, I guess you

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Speaker 3: could revisit your options. Right at the moment, there's a

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Speaker 3: live investigation going on, there's a genuine possibility that the

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Speaker 3: police may have their own intentions in relation to the

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Speaker 3: Illawong site, and in those circumstances, I think it would

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Speaker 3: be prudent for you to take no steps.

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Speaker 1: What's the difference between this and using side scan sona

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Speaker 1: with Chris Darcy and his team at Lake Ainsworth, that

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Speaker 1: publicly accessible lake in Lenox when we were concerned about

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Speaker 1: the possibility of Bromin's body having been dumped there.

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Speaker 3: Very clearly Lake Ainsworth had not been designated as a

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Speaker 3: crime scene by the police. There's no suggestion that they've

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Speaker 3: ever shown any interest in that site. You must certainly

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Speaker 3: have not interfered with a crime scene or in any

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Speaker 3: way with the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And the pointers to Illewong are stronger than the pointers

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Speaker 1: to Lake Ainsworth.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I would say so the hypothesis that Lake Ainsworth

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Speaker 3: might be relevant was a reasonable one. It was certainly

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Speaker 3: worth having a look. The Illowong property might be a

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Speaker 3: crime scene. Clearly from the material that's come to light

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Speaker 3: so far, including through your podcast, there must be a prospect.

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Speaker 3: But that's where Bromin is. There is an unexplained period

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Speaker 3: of time when John first traveled to Sydney clearly had

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Speaker 3: access to the site. Some of his behavior on that

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Speaker 3: day as it emerged later is really a little bit

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Speaker 3: hard to explain. Speaking for me, I think there must

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Speaker 3: be a genuine possibility that Bromin's there. I would be

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Speaker 3: confident that the police reviewing the same data would be

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Speaker 3: likely to come to the same conclusion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: For me, it's significantly about those factors you mentioned, as

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Speaker 1: well as the timing of the concrete pause there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly nothing that you've uncovered so far would rule

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Speaker 3: out the possibility or even put it seriously in doubt. Personally,

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Speaker 3: I would think that it's a much more likely spot.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to Andy and Karina Berger and

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Speaker 1: Michelle about this and we'll reach a final decision. Craig

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Speaker 1: Leggett started with an attack on Andy's theory that John

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Speaker 1: might have disposed of Bromwin in the septic tank near

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Speaker 1: the Sandstone Crescent House.

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Speaker 3: You're aware of the seriousness of the allegation that you've

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Speaker 3: just stated under oath that it's your view that mister

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Speaker 3: Winfield put your sister in the septic tank and put

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Speaker 3: in acid and hydrate line. Are you aware of the

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Speaker 3: seriousness of what you're alleging.

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Speaker 4: I didn't allege. I said it was just a thought

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Speaker 4: that was discussed or that was thought of because I

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Speaker 4: was being constantly asked questions by Graham Diskin or by

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Speaker 4: all sorts of people and officers. Did I know of

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Speaker 4: what could have possibly happened to Bromwin?

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Speaker 1: When a loved one has been missing for years, speculation

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Speaker 1: and sometimes unlikely theories about a final resting place are inevitable.

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Speaker 1: As you heard in the previous episode and again just now,

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Speaker 1: Andy Reid was suspicious during the inquest in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and two that his sister had been dumped in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three in a concrete container used for the treatment

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Speaker 1: of raw sewage. It's a horrible thought to even contemplate privately,

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Speaker 1: let alone articulate in a hushed courtroom in front of

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Speaker 1: Bromwin's other family members and friends. John's lawyer was there

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Speaker 1: to hose down Andy's theory about the septic tank. Craig

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Speaker 1: Leggett would put it to Handy that septic tanks had

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Speaker 1: ceased to exist in Sandstone Crescent before nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 1: As we now weigh the relatively new theory about Illawong,

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Speaker 1: the septic tank angle raised during the inquest in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two is another timely reminder of the crucial

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Speaker 1: importance of evidence. When it comes to considering the possible

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Speaker 1: whereabouts of a final resting place for a missing person.

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Speaker 1: There will always be ideas, because there are potentially hundreds

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Speaker 1: of possibilities. We are limited only by our imagination in

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Speaker 1: this regard, but evidence of the direct and the circumstantial

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Speaker 1: kind pointing to a place should be taken more seriously.

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Speaker 3: Did you think that it would have been the proper

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Speaker 3: thing to do, before making a public allegation like that,

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Speaker 3: to inquire as to whether or not the sewerage in

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Speaker 3: fact is in Sandstone Crescent or whether there were septic

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Speaker 3: tanks in Sandstone Cresent.

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Speaker 4: Well, there is septic tanks at Sandstone Crescent. Was when

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Speaker 4: Bromwin lived there. I do also now know that the

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Speaker 4: septic tanks are no longer used. You probably might be

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Speaker 4: able to hit me with the right date, but I

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Speaker 4: reckon that might have happened around ninety six or something

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 3: Well, my instructions are that in nine to eighty three

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Speaker 3: eighty three, eighty three.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer brought Andy to the verbal dispute Jody had

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Speaker 1: with Bromman on the Friday night.

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Speaker 3: And you're aware, aren't you? That Jody's recollection is that

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Speaker 3: the disagreement arose because Bronwin was going to leave the

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Speaker 3: children alone. That's right, isn't it?

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Speaker 4: Sorry, No, my recollection isn't that.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leger took Andy to a topic that he had

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Speaker 1: already suggested to several witnesses. It was a clear strategy

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Speaker 1: by John's lawyer to suggest broman was acting strangely just

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Speaker 1: prior to her disappearance.

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Speaker 3: He put to Andy, if that, in fact was the

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Speaker 3: topic of the discussion, and if it was in fact

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Speaker 3: true that Bronwin was going out leaving the children at home,

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Speaker 3: would that have been in or out of.

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Speaker 4: Character for Bromwin to leave the children on their own? Yes,

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Speaker 4: Bromwin wouldn't have left the children on their own without

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Speaker 4: prior arrangements for someone to be looking after them.

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Speaker 3: Putting that another way, it would have been quite out

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Speaker 3: of character for the Bronwin that you know to have

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Speaker 3: left the children alone on the night of Friday, fourteen

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Speaker 3: May nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 4: I don't see the relevance of whether the children were

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Speaker 4: here or there, or what they were doing on Friday night.

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Speaker 3: No, whether you see the relevance or not with respect

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter. You're here to answer the questions.

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Speaker 5: Mister reed. Mister legis right. I'll decide the relevance. You

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Speaker 5: just answer questions.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I would say it's out of character.

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Speaker 3: Yes, out of character. Bronwin would have been behaving unusually

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Speaker 3: in your view, if that had in fact happened. Just

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Speaker 3: yes or no, we'll yes.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer had another strategy to pursue under instructions, no

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Speaker 1: doubt from John.

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Speaker 3: And you now know, don't you that about five months

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Speaker 3: after you were born, your mother disappeared. You know that

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Speaker 3: for a fact, now, don't you? Yes? Your mother subsequently

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Speaker 3: reappeared in nineteen seventy five, didn't she.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 3: At no time in that ten year period did you

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Speaker 3: hear from your mother. That's so, isn't it?

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Speaker 4: I personally here?

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Speaker 3: No, Now, let me ask you this Bronwin's work history.

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Speaker 3: Can you remember a conversation with mister Winfield when you

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Speaker 3: told mister Winfield what happened with Bronlin at the Commonwealth Bank?

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Speaker 4: Bromwin never worked at the Commonwealth Bank.

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Speaker 3: Are you aware of a period of time when Bronwin

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Speaker 3: worked for a bank.

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Speaker 4: I'm quite sure she worked for Westpac on the corner

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Speaker 4: of Bathist Street and George Street in town.

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Speaker 3: And you know the circumstances in which she left the bank,

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Speaker 3: don't you tell his worship? I remind you that you're

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Speaker 3: on oath.

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Speaker 1: The deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was paying close attention.

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Speaker 6: When is this what year?

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Speaker 3: This is when Bronwin is on my instructions? Around the

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Speaker 3: twenty years of age?

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Speaker 6: What before she met mister Winfield.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, just sit back and relax, mister reed, I'm writing

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Speaker 5: the show here.

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Speaker 6: You just answer the questions.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was prior to meeting mister Winfield.

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Speaker 1: Karl had a question for John's lawyer.

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Speaker 6: Is there I relevance to this?

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Speaker 7: There?

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Speaker 3: Maybe you say you do not have any understanding of

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Speaker 3: why Bronwin left a job at the bank.

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Speaker 4: To the best of my knowledge, No, I don't know

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Speaker 4: the exact reason of.

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Speaker 3: Why she I'm asking for exact reasons.

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Speaker 4: I don't know the reason she seized her employment with

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Speaker 4: the bank. No, I don't. Sorry, I can't remember any

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Speaker 4: exact reason of why she ceased that form of employed.

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Speaker 3: I'm not asking for exact reasons. Can you remember unusual circumstances?

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Speaker 4: No, I don't. No, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Let me move onto something different. Can you remember when

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Speaker 3: she worked from Mansours?

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Speaker 1: Andy replied, No, he didn't recall Bromwin working at Mansur's.

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Speaker 3: Or a Manchester shop. Can you remember her working at

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Speaker 3: a Manchester shop?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 4: Sorry, I don't.

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Speaker 3: Can you remember any unusual circumstances in Bronwin's working life

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Speaker 3: relating to her leaving the employee of organizations?

256
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,520
Speaker 4: Can I remember any unusual circumstances? No, I can't.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer moved on from the matter of Bromwin having

258
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,040
Speaker 1: left jobs in her early twenties.

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Speaker 3: Now the phone call of eight in May nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 5: Just before we go any further, mister Leggett, are you

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Speaker 5: going to take this matter any further or just leave it.

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Speaker 3: No, in light of the witnesses answers, No, I'm not well.

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Speaker 5: You realize that I placed absolutely no way to any

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Speaker 5: inference that might be raised from that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, no, quite so, and I certainly wouldn't even think

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Speaker 3: to make submissions based on the current state of the evidence.

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00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 2: Thank you.

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00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,200
Speaker 1: The mystery phone call at the hair salon into Cuts

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Speaker 1: where Jody worked, was the next subject for questioning by

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer. You'll recall that Andy went to the salon

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Speaker 1: after he'd heard about the phone call purportedly from Bronwyn

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Speaker 1: saying she was never coming back, and he questioned someone there.

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00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett wanted Andy to talk about his visit and

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Speaker 1: what he discovered that day.

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Speaker 3: The owner of the salon, according to my instructions, is

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Speaker 3: one Michelle Flanagan. Does that ring a bell with you?

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Speaker 3: Is that the person with whom you spoke or you

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Speaker 3: just can't remember.

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Speaker 4: I went down to the salon. I sat outside the

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Speaker 4: salon and waited for all the clientele to leave. Once

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00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,160
Speaker 4: the last client had left, when over and knocked on

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Speaker 4: the door, introduced myself, told the lady who I was,

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Speaker 4: and said that I have reason to believe that there

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Speaker 4: was a phone call here today.

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Speaker 3: It was clear from speaking to that person that that

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Speaker 3: person thought genuinely that a telephone call had been received

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Speaker 3: from someone with a female voice.

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00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:21,080
Speaker 2: Yes.

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00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 3: What was unclear to that person after you discussed it

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Speaker 3: with her was whether the female voice actually belonged to

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Speaker 3: Bronwin or not. Is that a fair summary?

292
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:30,920
Speaker 4: Fair summary?

293
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: She couldn't say to me that it was one hundred

295
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,360
Speaker 4: percent Bromwin. She just said a voice said to her

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Speaker 4: on the phone, this is Bromwin.

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Speaker 3: But what was not in doubt was the fact that

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Speaker 3: a telephone call had been received. That's so, isn't it.

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00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:54,080
Speaker 4: Yes, claiming that the person was Bromwin. I'm in Queensland.

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Speaker 4: I'm not coming back.

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00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,199
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett sat down matt fordham Rose again. He wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask some follow up questions.

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Speaker 6: So, from your knowledge of Bronwin and her contact with Jody,

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Speaker 6: would Bronwin have known what days Jody worked at the salon?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,119
Speaker 6: And are you certain of that or is this something

307
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 6: you're not quite sure about?

308
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:21,119
Speaker 4: No, I'm positive I know that because I've had conversations

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Speaker 4: with Bromwin, and Bromwin knew what day Jody's rostered day.

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Speaker 4: Off was with the salon and all those sorts of things.

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Speaker 6: Can you think of any reason why Bronwyn would have

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00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,400
Speaker 6: wrung the salon knowing that Jody wasn't working that day.

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Speaker 1: No reason at all. And his wife Michelle walked up next.

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Speaker 1: Matt Fordham raised again the topic of Bromwin having become

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00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,360
Speaker 1: pregnant and her distress over having had an abortion at

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Speaker 1: the insistence of her husband John.

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Speaker 7: Well. Actually, I remember her saying to me that it

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Speaker 7: was very stressful because John's really upset about his mum,

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00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 7: and that she'd felt he was a lot of time

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Speaker 7: obviously with her and at the hospital.

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Speaker 8: And she said to me, then if anything happened.

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00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 7: She was always really worried about Crystal, particularly not so

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00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,880
Speaker 7: much Lauren, that would we look after her if anything

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Speaker 7: happened to her.

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00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:22,200
Speaker 1: It is important to clarify something here. Michelle has told

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Speaker 1: me that Bromwin loved her daughters equally. Michelle explained that

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Speaker 1: Bromwin was more worried about Crystal because John was not

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Speaker 1: Crystal's biological father, and Bromwin suspected that Cristel would not

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Speaker 1: get the same opportunities from John as her little sister

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Speaker 1: Lauren would receive. Bromwin wanted to ensure that the Reed

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Speaker 1: family would step in to look after Crystal in the

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00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 1: event of Bromwin not being there for her daughters. Matt

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00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 1: asked Michelle about another phone call she had with Bromwin

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Speaker 1: on March thirty one, nineteen ninety three, that's about a

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00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,639
Speaker 1: week after Bromman had left the Sandstone Crescent House. Michelle

336
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,640
Speaker 1: said that Bromin sounded very distressed. All she could talk

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00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: about on the phone was moving out and separating from John,

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00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,919
Speaker 1: but Bromen sounded a lot happier. The next time they spoke,

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Speaker 1: Roman was settled with Crystal and Lauren in the new accommodation.

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Speaker 6: Did she indicate to you any sort of plans for

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00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 6: the future for her and the children?

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00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 7: As far as I knew they were out, they were

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00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 7: staying out. I said, like, you know, are you sure

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00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 7: you want to do this? Is this what you want?

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00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 7: It's going to be a huge thing. And I actually

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00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,160
Speaker 7: asked her if there was any chance her and John

347
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 7: could go to a marriage counselor, and she just went

348
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Speaker 7: off a brain no way, I'm not there, no way, no,

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Speaker 7: flatly no, Like I was just kind of okay, I

350
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 7: won't suggest that again.

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Speaker 6: So from that, did it appear to you as though

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00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 6: she'd made up her mind or that she was still

353
00:20:59,320 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 6: making up.

354
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,919
Speaker 7: Her Oh no, no way, she was going back, No

355
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 7: way in the world.

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00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,399
Speaker 6: You also say that you also remember Bronwin saying a

357
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 6: comment something like everything will be okay, you'll understand in

358
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 6: a few days.

359
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 8: Yeah.

360
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 6: Did you take those comments to mean anything?

361
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 8: That sort of took me aback.

362
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 7: I kind of didn't really know what she was getting

363
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 7: at at all, And in hindsight, I suppose, knowing that

364
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 7: she was going to a solicitor and that she was

365
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 7: trying to get property settlement and custody of the children,

366
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 7: that may have been what she meant that things would

367
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 7: work out her way.

368
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 6: Did you ever discuss any other options available to Bronwin,

369
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 6: such as her leaving the family completely, or going to

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00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 6: stay with a male friend, or going to live in

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00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 6: a commune somewhere, Any of those things ever come up

372
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 6: in your discussions with Bromwin.

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Speaker 8: That Bromwin herself was going to do that?

374
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 2: Yes?

375
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 6: No, do you believe that it would have been an

376
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 6: option that she would have entertained leaving the child?

377
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 8: Never? Never? Ever?

378
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: The police officer then took Michelle to her surprise meeting

379
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 1: with John when he showed up on her front doorstep

380
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 1: about four pm the day after Bromin's disappearance.

381
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 6: Do you remember what John's demeanor was at the time.

382
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 3: Yes.

383
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,479
Speaker 7: John was shaky, and I'm sure of what he was saying.

384
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 7: The first words that he said was Broman's left, and

385
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 7: I kind of thought, oh, well, he's here with the

386
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 7: two kids.

387
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 8: I got the shock of my life.

388
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 7: And the next thing, I sort of stepped outside and

389
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 7: I said allo to the kids, and the kids were

390
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 7: sort of shoot away so they couldn't hear anything. And

391
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 7: then he kind of said, oh, Bromin's going on a break.

392
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 7: It was like, that's what happened. She was going on

393
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 7: a break. She needed a break.

394
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 6: Was there ever any discussion with John about the things

395
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 6: that Browan may have taken from the house, such as

396
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 6: a suitcase or a bag or both or anything.

397
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 8: I asked him what she took.

398
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,719
Speaker 7: I was pretty surprised that Roman would just get up

399
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 7: and go out the door. And then he said he

400
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 7: didn't look. And I said to him, you didn't look.

401
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 7: Your wife was walking out the front door, and you

402
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 7: didn't look to see who she was going with. Or

403
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 7: what she had, and he said no, Well I couldn't

404
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 7: believe that either.

405
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: Michelle recalled asking John why he had left in such

406
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: a hurry. That's when John produced the petrol receipt from Ballina.

407
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Michelle if they had discussed any further

408
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: John's sudden drive away from his home at Lennox Head.

409
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 7: Well, I'd said to him, because I ask a lot

410
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 7: of questions. So I said to him, what time did

411
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 7: Bromin leave? And he said, oh, I don't know about

412
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 7: quarter past I passed in. I think that was what

413
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 7: he told me originally, although that's not what keeps getting

414
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 7: said the rest of the time. And I said to him,

415
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 7: so you just packed up and left. And we were

416
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 7: at this point, I think, getting things out of the car,

417
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 7: like the boot of the car and trying to get

418
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 7: the clothing for the kids.

419
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 8: And we walked back in the house and into my kitchen.

420
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 7: He fished out of his wallet a receipt which he

421
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 7: showed me, and it had eleven o six was a

422
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 7: petrol receipt. And I said, why did you leave in

423
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 7: such a hurry?

424
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: You know?

425
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 8: It was like half an hour later he said.

426
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 7: He was getting petrol, and he said his reason was

427
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 7: the kids travel better at nighttime.

428
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,719
Speaker 1: The boot of the Ford Falcon car was clearly on

429
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham's mind. He must have been considering the possibility

430
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: of Bromwin's body having been there. Michelle replied that she

431
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: remembered seeing pillow cases stuffed with clothing and a small bag.

432
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: She did not remember seeing any suitcase or heavy objects

433
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: in the car or in the boot. When Michelle asked

434
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: John what he had been up to that day and said,

435
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 1: he mentioned that he needed to get the car registered

436
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: as soon as he arrived.

437
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 6: Did he say that he'd been anywhere else in Sydney,

438
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 6: Not that I remember. Did he indicate to you?

439
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 8: I know he had a job to go to.

440
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 7: There was some sort of job that he was working at,

441
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 7: but I don't know if he.

442
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 6: Went there, And did he indicate to you when he

443
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 6: arrived in Sydney.

444
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 8: He said he got there that morning, and.

445
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 6: Did he indicate whether it was early in the morning

446
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 6: or in the late morning or anything like that.

447
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 7: Actually he did say he had to wait for the

448
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 7: registration place to open, so I don't know what time,

449
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 7: probably nine o'clock.

450
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: The police officer asked Michelle to talk about phone calls

451
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: John Winfield made to her and the weeks after Browin

452
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: went missing, John was seeking advice about how to care

453
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: for the two girls.

454
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 7: Yes, I was at home with Mitchell. He was newborn,

455
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 7: and I was home most of the time. Well, I

456
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 7: was home all of the time, really, and John used

457
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 7: to ring up, and I'd ring up there too and

458
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 7: see how everyone was going. And yeah, he'd just asked

459
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 7: little questions about lunches and John never really in the

460
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 7: time that I've known Bromin and John, I've never known John.

461
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 8: To look after the kids.

462
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 7: When I first met him, he worked a gabo's run

463
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 7: in the morning and then went to do bricklaying. He

464
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 7: was never there, so he was asking me lots of

465
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 7: questions about the kids and things.

466
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 6: Over the years. Have you ever known Bronwin to leave

467
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 6: the children for a period of time, to go away somewhere,

468
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 6: or to leave him in someone else's care for a

469
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 6: period of time.

470
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 7: No, she was always with the kids always.

471
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 6: I don't know whether you know the answer to this

472
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 6: or not. But in nineteen ninety three, do you know

473
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 6: how much Bronwin would have weighed?

474
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 7: She was tall and thin, fifty kilos something like that.

475
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: Then there was the recounting of a conversation Michelle had

476
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: with Jody shortly after the birth of Michelle's son, Mitchell

477
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: in late March nineteen ninety three. Michelle wanted to know

478
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: about her sister in law Bromwin's relationship with John. She

479
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: asked Jody if Bromwin and John argued a lot. Michelle

480
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: recalled Jody telling her that Jody had witnessed John picked

481
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: Bromwin up while Bromwin was sitting in a chair. He

482
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: held the chair with her in it in the air,

483
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: and then he dropped her. Michelle also recalled the phone

484
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: conversation John had with her and Andy in July nineteen

485
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: ninety three, the one in which John said Bromwin must

486
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: have come back to the house because a Medicare check

487
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: with her signature had been left on the table, and

488
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: Michelle recalled John saying that Bromwin must have had a

489
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: man with her because a pair of his jeans and

490
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: a jumper were missing from the house. Matt Forden was

491
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: almost done. He took Michelle back to the boot of

492
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: the family's ford Falcon car on the Monday afternoon. When

493
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: John arrived at the Reed home in Sydney, and then.

494
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 6: There's the discussion about the clothes that have been arranged

495
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 6: for the children. Were you able to determine then what

496
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 6: the source of those clothes was.

497
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 7: He said that when he got home, or when he

498
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 7: got up there and packed because Rominham moved in, there

499
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 7: were I don't know, boxes or crates or something, but anyway,

500
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 7: there were things there, so the clothes weren't obviously probably

501
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 7: back in the cupboards and things like that. I can

502
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 7: remember him saying that he'd gone to his ex wife

503
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 7: to get clothes for Lauren, and I assume she must

504
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 7: have had a child there that was about the same

505
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 7: age as Lauren. I don't know John's ex wife, so

506
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 7: I don't know, but he had said that.

507
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, started with the Saturday night May fifteen,

508
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, Bromwan had been to a work party

509
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: with people from Eden's Takeaway.

510
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: Missus reed if Bronwin had left the children alone on

511
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 3: the night of Saturday, fifteen May nineteen ninety three, would

512
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: that have been in or out of character?

513
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 8: Out of character?

514
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: I would think it would have been unusual behavior.

515
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 8: I think it would be unusual behavior.

516
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: In fact, Bromwin had arranged for the daughter of a

517
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: neighbor to babysit the girls that night. Bromwn had made

518
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: written notes about this, including the name and phone number

519
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: of that neighbor, Virginia Bevers, but for some reason this

520
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: was not followed up in Glenn Taylor's investigation in nineteen

521
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: ninety eight, and therefore it was not part of the

522
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: police brief of evidence in two thousand and two. That

523
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: meant that it was not known to John's lawyer when

524
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: he put to Michelle the incorrect suggestion that Bromwin had

525
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: left the girls alone to go to a party on

526
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: the Saturday night. The babysitter's role came out during the

527
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: reinvestigation by police in two thousand and nine, when Inspector

528
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: George Radmore led a cold case review for the Unsolved

529
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: homicide unit. In episode three, I spoke to Virginia Bebers

530
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: and her husband Lee about Brommin and the babysitting by

531
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: Virginia's daughter when the party was on.

532
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 8: I saw her the night before she went missing.

533
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: My phone numbers written there.

534
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 6: It actually said Saturday night, Virginia phone number, et cetera.

535
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: Our oldest daughter was a babysitter or her the night

536
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 3: before she went Listen. He was a lovely lady.

537
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: She'd loved the kids.

538
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked about the chair dropping incident, the one

539
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: that Jody had recounted to Michelle in March nineteen ninety three.

540
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 8: No, she didn't put a date on it.

541
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: Missus reed, don't jump the gun. Listen to the question.

542
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 8: Please, Well, I know what he's asking me.

543
00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 6: Well I don't.

544
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 3: You must be able to read a mind.

545
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 8: He wants to know when it happened. I don't. Wasn't

546
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 8: given a specific.

547
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 6: Date, Missus reed.

548
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: Missus reed.

549
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 5: Please, I know that this is in amotive case and

550
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 5: everybody wants to assist the court, but you're not assisting.

551
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 2: Listen to me.

552
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 5: You're not assisting yourself if you're going to jump in

553
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 5: and start answering questions before you give mister legg at

554
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 5: the courtesy of asking the question. Okay, this is not

555
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 5: one hundred meters sprint. We've got all week, and for

556
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 5: that matter, it's been nine years since Bronwin went missing.

557
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 5: There's no need to rush your evidence. Now take your time,

558
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 5: think about the questions you're being asked, and think and

559
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 5: consider your answer.

560
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: Thank you your worship and Michelle's recollection of Bromwin shortly

561
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: before her disappearance, having said words to the effect, if

562
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: anything happens to me, would you please look after Crystal

563
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: was on John's lawyer's mind.

564
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 3: Had that topic, that is, something potentially happening to Bronwin

565
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 3: and Crystal being looked after by you? Had that ever

566
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: been raised by Bronwin prior to that.

567
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 8: In July of nineteen ninety one.

568
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 7: So sometime just after that, we had a phone call

569
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 7: to our house and Bromwin was upset and she was

570
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 7: talking about wanting to leave, and the talk was her

571
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 7: coming back to Sydney, and at that stage she was

572
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 7: kind of hinting at staying with us, but we at

573
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 7: that point lived in a small home and we really

574
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 7: didn't have a lot of room. And I said to

575
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 7: her that she was going to come back and live

576
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 7: or wanted to move back, that I'd help her try

577
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 7: and find somewhere to live in Cronulla. And at that

578
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 7: point she was talking about if anything ever happened to her,

579
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 7: would we look after Crystal.

580
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 8: She'd said that on more than one occasion.

581
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 3: Paragraph fourteen of your statement, it's the conversation with Bronwin

582
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: where she says words to the effect everything will be okay.

583
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 3: You'll understand in a few days. Yes, that statement occurred

584
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 3: in the last conversation that you ever had with Bronwin.

585
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: Is that right?

586
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 7: That conversation happened just prior to her disappearing, like just

587
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 7: in the day's prior.

588
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: It struck you as an unusual thing to be said,

589
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: did it at the time?

590
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 8: It is just a comment. I couldn't put it into context, so.

591
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 3: I understand now, Sergeant Detective Sergeant Discan makes this entry

592
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 3: on three June ninety ninety three at two pm. On

593
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 3: three June ninety ninety three, I had a long conversation

594
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: with sister in law Bronwin, Michelle Reid zero two five

595
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: four seven five eight zero. Now is that your phone number? Yes,

596
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three. Yes, she is very concerned about

597
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: the missing person.

598
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 8: Can you tell me that date again.

599
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 3: Third of June nineteen ninety three. Okay, So, as at

600
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: three June you would have been very concerned about Bronwin,

601
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: would you.

602
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,719
Speaker 7: Well, she just spit on sixteenth and May and what

603
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 7: day again, the third of June.

604
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 3: The third of June, I think it was twenty seven

605
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: may was it that the missing person's noticed when it

606
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: was formally lodged?

607
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 8: I don't know.

608
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: And you would have said that to Detective Sergeant Discott, wouldn't.

609
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 8: She we're concerned about her?

610
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

611
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: I would have said that more likely than not.

612
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 8: What else did I say?

613
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 3: He says? Stated, this is you? Yeah, stated that the

614
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 3: actions of the missing person are identical of what her

615
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: mother did. Now did you say that?

616
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 8: Say that again?

617
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: I read it to you.

618
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 8: It's hard to I know what you mean, but no,

619
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 8: just read it.

620
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 3: And I'm reading it word for word. Yeah, the actions

621
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: of the MP, Yeah, are identical of what her mother did. Then, now,

622
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 3: just pausing there, if you could hold that in your mind.

623
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 8: Yeah.

624
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 3: It then goes on and says the MP and her

625
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 3: sister and brother.

626
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 8: The MP and her sister and brother.

627
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 3: Person.

628
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 8: I've got no recollection of that conversation.

629
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 3: Let's just do it step by step.

630
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 8: Yep.

631
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 3: Can you recall at some stage talking to Detective Sergeant

632
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 3: Discan about bron Wan's mother's disappearance? Just a yes or no.

633
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 3: We'll get us there to start with.

634
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 7: I honestly cannot recall talking to him about anything to

635
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 7: do with Bromman's mother's disappearance.

636
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 3: You can't recall one way or the other. No, So

637
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 3: you may have said it, but you can't recall saying

638
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 3: anything about it.

639
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 8: I know that John was suggesting.

640
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 3: It, ma'am. Just deal with my question, but I don't know.

641
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: So what you seem to be saying is you may

642
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: well have talked to Detective Sergeant Discan about Bromlin's mother,

643
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 3: but you're just not sure one way or the other.

644
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 7: I don't see what Bromlan's mother has anything to do

645
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 7: with it.

646
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 8: To be honest with.

647
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 3: You, well you might not, but if you'd be kind

648
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 3: enough just to answer the question.

649
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 7: Well, I'm trying to, but I can't understand why I

650
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 7: would say it when I don't.

651
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 8: Know, missus reed, I don't remember saying it.

652
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: The deputy State Coroner spoke up to try to explain

653
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: to Michelle why she would be better off answering the

654
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: questions rather than analyzing the relevance of the questions.

655
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 5: You may not understand the nature of the questioning. Mister

656
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 5: Leggatt has got reports in front of him, prepared by

657
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 5: Detective Sergeant Discan, and obviously in this investigation, we've got

658
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 5: to look at everything, including what Detective sergeant Discan wrote

659
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 5: down in June, which was very close to the date

660
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 5: when Bronwin disappeared.

661
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 8: I don't remember the conversation now.

662
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 5: The notes that Detective Sergeant discin are purported to be

663
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 5: notes of a summary of a conversation he had with you.

664
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 5: All mister Leggot is asking you now is do you

665
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 5: recall that conversation and do you recall saying things? The

666
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 5: detective Sergeant Discan has made a note of no. A

667
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 5: lot of the questions you can answer with a yes

668
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 5: or a no answer. You don't have to comment as

669
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 5: to its relevance. That's for me to decide.

670
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 8: Okay.

671
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 3: The detective sergeant goes on doing conversation. The MP missing

672
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 3: person informed her that she was involved in a relationship

673
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: with a solicitor with a name similar to Copenhagen. Can

674
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 3: you remember something like that being the topic of a

675
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 3: discussion We.

676
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 8: Talked about Broman going to a solicitor.

677
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 3: Does that name ring any bells?

678
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 8: No, not a.

679
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 7: I don't remember the part about the relationship, but the

680
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 7: talking about Bromwin seeing a solicitor.

681
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, that may have been talked about. I do remember that.

682
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 3: Does the name Copenhagen ring a Bell.

683
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 8: The name Copenhagen.

684
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 7: I remember somebody, and it may have been Kim talking

685
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 7: to us, and Kim is Andrew's house sister, and she

686
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 7: had talked about, well, talk to Bromwin, and she had

687
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 7: seen and spoken about going to see a solicitor. And

688
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 7: I couldn't remember the name. And that name just just

689
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 7: a funny sounding name. I remember that because it was unusual.

690
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: So who was the solicitor with a name like Copenhagen.

691
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: I believe that the man was, in fact Graham Holland,

692
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: and that somehow, in the way that it's been related

693
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: to Detective Discan, Copenhagen, which is the capital city of Denmark,

694
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: has been conflated with nearby Holland, more commonly known as

695
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: the Netherlands. In episode five, you heard this excerpt from

696
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: one of Detective Discin's running sheets.

697
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 9: On June tenth, interviewed solicitor Graham Holland of Byron Bay

698
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 9: states that he had been consulted by the missing person

699
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 9: on May four regarding dissolution of marriage, property settlement, and

700
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 9: custody of the two girls, which was to take priority.

701
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 9: The missing person was in fear of returning to the

702
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 9: family home if the husband should return from Sydney whilst

703
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 9: she was residing there. Solicitor Holland stated that she had

704
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 9: very little money and was only concerned about the welfare

705
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 9: of her two little girls.

706
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: Nobody, however, has suggested to me that Graham Holland was

707
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: in any personal relationship with Bromwin.

708
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: Had you heard the name Pendragon mentioned by Bronwann or

709
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 3: anyone in the course of this.

710
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 8: No, that doesn't really mean anything.

711
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 3: The name of a clairvoyant Pendragon, not Pendragon. I've got

712
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: another topic. When he looked inside the boot of the car,

713
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 3: there could well have been an LPG cylinder in the back.

714
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: You just don't remember one way or the other. Is

715
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: that fair comment?

716
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: Yep, your worship.

717
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 3: I'm instructed to state for the record that the vehicles

718
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 3: purchased from Byron Bay Taxis and on my instructions there

719
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 3: was a seventy liter LPG cylinder in the rear of

720
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 3: the car when he purchased it. Subsequently, Thank you, your worship,

721
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: Thank you, missus reed.

722
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: The evidence of Gary Jackson, otherwise known as Jacko, was

723
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: relatively short. Jacko and Bromwin were clearly very fond of

724
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: each other. They might i have ended up in a

725
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: relationship if Bromwin had not disappeared. Matt Fordham asked Jacko

726
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: about that relationship.

727
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 6: And Sir, just a couple of matters. In your statement,

728
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 6: you described that you befriended Bronwin in the weeks before

729
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 6: she disappeared in nineteen ninety three. Is that correct?

730
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 3: That's true?

731
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 6: And then she gave you the impression that she was

732
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 6: keen on a relationship with you. Is that correct?

733
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 2: That's true?

734
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 6: And sir, you say in your statement that Bromwin disclosed

735
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 6: to you that mister Winfield used to sit in a

736
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 6: car outside her flat watching her flat. Is that correct?

737
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: That's true?

738
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, sir, do you remember how long before she went

739
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 6: missing she told you this?

740
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: Jacko responded that it would have been about four to

741
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: eight weeks before she went missing, and he mentioned that

742
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: he had left Lennox Head three to four weeks before

743
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: Bromwin disappeared. Matt Fordham produced a letter that Gary Jackson

744
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: had written to Bromwin. It had a date stamp of

745
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: April twenty nine, nineteen ninety three, and the location was

746
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: listed as well christ Church, New Zealand.

747
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 6: So it's clear, sir, that you've arrived in christ Church

748
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 6: in late April nineteen ninety three. Is that correct?

749
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: Yes.

750
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: Jacko had told Glen Taylor in nineteen ninety eight that

751
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: Broman was concerned about John having been harassing her on

752
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: the phone. Jacko had said that he had only visited

753
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: Bromwin at her Byron Street flat during daylight hours, perhaps

754
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: three or four times. Jacko was alive to the possibility

755
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: that he could become embroiled in their divorce proceedings. That's

756
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 1: what he had told Glen Taylor.

757
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 6: Did you ever see mister Winfield sitting outside her flat

758
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 6: or were you ever present when any of those phone

759
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 6: calls were received by Bromwin.

760
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: No?

761
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 3: I was never there when a phone call was received.

762
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: I did.

763
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: Broman did point to me one day that John was

764
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 3: parked out there.

765
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 2: The car was there.

766
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 3: You could see the car. It was a white Falcon

767
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 3: with a taxi ariel in the center of the roof.

768
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: It was pretty obvious. I knew the car from around town.

769
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 3: The phone was disconnected from the wall on several occasions,

770
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 3: so as the phone calls couldn't be made in.

771
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 6: When you say the phone was disconnected from the wall,

772
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 6: that is at the flat and Byron Street. Is that correct?

773
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 3: The flat and Byron Street.

774
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 6: And did it appear to you as though the phone

775
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 6: had simply been moved out of the socket and taken

776
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 6: off the wall, or had it been ripped out? Or

777
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 6: how did it appear to you?

778
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 3: It seemed to me like it had been removed from

779
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: the wall at the socket at the wall.

780
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, got up.

781
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 3: Now, is it the case that Bronlin, when you were

782
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 3: in her company from time to time, pointed to a

783
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 3: vehicle and said John is in that vehicle?

784
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: No?

785
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 3: Or did you were you actually able to see him inside?

786
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 3: There was only one incident, only one. Yeah, I don't

787
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: know if you know the residence that Brown was in.

788
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 3: It's alongside the Ampholse service station. There's a fence there

789
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 3: and it's pretty well surrounded. You used to come through

790
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 3: the back entrance and if you look down the driveway

791
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 3: you could see the car park across the street. There

792
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: was only the one time, but it was pointed out

793
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 3: to me on the one time that I remember what

794
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 3: time of day was that approximately? Can you remember? It

795
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: could have been mid to late afternoon, from three o'clock

796
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 3: to four point thirty. And did you see John in

797
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 3: the car or was it empty? No, I couldn't say

798
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: that I could see John in the car.

799
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: The inquest heard next from Donald Apps.

800
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 6: And so is it the case that you live in

801
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 6: Lennox Head and have done so for more than twenty years?

802
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 6: Is that correct?

803
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 2: That's correct?

804
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,479
Speaker 6: And is it the case that around nineteen eighty nine

805
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 6: or nineteen ninety you met John Winfield?

806
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 2: Yep?

807
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 6: Is it the case that you were assisting him when

808
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 6: he was building his house at Sandstone Crescent, Atlantics Head.

809
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 10: I give him a hand for a small while that

810
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 10: me back wouldn't put up with it. I was very

811
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 10: disappointed that I wasn't able to help him with it more.

812
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 6: And so this address in Sandstone Crescent, it's a different block,

813
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 6: is that right.

814
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: That's where I first met John. Yeah, at the other.

815
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 10: Place, because his particular work was very neat, as one

816
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 10: bricklayer to another.

817
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 6: And is it the case that you're aware that mister

818
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 6: Winfield's marriage unfortunately failed and the house which had been

819
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 6: begun in Sandstone Crescence, Yeah, was eventually sold in complete.

820
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 6: Is that correct?

821
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

822
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 6: So in your statement you described that John Winfield has

823
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 6: quite a possessive nature towards Bronwin, and that he was

824
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 6: fairly dominant and liked to make the decisions. Were there

825
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 6: any particular incidents that you can indicate to us led

826
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 6: you to that conclusion.

827
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 10: There's one. It's only really a one time. It was persistent,

828
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 10: if you call it. That was they were having an

829
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 10: argument out in front there about some matter, and it

830
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 10: went on for about three hours. And I stayed in

831
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 10: the room because well, I hope they get rid of

832
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 10: their problems. It was Bronwan came back into the house

833
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 10: and I was just making a cup of tea and

834
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 10: she came down and said that she wanted some money

835
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 10: to go on to a wedding.

836
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 2: I think it might have been a brother's wedding.

837
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 6: Is this a wedding in Lennox Head or down in Sydney?

838
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 10: No, No, the one in Sydney. I think it was

839
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 10: a wedding.

840
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 2: And he didn't want to give her the money, like

841
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: you know.

842
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 10: Because obviously, after all his problems, I thought it he'd

843
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 10: be very short of money actually, and I didn't know

844
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 10: how he could manage the way he did.

845
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 6: And did you see any violence between John and Bronwin?

846
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: No violence between them. No.

847
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 6: And you say that after the house was completed and

848
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 6: that John and Bronwin moved into it. You went and

849
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 6: visited them in that house a few times? Is that correct?

850
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:50,479
Speaker 2: Yeah?

851
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 10: John maintained a very clean and clinical type house. I

852
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 10: thought it was sort of congucive with his bricklaying work.

853
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 10: He was always very neat and tidy.

854
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 6: And was this a trait that was normally exercised by

855
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 6: John or by Bronwin or by both of them equally?

856
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 2: I'd say the neatness would be by John. Yeah.

857
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 10: I think Bromlin's house where I don't think she'm be

858
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 10: too fussy about work.

859
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 6: Did you ever see mister Winfield get angry about the

860
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 6: standard of the housework?

861
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: Not really, nay.

862
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Donald b Apps about a part of

863
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: his nineteen ninety eight statement in which Donald had said

864
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: he found it unbelievable that Bromwin would cease all contact

865
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 1: with her two girls.

866
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 6: Were there any particular incidents or events that you saw

867
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 6: that would lead you to that conclusion.

868
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 10: Well, Bromlin was always pretty meticulous about the way she

869
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 10: is to dress them, and also you could tell by

870
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 10: her in the bathroom, shampoo and things of that nature.

871
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 10: They were very well looked after nice and clean and tidy, Sir.

872
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 6: The last paragraph of your statement, you described, Sir, that

873
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 6: you remember Bronwin telling you once that John could become violent,

874
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 6: and that you say that Bronwin said to you that

875
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 6: John had got very angry once with a young man

876
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 6: who had apparently had a relationship with his eldest daughter,

877
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 6: and that he pulled a paling off the fence and

878
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 6: was going to hit the bloke with it. Do you

879
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 6: recall that conversation with Bromwin, Yeah, he got angry.

880
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 10: I don't know whether it was at himself or whether

881
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 10: it was Bromwin, or whether it was the young man

882
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 10: or not.

883
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 6: And so you also recount in your statements that you

884
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 6: had heard that on one occasion, John was supposed to

885
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 6: have smashed a fellow's windscreen with a rock after he'd

886
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 6: interfered with him while he was surfing at Lennox Head,

887
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 6: and you say that you think that it may have

888
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 6: been Wayne Lazarus that had told you that.

889
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

890
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 6: To these observations, do they surprise you about John or

891
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 6: do they accord with your knowledge of John Winfield?

892
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 10: Well, I think anybody smashing his windscreen would be a

893
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 10: surprise to anybody there's a lot of things happen in

894
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 10: the surf rage. There's some people with the laws of

895
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 10: surfing fraternity that certain things are not allowed to be done.

896
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked Donald Apps about a conversation that he

897
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: had with another man, Wayne Lazarus, about John's purported surf rage.

898
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: In the last few days, You've spoken to Wayne Lazarus,

899
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 3: haven't you. Yeah, And you checked with him as to

900
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 3: whether he told you the story about John and a

901
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,760
Speaker 3: rock and some surf rage. And Wayne told you he didn't.

902
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: He can't remember, he.

903
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 3: Said, he said it wasn't him who told you.

904
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 2: He just said he just couldn't remember.

905
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 1: One of Broman's good friends in Lennox Head, was the

906
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: last witness on what had been an exhausting and long

907
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 1: day of evidence. I'm not going to disclose her full

908
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: name because she has asked for anonymity. We've called her

909
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: Joan when I've interviewed her. In early episodes of the

910
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: Bromwin podcast series, Joan was asked by Matt Forden about

911
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: a conversation that Joan had with Bromwin about her marriage

912
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: problems with John. She remembered Bromwin telling her about a

913
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: conversation Bromwin had overheard between John and his father. John's

914
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: father was visiting at Sandstone Crescent. Bromwin had told Joan

915
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: that she'd heard John tell his dad that he would

916
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: have a better chance of holding onto the house if

917
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: the children were in John's care. Joan was one of

918
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: the last people to see Bromwn alive. She spoke to

919
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: Bromwin on the Sunday morning before her disappearance, and Bromwin

920
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: did not disclose anything that suggests she was about to

921
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: go away or that she wanted to go on any

922
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:04,720
Speaker 1: kind of break.

923
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 6: And when Bronwin was telling you about this conversation that

924
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 6: she'd overheard between John and his father, did she say

925
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 6: whether she'd had any plans for the future or anything

926
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 6: that she was intending to do.

927
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, she was intending to move out.

928
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 11: And at one stage she had told me that he

929
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 11: had offered her and I don't remember the amount, it

930
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 11: was either five thousand or ten thousand, and he offered

931
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 11: her that much to call it quits. And I said,

932
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 11: what you mean, that's it no more? And she said yes,

933
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 11: And I said I wouldn't be accepting that, and she said, no,

934
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 11: I don't intend to one day when he's out, I'll

935
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 11: get the place valued because there was no mortgage on it.

936
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 11: And she said she'd have to get one of the

937
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 11: real estate agents. One she couldn't get because he was

938
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 11: a friend of John's. She would get another one to

939
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 11: value it. And she did so one time when he

940
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 11: was away, and it was two hundred and sixty five

941
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 11: or two hundred and forty five thousand dollars.

942
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 6: And so Bromin's gone out and had the house at

943
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 6: Sandstone Crescent failure. Is that correct?

944
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 8: Yes?

945
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 6: Did you know how long before Bromwin disappeared that that occurred.

946
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 11: It was before she moved out. I think before she

947
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 11: moved out of the house into the unit.

948
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: Joan repeated that Bromwyn expressed concern about having custody of

949
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: the children.

950
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 6: Did you get the impression that Bromwin what was the

951
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 6: order of priorities for Bronwin? Was it her children first

952
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 6: and then the house second, and then the other things

953
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 6: later on? Or was it different her children?

954
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 11: Bronwin always loved children. When I had my youngest daughter,

955
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 11: I had her on a Friday. Bromwin was my first

956
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 11: visit to the hospital on Saturday morning. She didn't just

957
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 11: bring me a present and the baby a present. She

958
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 11: brought my other daughter a present, And I just don't

959
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 11: believe that somebody who thinks about kids feelings like that,

960
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 11: would walk out on her own.

961
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 1: According to Joan, Bromwin had told her that John said

962
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: he would kill her if she ever bad mouthed him

963
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: around town. That was the allegation.

964
00:51:58,560 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 6: Do you remember that conversation.

965
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 11: Yes, it may have been the same day she was

966
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 11: telling me about the abortion. I'm not sure what day

967
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 11: it was, but it was at my home and she

968
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 11: said that he had said to her, if you ever

969
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 11: bad mailed me around town, I'll kill.

970
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 6: You, ma'am. During your discussions with bron One in the

971
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 6: days and weeks before she disappeared, was it ever suggested

972
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 6: to you by her that she would leave and go away,

973
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 6: or go and live with a commune, or leave her

974
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 6: children in any way.

975
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 11: No, I can't even imagine Bronwin walking down the street

976
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 11: in the littlone living there. She never indicated going away.

977
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 11: When I spoke to her that morning that Sunday morning,

978
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 11: she said to me, like when she'd moved into the house,

979
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 11: that she found out one of the doors was actually

980
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 11: an interior door and not an exterior door, that she'd

981
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 11: have to get it fixed, and she said to me,

982
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 11: you'll have to show me how to mow the grass.

983
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 11: So she obviously wasn't planning on going away. She never

984
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 11: mentioned going.

985
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: When John's lawyer stood up, he repeated his now well

986
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: worn strategy of asking about Bromin's disclosures about her view

987
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 1: to the tarot card reader and clairvoyant Pendragon in nineteen

988
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: ninety three. Joan had attended one of those visits with Bromwin,

989
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: but she could not recall much about it. Craig Leggert

990
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: put a now familiar question to her.

991
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 3: If Bromwin had left the children alone in nineteen ninety

992
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 3: three in May of nineteen ninety three, without a babysitter

993
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 3: at night, would you have considered that to be quite

994
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 3: an unusual action for her?

995
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: John's lawyer appeared to be developing an argument that Bromwin's

996
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: behavior in the days leading up to her disappearance was

997
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 1: strange or unusual. Joan agreed that she could not imagine

998
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 1: Bromwin leaving the children alone unsupervised. Craig Legat tried to

999
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: press the point further, so if.

1000
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 3: She had done that, it would be just incredibly unusual behavior.

1001
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 3: Bizarre behavior for her, you think.

1002
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 11: Joan responded, well, I don't know about bizarre, but it

1003
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 11: would definitely be out of character for her, because, like

1004
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 11: I said, she thought so much about kid's welfare. Like

1005
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 11: I said, mine she brought my three year old at

1006
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 11: present when I had my baby. You know, she thought

1007
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 11: of kid's feelings.

1008
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: Finally, Craig Legott asked Joan if she ever had a

1009
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: conversation with Bromwin about Broman's mother, but Joan couldn't recall

1010
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 1: any details. Day two was almost at an end.

1011
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 3: Your worship just before we rise. Would it assist you

1012
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 3: to hear from Detective Sergeant Discott. We've heard evidence that

1013
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 3: he's gone on a period of six months leave or so.

1014
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 3: We don't know when that started, whether it coincided with

1015
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 3: the start.

1016
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 2: Of this hearing.

1017
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 3: We don't know whether he's just not able to do

1018
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 3: police duties, or whether he can sit in the witness

1019
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 3: box and give evidence, or perhaps whether you would even

1020
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 3: go to him if he's otherwise incapacitated.

1021
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 5: I don't know. Perhaps Sergeant Taylor might need to look

1022
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 5: at that. Yes, I mean, ideally it would have been

1023
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 5: good to have Sergeant Discott. He was the first one

1024
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 5: involved in this matter.

1025
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, yes, particularly given the conflict between some of

1026
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 3: the witnesses and what's recorded.

1027
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham shed some light on this. He had learned

1028
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: from Glenn Taylor that Sergeant Graham Diskin was off work

1029
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: and unable to attend court. Matt Fordham went on to

1030
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 1: say that he had asked Glenn Taylor to find Graham

1031
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: Discin's running sheets and documents, which he said should have

1032
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: already been made available at the start of the inquest.

1033
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 5: All right, but I think perhaps there should be something

1034
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 5: official put on the record. And Sergeant Diskin is a

1035
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 5: material witness, I mean he commenced the investigation. I think

1036
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 5: I need to see some certification that he's actively unable

1037
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 5: to attend court, the same as any civilian witness would

1038
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 5: have to satisfy me if they were appearing in coronial

1039
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 5: or criminal matters that they can't attend and give evidence

1040
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 5: because of sickness or some other reason.

1041
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: John's lawyer raised a fair point, and he had alleged

1042
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: earlier in the day that Graham Diskin's investigation was incompetent.

1043
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett pointed out that it was only fair for

1044
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: these comments to be put to Graham Diskin, and if

1045
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: he could not come to court, then it was appropriate

1046
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: for the coroner to be supplied with an independent statement

1047
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 1: of this. Karl Milavanovitch agreed. Before we conclude this episode,

1048
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: let's return to the question of Illawong. You heard the

1049
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: view of Dan Williams right at the start. I then

1050
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 1: spoke to Karina Berger, who has experienced in coronial investigations,

1051
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: and of course Bromwin's brother Andy as his wife Michelle

1052
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: sat with him at their home in the Shire, a

1053
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: short drive from Illawongkarina, what's your view?

1054
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 3: What do we do here?

1055
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 12: Well, for me, I think it's a no brainer that

1056
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 12: at this stage we should wait and leave things to

1057
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 12: the police and the coroner. First of all, we haven't

1058
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:00,399
Speaker 12: received a refusal from the coroner to Andy's request. What

1059
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 12: the coroner seems to have said is that you'll consider

1060
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 12: the application, but wants to make an informed decision and

1061
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 12: wants police to conclude their investigations. I think that's a

1062
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 12: reasonable position for the coroner to be taking, and we

1063
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 12: don't want to compromise anything that the police might be doing.

1064
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 12: We don't have great visibility of the police investigation, so

1065
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 12: we just need to be a little bit careful. But

1066
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 12: I think there's a major advantage of waiting, which is

1067
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 12: if the coroner and the police decide that a search

1068
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 12: a Villa Wong is appropriate, then they can use some

1069
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 12: mandatory powers to bring about that search, whereas we would

1070
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 12: be asking the owners of the property to cooperate voluntarily.

1071
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 12: The police would have expertise in these types of searches,

1072
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 12: and they'd be able to draw on those previous experiences

1073
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 12: and skills too. It's not a situation where the crucial

1074
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 12: evidence that Illowong is likely to be lost or damaged,

1075
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 12: so timing is not really critical in that regard. If

1076
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 12: the police were to conduct the search, then they would

1077
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 12: be hopefully in a good position to support both the

1078
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 12: ill Along homeowners and also Bronwin's family through that process,

1079
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 12: and they would have family liaison officers and people with

1080
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 12: specialist skills who could guide both of those families.

1081
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 3: Well.

1082
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 12: I think where this all leaves us is that it

1083
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 12: doesn't preclude us from rethinking our position down the track.

1084
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 12: If there were really extensive delays and Andy wasn't given

1085
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 12: a reasonable explanation about the delays, or if the coroner

1086
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 12: ultimately refused Andy's application and refused to grant the order.

1087
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 12: Then we could rethink our position. What we ultimately want

1088
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 12: is answers for the family and justice for Bronwin. So

1089
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 12: leaving the investigations to law enforcement, the police and the

1090
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 12: coroner is undoubtedly the way to go at this point

1091
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 12: in time.

1092
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: The risk is that we would find Romin's remains and

1093
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: then we'd find ourselves in a really difficult situation because

1094
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: we would have this highly incriminating evidence but being potentially

1095
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: accused of disturbing a crime scene.

1096
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 12: I think we need to give the police a good

1097
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 12: chance to undertake these searches as thoroughly and comprehensively as

1098
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 12: they can. We should only get involved at this site

1099
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 12: if that's the last resort, because the police and the

1100
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 12: coroner won't act well.

1101
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,919
Speaker 1: That all makes perfect sense. Okay, so mate, this now

1102
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 1: is being recorded.

1103
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 3: Yep.

1104
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 1: You've received a response which is basically saying there is

1105
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: an active police investigation and at the end of that.

1106
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 4: A decision will be made upon the completion of the

1107
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 4: current running investigation.

1108
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 1: This is an investigation that had been basically abandoned.

1109
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,919
Speaker 4: It correct in May. They didn't form me and Michelle

1110
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 4: that they finished their review, they didn't find any extenuating

1111
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 4: circumstances that they presumed that they could conduct any further

1112
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 4: investigations upon, and basically left it at that and said

1113
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 4: that unless some new information came to light, they couldn't

1114
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 4: do anything for us at that stage.

1115
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: And then the brom Win podcast series started in May

1116
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four soon after that, and new information started

1117
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: coming forward.

1118
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 2: And here we are.

1119
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: They've restarted their investigation behind the scenes. They don't talk

1120
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: directly to us about what they're doing, but we're aware

1121
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: that things are happening. It's just that we don't really

1122
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: have a bead on what it is and where it's going.

1123
01:00:58,080 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 4: They don't want to disclose anything.

1124
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:04,439
Speaker 1: We could go up to the owners of that house

1125
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: in Illowong. We could tell them everything we presume and suspect.

1126
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: We could ask them for permission to use drills and

1127
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: other equipment to try to determine if anything suspicious is

1128
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: beneath the garage and patio slab.

1129
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 2: Where do you see it? On?

1130
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: Where we go from here?

1131
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 4: Admittedly I am frustrated at the slow pace. I would

1132
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 4: like to think that we're at least now heading in

1133
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 4: the right direction. With the new information that's come to light,

1134
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 4: it should only be a matter of a couple of

1135
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 4: months to complete the few things that they possibly think

1136
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:55,479
Speaker 4: they need to do. We should know what their point

1137
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 4: of view is and where they're heading with a search of.

1138
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 1: Dan Williams earlier, and he cautioned fairly persuasively against us

1139
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: going up to the site and proceeding with a dig

1140
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: and excavation. In his view, we really should leave that

1141
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: to the police and the coroner, even though it's a

1142
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 1: bit of a gamble as to whether they're going to

1143
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: even do that.

1144
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 4: Before we actually went there and found something, or skinned

1145
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 4: showed something, or a dog reacted, we'd obviously have to

1146
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 4: hand the sight over to them. Anyway, we will see

1147
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 4: how they progress over the next day, eight weeks or so,

1148
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 4: and maybe regroup then and see where we're at.

1149
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: It'll be thirty two years in May. You're taking a

1150
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: bit of a leap of faith in saying no, let's

1151
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: leave it to the same people who we've felt let

1152
01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: down by it for three decades.

1153
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 4: I don't think we have a choice they do it.

1154
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 4: You've got to push your faith in these organizations to

1155
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 4: do their due diligence. It's my numbing name mind Drew Headley.

1156
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 4: It's my numbing that they've got exactly the same documentation

1157
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 4: or more documentation than what we have. Their review was done.

1158
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 4: They spent several months doing it with several different people

1159
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 4: because people were coming and going and leaving and whatnot.

1160
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 4: Fifteenth of May four, Yeah, it was when meon Michelle

1161
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 4: went and sat down at paramatter.

1162
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 13: It was really close to the release of the first

1163
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 13: episode in the Bromlin series.

1164
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 1: The police were done, they were finished.

1165
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 4: They exhausted all angles on the information that they had.

1166
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 4: That's when we were told there was nothing that they

1167
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 4: could really do.

1168
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: You have to take some comfort from the fact that,

1169
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 1: notwithstanding what they told you in May twenty four, almost

1170
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 1: a year ago, here we are and they have a reactivated,

1171
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: ongoing live investigation that they have clearly restarted, having told

1172
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 1: you it was done, dusted over correct.

1173
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 4: We can only just keep hoping that if iinally doing

1174
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 4: some due diligence and we're going to get somewhere.

1175
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 13: What I'm hearing from you is you want us to

1176
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 13: basically leave it to the police and the state coroner

1177
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 13: in relation to any search subterranean search of that property

1178
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 13: in Illawan where John was working, which we suspect could

1179
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 13: possibly be holding Bromin's remains.

1180
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, correct, correct, err on the side of caution and

1181
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 4: let it unfold how it runs.

1182
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1183
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1184
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1185
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1186
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1187
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1188
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1189
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1190
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1191
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callenon, Matthew Condon and David Murray, with

1192
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 1: assistance from Isaac Irons. Audio production for this podcast series

1193
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: is by Wasabi Wodeo and original theme music by Slade Gibson.

1194
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of

1195
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 1: brom and Winfield, and a shout out for all of.

1196
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 2: Our voice actors.

1197
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 3: There are some big parts here.

1198
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: They're not easy to do. We are grateful to everyone

1199
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: who has lent their voice, and particularly for the time

1200
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: consuming reconstructions of the inquest evidence. Outside the Reed family,

1201
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 1: there's John ty Burton as the police officer, Matt Fordham,

1202
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: Dan Sanke as the coroner, Dan Williams as Craig Leggett,

1203
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: and Glenn Taylor as himself, the then detective sergeant in

1204
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 1: Ballina Police.

1205
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1206
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 1: We can only do this kind of journalism with the

1207
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 1: support of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

1208
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and

1209
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: documents about this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet,

1210
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy,

1211
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:14,919
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver.

1212
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 3: Go to the

1213
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: Australian dot com, dot au and the subscribe