WEBVTT - 'My daughter’s murder could’ve been prevented’: Aggie Di Mauro Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.320 Join me now, as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:50.840 Can murders be prevented? It's a complex question, but one 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.080 that Aggie de Moro is not afraid to ask. Aggie 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.880 is the mother of Celeste, a vibrant twenty three year 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.400 old whose life was brutally taken from her. She was 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.319 stabbed to death in her own home by a former 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.840 co worker she hardly knew, who was consumed by obsession. Today, 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.120 Aggie joins me on I catch killers to make a 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.920 point that there's both heartbreaking and undeniable that Celeste's murder 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.960 could have been prevented. Nothing said in this conversation will 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.520 bring Celeste back, but Aggie's voice matters, and if the 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.920 right people are listening, perhaps lessons can be learned, accountability 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.480 can be demanded, and real change can follow. Because stalking 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.319 is not harmless, it's dangerous, and far too often it 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.319 is deadly. It's time to wake up before something like 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:44.240 this happens again. Aggie Tomorrow, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.000 Thank you Gary, and thank you for having me on. 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:51.320 I know that you'd rather not be having a conversation 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.360 with me in the circumstances that we're having the conversation, 0:01:54.560 --> 0:02:00.600 so I apologize upfront reliving things that are of very 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.559 painful to you. But in the lengthy conversations that we've 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.440 had in the lead up to this podcast, there's some 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:11.040 very important messages that you want to get across. And 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:15.519 I agree with you wholeheartedly on your concerns, concerns and 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:21.760 mixed with anger about what happened to Celeste, and the 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.960 fact that appears that no lessons have been learned from. 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.200 Them, none whatsoever. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.519 Despite your all your efforts. 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:35.360 Despite efforts, despite promises and commitments that were made, nothing's 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:35.799 been on it. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.320 I've seen the pain that homicide causes. Unless you've been 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.400 affected by it directly, nobody knows what you're going through. 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.120 So my condolences for the pain that you're carrying. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.480 Still. Thank you, Gary, I appreciate it. 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.600 Before we start speaking about what our concerns are, things 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.160 that haven't been done, I think it's appropriate that you 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:01.160 tell everyone the type of lady celest was, the type 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:03.080 of young girl, the daughter that you knew, just so 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.600 people understand what we're talking about here. 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:13.000 Celeste was twenty three years old. She had completed her 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:18.359 bachelor's degree in criminology and psychology. She still had one 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.760 more year, her honest year, to do, but decided to 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:26.200 take a gap. Found employment at an agency called SOCO, 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:31.600 which basically the department she worked in was handling contracts 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:37.480 for services Australia. Became a team leader within six months, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:44.880 was there two and a half years. Celeste was this kind, gentle, 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.640 loving young woman. She's just happy, go lucky, saw the 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:54.600 positive in everything, always wanted to help people if she could. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.440 She was just a ray of sunshine. Honestly, she'd walk 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.920 in a room and people were just drawn to her. 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:07.240 They were drawn to her presence, her smile, just everything 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:12.000 about her. So she was just a beautiful soul while 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:17.719 she started working there in June of twenty eighteen. About 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.400 a year later, she was handed over a new team 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.839 to lead. She was upset the night, she told me, 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.600 because she loved her previous team, but she'd done great 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.279 work with them, and one of the team manager's team 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.720 leaders had left, so they gave her a new team 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:38.680 to lead, and the beast we're going to refer to 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.000 was on that team. She was only his team leader 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:47.720 for about two months before he left the company. The organization, 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:53.480 and the way that came about was that he was 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.600 put on notice by management. One day he decided to 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.880 leave them in there, apologized for his behavior, and Celeste, 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.760 been his team leader, was required to walk him to 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:09.320 the exit door. She did so. She was telling me, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.080 you know, when she got home that night that she'd 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:17.520 experienced the most embarrassing moment of her life because she 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.080 felt quite bad for him. So she extended her hand 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:22.719 to shake his hand and wish him all the best 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.680 in his future endeavors. And what she didn't expect was 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.600 for him to kiss her on the cheek, so she 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.480 went apparently bright red. She said, Mama must have been 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.479 tomato read. I was so embarrassed, And in that moment 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:37.080 I thought she had just been a little bit of 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.120 a drama queen. I said, don't worry about it. I 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.200 didn't even know who she was talking about. I thought 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.520 it was just a young kid, possibly her age, with 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:45.880 some crush on her. 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.919 At twenty three, as much as Celeste with the thought 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:51.960 she was an adult. You are still a child at 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:52.760 that age, aren't you. 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.000 Yeah, she didn't even look twenty three. You know, she's 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.960 still got as for id in some venues. 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.120 So I saw the pictures her and I can understand 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.840 why that would happen. Her choice of career or study 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.680 criminology and psychology is an interesting path to go down 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.760 to too. Did she have dreams and aspirations what she 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:12.400 wanted to do. 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.240 She wanted to help people. She used to do volunteer 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.640 help for some of you know, these not for profit 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.360 organizations where people can call in if they need some 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.840 sort of help talking to someone. And she did that 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.240 for a while, volunteering with that. But you know, she 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.520 was a kind of kid at school, even in high school, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.240 if she saw someone on their own, she'd approached them 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.960 and see if they're okay. She just didn't really like 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.039 seeing people left out. So she just had this need 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.080 to assist people. And yeah, she thought that she was 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.760 a little bit undecided whether to go down legal studies, 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:56.279 lawyer sort of work or psychology, but she really wanted 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:01.000 to understand how people sought in, why they thought a 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:05.919 particular way, how she could help them think differently. So yeah, 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:07.680 she was very interested in that. 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.480 Well, sounds like she was a beautiful young lady that 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.800 would have contributed greatly to society. When we were discussing 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.720 about coming on the podcast, and it's not something you 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.760 openly wanted to do, but you wanted to get a 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:27.360 message across. You didn't want to relive what happened to 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.160 Celeste see aftermath, and it's a lead up to what 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.600 happened that perhaps lessons could be learned or not, perhaps 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.640 lessons should be learned. If it's okay with you, just 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.840 so our listeners understand what we're talking about here for 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.000 the few people that mightn't have heard about what happened 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.320 to your daughter, is it all right with you if 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.400 I just read out a summary of what's occurred. Yes, 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.360 of course, Celeste was twenty three years old when she 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.280 was brutally murdered in her family home in the early 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.920 hours of the morning on the sixteenth of November twenty twenty. 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.679 A former co worker, thirty five year old Leo Seiko, 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.120 who Celeste hardly knew, had become infatuated with her, and 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.360 in the twelve months leading up to her murder, he 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:17.320 bombarded her with messages, stalked her, and harassed her. It 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.600 made Celeste feel unsafe to the point that her mother 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.560 and the daughter went to the police for help. The 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.280 initial cries for help with the police were just dismissed. 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:30.560 When the situation escalated and the communications became even more 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.040 concerning and of her sexual nature, you went to the 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.960 police again. This time your concerns were taken more seriously. 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:43.400 A personal safety intervention order was taken out, which Seko 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.400 bridged after Celeste posted a picture of herself and the 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.840 new boyfriend on social media. Seko went to your home 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:53.920 in the early hours of the morning when everyone was sleeping. 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.160 Then he smashed his way in through her bedroom window 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.240 with a hammer and stabbed Celeste twenty three times in 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:04.960 a violent, frenzied attack. During the attack, Celeste attempted to 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.480 defend herself, as shown by defensive wounds on the hands. 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:14.400 This brutal attack lasted only minutes. You her mother were 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.280 awakened by the noise and went to your daughter's bedroom, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.080 and she was dead. The murderer of the beasts you 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.120 referred to him, and I fully understand that had run 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.679 away by the time you'd entered the room. Seika discarded 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.160 the phone he duws to harass and stalk Celeste, and 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.880 then handed himself into police. He denied aspects of the 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.320 offense and contested the matter through the courts for years 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.320 before finally pleading guilty after he could not convince the 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.760 courts he was not of a sound mind, and pleaded guilty. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.959 He was sentenced to thirty six years in prison. Aggie, 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:56.679 that's just a brief overview. I want when people listen 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.360 to this podcast, I want people to be angry. I 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.360 want people to be shocked. I want people to think 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.720 we've got to do things better. I think it's important 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.320 to just spell out in the way that I did 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.400 what has actually happened here. Quite often crimes like this 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.679 looked at as statistics people don't give it a lot 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:22.360 the thought it becomes a headline. Is there anything you 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.640 want to add to what I just read out? 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.520 Earlier? You said that I was a little bit reluctant 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.920 to just do an interview because telling Celicia's story really 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.480 does put a toll on me. But you're right that 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.520 there are messages I need to get out there. I'm 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:40.040 very angry. It's been five and a half years. This 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.640 is not going to subside for me. It can't. I'm 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:48.959 angry at many things. One the fact that absolutely this 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:53.680 could have been prevented. But outside of that, I've been 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:59.360 saying Celeste was failed again and again. She was failed 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.760 by not being taken seriously the first time, but she 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:08.400 was also failed once she was murdered. So you know, 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.280 you got to the fact that he received thirty six 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:17.960 years non parole thirty We have a system that will 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:26.520 continue to excuse and justify offenders, murderers wanting, wanting, and 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.920 not only them wanting it, but telling us that we 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:36.640 want this, absolutely wanting a murderer's rehabilitation, which I don't 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:41.839 believe any of us want. In Celeicester's case, in a nutshell, 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.600 and this was all came out at the plea hearing, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.720 and obviously the judge read it out in her sentencing remarks, 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:53.360 but in Soleicsti's case, you have an offender who decides 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:58.120 to stalk a young woman who didn't even know him 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:04.319 for well over a year. We have an intervention order 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.559 in place that he decides to breach with a three 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.000 and a half page letter where he is pleading with 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.520 Celeste to drop that intervention order. And there are many 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:20.120 messages in that intervention order that absolutely basically say drop 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:24.280 it or else. We don't drop it, and not because 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.200 I didn't consider it. I did want to do things differently, 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.560 and I'm sure we'll go there as well, but we 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:34.120 didn't drop it purely on police insistence to keep it 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.520 in place. He then buys a hammer and a knife 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.000 the very next day after he was arrested and released, 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.560 goes quiet for three months, leading us to believe that 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.679 he'd actually learnt his lesson and this was over, so 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.120 we've completely dropped our guard at this point. Three months 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:57.640 of silence from him goes as far as finding how 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.280 our address on Google Maps according to him, downhiads the 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.320 floor planned to the house to pinpoint Sir Leicester's room 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.679 and in the middle of the night, jumps a side gate, 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:13.440 smashes through her bedroom window and stabs her viciously. Twenty 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:21.920 three times we rallied for an appeal. The first time 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.520 didn't get anywhere with that. We rallied again, insisting on 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:31.080 an appeal. Still didn't get anywhere with that. Once these 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.800 decisions are made, they're made. I have not met and 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:40.080 I've met hundreds of people I'm not exaggerating here from 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:46.440 the cemetery and just around the community. Not one community 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.560 member has ever said to me that they didn't believe 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.000 he wouldn't get life. They were convinced he'd get life. 0:13:54.520 --> 0:14:00.520 The fact that the courts, the judges, everything they tell 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.120 us through the Sentencing Act, that everything they do they 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.200 do in the interest of the community, with community expectations 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:09.080 in mind. It's a load of rubbish. And this is 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.200 what I call gas lighting. They want to convince us 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:16.800 that we want what they offer, and we don't. 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.520 I understand where you're coming from. And in the numerous 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.200 discussions we've had the issue of life sentencing for murder 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.200 across the board that you raised, and I said, I'm 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.120 not an advocate for it, and I explain, explain my 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.240 way that each case needs to be, in my view, 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:40.560 judged on the circumstances of the case on its own 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.720 own merits. But what I also did say to you, 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.600 and I want to put this out and with the 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.400 research I've done on the lead up to the murder, 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.640 I have absolutely no doubt. Not that my opinion counts 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.040 for anything. You've got more of a right of an 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.280 opinion that being the mother of a the young lady. 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.800 But I believe this person should get life imprisonment. I 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:10.920 am campaign and I an advocate for rehabilitation if possible. 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.440 But this to me is and I bear in his 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.640 mind there was a homicide detective for a long time. 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.040 This is the worst type of crime. This was premeditated. 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.320 There was red flag's steps the whole way that he 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.480 could have walked away from it, and he continued on. 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:31.880 And I know there was a lot of discussion about 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.800 mental health, and you know it was he impaired at 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.240 the time of committing committing the offense. Well, he had 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.480 enough now to know what he did was wrong because 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.400 he went to the police. He also discarded the phone 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.000 that he was stalking and harassing your daughter on, discarded 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.360 the phone before he went to the police, and then 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.520 had selective memory about what happened when he went to 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.600 the place. So, Aggie, what I'm saying, what I'm saying 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.040 to you is I support your anger on this. I 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:03.720 can understand it. And this is coming from a person 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.840 that doesn't believe every murderer should get a life sentence. 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.160 But I for this one. If it's Judge Onett's merits 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:12.880 for the life of me, I can't see. 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.240 Gary. I'm still always going to continue to you know, 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.000 We're going to have differences of opinion where I'm referring 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:25.440 to murder murder when there is a question on whether 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.600 something deserves a life sentence or not. Maybe when we're 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:33.520 considering manslaughter. But murder is murder. Murder is the intentional 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:39.040 killing of a human being. And so to me, the 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.120 person they killed does not get a second chance. Let's 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:50.200 was twenty three. I will never understand or agree that 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:54.560 any murderer deserves a second chance. And we see, we 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.120 have seen it for years, time and time again, murderers 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:03.240 that are parolled only to commit murder again. I mean 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.960 me personally, I'd be locking up those the parole board, 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.679 the people who made decisions at the parole board, because 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:14.720 this is not how we should have to No family 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:19.760 should have to have their loved one murdered by someone 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:24.120 who had previously murdered because we have a system that 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:29.560 continues to insist that we rehabilitate them and give them 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.440 a second chance, and we've seen rehabilitation doesn't always work. 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.080 I look at it from the perspective of what was 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.879 the lead up to this case, what was behind this case. 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:43.080 This was just some beast as you call him, and 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:47.600 that sits comfortable with me, infatuated with a young woman 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:52.840 and just stalked and harassed repeatedly, was given warnings, was 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:57.400 brushed off politely, not humiliated. There wasn't a relationship. They 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:03.120 virtually didn't know each other. Just became obsessed. And when 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.520 he gets in trouble, when orders were taken out and 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:08.639 he breached those orders, and then that three and a 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.960 half page letter, it's almost like she did him wrong 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.800 and it was the revenge the preparation for it. 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.760 So it was absolute revenge. It was payback. It was 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.440 didn't you didn't listen to me dropping the intervention order. 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.720 You didn't listen to me. This is what I'm going 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:26.240 to do you know at the end of the day. 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.280 I know it's always been reported that the night that's 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:33.560 Less uploaded that photo. Let's just remember he bought the 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:38.680 hammer a knife in August, just after he'd been arrested 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:43.080 and released. He murdered Celeste in November. You know it 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.000 had to take I suppose what can we call it, 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.359 some courage to see through his plan. The nights uploaded 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.719 that photo was simply the when. It was, not the 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:59.200 why it was the when. This was pure revenge payback, 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.439 and that is exact exactly how the courts should have 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:02.040 treated it. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.359 I agree with you for what it counts. I agree 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:07.760 with you. If this isn't in the category of the 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.159 worst type of murder, I don't know what else you 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.960 need to add to it. So what we want to 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:20.119 talk about is, Okay, this has happened. We'll talk about 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.040 the lead up to it, but we'll also talk about 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.840 what's happened after it. Has any lessons been learned? And 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:29.520 I know you've been pushing and advocating for an inquest 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.200 to be heard in relation to this where they can 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.520 look at could have this death been prevented? Can you 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:39.960 tell me what's happened on that front in regards to 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:41.280 your efforts to get an inquest. 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.720 So first I just want to correct something here. I've 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.040 been pushing for an inquest because five and a half 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.720 years later it still hasn't taken place. But I was 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:53.919 never the one who I didn't even know what a 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:58.240 coronial inquest was when this happened. I was told from 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.159 day one there would be a coronial inquest, and I 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.240 was told that by the Attorney General I met at 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.760 the time with the Secretary of the Department of Justice. 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.879 Because obviously when I met with these people, I wanted answers, 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.400 and I was told that I would get those answers 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.600 after the coronial inquest. I was told those very same 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.879 words by the police Commissioner at the time when I 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.280 was introduced to him and his deputy. Again, I went 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.680 in there not to meet these people. I wanted answers. 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.040 How did this happen? Why did you allow it to happen? 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:37.480 Because I don't know. When you're introduced to the police 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:39.800 commissioner and deputy commissioner, you don't know what they know 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:44.359 about the local police station or how everything unfolded. And 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:48.080 again I was met with condolences and apologies and told 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:52.119 that an internal investigation had already begun and that whilst 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.639 they understood I wanted answers, they wouldn't be able to 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.359 give me anything until after the coronial inquest. So this 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.439 was something I was told from the get go. But 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.840 five and a half years later, there's still no inquest. 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.679 So the inquest, the thought of an inquest, and I 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.960 take on board what you're saying there. You didn't understand 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.920 the system. The thought was put in your head by 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.760 those people, the people in authority that will give you 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.080 answers after the inquest, And here we are five and 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:24.879 a half years later and there's still no inquest. 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.920 No inquest. In fact, the commissioner's words at the time 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:33.200 were that although he understood, he said, Aggie, I understand 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.640 and realize that this might not give you any solace, 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:40.560 but a coronial inquest will make findings and it'll teach 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:43.959 us what to do better next time. You know, I 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:48.400 did my research. I understood what the coronial inquest intends 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.640 to do, what it's going to look at the system failures. 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:56.679 How could this be prevented? So, given the significance of 0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:02.200 an inquest and why it's done, why hasn't it been done. 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.479 In fact, over the last five and a half years, 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:13.200 what's been done differently by Victoria police? Absolutely nothing. Intervention 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:17.960 orders are still being breached. Women are still being murdered. Okay, 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:23.240 we haven't heard murders in the context of say Celeste 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.800 where she did not she wasn't intimately involved with this person, 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:30.320 didn't really know him. The ones we hear about domestic 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:35.160 violence murders just as important. Intervention orders in place breached. 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:37.919 Nothing's been done different. 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:41.360 It's concerning, isn't it. Very You said you've done research, 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:43.560 and I know in speaking to you you've got your 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:49.200 head round so many different aspects. The inquest is determined 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.160 cause and nature of death. Well, that's been established through 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.399 the criminal courts. But could that death be prevented? And 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:57.560 that's what you were hoping to get from the inquest? 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:04.760 Yes, absolutely been prevented. What could the police have done differently? 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:07.920 There's so many things that could have been done differently, 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.639 but we want, we want the current to make those findings. 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:14.040 Have you been given a date for the inquest yet? 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:14.360 No. 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.240 Let's talk about the stalking aspect of the offense. I've 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:22.800 always had a concern about stalking. I think that it's 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.119 a very worrying, red flag type of offense. If someone's 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:31.120 stalking someone that there's a real concerns. In my experience 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:34.440 in the police, I don't think or police fully accept 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:38.600 that or fully understand it. I don't think the courts 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.480 understand it as well, and the politicians don't understand it. 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:45.240 One of the campaigns that you've been pushing through is 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:51.560 about getting more understanding of the offense and nature of 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:55.159 stalking and make sure that police respond to it in 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:57.920 an appropriate way. Can you tell me about your thoughts 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:00.680 and efforts in that regards well. 0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:05.600 Again, when this happened, the Attorney General at the time 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:10.639 asked the Victorian Law Reform Commission to do an inquiry 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:16.879 into stalking the laws around it, as well as the 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:20.919 laws or legislation around the Personal Safety Intervention Order. That 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:26.119 inquiry was done, it took eighteen months. It came up 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:30.639 with forty five recommendations. There were two reports, an interim 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:36.400 report and then a final report. The report was recommendations 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:41.560 specific for Victoria Police in which it made I think 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:45.800 it was nine recommendations which form part of the forty five. 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:53.199 So you know, going back to politicians don't understand it, 0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:57.440 police don't don't understand it, but an inquiry was done 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:04.680 and it's allowed them to know where legislation is lacking, 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:10.920 what police could be doing differently. Part of those recommendations 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:16.119 makes reference to what they refer to as SASH, which 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:20.760 the former Attorney General in Victoria decided through a sixty 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:25.040 minutes interview that was done just after that Beast was 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:31.439 sentenced to say that Victoria police had responded appropriately to 0:25:31.560 --> 0:25:38.280 Celesta's murder by trialing the SASH pilot, which at that 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:41.800 point she still couldn't say where it was at. They've 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:48.320