WEBVTT - What it’s like to wait for someone never coming home: Nicole Morris Pt. 1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.800 Detective see a side of life. The average person is 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.080 never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.279 One hundred and fifty people go missing every single day 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.680 in Australia. For the families left behind, there are no funerals, 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.720 no closure, no answers, just an unbearable silence where a 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.840 person used to be. It's a grief that has no 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.240 name because it never truly ends. I've seen the pain 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.760 up close and so as today's guest Nicole Morris. She 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.480 is a founder of Australian Missing Persons Register. And the 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.240 author of three books on the subject. For years, she's 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.840 been a fierce advocate, fighting to ensure that missing person 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:26.240 cases are treated with the urgency and seriousness they deserve. Today, 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.640 Nicole pulls back the curtain on what's really happening inside 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.880 the investigations, inside the institutions, and inside the lives of 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.520 people waiting for answers that may never come. Let's get 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:42.039 into it, Nicole Morris, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:44.679 Thank you so much, Gary, good to be here. 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.040 Well, we're going to have an interesting chat. You've certainly 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.520 covered a lot of stuff in your time and being 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.200 involved in missing persons, and I know from my time 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:59.200 in homicide, and I also from reading your books and 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.680 getting this sense of it, how many people are impacted 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.240 in this country by missing loved ones. 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.360 Oh, it's just an incredible number. And it's really not 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.440 a situation that's improving a lot. You know, there's almost 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.560 fifty thousand people a year go missing. It's about one 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.079 hundred and thirty a day. And concerningly, we've got two 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.680 eight hundred long term missing persons, and a long term 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.360 missing person is anyone who has been missing longer than 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.680 three months, So that's a huge number. So I feel like, 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.160 even though I've written three books about it, it's a 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.240 drop in the ocean as to how many people are 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:37.840 out there who need their voices heard. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.280 Well, I think a lot of people. When you see 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.040 reports in the media of someone that's disappeared, unless it 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.320 impacts on you directly or there's something significant about the 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.840 case that there's captured people's attention, we don't give it 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.360 a lot of thought until it strikes close to home 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:57.400 and it's someone that you know or associated with that 0:02:58.080 --> 0:02:59.000 just disappears. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:02:59.959 Absolutely. 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.120 I was sending out some early copies of the books 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:08.079 to people on Instagram, and typically those books to grammers 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:10.799 don't read a lot of true crime, so I always 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:12.440 sort of say, is this do you think that you 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.040 would be able to get through this sort of genre? 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.200 And one of them was so enthusiastic, Oh, yes, I'd 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.360 love to read this book. And then she sent me 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.360 her address to send the book to, and I said, 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.480 do you know what, there's a person in the book 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.480 who went missing about three streets from you. And she 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.800 was blown away because that had never occurred to her before, 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.120 that missing people are all around us, that it can 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.839 affect absolutely anyone at any time, because there's no there's 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.839 so many reasons for people to go missing. So yeah, 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:44.640 I think it's a surprise to people. 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.440 Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you say that because reading 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.360 your last book, Lost, there was a couple of a 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.880 couple of cases that you talked about disappearances, and it 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.280 sort of got my interest in it because I knew 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.000 the area, I knew the time, I knew the environment, 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.160 and I think when you look at the closeness of 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.720 the locations where people disappear, and you think that could 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.280 have been anyone, that could have been one of our 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.840 loved ones. Before we start. In your book Lost, you 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:18.599 dedicate it to Peter Rolf. Yes, I think it's appropriate. 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.200 I think we both agree on that. Talk about Peter 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.440 because Peter became a friend of mine. I knew him 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.120 when I was in homicide. He was a great advocate 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.960 for victims of crime, in particular homicide and missing persons 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.440 made life hell for police, politicians and everyone else. I 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.679 think would be fair the same. 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:41.960 Because he made he'd be proud of that. 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:46.560 They made everyone accountable. Where did you first meet Peter. 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.000 It was such a long time ago. I went to 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:55.120 Sydney for I think it was an anniversary birthday for 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.680 families and friends of missing persons by the new south 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.599 West government and we met at Parliament House, Old Parliament House, 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.560 I think in Sydney, and he came up to me 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.440 and I had known about his work because he was 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.000 such an advocate, and he just came up and introduced 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.839 himself and we were firm friends ever since, and he 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.720 was such a supporter of what I do. I think 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:20.560 also because he had had that personal connection with his 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.679 with his very close friend, former partner, who had been murdered. 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:29.920 But Pete also knew Stephen Jelfs who has been missing 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:33.560 since the seventies in King's Cross, So he had that 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.520 personal connection with a missing person and really went to 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.560 bat for them. And he was, as you say, one 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.159 of those people who just kept constantly emailing you, going, 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:44.919 this is what we need to do, this, this is 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.080 what I'm doing now, this is what we need to do. 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.560 We need to keep on at them, and he just 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:54.080 never gave up. And for his whole life he would 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:58.640 sit beside victims in court and just provide that comfort 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:00.920 and he helped so many people. 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.160 Yeah, he was tireless in his work, and you mentioned 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.880 he was touched by crime. I remember the case. It 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.839 was his partner, Stephen Dempsey, and it was a horrendous crime. 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:17.839 He was shot by a crossbow at Narrabeen Lakes and 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.719 talk about it now with respect to what happened to 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.560 Stephen and also the impact it had on Peter. But 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.200 when you understand the nature of the crime, you might 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:32.120 understand why Peter was so driven. After Stephen was murdered, 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:37.440 his body was dismembered and placed in a fridge. Police 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.800 discovered that in a fridge after the person who killed 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.160 Stephen killed another person, and the investigation led to that 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.680 it was horrific crime. I remember it well in the 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.440 time that I was working in major crime, and you 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.520 can understand someone like Peter Bean driven for a lifetime 0:06:57.560 --> 0:06:59.919 because it was a long time ago that Stephen was 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.559 heard that you can understand someone like Peter Bean driven 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.960 to make sure that these crimes are prevented as much 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.440 as possible, or if they do happen, to ensure that 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:14.920 they're properly investigated. Then my sense of Peter what he 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.920 would make he didn't hate police. It wasn't against police 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.280 or courts or whatever. He just wanted to make sure 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.640 that things were done properly and certainly jumping out in 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.400 your book, they see some failings in systems and not 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.720 necessarily blaming individuals where things have slipped through the cracks, 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.200 and that was something that Peter really worked hard on 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.560 to make sure that didn't occur very much. 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:46.800 So, yeah, he was particularly an advocate for rewards, which 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.160 is a controversial issue in the missing person system, but 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.960 he really pushed for that. I could not count how 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.440 many emails and letters he would have written over the years. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.000 Can you to say please do this, you need to 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.200 do this. I'm requesting that you do this. They would 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:04.920 have known his name very very well. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.000 I can assure you they knew his name very well. 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.600 I always liked his name. There was other other people 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.200 that didn't like his name. I liked his name because 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.480 I knew if Peter was on the something, there was 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.080 going to be change a coming and coming soon so exactly. 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.360 And look what he achieved with the commission, the the 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.320 you know, the inquest and the investigation into the New 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:31.160 South Wales historic gay hate crimes. He was instrumental in 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.640 getting that happening and achieved you know, wonderful things here. 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:37.960 Well, look, it's good to talk about Peter because I 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.839 think the work that he does or did before he 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.040 sadly passed away, shouldn't be forgotten and we need people 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:50.440 want that to keep everyone on track. Absolutely Now talk 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:55.720 about missing missing persons. I don't think people fully appreciate 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.760 the impact that has. And the only way you can 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.720 discribe it, I think try to put yourself in that position. 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:04.880 Think of a loved one and then that loved one 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:09.480 just disappears and there is absolutely no answers. You don't 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.719 know what's happened to the person. You don't know if 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.240 the person's still alive. It's like carrying it. It's like 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.200 an ongoing nightmare. I think for people that have had 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:22.960 loved ones disappeared, you've been witnessed to that more than 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:25.880 most people in the work that you've done and the 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:30.720 advocacy that you've done for missing persons. Can you describe 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.200 the type of impact that you see from families that 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:34.600 have lost their loved ones. 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.040 In the missing person's world, we call it an ambiguous loss. 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:42.760 That's the term that they have coined for what it 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.000 feels like to have someone go missing, because you've got 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.360 that loss, but you don't know why you have that loss. 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.480 You can't sort of rationalize it in your mind because 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:53.600 you know that you've lost that person, but you don't 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.920 know why or where or how. So your brain probably 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:03.640 goes into more of a trauma because you're imagining what 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.000 has happened to that person and so many different scenarios 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.280 and you don't have any answers. So unlike someone who 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.640 dies in a car crash or a heart attack, you 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.560 know you've lost that person, but you know what's happened, 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.320 and so your brain can go, Okay, this is what happened. 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.440 I can accept this. This is the reality of the situation. 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.480 Whereas with a missing person, are they still alive, have 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.760 they been murdered, did they take their own life. There's 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.600 all of these scenarios that go around in your head 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:37.360 for decades, and it absolutely destroys people. You know, marriages 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:42.720 can fall apart, if a couple stops communicating with each other, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:45.319 if they've lost a child, if they've lost a brother. 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:50.720 Sometimes it can bring people closer together, but everyone copes 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.000 differently because we've all got different personalities, and some people 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:58.320 cope better than others. I was talking to Marcia Ryan's 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:02.560 brother Tony the other week and it struck me how 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.720 he copes with his sister's disappearance. He also lost a 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:07.679 sister in a car accident, so he's had a lot 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:12.320 of trauma in his life that he's very He's almost 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:16.760 casual about the way that he approaches the loss. He 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.960 just sort of says, well, whatever's. 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:21.880 Happened, I can't change it. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.240 I can just deal with it, So what's the point 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:28.880 in torturing myself in thinking what's happened? But not everyone 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.559 can get their mind there. Some people hyper focus on 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:34.480 the what if, what if? 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:34.880 What if? 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:40.679 And that's absolute torture to your brain and your soul. 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:45.760 And these families just have to live with that, often 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.840 for decades, and it never goes away. You'd think, perhaps 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.840 the public might think that it changes and it eases 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.319 and people move on and they forget about it. 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.520 But when I. 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:03.200 Interviewed Tony Farrington, whose sister went missing in nineteen seventy nine, 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.400 he sobbed during the interview. So did I. And it's 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:10.320 just as raw now as it was when he was 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.160 a very young man and his sister didn't come home. 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.800 Yeah, and it's interesting how people deal with it in 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.200 different ways, and those that can accept that it's something 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.319 out of their control. That's very enlightened view on it, 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.800 but it's not what most people can can get to. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:32.439 I saw the damageing homicide where the bodies haven't been 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:37.840 recovered victims of crime, and it adds another layer. And 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.120 it's hard to say what could be worse than having 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:44.000 a loved one murdered, having a loved one disappeared and 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.000 not knowing what's happened to that loved one. Can actually, 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.480 it can actually be worse. I say that with not 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.360 having personal experience, but just watching how the families react 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.640 when they just haven't got answers and it's a torture 0:12:57.679 --> 0:12:59.840 for them and ongoing torture for them. 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.200 Yeah, there was a mother of a missing woman and 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.080 we know that she was murdered murdered by a husband 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.760 in Victoria decades ago, and a quote that she said 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.040 always stays with me. She said, I'd settle for bones. 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:14.319 I'd settle for bones. You know, I know I'm not 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.679 going to get it back. I'd just give me a bone. 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:23.040 And that's what the Markham's got. They knew immediately Daniel 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.920 wasn't coming home, but they said, we just need a 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:27.600 little bit of him home. 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.360 Well, I saw it in a variety of cases, and 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.200 Matthew Levison one comes to mind with Mark and Faye Matthew, 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.560 and people that listen to the podcast would have heard 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:43.640 me talk about that particular case. But Matt disappeared and 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.920 for ten years Mark and Fay didn't know what had 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:51.120 happened to him. And when his body was eventually recovered 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:57.360 at the National National Park south of Sydney, I was 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.600 there when Matt's remains found. Mark and Fay had been 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.880 there and watching us dig in a national park looking 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.440 for their son's remains for I think it was four 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.920 weeks all up, it might have been even even more. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.559 And the pain and the emotion I saw on their 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.520 face when I had to walk from the location where 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.600 we found Matt, which was only about fifteen meters away 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.320 from where Mark and Fay were standing, and then tell 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:27.720 them that, look, I think we've found Matt. And they 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.000 both broke down and cried obviously, and we've talked about this, 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.600 I'm not talking about stuff that they don't want revealed, obviously, 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.720 very emotional for them. Watching that, it was almost like, 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.360 thank God, we've found him, but now it means he's 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:47.400 never coming home because when someone disappears. My assessment of it, 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.000 speaking to the families over the years, there's always that 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.240 smidgeon of hope, smidgeon of hope that the person's like 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:58.080 Matt was in his twenties, smidgeon of hope that he'd 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.600 turn up at the front door of the house ten 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.440 years later. Mark and Fay would have yelled at him, 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:05.520 what have you done to us? And then given him 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.600 a big cuddle. But you know, when the remains are found, 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.480 that's not going to happen. But yeah, I want people 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.120 and I talk about this because we're going to talk 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.040 about in the podcast today is what can be done 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.280 when people disappear. And a lot of the things that 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.920 can be done is what you've been championing for two decades. 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.160 There's an impact and we need to understand the impact 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.000 of when someone just disappears. Mark and Fay would go 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.160 down to the National Park on weekends with a shovel 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:40.440 and a madic looking for Matt's remains randomly and working 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:44.800 out theories, working on theories looking for Matt's remains, And 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.280 that's how they were spending the ten years since the 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:51.640 time Matt disappeared. So that's the type of type of impact. 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.120 Absolutely. Yeah, Mark and Favor are good friends of mine 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.120 and they are some of my favorite people in the world. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.560 And on a personal note, I want to thank you 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.040 for what you did for them because I know how 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.000 much they hold you in the highest esteem because they 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:09.400 couldn't have got through this without you. 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.640 That's nice of you to say, And they look they're 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.160 close friends. They're like family to me now. But again, 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.360 inspirational people because it's not just what they did to 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:24.080 the resolve Matt's situation, it's the amount of people that 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.400 have helped. Quite often, when someone's in a bind and 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.800 they need some advice, so I phine Mark and Fay 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.640 and say, hey, could you speak to this person, because 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.520 I think they're a wealth of knowledge how to take 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.600 on the system pushing pushing. 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:41.640 And what we were talking about before about how different 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.520 people cope with different things. Mark and say could have 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:50.840 broken apart. Instead they became glued together. And Mark didn't 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.920 break down. He broke down obviously when they found Mattie, 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.440 but he became angry and he's still angry, and that 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:02.440 anger fuels his campaign and has ultimately been so helpful 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:02.800 to him. 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.960 Well, I haven't been the end of Mark's anger. But 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.119 I've been on the anger and of anger sometimes and 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.560 that was quite scary. And she'll she'll laugh laugh at that, 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:17.119 but understandable. It's the emotions. And I keep talking about 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:21.320 the emotions because I want people involved in anything that 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.800 leads to the resolution of someone having disappeared to understand 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.320 the impact. And I think we lose sight of the impact. 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.199 I'll tell you another story, and I think I've spoken 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.879 about it publicly, and I'm sure that they wouldn't mind. 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:40.760 With William Tyrell, when William Tyrell disappeared his foster parents, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:42.480 and there's been a lot said about that. I'm not 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.600 going to buy into the whole story there. I'm talking 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.840 about an aspect of that investigation. When I took over 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.840 the investigation, I was speaking to his foster parents and 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.640 obviously they had William's room set up at home and 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:00.679 they said to me, and I can't even remember at 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.040 what stage of the investigation this was. I was on 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.240 it for four years, so it was during the period 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.760 i'd say in the first year or two. They've asked me, 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:13.800 as the officer in charge, Yeah, in an emotional conversation, 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.920 when do you think we should pack William's room up, 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.080 and that, to me, it just sort of typified what 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:25.280 we're dealing with here, is Yeah, at what point, at 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.040 what point do you say we're never going to see 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.680 this young young boy again? Do we pack his room 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:35.040 up like that? It just broke my heart when they 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.280 asked that question. I thought, geez, that really brings it 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.840 home what the emotion is when someone disappears. 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:45.439 No answers, absolutely, yeah, William's case. I'm asked about it 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.879 all the time. I assume you are, and I never 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.320 talk about it. I talk about it in their general terms. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.800 The loss of a child is obviously the worst thing 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:01.720 that can happen to anyone. And I think even even 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:03.880 when I was on Sunrise a couple of years ago 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.640 and they asked me out of the blue about to William, 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.880 who has never been in any of my books. I've 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.760 never written about Willim, but I always think back to 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.320 the very first day that I knew that he had 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.480 gone missing, and I actually got a phone call from 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.080 someone who was on the scene, so I got his 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:25.159 information out there really quickly, and like everyone else, we 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.720 just thought, okay, little boys wandered off wearing a bright 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:32.119 red suit. We'll find him really quickly, and if we 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.560 stripped back everything that's happened since then, and if I 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.960 go back to that very first day, it was the 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.879 very first information I got. So the first words that 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.040 were out of the mouth of the person that was 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.240 on scene who called me said, it's a really nice 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:53.160 family and they are absolutely frantic. And that is the 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.200 one thing that has kept in my brain since twenty fourteen, 0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:01.280 that they were absolutely frantic, and that feeling never goes away. 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.280 It never goes away. And as you said, when do 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.080 you stop feeling frantic? When do you stop that feeling 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.520 of We've all as parents, we've all turned around at 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.880 a theme park and you thought that you're seven year 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.880 old was right behind you, and suddenly they've. 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:18.080 Been distracted and wounded off, and. 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:22.200 That panic and that panic feeling can last for years. 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.000 With the family of a missing person, you can be 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:24.560 missing child. 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.440 It's frightening. And I think any adult that has control 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.880 of young children have experienced that moment of panic when 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:35.600 you turn around and the child's not where you thought 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.639 they would be, and the urgency of what needs to 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:45.040 be done right from the start. So when we talk 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.840 missing people now, a lot of missing people are found 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.160 and I wanted to bunk and we'll debunk this one 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.919 straight up and we might touch on it again. That 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:57.920 the amount of people that say to me, you can't 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.199 report someone missing in the first twenty four hours, and 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:04.280 just can we hit people out of the head with 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.399 the fact that yes you can. And if anyone walks 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.080 into a police station and the police officer tells you 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.200 we can't take a report until the person's been missing 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:20.800 for twenty four hours, just say bullshit, Yeah, yep, it's circumstances. Manager, Yeah, yeah, 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.320 take their name and say thank you very much. Who's 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.000 your supervisor. I'd like to speak to the supervisor, because 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:33.320 it's circumstances that dictate whether how something should be be 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.760 followed up. Have you with all the hundreds of people 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.000 that you've spoken to that have been involved in reporting 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.800 matters to the police, is that something that often comes 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:48.359 up that people aren't taking the report or not just 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.720 police not taking the report, people thinking they can't report 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:53.880 the disappearance all the. 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.560 Time, and people still say, oh, you know, this is 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.680 what's happened. My roommate didn't come home, I can't get 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:01.800 hold of brother. What should I do? Go to the 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:03.800 police now? Oh, isn't it a bit early? Should we 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.640 wait a bit longer. I don't want to a lot 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:08.640 of people say I don't want to get them into trouble, 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:13.000 like there's no trouble. You know, Oh, he'll be angry 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:15.639 with me if I go to the police. So you 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.639 know what if something's happened. And I remember with the 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:22.120 Carla McBride case, they were trying to report her as 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:22.800 a missing person. 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:25.000 Tell us a little bit about that if you could. 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:29.359 It was New South Wales round Newcastle. Carla McBride was 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:34.120 a young woman who disappeared, just didn't come home. Was 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:38.320 supposed to meet someone, a young Indigenous woman, and they 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.239 tried to report her as missing. And the police said, oh, 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.040 you know, she's well known to us, so the sort 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:49.000 of person she is, she'll turn up. It'll be fine. 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:51.200 And they came to me and said what do I do? 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.080 And I said, well, I'm putting and sometimes I will 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.480 very cheekily put the information out there in as a 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:00.640