WEBVTT - On the ground at the Herzog protests

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<v Speaker 1>What are you hoping to achieve by coming here today?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm hoping to help show the abhorrence that a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of Australians have for this visit and how insulting

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<v Speaker 2>that is in the context of our multicultural community.

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<v Speaker 1>Thousands of protesters here in Sydney. It's Monday night and

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<v Speaker 1>they're demonstrating against the controversial visit by Israeli President Isaac Hertzel.

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<v Speaker 1>He was invited here by the Prime Minister Anthony Alberizi

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<v Speaker 1>after the Bondai terror attack earlier in the day. He

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<v Speaker 1>visited Bondai and later wreath to honor the fifteen people

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<v Speaker 1>killed in the attack. But these protesters say Hertzong is

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<v Speaker 1>not welcome.

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<v Speaker 3>The fact that our government has invited a member of

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<v Speaker 3>the Israeli government here to represent Jews, I think is

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<v Speaker 3>highly offensive to many in the Jewish community.

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<v Speaker 4>Who's a person.

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<v Speaker 5>Who has said that all Palasinian people are responsible for

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<v Speaker 5>what happened on October seven and has incited that demonization

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<v Speaker 5>of a.

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<v Speaker 4>Whole group of people, and it's just not just and

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<v Speaker 4>it shouldn't be here.

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<v Speaker 1>The New South Wales government put limits on the march

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<v Speaker 1>and protesters challenged it. They lost in a last minute

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<v Speaker 1>decision by the court, but they won't be silenced.

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<v Speaker 6>It's just inconceivable that people who are trying to stop

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<v Speaker 6>the murder of children, families of people in Palestine should

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<v Speaker 6>not be able to freely protest what is going on.

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<v Speaker 3>And they represent sort of opportunistic push from the New

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<v Speaker 3>Southist governments to stop protests, particularly protests against the genocide

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<v Speaker 3>in Palestan.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven am today

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<v Speaker 1>President of the New South Wales Council for Civil Liberties,

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<v Speaker 1>Timothy Roberts on whether the right to protest is under

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<v Speaker 1>threat and what this means for the rest of the country.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, February ten. Tim, could you explain what this

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<v Speaker 1>court case was about and your reaction to the ruling.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, the court case was about the Men's government using

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<v Speaker 5>another set of powers that had had on its books,

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<v Speaker 5>essentially some rules around special events and the ability of

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<v Speaker 5>the police to use powers to move on crowds of

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<v Speaker 5>people and to disperse crowds with respect to those events.

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<v Speaker 5>And there was a question from the Palestine Action Group

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<v Speaker 5>in particular as to whether or not this was a

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<v Speaker 5>valid use of that legislation. And that power, and ultimately

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<v Speaker 5>the judge decided it was.

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<v Speaker 1>And what else did the judge have to say about it?

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<v Speaker 4>Well?

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<v Speaker 5>Nothing, Basically, the judge made the decision without reasons. It's

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<v Speaker 5>common for them to provide it later for scrutiny, and

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<v Speaker 5>I think it was the option court to get them

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<v Speaker 5>out as quickly as possible given the impact they had

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<v Speaker 5>on the event and the protests themselves.

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<v Speaker 4>But really it wasn't something that was ventilated at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim have we ever seen these types of powers given

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<v Speaker 1>to the police before, all these types of major event

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<v Speaker 1>laws used in this way to restrict a protest.

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<v Speaker 4>Not in this context.

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<v Speaker 5>This is unusual where these powers are used as big

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<v Speaker 5>events where there's needed a large police presence and there's

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<v Speaker 5>issues of crowds and stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>So you can think about big sporting events and the like.

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<v Speaker 4>So using in this context is new. And the concern

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<v Speaker 4>therefore is.

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<v Speaker 5>That the police will be able to draw on this

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<v Speaker 5>power in the future going forward and use it to

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<v Speaker 5>suppress and disperse crowds in protests.

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<v Speaker 4>And so the court has made a decision that many

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<v Speaker 4>might not agree with.

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<v Speaker 5>What is unequivocal is that we have a legislator, a

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<v Speaker 5>government that has been passing laws and giving police by

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<v Speaker 5>too much power to control these events and to restrict

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<v Speaker 5>interfere with our protests. So when it comes to a

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<v Speaker 5>decision we don't agree with, that's based on laws that

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<v Speaker 5>are on the books.

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<v Speaker 4>If you don't agree with that, that's the question, then

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<v Speaker 4>you need to take to.

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<v Speaker 5>Your local member of Parliament and something in money to

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<v Speaker 5>take to the ballot box next time if you don't

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<v Speaker 5>agree with what's.

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<v Speaker 1>Happened coming up? What does this all mean for freedom

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<v Speaker 1>of expression? Tim? We've seen wide restrictions on protests in

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<v Speaker 1>New South Wales since the Bondai attack. What do these

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<v Speaker 1>laws actually do?

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<v Speaker 5>So, the laws that were introduced after the Pondeye attack

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<v Speaker 5>empowered the Police Commissioner to make a declaration that particular

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<v Speaker 5>areas are designated to be assembly free essentially, so that

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<v Speaker 5>is to say, there's a prohibition against seeking authorization to

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<v Speaker 5>have an assembly. Very broad powers, and I'm being particularly

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<v Speaker 5>vague about what area means because they are as agus

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<v Speaker 5>that in the laws and we saw over the period

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<v Speaker 5>after Bondie and when the laws were passed the police

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<v Speaker 5>do just that declare large ways of Sydney to be

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<v Speaker 5>free from authorized protest and then restricting that depending on

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<v Speaker 5>the particular circumstances that were evolving as to what protests

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<v Speaker 5>they would allow not allowed to be authorized. It's a

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<v Speaker 5>really really concerning future or development that's changed with these laws.

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<v Speaker 5>Is the involvement of the police commissioner now in these

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<v Speaker 5>decisions about what protests can and can't be authorized.

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<v Speaker 7>Is it the role of the police to step between

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<v Speaker 7>the animosity and part of the population, and are currently

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<v Speaker 7>you know, to make declaration about people's so political views

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<v Speaker 7>about that lead.

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<v Speaker 4>No, my view is purely on community safety.

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<v Speaker 8>I need to balance up the level of animosity about

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<v Speaker 8>his visit with.

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<v Speaker 4>The need for community safety.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what we've done again.

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<v Speaker 5>So where before there was this broad recognition that we

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<v Speaker 5>all had that right, an unequivocal right to protest and

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<v Speaker 5>then also seek authorization of protest, now in these events,

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<v Speaker 5>the police commissioner says quite broadly, no one can. And

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<v Speaker 5>so while you know, what happened in Bondai was obviously

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<v Speaker 5>the beginning of this particular law. You saw it impact

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<v Speaker 5>communities related to Venezuela, communities related to Iran, other international events,

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<v Speaker 5>other circumstances. Invasion Day was a big one those communities

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<v Speaker 5>were also impacted by these laws, so it was really

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<v Speaker 5>quite a stark example of a law affecting one group,

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<v Speaker 5>or passed with the intention to protect one group, impacting

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<v Speaker 5>as law.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim The state government says that it's new protest laws,

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<v Speaker 1>a short term that they don't formally ban or protest.

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<v Speaker 1>They say they're trying to reduce tension in the community

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<v Speaker 1>around the Hertzeg.

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<v Speaker 8>Visit, balancing the rights of protest alongside the understandable responsibility

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<v Speaker 8>of the New South Wales government and the police to

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<v Speaker 8>protect a visiting head of state as well as mourners

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<v Speaker 8>as well as protesters and regular Sydney siders who are

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<v Speaker 8>going about their job on a Monday afternoon. We're trying

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<v Speaker 8>to get that balance right.

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<v Speaker 1>How convincing is that argument to you and what could

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<v Speaker 1>be the long term impact of the crackdown.

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<v Speaker 5>I think the long term impact of the crackdown is

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<v Speaker 5>that we have a community that changes its understanding of

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<v Speaker 5>what its rights are. You know, it started with an

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<v Speaker 5>unequivocal right to assembly and political communication. It's one of

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<v Speaker 5>the few rights that are protecting our constitution. But it's

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<v Speaker 5>a right that we only really have if we use it.

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<v Speaker 4>And know we have it.

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<v Speaker 5>And the concern is that as a community that we

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<v Speaker 5>change our understanding we live our rights. That's the start

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<v Speaker 5>of it. But I don't think that is a particularly

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<v Speaker 5>convincing argument at all. I think it's one of those

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<v Speaker 5>ones that is used with things like social cohesion and

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<v Speaker 5>the like. You know, I keep keep bringing this to

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<v Speaker 5>the idea that you know, yeah, sure, if an angry

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<v Speaker 5>dad coming home shats at a family for to be

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<v Speaker 5>quiet because they're annoying him, sure the thing that's frustrated,

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<v Speaker 5>the issue goes away. But it's not peace, it's not cohesion,

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<v Speaker 5>it's not safe. If we want to be in a

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<v Speaker 5>safe community, we have to have ideas be contested and

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<v Speaker 5>we have to do it in public spaces. And that's

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<v Speaker 5>what assembly and political communication is. So we have laws

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<v Speaker 5>that put in the police hands the ability to control that.

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<v Speaker 5>We've got a real problem because we'll see some groups

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<v Speaker 5>get allowed to assemble and others not, and others sort

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<v Speaker 5>of be permitted and rules change for some.

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<v Speaker 4>That's the division.

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<v Speaker 5>That's the division is when some voices are listened to

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<v Speaker 5>and not others. And I truly believe the animosity in

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<v Speaker 5>the environment now, the tension the stress that has come

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<v Speaker 5>about the course of the intervention of the government in

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<v Speaker 5>trying to silence protest and intervene. So it's actively doing

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<v Speaker 5>the opposite of what they're saying it can do.

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<v Speaker 4>And as this time passes.

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<v Speaker 5>And we heal as a community, we've got to be

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<v Speaker 5>really worried then about what happens to our right to

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<v Speaker 5>assemble around issues like climate change or your workers' rights,

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<v Speaker 5>or you know, some other circumstance we want to assemble

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<v Speaker 5>about the actions of the men's government.

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<v Speaker 4>We now have an environment where those rights have been a.

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<v Speaker 5>Road and we might not be able to avail ourselves

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<v Speaker 5>all of them as readily, and that's the worry of Utimately,

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<v Speaker 5>it's about keeping our government to account and letting them

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<v Speaker 5>know what our views are, and we're not getting close to.

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<v Speaker 1>That goal now. Separately, we have a number of activist groups.

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<v Speaker 1>They've filed another Supreme Court challenge against these broader restrictions

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<v Speaker 1>that were brought in after Bondai. What is that case about.

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<v Speaker 4>It's about whether or not again the new laws are valid.

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<v Speaker 5>So every time there's a constitutional challenge, if you will,

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<v Speaker 5>to laws like this, you're balancing the question about whether

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<v Speaker 5>or not there.

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<v Speaker 4>Was a purpose in the one sense, a valid purpose

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<v Speaker 4>for them, and.

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<v Speaker 5>Whether or not because they are an infringement on these

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<v Speaker 5>key rights to our democracy. So whether or not that

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<v Speaker 5>burden on that particular right in New South Wales has

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<v Speaker 5>been overly done and the groups that are challenging the

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<v Speaker 5>laws are saying that the balance isn't right and there's

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<v Speaker 5>an impermissible burden on our right to communicate with each

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<v Speaker 5>other because of them, and the hope from these groups

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<v Speaker 5>is that as that the laws will be wound back

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<v Speaker 5>as result.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim we're seeing these New South Wales restrictions in the

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<v Speaker 1>middle of a wider debate about cracking down on protests

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<v Speaker 1>all over the country. Queensland is set to introduce the

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<v Speaker 1>first hate speech laws, banning two pro Palestinian slogans. What

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<v Speaker 1>does all of this say about how Australia is trying

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<v Speaker 1>to balance that idea of social cohesion with freedom of expression.

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<v Speaker 5>I think it says that we have a real failing

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<v Speaker 5>of political leadership in our country. Quite frankly, we have

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<v Speaker 5>a community in distress, we have pain. We've had decades

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<v Speaker 5>of understanding that to have reconciliation, to have cohesion, we

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<v Speaker 5>need to have truth telling and speak in exchange, and

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<v Speaker 5>yet we have leadership that is troubled by difficult times

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<v Speaker 5>is choosing to use a regressive approach to that so

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<v Speaker 5>as opposed of allowing truth telling, allowing disputes to happen.

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<v Speaker 5>So if we have governments and leadership that have this

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<v Speaker 5>view of our democracy where it's okay to regressively approach

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<v Speaker 5>our ability to tell the truth to each other, it's

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<v Speaker 5>a failing of political leadership. My part of the community

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<v Speaker 5>is to understand and educate themselves about their rights. There's

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<v Speaker 5>lots of ways they can look for more information about

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<v Speaker 5>their rights, because if they did, I think would be

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<v Speaker 5>more front of mine about what's happening and why this

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<v Speaker 5>approach is being taken. It is interesting that the federal

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<v Speaker 5>government and the New South Wales government who have taken

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<v Speaker 5>the lead in this regressive approach are both states and

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<v Speaker 5>governments that do not have a Human Rights Act in

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<v Speaker 5>this country, do not have human rights front and center

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<v Speaker 5>of political public decisions, while yes, some of.

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<v Speaker 4>The other states that have followed do. I think it's

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<v Speaker 4>telling that.

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<v Speaker 5>In those communities where it's not part of our public discourse,

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<v Speaker 5>our front of mine understanding of our rights, that those

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<v Speaker 5>rights have been eroded first, so I think it's time

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<v Speaker 5>for us to get better equated with our rights and

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<v Speaker 5>understanding about how our democracy works.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim, thanks for joining us.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, the Australian man behind New Zealand's

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<v Speaker 1>deadliest mass shooting, which saw fifty one Muslim worshipers killed,

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<v Speaker 1>is in court attempting to have his guilty please thrown out.

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<v Speaker 1>Brenton Tarrant claims he was not in a fit state

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<v Speaker 1>to plead guilty to the terrorism murder and attempted murder

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<v Speaker 1>chargers in twenty nineteen. He's testified that he felt forced

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<v Speaker 1>to admit the crimes because of the harsh prison conditions

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<v Speaker 1>and to Ozzie. Super Bowl superstar Michael Dixon is celebrating

0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.400
<v Speaker 1>after being labeled the real MVP in the Seattle Seahawks

0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.400
<v Speaker 1>twenty nine to thirteen win over the Patriots. Dixon played

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<v Speaker 1>a starring role in the victory. He's just the second

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<v Speaker 1>Australian to start and win a Super Bowl. I'm Nicole Johnston.

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<v Speaker 1>This is seven am catchulator.

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<v Speaker 2>You have un