Speaker 1: I got to act and welcome to another installment of
Speaker 1: the year project. It's Harbs. Yeah, who else would it be? Hey,
Speaker 1: you know what, today, I'm super excited and I don't
Speaker 1: always say that, but I'm quite excited because I've known
Speaker 1: this man for quite a long time and he's apart
Speaker 1: from being an ordained minister, he's a very very very
Speaker 1: gifted artist. He's a very gifted creative and we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about I don't know where we're going to go,
Speaker 1: but I was thinking the other day about this. I
Speaker 1: was thinking, I don't know why, but my algorithm gets
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff, everything from motorbikes to bloody politics,
Speaker 1: to religion and god stuff and pro and anti and
Speaker 1: I thought, why don't I We've never really done I've
Speaker 1: got I think because of my background, I'll get to
Speaker 1: you in a moment. Rev. Sorry, I'm just my long
Speaker 1: winded But because of my very churchy some might say
Speaker 1: religious Jesus, I'm quite reticent and hesitant to open the
Speaker 1: door because I can hear the eye rolling happening from
Speaker 1: where I sit, and I still, you know, there's I
Speaker 1: think I'm a person who has faith and has doubts
Speaker 1: and who has confusion and who has certainty and lack
Speaker 1: of certainty and all of that, And I just thought,
Speaker 1: I was thinking, is God relevant in twenty twenty five?
Speaker 1: And what is God? And who is God? And so
Speaker 1: who better to chat to than a man of God
Speaker 1: who's going to clear everything up? So if you've got
Speaker 1: any confusion, you'll have no confusion in about forty five minutes.
Speaker 1: Good a, Paul, how are you? Wow? Oie?
Speaker 2: That is a big introduction and a really high mark
Speaker 2: for you to sit at the front. But Harp's very
Speaker 2: good to be here. Thanks for your thought, thanks for
Speaker 2: your thinking and then taking action on that. And I
Speaker 2: would say that all those things that you've just mentioned
Speaker 2: about yourself, in terms of a person of faith and
Speaker 2: a person doubt and a person of confidence and a
Speaker 2: person of lack of assurance and reassurance and a person
Speaker 2: on a journey, all of those things that you described
Speaker 2: about yourself, I would put my hand up and say
Speaker 2: that that describes me too at various times. So I
Speaker 2: think we're one and the same.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Like I grew up and
Speaker 1: I don't want to bore everyone, but I grew up
Speaker 1: in a Catholic I mean, my mum. I don't know
Speaker 1: her or the Pope, but I tell you what, pretty
Speaker 1: side by side in terms of who's the most Catholic Mary,
Speaker 1: she's pretty good at it. And she's still gonna Mass
Speaker 1: every week at eighty five. She's still and this is
Speaker 1: I'm not even being funny. People she still likes. Well,
Speaker 1: they don't even light candles now. They have these things apparently.
Speaker 1: Mom tells me they're like electric where you pay whatever
Speaker 1: and you and it's the same. I don't know the
Speaker 1: old days. She used to light candles for me like
Speaker 1: a world champion candlelighter. She prays for me all the time,
Speaker 1: and you know, to a range of saints, sometimes God,
Speaker 1: sometimes Mother Mary, sometimes a range of saints who all
Speaker 1: apparently have different I don't know, vocations or different reasons
Speaker 1: to be prayed to. But yeah, and then I was
Speaker 1: I went into I came out of there, and I
Speaker 1: was in the I guess, the spiritual, theological, philosophical wilderness
Speaker 1: for a while. And then I met some people who
Speaker 1: hassled me to go to this church. And I say hassled,
Speaker 1: but in a loving way hassled. I was running a gym.
Speaker 1: I was nineteen twenty these young guys who owned motorbikes.
Speaker 1: I had motorbikes and they were like Bogans that believed
Speaker 1: in God. I'm like, this is a curious mixture.
Speaker 3: And I ended up going there and that one off
Speaker 3: visit I intended to go once. That ended up being
Speaker 3: a four or five year rabbit hole of theological adventure
Speaker 3: for me. And you know, so I've been in and
Speaker 3: out of church my whole life. At the moment, I'm
Speaker 3: out of church and I'm you know, there's no recommendations today.
Speaker 3: By the way, this is where not Paul and I
Speaker 3: are not trying to steer anyone into anything. We're just
Speaker 3: having a chat. But so you're a.
Speaker 1: Rev, you're a school Do we call you a school chaplain?
Speaker 2: What do we call Yeah? So my role currently as
Speaker 2: I am a school chaplain and I work in an
Speaker 2: independent school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. And I've
Speaker 2: been in this role as part of this community for
Speaker 2: about fifteen sixteen years, and so in that time, I've
Speaker 2: built connection, I've built rapport, I've built trust. Prior to
Speaker 2: my starting here in this school, I had been a
Speaker 2: chaplain in previous A couple of other educational situations. And
Speaker 2: so probably my career, if you like, in chaplaincy has
Speaker 2: been just over twenty years as a chaplain and prior
Speaker 2: to that or as part of that, in education. So
Speaker 2: I've been in education as a teacher, qualified teacher for
Speaker 2: thirty years. I'm ordained as a Baptis minister, and that's
Speaker 2: been sort OF's been just over ten years, and I'm
Speaker 2: still learning, still growing, still discovering along the way, and
Speaker 2: there's still plenty more to discover.
Speaker 1: Are you still Are you still learning and unlearning?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things that I'm doing
Speaker 2: at the moment at school is we have a subject,
Speaker 2: if you like, a subject called World Religions. And one
Speaker 2: of my greatest thrills is when there are students in
Speaker 2: class who are from a variety of backgrounds and we
Speaker 2: celebrate that. We talk about story. We acknowledge that it's
Speaker 2: not well. I believe it's not necessarily right and wrong.
Speaker 2: There'll be people who will disagree with me, but I
Speaker 2: pitch to them it's not right and wrong. It's just
Speaker 2: our stories are different, our experience, our background, our family makeup.
Speaker 2: You know. For example, we talk about rituals every time
Speaker 2: you walk in your own house, you practice certain rituals.
Speaker 2: And I did a survey just in class yesterday. I said,
Speaker 2: for example, when you get home, some of you get
Speaker 2: to the front door, some of you enter your home
Speaker 2: by the back door. Some of you take your shoes
Speaker 2: off straight away. Others don't take their shoes off. It's
Speaker 2: okay to have shoes inside. It's not right or wrong,
Speaker 2: it's just becomes your norm. What your norm is, your rhythm,
Speaker 2: your routine, your story, And that's the lens that you
Speaker 2: view normal from. And in class we explore the notion
Speaker 2: that just because my normal or my experience is different
Speaker 2: to yours, doesn't mean mine's right and yours is wrong. Actually,
Speaker 2: let's find out a little bit about each other's story
Speaker 2: and see where the connections are. Where you know where
Speaker 2: the similarities are. But equally, let's celebrate and recognize the
Speaker 2: differences as well.
Speaker 1: Wow, you're a bit of a unicorn in the Christian space,
Speaker 1: because I mean, the thing is that most most religions
Speaker 1: essentially believe that they've got it right, don't they. It's
Speaker 1: not like most most religions are not gone. Look this
Speaker 1: is what we think, but we could be wrong. Like
Speaker 1: nobody's saying that, but for you to be able to
Speaker 1: say and that, I think that's why I've always been
Speaker 1: drawn to you. Like you and I haven't spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time together, but we've spent time together through
Speaker 1: the various things that I do, where you're often at events,
Speaker 1: and you've helped us out with your your sketch what
Speaker 1: do we call it, sketch art, Yes, sketch note, sketch noting,
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about later. But yeah, I think because
Speaker 1: it sounds funny, but because you're not trying to shove anything,
Speaker 1: like you clearly walk your talk. Can you live your
Speaker 1: values and your religion, but you're not trying to shove
Speaker 1: it down anyone's throat. But how does that go down?
Speaker 1: When like you are in another environment with somebody who's
Speaker 1: theologically rigid, they're like, no, if they don't do this,
Speaker 1: and here are the scriptures, Paul, you know, lest the
Speaker 1: man be born again, he cannot enter the king for
Speaker 1: God so loved them that every of the shouldn't. And
Speaker 1: if you're you know, it's like, no, this is it?
Speaker 1: How do you go with that? When people are like
Speaker 1: arbitraryan say no, these are the criteria. They do not
Speaker 1: meet the criteria. We meet the criteria. And by the way,
Speaker 1: this happens in a myriad of religions and theological kind
Speaker 1: of paradigms, not just Christianity. How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question, and you're quite right. I
Speaker 2: do absolutely have interactions with people who are so fixated
Speaker 2: and so set on their belief and I'm also fixated
Speaker 2: on my belief. I'm very confident in what I believe,
Speaker 2: but the way that that lives out, or the way
Speaker 2: I live out my belief is different. And I suppose
Speaker 2: what I endeavor to share with them is that the
Speaker 2: idea of my work is mostly with young people. My
Speaker 2: work is in those formative years. I work in a
Speaker 2: school that we've got students in ELC we call it
Speaker 2: so three and four year olds right through to eighteen
Speaker 2: nineteen year olds at year twelve, and at any point
Speaker 2: along the way, there's the potential for them to be
Speaker 2: curious and to be exploring and wondering. If from a
Speaker 2: lectern or from a pulpit, or from a position of authority,
Speaker 2: if I'm dictating and forcing and really very very black
Speaker 2: and white, then I believe that I am going to
Speaker 2: make those kids run further and further and further away
Speaker 2: from the exploration. Because here am I, and I think
Speaker 2: I'm fairly in touch. I think my own children remind
Speaker 2: me that I'm not. But I'm fairly in touch with
Speaker 2: where young people are at. If I as an adult,
Speaker 2: just because I'm an adult, if I try and tell
Speaker 2: than what they should believe, then they're going to work
Speaker 2: very very hard to realize or look for, search for
Speaker 2: every piece of evidence that they can to say, well, clearly,
Speaker 2: you don't know what you're talking about, old man. I
Speaker 2: want to be on the journey. And so for those
Speaker 2: theological even pastors and colleagues you know, who are working
Speaker 2: in a different context, and there are many who surround
Speaker 2: themselves with people of the faith, people who support their
Speaker 2: view people who listen to and you know, they can
Speaker 2: quote Verse in scripture and all those things that you
Speaker 2: just mentioned before. They just continue to support that same
Speaker 2: thinking and mindset and block Whereas and you know, I'm
Speaker 2: troublably needing to be careful about not dissing what they're thinking.
Speaker 2: But I suspect that contact with the real world, if
Speaker 2: you like, in the school system, the learning system, the
Speaker 2: education system, that we're on a journey of exploration and discovery.
Speaker 2: Is different to sitting in a church on a Sunday
Speaker 2: morning and singing some hymns and preaching from the book.
Speaker 2: And I do that too, and that's good in that context,
Speaker 2: but for me, it's more of a journey of self
Speaker 2: discovery and exploration, not This is the way you must
Speaker 2: get on board. Otherwise you know you're going to somewhere
Speaker 2: you don't want to end up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I love that. That's how you think.
Speaker 1: And I think you know whether or not pick twenty religions, right,
Speaker 1: pick you know, it could be a political group, it
Speaker 1: could be a sporting group. It could be you know,
Speaker 1: in my world, a food group, carnivores or people who fast,
Speaker 1: or vegetarians or like we all most of us inhabit
Speaker 1: a group. And so in a way most not all,
Speaker 1: but I think most of us are in the middle
Speaker 1: of an ideological echo chamber. Right and well, this is
Speaker 1: the best way to eat, This is the best way
Speaker 1: to connect with God. This is the best way to
Speaker 1: get in shape. This is the best way to get
Speaker 1: the country running well is to vote for this party.
Speaker 1: This is the best way to make money. This is
Speaker 1: the best way to know whatever. But the problem is,
Speaker 1: one of the problems is when you unequivocally absolutely think
Speaker 1: you're right when you don't have data or evidence. You
Speaker 1: have faith, which is not evidence. Faith is not knowledge.
Speaker 1: They are different things. Doesn't mean you, you know, like
Speaker 1: I believe in things that I can't prove. So I
Speaker 1: have to say, look, I simultaneously believe this or think this,
Speaker 1: but I could be wrong. Now, most people I'm not
Speaker 1: saying I'm great for doing this, but most people don't
Speaker 1: want to do that. Most people don't want to say, look,
Speaker 1: this is really what I believe, but I could be
Speaker 1: wrong because their identity he is intertwined with their belief
Speaker 1: and the thought of me being wrong. And by the way,
Speaker 1: my religion believes X. And there's four thousand religions, twelve
Speaker 1: major religions, give or take. You know, we believe this,
Speaker 1: and which means we believe that nearly everyone else is wrong.
Speaker 1: And for me, that's like a really it's an impractical, unrealistic,
Speaker 1: arrogant And I was that. I was exactly that. I
Speaker 1: absolutely thought that what I believed was unequivocally the truth.
Speaker 1: I never thought for a moment, oh, this is just
Speaker 1: my truth this is just what I believe. And by
Speaker 1: the way, I believe this because this is how been
Speaker 1: taught and told and trained and programmed. If I was
Speaker 1: Craig who grew up in India and Mum and Dad
Speaker 1: were another religion, and or I grew up in another environment,
Speaker 1: be that cultural, sociological, geographical. If I grew up in
Speaker 1: a different mindset and a different culture and a different
Speaker 1: family with different beliefs and values, like you were talking
Speaker 1: about coming home shoes on, shoes off, front door, back door,
Speaker 1: I might never have even gone to a church in
Speaker 1: my life, but nonetheless I'd be the same guy, but
Speaker 1: a different version of me.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely, Your experiences and often our family influence our
Speaker 2: thoughts because they influence our experiences and the modeling that
Speaker 2: we get from our parents largely, you know. And another
Speaker 2: example is if you grow up and let's say you
Speaker 2: go out to visit the neighbors or there's a family
Speaker 2: friend and as a family you go over. If whenever
Speaker 2: you go and visit somebody, your family would take, for example,
Speaker 2: a bottle of wine and a bunch of flowers or
Speaker 2: something to contribute to the meal that you might be sharing.
Speaker 2: If that's the norm, then you as a young person,
Speaker 2: you grow up, you know, as a kid, and then
Speaker 2: a young person, you watch that when you go out
Speaker 2: when you're older, you will have a natural inclination. It
Speaker 2: will almost feel like you're not prepared unless you show
Speaker 2: up with a bottle of wine and a bunch of
Speaker 2: flowers or something to contribute to the meal or because
Speaker 2: it's what becomes your norm, it's what you're used to,
Speaker 2: and then that just becomes you know, you adopt that.
Speaker 2: We adopt those things largely through our experience as a
Speaker 2: young person growing up. And so what happens in the
Speaker 2: home and the influence of parents is enormous. And then
Speaker 2: the adults that our young people witness and watch and observe. Yes,
Speaker 2: it's one thing to be teaching them. And you know,
Speaker 2: teaching has changed and evolved, and as it should. The
Speaker 2: I guess, the style of interaction and our awareness of
Speaker 2: different learning styles and all of that is continually continuously growing.
Speaker 2: And we as educators are learning. But the influence of
Speaker 2: us and us living through that which we teach and
Speaker 2: that which we In my case, if you like that
Speaker 2: which I preach, I have to live it. If I'm
Speaker 2: not living it, the kids see through that so quick,
Speaker 2: it's not authentic. I get up on stage or I'm
Speaker 2: in the you know, in our chapel, and if I'm
Speaker 2: not living it, they know it. They see it, and
Speaker 2: the stories, the suggestion, the influence, the perspective that I'm
Speaker 2: trying to share is just worth nothing. And so I've
Speaker 2: got to live it each and every day. And that
Speaker 2: helps me, I guess, in terms of how do I
Speaker 2: keep showing up in it as strong one who strives
Speaker 2: to be their best and always doing my best. It's
Speaker 2: because I'm very aware that people are watching. There's an
Speaker 2: added It's not a pressure because I don't feel and
Speaker 2: it's a bit like your story, and you don't have
Speaker 2: to make a decision about whether you're going to drink
Speaker 2: alcohol or smoke or because you've just never never done that.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a it's a non negotiable for me.
Speaker 2: Not swearing, for example, is really really important to me
Speaker 2: because it's a way that I don't want to get
Speaker 2: in the way. I don't want to have staff, my
Speaker 2: colleagues or students if they hear me swearing, then that
Speaker 2: puts a seed of doubt in my teaching and my
Speaker 2: preaching and my example that I'm trying to set, and
Speaker 2: if I give them cause for doubt, then my message,
Speaker 2: what I stand for, what I'm trying to share, diminishes very,
Speaker 2: very very quickly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I love that. I love that, and it's
Speaker 1: so true. It's like in a different way, but when
Speaker 1: I'm if I'm at a restaurant and I'm eating dinner
Speaker 1: and someone comes in that knows me or knows of me,
Speaker 1: Not that I'm anybody particularly famous, but I often get
Speaker 1: many times I've had over the years, people go, oh,
Speaker 1: what's Craig Harper got on his plate? And they just
Speaker 1: want to see what I'm eeting to see if I'm
Speaker 1: full of crap or not? Right, Oh, you know, and
Speaker 1: if per chance it's not something that meets their expectation,
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. It is funny because yeah, and
Speaker 1: I mean I always say, if you want to know someone,
Speaker 1: pay a little bit of attention to what they say
Speaker 1: and a lot of attention to what they do, because
Speaker 1: what we do will tell people who we are. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can say all the things you want to say,
Speaker 1: but ultimately who you are has reflected in your behavior,
Speaker 1: your choices, your lifestyle, how you treat people over time, because.
Speaker 2: It's easy to say stuff absolutely, and I certainly don't
Speaker 2: want to come across to you or to anybody who's listening.
Speaker 2: I don't want to come across to say I always
Speaker 2: get it right, you know. And you know you've got
Speaker 2: your version of this is what it means to tell
Speaker 2: people and share with people, and you know, from even
Speaker 2: if you go from a fitness perspective, an exercise specifictive,
Speaker 2: a diet perspective, and you know, most of us who
Speaker 2: are listening have heard you tell the story of you
Speaker 2: were living out a certain behavior even though you were
Speaker 2: teaching something different. Me too, I am human, and I
Speaker 2: make mistakes, and I you know, while I strive to
Speaker 2: support what I say through my actions, I don't always
Speaker 2: get it right, you know. And that's the fall of
Speaker 2: human kind, isn't it. You know that where none of
Speaker 2: us are perfect and I'm certainly, and lots of the
Speaker 2: best stories are helping the students to recognize that, you
Speaker 2: know that we get it wrong too, And the best
Speaker 2: thing that we can do as adults, let alone what
Speaker 2: faith perspective we're coming from, or whether we're a teacher
Speaker 2: or not, but if we can share with young people,
Speaker 2: whether they are five and six and seven year olds
Speaker 2: or whether they are thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year olds. If
Speaker 2: we can be honest and say, actually, for example, I
Speaker 2: don't know the answer to that. That's a really good question.
Speaker 2: Let's find out together. Or I've made a mistake. I
Speaker 2: got that wrong. And you might be talking about something
Speaker 2: that happened when I was a teenager, or you might
Speaker 2: be talking about something that happened last week, or even
Speaker 2: within a class in a classroom, there are times when
Speaker 2: I get it wrong at the beginning of the class.
Speaker 2: And if I can publicly acknowledge, or sometimes privately acknowledged
Speaker 2: to that student and say, mate, I'm sorry, I thought
Speaker 2: this and this or I assumed that and that, if
Speaker 2: I can go and reconnect and re engage with that
Speaker 2: young person, then that saves a lot of trauma potential
Speaker 2: trauma for that young person because we as teachers, even
Speaker 2: though society doesn't This is a generalization, but society doesn't
Speaker 2: value the art and craft of teaching as much as
Speaker 2: I believe. I'm biased, but I believe it should in
Speaker 2: terms of our role as educators to create and shape
Speaker 2: the future. Society doesn't regard that highly enough. But young people,
Speaker 2: our connection with young people, we have to be authentic. Yes,
Speaker 2: we've got some knowledge that we need to impart and
Speaker 2: share and expose them to. But if we're not showing
Speaker 2: up or entic and real and human and full of
Speaker 2: all MSS mistakes and full of all of the problems
Speaker 2: and issues and challenges and the humanness of us, if
Speaker 2: we're not willing to share that, then I just think
Speaker 2: we're in the wrong game.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things that has been something I've
Speaker 1: thought about a lot over the years was when I
Speaker 1: was younger and in church, so Mass very traditional. By
Speaker 1: the way, I'm not hating on anything everyone, I'm just
Speaker 1: sharing my experience. But my experience of Mass Catholic church,
Speaker 1: it was somewhere between boring, terrifying, uninspiring. This is just
Speaker 1: my version and pretty much me and all of my friends,
Speaker 1: we didn't want to be there. We just had to
Speaker 1: be there, and we tolerated it. We didn't celebrate it.
Speaker 1: Right now, maybe we were the problem. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but that's just my experience. And then when I went
Speaker 1: on and I went and did other more tambourine banging,
Speaker 1: you know, happy clapping style of church, like a lot
Speaker 1: of I would say, most of what came out of
Speaker 1: my time, you know, doing a deep dive into God,
Speaker 1: let's just say that most of it was good. But
Speaker 1: what I did notice was, and I noticed broadly, is
Speaker 1: that in the place where you would think there's the
Speaker 1: most unity, there's often the most division and the most
Speaker 1: disconnection and the most like not a whole lot of
Speaker 1: you know, like the theory of the theology wasn't always
Speaker 1: outwardly practiced, and like for me, for me, unless there's
Speaker 1: not love at this epi center of whatever the practice,
Speaker 1: the theology, the philosophy. And by love I really mean love,
Speaker 1: I mean kindness, I mean I mean loving serving if
Speaker 1: that's not at the center in a real way, not
Speaker 1: just in a theoretical way. And I look at the
Speaker 1: like most theological texts speak of the importance of love
Speaker 1: and kindness, etc. Yet there's so much hate, so much
Speaker 1: not love. How do you You don't have an answer
Speaker 1: for that, But what do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Paul, I'm disappointed to say that I've witnessed it. I
Speaker 2: agree with you. I even was having a conversation with
Speaker 2: my mum last night, and she was unpacking a version
Speaker 2: of an event that she saw with be in a
Speaker 2: church community that she's part of, and the treatment of
Speaker 2: people within that church where they received everything but love
Speaker 2: that you would hope that, you know, And that's what
Speaker 2: we're kind of we were chatting about going We ought
Speaker 2: to be able to expect better from an organization, whichever
Speaker 2: faith group that you might be belonged to, or which
Speaker 2: whichever place of worship you might be attending. And you'll
Speaker 2: I agree with you that fundamentally, love and interaction and
Speaker 2: care and concern for people is at the core of
Speaker 2: most religion. We should be able to walk into any
Speaker 2: of those places and feel it and receive it and
Speaker 2: and not not the opposite. And unfortunately, the very institution
Speaker 2: that professes to love and to care and to cherish
Speaker 2: and all those things, unfortunately is way too often the
Speaker 2: perpetrator of malpractice. And you know all of the negatives,
Speaker 2: and you know, and there are things in place now
Speaker 2: to try and prevent that. But and therefore, people's experience
Speaker 2: of those places, and in my context I'm going to
Speaker 2: talk about church. People's experience of the church and the
Speaker 2: humor within the church has a direct impact on their
Speaker 2: association to God and faith and and understandably. You know,
Speaker 2: if I'm if I'm the chaplain and I've got a reputation,
Speaker 2: you know, the kids here they call me Rev. They
Speaker 2: understand that, you know, there's some connection between me and
Speaker 2: God and faith and and kind of that that that
Speaker 2: bigger than me concept. If I if I'm nasty, horrible
Speaker 2: and terrible, then their understanding of God, who I'm a
Speaker 2: representative of deteriorates. It's me, it's horrible. So I have
Speaker 2: a responsibility. If I genuinely believe in faith and hope
Speaker 2: and love, and the greatest of these is love, then
Speaker 2: I've got to be living that out every day, like
Speaker 2: we were saying a little bit before. But unfortunately people
Speaker 2: don't always get that as good as we would hope.
Speaker 1: I think, I think one of the problems with any organization.
Speaker 1: And remember, on a level a church, it's just a
Speaker 1: group of people in a building. I mean, it's more
Speaker 1: than that, but at times it's a bunch of humans
Speaker 1: in a room, right. And it's the same in science
Speaker 1: when people go to me, oh, but science tells us
Speaker 1: and I'm like, hang on, do you know who created
Speaker 1: that research, you know who ran that research, you know
Speaker 1: who interpreted that research? You know who funded that research.
Speaker 1: It's like science itself is not good or bad. It's
Speaker 1: just that humans are involved and so science can be brilliant.
Speaker 1: And it's like some people could go to a church,
Speaker 1: as I did. When I went to a different church,
Speaker 1: I went, oh, my gosh, I've never had anything like
Speaker 1: this in my life. Hey, everyone, notice how I'm not
Speaker 1: swearing today. Look at me. And I made a commitment
Speaker 1: to Paul. But yeah, I remember thinking, I mean, I've
Speaker 1: never experienced like this, anything like this, and everyone was,
Speaker 1: you know, nice and kind and interested and like the
Speaker 1: was different than music was amazing. But that was just
Speaker 1: my individual experience. But I'm sure some people go for
Speaker 1: the first time ever to a church and then they're scarred.
Speaker 1: They'll never set foot in another church in their life.
Speaker 1: So it's not is church good or bad? Is God
Speaker 1: real or not real? Or is Buddhism this, or is
Speaker 1: you know, Islam that, or It's like a lot of
Speaker 1: it is really about what was your experience when you
Speaker 1: interacted with that person or that religion or in that
Speaker 1: mosque or that synagogue or that church, Like what happened,
Speaker 1: you know, And because people, you know, if someone has
Speaker 1: a bad experience in a certain environment, for better or worse,
Speaker 1: they're probably not going back.
Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. I think those personal experiences and then the
Speaker 2: debriefing of that, if we're willing to debrief it, you know,
Speaker 2: with our family or friends or other people who might
Speaker 2: have invited us to come along and experiencing it. I
Speaker 2: think we make our next decision based on how it
Speaker 2: felt when we went into that space, into that environment,
Speaker 2: you know, just to you know, you mentioned before, is
Speaker 2: you know, is the question if you like, is God relevant?
Speaker 2: One of my one of my wonderings is if if
Speaker 2: we look at the challenge of living today and again
Speaker 2: the challenge you know, you and me, two white fellas
Speaker 2: in a very affluent country. You know, we really don't
Speaker 2: have a lot to complain about. Orbit individuals are going
Speaker 2: to have their circumstance and their story, and you know,
Speaker 2: and rightly so, and we would listen to that and
Speaker 2: absorb that and affirm that in some ways as well.
Speaker 3: And but.
Speaker 2: Breakdown in society, the breakdown, you know, the divorce rates, violence,
Speaker 2: domestic violence, theft, youth gangs, all of that. You know,
Speaker 2: there's something going wrong. There's a breakdown in our society.
Speaker 2: And I wonder whether when we're missing something, when we're
Speaker 2: lacking something, we may not be aware what we're missing
Speaker 2: until we put it back in. Follow me a bit
Speaker 2: further here. Back in about twenty eleven, the state government
Speaker 2: here in Victoria and other governments followed, pushed religious education
Speaker 2: out of state schools. You know, we used to. I
Speaker 2: grew up having a volunteer come in and you know,
Speaker 2: a little dotty old lady, and she would come in
Speaker 2: and she would share some Bible stories, and it was
Speaker 2: a half hour once a week. That no longer happens
Speaker 2: in schools, in state schools. And I wonder whether there's
Speaker 2: a correlation between a lack of God, if you like,
Speaker 2: in our young people's experience and therefore the values, the principles,
Speaker 2: And I might even go so faris to say the
Speaker 2: Christian values are not being heard and understood through the stories.
Speaker 2: I wonder if that has a flow on effect to
Speaker 2: how you know that then young people there now, young adults,
Speaker 2: the becoming parents, the adults of today, the decision makers,
Speaker 2: the leaders, the community influences of today, are missing that
Speaker 2: part of the Christian values because people in droves are
Speaker 2: not going to places of worship. These days. Sunday used
Speaker 2: to be for most of our childhood until about you know,
Speaker 2: I looked it up before. It was around nine ninety
Speaker 2: ninety one. Sunday trading became something that we were just exploring,
Speaker 2: just experiencing. Prior to that, everything shut on Sundays. There
Speaker 2: was one day, and depending on your tradition, you might
Speaker 2: call it a sabbath, a day of rest and an
Speaker 2: opportunity to connect with family. My experience, not everybody's, but
Speaker 2: my experience was church became a place, a meeting place
Speaker 2: for community, and I got loved, I got cared for,
Speaker 2: I got taught, I got engaged. Sometimes it was boring, absolutely,
Speaker 2: but I met with a group of people and it
Speaker 2: was the village. It was my parents' generation cared about me.
Speaker 2: My grandparents' generation who not my grandparents, but people of
Speaker 2: that generation within the church community. They looked back for me,
Speaker 2: they cared for me, they were interested in me, They
Speaker 2: taught me, they cared for me. And so my experience
Speaker 2: of growing up in church has absolutely impacted my values.
Speaker 2: Young people for a generation and more have not been
Speaker 2: going to church because families, while they liked the idea,
Speaker 2: then not doing it. Schools while they might somewhere along
Speaker 2: the lines, like the idea, the church is not allowed
Speaker 2: in there anymore, and so they're not doing it, so
Speaker 2: kids aren'tetting it that way. I would suggest to you,
Speaker 2: perhaps your honor, that there is an and comes down
Speaker 2: to privilege. I understand that. But the spike that we're
Speaker 2: seeing in independent schools right now is enormous, and I
Speaker 2: think that it's because families are concerned. They're concerned that
Speaker 2: they're young people, their children not getting the education, including
Speaker 2: the values in the local primary school that an independent
Speaker 2: school and very often aligned with a church a faith community,
Speaker 2: whether by aim or by action, sometimes both hopefully both.
Speaker 2: Families like the idea, they're not getting it from their
Speaker 2: religious organization, so they're going to their school, and their
Speaker 2: school is becoming the one stop shop. School is where
Speaker 2: we develop our values. School is developed where we develop
Speaker 2: our mind. School is where we develop our sporting prowess
Speaker 2: and our physicality, and our interactions and social networks. So
Speaker 2: much is dependent on schools nowadays because that has become
Speaker 2: the new hub of community. Where As it used to
Speaker 2: be a church it I'm a sports club for a while,
Speaker 2: and now with the rise of independent schools and the
Speaker 2: growth of independent schools. Unfortunately, that leads to the next impact,
Speaker 2: and this we don't yet fully understand, and that is
Speaker 2: families are stretched to the limit in order to get
Speaker 2: their children to get to an independent school, paying through
Speaker 2: the roof to get to an independent school, and the
Speaker 2: stress that that's putting on relationships and family and marriage
Speaker 2: and time together as a family unit. It's work, work, work, work.
Speaker 2: We've got to earn the money because we want to
Speaker 2: do the right thing by our kids. And it's just
Speaker 2: this cycle is we just don't yet know where it ends.
Speaker 2: And I'm concerned for the impact of the lack of
Speaker 2: faith that our communities, our societies, our people. They're searching
Speaker 2: for it, they're seeking it, but they're not finding it
Speaker 2: in their local church or synagogue or mosque or temple.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, that was a lot. That was a lot.
Speaker 1: I feel like, how do I say this? I feel
Speaker 1: like people that are, for example, like I don't want
Speaker 1: to talk too much about the other religions because I
Speaker 1: feel unqualified. So all of you people of other faiths,
Speaker 1: I'm not discounting you at all. I just don't want
Speaker 1: to speak on your behalf right, because I grew up
Speaker 1: in the for better or worse. I grew up in
Speaker 1: the Christian paradigm. Right, I feel like Christianity's got a
Speaker 1: bit of a pr problem at the moment. Right. I
Speaker 1: feel like people that are Chris are like, yeah, we're awesome,
Speaker 1: come and be on our team. Jesus is Ace. But
Speaker 1: from the outside looking in, people who are not not everyone,
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of them are like I
Speaker 1: Nelly swore, well, thank goodness, Christians are fully you know what,
Speaker 1: like hypocrites, Like they go to church and then they
Speaker 1: do this and that, and I don't blame them because
Speaker 1: it happens, you know. And the amount of preachers and
Speaker 1: priests and people who are coming out and who have
Speaker 1: been busted for this and that, and they've done all
Speaker 1: this a moral, ungodly horrible And I'm like, well, no,
Speaker 1: I don't blame these people, you know. But the problem
Speaker 1: is that we associate, like I said before, that we go, oh,
Speaker 1: that person did that. Therefore all Christians are this, Well
Speaker 1: no it doesn't. That's actually you know, like I've got
Speaker 1: quite a lot of friends who are you know, I've
Speaker 1: got friends that are Muslims. I've got friends that are Buddhists,
Speaker 1: I've got friends that are Christians. I've got friends that
Speaker 1: are atheists. I love them all pretty much the same,
Speaker 1: And all I care about is are they good humans?
Speaker 1: And are they kind and nice? And let's not debate
Speaker 1: about which is right or which is wrong, but on
Speaker 1: the most base level of human interaction. For me, I
Speaker 1: don't you know. For me, a Christian who isn't for
Speaker 1: the most part walking their talk is like somebody who
Speaker 1: wears a tracksuit that never trains and says I'm an
Speaker 1: athlete because I wear a tracksuit. No, you're not. You're
Speaker 1: just wearing a tracksuit. Like to be an athlete, you
Speaker 1: need to do all of the work that is required
Speaker 1: to be so.
Speaker 3: Too.
Speaker 1: If you're going to walk around and profess that you
Speaker 1: are a certain kind of person, I don't believe you
Speaker 1: until I see you. You know, I'm ironically I don't
Speaker 1: trust people much like I doesn't mean I distrust them necessarily,
Speaker 1: But if you're going to tell me what you are,
Speaker 1: I'm going to hold my judgment a little bit till
Speaker 1: I see you be that. You know, because I've been
Speaker 1: around so much BS for so long, and I've been
Speaker 1: in I've been in churches where I've met some of
Speaker 1: the most amazing human beings ever. And I've also met
Speaker 1: some of the biggest hypocrites I've ever met anywhere. But
Speaker 1: that's not to say that one or the other is
Speaker 1: because of God or because of church. That's just how
Speaker 1: those people are, you know, And I think you can
Speaker 1: put them in any group and they're essentially going to
Speaker 1: be that version of themselves in any group anyway.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: But why do you think that? Why do you think
Speaker 1: that church attendants and probably others, you know, other religions
Speaker 1: in Australia anyway, has not all but some fallen through
Speaker 1: the floor. Like my mum and dad, you know, they
Speaker 1: go to massa Sunday morning, and you know, it used
Speaker 1: to be I don't know where they go three four
Speaker 1: hundred people on a Sunday. Now it's like thirty older people.
Speaker 1: It's like thirty people that are the average age eighty
Speaker 1: eighty five. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I think the statistics would tell us that
Speaker 2: there are certain churches, let's call them, even denominations, that
Speaker 2: are growing, that you have some spike, that do have
Speaker 2: some credibility. And I think it's those churches who understand
Speaker 2: what love looks like, whereas those who are sticking true
Speaker 2: to the doctrinal right and wrongs and the rituals and
Speaker 2: the which are great for those people who grew up
Speaker 2: in it, they're just not very attractive to people who
Speaker 2: who haven't been brought up in it. In terms of
Speaker 2: a newcomer coming in and you know, the churches have
Speaker 2: these rules, and unless you are in the in crowd,
Speaker 2: you therefore don't know the rules. And therefore you come
Speaker 2: in and you go, I'm not sure how to behave here.
Speaker 2: I don't know how this works, and there's nobody there
Speaker 2: necessarily welcoming you in to show you how to do this.
Speaker 2: You know, how do I open this book? Or what
Speaker 2: do I do with this candle? Do I stand?
Speaker 1: Do I sit?
Speaker 2: Do you know? Am I meant to close my eyes
Speaker 2: or open my eyes? Like there's the user experience as
Speaker 2: a newcomer is really really tricky in some of the
Speaker 2: more traditional parishes and churches and experiences. So I think, look,
Speaker 2: and we don't want to just heap everything onto our
Speaker 2: experience of COVID. But when we weren't allowed to meet,
Speaker 2: that changed a lot of organizations, a lot of systems,
Speaker 2: a lot of workplaces, a lot of clubs and groups
Speaker 2: and and we across the board. As a generalization, probably
Speaker 2: haven't recovered came much much easier to stay at home,
Speaker 2: you know, a little bit like work. Actually, you can
Speaker 2: flick on the washing, you can do a few bits
Speaker 2: and pieces in between. Doesn't mean that you're less engaged
Speaker 2: or that you're less productive. From a church experience, what
Speaker 2: you can do is you can watch online, you can
Speaker 2: tune in online, you can you know, effectively absorb it.
Speaker 2: But what you miss sing out on by not showing
Speaker 2: up is you're missing out on what we call fellowship connection,
Speaker 2: the cup of tea afterwards that you know, how did
Speaker 2: your meeting with such and such or the doctor you
Speaker 2: were going to the doctor, like all those personal connections. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: the church used to be the hub of that, and
Speaker 2: it was regular and it was very normal, and it
Speaker 2: was part of a community. Nowadays, the church also has
Speaker 2: gone online, like much of our social interactions, like you know,
Speaker 2: like for example, you know, you and I were doing
Speaker 2: a reasonable job of connecting and being even though we're
Speaker 2: not in the same room. You would recall how much
Speaker 2: different it is to record a conversation like this if
Speaker 2: we were in the same room. There's a different energy
Speaker 2: there's a different buzz. There's something different when you actually
Speaker 2: get to connect and you know, shake hands, give each
Speaker 2: other a hug, kind of you feel the energy which
Speaker 2: you just don't get in this online space. And our
Speaker 2: young people and us as old folks as well. So
Speaker 2: much of our interaction now is on a screen, and
Speaker 2: it's missing something. And as I was saying before, it's
Speaker 2: not until you work out you'll try and put something
Speaker 2: back in, like connection, like real human connection in the
Speaker 2: same room where you can push shoulders and nudge into
Speaker 2: each other. While that's missing. Until you put it back,
Speaker 2: you don't realize that it's missing. But I'm telling you
Speaker 2: we're missing it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I love all of that. You're
Speaker 1: probably aware that I'm running a thing at the moment
Speaker 1: which by the time people hear this, it'll be done.
Speaker 1: It's just called typ the U Project Kickstart seven day Kickstart,
Speaker 1: and I get or the U Project my website Craigcarpa
Speaker 1: dot net. We get around one hundred emails a day
Speaker 1: and I just can't answer them right and neither can
Speaker 1: Moless this, so we have an auto reply. But I'm
Speaker 1: constantly people constantly want to answers to questions. Some of
Speaker 1: them I can answer, some of them I can't. I
Speaker 1: mean literally I don't have the answer, and people want
Speaker 1: help and people want you know, and I put out
Speaker 1: an episode like this every day of the year, seven
Speaker 1: days a week, for however many years we're heading. We're
Speaker 1: past eight ten hundred episodes the other day. But it's funny,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about a week and a half ago, mate,
Speaker 1: about what can I actually do that's practical, like other
Speaker 1: than just get you know this. What we're doing now
Speaker 1: is good. It's talking, it's theory, but there's no action
Speaker 1: attached to this unless somebody decides to and that's cool
Speaker 1: as well. And of course, you know, so this is
Speaker 1: a theoretical kind of forum where you and I share
Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas and stories and beliefs and concepts, and
Speaker 1: then people go, yeah, that was rubbish or that was good,
Speaker 1: or hey, I might give I might look into that,
Speaker 1: or I might give this ago whatever. But last week
Speaker 1: so I decided I'm going to actually create a program
Speaker 1: that people can do. They can volunteer. There's going to
Speaker 1: be five different areas, you know, cognitive and person development
Speaker 1: and cardio and strength, and one another that slips my
Speaker 1: mind anyway, and different activities in each thing so people
Speaker 1: can just go, I'm going to do this thing with
Speaker 1: Craig's group, and I put it on the New Project
Speaker 1: Facebook page and every day I'm recording a video. We've
Speaker 1: got hundreds of people doing it. I'm writing a new
Speaker 1: program every day, which takes me over an hour to
Speaker 1: write because I'm trying to factor in all of the
Speaker 1: variables around different humans and different bodies and brains and needs.
Speaker 1: And it's honestly, it's a lot of work, but it's cool,
Speaker 1: and I'm charging and I'm not trying to say I'm
Speaker 1: a good bloke because I'm not that, but I'm charging zero.
Speaker 1: And there's nothing at the end that's not like, oh
Speaker 1: you do this, and now I'm selling you that. There's
Speaker 1: no cell right, and the amount of people who just
Speaker 1: feel loved and valued because I'm just doing something for nothing,
Speaker 1: and of course I do other things which are not
Speaker 1: for nothing, but consciously going and I reckon. I've had
Speaker 1: twenty thirty more. I've had at least fifty messages and
Speaker 1: emails from people going thank you, thank you, this is awesome,
Speaker 1: this is what I needed. And I'm like, my privilege
Speaker 1: You're welcome. I'm so glad you're doing it. Keep going, you,
Speaker 1: You're amazing. And then a bunch of people going, I'm
Speaker 1: really glad you're doing it, But why are you doing it?
Speaker 1: This is a lot of work. I go because I
Speaker 1: just like, I just want people to get that sometimes
Speaker 1: someone will just do something for you. It's not about
Speaker 1: my brand. It's not about money. Like there's a lot
Speaker 1: I could build my brand without doing this, or could
Speaker 1: I could take the time that I'm an energy and
Speaker 1: invest in something that's more financially rewarding and all of that.
Speaker 1: But I love that where you go do something for
Speaker 1: somebody that where there's no strategy in it, Like there's
Speaker 1: no strategy, you can't get anything back, and this is
Speaker 1: just you going ah. And I know you do this
Speaker 1: all the time time because I know your work and
Speaker 1: I know you and what I'm talking about right now
Speaker 1: you do every day. But then extrapolating on that kind
Speaker 1: of biblical principle and in many other religions, it's a
Speaker 1: principle of kindness and love and service and unconditional you know,
Speaker 1: care and all of that. But then on top of
Speaker 1: that is this other personal benefit that is when you
Speaker 1: actually have a focus and a purpose bigger than you.
Speaker 1: And I know I've said this many times, but I
Speaker 1: will always say it because we can be very self
Speaker 1: centered and self focused and selfish, but it doesn't work
Speaker 1: like there's a time where you've got to focus on
Speaker 1: you in terms of you know, getting your head out
Speaker 1: of your out of the dirt and you know, getting
Speaker 1: your stuff together and you know, looking after your health.
Speaker 1: I'm making that I'm not talking about that. I'm talking
Speaker 1: about that propensity. We have to be selfish, but when
Speaker 1: you open that door is like I'm just going to
Speaker 1: do something for someone and yeah, I'm going to do
Speaker 1: this other thing over here where I make a few bucks.
Speaker 1: But it's like it taps into a bunch of principles
Speaker 1: that just seem to work on a range of levels.
Speaker 2: Very much so. And I did. My wife came into
Speaker 2: the room and I was balancing on one foot today
Speaker 2: and I'm better than average. You know, you gave us
Speaker 2: some statistics on how far or how long we should
Speaker 2: be able to balance on one foot, and I was
Speaker 2: doing okay. I thought balance was pretty good.
Speaker 3: For me.
Speaker 2: And again, I thrive on this and I love to
Speaker 2: be able to share it and because I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: in a fortunate position like you, you have a particular audience,
Speaker 2: a group of people who hear you, listen to you,
Speaker 2: want to hear what you think and want to hear
Speaker 2: what you say. Therefore, you're in a position of responsibility.
Speaker 2: You have a responsibility I believe, to not only show
Speaker 2: up for them, but also to lead them. And you're
Speaker 2: doing something to get them into action. Your motivation is
Speaker 2: you want to help absolutely. Their reason for getting involved
Speaker 2: might be, well, let me try this, or let me
Speaker 2: be part of a community that's doing this. I like
Speaker 2: the idea of being able to say, you know done
Speaker 2: at the end of my session. We in our school,
Speaker 2: and lots and lots of schools, whether they're state schools,
Speaker 2: independent schools, all the schools love the idea of helping
Speaker 2: our kids get into action. And by action, I mean
Speaker 2: and we call it community service or community links where
Speaker 2: we and I'm kind of involved in it, where I
Speaker 2: love getting our young people, whether they're our three and
Speaker 2: four year olds at their level, our fourteen, fifteen or
Speaker 2: eighteen nineteen year olds, roll up this leaves, get some
Speaker 2: dirt under your fingernails, and go out and help somebody.
Speaker 2: So we you know, for example, we not this weekend.
Speaker 2: Next weekend we're doing a walk and we will have
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty of our community go out and
Speaker 2: do this walk. It's a fundraising walk for the local
Speaker 2: Monash Children's Hospital and shout out to them. We'll walk
Speaker 2: and we'll support. We do a massive We have about
Speaker 2: five hundred and fifty of our community get out on
Speaker 2: Good Friday shaking teams for the Royal Children's Hospital Good
Speaker 2: Friday Appeal. We get kids shaving their head for the
Speaker 2: Leukemia Foundation, we get kids giving up stuff for the
Speaker 2: forty our FAMN and World Vision. The more we can
Speaker 2: help our kids to realize their situation of privilege, to
Speaker 2: get into the muck, get into the weeds, get into
Speaker 2: that and go. You know what, there are people who
Speaker 2: are way, way, way more in need than you. What
Speaker 2: can you do with your time, with your effort, with
Speaker 2: your skill, with your expertise, or with your money, go
Speaker 2: and make a positive impact in other people? And I
Speaker 2: love the thrill of watching these kids then go out
Speaker 2: and do it and they feel good about it because
Speaker 2: there is kind of a it's that funny loop of
Speaker 2: selfish doing it for others. But you actually fill your
Speaker 2: own cup while you're caring for others. It's a win win.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, yeah, all right. Last question I think this
Speaker 1: is this is my curly quiquestion. Let's talk about the Bible. Now.
Speaker 1: Do you believe in a literal translation the historical accuracy
Speaker 1: of the Bible? Do you like, did a bloke really
Speaker 1: part the Red Sea? Did a bloke really walk on water?
Speaker 1: Did a bloke really turn water into wine or a
Speaker 1: bit of or are some of that stories to share
Speaker 1: insights and messages? Where do you stand? I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to catch you out by the way, because I don't
Speaker 1: even know where I I don't know where I stand.
Speaker 1: I used to think everything was absolutely literal. Now I
Speaker 1: probably don't. But what about you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's a good question, It's a really good question.
Speaker 2: I'm at the level of I think some of it
Speaker 2: is story for learning, some of it is parable and
Speaker 2: there's a message behind why somebody might have told that story.
Speaker 2: I believe that some of the words are the words
Speaker 2: of God or the spoken word of Jesus in teaching
Speaker 2: and preaching and sharing stories through parables, and there was
Speaker 2: a purpose for those I also believe that some of
Speaker 2: the stuff is a historical account and some of the
Speaker 2: stuff actually happened. I do believe in miracles, and I
Speaker 2: believe in the miracles that the Bible speaks of because
Speaker 2: they're still happening today. Then we're not parting the waters
Speaker 2: of the Port Phillip Bay, but people are being healed
Speaker 2: through the point.
Speaker 1: I tell you if you could, if you could do that,
Speaker 1: like if you could arrange. I don't want to put
Speaker 1: any pressure on, but you are a man of faith.
Speaker 1: If you could part the waters of Port Philip Bay,
Speaker 1: I'd get every news outlet there, and I reckon you
Speaker 1: might really boost the numbers at church at least for
Speaker 1: a weekend.
Speaker 2: Or two, so there's some interest.
Speaker 1: I want you to get a little righteous prayer going on, Paul.
Speaker 1: I want you to get on your knees and seek
Speaker 1: the big Guy and yeah, hey mate, tell everyone or
Speaker 1: just quickly we didn't get there, let's get there now
Speaker 1: for a minute or two. Apart from this, apart from
Speaker 1: all this God stuff, you are an incredible sketcher, drawer illustrator.
Speaker 1: I call you like a cartoonist, which is not really
Speaker 1: what you do, but you kind of I don't know
Speaker 1: what do you call it? Sketch noting. Where did that
Speaker 1: come from? Where did that start? Tell us a bit
Speaker 1: about it. And when I say he's good, everyone, I'm
Speaker 1: not just saying it because he's on that like his
Speaker 1: stuff is world class. Now I'll tell you when I
Speaker 1: do a live event like You Project. Now, oh hey, everyone,
Speaker 1: pencil this in your diary, just lightly because we're not positive,
Speaker 1: but it looks like June one. We're doing a typ
Speaker 1: event June one, all day and a bunch of other
Speaker 1: guests from the You Project, and Pastor Paul might even
Speaker 1: be off to the side of the stage sketching. Who knows,
Speaker 1: but he comes along often and draws the speakers as
Speaker 1: they're speaking. I don't know how you do that, so
Speaker 1: you actually sketch the speakers speaking and also at the
Speaker 1: same time almost do like a highlight reel in written
Speaker 1: words of their message. I've got no idea how you
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 2: That's the guts of what it is. So it's sketch notes,
Speaker 2: the idea of sketch notes, and really quickly, the history
Speaker 2: of it for me is I did spend a lot
Speaker 2: of time in learning, both learning to be a teacher
Speaker 2: and learning in church, and I would take notes handwritten notes,
Speaker 2: and I would just feel books of pages and pages
Speaker 2: of notes, thinking that I've got to capture it all.
Speaker 2: I've got to capture all this information and write it down,
Speaker 2: and then I'll go back and i'll read it and
Speaker 2: i'll study it, and i'll learn it, and i'll know it,
Speaker 2: and it'll all be good. Very very rarely would I
Speaker 2: go back and read it and study it and know it.
Speaker 2: I came across this concept called, and it's called different things,
Speaker 2: graphic facilitation sketch notes, the idea of combining sketching or
Speaker 2: drawing some visuals with written notes. And for me, when
Speaker 2: I started to play with it and practice at what
Speaker 2: I found was I could go back to a page
Speaker 2: of sketch notes which has got some visuals and got
Speaker 2: some hand lettering in it, and it's enjoyable for me
Speaker 2: to look back at. I like going back and looking
Speaker 2: at my sketch notes, and those little visual representations of
Speaker 2: a main message, a core message. They are the prompt
Speaker 2: to help me remember the story that was being told,
Speaker 2: or the principle that was being shared, or the message
Speaker 2: that was being delivered. Through the visual it takes me
Speaker 2: right back there and I can hear the story happening again,
Speaker 2: and so the visual for me, I'm a visual thinker,
Speaker 2: a visual learner, and so the visuals helped me. So
Speaker 2: now I create them, I listen. It has improved my
Speaker 2: listening and lots of my practice in terms of learning
Speaker 2: how to do it was sitting in church and visually
Speaker 2: capturing through sketch notes, the message that the preacher might
Speaker 2: have been delivering, sharing and then at the end of
Speaker 2: the message, I would share that on you know, I'm
Speaker 2: young enough and old enough to be able to share
Speaker 2: that to the church Facebook page and then share that
Speaker 2: with people, and people would walk away with a visual
Speaker 2: representation of what the preacher just spoke. And I find
Speaker 2: it's good for me and I like sharing it with others.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're incredible at it. You know what I
Speaker 1: just did while you were talking. I just took a photo.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering this is probably stretching the relationship. We'll see
Speaker 1: what if I'll send you this and then I wonder
Speaker 1: if you could do a thing that we could use
Speaker 1: in the promo of this podcast. I wonder we.
Speaker 2: Should Definitely we'll explore that. And yeah, I do enjoy
Speaker 2: it and it helps people and part of my I
Speaker 2: guess my mission is to help people on their journey.
Speaker 2: And I enjoy like messages from you, teaching from you.
Speaker 2: I think it helps people. And one way to hear
Speaker 2: it is on a podcast or go to a conference listen,
Speaker 2: you know, go to a workshop and it might be
Speaker 2: an online workshop over a series of Tuesday nights or
Speaker 2: whatever it is for me another way, because I'm because
Speaker 2: I'm a learner and an educator, I know that not
Speaker 2: everybody likes to hear it audibly sometimes visually as a
Speaker 2: powerful way for them to resonate with the material, And
Speaker 2: so I want to try and help people be exposed
Speaker 2: to those visual reminders and prompts and lessons that you
Speaker 2: might teach orally I can capture them visually and then
Speaker 2: together they become a powerful combination.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can't even explain everyone how good it is,
Speaker 1: Like I would have gone when I first met you,
Speaker 1: and I think the first time you went I do
Speaker 1: a bit of this, Can I come along and do that?
Speaker 1: And I went, yeah, all right, And then I went, oh,
Speaker 1: my goodness, this is ridiculous, Like I can't explain how
Speaker 1: good they are.
Speaker 2: And can I just say that is exactly what you
Speaker 2: did because we had some relationship in a different sporting
Speaker 2: experience years before. And I turned up at one of
Speaker 2: your conferences. I had my haad, a paper and a
Speaker 2: couple of pins, and I said, just by the way,
Speaker 2: I'm going to sit up the back there and I'm
Speaker 2: going to sketch note. And you go, what like, yeah, whatever,
Speaker 2: do whatever. And then I told you at the end
Speaker 2: of the conference, and yes, you were suitably impressed. And
Speaker 2: I appreciate that and have enjoyed being involved in that
Speaker 2: over the journey.
Speaker 1: Wow, I was. I've got another question, then we'll go.
Speaker 1: I've always wondered a little bit why the Man of
Speaker 1: God listens to the Sinful Podcast and the Backslin and Heathen,
Speaker 1: He who's got one foot in the darkness? Why do
Speaker 1: you listen to this show? And I know you listen
Speaker 1: to it, you know regularly, like you're a I don't
Speaker 1: know if you're a fan, but you definitely listen. But
Speaker 1: most pastors would never listen to this show. Most most
Speaker 1: religious men or women would not listen to this show.
Speaker 1: In fact, if you are a person of if you're
Speaker 1: a religious minister or similar, and you listen to this show,
Speaker 1: send me a message because I think Paul's the only one.
Speaker 2: It's a good question, and I must admit I've You've
Speaker 2: tried not to. I've tried to share with a few
Speaker 2: other people and they haven't got very far into one
Speaker 2: episode and they go, can't I can't cope, and I
Speaker 2: normally warn them he's Captain mcsweary, you know, like just
Speaker 2: you've got to get past that. Look. I guess I
Speaker 2: resonate with some of your messages. I think it's powerful.
Speaker 2: I think you, also, like me, are about trying to
Speaker 2: help people live their best and to find their best.
Speaker 2: And from my perspective, you know, I come from a
Speaker 2: perspective that says, you know, there's a creation, there's a
Speaker 2: fullness of life, there's an essential gifting and talent that
Speaker 2: we have, and I would want to try and help
Speaker 2: people find that talent and then use that talent. I think,
Speaker 2: in different words, you're trying to do the same thing.
Speaker 2: You want people to dig deep inside of themselves and
Speaker 2: find the best that they are, and then find a
Speaker 2: way to share that with others, to deliver that with others,
Speaker 2: make an impact with others. You want people to live
Speaker 2: their best life, and so do I. We go about
Speaker 2: it differently. We use different stories and different language and
Speaker 2: different mediums, and we've got a different audience, but we're
Speaker 2: actually both on the same game. We're trying to help
Speaker 2: other people be their best.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to be more like you, mate. Where
Speaker 1: can people contact you, connect with you? How does that happen?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I do have from a sketch noting perspective,
Speaker 2: I do have a website, you know, and there's some
Speaker 2: of my work on there. It's called hand Drawn Today,
Speaker 2: So www dot hand drawn today dot com. Some of
Speaker 2: my sketch notes are there, and I think there's a
Speaker 2: couple of the U Project conference sketch notes in there
Speaker 2: as well. You can have a look at but you
Speaker 2: can reach out through there. I do hang around on Facebook,
Speaker 2: just as all joy and I share a message every
Speaker 2: now and then, and some drawings on there as well.
Speaker 2: I've got an email address. Do you want an email address?
Speaker 2: Your phone number? Two email address? Probably the best one
Speaker 2: again is hand Drawn Today at gmail dot com. And
Speaker 2: if you contact Craig, he'll probably give you my phone
Speaker 2: number and we can chat about that too.
Speaker 1: I probably won't give you his fine number, but email him. Hey, mate,
Speaker 1: we'll say goodbye. Fair but that was great. I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed that. Thanks for being on the You project. Nice debut.
Speaker 1: I think we're going to get you back, and you
Speaker 1: come at the right price, so boom boom be a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Thank you,