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Speaker 1: It's the Twelve Days of Big Business. Hello and happy holidays.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of the Twelve Days of Big Business,

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Speaker 1: where every day until Christmas Eve you get a brand

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Speaker 1: new episode and a chance to win big Each episode

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Speaker 1: has a secret code word hidden inside, and when you

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Speaker 1: enter it on our website, you'll go into the draw

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Speaker 1: to win our Big Business Christmas Bundle, packed with goodies

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Speaker 1: from some of the brands you've heard directly from on

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Speaker 1: Big Business. We're talking Lush, Sunday Body, the Breakout, Hack

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Speaker 1: Booth Haircare, Russ Energy, Funday Natural Suites are Live Body.

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Speaker 2: And of course Fate.

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Speaker 1: Collect every code word and stack your chances. Head to

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Speaker 1: the Nova Wind page online to enter, or click the

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Speaker 1: link in the show notes. Now, let's dive into today's

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Speaker 1: episode and listen out for that code word. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about something that I have actually avoided talking about forever,

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Speaker 1: especially on social media, but I feel like this podcast

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Speaker 1: is a safe space where I can talk about this.

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Speaker 1: And the reason why I haven't wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: this on social media, in particular Instagram and TikTok is

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Speaker 1: because I don't want to make more people aware of

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Speaker 1: the fact that this is a thing because I don't

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Speaker 1: want more people to scam businesses. But I feel like

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Speaker 1: I can trust everyone that listens to Big Business. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, this is another episode in my twelve

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Speaker 1: Days of Big Business.

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Speaker 2: In case you didn't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm currently coming out with twelve episodes back to back

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Speaker 1: every day in the lead up to Christmas. But today

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about chargebacks. This is something if

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Speaker 1: you have a online store, whether it be a Shopify

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Speaker 1: store or any other store for that matter, because it's

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Speaker 1: got to do with banks and customers. This is something

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Speaker 1: that you probably dealt with at one stage in your

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Speaker 1: business journey. That's something that we deal with every single

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Speaker 1: month at FATE and it's actually harrowing.

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Speaker 2: And you know what, the.

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Speaker 1: Kind of people that do chargebacks, which I'm going to

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Speaker 1: explain what chargebacks are, by the way, and tell you

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Speaker 1: all about it, which I've really avoided doing, but I

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Speaker 1: got this DM and I've got to come out with

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Speaker 1: twelve episodes, so this is a perfect opportunity. I think

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Speaker 1: people that do chargebacks are a bunch of snowflakes. A

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Speaker 1: bunch of snowflakes. I think there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: other things too, but they're snowflakes. They're also just genuinely terrible,

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Speaker 1: terrible people. But let's get onto talking about it, so

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Speaker 1: let me read out this DM. This is from Sarah

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Speaker 1: Hi brit I've been seeing a lot of small businesses

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Speaker 1: hit with chargebacks, which is so terrible that people actually

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Speaker 1: do this when they've received the goods. Has Fate experienced

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Speaker 1: this and what do you think businesses can do to

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Speaker 1: protect them? I own an aftermarket accessories business and our

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Speaker 1: products are quite expensive. I'd hate to lose money to

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Speaker 1: shitty people if this chargeback becomes a trend. PS love

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Speaker 1: the pod and the wisdom you share. I really appreciate you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Sarah. First of all, I'm glad to hear

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Speaker 1: that you haven't dealt with a chargeback at this point

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Speaker 1: in your business journey.

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Speaker 2: Don't be surprised if you do.

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Speaker 1: We get them pretty frequently, and like you said, it's terrible,

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Speaker 1: it's absolutely devastating.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you all what it is.

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Speaker 1: And I hope none of you are terrible snowflakes, and

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Speaker 1: I hope you don't then go and do this. But basically,

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Speaker 1: what a chargeback is is it's something that a customer

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Speaker 1: does and they will do it every single time, basically

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Speaker 1: to be a complete scammer. So what they'll do is

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Speaker 1: they'll place an order with a business, any online business,

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Speaker 1: they will get their goods and then they will contact

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Speaker 1: their bank and say I never got the goods. The

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Speaker 1: bank then honors that without question. They don't have to

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Speaker 1: prove anything. They can literally just call their bank. And

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Speaker 1: this is fucking I fuck this. I've never spoken about

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Speaker 1: this because it fills me with rage, and then you

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Speaker 1: now understand why I would never want to talk about

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Speaker 1: this on social media. It's so hard because I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm a voice for a lot of small businesses

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Speaker 1: in Australia. Of course I want to be the person

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Speaker 1: to talk about this stuff, but you know, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: it would go viral and then people on TikTok would

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Speaker 1: be doing this left right and center to businesses and

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Speaker 1: it costs businesses hundreds and you know for us it's

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Speaker 1: thousands every year. But I'm like, I can talk about

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Speaker 1: it here, I guess, and something needs to be done

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Speaker 1: about it. So basically, the customer will receive the goods,

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Speaker 1: they'll call the bank and they will say I never.

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Speaker 2: Got that parcel, and the bank.

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Speaker 1: Will go no, worries, here's the money back, and then

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Speaker 1: they will go to the business owner through Shopify or

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Speaker 1: whatever platform it is and go, hey, this customer, Thomas

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Speaker 1: has done a charge back on their order. They never

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Speaker 1: got the goods, so we're deducting the money from your

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Speaker 1: account plus a twenty five dollar fee. So then not

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Speaker 1: only have you lost all the goods and most of

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Speaker 1: the time as well. I will add these scammers they

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Speaker 1: do massive orders, so this happens to us when people

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Speaker 1: have ordered eight hundred dollars worth of stuff seven hundred dollars.

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Speaker 1: I feel so like I'm annoyed that I'm telling this

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Speaker 1: on the internet because I don't want to make more

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Speaker 1: people aware of the fact that you can do this.

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Speaker 1: But I think there is going to be a crackdown

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Speaker 1: on it because this has to be illegal, right, it's

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Speaker 1: stealing from businesses. So like the customer will get the

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Speaker 1: seven hundred, eight hundred dollars back, they'll get to keep

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Speaker 1: all those goods that they definitely got, and then the

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Speaker 1: business loses the goods the seven or eight hundred dollars

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Speaker 1: or how much the order was. They get slapped with

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Speaker 1: a twenty twenty five percent, a twenty five dollar fee.

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Speaker 1: That's the shop of five fee anyway for a chargeback,

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Speaker 1: which makes no bloody sense. Why do we get charged?

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Speaker 1: And then you know you've probably paid for shipping as well,

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Speaker 1: your staff sent it out, all the wages that went

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Speaker 1: to that one order, all the shoppi five fees, like

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Speaker 1: you end up like losing so much more money than

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Speaker 1: the actual transaction and all the goods are gone now.

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Speaker 1: In Shopify, for example, you every single time can then

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Speaker 1: fight back, right and you'll provide the tracking to show

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Speaker 1: that it was delivered to their house. You contact Australia Post.

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Speaker 1: Australia Posts will give you photo evidence of the parcel

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Speaker 1: at their door or whatever. You provide all that stuff,

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Speaker 1: and you never win. You never never win. It always

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Speaker 1: comes back and it's made me so defeated over the years,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: And we'll email.

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Speaker 1: The customer to be like, hey, like, I saw you

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Speaker 1: got a charge back, but it was delivered to your house,

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Speaker 1: and the customers never reply, like they're just sorry to

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Speaker 1: say it, but they're fucking scammers. And if someone's going

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Speaker 1: to use a chargeback honestly, like there's no honest way

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Speaker 1: to do a charge back, you know, if customers haven't

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Speaker 1: received something, which happens sometimes like a parcel will go missing.

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Speaker 1: They'll contact us and then we can investigate that and

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Speaker 1: be like, yep, we can see that it wasn't delivered,

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Speaker 1: or Australia Posts will confirm with us that the parcel

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Speaker 1: went missing. But anyone who goes straight to their bank

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Speaker 1: doing a chargeback, they're doing it dishonestly. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know why the banks make it so easy for people

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Speaker 1: to do that, and the banks don't contact us like

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Speaker 1: they're too big, they don't contact us to be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this customer has done this, you just automatically get that

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Speaker 1: charge back.

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Speaker 2: Boom, money gone.

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Speaker 1: You've lost hundreds, if not thousands, And this happens pretty often,

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Speaker 1: and it's absolutely devastating, and you fight it every single time,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you provide the tracking, the photo of

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Speaker 1: the parcel delivered, this, that and the other, and you

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Speaker 1: always lose, like you have lost another charge back, and

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Speaker 1: it's fucking devastating.

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Speaker 2: So I really feel for business owners.

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Speaker 1: And it's always the small businesses that this happens too,

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Speaker 1: right like Fate obviously isn't a small business anymore, but

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Speaker 1: it's been happening to us since the day we started,

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Speaker 1: and it's fucking devastating, and I hate that it's so

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Speaker 1: easy for people to do in better news And I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is something that's just recently. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, if they're cracking down on it a bit more.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But I installed a Shopify app. Let me tell you

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Speaker 1: what it's called. It's called charge Flow. It's an app

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Speaker 1: that we've had for a while, maybe like a year,

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Speaker 1: and it's a free Shopify app, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: it shouldn't take an app to win a charge back,

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Speaker 1: you know. I wish the banks would contact these businesses

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Speaker 1: and be like, hey, this person has done a charge back.

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Speaker 1: Can you prove that they definitely didn't get their parcel?

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Speaker 1: But I just guess the banks are too big and

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Speaker 1: busy that they just give the money back to their

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Speaker 1: customer straight away, which is a whole other conversation. But

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Speaker 1: we've got this app called charge flow, and basically their

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Speaker 1: job is to help you win chargebacks, which is crazy.

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Speaker 1: But this is such a problem that there's literally an

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Speaker 1: app for it. It's a free app, and they only

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Speaker 1: take a percentage of a chargeback win if they win, right,

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Speaker 1: So it's in this app's best interest to win your

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Speaker 1: chargebacks for you. I'd love to hear from other business

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Speaker 1: owners if you've ever won a charge back yourself, just

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Speaker 1: through Shopify or your web hosts, whichever won. But for us,

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Speaker 1: every time we've done one through Shopify, we have never

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Speaker 1: ever won. And just recently we won one and not ourselves.

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Speaker 1: These charge flow people want it.

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Speaker 2: I'm in the app right now.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly how much they take. It might

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Speaker 1: be fifteen percent of the value or whatever, but to me,

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Speaker 1: like paying fifteen percent is far better than losing everything.

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Speaker 1: And they they won one, and I don't know what

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Speaker 1: they did differently this time around. I want to chat

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Speaker 1: to them a little bit more. But they won one

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Speaker 1: and we got the email to be like you want

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Speaker 1: to charge back, and I was like, wow, this is

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Speaker 1: a maze. And I was so excited because it was

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Speaker 1: like an eight hundred dollar order and the customer was

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Speaker 1: such a scammer.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you the story of what happened. She it

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Speaker 2: was her.

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Speaker 1: It's always their first time ordering as well. By the way,

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Speaker 1: if you ever get an order that seems suspicious, look

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Speaker 1: into it, and even if it means canceling the order,

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Speaker 1: before you send it out. If you're really suspicious of it,

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Speaker 1: do it. But this customer was a first time shopper

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Speaker 1: and she spent about eight hundred dollars on clothes.

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Speaker 2: That in itself is always a bit of a red flag.

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Speaker 1: Because it's just that's not normal customer behavior to discover

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Speaker 1: a brand and spend eight hundred dollars on your first order.

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Speaker 1: We got an email one morning, maybe at like eleven am,

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Speaker 1: and it was the customer raging at us, saying, I

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Speaker 1: just got my delivery notification and it's not there.

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Speaker 2: It's not there.

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Speaker 1: I'm leaving for a holiday today and I needed all

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Speaker 1: of this, Like the fact that she came at us

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Speaker 1: like so agro and she was dming us as well

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Speaker 1: at the same time, like blowing up the emails and

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Speaker 1: dms that again, it's suspicious behavior. I understand someone being

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Speaker 1: frustrated if that's actually happened, but from the get goals

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Speaker 1: like this girl is a scammer. So my customer service

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Speaker 1: team came to me and said, hey, we've got this customer.

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Speaker 2: This was just like a month ago or so.

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Speaker 1: Now, and when a parcel goes missing, if it does,

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Speaker 1: you know, we say to the customer, Hey, so sorry

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Speaker 1: about this. Let's figure this out together. What we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to do is we're gonna have to lodge a

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Speaker 1: like a case with Australia Post and there's a bit

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Speaker 1: of a process that you have to go through before

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Speaker 1: you can go right ahead and give someone that refund.

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Speaker 2: But she was going.

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Speaker 1: Refund me immediately, blah blah blah, like, no, I don't

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Speaker 1: have time for this.

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Speaker 2: I'm going on a holiday. I need my money back

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: Mind you, the tracking had said delivered an hour before

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Speaker 1: she sent that email and DM, so it was just

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Speaker 1: all real suspicious. So I was dming her as me

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Speaker 1: as the owner. She was blowing up at me like

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Speaker 1: this is so unprofessional of you as the owner, blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. And I remember saying to my team, she's

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Speaker 1: going to place chargeback.

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Speaker 2: I just knew it.

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Speaker 1: And she'd almost planted those messages in our DMS and emails.

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Speaker 1: Maybe is proof to be Like I contacted the brand

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Speaker 1: and told them it was missing, you know, lo and behold.

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Speaker 1: A few days later, boom chargeback. But this was the

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Speaker 1: one that this charge flow app won, so it took

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Speaker 1: them quite a few weeks and I think what charge

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Speaker 1: flow does is which again is so silly. I think

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Speaker 1: when you're providing your evidence to Shopify, this is just

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Speaker 1: for Shopify, because I'm with Shopify, you can only give

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Speaker 1: them like one or two bits of evidence like the

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Speaker 1: tracking and a photo maybe, But I think what charge

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Speaker 1: flow can do is they can give like ten bits

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Speaker 1: of evidence. I don't know exactly how it works, but

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Speaker 1: either way, they won us one. And I was so

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Speaker 1: excited because as soon as we got that notification, I

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Speaker 1: was like, that's that horrible customer that was blowing up

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Speaker 1: at us, And I just knew from the get go

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Speaker 1: that she was a scammer, and I just thought it

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Speaker 1: sucks shit because if she's done this to us, she

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Speaker 1: knows what she's doing, and she's absolutely done it to

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Speaker 1: other businesses and brands. And I don't know how it

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Speaker 1: works in the back end, but if her bank account

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Speaker 1: is at zero dollars, I'm sure they're going to draw

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Speaker 1: out negative seven hundred or eight hundred. And if someone's

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Speaker 1: done this to multiple businesses, they're going to be in

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Speaker 1: such serious financial strife. So trying the charge flow app

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Speaker 1: is definitely one way to give it a go. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how great it is, because they have lost

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases for us, but this is the

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Speaker 1: first one that they've won, and I'm hoping this is

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Speaker 1: like a sign that they're going in the good direction.

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Speaker 1: I've for so long, over the years, wanted to make

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Speaker 1: videos about this, and I almost want to do like

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Speaker 1: a class action because it shouldn't be that easy for

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Speaker 1: people to scam small businesses, because like, correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but is that not illegal? Is it not

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Speaker 1: illegal to order off a site, get the goods, and

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Speaker 1: then go to your bank saying yeah, I never got them,

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Speaker 1: Like that's theft, right.

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Speaker 2: That's theft. And then it's at the cost of the

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Speaker 2: small business.

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Speaker 1: And imagine if a business was way smaller than mine

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Speaker 1: and that was their one order that they got that week.

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Speaker 2: Like, you know, it's just fucking devastating.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if you can tell, but this

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Speaker 1: really like grinds my gears and I don't want chargebacks

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Speaker 1: to be a thing. And I've wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: this for so long, but I don't want it to

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Speaker 1: go viral on social media and then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden everyone knows just how easy it is to scam

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Speaker 1: small businesses. I'd hate to bring awareness to that, but

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Speaker 1: I also want to bring awareness to it because it's

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Speaker 1: so fucked. But it's one of those things that like,

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Speaker 1: there's not much you can do about it. The only

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Speaker 1: other one workaround that you could do, which would definitely help.

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Speaker 1: And we don't do this because it does annoy customers.

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Speaker 1: But you could do it by putting you must have

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Speaker 1: a signature on your parcels, because I feel like if

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Speaker 1: you've got that customer's signature on the parcel, then there's

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Speaker 1: no way that they can say that they never got it,

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Speaker 1: although I wouldn't be surprised. Still, if they've signed that,

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Speaker 1: they could literally say to the bank, I never got it.

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Speaker 1: That's not my signature, like that's my neighbor's signature or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But that is one thing that you could do. But

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Speaker 1: we do not have signature on delivery at fate. It

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Speaker 1: will always be left in a safe place or taken

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Speaker 1: to the post office if it's not like deemed to

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Speaker 1: be safe. But you know, our parcels get hidden or

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Speaker 1: put in a letter box if it'll fit or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But if you really wanted to cover yourself, you could

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Speaker 1: require a signature on delivery. That would just like piss

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Speaker 1: customers off, because there's nothing worse than when you get

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Speaker 1: that Australia Post notification like your parcel was taken. It

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Speaker 1: needs a signature, and you weren't home. I'm always like, fuck,

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Speaker 1: I just want it to be hidden, like on my

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Speaker 1: front deck or whatever. But that's definitely one way you

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Speaker 1: could cover yourself. But other than that, there's no other options.

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Speaker 1: It's really frustrating and devastating. And I'm literally getting hot

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Speaker 1: recording this because.

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Speaker 2: It gets so mad about this.

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Speaker 1: And if you're listening and you're thinking, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: do this to small businesses, don't you dare your snowflake,

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Speaker 1: because I'll.

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Speaker 2: Come after you.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know if anyone else has any experience

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Speaker 1: with this. Actually I was meant to say snowflakes before,

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Speaker 1: not snowflake. It's got an S on the end. If

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Speaker 1: anyone has an experience with chargebacks, if you have any stories,

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Speaker 1: if you've won a case, let me know DM me

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Speaker 1: on Big Business podcast on Instagram, because yeah, we won

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Speaker 1: one just the other day, but we've never won one

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Speaker 1: before that in the history of fate, and it's fucking devastating.

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Speaker 1: I hate people that do chargebacks there's no honest way

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Speaker 1: to do a chargeback.

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Speaker 2: If your parcel.

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Speaker 1: Genuinely has gone missing in Limbo, just contact the business

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Speaker 1: and they'll get to the bottom of it.

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Speaker 2: Like that's our job.

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Speaker 1: We work with Australia Post to locate missing parcels all

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Speaker 1: not all the time. But you know, if someone just

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Speaker 1: so happens to have their parcel accidentally delivered to their

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Speaker 1: next door a because they live in apartments or whatever,

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Speaker 1: like you do an investigation and O's posts will go yep,

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Speaker 1: that one definitely went missing, and then and then we

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Speaker 1: sort it out. We give the customer their refund or

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Speaker 1: their replacement items. But people that just go straight to

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Speaker 1: a chargeback.

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Speaker 2: Straight up scammers.

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Speaker 1: Hate to say it, but some of the earth kind

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Speaker 1: of people, I know that's really nasty, but like I

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Speaker 1: get it if you want to have products from a brand,

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Speaker 1: But if you're just going to do a charge back

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Speaker 1: and just get them for free, you're a fucking scammer.

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Speaker 1: Go get a job and work hard to be able

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Speaker 1: to buy the things that you so badly want, you know,

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Speaker 1: like especially from small businesses or clothing brands or people

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Speaker 1: that are genuinely just trying to run an honest and

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Speaker 1: good business, Like to just scam businesses outright is beneath

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Speaker 1: the earth. Sorry, this has been a bit of a

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Speaker 1: negative episode and it's a bit of a long one

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Speaker 1: for the twelve Days of Big Business, but I had

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Speaker 1: a lot to say. I'd love to continue this conversation.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to take it to social media, but I

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Speaker 1: don't want more people to know this and just start

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Speaker 1: scamming people. And I really hope that, like the banks

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Speaker 1: really crack down on it one day, because this is

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Speaker 1: not legal to do this, and I don't know why

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Speaker 1: people can do it, and I hope I haven't brought

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Speaker 1: this to the wrong kind of people. Please don't scan

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Speaker 1: businesses out of their product, Like, not only do they

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Speaker 1: get the money taken off them, they lose all the

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Speaker 1: goods and all the fees that we got charge for

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Speaker 1: you to put that order through our website and our

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Speaker 1: packaging materials and our staff pack and the order is

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Speaker 1: like it costs so much and it's really sad.

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Speaker 2: But hopefully this has helped. Check out that charge flow app.

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Speaker 1: And I'll let you know if I ever find out

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Speaker 1: anything more about chargebacks, because I kind of want to

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Speaker 1: become like the President of Anti Chargeback Club and become

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Speaker 1: a voice for the people if I'm being honest, So

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Speaker 1: send me three stories if you have any.

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Speaker 2: And this has been all for. Is this episode four

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Speaker 2: of twelve days a big business off five?

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Speaker 1: Who knows, but either way, I'll be back tomorrow with

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Speaker 1: something a bit more positive, I promise.