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Speaker 1: I get a team.

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Speaker 2: I'm here with my favorite scientist, my favorite researcher, doctor

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Speaker 2: Bill Sullivan, all the way across the other side of

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Speaker 2: the world in the States.

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Speaker 3: Hi, mate, how are you doing great? Meat, Good to

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Speaker 3: see you again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good to see you, buddy. We were just talking.

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Speaker 2: I was just telling you, which is probably the world

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Speaker 2: doesn't need to know this, But I have this weird

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Speaker 2: thing that happens everyone, and that is I could be

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Speaker 2: sitting at my computer like I am now, and I'm

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Speaker 2: just chipping away at stuff and just doing it, and

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Speaker 2: all things are kind of just status quo, just humming along.

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Speaker 2: But then when I have to really focus on something,

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Speaker 2: like I was saying to Bill, read an academic paper

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Speaker 2: or something that for me is cognitively challenging, where it's

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Speaker 2: extreme focus concentration, I've got to be fully present. I

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Speaker 2: get hot and I usually have to take off Often

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Speaker 2: I'll turn off the if the heat is on, even

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Speaker 2: in the middle of winter, I'll open the door to

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Speaker 2: my office, I'll take off a layer of clothing. I

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Speaker 2: think maybe a lot of people don't realize that twenty

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Speaker 2: percent of our energy expenditure is the brain built, which

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Speaker 2: is a lot of energy for a tiny little thing

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Speaker 2: sitting in the old skull.

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Speaker 3: Hey, yeah, and that's what they estimate happens with the

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Speaker 3: brain at rest, So when you're using it, it ramps

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Speaker 3: up even higher. So it's probably not surprising that your

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Speaker 3: body's getting a little overheated reading some of those papers.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, if we talk down on you and

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Speaker 3: you're you're down to your underwear, we know what you've

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Speaker 3: been doing, right, you've been reading academic papers.

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Speaker 1: Oh, look at him, he's in his boxes. Clearly he's studying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll go obviously obviously with.

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Speaker 1: That one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: It is funny though, like, so my body weight is

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Speaker 2: eighty six kilos, what's that eighty four one seventy it's

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Speaker 2: about one ninety pounds, and the brain weighs about one

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Speaker 2: point three or four, which is kind of three pounds ish.

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Speaker 2: That's a very small percentage of our body weight for

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Speaker 2: a very high percentage about energy use, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: That's wire is portionate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, if you think about it, that

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Speaker 3: is the key organ that defines who we are, and

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Speaker 3: it takes a lot of energy just to keep it

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Speaker 3: running at a basal level, you know, just couch potatoes

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Speaker 3: is still consuming twenty percent of your caloric intake. So

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Speaker 3: if you happen to use it beyond couch potato, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're going to burn some more calories, which is kind

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Speaker 3: of fun. You know, you can just sit around thinking

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Speaker 3: and that's kind of an exercise, you know, it.

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Speaker 1: Is it is.

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Speaker 2: I remember a sign outside a gym near where I

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Speaker 2: live and it said something like thinking about going to

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Speaker 2: the gym doesn't burn any calories. You've actually got to

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Speaker 2: turn up or something. And I'm like, well, technically they're wrong.

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Speaker 3: You know, technically they're wrong. But you're probably not going

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Speaker 3: to lose too much weight or increase your health parameters

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Speaker 3: in a good way just by thinking too much. So

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Speaker 3: I understand marginal game.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Hey, I want to start with something

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Speaker 2: weird today. Now I found this video. You I haven't

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Speaker 2: told you. By the way, we did know prep. I

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Speaker 2: do a little bit of prep everyone, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's solid three four minutes. But Doctor Bill and I

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Speaker 2: literally chat for about one or two minutes before we

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Speaker 2: go live, so he doesn't know this is coming. It's

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Speaker 2: not anything weird, and I don't even know how we

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Speaker 2: get away, but this is this is a video from

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Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson was talking to a lady, some health expert.

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Speaker 2: I apologize or couldn't find her name, but you'll find

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Speaker 2: it everyone if you want to. So it's Tucker Carlson

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Speaker 2: talking to this lady. I won't tell you what it's about.

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Speaker 2: It only goes for about a minute.

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Speaker 1: Mate. I want you to have a listen, and then

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Speaker 1: I want to have a chat. Is that all right

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Speaker 1: with you?

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Speaker 3: You want me to watch Tucker Carlson. You're gonna say

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Speaker 3: I want you to watch I know, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: it's not about him.

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Speaker 1: I know you're probably a fan, but not a fan.

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Speaker 1: But here we go, here we go.

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Speaker 4: Just give us the being slain condition of health in

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Speaker 4: the nastace, absolutely so. Seventy four percent of American adults

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Speaker 4: now are overweight or obese. Close to fifty percent of

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Speaker 4: children are overweight or obese. Seventy seven percent of young

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Speaker 4: adults are unfit to serve in the military because of

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Speaker 4: these issues like obesity.

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Speaker 3: Now, let's talk about diabetes.

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Speaker 4: Fifty percent full fifty percent of American adults have pre

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Speaker 4: diabetes or type two diabetes, which is a fundamental issue

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Speaker 4: in how ourselves contrasts the country Tucker have pre diabetes

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Speaker 4: or type two diabetes, and thirty percent of teens now

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Speaker 4: have pre diabetes. We have eighteen percent of teens with

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Speaker 4: fatty liver disease, a disease that used to be in

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Speaker 4: late stage alcoholics. Cancer rates are skyrocketing and the young

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Speaker 4: and the elderly. Young adult cancers are up seventy nine percent,

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Speaker 4: and this is the first year in American history We're

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Speaker 4: estimated to have over two million cases of cancer. Twenty

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Speaker 4: five percent of American women are on an antidepressant medication.

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Speaker 4: Forty percent of eighteen year olds have a mental health diagnosis.

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Speaker 4: We have the highest infant and maternal and mortality rate

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Speaker 4: in the entire developed world. Infertility is at peak rates.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know how this is not front

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Speaker 4: page news. Infertility is going up one percent per year.

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Speaker 4: Sperm counts are going down one percent per year since

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Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies. Now, the thing that people need to

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Speaker 4: understand is that all of these conditions are caused or

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Speaker 4: driven by the exact same thing, which is metabolic dysfunction.

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Speaker 2: I would imagine, I would imagine that Australia is similar,

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Speaker 2: not in terms of absolute numbers, because we have a

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Speaker 2: smaller population, but you know, percentage wise, I wouldn't think

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Speaker 2: we would be drastically different.

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Speaker 1: What did you think about that?

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Speaker 3: Those are some pretty sobering statistics, and obviously I can't

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Speaker 3: fact check all of them, but I can say that

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Speaker 3: I've heard the same trends. You know, clearly our country

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Speaker 3: and many many in the western developed world have problems

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Speaker 3: with obesity, which spiral into problems with diabet There's also

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Speaker 3: I believe what she said about fertility and sperm counts

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Speaker 3: is also true. I've read similar articles to that effect

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Speaker 3: as well, although I don't know that it's completely attributable

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Speaker 3: to metabolic dysfunction. There are many other potential explanations that

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Speaker 3: could factor into changes in fertility rates, some of which

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Speaker 3: have nothing to do with biology at all, but just

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Speaker 3: psychological trends, social trends. So but yeah, a lot of

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Speaker 3: what she's saying, those trends, at least I've heard similar statistics.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that like, we've never been more educated, we've

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Speaker 2: never had more resources, Like we've never been I was

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Speaker 2: going to say, we've never been smarter. That's not true behaviorally,

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Speaker 2: maybe we're stupid, who knows, But yeah, it seems that

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Speaker 2: despite all of our technology and all of our research

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Speaker 2: breakthroughs and everything that's happening in science, as a.

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Speaker 1: Bunch of people living on.

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Speaker 2: A planet, from a physical wellness point of view, we

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Speaker 2: seem to be going backwards, not forward.

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Speaker 3: Stock Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. And it's

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Speaker 3: like we're a victim of our own success. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the human species has been so successful around the world

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Speaker 3: in creating a lifestyle where we have easy access to

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Speaker 3: high caloric foods, which we used to struggle obtaining a

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Speaker 3: long time ago, you know, on the African savannah. So

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Speaker 3: now we have a bounty of those high calorie foods,

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Speaker 3: and our brain is wired to lust after them. Okay,

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Speaker 3: our brain is wired to crave them, and they're in abundance.

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Speaker 3: So there's a mismatch between how our brain reacts to

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Speaker 3: these foods and drives our behavior and the environ in

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Speaker 3: which we've currently in which we currently live. And I

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Speaker 3: say we're a victim of our own success, because you know,

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Speaker 3: humanity as a collective species has done a marvelous job

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Speaker 3: utilizing agriculture, domesticating animals, creating foods that can deliver a

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Speaker 3: high amount of the you know, nutrition, but also a

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Speaker 3: high amount of the bad things that we need to

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Speaker 3: get out of our diet if we want to get

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Speaker 3: back to a healthy lifestyle. You also couple that to

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Speaker 3: our intelligence in creating machinery and industries that can do

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Speaker 3: hard labor for us. So the amount of physical labor

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Speaker 3: that most human beings on the planet have to engage

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Speaker 3: in has gone way down, and in fact, most jobs

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Speaker 3: are sedentary. You know, you're just sitting on your butt

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Speaker 3: all day and there's not a lot of time left

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Speaker 3: for exercise and activity, which again, back in All D's

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Speaker 3: on the African savannah, we were always hunting, foraging, moving around.

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Speaker 3: You know, we were more of a nomad species, relocating

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Speaker 3: from place to police. Yeah, long story short, we were

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Speaker 3: getting a lot of physical activity that we simply don't

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Speaker 3: obtain today.

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Speaker 2: I heard something. It's it's probably not an accurate stat

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Speaker 2: but I think it couldn't. It might be somewhere in

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Speaker 2: the ballpark, but the average Australian expends about eight hundred

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Speaker 2: calories a day, which is a lot of calories, but

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Speaker 2: eight hundred calories a day less than fifty years ago.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we're the sit down generation like we've

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Speaker 2: never in the history of our species. We've never sat

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Speaker 2: more than we currently sit, because you know, I would

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Speaker 2: assume ninety percent of jobs are done seated or I

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Speaker 2: don't know what percentage, but a lot, you know. So

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Speaker 2: it's not only our we're eating more. So the volume

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Speaker 2: is up, the quality of food depending on you know

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Speaker 2: who and where, but the quality of food arguably is

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Speaker 2: down or the crap, you know, more more processed food,

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Speaker 2: less nutritional value, all of those things. But yeah, overall,

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Speaker 2: we just don't like incidental and occupational activity as we

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Speaker 2: call us ex sized scientists call it incidental and occupational

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Speaker 2: activity is down. So in general terms, we just don't

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Speaker 2: move as much as we used to move fifty years ago,

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Speaker 2: one hundred years ago, and especially hundreds of years ago,

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Speaker 2: when you know you would think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: moved a lot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and then you know that's that's good news

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Speaker 3: bad news. I mean, we know these are the problems

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Speaker 3: that are leading to obesity and diabetes. We know it's

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Speaker 3: poor diet, we know it's not enough exercise, and you

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Speaker 3: know we should throw stress into that equation too. Remarkably,

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Speaker 3: it goes back to the paradise you alluded to earlier.

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Speaker 3: Craig in that we live in a tremendously wonderful time.

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Speaker 3: I mean, a lot of our basic needs are met. Okay,

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Speaker 3: even if you don't do a great deal of work

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Speaker 3: or make a lot of money, you can live a

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Speaker 3: pretty comfortable lifestyle. But we generate an extraordinary amount of

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Speaker 3: unnecessary stress and pressure and anxiety, and I think that

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Speaker 3: feeds back into making many of us miserable, which drives

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Speaker 3: appetite and discourages people from wanting to move around and exercise.

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Speaker 3: So I think ironically we have a higher level of

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Speaker 3: stress than maybe our evolutionary ancestors even did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I often think this.

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Speaker 2: Imagine going back a couple of hundred years and just

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Speaker 2: like being there for a day and you say, guess what.

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Speaker 2: In the future, you're just gonna like, if you're hot,

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Speaker 2: you're just going to push a button. And I'll go,

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Speaker 2: what's a button? We have to explain that you're going

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Speaker 2: to push a button on a wall and the room's

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Speaker 2: going to get cool, and then when you're cold, you

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Speaker 2: push another button, then the room will get warm. And

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Speaker 2: by the way, you're just going to have this thing

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Speaker 2: where it's going to have all this food in it.

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Speaker 2: That's fresh all the time and it keeps it cool.

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Speaker 2: And then you're going to have this other thing that

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Speaker 2: you can cook food in about ninety seconds. It's called

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Speaker 2: a microwave ove. And and then you're going to have this

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Speaker 2: thing you can just turn and cold fresh water comes

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Speaker 2: out like as much as you want. Like they'd be like,

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Speaker 2: that's bullshit, that's aw or you know, you know what.

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Speaker 3: Would happen to you if you were to go back

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Speaker 3: to the middle you would be burned at the steak

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Speaker 3: as a heretic and loon. That's what you would be,

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Speaker 3: you know, that's what they would do to you. Well,

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Speaker 3: Craig on the barbie.

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Speaker 1: But even imagine like when I was born, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the sixties.

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Speaker 2: Imagine if you said, in the not too distant future,

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Speaker 2: you're going to have you know, that telephone on the

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Speaker 2: wall with the bloody rotary do siling system. Well, you're

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Speaker 2: going to have a phone in your pocket that's you know,

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Speaker 2: like the size of a pack of cigarettes or smaller,

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Speaker 2: because that's what they had in their pocket in those days.

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Speaker 1: And not only not only will you be.

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Speaker 2: Able to talk to anyone anywhere in the world, it'll

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Speaker 2: also basically have more information than you know, all the

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Speaker 2: Encyclopedia Britannicas, which were also big in the sixties, put

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Speaker 2: together times a billion in your pocket and you can

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Speaker 2: just ask it a question and it will tell you

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Speaker 2: the answer to any like a game. And it's not

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Speaker 2: like that was a thousand years ago, that was last week.

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Speaker 2: In terms of the evolutionary you know timeline.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crazy to think about, and it would be

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Speaker 3: a fun experiment to be able to go back and

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Speaker 3: see what those individuals thought. I mean, you could even

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Speaker 3: like go back in time to the Middle Ages and see,

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Speaker 3: you know, you're not feeling well, not because of bad

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Speaker 3: error or because of demons or you know, gods that

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Speaker 3: are angry at you, it's because of this tiny germ. Oh,

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Speaker 3: we'll show it to me. Well, we need a microscope

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Speaker 3: to see it. What's a microscope? And so we're going

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Speaker 3: to have medicines one day that can get rid of

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Speaker 3: these germs and make people well. And yeah, they'll just

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Speaker 3: be looking at you like you're crazy. And it makes

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Speaker 3: you think, twenty forty one hundred years from now, what

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Speaker 3: are humans going to come up with that we can't

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Speaker 3: even imagine today. Yeah, you know, you know, I'm assuming

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Speaker 3: we last that long. What are they going to come

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Speaker 3: up with that'll just blow us away? It's it's fun

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Speaker 3: to philosophize and think about those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: And it's amazing.

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Speaker 2: Like we look back at the science in inverted commas

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Speaker 2: from you know, twenty thirty forty years ago, and some

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Speaker 2: of it was solid and some of it were like,

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Speaker 2: how on earth?

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Speaker 1: How on earth? You know?

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Speaker 2: Even for example, with the food pyramid is one that

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Speaker 2: I speak about too much, but you know, that was absolute,

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Speaker 2: that was break groundbreaking research and we found out that

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Speaker 2: it isn't and it's bullshit, but you know, but at

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Speaker 2: the time, everyone was like, this is the way to eat.

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Speaker 2: Low fat eating equals low fat humans, and off we go.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it makes you wonder in fifty years what

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Speaker 2: they're going to talk about that was science in inverted

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Speaker 2: commas in twenty twenty four, That to them will be laughable.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm going to make a prediction because I

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Speaker 3: won't be here to verify it or not. I won't

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Speaker 3: care if I'm right or wrong, but I'll make a

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Speaker 3: prediction that we are obsessed way too much with the

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Speaker 3: individual components of of you know, what types of bats

284
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Speaker 3: and how much sugar and all this other stuff that

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Speaker 3: are in foods. We're too obsessed with that. And you know,

286
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Speaker 3: to an extent, we do need to pay attention to

287
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Speaker 3: how much sugar, salt, and fat are in there. But

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Speaker 3: what that misses? What that misses or all the chemicals

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Speaker 3: that are put into food, all these preserved and all

290
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Speaker 3: these other chemicals that we have no idea what they

291
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Speaker 3: might be doing in our body, either alone or in combination,

292
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Speaker 3: because they're not sufficiently tested before they're utilized in food products.

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Speaker 3: Europe is a little better about this, and lo and behold, Craig.

294
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Speaker 3: They don't have a huge obesity problem.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: I just came back from a from a tour of

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Speaker 3: the Mediterranean, Okay, and it's striking the difference of how

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Speaker 3: thin people are, how lean people are in general over

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Speaker 3: there compared to almost anywhere you put yourself into in America.

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Speaker 3: There's it's a striking difference. But one thing that is

301
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Speaker 3: not different when you go to the Mediterranean, it is

302
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Speaker 3: full of cafes, pastries, canola's, gelato. There's all kinds of sweets, pastas, carbs, everything. Right,

303
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Speaker 3: The diet doesn't strike me as being ridiculously different. Maybe

304
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Speaker 3: the portions are smaller, and there's there's more fruits and

305
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:07,119
Speaker 3: vegetables and stuff. But the thing that struck me was

306
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Speaker 3: the freshness of the foods. Okay, people like go out

307
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,399
Speaker 3: to the market and or their gardens and grab what

308
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Speaker 3: they want to eat right then and there, right off

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Speaker 3: the vine, so to speak. Okay, it's all fresh. There's

310
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Speaker 3: no chemicals, there's no preservatives, and maybe the stuff that

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Speaker 3: we're putting into food in order to process it or

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Speaker 3: ultra process it, maybe those are the real culprits. And

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Speaker 3: fifty years from now, my prediction is that we are

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Speaker 3: going to sort some of that out and we're going

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Speaker 3: to look back and say, oh, why were we so

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Speaker 3: obsessed with a little too much sugar? It was these

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Speaker 3: chemicals that were making everybody so large.

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Speaker 1: That is a very very interesting hypothesis. Stock I don't

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Speaker 1: disagree with you.

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Speaker 2: And you know, further to that, when you have I

321
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Speaker 2: always talk to people about you know, packaging and food labeling.

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Speaker 2: And you know what's written on the front of the

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Speaker 2: box or the can or the packet is advertising. And

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Speaker 2: the tiny little box, the tiny little square down the

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Speaker 2: bottom of the back of the package with the teeny

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Speaker 2: tiny writing that you really, I can't read it because

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Speaker 2: my eyes are shit and I'm old. But there's a

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Speaker 2: reason that it's hidden away down the bottom at the back,

329
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Speaker 2: and there's a reason that the writing is so small,

330
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Speaker 2: and there's a reason that they're trying to make it

331
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Speaker 2: is as obscure as possible, because they don't want you

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Speaker 2: to pay attention to that, you know. And it's funny

333
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Speaker 2: when you look at something like and this is ironic,

334
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 2: but a protein bar, you go, I might have a

335
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Speaker 2: protein bar that's better than a Mars baruck.

336
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Speaker 1: Probably not.

337
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Speaker 2: I mean some of them, like some of those protein

338
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Speaker 2: bars in inverted commas, which sell like hotcakes in Australia

339
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Speaker 2: because ironically hotcakes, we think, you know, that's a healthy option.

340
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Speaker 2: Some of them have got fifty ingredients and forty of

341
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 2: the ingredients you don't know what they are.

342
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And we have the same trends over here, people

343
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,120
Speaker 3: gobbling these things down like their candy, and they're marketed

344
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Speaker 3: as if they're not candy. Yeah, you know, and it's

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00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 3: kind of goofy to me. I think one of the

346
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Speaker 3: manufacturers of these bars got sued because they were making

347
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Speaker 3: health cleans, when in fact they were just a glorified

348
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Speaker 3: candy bar.

349
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, I don't know how

350
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Speaker 2: it is in the States, but there's a I think

351
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 2: it's called the Heart Foundation in Australia where you can

352
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Speaker 2: buy what's called a healthy Heart tick or something like that.

353
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: So companies pay.

354
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Speaker 2: It's all about just a transaction to get this tick

355
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Speaker 2: of approval from the Heart Foundation on the front of

356
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Speaker 2: their product. And it doesn't it's not because it meets

357
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Speaker 2: some criteria. I could be wrong on this, but I'm

358
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,120
Speaker 2: pretty sure. Maybe it's got to meet some very low

359
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 2: level criteria. But for the most part, my understanding is

360
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 2: it's something that companies pay for, which is good for

361
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 2: the Heart Foundation, I guess, because it gives them money

362
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: in the bank. But it seemed to be some kind of,

363
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 2: you know, brand improving kind of strategy. Do you think

364
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 2: that like talking about the past and the now. I

365
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 2: always feel like we have become disconnected from the wisdom

366
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 2: of our body. And I know that sounds fluffy, but

367
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 2: you know, like our body is so smart now. Bio

368
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 2: is a biofeedback system that's always talking to us. But

369
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,439
Speaker 2: you know, in the days of instant gratification and fast

370
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 2: food and basically dopamine at will, you know, or dopamine

371
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 2: providers of sorts, you know, like where we can just

372
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 2: push that button and get a quick fix. I feel

373
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Speaker 2: like we've disconnected from our body in a way.

374
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Speaker 3: We are totally disconnected. There's a scientific term for these phenomenon,

375
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,679
Speaker 3: and it's called evolutionary mismatch, and it's basically that we

376
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 3: are not born for this time. We are not born

377
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 3: for the modern environment that we have created. We are

378
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 3: born to literally be hunters and gatherers and small tribes

379
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 3: on the African savannah. That's what we've evolved to be

380
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,160
Speaker 3: for tens of millions of years. So that is deeply,

381
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 3: deeply wired into our brain and that's just how things are,

382
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 3: that's our history. But you put us in. You put

383
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 3: an animal like that into the modern world where it's

384
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 3: a veritable candy land and you don't have to move

385
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 3: around as much. You know, you sit and watch television

386
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 3: passively for hours. You have an animal that is ill

387
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 3: suited for its environment, and there's negative health consequences that

388
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 3: start to accumulate over time with that lifestyle. And it's

389
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 3: a catch twenty two with our brain because back in

390
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 3: our old evolutionary days, you know, millions of years ago,

391
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 3: when it was hard to come by something sweet or

392
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 3: something fatty, our brain would go absolutely nuts when it

393
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 3: finally tasted something that had something that had a sweet

394
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 3: flavor or a fatty flavor, it would just go nuts.

395
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,719
Speaker 3: Dopamine would be surging because it's a substantial reward, and

396
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 3: it would induce us to move our bodies to go

397
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 3: find those foods as much as we can. But they

398
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 3: were quite rare, so they were they were rare treats.

399
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 3: But now we can just sit and hit the dopamine

400
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 3: button all day long, popping in crisp after crisp, you know,

401
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 3: candy bar after candy bar, and you know that our

402
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 3: body was not built to handle that level of sugar, fat,

403
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 3: and salt. It just simply is not. And then you

404
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: couple that on top of the fact that many of these,

405
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 3: you know, these these candies and potato chips and pretzels

406
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 3: and so on, are highly processed foods with all sorts

407
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 3: of other chemicals added into that. You just have an

408
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 3: incredibly artificial nutritional source that our body has not evolved

409
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:17,719
Speaker 3: to metabolize properly. Okay, it's evolved to enjoy the taste

410
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 3: and the texture, but it's not evolved to translate it

411
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 3: into something nutritionally valuable.

412
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think like one of the challenges is,

413
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: you know that you can push the dopamine button and

414
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: go all right, I'm going to eat the cake, or

415
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to eat the candy bar, or I'm gonna

416
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: eat the crisps, or I'm going to eat whatever it

417
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: is that thing that while simultaneously being in a body

418
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: that isn't working well, you know, and simultaneously thinking I

419
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,239
Speaker 2: want to get in shape. I want to change my

420
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 2: body composition, lose fat, lose weight, be healthier, have more energy,

421
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: have more function, improve my immune system, create a longer

422
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 2: health span, all that stuff. But for the moment, I'm

423
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 2: going to eat this cake because when I eat this cake,

424
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: I get instant gratification. But if I don't eat the cake,

425
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: then I don't get instant transformation. And so I'll eat

426
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 2: the cake today, but I'll start tomorrow. And that becomes

427
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 2: a twenty year in a dialogue. And now I'm fifty

428
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 2: two and now I'm morbidly obese. My back hurts, I've

429
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 2: got high blood pressure, I'm diabetic, and I've almost been

430
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: changing my operating system since I was thirty, and that

431
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: is I think that is the hard thing about delaying

432
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 2: gratification is that they're you know, the point of the

433
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: point is that we love that fix that whatever right now,

434
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: and when we say no, you just left in this

435
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: kind of space of well, this is not much fun.

436
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: And the worst thing I've put that in inverted commas

437
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: is that you've got to have quite a lot of

438
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: those days to actually see real shift, and then you've

439
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 2: got a string years together to actually change your you know,

440
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 2: your hardwired operating system. And this is you know, when

441
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: you've been eating and thinking and behaving and socializing and

442
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: living a certain way for twenty five years, you're not

443
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: going to fix that by next Tuesday.

444
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: You know.

445
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 3: No, it's a step wise process and it's not something

446
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 3: This is a misconception that a lot of people have,

447
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: and that's why fad diets are so popular. Everybody's looking

448
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 3: for a quick fix, just like you know, the satisfaction

449
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: you get from a piece of cake. They want to

450
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: get a quick fix out of a dietary program. And

451
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 3: that's not going to happen. That's not how these things work. Yes,

452
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 3: these are more like lifelong changes. Lifestyle changes. You have

453
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 3: to program your brain to resist instant gratification, keeping in

454
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: mind the long term goal and the long term satisfaction

455
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 3: that will come with a healthier you know, with a

456
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 3: healthier body. So it's hard for human beings to think

457
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 3: like that because again we're not evolutionarily designed to think

458
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 3: in the long term. Our lives used to be much shorter, okay,

459
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: and resources were much more scarce, so we operated on

460
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 3: a very here and now level okay. And again that

461
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 3: kind of behavior is deeply ingrained into our brain. It's

462
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 3: deeply hardwired there. So you really do have to put

463
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 3: forth substantial effort. And that's why this is not easy. Crazy.

464
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: This is why so many people fail when they try.

465
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 3: Is you have to put forth a daily effort to

466
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: try to resist the instant gratification, keeping in mind the

467
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: real prize is down the road, and it's full of

468
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 3: hurdles to get there, but it's worth getting there.

469
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I my listeners know this, but don't after you know,

470
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: at doc, But I spent. I always had food issues

471
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: when I was a kid because I was a fat

472
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: kid and I had everything that wasn't niled down. And

473
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: then I got in shape, lean strong, functional, and then

474
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: towards my late twenties and early thirties, I had five businesses.

475
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 2: Life was good, making lots, do you know. From the

476
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: outside looking in, everything was good. But my volatile relationship

477
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: with food kind of re emerged, and I started to

478
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: just I'll have a little bit of this, little bit

479
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: of that, and that won't hurt you know, one piece

480
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: won't kill me, that kind of idea, and of course

481
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 2: one piece won't literally kill you generally. But then I

482
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 2: looked up a minute later, which was probably a year later,

483
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: and I was basically fat again.

484
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: And I remember, so here I am.

485
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: I'm this guy who's got quite a high profile in

486
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: Australian fitness and workshops and seminars all around the country.

487
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 2: I'm writing for magazines and news. I'm doing all this

488
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 2: stuff and I'm lying. I'm lying to people about what

489
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: I do, you know, And I'm wearing bigger and baggier

490
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: workout so people won't know.

491
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: Of course they won't.

492
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: No, nobody could possibly tell, because these are magic clothes

493
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 2: right right right Like for me, I don't know about you,

494
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: but for me, like food was it really took until

495
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: I was and even though I knew what to do.

496
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: I had pretty good understanding, I was pretty educated all that.

497
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: For me, it just took, I would say, until I

498
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: was about thirty five before I got I would say

499
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: almost the analogy would be clean and sober, do you

500
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: know what I mean?

501
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: Where I wasn't pushing itself or others. It took me

502
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: a long time.

503
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: I've heard psychologists talk in those terms about food addiction

504
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 3: and john food addiction, treating it as such and people

505
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 3: who can finally modify their habits as kind of a

506
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: sobering up. I've heard that before. So it's a pretty

507
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 3: apt analogy, I would say. And there's even been studies

508
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 3: that show that sugar lates up to seeing parts of

509
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: your brain cocaine will, So there are some parallels there.

510
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: And everyone is well aware how hard it is to

511
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: break addiction with substances like cocaine or alcohol. But what

512
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: we don't appreciate very much is it's just as hard

513
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 3: in many cases to break those addictions to sugar, fat,

514
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: and salt as well. I applaud you for doing it,

515
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: and I know a lot of people struggle with it because,

516
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: like I said, we are evolutionarily hardwired to go after

517
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 3: those types of foods. So we're basically trying to put

518
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 3: a break on the human spirit itself. We're trying to

519
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 3: put a break on innate, impulsive actions, and that's really

520
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: difficult to do, but it can be done. And what

521
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 3: I found, you know, as I started to eat better

522
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: and because you know, as you get older, your metabolism

523
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: isn't what it used to be, and the same foods

524
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 3: that you put into you start to pack on pounds

525
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: rather than just magically, you know, disappear. So I noticed

526
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 3: in my twenties I was gaining weight for like the

527
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: first time in my life, but my diet wasn't changing much.

528
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: But since my metabolism was changing because of age and

529
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 3: I was a little more sedentary in those days, I

530
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 3: had to make some changes in order to stay as

531
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 3: lean as I used to be. And I wanted to

532
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 3: do that because in my brain I knew it was healthy.

533
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 3: You know, I'm here working in biomedical sciences, so I

534
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: have to toe that line, right, you know, I have

535
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 3: to practice what I preach, kind of like your story

536
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: was alluding to. So I made those changes and they

537
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: were really difficult, you know, breaking habits and forming new ones.

538
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 3: It's serious business, but it can be done. And the

539
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 3: good news is that, at least in my experience, as

540
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 3: you start to eat healthier and as you start to

541
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 3: move around more and get more exercise, these sorts of

542
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 3: activities become addictive as well. So you're trading off an

543
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 3: addiction for junk food for an addiction with healthy behavior. Okay.

544
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 3: I used to be addicted to mountain dew, doctor pepper,

545
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: these sodas, okay, these are these sugar waters. I made

546
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: a clean cold turkey break from those after realizing it's

547
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 3: hard for me to fathom that. When I was younger,

548
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: I did not appreciate how much sugar was in a

549
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: single can of pop or soda. And once I learned that,

550
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 3: once someone told me that, I'm like, holy crap, I

551
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: really got to knock this stuff off. This is an

552
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 3: easy way to start losing weight. Okay, So I quit

553
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: them cold turkey. I just started drinking water. You know,

554
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 3: water is plenty of refreshing for me. That was one

555
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: of the biggest changes I saw. You know, in my

556
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: history of dealing with weight issues, is that just dropping

557
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 3: soda out of your life can work. Wonders. But then

558
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, get addicted to all sorts of teas,

559
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: you know, and you know there's other alternatives out there

560
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 3: that you can find and enjoy with as much you know,

561
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 3: passion as you did the other products. The big difference

562
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: is they're healthier for you.

563
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

564
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: One of the things I used to do doc when

565
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: I owned gyms and I did you know, my I

566
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: was at the cold face of personal training forever. And

567
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: when people would come in, we'd do an assessment, which

568
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: would be, you know, there'd be a bit of formal stuff,

569
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: a bit of hesting per se, you know, strength and fitness,

570
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: and a few bits and pieces, but we'd have a

571
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: really good chat and I would say to people.

572
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: People would say, no, I've got to I eat too much,

573
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, I moved too little, all that kind of stuff.

574
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: And I'd say, take me through a typical day of

575
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: what you put in your body. And they'd tell me breakfast, lunch,

576
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: and dinner. And I'd go, yeah, but tell me about

577
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: all the stuff you drink. And what was interesting was

578
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: a bigger percentage of people than you might imagine drink

579
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: about a thousand calories a day on top of their meals.

580
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 3: Right, they make coffees over here that are almost a

581
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 3: thousand calories in one serving. It's insane.

582
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what people don't realize.

583
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: So I used to say to people, what we're going

584
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: to do, Like if obviously this would be a collaboration,

585
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: but I'd say, why don't we do this, Why don't

586
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: we just cut out liquid calories for one month, Let's

587
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: try that. Let's leave your food as it is, because

588
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: my experience is the more things you try and change

589
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: the more drastically, the less likely people are to maintain

590
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: it over any length of time. Right, So, or we

591
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: might even say, you know, like have one flat white

592
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: or one latte a day or whatever it is, but

593
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: we go from a thousand calories to two hundred calories

594
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: of liquid.

595
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: So that's eight hundred calories.

596
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: You know, over thirty days is twenty four thousand calories

597
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: we're cutting out without eating any less food. Just that

598
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: one little hack or that one little protocol would absolutely

599
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: create real change, you know, Like it doesn't need to

600
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: be this overwhelming kind of massive global shift in your

601
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: operating system. It might just be like, oh, you know, well,

602
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: let's say you have one or two wines a night,

603
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: and you have three coffees a day, and you have

604
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: fruit juice in the morning, and then you have phil

605
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: cream milk on your cereal and.

606
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: There's a thousand calories. Oh, there's more than a thousand calories.

607
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: So so I like that approach though, because it's kind

608
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 3: of like taking baby steps. That approach, to me is

609
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 3: pretty ingenious, and it's a good way to kind of

610
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 3: get people to wade into the water of a healthy

611
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 3: lifestyle because you're allowing them to continue to eat as

612
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 3: they normally would, but you're strategically looking at the beverage factor,

613
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 3: which is underappreciated and offmost people's radars. They don't realize

614
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: how many calories are in the sodas and some of

615
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 3: these you know, you know, these lattes and cappuccinos and

616
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 3: stuff or you know, or milkshakes or whatever. Get those

617
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 3: out of your life and maybe walk fifteen twenty minutes

618
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 3: a day. You'll see a pretty revolutionary change just with

619
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 3: those small modifications.

620
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: One of the things that I think, I totally agree.

621
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: One of the things I think that a lot of

622
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 2: I can only talk from my industry or the industry

623
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: that I came from, which is the fitness industry, is

624
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: because a lot of people who work in the fitness

625
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: industry are of course fit, strong, healthy, functional, and they

626
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: not all of them, but a lot of them have

627
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: a certain way of eating, and you know, by typical standards.

628
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: You know. It's like.

629
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: I put up a post yesterday on Instagram which is

630
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: essentially a reflection of I didn't intend to read this,

631
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: I'm just going to bring it up right now, which

632
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: is not very and so one of the things that

633
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 2: I've been told a thousand times is but you've got

634
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: to have a life, right And so people are inferring,

635
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: you know, and I understand it doesn't make I completely

636
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: understand why they say it, because when they look at

637
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: my life through their lens, I'm the most boring person

638
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 2: on the planet. I'm clearly malnourished, I clearly have no

639
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: fun I have no you know, And so I understand this.

640
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 2: But one of the things that trainers do sometimes also

641
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: is they look at the client through their window and

642
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: their lens and they try to take the client from

643
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: this operating system at one end of the scale to

644
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: the other end of the scale in a week, and

645
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: it just never.

646
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: Works because you too much as you've just got to you.

647
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: Know what, this is a multi dimensional challenge. This is psychological, emotional, sociological, behavioral, physiological.

648
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: You know, there are so many variables here. And what

649
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 2: you're trying to do is work with Sally or John

650
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: that for twenty five years have kind of been in

651
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: this reality and now you're taking them over to Disneyland

652
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: and going you've got to live here.

653
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 3: Now.

654
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work like that.

655
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: So being able to I mean, this is something that

656
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 2: people roll their eyes at, but I remember I worked

657
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: with a guy who used to smoke. This is not

658
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: a lie over one hundred cigarettes a day. So basically

659
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: from when he woke up to when he went to

660
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: bed and he came to me and like, clearly so

661
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: many things to deal with. But and so our goal

662
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: in the first week, our goal was to smoke fifty

663
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: cigarettes a day. And people are like, how on earth

664
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: are you okay with that as a goal. I'm like,

665
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 2: that is a smart goal, you know why, because that's

666
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: half like me setting him a goal of zero or five.

667
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: He's not going to do it. He's not going to

668
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: do it.

669
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, you need to frame it in terms of like

670
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 3: a percentage. They say, I got this person to cut

671
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 3: back fifty percent. That way, they're not here in the

672
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: raw numbers, you know, but when you hear is that

673
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 3: someone cut their habit in half, that's really admirable, you know, yeah,

674
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 3: cut it in half again, and so on, and you

675
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 3: know it's a reasonable approach. I think you're right. You know,

676
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: it's a really good point that you raise in that

677
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 3: there's no one stop shop for everybody when it comes

678
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 3: to changing their habits. You really do have to factor

679
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 3: in their holistic life. You know, what sort of experiences

680
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 3: have they had to have led them to their current behaviors,

681
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 3: and you have to work through those channels and see

682
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,959
Speaker 3: things through their eyes in order to design the most

683
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 3: ideal program that's going to be effective in modifying behavior.

684
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, spirit of mind, doc, trying to understand someone else's

685
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: bog of right now? All right, I've got a few

686
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: I've got a few Bill Sullivan questions for you. Firstly,

687
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: I read that I read that Adam Alter wrote basically

688
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: a testimony on your your book. So, doctor Bill's book,

689
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: if you haven't heard of it, you should by now

690
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 2: please to meet me.

691
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: Jean's germs and the curious forces that make us who

692
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: we are.

693
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 2: But I read Adam Alter's book Drunk Tank Pink, I

694
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,959
Speaker 2: must have been ten years ago or eight or seven

695
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 2: years ago.

696
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: A long time ago now, but what a great book.

697
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: Great book, and can you have you read it? Have

698
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: you read it?

699
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 3: Like you It was about eight years ago or so

700
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 3: when it first came out.

701
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I remember the story that he tells doc

702
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 2: of and maybe you can explain how this works.

703
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 1: Right. So one of the things that they there.

704
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 2: Was a a police station and they had these holding

705
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 2: cells basically for drunk people. And so it was in

706
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: this area I forget where it was, but really violent

707
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: people and they'd put all these blokes essentially men in

708
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 2: these holding cells overnight and there'd be punch ons and violence.

709
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: It was one of the most violent.

710
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: You know, kind of places in the States, or holding

711
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 2: cells in any way. They they found out that through

712
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 2: a range of different things, that if they painted the

713
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: holding cells pink, that it completely changed the behavior of

714
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: the prisoners or the people being held, and it totally

715
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 2: affected their nervous system the way they communicated that the

716
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: violence almost went to zero. Like, what an amazing thing

717
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,959
Speaker 2: to think that having like being basically in a pink

718
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: room versus a gray room is going to change behavior

719
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 2: that much.

720
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 3: There's been a lot of stuff that have looked at

721
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 3: the behavioral effects of responding to different colors. You know,

722
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 3: there's been some studies that show if a boxer has

723
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 3: on red trunks, he tends to be perceived as much

724
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 3: more aggressive than say a boxer who's wearing neutral or

725
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: white trunks.

726
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: Wow.

727
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 3: There's been also studies and pharmaceutical companies do this where

728
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 3: they you know, you know how pills get their colors.

729
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 3: It's marketing. They give different colored pills to different people.

730
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 3: And I forget some of the specifics, but like a

731
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: yellow pill works fantastically better as an antidepressive depressant than

732
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 3: an antidepressant that had no color or some kind of

733
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 3: neutral color. But if you make it yellow, it seems

734
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 3: to work even better. So it's like there's a placebo

735
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 3: effect accompanying some of these drugs just because of the

736
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 3: color of the pill. It's pretty remarkable. And people, if

737
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 3: you want them to be more urgent, more productive, you

738
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 3: put them in a red room as opposed to like

739
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 3: a green room, because red has a more of an

740
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 3: urgency about it, and people seem to work faster and

741
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 3: harder in a red room and in a green room

742
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: they're kind of more chill, but they can get more creative.

743
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 3: So it's really interesting how those colors which we're not

744
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 3: even thinking about, right, it's not on our conscious radar,

745
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 3: but it is somehow affecting us at a subconscious level,

746
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 3: and it's percolating up to change our behavior.

747
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: It's amazing the amount of different stimulile variables that can

748
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 2: impact your psychological and or emotional system without you knowing

749
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: or without you being super conscious in the moment. Like,

750
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 2: I'm very affected by music, and the wrong music can

751
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: make me agitated, and the right music, when I say

752
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 2: right music for me can just literally make me happy.

753
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 3: Like well, as someone who in a is someone who

754
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: works in a gym, you have to know that music

755
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 3: can make a really big difference. If you're playing air

756
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 3: supply in the background, you're not going to have a

757
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 3: great workout.

758
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: Oh loud of love, God, how do you know is supply?

759
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: How old are you?

760
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 3: Well? How you from Australia?

761
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good, dude. Well you just got to mention

762
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: the beg's in excess and.

763
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 3: There you know, but like you put on you put

764
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: on survivors ay the Tiger and it's a different story. Right,

765
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 3: you're lifting twice as much as you used to be

766
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 3: able to do when you were hearing lost, lost in

767
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 3: Love or whatever their whatever air supplies U songs.

768
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: You're not helping You're not helping your brand by knowing

769
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 1: that I'm just going to say you that, I tell

770
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: you that. Hey.

771
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 2: So, one of the pieces of advice that I got

772
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: it's not going to surprise you growing up, was that

773
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: you need to control your emotions.

774
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 1: My question is is that possible? Can we control our

775
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: emotions or do we just respond to them? Or do

776
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: our emotions control us? Or is there a better question?

777
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 3: Well, there's certainly a lot of variability, But let me

778
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 3: ask you, do you think you control your emotions better

779
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 3: than when you were two years old?

780
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 2: But most people that'd say, yes, I know you, I do, Yes,

781
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: I do.

782
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, then we can control our emotions. We certainly can.

783
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 3: So we have that capacity. Is it easy? No, No,

784
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 3: it's not. Emotions are primal. They surge within us beyond

785
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 3: our control. Okay. We can't control what emotions we feel,

786
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,479
Speaker 3: can't really control what sort of thoughts pop into our mind.

787
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 3: But we can put a space in between those sensations

788
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 3: that we feel and what we're going to do about them. Okay.

789
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 3: That's what makes us human is we can insert this space,

790
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 3: this pause in between our emotions and our actions, and

791
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 3: we can take the time to evaluate the emotion and

792
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 3: produce the corresponding reaction that is appropriate to it. Okay.

793
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 3: The classic example is that and we're by we're strongly

794
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 3: biased towards paying attention to our negative emotions. I think

795
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 3: everyone is pretty aware of that. But that's a survival mechanism.

796
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 3: Because if you're walking through the woods and you hear

797
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 3: rustling in the bushes, okay, your first instinct is probably like, oh,

798
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 3: this is an animal or a snake or something out

799
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 3: to get me, and you might you might run and

800
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: take off, but it could have just been the wind. Okay.

801
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 3: So again, the beauty of being human is that we

802
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 3: hear these noises, these suspicious noises, we can evaluate that

803
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 3: emotion in the context of the situation and see if

804
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 3: it's a real threat or not. If it's a threat,

805
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 3: we'll run. If it's not, we can deal with it

806
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 3: more rationally.

807
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: Yes.

808
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 3: So it's just like the old stoic philosophers used to say,

809
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with emotions. It's natural to feel them.

810
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 3: You shouldn't feel guilty or ashamed for feeling those emotions,

811
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 3: but you are responsible for the behavior that was inspired

812
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 3: by those emotions, and you have time, you have a

813
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 3: space that you can put in there to evaluate the

814
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 3: emotion and see what the appropriate response is going to be.

815
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: Do you think this is a very personal question, but

816
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: do you think that you've gotten more courageous or more

817
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: fearful as you've gotten older, or or neither you kind

818
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: of status quo?

819
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 3: I think it probably depends a lot on the situation, right.

820
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: You know, there are some things that I think I'm

821
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 3: probably much more braver about, and then there's other things

822
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: that I'm still very cautious about. So so yeah, it

823
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 3: really depends on the nature of the specific situation. I

824
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 3: would see.

825
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: So I watched you on a video and you're on

826
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 2: You're on television, and you said, if you take intestinal

827
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 2: bacteria from a brave mouse and you put it in

828
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: a shy mouse, then the shy mouse becomes braver and

829
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 2: less fearful.

830
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 3: I think something like one of it's one of my

831
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 3: favorite experiments. I mean what I mean, what what It's crazy,

832
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 3: isn't it?

833
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: And is that? I mean?

834
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: I know, can we could we make a race of

835
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 2: super soldiers just by transplanting intestinal bacteria from great people.

836
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 3: I would I would, I would guess no, because in

837
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 3: these studies, and you describe the study quite well, you know,

838
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 3: mice have different personalities. Different strains of mice have different personalities.

839
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 3: Some are more timid and some take greater risks. And

840
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 3: just as you said, if you take the intestinal bacteria

841
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 3: from the brave mouse and put it into the cowardly mouse,

842
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 3: that cowardly mouse starts to become a little more brave.

843
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 3: And we see these types of behavioral changes almost every

844
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 3: time we do these sorts of intestinal microbiota transplant experiments. Okay,

845
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: here's one that has been done in humans, and this

846
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 3: one will blow your mind too. There are people who

847
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 3: have certain type of cancer and they're all treated with

848
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 3: the same type of chemotherapy. Some people respond to it,

849
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 3: some people don't. But if you take the bacteria from

850
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 3: the people who respond positively to the key chemotherapeutic treatment

851
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 3: put it into the patients that aren't responding to it,

852
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 3: those patients suddenly respond to the chemotherapy. Wow is crazy.

853
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 3: So what this is telling us is there's something that

854
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 3: the trillions of different bacteria in our guts are producing

855
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 3: a metabolite of some kind, you know, basically a chemical

856
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 3: at the end of the day that is bestowing upon us,

857
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 3: you know, this magical property that we previously didn't have.

858
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 3: And it can work in bad ways too. You know,

859
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 3: there's there's people who have undergone fecal transplantation to actually

860
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 3: treat a superinfection called sea diff. Okay, this is a

861
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 3: colitis infection that many people who are on prolonged antibiotics

862
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 3: suffer from, and this bacterial species called sea diff is

863
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 3: naturally resistant to most antibiotics. What has what can cure

864
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 3: ninety five percent of those cases is if you take

865
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 3: intestinal bacteria from a healthy person put it into that

866
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 3: person with the superinfection, superinfection has gone almost immediately. It's

867
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 3: crazy that it works so well. However, there is a catch.

868
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 3: The donors of this bacteria need to be screened very

869
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 3: carefully because they can also transmit pathogens with these intestinal bacteria.

870
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 3: And there's also a couple cases where allergies were transferred,

871
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 3: and I think at least one case where depression was transferred. So,

872
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 3: you know, it's a marvelous concept and I think it's

873
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 3: going to be a really big piece of the future

874
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 3: medical pie, if you will. I think this is going

875
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 3: to be a mainstream therapy, maybe forty fifty years down

876
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 3: the road, remodeling the microbiome, so to speak. But there

877
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 3: are some caveats that are pretty serious we need to

878
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 3: pay attention to if we're going to engage in this

879
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 3: sort of therapeutic. But yeah, it's pretty fat. You know.

880
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 3: Another thing that can make people take more risks is

881
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 3: that parasite that we've talked about before called toxoplasma GANDHII

882
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 3: that we study in my laboratory that has infected one.

883
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 3: That's the one from cats. No, you get it. You

884
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 3: get it from cat feces, not the urine. You can.

885
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 3: You can drink all the cat urine you want, but

886
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 3: it's the cat feces that that is dangerous.

887
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: So you.

888
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: Just did our promo, Thanks for that.

889
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, always happy to help. But yeah, the infected

890
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 3: cats can spread it through their stool, okay, But you

891
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: can also get it from raw under cooked meat, contaminated water,

892
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,919
Speaker 3: and there's multiple ways to get it. But the point

893
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 3: I'm trying to make is that when you do get this,

894
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 3: you don't really get sick. But the parasite will live

895
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 3: in your brain for the rest of your life. And

896
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 3: there are some really compelling studies that correlate the presence

897
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 3: of that parasite in the brain to an increase in

898
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 3: risk taking activity. You know, you're more brave, you're more reckless.

899
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 3: So there's some really interesting things that are beyond genetics,

900
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 3: because there's a genetic component to risk taking behavior as

901
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 3: well that factor into the equation as to whether someone

902
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 3: is timid or risk taking. But what in the world

903
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 3: those bacteria are doing in that original experiment you described,

904
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 3: We have no idea at the moment, but it opens

905
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 3: the doors to some fascinating science.

906
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just so much we still I mean, there's

907
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: so much we know now that we didn't, but there's

908
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 2: still so much that we don't like. And it's interesting

909
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: when we know what the out or what a potential

910
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 2: outcome of some intervention or some treatment or whatever is,

911
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 2: but we don't know the mechanism and we know you

912
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 2: do this and this happens, but we don't know why.

913
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: It's the That's the bit we need to get right,

914
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: is the why.

915
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 3: But that's the great starting point, and that's why I

916
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 3: love working in science because there is no end to

917
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 3: the list of interesting observations that people have made, but

918
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 3: each one opens up a whole new can of worms,

919
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 3: a whole new you know, treasure trove of questions that

920
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 3: we can then go address. And that's what's so endlessly

921
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 3: fascinating about my job.

922
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: I know how many things have been discovered, you know.

923
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: Accidentally I was talking to on the show today. We're

924
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: recording this on the twenty third, which is Monday. I'm

925
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: just blanking. What's it called? What's that I'm blanking? What's

926
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 2: the erectile dysfunction drug called?

927
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 3: Oh? Viagra?

928
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, viagra? Sorry.

929
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 2: I was talking to Alex. Doctor Alex, who's a neurosurgeon,

930
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 2: a friend of mine. He comes on the show. You

931
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 2: two would have a great We should both get you

932
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 2: on one day. But oh, he's great. He's great.

933
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 3: I love to pick the brain of a neuros scientists.

934
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: I say, what you did there, We'll put a whip

935
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: cracking sound in there.

936
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 2: But we were talking about how I mean that, like

937
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 2: biographer example, was developed as I think a blood treasure

938
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 2: pressure treatment or something similar, and it just had this

939
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: weird byproduct that pharmaceutical companies went, hey, look what we

940
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: did we just cured one of the greatest man problems

941
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 2: of old time?

942
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: Or not?

943
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 3: Really right? No, you're exactly right. It was a blood

944
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 3: pressure medication. That was what it was designed to do.

945
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 3: But as they started putting it into clinical trials, men

946
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 3: started exhibiting this peculiar side effect of erections that would

947
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 3: just appear spontaneously and wouldn't go away. And they started

948
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 3: reporting these to the nurses that were taking care of them,

949
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 3: and that obviously got back to phiser people, and I'm

950
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 3: sure that people who were interested in high blood pressure

951
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 3: were really disappointed. So geniuses in marketing or whatever department

952
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 3: were like talk about, you know, taking lemons and making lemonade.

953
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 3: My god, they turned into a blockbuster drug. They invented this,

954
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 3: this syndrome that didn't even have a name in order

955
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 3: to sell this pill that was going to go into

956
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 3: the trash can because it was not doing what it

957
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 3: was intended to do. Yeah. Wow, they ran away with

958
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 3: that side effect.

959
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: It was.

960
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 3: It's quite a story.

961
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 2: And think about the potential, Like if it was efficient

962
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: as a blood pressure treatment, they might have made one X,

963
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 2: but with Viagra that made a thousand X, so probably

964
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: a million X.

965
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: You know, in terms of that.

966
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, lemons to lemonade a couple of quick questions.

967
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: Have you got a little bit or have you got

968
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: to go?

969
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 3: No, I'm good, this is fun.

970
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: So one of the.

971
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 2: Realities of living in Australia. Well, this is my version.

972
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 2: I've been here for a while now. Is that not all?

973
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 2: But and maybe it's changing a little bit, but a

974
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 2: lot of doctors hand out antibiotics like lollies.

975
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 3: Right, that's too bad.

976
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 1: This is not a good.

977
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: I'm not proud to say this, but I reckon I've

978
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 2: been on antibiotics at least twenty times in my life, right,

979
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 2: which is not I know that's not a great thing.

980
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 3: Well, that might not necessarily be a bad thing. Antibiotics

981
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 3: are not evil per se, and sometimes they're life saving,

982
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 3: but there is a tendency in Western civilization to over

983
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 3: prescribe them.

984
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel that.

985
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 2: So that's my point is just I don't I'm not

986
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 2: asking a specific question, but I'd love you just to

987
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 2: riff on antibiotics and give us like a bit of

988
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 2: your thoughts on antibiotics. And yes, of course they obviously

989
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 2: serve a very legitimate medical purpose.

990
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: We know that, but in general, have a chat for

991
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: us about that, if you would.

992
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. I lecture on this to medical students every year.

993
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 3: Antibiotics are some of the most precious drugs that have

994
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 3: ever been developed. In fact, the first, well the one

995
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 3: that most people ascribed to be the first, was penicillin,

996
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 3: and it was literally called the miracle drug because it

997
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 3: was saving people from fatal infections that we never had

998
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 3: cure for before. These were truly miraculous treatments, and it's

999
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 3: even been suggested that the advent of penicillin helped the

1000
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 3: Allies win World War Two. It was that important in

1001
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 3: order to save soldiers on the battlefield and soldiers from

1002
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 3: suffering from gangreen so they could get back on the

1003
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 3: not gangreen, gonorrhea. Actually they were suffering from gonorrhea. They

1004
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 3: wanted to clear that up so they can get them

1005
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 3: back onto the battlefield. But anyway, these are precious, precious drugs.

1006
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 3: But as Alexander Fleming, who discovered penicillin, suggested during his

1007
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 3: Nobel Prize speech, if we're not careful with these drugs,

1008
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 3: the bacteria are going to evolve resistance to them, and

1009
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 3: boy was he right. Within five years of penicillin being

1010
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 3: on the market, we started seeing widespread resistance to that antibiotic,

1011
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 3: and that's a very scary thing. So antibiotic research exploded

1012
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 3: in the subsequent decades up until about the seventies, and

1013
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 3: then it started to taper off. And as a consequence,

1014
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 3: we had dozens and dozens of wonderful antibiotics that we

1015
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 3: could give patients and in many cases they cured their

1016
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 3: infection and in some cases it saved their lives. These

1017
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 3: are literally life saving drugs. So what's the problem if

1018
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,479
Speaker 3: he over prescribed them. If we give them when they're

1019
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 3: not needed, a couple bad things happen. First of all,

1020
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 3: we create environments where bacteria can evolve resistance. Okay, the

1021
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 3: more often we use a drug, the higher the probability

1022
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 3: that the germ is going to develop resistance. And if

1023
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 3: it develops resistance to a series of antibiotics, we can

1024
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 3: literally run out of drugs to treat that pathogen. There

1025
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 3: will be nothing left in the medicine cabinet to get

1026
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 3: rid of that infection. So this leads to what's called

1027
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 3: the so called superbugs that are resistant to multiple antibiotics.

1028
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 3: That's a big problem. Right now. Sixty five thousand people

1029
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 3: die in the United States each year from these superinfections

1030
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 3: because doctors can only shrug their shoulders and say, we

1031
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 3: have no antibiotics left that will treat this infection. It's

1032
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 3: resistant to all of them, and unfortunately, pharmaceutical companies are

1033
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 3: not investing in new antibiotic research right now. So that's

1034
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 3: a whole other can of worms we can talk about later,

1035
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 3: but anti microbial resistance is one of the number one

1036
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 3: things we want to be aware of when we give

1037
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 3: antibiotics to people. The second problem relates to the microbiome

1038
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 3: that we talked about before, so there's been some suggestive studies.

1039
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 3: I don't want to say that this is decided science,

1040
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 3: but if we give antibiotics to infants and young children

1041
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 3: for prolonged periods of time, that disturbs their microbial environment

1042
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 3: in their gut, and this can lead to negative health

1043
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 3: consequences as they grow up. It's been linked to things

1044
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 3: like allergy, social behavior problems, inflammation, and things like that.

1045
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 3: So giving antibiotics, especially at a young age, can be

1046
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 3: life saving, but you want to make sure there are

1047
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 3: as short term as possible and that you're not giving

1048
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 3: them for a long time, just in case there are

1049
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 3: some long term effects associated with damage that the microbiotic receive.

1050
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 3: This can happen in adults too. I already mentioned earlier.

1051
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 3: People who are on prolonged antibiotics are more susceptible to

1052
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 3: see diff infections, and that's naturally resistant to antibiotics, and

1053
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 3: it takes some really drastic measures in order to treat

1054
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 3: this horrible infection. So those are some of the main

1055
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 3: reasons why we are a little more leery about giving

1056
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 3: antibiotics out liberally. They're life saving medicines, but we want

1057
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 3: to use them only when necessary. Antibiotics do nothing against

1058
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 3: viral infections, for example, So if you go to your

1059
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 3: doctor with your sneezing and sniffling and they don't know

1060
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 3: if it's a virus or a bacterial infection, antibiotics should

1061
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 3: not be given, Okay, it should. They should only be

1062
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 3: given if there's a high probability that the illness is

1063
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 3: in fact caused by a bacteria, Because if it's caused

1064
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 3: by a virus, those antibiotics are not going to do anything.

1065
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 2: Wow, and we're just putting something in our body that

1066
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 2: that our body.

1067
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 3: Doesn't Yeah, you're taking it unnecessarily and what goes into

1068
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 3: our body. Craig also goes into the sewer system, it

1069
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 3: goes into the waste which gets out into the environment.

1070
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 3: So a scientists have sampled many places around the environment,

1071
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 3: at least in the United States, and antibiotics, the ones

1072
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 3: that we make as human beings, are out there everywhere.

1073
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 3: And that's a really sad thing to see because if

1074
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 3: the antibiotics are out there in the environment, then there

1075
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 3: are germs out there that are resistant to those antibiotics,

1076
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 3: and then then when they start to infect animals and humans,

1077
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 3: we have a major problem on our hands.

1078
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: Wow.

1079
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 2: Hey, one of the things that I've spoken about on

1080
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 2: this show, not with you, but with another regular guest.

1081
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 2: We have who's an Australian author and researcher, David Gillespie,

1082
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 2: who's a gun. He's written a book, a bunch of books,

1083
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 2: but he's obsessed with sociopathy, right, with sociopaths. And I

1084
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 2: wanted to ask you and this.

1085
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 3: He should come over here and comment on our election.

1086
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: Oh he's.

1087
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 2: He's a genius, but he talks about toxic box bosses

1088
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 2: and a whole lot of stuff.

1089
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 1: But anyway, so if one end of that kind of spectrum,

1090
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 1: we've got.

1091
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 2: Sociopaths, psychopaths and At the other end of that scale,

1092
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 2: we've got, you know, compassion, people who are predisposed to

1093
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 2: being very kind, very compassionate.

1094
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 1: Do you think that Do you think that there's a

1095
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: genetic component to compassion and what we might broadly call

1096
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: morality and all that kind of stuff. Is that how

1097
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: moral someone is. Do you think that's more.

1098
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 2: About whatever morality means or ethics, or do you think

1099
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 2: that's more about environment and upbringing or is there.

1100
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: A genetic component to that?

1101
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 3: Also, I don't think it's in either. Org there's clearly

1102
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 3: genes that have been implicated in aggressive and violent behavior. Okay,

1103
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 3: this has been shown pretty convincingly in mouse models and

1104
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 3: in some human families where aggression seems to be hereditary.

1105
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 3: Think like the generations of psychopaths that are born in

1106
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 3: certain family lineages that can be traced to genetic defects.

1107
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:01,439
Speaker 3: But what those genetic defects really mean is that there

1108
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 3: is a change in the brain structure or the brain

1109
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 3: chemistry in these individuals that make them abnormal. Okay, but

1110
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 3: there's many, many other reasons that people can snap and

1111
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 3: go psychopathic, which include any sort of damage to the

1112
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 3: brain which can be brought upon by infection, trauma like concussions,

1113
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 3: old age can do it. You know, dementia can sometimes

1114
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 3: make people violent. There's a whole host of things that

1115
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 3: can happen to the brain that have nothing to do

1116
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 3: with genetics, because the brain was perfectly fine before it

1117
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 3: got injured in some way and then it produced psychopathic behavior. So,

1118
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 3: and that's not to say that the environment is not

1119
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 3: important at all, Craig. There's the phenomenon of epigenetics, and

1120
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 3: it's been shown very clearly that children who are exposed

1121
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 3: to adverse childhood experiences or aces as they're known in psychology,

1122
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 3: have a propensity not always, but they have a propensity

1123
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 3: grow up with behavioral problems, you know, antisocial behaviors, sometimes

1124
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 3: violent and aggression. And this has been linked to epigenetic

1125
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,919
Speaker 3: changes that happen because of the environment they grew up in.

1126
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 3: These adverse childhood experiences can modify the gene activity of

1127
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 3: the genes that are responsible for managing stress, and they,

1128
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 3: as a consequence, have lifelong problems managing stressful situations, and

1129
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 3: this can lead to anxiety and even violence later on

1130
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 3: in life. Yeah, I go again, many different variables in

1131
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 3: the equation.

1132
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, it just seems like I meete a

1133
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 2: lot of people who it's like I meant. The reason

1134
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 2: I asked that was I was talking to a mum

1135
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 2: and her daughter the other day, and they're both like

1136
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 2: the nicest people, like just genuinely loving, kind, compassionate.

1137
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: They do all this work and they just don't want anything.

1138
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 2: And I'm like, if I wonder if the daughters like

1139
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 2: the mum because she grew up in that kind of energy,

1140
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 2: in that environment and that mindset, or there's a genetic

1141
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 2: component to that.

1142
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 3: But you know, we should do we will take the

1143
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 3: We should take the intestinal bacteria of hippies and put

1144
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 3: it into a violent criminal and see if that doesn't

1145
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 3: change their behavior.

1146
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 2: Well, if any of you hippies who listened to this,

1147
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 2: and any of you violent also listened to this, want

1148
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 2: to be involved in doctor Bill's study, so I want

1149
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 2: to read you something. The symptoms of the proposed type

1150
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 2: three diabetes condition may include symptoms of dementia, such as

1151
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 2: seen in early Alzheimer's disease. According to the Alzheimer's Disease Association,

1152
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 2: these symptoms include memory lost, blah blah blah. So this

1153
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 2: this this term type three diabetes.

1154
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: Have you heard of that. Is that a thing or

1155
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 1: is that just is that just bullshit?

1156
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:04,959
Speaker 3: To be honest, I've never heard it before. It could

1157
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 3: be a thing. I'm only familiar with Tape one and two.

1158
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, And I don't know that it's Yeah,

1159
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: there's just that they're talking about. I heard somebody the

1160
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: other day, and I.

1161
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 2: Don't think this is solid science, but they were talking

1162
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 2: about how essentially dementia is.

1163
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 1: An expression of or a consequence of type three diabetes. Anyway,

1164
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: I'll do some more research, maybe you'll have a reason.

1165
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 1: We might talk about it next time. My last question

1166
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: for you is this, are some people more genetically inclined

1167
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 1: to enjoy exercise. I've spoken a lot of people over

1168
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 1: the years who go, it's just not my thing. I

1169
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 1: just don't enjoy it. I hate it.

1170
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 2: And I wonder if that's again, if that's truly just

1171
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 2: who they are genetically, that's just that's just part of them,

1172
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 2: or if that's just because I grew up in a

1173
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 2: family where that wasn't encouraged or supported.

1174
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 3: I think it's completely possible that there could be a

1175
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 3: genetic component to someone's inclination to exercise or not. But

1176
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 3: I think what's more likely is there's probably a genetic

1177
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 3: component into the type of exercise that someone might want

1178
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 3: to enjoy. I mean, there's the best study that I

1179
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 3: can think of within this realm would be like the

1180
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 3: genes that govern fast twitching of muscles, and it governs

1181
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 3: the recovery time of muscles. And basically, if you have

1182
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:39,520
Speaker 3: one variation of this gene, you're really good at distance

1183
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 3: or marathon or endurance type sports, but you're really crappy

1184
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 3: at those that require a real sudden burst of energy.

1185
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 3: The other genetic variants the opposite. The other variant says

1186
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 3: you're really good at short bursts of activity, You're a

1187
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 3: great sprinter. You know, you have better abilities with returned

1188
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 3: in terms of strength. That genetic variation is one of

1189
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 3: the clearest cut that I've seen, But that really doesn't

1190
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 3: get to the heart of motivating people to exercise. And

1191
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 3: I think what is happening there is that some people

1192
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 3: might want to fall back on genetics as an excuse,

1193
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 3: and that's the last thing we want anyone to do.

1194
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 3: People need to keep in mind is that exercise can

1195
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 3: be fun. I mean, it can be If you enjoy running,

1196
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 3: get out there and run or walk. If not, try swimming.

1197
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 3: If not, try playing basketball or football. You know there's

1198
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 3: something out there that you're going to enjoy that will

1199
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,720
Speaker 3: give you the exercise that you need. And I know

1200
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:41,720
Speaker 3: very few people who just can't go walk around the

1201
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 3: block a few times, and you can do lots of

1202
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 3: things while you do that. You can listen to the

1203
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 3: U Project podcast during this walk, and what better way

1204
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 3: to exercise and entertain yourself at the same time. And

1205
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 3: if you're not a fan, and that's the new promo,

1206
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 3: but if you're not a fan of Craig Harper, first

1207
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 3: why uh? And then second, turn on a different podcast,

1208
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 3: or listen to a book or some music, whatever, float

1209
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 3: your boat, do whatever it takes. Find a regiment that

1210
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 3: works for you that's going to allow you to get

1211
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,799
Speaker 3: in the exercise you need. It's really important underdersent.

1212
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 2: We'll finish with this as we as the world is

1213
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 2: watching on it. The fucking shit show that is the

1214
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 2: upcoming election.

1215
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:31,240
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts. Who's gonna win?

1216
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 3: Who's going to wing our election? Yeah? I think it's

1217
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:38,719
Speaker 3: our election forty less than forty five days away?

1218
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 1: What is it November five or is that it?

1219
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,639
Speaker 3: Yeah? So it's coming up in early November, and all

1220
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 3: of this will be said and done, you know, a

1221
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,679
Speaker 3: day or two after that, so we'll see what happens.

1222
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 1: Who's going to win.

1223
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 3: Really, it's a really interesting cycle. Oh that kind of prediction.

1224
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 3: I'm really hoping for Harris to tell you the truth.

1225
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 3: If it is Trump, I fear not just for the

1226
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 3: States but for the world.

1227
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, it's it's it's it's entertaining and terrifying to

1228
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 1: look on from afar, but anyway, it's probably more terrifying

1229
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:24,759
Speaker 1: to be in the middle of it over there.

1230
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 3: Well, what surprises me is that roughly half this country

1231
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 3: is perfectly fine with a convicted felon running for office.

1232
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 3: That's just unfathomable to me. I just can't get over that.

1233
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like that's almost like he's superpower. Is

1234
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:47,560
Speaker 2: that he doesn't.

1235
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 3: He's teflon man, He's teflon everything. Everything bounces off of it.

1236
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 3: It just slides off. People just create excuses for this guy.

1237
01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 3: He can't formulate a complete sentence, and then people are saying, well,

1238
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,920
Speaker 3: that's part of his genius, Like, no, that's that's dementia

1239
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:05,759
Speaker 3: talking dude.

1240
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Wow, it's just crazy.

1241
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,640
Speaker 3: The twisted knots that people are putting themselves in so

1242
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 3: they can make excuses for this guy. It's unbelievable to me.

1243
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 2: Conformation biased doc work like we just we live in

1244
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 2: the echo chamber. Don't let the facts get in the way.

1245
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 2: Doctor Bill Sullivan is the author, pleased to meet me, jeans, germs,

1246
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 2: and the curious forces that make us who we are.

1247
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:37,839
Speaker 2: Do you want to point our audience in any other direction?

1248
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 1: Doc?

1249
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 3: Is there anything else? If people want to learn more

1250
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 3: about the book, or follow up on some of the

1251
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 3: writings that I've done, or other appearances on the You

1252
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 3: Project and other podcasts, they can go to my website,

1253
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 3: Author Bill Sullivan dot com. There's also a mailing list

1254
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 3: option you can sign up for if you want to

1255
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 3: sign up for that.

1256
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:00,479
Speaker 2: I think it's time for a new book, bro, I

1257
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 2: think it's five years. I think you're getting a little tardier.

1258
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 2: I think you better just get a hurry along.

1259
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:09,639
Speaker 3: I'm still getting some good mileage out of this one,

1260
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 3: so I don't want to equipse that. Okay, but hey,

1261
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 3: you know, tell the major publishers to come knock on

1262
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 3: my door and we'll see what we can do.

1263
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: A com believe they're not knocking, all right.

1264
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 3: I got ideas, man, I got ideas.

1265
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:28,720
Speaker 1: Of course you do, all right mate.

1266
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 2: We appreciate you, love having you on the show, and yeah,

1267
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 2: I value your contribution greatly.

1268
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 1: Thanks so much again.

1269
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:37,920
Speaker 3: Hey, always a pleasure to look forward to next time.