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Speaker 1: I get a team. I'm here with my favorite scientist,

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Speaker 1: my favorite researcher, doctor Bill Sullivan, all the way across

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Speaker 1: the other side of the world in the States.

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Speaker 2: Hi, mate, how are you doing great? Meat, Good to

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Speaker 2: see you again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good to see you, buddy. We were just talking.

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Speaker 1: I was just telling you, which is probably the world

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Speaker 1: doesn't need to know this, But I have this weird

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Speaker 1: thing that happens everyone, and that is I could be

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Speaker 1: sitting at my computer like I am now, and I'm

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Speaker 1: just chipping away at stuff and just doing it, and

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Speaker 1: all things are kind of just status quo, just humming along.

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Speaker 1: But then when I have to really focus on something,

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Speaker 1: like I was saying to Bill, read an academic paper

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Speaker 1: or something that for me is cognitively challenging, where it's

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Speaker 1: extreme focus concentration, I've got to be fully present. I

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Speaker 1: get hot and I usually have to take off Often

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Speaker 1: I'll turn off the if the heat is on, even

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Speaker 1: in the middle of winter, I'll open the door to

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Speaker 1: my office, I'll take off a layer of clothing. I

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Speaker 1: think maybe a lot of people don't realize that twenty

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Speaker 1: percent of our energy expenditure is the brain built, which

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Speaker 1: is a lot of energy for a tiny little thing

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Speaker 1: sitting in the old skull.

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Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, and that's what they estimate happens with the

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Speaker 2: brain at rest, So when you're using it, it ramps

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Speaker 2: up even higher. So it's probably not surprising that your

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Speaker 2: body's getting a little overheated reading some of those papers.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, if you talk down on you and

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Speaker 2: you're you're down to your underwear, we know what you've

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Speaker 2: been doing, right, You've been reading academic papers.

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Speaker 1: Oh, look at him, he's in his boxes. Clearly he's studying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll go obviously obviously with.

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Speaker 1: That one hundred percent. It is funny though, like, so

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Speaker 1: my body weight is eighty six kilos, what's that eighty

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Speaker 1: four one seventy it's about one ninety pounds, and the

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Speaker 1: brain weighs about one point three or four, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of three pounds ish. That's a very small percentage

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Speaker 1: of our body weight for a very high percentage about

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Speaker 1: energy use, isn't it? That's wire is portionate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, if you think about it, that

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Speaker 2: is the key organ that defines who we are, and

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Speaker 2: it takes a lot of energy just to keep it

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Speaker 2: running at a basal level, you know, just couch potatoes

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Speaker 2: is still consuming twenty percent of your caloric intake. So

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Speaker 2: if you happen to use it beyond couch potato, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're going to burn some more calories, which is kind

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Speaker 2: of fun. You know, you can just sit around thinking

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Speaker 2: and that's kind of an exercise, you know, it.

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Speaker 1: Is it is. I remember a sign outside a gym

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Speaker 1: near where I live and it said something like thinking

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Speaker 1: about going to the gym doesn't burn any calories. You've

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Speaker 1: actually got to turn up or something. And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: technically they're wrong.

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Speaker 2: You know, technically they're wrong. But you're probably not going

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Speaker 2: to lose too much weight or increase your health parameters

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Speaker 2: in a good way just by thinking too much. So

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Speaker 2: I understand marginal game.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Hey, I want to start with something

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Speaker 1: weird today. Now I found this video. You I haven't

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Speaker 1: told you. By the way, we did know prep. I

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Speaker 1: do a little bit of prep everyone, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's solid three four minutes. But Doctor Bill and I

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Speaker 1: literally chat for about one or two minutes before we

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Speaker 1: go live, so he doesn't know this is coming. It's

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Speaker 1: not anything weird, and I don't even know how we

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Speaker 1: get away, but this is this is a video from

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson was talking to a lady, some health expert.

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Speaker 1: I apologize or couldn't find her name, but you'll find

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Speaker 1: it everyone if you want to. So it's Tucker Carlson

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Speaker 1: talking to this lady. I won't tell you what it's about.

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Speaker 1: It only goes for about a minute. Mate. I want

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Speaker 1: you to have a listen, and then I want to

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Speaker 1: have a chat. Is that all right with you?

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Speaker 2: You want me to watch Tucker Carlson. You're gonna say

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Speaker 2: I want you to watch I know, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: it's not about him.

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Speaker 1: I know you're probably a fan, but not a fan.

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Speaker 1: But here we go, here we go.

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Speaker 3: Just give us the being slain condition of health in

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Speaker 3: the nastase absolutely so. Seventy four percent of American adults

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Speaker 3: now are overweight or obese. Close to fifty percent of

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Speaker 3: children are overweight or obese. Seventy seven percent of young

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Speaker 3: adults are unfit to serve in the military because of

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Speaker 3: these issues like obesity.

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Speaker 2: Now, let's talk about diabetes.

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Speaker 3: Fifty percent full fifty percent of American adults have pre

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Speaker 3: diabetes or type two diabetes, which is a fundamental issue

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Speaker 3: in how ourselves contrasts the country Tucker have pre diabetes

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Speaker 3: or type two diabetes, and thirty percent of teens now

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Speaker 3: have pre diabetes. We have eighteen percent of teens with

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Speaker 3: fatty liver disease, a disease that used to be in

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Speaker 3: late stage alcoholics. Cancer rates are skyrocketing and the young

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Speaker 3: and the elderly. Young adult cancers are up seventy nine percent,

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Speaker 3: and this is the first year in American history We're

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Speaker 3: estimated to have over two million cases of cancer. Twenty

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Speaker 3: five percent of American women are on an antidepressant medication.

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Speaker 3: Forty percent of eighteen year olds have a mental health diagnosis.

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Speaker 3: We have the highest infant and maternal mortality rate in

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Speaker 3: the entire developed world. Infertility is at peak rates. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I don't know how this is not front page news.

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Speaker 3: Infertility is going up one percent per year. Sperm counts

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Speaker 3: are going down one percent per year since the nineteen seventies. Now,

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Speaker 3: the thing that people need to understand is that all

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Speaker 3: of these conditions are caused or driven by the exact

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Speaker 3: same thing, which is metabolic dysfunction.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine, I would imagine that Australia is similar,

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Speaker 1: not in terms of absolute numbers, because we have a

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Speaker 1: smaller population, but you know, percentage wise, I wouldn't think

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Speaker 1: we would be drastically different. What did you think about that?

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Speaker 2: Those are some pretty sobering statistics, and obviously I can't

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Speaker 2: fact check all of them, but I can say that

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Speaker 2: I've heard the same trends. You know, clearly our country

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Speaker 2: and many many in the western developed world have problems

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Speaker 2: with obesity, which spiral into problems with diabet There's also

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Speaker 2: I believe what she said about fertility and sperm counts

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Speaker 2: is also true. I've read similar articles to that effect

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Speaker 2: as well, although I don't know that it's completely attributable

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Speaker 2: to metabolic dysfunction. There are many other potential explanations that

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Speaker 2: could factor into changes in fertility rates, some of which

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Speaker 2: have nothing to do with biology at all, but just

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Speaker 2: psychological trends, social trends. But yeah, a lot of what

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Speaker 2: she's saying, those trends, at least I've heard similar statistics.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting that like, we've never been more educated, we've

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Speaker 1: never had more resources, Like we've never been I was

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Speaker 1: going to say, we've never been smarter. That's not true behaviorally,

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Speaker 1: maybe we're stupid, who knows, But yeah, it seems that

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Speaker 1: despite all of our technology and all of our research

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Speaker 1: breakthroughs and everything that's happening in science. As a bunch

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Speaker 1: of people living on a planet, from a physical wellness

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Speaker 1: point of view, we seem to be going backwards, not forward.

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Speaker 2: Stock Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. And it's

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Speaker 2: like we're a victim of our own success. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the human species has been so successful around the world

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Speaker 2: in creating a lifestyle where we have easy access to

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Speaker 2: high caloric foods, which we used to struggle obtaining a

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Speaker 2: long time ago, you know, on the African savannah. So

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Speaker 2: now we have a bounty of those high calorie foods

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Speaker 2: and our brain is wired to lust after them. Okay,

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Speaker 2: our brain is wired to crave them, and they're in abundance.

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Speaker 2: So there's a mismatch between how our brain reacts to

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Speaker 2: these foods and drives our behavior and the environ in

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Speaker 2: which we've currently in which we currently live. And I

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Speaker 2: say we're a victim of our own success, because you know,

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Speaker 2: humanity as a collective species has done a marvelous job

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Speaker 2: utilizing agriculture, domesticating animals, creating foods that can deliver a

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Speaker 2: high amount of the you know, nutrition, but also a

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Speaker 2: high amount of the bad things that we need to

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Speaker 2: get out of our diet if we want to get

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Speaker 2: back to a healthy lifestyle. You also couple that to

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Speaker 2: our intelligence in creating machinery and industries that can do

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Speaker 2: hard labor for us. So the amount of physical labor

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Speaker 2: that most human beings on the planet have to engage

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Speaker 2: in has gone way down, and in fact, most jobs

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Speaker 2: are sedentary. You know, you're just sitting on your butt

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Speaker 2: all day and there's not a lot of time left

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Speaker 2: for exercise and activity, which again, back in All D's

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Speaker 2: on the African savannah, we were always hunting, foraging, moving around.

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Speaker 2: You know, we were more of a nomad species, relocating

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Speaker 2: from place to police. Yeah, long story short, we were

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Speaker 2: getting a lot of physical activity that we simply don't

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Speaker 2: obtain today.

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Speaker 1: I heard something. It's it's probably not an accurate stat

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Speaker 1: but I think it couldn't. It might be somewhere in

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Speaker 1: the ballpark, But the average Australian expends about eight hundred

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Speaker 1: calories a day, which is a lot of calories, but

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Speaker 1: eight hundred calories a day less than fifty years ago.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we're the sit down generation like we've

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Speaker 1: never in the history of our species, we've never sat

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Speaker 1: more than we currently sit because you know, I would

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Speaker 1: assume ninety percent of jobs are done seated or I

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Speaker 1: don't know what percentage, but a lot, you know. So

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Speaker 1: it's not only our we're eating more. So the volume

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Speaker 1: is up, the quality of food depending on you know

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Speaker 1: who and where, but the quality of food arguably is

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Speaker 1: down or the crap, you know, more more processed food,

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Speaker 1: less nutritional value, all of those things. But yeah, overall,

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Speaker 1: we just don't like incidental and occupational activity as we

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Speaker 1: call us ex sized scientists call it incidental and occupational

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Speaker 1: activity is down. So in general terms, we just don't

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Speaker 1: move as much as we used to move fifty years ago,

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Speaker 1: one hundred years ago, and especially hundreds of years ago,

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Speaker 1: when you know you would think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: moved a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and then you know that's that's good news

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Speaker 2: bad news. I mean, we know these are the problems

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Speaker 2: that are leading to obesity and diabetes. We know it's

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Speaker 2: poor diet, we know it's not enough exercise, and you

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Speaker 2: know we should throw stress into that equation too. Remarkably,

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Speaker 2: it goes back to the paradise you alluded to earlier.

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Speaker 2: Craig in that we live in a tremendously wonderful time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of our basic needs are met. Okay,

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Speaker 2: even if you don't do a great deal of work

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Speaker 2: or make a lot of money, you can live a

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Speaker 2: pretty comfortable lifestyle. But we generate an extraordinary amount of

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Speaker 2: unnecessary stress and pressure and anxiety, and I think that

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Speaker 2: feeds back into making many of us miserable, which drives

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Speaker 2: appetite and discourages people from wanting to move around and exercise.

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Speaker 2: So I think, ironically we have a higher level of

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Speaker 2: stress than maybe our evolutionary ancestors even did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I often think this. Imagine going back

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Speaker 1: a couple of hundred years and just like being there

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Speaker 1: for a day and you say, guess what. In the future,

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Speaker 1: you're just gonna like, if you're hot, you're just going

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Speaker 1: to push a button. And I'll go, what's a button?

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Speaker 1: We have to explain that you're going to push a

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Speaker 1: button on a wall and the room's going to get cool,

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Speaker 1: and then when you're cold, you push another button, then

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Speaker 1: the room will get warm. And by the way, you're

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Speaker 1: just going to have this thing where it's going to

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Speaker 1: have all this food in it that's fresh all the

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Speaker 1: time and it keeps it cool. And then you're going

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Speaker 1: to have this other thing that you can cook food

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Speaker 1: in about ninety seconds. It's called a microwave ove. And and

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Speaker 1: then you're going to have this thing you can just

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Speaker 1: turn and cold fresh water comes out like as much

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Speaker 1: as you want. Like they'd be like, that's bullshit, that's

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Speaker 1: or you know, you know what.

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Speaker 2: Would happen to you if you were to go back

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Speaker 2: to the middle you would be burned at the steak

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Speaker 2: as a heretic and loon. That's what you would be,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's what they would do to you. Well,

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Speaker 2: Craig on the barbie.

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Speaker 1: But even imagine like when I was born, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the sixties. Imagine if you said, in the not

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Speaker 1: too distant future, you're going to have you know, that

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Speaker 1: telephone on the wall with the bloody rotary do siling system. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have a phone in your pocket that's

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Speaker 1: you know, like the size of a pack of cigarettes

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Speaker 1: or smaller, because that's what they had in their pocket

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Speaker 1: in those days. And not only not only will you

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Speaker 1: be able to talk to anyone anywhere in the world,

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Speaker 1: it'll also basically have more information than you know all

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Speaker 1: the Encyclopedia Britannicas, which were also big in the sixties,

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Speaker 1: put together times a billion in your pocket and you

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Speaker 1: can just ask it a question and it will tell

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Speaker 1: you the answer to any like a game. And it's

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Speaker 1: not like that was a thousand years ago, that was

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Speaker 1: last week. In terms of the evolutionary you know timeline.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy to think about, and it would be

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Speaker 2: a fun experiment to be able to go back and

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Speaker 2: see what those individuals thought. I mean, you could even

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Speaker 2: like go back in time to the Middle Ages and see,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're not feeling well, not because of bad

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Speaker 2: error or because of demons or you know, gods that

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Speaker 2: are angry at you, it's because of this tiny germ. Oh,

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Speaker 2: we'll show it to me. Well, we need a microscope

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Speaker 2: to see it. What's a microscope? And so we're going

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Speaker 2: to have medicines one day that can get rid of

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Speaker 2: these germs and make people well. And yeah, they'll just

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Speaker 2: be looking at you like you're crazy. And it makes

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Speaker 2: you think, twenty forty one hundred years from now, what

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Speaker 2: are humans going to come up with that we can't

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Speaker 2: even imagine today. Yeah, you know, you know, I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: we last that long, what are they going to come

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Speaker 2: up with that'll just blow us away? It's it's fun

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Speaker 2: to philosophize and think about those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: And it's amazing. Like we look back at the science

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Speaker 1: in inverted commas from you know, twenty thirty forty years ago,

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Speaker 1: and some of it was solid and some of it

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Speaker 1: were like, how on earth? How on earth? You know?

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Speaker 1: Even for example, with the food pyramid is one that

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Speaker 1: I speak about too much, but you know, that was absolute,

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Speaker 1: that was break groundbreaking research and we found out that

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Speaker 1: it isn't and it's bullshit, but you know, but at

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Speaker 1: the time, everyone was like, this is the way to eat.

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Speaker 1: Low fat eating equals low fat humans, and off we go.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it makes you wonder in fifty years what

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Speaker 1: they're going to talk about that was science in inverted

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Speaker 1: commas in twenty twenty four, That to them will be laughable.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm going to make a prediction because I

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Speaker 2: won't be here to verify it or not. I won't

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Speaker 2: care if I'm right or wrong, but I'll make a

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Speaker 2: prediction that we are obsessed way too much with the

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Speaker 2: individual components of of you know, what types of bats

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Speaker 2: and how much sugar and all this other stuff that

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Speaker 2: are in foods. We're too obsessed with that. And you know,

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Speaker 2: to an extent, we do need to pay attention to

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Speaker 2: how much sugar, salt, and fat are in there. But

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Speaker 2: what that misses, What that misses or all the chemicals

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Speaker 2: that are put into food, all these preserved and all

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Speaker 2: these other chemicals that we have no idea what they

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Speaker 2: might be doing in our body, either alone or in combination,

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Speaker 2: because they're not sufficiently tested before they're utilized in food products.

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Speaker 2: Europe is a little better about this, and lo and behold, Craig.

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Speaker 2: They don't have a huge obesity problem.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I just came back from a from a tour of

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Speaker 2: the Mediterranean, Okay, and it's striking the difference of how

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Speaker 2: thin people are, how lean people are in general over

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Speaker 2: there compared to almost anywhere you put yourself into in America.

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Speaker 2: There's it's a striking difference. But one thing that is

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Speaker 2: not different when you go to the Mediterranean, it is

294
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Speaker 2: full of cafes, pastries, canola's, gelato. There's all kinds of sweets, pastas, carbs, everything. Right,

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Speaker 2: The diet doesn't strike me as being ridiculously different. Maybe

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Speaker 2: the portions are smaller, and there's there's more fruits and

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Speaker 2: vegetables and stuff. But the thing that struck me was

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Speaker 2: the freshness of the foods. Okay, people like go out

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Speaker 2: to the market and or their gardens and grab what

300
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Speaker 2: they want to eat right then and there, right off

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Speaker 2: the vine, so to speak. Okay, it's all fresh. There's

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Speaker 2: no chemicals, there's no preservatives, and maybe the stuff that

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Speaker 2: we're putting into food in order to process it or

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Speaker 2: ultra process it, maybe those are the real culprits. And

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Speaker 2: fifty years from now, my prediction is that we are

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Speaker 2: going to sort some of that out and we're going

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Speaker 2: to look back and say, oh, why were we so

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Speaker 2: obsessed with a little too much sugar? It was these

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Speaker 2: chemicals that were making everybody so large.

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Speaker 1: That is a very very interesting hypothesis. Stock I don't

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Speaker 1: disagree with you. And you know, further to that, when

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Speaker 1: you have I always talk to people about you know,

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Speaker 1: packaging and food labeling. And you know what's written on

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Speaker 1: the front of the box or the can or the

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Speaker 1: packet is advertising. And the tiny little box, the tiny

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Speaker 1: little square down the bottom of the back of the

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Speaker 1: package with the teeny tiny writing that you really, I

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Speaker 1: can't read it because my eyes are shit and I'm old.

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Speaker 1: But there's a reason that it's hidden away down the

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Speaker 1: bottom at the back, and there's a reason that the

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Speaker 1: writing is so small, and there's a reason that they're

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Speaker 1: trying to make it is as obscure as possible, because

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to pay attention to that, you know.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny when you look at something like and

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Speaker 1: this is ironic, but a protein bar, you go, I

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Speaker 1: might have a protein bar that's better than a Mars baruck.

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Speaker 1: Probably not. I mean some of them, like some of

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Speaker 1: those protein bars in inverted commas, which sell like hotcakes

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Speaker 1: in Australia because ironically hotcakes, we think, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: a healthy option. Some of them have got fifty ingredients

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Speaker 1: and forty of the ingredients you don't know what they are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And we have the same trends over here, people

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Speaker 2: gobbling these things down like their candy, and they're marketed

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Speaker 2: as if they're not candy. Yeah, you know, and it's

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Speaker 2: kind of goofy to me. I think one of the

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Speaker 2: manufacturers of these bars got sued because they were making

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Speaker 2: health cleans, when in fact they were just a glorified

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Speaker 2: candy bar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: it is in the States, but there's a I think

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Speaker 1: it's called the Heart Foundation in Australia where you can

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Speaker 1: buy what's called a healthy Heart tick or something like that.

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Speaker 1: So companies pay. It's all about just a transaction to

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Speaker 1: get this tick of approval from the Heart Foundation on

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Speaker 1: the front of their product. And it doesn't it's not

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Speaker 1: because it meets some criteria. I could be wrong on this,

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Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure. Maybe it's got to meet some

348
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Speaker 1: very low level criteria. But for the most part, my

349
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:06,439
Speaker 1: understanding is it's something that companies pay for, which is

350
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Speaker 1: good for the Heart Foundation, I guess, because it gives

351
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Speaker 1: them money in the bank. But it seemed to be

352
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Speaker 1: some kind of, you know, brand improving kind of strategy.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that like talking about the past and

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Speaker 1: the now. I always feel like we have become disconnected

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Speaker 1: from the wisdom of our body. And I know that

356
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 1: sounds fluffy, but you know, like our body is so

357
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 1: smart now. Bio is a biofeedback system that's always talking

358
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Speaker 1: to us. But you know, in the days of instant

359
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:47,239
Speaker 1: gratification and fast food and basically dopamine at will, you know,

360
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Speaker 1: or dopamine providers of sorts, you know, like where we

361
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Speaker 1: can just push that button and get a quick fix.

362
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Speaker 1: I feel like we've disconnected from our body in a way.

363
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Speaker 2: We are totally disconnected. There's a scientific term for these phenomenon,

364
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Speaker 2: and it's called evolutionary mismatch, and it's basically that we

365
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 2: are not born for this time. We are not born

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Speaker 2: for the modern environment that we have created. We are

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Speaker 2: born to literally be hunters and gatherers and small tribes

368
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Speaker 2: on the African savannah. That's what we've evolved to be

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Speaker 2: for tens of millions of years. So that is deeply,

370
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Speaker 2: deeply wired into our brain and that's just how things are,

371
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Speaker 2: that's our history. But you put us in. You put

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Speaker 2: an animal like that into the modern world where it's

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Speaker 2: a veritable candy land and you don't have to move

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Speaker 2: around as much. You know, you sit and watch television

375
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 2: passively for hours. You have an animal that is ill

376
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Speaker 2: suited for its environment, and there's negative health consequences that

377
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 2: start to accumulate over time with that lifestyle. And it's

378
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 2: a catch twenty two with our brain because back in

379
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 2: our old evolutionary days, you know, millions of years ago,

380
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Speaker 2: when it was hard to come by something sweet or

381
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 2: something fatty, our brain would go absolutely nuts when it

382
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 2: finally tasted something that had something that had a sweet

383
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 2: flavor or a fatty flavor, it would just go nuts.

384
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,719
Speaker 2: Dopamine would be surging because it's a substantial reward, and

385
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: it would induce us to move our bodies to go

386
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 2: find those foods as much as we can. But they

387
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: were quite rare, so they were they were rare treats.

388
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Speaker 2: But now we can just sit and hit the dopamine

389
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Speaker 2: button all day long, popping in crisp after crisp, you know,

390
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 2: candy bar after candy bar, and you know that our

391
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 2: body was not built to handle that level of sugar, fat,

392
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: and salt. It just simply is not. And then you

393
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 2: couple that on top of the fact that many of these,

394
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 2: you know, these these candies and potato chips and pretzels

395
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 2: and so on, are highly processed foods with all sorts

396
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: of other chemicals added into that. You just have an

397
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 2: incredibly artificial nutritional source that our body has not evolved

398
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:17,719
Speaker 2: to metabolize properly. Okay, it's evolved to enjoy the taste

399
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 2: and the texture, but it's not evolved to translate it

400
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 2: into something nutritionally valuable.

401
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think like one of the challenges is,

402
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: you know that you can push the dopamine button and

403
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: go all right, I'm going to eat the cake, or

404
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to eat the candy bar, or I'm gonna

405
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: eat the crisps, or I'm going to eat whatever it

406
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: is that thing that while simultaneously being in a body

407
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: that isn't working well, you know, and simultaneously thinking I

408
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,239
Speaker 1: want to get in shape. I want to change my

409
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: body composition, lose fat, lose weight, be healthier, have more energy,

410
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: have more function, improve my immune system, create a longer

411
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 1: health span, all that stuff. But for the moment, I'm

412
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: going to eat this cake because when I eat this cake,

413
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: I get instant gratification. But if I don't eat the cake,

414
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: then I don't get instant transformation. And so I'll eat

415
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: the cake today, but I'll start tomorrow. And that becomes

416
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: a twenty year in a dialogue. And now I'm fifty

417
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: two and now I'm morbidly obese. My back hurts, I've

418
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 1: got high blood pressure, I'm diabetic, and I've almost been

419
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: changing my operating system since I was thirty, and that

420
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: is I think that is the hard thing about delaying

421
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: gratification is that they're you know, the point of the

422
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: point is that we love that fix that whatever right now,

423
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: and when we say no, you just left in this

424
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: kind of space of well, this is not much fun.

425
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: And the worst thing I've put that in inverted commas

426
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: is that you've got to have quite a lot of

427
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: those days to actually see real shift, and then you've

428
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: got a string years together to actually change your you know,

429
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: your hardwired operating system. And this is you know, when

430
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: you've been eating and thinking and behaving and socializing and

431
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: living a certain way for twenty five years, you're not

432
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: going to fix that by next Tuesday. You know.

433
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: No, it's a step wise process and it's not something

434
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: This is a misconception that a lot of people have,

435
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: and that's why fad diets are so popular. Everybody's looking

436
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 2: for a quick fix, just like you know, the satisfaction

437
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: you get from a piece of cake. They want to

438
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: get a quick fix out of a dietary program. And

439
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 2: that's not going to happen. That's not how these things work. Yes,

440
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 2: these are more like lifelong changes. Lifestyle changes. You have

441
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: to program your brain to resist instant gratification, keeping in

442
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 2: mind the long term goal and the long term satisfaction

443
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: that will come with a healthier you know, with a

444
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 2: healthier body. So it's hard for human beings to think

445
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: like that because again we're not evolutionarily designed to think

446
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 2: in the long term. Our lives used to be much shorter, okay,

447
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: and resources were much more scarce, so we operated on

448
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: a very here and now level okay. And again that

449
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 2: kind of behavior is deeply ingrained into our brain. It's

450
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: deeply hardwired there. So you really do have to put

451
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: forth substantial effort. And that's why this is not easy. Crazy.

452
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: This is why so many people fail when they try.

453
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: Is you have to put forth a daily effort to

454
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: try to resist the instant gratification, keeping in mind the

455
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: real prize is down the road, and it's full of

456
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 2: hurdles to get there, but it's worth getting there.

457
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I my listeners know this, but don't after you know,

458
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: at doc, But I spent. I always had food issues

459
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: when I was a kid because I was a fat

460
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: kid and I had everything that wasn't niled down. And

461
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: then I got in shape, lean strong, functional, and then

462
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: towards my late twenties and early thirties, I had five businesses.

463
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: Life was good, making lots go, you know, from the

464
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: outside looking in, everything was good. But my volatile relationship

465
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: with food kind of re emerged and I started to

466
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: just I'll have a little bit of this, little bit

467
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: of that, and that won't hurt you know, one piece

468
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: won't kill me, that kind of idea, and of course

469
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 1: one piece won't literally kill you generally. But then I

470
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: looked up a minute later, which was probably a year later,

471
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: and I was basically fat again. And I remember, so

472
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: here I am. I'm this guy who's got quite a

473
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 1: high profile in Australian fitness and workshops and seminars all

474
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: around the country. I'm writing for magazines and news. I'm

475
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: doing all this stuff and I'm lying. I'm lying to

476
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: people about what I do, you know, And I'm wearing

477
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: bigger and baggier workout so people won't know. Of course

478
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: they won't. No, nobody could possibly tell, because these are

479
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: magic clothes right right right Like for me, I don't

480
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: know about you, but for me, like food was it

481
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: really took until I was and even though I knew

482
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: what to do. I had pretty good understanding, I was

483
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: pretty educated all that. For me, it just took, I

484
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: would say, until I was about thirty five before I

485
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: got I would say almost the analogy would be clean

486
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: and sober. Do you know what I mean? Where I

487
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: wasn't pushing itself or others. Took me a long time.

488
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: I've heard psychologists talk in those terms about food addiction

489
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: and john food addiction, treating it as such and people

490
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: who can finally modify their habits as kind of a

491
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: sobering up. I've heard that before. So it's a pretty

492
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: apt analogy, I would say. And there's even been studies

493
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: that show that sugar lates up to seeing parts of

494
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: your brain cocaine will, So there are some parallels there.

495
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: And everyone is well aware how hard it is to

496
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: break addiction with substances like cocaine or alcohol. But what

497
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: we don't appreciate very much is it's just as hard

498
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: in many cases to break those addictions to sugar, fat,

499
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: and salt as well. I applaud you for doing it,

500
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 2: and I know a lot of people struggle with it because,

501
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: like I said, we are evolutionarily hardwired to go after

502
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: those types of foods so we're basically trying to put

503
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: a break on the human spirit itself. We're trying to

504
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: put a break on innate, impulsive actions, and that's really

505
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: difficult to do, but it can be done. And what

506
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: I found, you know, as I started to eat better

507
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: and because you know, as you get older, your metabolism

508
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: isn't what it used to be, and the same foods

509
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: that you put into you start to pack on pounds

510
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: rather than just magically, you know, disappear. So I noticed

511
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: in my twenties I was gaining weight for like the

512
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: first time in my life, but my diet wasn't changing much.

513
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: But since my metabolism was changing because of age and

514
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: I was a little more sedentary in those days, I

515
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: had to make some changes in order to stay as

516
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: lean as I used to be. And I wanted to

517
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: do that because in my brain I knew it was healthy.

518
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: You know, I'm here working in biomedical sciences, so I

519
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: have to toe that line, right, you know, I have

520
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: to practice what I preach, kind of like your story

521
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: was alluding to. So I made those changes, and they

522
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: were really difficult. You know, breaking habits and forming new ones.

523
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: It's serious business, but it can be done. And the

524
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: good news is that, at least in my experience, as

525
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: you start to eat healthier and as you start to

526
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: move around more and get more exercise, these sorts of

527
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: activities become addictive as well. So you're trading off an

528
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: addiction for junk food for an addiction with healthy behavior. Okay.

529
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 2: I used to be addicted to mountain dew, doctor pepper,

530
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: these sodas, okay, these are these sugar waters. I made

531
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: a clean cold turkey break from those after realizing It's

532
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: hard for me to fathom that. When I was younger,

533
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: I did not appreciate how much sugar was in a

534
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: single can of pop or soda. And once I learned that,

535
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: once someone told me that, I'm like, holy crap, I

536
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: really got to knock this stuff off. This is an

537
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: easy way to start losing weight. Okay, So I quit

538
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: them cold turkey. I just started drinking water. You know,

539
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: water is plenty of refreshing for me. That was one

540
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: of the biggest changes I saw. You know, in my

541
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: history of dealing with weight issues, is that just dropping

542
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: soda out of your life can work. Wonders. But then

543
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, get addicted to all sorts of teas,

544
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: you know, and you know there's other alternatives out there

545
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: that you can find and enjoy with as much you know,

546
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: passion as you did the other products. The big difference

547
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: is they're healthier for you.

548
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things I used to do doc

549
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: when I owned gyms and I did you know my

550
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: I was at the cold face of personal training forever.

551
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: And when people would come in, we'd do an assessment,

552
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: which would be, you know, there'd be a bit of

553
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: formal stuff, a bit of hesting per se, you know,

554
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: strength and fitness, and a few bits and pieces, but

555
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: we'd have a really good chat and I would say

556
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: to people. People would say, no, I've got to I

557
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: eat too much, you know, I moved too little, all

558
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I'd say, take me through

559
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: a typical day of what you put in your body.

560
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: And they'd tell me breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And I'd go, yeah,

561
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: but tell me about all the stuff you drink. And

562
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: what was interesting was a bigger percentage of people than

563
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: you might imagine drink about a thousand calories a day

564
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: on top of their meals.

565
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: Right, they make coffees over here that are almost a

566
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 2: thousand calories in one serving. It's insane.

567
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what people don't realize. So I used

568
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: to say to people, what we're going to do, Like

569
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: if obviously this would be a collaboration, but I'd say,

570
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: why don't we do this, Why don't we just cut

571
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: out liquid calories for one month, Let's try that. Let's

572
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: leave your food as it is, because my experience is

573
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: the more things you try and change the more drastically,

574
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: the less likely people are to maintain it over any

575
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: length of time. Right, So, or we might even say,

576
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: you know, like have one flat white or one latte

577
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: a day or whatever it is, but we go from

578
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: a thousand calories to two hundred calories of liquid. So

579
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: that's eight hundred calories. You know, over thirty days is

580
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: twenty four thousand calories we're cutting out without eating any

581
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: less food. Just that one little hack or that one

582
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: little protocol would absolutely create real change, you know, Like

583
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be this overwhelming kind of massive

584
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: global shift in your operating system. It might just be like, oh,

585
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, well, let's say you have one or two

586
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: wines a night, and you have three coffees a day,

587
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: and you have fruit juice in the morning, and then

588
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 1: you have phil cream milk on your cereal and there's

589
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: a thousand calories. Oh, there's more than a thousand calories.

590
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: So so I like that approach though, because it's kind

591
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: of like taking baby steps. That approach, to me is

592
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: pretty ingenious, and it's a good way to kind of

593
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: get people to wade into the water of a healthy

594
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 2: lifestyle because you're allowing them to continue to eat as

595
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: they normally would, but you're strategically looking at the beverage factor,

596
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: which is underappreciated and offmost people's radars. They don't realize

597
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: how many calories are in the sodas and some of

598
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 2: these you know, you know, these lattes and cappuccinos and

599
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: stuff or you know, or milkshakes or whatever. Get those

600
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 2: out of your life and maybe walk fifteen twenty minutes

601
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 2: a day. You'll see a pretty revolutionary change just with

602
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: those small modifications.

603
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: One of the things that I think, I totally agree.

604
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: One of the things I think that a lot of

605
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: I can only talk from my industry or the industry

606
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: that I came from, which is the fitness industry, is

607
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: because a lot of people who work in the fitness

608
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: industry are of course fit, strong, healthy, functional, and they

609
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: not all of them, but a lot of them have

610
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: a certain way of eating, and you know, by typical standards.

611
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: You know. It's like I put up a post yesterday

612
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: on Instagram which is essentially a reflection of I didn't

613
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: intend to read this, I'm just going to bring it

614
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: up right now, which is not very and so one

615
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: of the things that I've been told a thousand times

616
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: is but you've got to have a life, right And

617
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: so people are inferring, you know, and I understand it

618
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: doesn't make I completely understand why they say it, because

619
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: when they look at my life through their lens, I'm

620
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: the most boring person on the planet. I'm clearly malnourished,

621
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: I clearly have no fun I have no you know,

622
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 1: And so I understand this. But one of the things

623
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: that trainers do sometimes also is they look at the

624
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: client through their window and their lens and they try

625
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: to take the client from this operating system at one

626
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: end of the scale to the other end of the

627
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: scale in a week, and it just never.

628
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: Works because you too much as you've just got to you.

629
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: Know what, this is a multi dimensional challenge. This is psychological, emotional, sociological, behavioral, physiological.

630
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: You know, there are so many variables here. And what

631
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: you're trying to do is work with Sally or John

632
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: that for twenty five years have kind of been in

633
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: this reality and now you're taking them over to Disneyland

634
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: and going you've got to live here.

635
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 2: Now.

636
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work like that. So being able to

637
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: I mean, this is something that people roll their eyes at,

638
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: but I remember I worked with a guy who used

639
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: to smoke. This is not a lie over one hundred

640
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: cigarettes a day. So basically from when he woke up

641
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: to when he went to bed and he came to

642
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: me and like, clearly so many things to deal with.

643
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: But and so our goal in the first week, our

644
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 1: goal was to smoke fifty cigarettes a day. And people

645
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: are like, how on earth are you okay with that

646
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: as a goal. I'm like, that is a smart goal,

647
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: you know why, because that's half like me setting him

648
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: a goal of zero or five. He's not going to

649
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: do it. He's not going to do it.

650
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you need to frame it in terms of like

651
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 2: a percentage. They say, I got this person to cut

652
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: back fifty percent. That way, they're not here in the

653
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: raw numbers, you know, but when you hear is that

654
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 2: someone cut their habit in half, that's really admirable, you know, yeah,

655
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: cut it in half again, and so on, and you

656
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: know it's a reasonable approach. I think you're right. You know,

657
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: it's a really good point that you raise in that

658
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: there's no one stop shop for everybody when it comes

659
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 2: to changing their habits. You really do have to factor

660
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: in their holistic life. You know, what sort of experiences

661
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: have they had to have led them to their current behaviors,

662
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 2: and you have to work through those channels and see

663
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,959
Speaker 2: things through their eyes in order to design the most

664
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 2: ideal program that's going to be effective in modifying behavior.

665
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, spirit of mind, doc, trying to understand someone else's

666
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: bog of right now? All right, I've got a few

667
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: I've got a few Bill Sullivan questions for you. Firstly,

668
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: I read that I read that Adam Alter wrote basically

669
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: a testimony on your your book. So, doctor Bill's book,

670
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of it, you should by now

671
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: please to meet me. Jean's germs and the curious forces

672
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: that make us who we are. But I read Adam

673
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: Alter's book Drunk Tank Pink, I must have been ten

674
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: years ago or eight or seven years ago. A long

675
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: time ago now, but what a great book. Great book,

676
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: and can you have you read it? Have you read it?

677
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: Like you It was about eight years ago or so

678
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 2: when it first came out.

679
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I remember the story that he tells doc

680
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: of and maybe you can explain how this works. Right.

681
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: So one of the things that they there was a

682
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: a police station and they had these holding cells basically

683
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: for drunk people. And so it was in this area

684
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: I forget where it was, but really violent people and

685
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: they'd put all these blokes essentially men in these holding

686
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: cells overnight and there'd be punch ons and violence. It

687
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: was one of the most violent, you know, kind of

688
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: places in the States, or holding cells in any way.

689
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 1: They they found out that through a range of different things,

690
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: that if they painted the holding cells pink, that it

691
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: completely changed the behavior of the prisoners or the people

692
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: being held, and it totally affected their nervous system the

693
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: way they communicated that the violence almost went to zero. Like,

694
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 1: what an amazing thing to think that having like being

695
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: basically in a pink room versus a gray room is

696
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: going to change behavior that much.

697
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of stuff that have looked at

698
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: the behavioral effects of responding to different colors. You know,

699
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: there's been some studies that show if a boxer has

700
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: on red trunks, he tends to be perceived as much

701
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: more aggressive than say a boxer who's wearing neutral or

702
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: white trunks.

703
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: Wow.

704
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 2: There's been also studies and pharmaceutical companies do this where

705
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: they you know, you know how pills get their colors.

706
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: It's marketing. They give different colored pills to different people.

707
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: And I forget some of the specifics, but like a

708
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 2: yellow pill works fantastically better as an antidepressive depressant than

709
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 2: an antidepressant that had no color or some kind of

710
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: neutral color. But if you make it yellow, it seems

711
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: to work even better. So it's like there's a placebo

712
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: effect accompanying some of these drugs just because of the

713
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: color of the pill. It's pretty remarkable. And people, if

714
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 2: you want them to be more urgent, more productive, you

715
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 2: put them in a red room as opposed to like

716
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 2: a green room, because red has a more of an

717
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: urgency about it, and people seem to work faster and

718
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 2: harder in a red room and in a green room

719
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: they're kind of more chill, but they can get more creative.

720
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: So it's really interesting how those colors which we're not

721
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: even thinking about, right, it's not on our conscious radar,

722
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 2: but it is somehow affecting us at a subconscious level,

723
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 2: and it's percolating up to change our behavior.

724
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: It's amazing the amount of different stimulile variables that can

725
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 1: impact your psychological and or emotional system without you knowing

726
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: or without you being super conscious in the moment. Like,

727
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 1: I'm very affected by music, and the wrong music can

728
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: make me agitated, and the right music, when I say

729
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: right music for me can just literally make me happy.

730
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: Like well, as someone who in a is someone who

731
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: works in a gym, you have to know that music

732
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: can make a really big difference. If you're playing air

733
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 2: supply in the background, you're not going to have a

734
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: great workout.

735
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: Oh loud of love, God, how do you know is supply?

736
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: How old are you?

737
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: Well? How you from Australia?

738
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, dude. Well you're just got to mention

739
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: the begs and in excess and.

740
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 2: There you know, But like you put on you put

741
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: on survivors ay the Tiger, and it's a different story. Right,

742
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: you're lifting twice as much as you used to be

743
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: able to do when you were hearing lost, lost in

744
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 2: Love or whatever their whatever air supplies, uh songs.

745
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: You're not helping You're not helping your brand by knowing that.

746
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: I'm just going to say you that, I tell you that. Hey. So,

747
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: one of the pieces of advice that I got it's

748
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: not going to surprise you growing up, was that you

749
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: need to control your emotions. My question is is that possible?

750
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: Can we control our emotions or do we just respond

751
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: to them? Or do our emotions control us? Or is

752
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: there a better question?

753
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: Well, there's certainly a lot of variability, But let me

754
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: ask you, do you think you control your emotions better

755
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 2: than when you were two years old?

756
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: But most people that'd say, yes, I know you, I do, Yes,

757
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: I do.

758
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, then we can control our emotions. We certainly can.

759
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: So we have that capacity. Is it easy? No, No,

760
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 2: it's not. Emotions are primal. They surge within us beyond

761
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 2: our control. Okay. We can't control what emotions we feel,

762
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,479
Speaker 2: can't really control what sort of thoughts pop into our mind.

763
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: But we can put a space in between those sensations

764
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: that we feel and what we're going to do about them. Okay.

765
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 2: That's what makes us human is we can insert this space,

766
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: this pause in between our emotions and our actions, and

767
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: we can take the time to evaluate the emotion and

768
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: produce the corresponding reaction that is appropriate to it. Okay.

769
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 2: The classic example is that and we're by we're strongly

770
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 2: biased towards paying attention to our negative emotions. I think

771
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: everyone is pretty aware of that. But that's a survival mechanism.

772
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: Because if you're walking through the woods and you hear

773
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: rustling in the bushes, okay, your first instinct is probably like, oh,

774
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: this is an animal or a snake or something out

775
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: to get me, and you might you might run and

776
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: take off, but it could have just been the wind. Okay.

777
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 2: So again, the beauty of being human is that we

778
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: hear these noises, these suspicious noises, we can evaluate that

779
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: emotion in the context of the situation and see if

780
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 2: it's a real threat or not. If it's a threat,

781
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 2: we'll run. If it's not, we can deal with it

782
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: more rationally.

783
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: Yes.

784
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: So it's just like the old stoic philosophers used to say,

785
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with emotions. It's natural to feel them.

786
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: You shouldn't feel guilty or ashamed for feeling those emotions,

787
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: but you are responsible for the behavior that was inspired

788
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 2: by those emotions, and you have time, you have a

789
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: space that you can put in there to evaluate the

790
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 2: emotion and see what the appropriate response is going to be.

791
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: Do you think this is a very personal question, but

792
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: do you think that you've gotten more courageous or more

793
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: fearful as you've gotten older, or or neither you kind

794
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: of status quo?

795
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 2: I think it probably depends a lot on the situation, right.

796
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: You know, there are some things that I think I'm

797
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 2: probably much more braver about, and then there's other things

798
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: that I'm still very cautious about. So so yeah, it

799
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 2: really depends on the nature of the specific situation. I

800
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: would see.

801
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: So I watched you on a video and you're on

802
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 1: You're on television, and you said, if you take intestinal

803
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: bacteria from a brave mouse and you put it in

804
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: a shy mouse, then the shy mouse becomes braver and

805
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: less fearful. I think something like.

806
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 2: One of it's one of my favorite experiments. I mean

807
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: what I mean, what what It's crazy, isn't it?

808
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: And is that? I mean? I know, can we could

809
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: we make a race of super soldiers just by transplanting

810
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 1: intestinal bacteria from great people.

811
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 2: I would I would, I would guess no, because in

812
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: these studies, and you describe the study quite well, you know,

813
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 2: mice have different personalities. Different strains of mice have different personalities.

814
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 2: Some are more timid and some take greater risks. And

815
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: just as you said, if you take the intestinal bacteria

816
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: from the brave mouse and put it into the cowardly mouse,

817
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: that cowardly mouse starts to become a little more brave.

818
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: And we see these types of behavioral changes almost every

819
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 2: time we do these sorts of intestinal microbiota transplant experiments. Okay,

820
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: here's one that has been done in humans, and this

821
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: one will blow your mind too. There are people who

822
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 2: have certain type of cancer and they're all treated with

823
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 2: the same type of chemotherapy. Some people respond to it,

824
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: some people don't. But if you take the bacteria from

825
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: the people who respond positively to the key chemotherapeutic treatment

826
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 2: put it into the patients that aren't responding to it,

827
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 2: those patients suddenly respond to the chemotherapy. Wow is crazy.

828
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 2: So what this is telling us is there's something that

829
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 2: the trillions of different bacteria in our guts are producing

830
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: a metabolite of some kind, you know, basically a chemical

831
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: at the end of the day that is bestowing upon us,

832
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 2: you know, this magical property that we previously didn't have.

833
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 2: And it can work in bad ways too. You know,

834
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 2: there's there's people who have undergone fecal transplantation to actually

835
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 2: treat a superinfection called sea diff. Okay, this is a

836
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: colitis infection that many people who are on prolonged antibiotics

837
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 2: suffer from, and this bacterial species called sea diff is

838
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 2: naturally resistant to most antibiotics. What has what can cure

839
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: ninety five percent of those cases is if you take

840
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 2: intestinal bacteria from a healthy person put it into that

841
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: person with the superinfection, superinfection has gone almost immediately. It's

842
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: crazy that it works so well. However, there is a catch.

843
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 2: The donors of this bacteria need to be screened very

844
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 2: carefully because they can also transmit pathogens with these intestinal bacteria.

845
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: And there's also a couple cases where allergies were transferred,

846
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 2: and I think at least one case where depression was transferred. So,

847
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: you know, it's a marvelous concept and I think it's

848
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 2: going to be a really big piece of the future

849
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 2: medical pie, if you will. I think this is going

850
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 2: to be a mainstream therapy, maybe forty fifty years down

851
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: the road, remodeling the microbiome, so to speak. But there

852
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: are some caveats that are pretty serious we need to

853
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: pay attention to if we're going to engage in this

854
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: sort of therapeutic. But yeah, it's pretty fat. You know.

855
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 2: Another thing that can make people take more risks is

856
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 2: that parasite that we've talked about before called toxoplasma GANDHII

857
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 2: that we study in my laboratory that has infected one.

858
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: That's the one from cats. No, you get it. You

859
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: get it from cat feces, not the urine. You can.

860
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: You can drink all the cat urine you want, but

861
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: it's the cat feces that that is dangerous.

862
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: So you just did our promo, Thanks for that.

863
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, always happy to help. But yeah, the infected

864
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 2: cats can spread it through their stool, okay, But you

865
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 2: can also get it from raw under cooked meat, contaminated water,

866
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,919
Speaker 2: and there's multiple ways to get it. But the point

867
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 2: I'm trying to make is that when you do get this,

868
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 2: you don't really get sick. But the parasite will live

869
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 2: in your brain for the rest of your life. And

870
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 2: there are some really compelling studies that correlate the presence

871
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: of that parasite in the brain to an increase in

872
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 2: risk taking activity. You know, you're more brave, you're more reckless.

873
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 2: So there's some really interesting things that are beyond genetics,

874
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: because there's a genetic component to risk taking behavior as

875
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 2: well that factor into the equation as to whether someone

876
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 2: is timid or risk taking. But what in the world

877
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 2: those bacteria are doing in that original experiment you described,

878
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 2: We have no idea at the moment, but it opens

879
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 2: the doors to some fascinating science.

880
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just so much we still I mean, there's

881
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: so much we know now that we didn't, but there's

882
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: still so much that we don't like. And it's interesting

883
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: when we know what the out or what a potential

884
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: outcome of some intervention or some treatment or whatever is,

885
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: but we don't know the mechanism and we know you

886
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 1: do this and this happens, but we don't know why.

887
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: It's the That's the bit we need to get right,

888
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: is the why.

889
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 2: But that's the great starting point, and that's why I

890
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: love working in science because there is no end to

891
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: the list of interesting observations that people have made, but

892
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 2: each one opens up a whole new can of worms,

893
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: a whole new you know, treasure trove of questions that

894
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 2: we can then go address. And that's what's so endlessly

895
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: fascinating about my job.

896
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: I know how many things have been discovered, you know.

897
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: Accidentally I was talking to on the show today. We're

898
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: recording this on the twenty third, which is Monday. I'm

899
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: just blanking. What's it called? What's that I'm blanking? What's

900
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: the erectile dysfunction drug called?

901
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 2: Oh? Viagra?

902
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, viagra? Sorry. I was talking to Alex. Doctor Alex,

903
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: who's a neurosurgeon, a friend of mine. He comes on

904
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 1: the show. You two would have a great We should

905
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: both get you on one day. But oh, he's great.

906
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: He's great.

907
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: I love to pick the brain of a neuros scientists.

908
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: I say, what you did there, We'll put a whip

909
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: cracking sound in there. But we were talking about how

910
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean that, like biographer example, was developed as I

911
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: think a blood treasure pressure treatment or something similar, and

912
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: it just had this weird byproduct that pharmaceutical companies went, hey,

913
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: look what we did we just cured one of the

914
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: greatest man problems of old time? Or not? Really right?

915
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,760
Speaker 2: No, you're exactly right. It was a blood pressure medication.

916
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 2: That was what it was designed to do. But as

917
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 2: they started putting it into clinical trials, men started exhibiting

918
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 2: this peculiar side effect of erections that would just appear

919
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 2: spontaneously and wouldn't go away. And they started reporting these

920
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: to the nurses that were taking care of them, and

921
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 2: that obviously got back to phiser people, and I'm sure

922
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 2: that people who were interested in high blood pressure were

923
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 2: really disappointed. So geniuses in marketing or whatever department were

924
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 2: like talk about, you know, taking lemons and making lemonade.

925
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: My god, they turned into a blockbuster drug. They invented this,

926
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: this syndrome that didn't even have a name in order

927
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 2: to sell this pill that was going to go into

928
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 2: the trash can because it was not doing what it

929
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 2: was intended to do. Yeah. Wow, they ran away with

930
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 2: that side effect.

931
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: It was.

932
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 2: It's quite a story.

933
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: And think about the potential, Like if it was efficient

934
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: as a blood pressure treatment, they might have made one X,

935
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 1: but with Viagra that made a thousand X, so probably

936
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: a million X. You know, in terms of that. Yeah, exactly,

937
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: lemons to lemonade a couple of quick questions. Have you

938
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: got a little bit or have you got to go?

939
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 2: No, I'm good, this is fun.

940
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: So one of the realities of living in Australia. Well,

941
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: this is my version. I've been here for a while now.

942
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: Is that not all? But and maybe it's changing a

943
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: little bit, but a lot of doctors hand out antibiotics

944
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 1: like lollies.

945
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 2: Right, that's too bad.

946
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 1: This is not a good I'm not proud to say this,

947
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: but I reckon I've been on antibiotics at least twenty

948
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 1: times in my life, right, which is not I know

949
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: that's not a great thing.

950
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 2: Well, that might not necessarily be a bad thing. Antibiotics

951
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 2: are not evil per se, and sometimes they're life saving,

952
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 2: but there is a tendency in Western civilization to over

953
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 2: prescribe them.

954
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel that. So that's my point is just

955
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not asking a specific question, but I'd

956
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: love you just to riff on antibiotics and give us

957
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: like a bit of your thoughts on antibiotics. And yes,

958
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: of course they obviously serve a very legitimate medical purpose.

959
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: We know that, but in general, have a chat for

960
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: us about that, if you would.

961
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I lecture on this to medical students every year.

962
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 2: Antibiotics are some of the most precious drugs that have

963
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 2: ever been developed. In fact, the first, well the one

964
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 2: that most people ascribed to be the first, was penicillin,

965
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 2: and it was literally called the miracle drug because it

966
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: was saving people from fatal infections that we never had

967
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: cure for before. These were truly miraculous treatments, and it's

968
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: even been suggested that the advent of penicillin helped the

969
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 2: Allies win World War Two. It was that important in

970
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 2: order to save soldiers on the battlefield and soldiers from

971
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 2: suffering from gangreen so they could get back on the

972
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 2: not gangreen, gonorrhea. Actually they were suffering from gonorrhea. They

973
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 2: wanted to clear that up so they can get them

974
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: back onto the battlefield. But anyway, these are precious, precious drugs.

975
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 2: But as Alexander Fleming, who discovered penicillin, suggested during his

976
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 2: Nobel Prize speech, if we're not careful with these drugs,

977
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 2: the bacteria are going to evolve resistance to them, and

978
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 2: boy was he right. Within five years of penicillin being

979
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 2: on the market, we started seeing widespread resistance to that antibiotic,

980
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 2: and that's a very scary thing. So antibiotic research exploded

981
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 2: in the subsequent decades up until about the seventies, and

982
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: then it started to taper off. And as a consequence,

983
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 2: we had dozens and dozens of wonderful antibiotics that we

984
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 2: could give patients and in many cases they cured their

985
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 2: infection and in some cases it saved their lives. These

986
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: are literally life saving drugs. So what's the problem if

987
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,479
Speaker 2: he over prescribed them. If we give them when they're

988
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 2: not needed, a couple bad things happen. First of all,

989
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 2: we create environments where bacteria can evolve resistance. Okay, the

990
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 2: more often we use a drug, the higher the probability

991
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 2: that the germ is going to develop resistance. And if

992
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: it develops resistance to a series of antibiotics, we can

993
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 2: literally run out of drugs to treat that pathogen. There

994
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 2: will be nothing left in the medicine cabinet to get

995
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: rid of that infection. So this leads to what's called

996
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 2: the so called superbugs that are resistant to multiple antibiotics.

997
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 2: That's a big problem. Right now. Sixty five thousand people

998
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 2: die in the United States each year from these superinfections

999
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 2: because doctors can only shrug their shoulders and say, we

1000
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 2: have no antibiotics left that will treat this infection. It's

1001
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 2: resistant to all of them, and unfortunately, pharmaceutical companies are

1002
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: not investing in new antibiotic research right now. So that's

1003
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 2: a whole other can of worms we can talk about later,

1004
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 2: but anti microbial resistance is one of the number one

1005
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: things we want to be aware of when we give

1006
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 2: antibiotics to people. The second problem relates to the microbiome

1007
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 2: that we talked about before, so there's been some suggestive studies.

1008
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: I don't want to say that this is decided science,

1009
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 2: but if we give antibiotics to infants and young children

1010
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 2: for prolonged periods of time, that disturbs their microbial environment

1011
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 2: in their gut, and this can lead to negative health

1012
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 2: consequences as they grow up. It's been linked to things

1013
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 2: like allergy, social behavior problems, inflammation, and things like that.

1014
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 2: So giving antibiotics, especially at a young age, can be

1015
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 2: life saving, but you want to make sure there are

1016
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 2: as short term as possible and that you're not giving

1017
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: them for a long time, just in case there are

1018
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 2: some long term effects associated with damage that the microbiotic receive.

1019
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 2: This can happen in adults too. I already mentioned earlier.

1020
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 2: People who are on prolonged antibiotics are more susceptible to

1021
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 2: see diff infections, and that's naturally resistant to antibiotics, and

1022
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 2: it takes some really drastic measures in order to treat

1023
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 2: this horrible infection. So those are some of the main

1024
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 2: reasons why we are a little more leery about giving

1025
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 2: antibiotics out liberally. They're life saving medicines, but we want

1026
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 2: to use them only when necessary. Antibiotics do nothing against

1027
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 2: viral infections, for example, So if you go to your

1028
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 2: doctor with your sneezing and sniffling and they don't know

1029
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 2: if it's a virus or a bacterial infection, antibiotics should

1030
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 2: not be given, Okay, it should. They should only be

1031
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 2: given if there's a high probability that the illness is

1032
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 2: in fact caused by a bacteria, Because if it's caused

1033
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 2: by a virus, those antibiotics are not going to do anything.

1034
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: Wow, and we're just putting something in our body that

1035
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: that our body.

1036
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 2: Doesn't Yeah, you're taking it unnecessarily and what goes into

1037
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 2: our body. Craig also goes into the sewer system, it

1038
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 2: goes into the waste which gets out into the environment.

1039
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 2: So a scientists have sampled many places around the environment,

1040
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 2: at least in the United States, and antibiotics, the ones

1041
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 2: that we make as human beings, are out there everywhere.

1042
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 2: And that's a really sad thing to see because if

1043
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 2: the antibiotics are out there in the environment, then there

1044
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 2: are germs out there that are resistant to those antibiotics,

1045
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 2: and then then when they start to infect animals and humans,

1046
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 2: we have a major problem on our hands.

1047
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 1: Wow. Hey, one of the things that I've spoken about

1048
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: on this show, not with you, but with another regular guest.

1049
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: We have who's an Australian author and researcher, David Gillespie,

1050
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: who's a gun. He's written a book, a bunch of books,

1051
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: but he's obsessed with sociopathy, right, with sociopaths. And I

1052
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you and this.

1053
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: He should come over here and comment on our election.

1054
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: Oh he's he's a genius, but he talks about toxic

1055
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 1: box bosses and a whole lot of stuff. But anyway,

1056
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: so if one end of that kind of spectrum, we've

1057
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: got sociopaths, psychopaths and At the other end of that scale,

1058
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 1: we've got, you know, compassion, people who are predisposed to

1059
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: being very kind, very compassionate. Do you think that Do

1060
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: you think that there's a genetic component to compassion and

1061
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: what we might broadly call morality and all that kind

1062
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 1: of stuff. Is that how moral someone is. Do you

1063
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: think that's more about whatever morality means or ethics, or

1064
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: do you think that's more about environment and upbringing or

1065
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: is there a genetic component to that?

1066
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 2: Also, I don't think it's in either. Org there's clearly

1067
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 2: genes that have been implicated in aggressive and violent behavior. Okay,

1068
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 2: this has been shown pretty convincingly in mouse models and

1069
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 2: in some human families where aggression seems to be hereditary.

1070
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 2: Think like the generations of psychopaths that are born in

1071
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 2: certain family lineages that can be traced to genetic defects.

1072
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:01,439
Speaker 2: But what those genetic defects really mean is that there

1073
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: is a change in the brain structure or the brain

1074
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 2: chemistry in these individuals that make them abnormal. Okay, but

1075
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 2: there's many, many other reasons that people can snap and

1076
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 2: go psychopathic, which include any sort of damage to the

1077
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 2: brain which can be brought upon by infection, trauma like concussions,

1078
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 2: old age can do it. You know, dementia can sometimes

1079
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 2: make people violent. There's a whole host of things that

1080
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 2: can happen to the brain that have nothing to do

1081
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 2: with genetics, because the brain was perfectly fine before it

1082
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 2: got injured in some way and then it produced psychopathic behavior. So,

1083
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 2: and that's not to say that the environment is not

1084
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 2: important at all, Craig. There's the phenomenon of epigenetics, and

1085
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 2: it's been shown very clearly that children who are exposed

1086
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 2: to adverse childhood experiences or aces as they're known in psychology,

1087
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 2: have a propensity not always, but they have a propensity

1088
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 2: grow up with behavioral problems, you know, antisocial behaviors, sometimes

1089
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 2: violent and aggression. And this has been linked to epigenetic

1090
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,919
Speaker 2: changes that happen because of the environment they grew up in.

1091
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 2: These adverse childhood experiences can modify the gene activity of

1092
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 2: the genes that are responsible for managing stress, and they,

1093
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 2: as a consequence, have lifelong problems managing stressful situations, and

1094
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 2: this can lead to anxiety and even violence later on

1095
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 2: in life. Yeah, I go again, many different variables in

1096
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 2: the equation.

1097
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, it just seems like I meete a

1098
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: lot of people who it's like I met. The reason

1099
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: I asked that was I was talking to a mum

1100
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: and her daughter the other day, and they're both like

1101
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 1: the nicest people, like just genuinely loving, kind, compassionate. They

1102
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: do all this work and they just don't want anything.

1103
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: And I'm like, if I wonder if the daughters like

1104
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 1: the mum because she grew up in that kind of energy,

1105
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: in that environment and that mindset, or there's a genetic

1106
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 1: component to that.

1107
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 2: But you know, we should do we will take the

1108
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 2: We should take the intestinal bacteria of hippies and put

1109
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 2: it into a violent criminal and see if that doesn't

1110
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 2: change their behavior.

1111
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: Well, if any of you hippies who listened to this,

1112
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: and any of you violent also listened to this, want

1113
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 1: to be involved in doctor Bill's study, so I want

1114
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: to read you something. The symptoms of the proposed type

1115
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: three diabetes condition may include symptoms of dementia, such as

1116
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: seen in early Alzheimer's disease. According to the Alzheimer's Disease Association,

1117
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: these symptoms include memory lost, blah blah blah. So this

1118
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: this this term type three diabetes. Have you heard of

1119
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: that Is that a thing or is that just is

1120
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 1: that just bullshit?

1121
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:04,959
Speaker 2: To be honest, I've never heard it before. It could

1122
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 2: be a thing. I'm only familiar with Tape one and two.

1123
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, And I don't know that it's Yeah,

1124
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: there's just that they're talking about. I heard somebody the

1125
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 1: other day, and I don't think this is solid science,

1126
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: but they were talking about how essentially dementia is an

1127
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 1: expression of or a consequence of type three diabetes. Anyway,

1128
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: I'll do some more research, maybe you'll have a reason.

1129
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 1: We might talk about it next time. My last question

1130
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: for you is this, are some people more genetically inclined

1131
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 1: to enjoy exercise. I've spoken a lot of people over

1132
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 1: the years who go, it's just not my thing. I

1133
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 1: just don't enjoy it. I hate it. And I wonder

1134
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 1: if that's again, if that's truly just who they are genetically,

1135
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: that's just that's just part of them, or if that's

1136
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: just because I grew up in a family where that

1137
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: wasn't encouraged or supported.

1138
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 2: I think it's completely possible that there could be a

1139
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 2: genetic component to someone's inclination to exercise or not. But

1140
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 2: I think what's more likely is there's probably a genetic

1141
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 2: component into the type of exercise that someone might want

1142
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 2: to enjoy. I mean, there's the best study that I

1143
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 2: can think of within this realm would be like the

1144
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 2: genes that govern fast twitching of muscles, and it governs

1145
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 2: the recovery time of muscles. And basically, if you have

1146
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:39,520
Speaker 2: one variation of this gene, you're really good at distance

1147
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 2: or marathon or endurance type sports, but you're really crappy

1148
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 2: at those that require a real sudden burst of energy.

1149
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 2: The other genetic variants the opposite. The other variant says

1150
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 2: you're really good at short bursts of activity, You're a

1151
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 2: great sprinter. You know, you have better abilities with returned

1152
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 2: in terms of strength. That genetic variation is one of

1153
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 2: the clearest cut that I've seen. But that really doesn't

1154
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 2: get to the heart of motivating people to exercise. And

1155
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 2: I think what is happening there is that some people

1156
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 2: might want to fall back on genetics as an excuse,

1157
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 2: and that's the last thing we want anyone to do.

1158
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 2: People need to keep in mind is that exercise can

1159
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 2: be fun. I mean, it can be. If you enjoy running,

1160
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 2: get out there and run or walk. If not, try swimming.

1161
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 2: If not, try playing basketball or football. You know there's

1162
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 2: something out there that you're going to enjoy that will

1163
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,720
Speaker 2: give you the exercise that you need. And I know

1164
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:41,720
Speaker 2: very few people who just can't go walk around the

1165
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 2: block a few times, and you can do lots of

1166
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 2: things while you do that. You can listen to the

1167
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 2: U Project podcast during this walk, and what better way

1168
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 2: to exercise and entertain yourself at the same time. And

1169
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 2: if you're not a fan, and that's the new promo,

1170
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 2: but if you're not a fan of Craig Harper, first

1171
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 2: why uh? And then second, turn on a different podcast,

1172
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 2: or listen to a book or some music, whatever, float

1173
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 2: your boat, do whatever it takes. Find a regiment that

1174
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 2: works for you that's going to allow you to get

1175
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,799
Speaker 2: in the exercise you need. It's really important underdersent.

1176
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 1: We'll finish with this as we as the world is

1177
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 1: watching on it. The fucking shit show that is the

1178
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:29,879
Speaker 1: upcoming election. What are your thoughts.

1179
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:33,639
Speaker 2: Who's gonna win? Who's going to wing our election? Yeah?

1180
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 2: I think it's our election forty less than forty five

1181
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:38,719
Speaker 2: days away?

1182
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 1: What is it November five or is that it?

1183
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,639
Speaker 2: Yeah? So it's coming up in early November and all

1184
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 2: of this will be said and done, you know, a

1185
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,679
Speaker 2: day or two after that, so we'll see what happens.

1186
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 1: Who's going to win.

1187
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 2: Really, it's a really interesting cycle. Oh that kind of prediction.

1188
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 2: I'm really hoping for Harris to tell you the truth.

1189
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 2: If it is Trump, I fear not just for the

1190
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 2: States but for the world.

1191
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, it's it's it's it's entertaining and terrifying to

1192
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 1: look on from afar, but anyway, it's probably more terrifying

1193
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:24,759
Speaker 1: to be in the middle of it over there.

1194
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 2: Well, what surprises me is that roughly half this country

1195
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 2: is perfectly fine with a convicted felon running for office.

1196
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 2: That's just unfathomable to me. I just can't get over that.

1197
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like that's almost like he's superpower is

1198
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:47,560
Speaker 1: that he doesn't.

1199
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 2: He's teflon man, He's teflon. Everything bounces off of it.

1200
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 2: It just slides off. People just create excuses for this guy.

1201
01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 2: He can't formulate a complete sentence, and then people are saying, well,

1202
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,920
Speaker 2: that's part of his genius, Like, no, that's that's dementia

1203
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:05,759
Speaker 2: talking dude.

1204
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Wow, it's just crazy.

1205
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,640
Speaker 2: The twisted knots that people are putting themselves in so

1206
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 2: they can make excuses for this guy. It's unbelievable to me.

1207
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 1: Conformation biased doc work like we just we live in

1208
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 1: the echo chamber. Don't let the facts get in the way.

1209
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 1: Doctor Bill Sullivan is the author, pleased to meet me, jeans, germs,

1210
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 1: and the curious forces that make us who we are.

1211
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 1: Do you want to point our audience in any other direction? Doc?

1212
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 2: Is there anything else? If people want to learn more

1213
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 2: about the book, or follow up on some of the

1214
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 2: writings that I've done, or other appearances on the You

1215
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 2: Project and other podcasts, they can go to my website,

1216
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 2: Author Bill Sullivan dot com. There's also a mailing list

1217
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 2: option you can sign up for if you want to

1218
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 2: sign up for that.

1219
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:00,479
Speaker 1: I think it's time for a new book, bro, I

1220
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 1: think it's five years. I think you're getting a little tardier.

1221
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 1: I think you better just get a hurry along.

1222
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:09,639
Speaker 2: I'm still getting some good mileage out of this one,

1223
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 2: so I don't want to equipse that. Okay, but hey,

1224
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 2: you know, tell the major publishers to come knock on

1225
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 2: my door and we'll see what we can do.

1226
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 1: A com believe they're not knocking, all right.

1227
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 2: I got ideas, man, I got ideas.

1228
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:29,599
Speaker 1: Of course you do, all right mate. We appreciate you,

1229
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,719
Speaker 1: love having you on the show, and yeah, I value

1230
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 1: your contribution greatly. Thanks so much again.

1231
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:37,920
Speaker 2: Hey, always a pleasure to look forward to next time.