Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. On the
Speaker 1: morning of Good Friday, April eighteen, twenty twenty five, one
Speaker 1: week before the release two subscribers of this episode number
Speaker 1: thirty two in the Bromwin series. I flew to Sydney
Speaker 1: and went straight to Andy and Michelle's house in the Shire.
Speaker 1: This was my third visit to their home in a
Speaker 1: place that Andy proudly refers to as God's Country. We've
Speaker 1: caught up multiple times elsewhere Good I I. We spoke
Speaker 1: about a range of things. The evidence from the inquest
Speaker 1: was on Andy's mind because he was rehearing it in
Speaker 1: these in Quest episodes. He cannot understand why so much
Speaker 1: evidence went missing. Here is one example. Andy had numerous
Speaker 1: conversations with the detective Graham discin back in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: but police running sheets documenting the concerns that Andy was
Speaker 1: raising with Balano detectives in nineteen ninety three appear to
Speaker 1: be missing from the record. However, a formal document which
Speaker 1: purports to particularize a conversation between Bromwin's cousin Megan Reid
Speaker 1: and Graham Discin in nineteen ninety three has survived and
Speaker 1: forms part of the evidentiary record. It's the document that
Speaker 1: paints John in a positive light while depicting Bromwin as
Speaker 1: an unstable fantasist. Meghan emphatically denies saying the things attributed
Speaker 1: to her in that document. Meanwhile, other relevant evidence appears
Speaker 1: to have completely disappeared. Where is all the information and
Speaker 1: the running shoots path?
Speaker 2: The stuff's missing? Will we ever know the truth?
Speaker 1: During the inquest they were still getting documents Bromman's letters.
Speaker 1: That stuff was still being made available at a late
Speaker 1: stage of the actual five days of hearings, and this
Speaker 1: was material that Discin had originally received from John.
Speaker 2: Nothing adds up.
Speaker 1: This is going to be the last episode for some weeks.
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle have headed overseas for a long planned
Speaker 1: holiday and there's a good prospect will catch up somewhere,
Speaker 1: perhaps in the highlands of Scotland. At the end of
Speaker 1: this episode, my very good friend and colleague Matt Condon
Speaker 1: will share news about his upcoming podcast series called The
Speaker 1: Gangster's Ghost. It will start coming out in May twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five, when the weekly production of the Bromwin series
Speaker 1: is on pause or a couple of months. What we'll
Speaker 1: do then is have a season break. When you get back,
Speaker 1: you're expecting to be able to sit down with senior police.
Speaker 3: Yep, yes, I'm hoping to be able to go and
Speaker 3: have a do.
Speaker 4: Briefing with them, find out where we're at.
Speaker 5: That sounds promising.
Speaker 1: We reflected on the fact that fourteen months earlier, in
Speaker 1: the same comfortable chairs in their lounge room, we recorded
Speaker 1: our first interviews together. But back then we are not
Speaker 1: aware of the evidence of Judy Singh, of the potential
Speaker 1: significance of Illawong, the glaring inconsistencies in John's versions, and
Speaker 1: the gaping holes in investigations by police. I didn't think
Speaker 1: we'd still be talking about this and planning further episodes
Speaker 1: more than a year later.
Speaker 2: No, it's incredible, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's not tangible, but to me, it feels as if
Speaker 1: there's been some change, potentially on the verge.
Speaker 5: Of a breakthrough.
Speaker 2: Feels like it, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: There are several more leads that I want to develop
Speaker 1: in the podcast, and there's also George Radmore's cold case
Speaker 1: review and further evidence that came to light through that.
Speaker 1: It is also important, in my view to investigate and
Speaker 1: report in this podcast how the then lawyers in the
Speaker 1: Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in Lismore and
Speaker 1: then it is in the head office in Sydney can
Speaker 1: have come to the view that there was not enough evidence.
Speaker 1: That was a view contrary to the unequivocal finding of
Speaker 1: the then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milvanovitch, and you'll hear
Speaker 1: his detailed reasons near the end of this episode. Karl's
Speaker 1: judgment looks right, and the evidence in our view has
Speaker 1: always been damning in relation to just one person.
Speaker 5: But we can do that when you get back.
Speaker 2: Sounds like a plan.
Speaker 5: That's good.
Speaker 6: The whole object of this is finding the truth, the
Speaker 6: truth about what happened to Brohman, whatever that may be.
Speaker 2: Now, the fact that it's sort of.
Speaker 7: Narrowed itself down a path where it doesn't look like
Speaker 7: anything else could have happened except for one thing, well,
Speaker 7: that's just the way it is.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: Let's return to the inquest. It's day four. Matt Fordham
Speaker 1: is revisiting the written statement of Jody's mother, Jennifer Mason
Speaker 1: and how she had told police that John left the
Speaker 1: two girls with Jennifer's mother in law, Joan Mason, and
Speaker 1: that when John returned, he asked Jennifer to look after
Speaker 1: them for a fortnight.
Speaker 5: Matt Fordham asked, Jody.
Speaker 8: Does it surprise you that someone with the parenting schools
Speaker 8: of your father would not plan ahead for the childcare?
Speaker 9: Well, yes, you know you would normally plan ahead, but
Speaker 9: I mean didn't have time really, he just came back.
Speaker 8: So, ma'am, I'll read out some further parts of your
Speaker 8: mother's statement.
Speaker 10: I came home one day from shopping in nineteen ninety
Speaker 10: three and my mother in law, Brad's mother, said, you've
Speaker 10: got two visitors out in the backyard. Both of the
Speaker 10: children were dressed in pajamas. Joan told me that John
Speaker 10: Winfield had turned up about an hour earlier and asked
Speaker 10: if he could leave the kids at my house. There
Speaker 10: were no clothes for the children that John brought. It
Speaker 10: was about an hour after that when John arrived. I
Speaker 10: said to him something like what's going on? John said,
Speaker 10: I've got a big job on and nobody to look
Speaker 10: after the kids. Can you look after them? For about
Speaker 10: two weeks I'll pay you. I said, where's Bromwind. John
Speaker 10: said she's gone off with a boyfriend. I said, I
Speaker 10: can't look after them, You'll have to find someone else.
Speaker 10: I'm in the process of packing and moving. I remember
Speaker 10: thinking at the time it was strange he hadn't brought
Speaker 10: any clothing for the children. It wasn't his normal character.
Speaker 10: He usually liked to be organized. I found out later
Speaker 10: through Jody that Bromward had gone missing from Lennox Head.
Speaker 8: Ma'am, do you know apart from the registration of the car,
Speaker 8: do you know anywhere else that Jonathan may have gone
Speaker 8: and the hours around lunchtime on that day?
Speaker 9: No, I don't.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham then asked Jody about her hairdressing apprenticeship. As
Speaker 1: part of her training, she also went to a technical college,
Speaker 1: and Jody said that her one day a week at
Speaker 1: college would have been each Monday or Wednesday. The police
Speaker 1: officer reminded Jody that she did not remember the family
Speaker 1: dog being inside the car. When, according to Jody, her
Speaker 1: father arrived with the two girls at the salon on
Speaker 1: Monday morning, it seemed that he was doubting whether John
Speaker 1: had even gone to the salon.
Speaker 8: Ma'am but do you recall there was some journals inside
Speaker 8: the car, Is that correct?
Speaker 9: Yep, in the back.
Speaker 8: Whereabouts in the back were they?
Speaker 9: I don't know, And I was just talking to Dad
Speaker 9: before I went back in. The boot was open and
Speaker 9: he was getting something out for the kids. I don't
Speaker 9: know what, but that's when he picked it up out
Speaker 9: of the boot. I don't even know if I saw
Speaker 9: what side of the boot, but he sort of picked
Speaker 9: it up and went to show me. But I knew
Speaker 9: I was getting called back inside, so I will not called.
Speaker 9: But I knew I was getting looked at and needed
Speaker 9: to be back inside, so I didn't have time to
Speaker 9: go into anything with it.
Speaker 1: Here for the first time, John's daughter was introducing evidence
Speaker 1: of having seen inside the car's boot on the Monday morning.
Speaker 1: She remembered this at the inquest during the lunch adjournment.
Speaker 9: After just talking to Dad.
Speaker 1: Now we have speculated that Bromwin's body was in the boot.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham's earlier questions about John's unknown movements after he
Speaker 1: had dropped the two girls off at the home of
Speaker 1: his ex wife were connected to a similar theory that
Speaker 1: Bromwin's body was in the boot of the ford Falcon,
Speaker 1: but neither the police officer nor Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor
Speaker 1: knew then of the two paws of concrete at the
Speaker 1: building site in Illawan where John had been working. It
Speaker 1: only became known because we asked for building department documents
Speaker 1: from the local southerland Shire Council.
Speaker 8: Did you see anything else inside the boot?
Speaker 9: No, not that I remember.
Speaker 8: And these journals that you saw, could you describe them
Speaker 8: to us?
Speaker 9: It was just like a force cap page with no
Speaker 9: front on it, and it just was pages of her writing.
Speaker 9: I know her writing, and it was her writing and
Speaker 9: just on a notebook sort of thing.
Speaker 8: Did you see them inside the boot and pick them
Speaker 8: up or did your father pick them up and hand
Speaker 8: them to you?
Speaker 9: From memory, I seem to seem sort of pulling them
Speaker 9: out like, but I don't really I don't really.
Speaker 8: Remember, I'm not And did he hand them to you?
Speaker 9: No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked a flurry of questions. Did she read
Speaker 1: the pages, did her father comment to her about them?
Speaker 1: Did she get a look at them? Jody answered no.
Speaker 8: You see, ma'am, today is the first time that you've
Speaker 8: either told the police or his worship about seeing those
Speaker 8: journals at the back of the car that day, isn't it.
Speaker 9: I don't think so. I'm sure I told Detective Taylor
Speaker 9: about that when he spoke to me.
Speaker 8: You'd agree with me that there's absolutely no reference in
Speaker 8: your statement too.
Speaker 9: No, it's not in there. I know it's not in there.
Speaker 9: I don't know why it wasn't written in my statement,
Speaker 9: but I do sort of. I'm positive. I remember talking
Speaker 9: to Detective Taylor and Detective Temby about it, and he
Speaker 9: said something to the words of, yeah, well, we don't
Speaker 9: know where that is now, like it disappeared, so and
Speaker 9: I'm pretty confident and Detective Temby was there, so we
Speaker 9: just left it at that.
Speaker 8: Why did you tell Detective Temby in Detective Taylor about.
Speaker 9: That, because he asked me if i'd seen into the
Speaker 9: boot that day and what was in there, and that's
Speaker 9: how the notebook came up.
Speaker 8: In your discussions with your father over the years, have
Speaker 8: you learnt the relevance of those documents?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 9: I haven't.
Speaker 8: Actually, is there any reason why you didn't indicate it
Speaker 8: to Detective Discan.
Speaker 9: Detective disc In, I only spoke to Detective Discan for
Speaker 9: about five minutes, and he asked me, nothing like that.
Speaker 1: Jody was then asked again about how her father connected
Speaker 1: with Rebecca Maguire to visit the house on Sunday evening.
Speaker 1: Jody said that she had not put them in touch.
Speaker 1: She said John had not talked to her about who
Speaker 1: would be suitable to accompany him to Sandstone Crescent. Jody
Speaker 1: seemed perplexed.
Speaker 9: She didn't have the phone on. I don't think Matt.
Speaker 1: Fordham went back to Broman's writings.
Speaker 8: You'd agree that a journal would be some indication as
Speaker 8: to a state of mind at the time she went missing,
Speaker 8: wouldn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 8: And you'd agree with me that if the Reeds were
Speaker 8: asking you about what had happened to Bronwin, you'd be
Speaker 8: trying to provide them with all the information that you could,
Speaker 8: wouldn't you.
Speaker 9: I would assume.
Speaker 8: So you certainly wouldn't be trying to hide anything, would you.
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 8: And if you accept that your father at no stage
Speaker 8: even told the Reeds about the existence of the journal,
Speaker 8: doesn't that strike you as being strange?
Speaker 9: Maybe? But my dad's a very private person.
Speaker 8: So, ma'am, how many nights did the children and your
Speaker 8: father stay with you at your flat? I don't recall,
Speaker 8: where did the family dog stay.
Speaker 9: I don't know. I didn't have the dog with me,
Speaker 9: so I didn't know where the.
Speaker 8: Dog was, ma'am. After the months have passed and Bronwin
Speaker 8: hasn't returned, what happened to the jewelry that she owned?
Speaker 9: I never really asked. I never I thought she would
Speaker 9: have had it with her until the other day when
Speaker 9: I saw the box.
Speaker 8: She would have had earrings, she would have had necklaces,
Speaker 8: she would have had bangles, She would have had a
Speaker 8: range of jewelry, wouldn't she Probably Do you know what
Speaker 8: happened to that?
Speaker 9: No, I don't.
Speaker 8: When you returned to the house at lanticx Head, at
Speaker 8: some stage, did you ever inquire of your dad as
Speaker 8: to what happened to the things that Bronwin owned.
Speaker 9: I think at some stage I may have asked where
Speaker 9: the clothes, where her clothes were or something, because I mean,
Speaker 9: she you know, she didn't take much with her or whatever,
Speaker 9: so I think he put them in a bag and
Speaker 9: they were kept in the house for her. But I'm
Speaker 9: not certain on that either.
Speaker 8: To your knowledge, does your father still have any of
Speaker 8: the jewelry that braun Went owned.
Speaker 9: Well, I don't know. I've never asked him.
Speaker 8: Were you told anything about a medicare check by your father?
Speaker 9: I don't remember anything about the medicare.
Speaker 8: Check now, ma'am. In the weeks that your father has
Speaker 8: arrived down in Sydney after the sixteenth of May, did
Speaker 8: you have any discussions with him about taking legal action
Speaker 8: to protect his interests in the house.
Speaker 9: Sorry, say that again.
Speaker 5: Matt Fordham asked his question again.
Speaker 1: Logically, if Bromin was alive and she had gone away
Speaker 1: for a few days or a couple of weeks, she
Speaker 1: would return and then the contest over the.
Speaker 5: House would be on again.
Speaker 1: John would surely talk to Jody about his plans to
Speaker 1: counter Broman's determination to walk away from the failed marriage
Speaker 1: with a part of their asset pul which was rightfully hers.
Speaker 9: No, I never talked to him about the house.
Speaker 8: You've never discussed the ownership of the house with your father, No,
Speaker 8: not at all.
Speaker 9: I know nothing about the legal part of any of
Speaker 9: their stuff, both of them. My dad would never have
Speaker 9: told me information like that, and Bronwin would never have
Speaker 9: got me involved in.
Speaker 8: Stuff like that. Do you think your father was concerned
Speaker 8: about Bronwin running off with the children?
Speaker 12: No?
Speaker 9: Why is that well, there was never any reason for
Speaker 9: her to run off with them.
Speaker 8: Looking back on it now, don't you think that it's
Speaker 8: strange the course of events that followed Bronlin's disappearance.
Speaker 9: At the time, I didn't question it because, yes, my age,
Speaker 9: if it happened now and the age I am, yes,
Speaker 9: I would have had so many questions like everybody else does.
Speaker 9: But at the time I didn't because I just I
Speaker 9: just didn't.
Speaker 8: Ma'am. Do you have any idea what may have happened
Speaker 8: to Bronwin?
Speaker 9: No, I don't.
Speaker 8: You would have become quite close to Bronwin in the
Speaker 8: years that you stayed with it, is that correct?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 9: I did.
Speaker 8: She was very much a mother figure to you, wasn't she. Yeah,
Speaker 8: And you'd agree with me that any sightings of Bronin
Speaker 8: would be something that you would be keen of the
Speaker 8: police to follow up very quickly an attempt to locate her.
Speaker 9: Definitely, And you'd agree with me that.
Speaker 8: If Bronin was located, then it would put everybody's mind
Speaker 8: to rest, wouldn't it.
Speaker 9: Definitely.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham summarized Jody's actions earlier in the week, when
Speaker 1: she indicated that she had received information on Monday morning
Speaker 1: from a woman Kayleen, who had purportedly told Jody that
Speaker 1: another woman, Joanne, may have seen Bromwin.
Speaker 9: In Nimben out Nimbenweh was what she told me out Nimbenweh.
Speaker 8: And do you agree with me that when the officer
Speaker 8: in charge and I asked you some questions in relation
Speaker 8: to who Joanne was and who the caller was, you
Speaker 8: said words to the effect that you didn't want to
Speaker 8: ask too many questions because you were scared that you
Speaker 8: would scare her off.
Speaker 9: Well, I got what I needed to get out of her,
Speaker 9: and I didn't want to ask her last name. I had, however,
Speaker 9: got Joanne's name and that she was married to Craig
Speaker 9: and that was Mark Guthrie's brother. I thought that's all
Speaker 9: I needed. And after I asked her if she has
Speaker 9: told the police this information, she said yes. I thought, well,
Speaker 9: it would be in the statements. They can find her
Speaker 9: name through that. That's why I didn't push for anything else.
Speaker 8: But you'd agree with me that the information you're hearing
Speaker 8: on Monday morning, it's a fairly extraordinary thing for people
Speaker 8: to ring you up and say that they may have
Speaker 8: seen her.
Speaker 9: Well, yes, especially being on the morning of it. But
Speaker 9: I'm just I'm just relaying the information that I have.
Speaker 9: I mean, what was I going to do, not turn
Speaker 9: up and say it. I had to say what happened.
Speaker 1: The police officer pointed out that Jody had not inquired
Speaker 1: of Kayleen's surname, nor had Jody asked about Bromwin's purported
Speaker 1: whereabouts in Nimben.
Speaker 9: No, because I didn't want to scare her off. I
Speaker 9: just knew that if her name was in the statements,
Speaker 9: you'd be able to find her.
Speaker 8: Why should she be scared?
Speaker 9: Because if she knew this, why didn't she come forward
Speaker 9: with it earlier? If Johanna told her years ago that
Speaker 9: she thought she saw her, why didn't she come forward.
Speaker 9: I got the impression she didn't want to be involved,
Speaker 9: so I just left it that way. I expect you
Speaker 9: to take it further, not me.
Speaker 8: You weren't interested in finding out yourself?
Speaker 9: Yes, I was, but I knew you would do that
Speaker 9: for me.
Speaker 8: You see, ma'am, I really can't believe that someone who
Speaker 8: has lost a mother figure would simply say, well, I
Speaker 8: won't ask any questions of this caller, I'll let police
Speaker 8: follow it up. Have you ever received any financial gifts
Speaker 8: from your father of a substantial nature. No, you've obviously
Speaker 8: discussed the progress of this matter with your father leading
Speaker 8: up to you today of this week.
Speaker 9: You mean, briefly, But Dad's trying. He doesn't get me
Speaker 9: involved in it. He does not involve me or influence
Speaker 9: me in any way whatsoever.
Speaker 8: When you say he doesn't involve you, you'd agree with
Speaker 8: me that on seventeen May nineteen ninety three, he involved you,
Speaker 8: didn't he. Yes, Are you suggesting that your father hasn't
Speaker 8: spoken with you at all about the evidence that you've
Speaker 8: heard at this inquest?
Speaker 9: No, not really.
Speaker 1: Jodie insisted that her father had not suggested to her
Speaker 1: any of the evidence that she should give to the inquest,
Speaker 1: and she said that he had definitely not influenced her
Speaker 1: in relation to her memory of events relevant to Bromwin's disappearance.
Speaker 8: You see, ma'am, there must have been some information over
Speaker 8: the years that you've learned about Bronwin and her disappearance,
Speaker 8: which you've learnt from your father.
Speaker 9: There's lots of things I've learned about this whole thing
Speaker 9: over the years. And to be honest, like somebody said, rumors,
Speaker 9: there are so many rumors that it's just like this
Speaker 9: influx of information. You don't know where you get it
Speaker 9: from half the time the stuff.
Speaker 8: You hear, And ma'am, you'd agree that based on your
Speaker 8: knowledge of Bronwin, she wouldn't be the person that would
Speaker 8: walk out on her children, would she.
Speaker 9: I wouldn't have thought so.
Speaker 8: And therefore, ma'am, you must be surprised that Bronlin hasn't
Speaker 8: returned after all this time.
Speaker 9: Yes, I am surprised, but you know there was things
Speaker 9: going on with Bronwin at the time when she disappeared.
Speaker 8: You're saying, ma'am, I'm suggesting it's unbelievable, really, that you
Speaker 8: could lose this mother figure and these reported sightings occur,
Speaker 8: and the medicare check arrives, and the clothes go missing,
Speaker 8: and you don't discuss these matters with your father.
Speaker 9: I don't discuss them in any great in any detail. No,
Speaker 9: if I've asked him questions, he'll answer me, and that's
Speaker 9: about it. I don't recall any definite conversations. I think
Speaker 9: we just assumed that whoever picked her up in the
Speaker 9: car was a boyfriend.
Speaker 8: And you agree, there's been a suggestion that Bronwin may
Speaker 8: have run off with some religious group or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 8: I've heard that too, And none of these things you've
Speaker 8: discussed with your father.
Speaker 9: I mean, the way I see it is that you know,
Speaker 9: if your wife walks out on you and disappears, it's
Speaker 9: obviously something that's going to be upsetting for you. So no,
Speaker 9: I don't push him to talk. If he wants to
Speaker 9: talk to me about it, of course I'm going to
Speaker 9: talk to him, but I don't push him to talk
Speaker 9: to me about it.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham sat down. He was done with Jody. John's lawyer,
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett, stood to ask just a few questions. He
Speaker 1: sought to develop Jody's characterization of Bromwin's behavior in May
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 12: What did you mean by that?
Speaker 9: Well, I'd heard a lot of things from friends people
Speaker 9: around the town that she was acting at work and
Speaker 9: the way she was acting with me that weren't her
Speaker 9: normal behavior coming up to her disappearing.
Speaker 12: Can you recall any specific examples of how she was
Speaker 12: acting other than normally at that time?
Speaker 9: I recall one night she rang me. I don't remember
Speaker 9: what it was she was asking me. It was really
Speaker 9: late and I was asleep actually, and she said something
Speaker 9: to me about drinking and drink driving any other incidents,
Speaker 9: only the I was, you know, hearing she was riding
Speaker 9: around town on the backs of motorbikes and things like
Speaker 9: that through friends that I knew downtown and people were
Speaker 9: saying things like she used to walk down the street
Speaker 9: talking to herself and things like that, which was not,
Speaker 9: you know, the Bronlin that I used to know, and
Speaker 9: that was that.
Speaker 1: Jodi was excused, got up and walked away.
Speaker 8: I call Crystal Winfield.
Speaker 1: It was a bold move by the police officer presenting
Speaker 1: the case to the deputy state coroner. The suspected murder
Speaker 1: victim's daughter would give evidence and potentially implicate the man
Speaker 1: she called dad. Karl Milavanovitch understood that the stakes were
Speaker 1: getting higher. It would be hard enough for the youngest
Speaker 1: witness at the inquest. He didn't want to add to
Speaker 1: her burden.
Speaker 14: Mister Leggett, I'm going to make a direction. Did the
Speaker 14: evidence of Crystal be given in the absence of your
Speaker 14: clothe and also in the absence of Jody made Yes, sir,
Speaker 14: those persons will have to leave the court room.
Speaker 12: Yeh, yes, yes, I understand.
Speaker 1: Crystal Joy Winfield approached the witness stand as John and
Speaker 1: Jody walked out of the Lismore courtroom.
Speaker 14: Crystal, if you need to break at any time, just
Speaker 14: let me know if you want a glass of water
Speaker 14: or anything.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham canvassed with Crystal Key parts of her police statement,
Speaker 1: Crystal started to expand on some of it in her
Speaker 1: oral evidence. She recalled seeing John on the night of
Speaker 1: May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2: I remember Dad.
Speaker 11: I mean, I don't know whether he left it that,
Speaker 11: but I do remember him coming in and I do
Speaker 11: remember sitting there watching TV with Luren and they were talking.
Speaker 11: He was asking who's going to pay the bills?
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham then prompted Cristal with what she said next
Speaker 1: in her statement about her mother telling her and Lauren
Speaker 1: to clean their teeth and go to bed, and of
Speaker 1: hearing her parents arguing and her mother crying.
Speaker 8: Do you remember that happening?
Speaker 15: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I do, yeah, very clearly.
Speaker 8: Do you remember was the argument a short one or
Speaker 8: did it go for a long time?
Speaker 2: I think it was kind of more discussion.
Speaker 11: Mum was very worried about, you know, talking while Lauren
Speaker 11: and I were that She kind of you know, wanted
Speaker 11: to talk.
Speaker 2: To Dad a bit later.
Speaker 11: I mean they were arguing, but you know, not yelling
Speaker 11: or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Crystal said that she did not hear her mother make
Speaker 1: any comments about going back to the Byron Street flat.
Speaker 11: I mean, at that age, I was thinking maybe mum
Speaker 11: and dad might sort things out and you know, get
Speaker 11: back together.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham then remind Crystal of the parts of her
Speaker 1: statement where she described having been woken up and put
Speaker 1: in the car with some clothing Lauren and the family pet.
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess some things are stick in your
Speaker 2: head more than others.
Speaker 11: But at that point in time, I was sitting in
Speaker 11: the car and Lauren was next to me, and I
Speaker 11: had my dog on my lap, and I because, I mean,
Speaker 11: I always got Lauren to askings because of reasons.
Speaker 1: But Crystal became distressed. She could not go on, do.
Speaker 13: You want to break? For a couple of minutes, Crystal
Speaker 13: take a short Breakstarge.
Speaker 1: She had begun to describe her reluctance to ask John
Speaker 1: questions and how Lauren would.
Speaker 5: Then take on this role.
Speaker 1: After regathering her composure, Crystal came back and was offered
Speaker 1: a support person to sit with her.
Speaker 8: Ma'am in the car on the way down to Sydney.
Speaker 8: Do you remember stopping anywhere?
Speaker 2: See, I can't. I can't be quite sure that it
Speaker 2: was the same night.
Speaker 11: I mean, we did go to Sydney a couple of
Speaker 11: times after that night, but I'm pretty sure we stopped
Speaker 11: on the way down outside for Dad to.
Speaker 2: Have a rest.
Speaker 11: I think it was a deserted petrol station. It was
Speaker 11: old and it didn't look functioning. It wasn't functioning anymore.
Speaker 11: But yeah, I'm not sure whether that.
Speaker 2: Was that night.
Speaker 8: Do you remember stopping somewhere and playing with the dog
Speaker 8: for example?
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, we stopped. It was daylight at that time
Speaker 11: and we needed to stop to let the dog go
Speaker 11: to the toilet. And I think it was kind of
Speaker 11: on the side of the road and it was just
Speaker 11: a hill that we'd stopped somewhere.
Speaker 1: Crystal said she slept for most of the drive to Sydney.
Speaker 8: Do you remember stopping at the hair cell on and
Speaker 8: meeting up with Jody?
Speaker 2: No, I don't.
Speaker 8: Do you remember being taken to Jenny Mason's house? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I remember being there. Yeah.
Speaker 8: And do you remember how long you were there?
Speaker 5: For?
Speaker 2: Pretty much the afternoon? Yeah?
Speaker 8: And do you remember then going to the Reed's house.
Speaker 11: I mean, I couldn't be certain it was the same day,
Speaker 11: but I remember going there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was an illuminating exchange. In my view, Crystal
Speaker 1: was direct and firm about one thing. She had no
Speaker 1: memory of stopping at the hair salon and meeting up
Speaker 1: with Jody. Matt Fordham already appeared to have suspicions about
Speaker 1: whether such a stopover had occurred. Let's consider the timeline.
Speaker 1: John had a receipt for the purchase of petrol at
Speaker 1: eleven o six pm at the Ampole service station in
Speaker 1: Ballaner the night before, but that is only evidence of
Speaker 1: the time he bought fuel. It's not evidence of the
Speaker 1: time he left Ballana to drive south. More likely, in
Speaker 1: my view, is that John drove back to the house
Speaker 1: in Sandstone Crescent after buying petrol, put Bromwin's body in
Speaker 1: the back seat, drove down Granite Street, where.
Speaker 5: He was seen by Judy Singh.
Speaker 1: Around midnight, and then, for whatever reason, changed his mind
Speaker 1: about disposing of Bromwin's body locally, returned to the house,
Speaker 1: where he moved Bromwin's body to the boot of the
Speaker 1: Ford Falcon, hastily packed clothes in pillowcases and told the
Speaker 1: two girls to get into the.
Speaker 5: Car for a drive to Sydney.
Speaker 1: But he didn't have a lot of time because he
Speaker 1: was leaving Lennox Head closer to one am in this scenario,
Speaker 1: not two hours earlier eleven oh six pm. If this
Speaker 1: theory is right, there was no time for a stopover
Speaker 1: at the hair salon before he turned up at his
Speaker 1: former wife Jennifer Mason's house.
Speaker 8: You say that you went to bed and you could
Speaker 8: hear them arguing outside your bedroom. Do you remember how
Speaker 8: long that argument went?
Speaker 11: For?
Speaker 2: Probably about half because I think I was pretty tight.
Speaker 2: I mean I usually fall asleep within half an hour.
Speaker 8: And do you remember what time you were woken up
Speaker 8: and placed into the car?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I mean I thought it was around
Speaker 2: I don't know. No, I'm not quite sure, but it
Speaker 2: was around one or something.
Speaker 8: Do you remember was there anything else inside the car?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 11: But I mean I remember as we were leaving, Dad
Speaker 11: was grubbing a few things, like packing them into bags,
Speaker 11: and we were walking out the door.
Speaker 2: He carried Lauren to the car.
Speaker 8: I walked.
Speaker 11: I have a feeling Lauren was already in the car
Speaker 11: when I was there. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lauren was
Speaker 11: already in the car.
Speaker 8: I think you were present earlier when you heard mister
Speaker 8: Nolan described the car rolling down without the engine on
Speaker 8: and the car bottoming out as it entered the roadway.
Speaker 8: Do you have any memory of that at all?
Speaker 2: Dad often did that. Yeah, I can't be certain.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Crystal about whether she recalled stopping for
Speaker 1: fuel at the Pied Piper Ampole service station in Ballina
Speaker 1: before they left the region for the drive south, and
Speaker 1: Crystal replied yes, she did remember something about that, but
Speaker 1: then she said, I.
Speaker 11: Was seeking Oh it's daylight and I didn't want to
Speaker 11: see anyone in my pajamas.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Crystal did not clarify whether she might have been
Speaker 1: confusing this stopped for fuel with a different one, but
Speaker 1: she recalled that John was drinking a lot of coffee.
Speaker 1: He must have been exhaust.
Speaker 11: Yeah, he was very tired. Yeah, he just looked tired.
Speaker 11: I think there was a lot going on at that time.
Speaker 11: We were all going through a lot at that time.
Speaker 11: He looked very tired and very pale.
Speaker 13: Ma'am.
Speaker 8: You say in your statement that your father does not
Speaker 8: want you to speak to the police about what happened
Speaker 8: that night. Was there anything that your father said to
Speaker 8: you that makes you say that.
Speaker 11: I think it was more the fact that I felt
Speaker 11: Dad never really wanted to talk about it. I mean,
Speaker 11: he never specifically said, I don't want you to speak
Speaker 11: to the police about it, But I mean I was
Speaker 11: in the car of a number of times when people
Speaker 11: Glenn I think, had wrung him and he was going
Speaker 11: off with them for ringing us when the kids are here,
Speaker 11: and so I kind of got the impression he didn't.
Speaker 2: Want me to go in.
Speaker 11: I know, after I'd gone and made my statement, Dad
Speaker 11: had got him really angry with me about it, simply
Speaker 11: because he wanted Jody to be there.
Speaker 1: Crystal said that she had explained to John that she
Speaker 1: was accompanied by one of her school teachers for the
Speaker 1: making of her police statement, but John was not happy
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 11: He asked me, who'd you go with, and I said, well,
Speaker 11: you're at school. Yeah, He said, I wanted Jody to
Speaker 11: be there when you made your statement.
Speaker 2: I guess he kind of was thinking that they were
Speaker 2: twisting our words or whatever.
Speaker 11: When he asked for a copy of my statement, I
Speaker 11: said I couldn't find it. He said, because I'm worried
Speaker 11: because I need a copy.
Speaker 1: Cristel added that John told her the copy would be
Speaker 1: for his solicitor or his barrister. Crystal used both those
Speaker 1: words for a lawyer, and she added that John said
Speaker 1: people had.
Speaker 2: Been twisting his words and people's words or something.
Speaker 1: Crystal confirmed that she was in John's care until she
Speaker 1: was fourteen, and then she went to live with Liz
Speaker 1: and Clive Gardner, a couple from a church, which Crystal
Speaker 1: had become close to. Describing John's situation as at two
Speaker 1: thousand and two, Crystal said, Lauren was still at home.
Speaker 2: They've got a house.
Speaker 11: Well, they've got a double block of wear and they've
Speaker 11: built a house for Jody's family, and Dad's building a
Speaker 11: house for Lauren and him.
Speaker 1: Next, you'll recall a brief exchange earlier in this episode
Speaker 1: when Jody was being questioned. Here's a reminder, have.
Speaker 8: You ever received any financial gifts from your father of
Speaker 8: a substantial nature? No, ma'am. Over the years since your
Speaker 8: mother has disappeared, has your father indicated to you where
Speaker 8: she may have gone.
Speaker 2: We've never talked about it.
Speaker 11: I think the only person I ever spoke to was Jodi,
Speaker 11: and Jody would tell me things that she heard. I mean,
Speaker 11: I think that's where the motorbike things come from. I mean,
Speaker 11: I was told her one stage by Jody that Mum
Speaker 11: had been seeing I'll justly be missing on the back
Speaker 11: of a motorbike by one of her friends, you know,
Speaker 11: and things like that. I guess Lauren and I kind
Speaker 11: of felt like were left out of it a bit.
Speaker 11: Lauren was telling me last night or the night before that,
Speaker 11: Jody said to her that if Mum will passed her
Speaker 11: in the streets, she wouldn't recognize her because she was
Speaker 11: going funny in the head.
Speaker 2: And I mean things like that.
Speaker 11: I mean I was told, you know, we talked about
Speaker 11: how her mum had done the same thing, and whether
Speaker 11: that was to make us feel better about it or
Speaker 11: like her, and things. I don't know, but it was said,
Speaker 11: and I mean, those things stick in your head because
Speaker 11: we want to believe them.
Speaker 8: I guess you've since found out, of course, that the
Speaker 8: issue of Bronwin's mother leaving. I think the truth is
Speaker 8: that she went overseas for a few years and came back,
Speaker 8: and she was with her own mother throughout that time,
Speaker 8: and it may not have been as big an issue
Speaker 8: as may have been thought soon after nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 8: Is that your understanding now.
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, just sitting here and listening to how
Speaker 11: many people Mum used to keep the regular contact with,
Speaker 11: I just think, well, you think she would have contact
Speaker 11: at least one person.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked about a signet ring it belonged to Crystal,
Speaker 1: and the mention of it prompted some potentially important evidence
Speaker 1: from her.
Speaker 2: Well, that's actually what I find really strange.
Speaker 11: Like, I mean, I don't know at the time whether
Speaker 11: it was in a handbag, but I had a signet
Speaker 11: ring that was given to me when I was very young,
Speaker 11: and it was broken at that point in time, it
Speaker 11: had split, and I swore she had it in a
Speaker 11: handbag because she was going to get it fixed, because
Speaker 11: I remember going through a handbag one time and finding
Speaker 11: it and thinking, oh, Mom, you're gonna go.
Speaker 2: Get this fixed. And I just swore it was in
Speaker 2: a handbag.
Speaker 11: And then not that long ago, a couple of years ago,
Speaker 11: or maybe three years ago, Laura said, oh, look, well Dad.
Speaker 2: Gave me and it was my ring.
Speaker 11: And I thought, that's my signet ring and I recognized
Speaker 11: it straight away, and it was just the strangest thing,
Speaker 11: and I thought, oh, well, maybe it wasn't in a bag.
Speaker 2: I don't know. It was just weird.
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle must have heard it with a heavy heart.
Speaker 1: John had claimed that when Bromman walked out the door
Speaker 1: on the night of May sixteen, nineteen ninety three, she
Speaker 1: took her handbag. If Crystal's ring was inside that handbag,
Speaker 1: how did it materialize some five years later as a
Speaker 1: gift from John to Lauren. Had John taken valuable such
Speaker 1: as jewelry and cash from the handbag when broman disappeared.
Speaker 8: Had it been repaired?
Speaker 11: No, it still had to split. I took it offer well,
Speaker 11: I asked for it if I could have it.
Speaker 8: And the last time that you saw that signal ring
Speaker 8: was when your mother had it. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Crystal said that neither she nor Lauren spoke up about
Speaker 1: there being no photographs of their mother in the house.
Speaker 1: All the framed family portraits were taken away. If an
Speaker 1: awkward question needed to be asked, Crystal said she would
Speaker 1: ask Lauren to do this.
Speaker 11: Because I knew that he would let her have anything
Speaker 11: I get it to ask, Oh, you know, we should
Speaker 11: see if we can get a look at our baby photos.
Speaker 2: Or something like that.
Speaker 11: So she would always ask, but he'd say, oh, I
Speaker 11: don't know where they are.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked whether Lauren had talked about what
Speaker 1: she remembered on the night of the trip to Sydney.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 11: I spoke to her about it just recently. She came
Speaker 11: to stay with me when she had holidays. Like I mean,
Speaker 11: I've spoken to her previously, like about it a long
Speaker 11: time ago as well. But I said it to her
Speaker 11: again and she told me exactly the same thing she said.
Speaker 11: I got up and wanted to the room, and Mom
Speaker 11: was sitting on the coffee in the middle of the
Speaker 11: room as she was crying, and she quickly wiped her
Speaker 11: tears away as if nothing was wrong, and she said,
Speaker 11: come on, Lauren, get back to bed, you know, and
Speaker 11: popped her into bed and tucked her in, and she said,
Speaker 11: everything's fine, you know, I'll see you in the morning.
Speaker 1: Crystal added something else. It was from the time they
Speaker 1: were staying in the rented property after moving out of
Speaker 1: the house and Bromwin was on the.
Speaker 11: Telephone and I just heard Mom saying, Jody, you have
Speaker 11: no idea, you should just keep out of it, and
Speaker 11: she was crying.
Speaker 2: It was really hard time for everyone.
Speaker 1: When I asked about the garage of the house at
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent, Crystal described it as their playroom.
Speaker 11: It was where we spent all our time with our friends.
Speaker 11: We weren't allowed in the house when dad wasn't home.
Speaker 11: We weren't even allowed in the house when he was
Speaker 11: home and we were with our friends.
Speaker 8: Did he used to leave you for periods inside the
Speaker 8: garage and lock the door to the house.
Speaker 11: Yeah, when he went surfing, or when he went shopping
Speaker 11: or whatever, just all the time. I guess never really
Speaker 11: thought anything about it. He might offer and leave us
Speaker 11: some musely bar I'd say, Lauren, aren't you hungry?
Speaker 2: Asked that if we can have something to eat?
Speaker 1: Crystal's evidence had been poignant. The nineteen year old had
Speaker 1: opened a window to behaviors and events which were sad
Speaker 1: and deeply suspicious. John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, began asking Crystal
Speaker 1: about her stay with Clive Gardner, the pastor in the church,
Speaker 1: and his wife.
Speaker 2: Well, Dad kind of said to me that he was
Speaker 2: going to Sydney intro do some work.
Speaker 12: And did he ask you, do you want to come
Speaker 12: to the city.
Speaker 2: Well, I said, I didn't want to go. I wanted
Speaker 2: to be around my friends.
Speaker 11: I wanted to finish my school there, and so I
Speaker 11: asked I wanted to stay there, and I mean, Lauren
Speaker 11: wouldn't actually go with him. I mean, when I lived
Speaker 11: with the gardeners, I felt like part of their family.
Speaker 1: The lawyer spent some time going over the layout of
Speaker 1: the house, trying to establish Crystal's proximity to the telephone, which,
Speaker 1: according to John Bromwin had used in the bedroom to
Speaker 1: make a call to a stranger to pick her up
Speaker 1: on that fateful night.
Speaker 5: He then asked Crystal.
Speaker 1: About John's concern over his words being twisted in the
Speaker 1: statement Crystal had made. She said that she understood its
Speaker 1: importance and that its contents were what she truthfully remembered
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight of the events of five years earlier.
Speaker 2: I'd heard the rumors. I live in the same town.
Speaker 2: I just assume you know. Of course, he was concerned
Speaker 2: for himself about what has been said.
Speaker 12: Mark Davis says that you told him Bronwin had been
Speaker 12: diagnosed schizophrenic but didn't believe the doctors and didn't take
Speaker 12: her medication. Was that something that Bronwin told you or
Speaker 12: did you hear it from some other source.
Speaker 2: No, that was Jodie that told me.
Speaker 1: Speaking of her mother, Cristel added that she had not
Speaker 1: heard her mother behaving strangely as had been claimed.
Speaker 2: Nothing seemed weird about her at all, like in that way.
Speaker 1: Crystal recalled that when they were packing the house, her
Speaker 1: father said to her, grab your and.
Speaker 2: Then I followed him into the car.
Speaker 11: I just remember this because I was sitting in the
Speaker 11: car and Lauren was sitting next to me, and I
Speaker 11: guess we're both wondering at the time, you know, what's
Speaker 11: going on?
Speaker 2: Where's mom?
Speaker 11: And I think I said something to her and she
Speaker 11: says something to dad, where's mom.
Speaker 1: Karl Milavanovitch, the deputy state coroner, broke the momentary silence.
Speaker 13: Ask your clok Berg, you.
Speaker 1: Certainly, your worship, And then the police officer, Matt Fordham,
Speaker 1: surprised many of those sitting in the courtroom. He revealed
Speaker 1: that the other witness planned for that day was Jonathan Winfield.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer was quickly back on his feet.
Speaker 12: Your worship. I've given mister Winfield the traditional legal advice
Speaker 12: that a person gets given in this position, and that
Speaker 12: is to rely upon the provisions of Section thirty three
Speaker 12: of the Coroner's Act.
Speaker 13: Section thirty three is an immunity from prosecution.
Speaker 12: The right to silence. I'm advising mister Winfield to avail
Speaker 12: himself of that right.
Speaker 13: Well, that is his right.
Speaker 14: He's not required to give evidence unless you simply want
Speaker 14: him to take the witness stand and give his name
Speaker 14: and simply.
Speaker 13: Put on the record.
Speaker 5: We could do that for mality.
Speaker 14: I think that's appropriate because he is a witness in
Speaker 14: these proceedings.
Speaker 1: The idea that John Winfield would be compelled to answer
Speaker 1: questions under oath like everyone else, was thrilling to meaning
Speaker 1: in the public gallery. Unlike everyone else, John was at
Speaker 1: risk of self incrimination. Our legal system boasts a powerful
Speaker 1: and long standing principle. If an accused person a suspect
Speaker 1: in a crime is compelled or forced to give evidence
Speaker 1: which could incriminate that person, then there is a protection
Speaker 1: The resulting answers, if they are, for example, admissions which
Speaker 1: might indicate guilt or involvement in a crime, cannot be
Speaker 1: used in a future criminal proceeding, such as a murder
Speaker 1: trial of that person. That's the immunity which the Deputy
Speaker 1: State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was talking about.
Speaker 8: Sir, could you please tell us your full name, Jonathan Winfield, Sir,
Speaker 8: is it the case that you've sought some legal advice
Speaker 8: from your barrister in relation to answering questions at this inquest?
Speaker 8: Is that correct?
Speaker 13: That's correct?
Speaker 8: And so is it the case that, based on this
Speaker 8: legal advice, you wish to raise an objection under section
Speaker 8: thirty three to giving answers to any questions that we
Speaker 8: ask you.
Speaker 5: That's correct.
Speaker 8: I've nothing further, you worship.
Speaker 1: Try to put yourself in john shoes. By two thousand
Speaker 1: and two, it's been nine years since Bromwin disappeared, and
Speaker 1: you're insistent that you have done nothing wrong and you
Speaker 1: should want to help authorities in every possible way to
Speaker 1: try to find your estranged wife, the mother of your
Speaker 1: youngest daughter, Lauren, and her sister Crystal. But John was
Speaker 1: stone silent. His legal protection was paramount. Shortly before this
Speaker 1: episode was released, I spoke to Andy about John's brief
Speaker 1: appearance in the witness box.
Speaker 5: Andy used the.
Speaker 1: Expression pleading the Fifth, a reference to the phrase used
Speaker 1: in the United States justice system when witnesses rely on
Speaker 1: the Fifth Amendment and the right to silence. When John
Speaker 1: stepped up to give evidence, do you remember that and
Speaker 1: do you recall whether.
Speaker 5: That was a surprise to you?
Speaker 3: The only question he answered was his name and you're
Speaker 3: pleating the fifth yep. I think Matt only asked him
Speaker 3: two questions, and cultures stopped it there.
Speaker 1: On that note, John Winfield walked back to his chair
Speaker 1: and sat down next to his lawyer, Matt Fordham offered
Speaker 1: a summation of where things were at the Detective Sergeant
Speaker 1: Graham Diskin was a likely no show, but there was
Speaker 1: still Wayne Toby, who had worked with Detective.
Speaker 5: Discin during those lame.
Speaker 1: Inquiries made in nineteen ninety three. Detective Temby had then
Speaker 1: worked on the case with Glenn Taylor from nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 5: The coroner spoke next, I.
Speaker 14: Probably would have some reservations as to what it is
Speaker 14: detective seeing it Constable Tenby would be able to add
Speaker 14: to this inquiry, although I suppose we won't know the
Speaker 14: answer to that unless he was here. It really seems
Speaker 14: that the real impetus into investigation didn't really start until
Speaker 14: Detective Sergeant Taylor took courage.
Speaker 13: Of the matter.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Legget and the police officer presenting the
Speaker 1: case at the inquest. Matt Fordham then agreed that rather
Speaker 1: than have Detective Temby giving evidence under oath, they would
Speaker 1: have a short adjournment and telephone him on his mobile phone.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett only wanted to know whether Detective Temby had
Speaker 1: any recollection of a witness, saying in nineteen ninety three
Speaker 1: that the Ford Falcon drove up sense and present not
Speaker 1: down it. But after some further conversation between John and
Speaker 1: his lawyer, the idea was abandoned. Detective Temby would be
Speaker 1: neither telephone to clarify anything, nor call to give evidence.
Speaker 14: And he's going to be relying on running sheets that
Speaker 14: were made nearly nine years ago. And he said no
Speaker 14: statement that he's made that will refresh his memory or
Speaker 14: a statement that he made a lot earlier that would
Speaker 14: perhaps be a reliable and concience record of his recollection
Speaker 14: at the time.
Speaker 1: This was an unfortunate turn of events in my view,
Speaker 1: because the coronial inquiry really should have tried to glean
Speaker 1: relevant evidence from the Detective Wayne Temby. He was working
Speaker 1: with Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three. They
Speaker 1: spoke to Bromin's friends, neighbors, and family members. In two
Speaker 1: thousand and two, Karl Milavanovitch, as Deputy State Coroner, was
Speaker 1: frustrated at the lack of police documentation from nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: and the unexplained failure of Discan and Temby to take
Speaker 1: a single witness statement. Their police running sheets were a
Speaker 1: very poor and lazy substitute for signed witness statements. In
Speaker 1: two thousand and two, Discan clearly was not going to
Speaker 1: go to the inquest to explain why there were such
Speaker 1: gaping holes in what should have been a serious investigation
Speaker 1: into a missing young mother, but the next best option
Speaker 1: was the younger police officer Wayne Temby. There were good
Speaker 1: reasons for Sergeant Matt Fordham to call Temby to give
Speaker 1: evidence under oath. A subpoena should have compelled him to
Speaker 1: bring his police notebook, refer to it wherever he needed,
Speaker 1: and answer obvious questions about why so little was done
Speaker 1: by he and Discan when the trial was relatively fresh.
Speaker 1: In my view, Glen Taylor also should have taken a
Speaker 1: statement from Temby at the start of Taylor's nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: eight Investors destigation. Instead, Glenn had to try to rely
Speaker 1: on and make sense of a hodgepodge of incomplete evidence
Speaker 1: and running sheet entries, which Discan and Tembe were largely
Speaker 1: responsible for in nineteen ninety three. It's a remarkable fact
Speaker 1: that during the public hearings for the inquest in two
Speaker 1: thousand and two, Glenn Taylor was being shown for the
Speaker 1: first time bits of evidence from nineteen ninety three, such
Speaker 1: as Broman's writings and diary notes. What was going on
Speaker 1: in the ball and A police station. I have talked
Speaker 1: to a retired police officer who worked there and knew
Speaker 1: the detectives in nineteen ninety three. He described the culture
Speaker 1: and work ethic in the most unflattering terms. Its shaped
Speaker 1: up as a dream job, a quiet town with affordable
Speaker 1: housing and great beaches, surfing and fishing. But there were
Speaker 1: serious crimes and unsolved murders too, And the retired cop
Speaker 1: told me that he and another officer in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three would say to each other.
Speaker 8: If you're going to commit a murder in Australia, do
Speaker 8: it in Ballina without a tecticy. You get away with.
Speaker 1: It by not calling Wayne Temby to give evidence at
Speaker 1: the inquest in two thousand and two, the reputations of
Speaker 1: Ballener police were unlikely to be damaged. Par truth about
Speaker 1: the failures and shortcomings in the original police investigation of
Speaker 1: Broman's disappearance would be largely withheld from the journalists, Broman's
Speaker 1: friends and family, and members of the public attending the
Speaker 1: Lismore courthouse each day. In this way, New South Wales
Speaker 1: police avoided media scrutiny and acute embarrassment for having failed
Speaker 1: the mother of two. We do not have Graham Diskin's
Speaker 1: side of the story, nor do we have Wayne Temby's side.
Speaker 1: The former police detectives from Ballina were approached to be
Speaker 1: interviewed by me at an early stage of this podcast investigation.
Speaker 1: The offer remains open. Here's Bromwin's sister Melissa, reflecting on
Speaker 1: the performance of police. Melissa attended the inquest Glenn Taylor.
Speaker 2: He was certainly convinced that there'd been foul play. I
Speaker 2: wish that he'd been the person on the case when
Speaker 2: it happened, because I think that would have been very different.
Speaker 3: What more did they need?
Speaker 2: They needed a body? We did not have a body?
Speaker 1: Was that the last time you saw John at the
Speaker 1: Inquesse So last time I spoke to Andy and Michelle
Speaker 1: about it while this episode was being finalized. What we
Speaker 1: know is that the police investigation in ninety three was
Speaker 1: completely negligent and incompetent. Yes, what we don't know is why,
Speaker 1: for what reason?
Speaker 15: Well, it was Bromman's disappearance one of many other investigations
Speaker 15: that were just swept to the side and not bothered with.
Speaker 15: I wonder how many other people from that area are
Speaker 15: finding themselves listening to your podcast and thinking, Yeah, they
Speaker 15: didn't do anything.
Speaker 2: When this happened. Is this a one off or a
Speaker 2: general way it.
Speaker 15: Worked out of that police station with certain people.
Speaker 1: Late in the afternoon of the fourth day of the
Speaker 1: inquest in Lizmon in two thousand and two, the Deputy
Speaker 1: State Coroner gave his cue to Matt Fordham. The police
Speaker 1: officer had a lot to say. It was his damning
Speaker 1: of the case against John Winfield, but it does not
Speaker 1: appear in the official transcript of the inquest. For whatever reason,
Speaker 1: submissions and closing addresses were not transcribed. Somebody provided me
Speaker 1: with the document which Matt Fordham read in court that afternoon.
Speaker 1: In fairness to John, it would have been preferable to
Speaker 1: balance the ledger with the submission which his lawyer, Craig
Speaker 1: Legot made at the inquest. The following day, I reached
Speaker 1: out to Craig Legget in Sydney to ask him. However,
Speaker 1: mister Leggett respectfully declined. And just a reminder, although Craig
Speaker 1: Legot has been mentioned many times in the podcast, he
Speaker 1: has not personally.
Speaker 5: Been involved in it.
Speaker 1: The real Craig Legate sounds like this. I found a
Speaker 1: snippet on YouTube from one of his legal presentations.
Speaker 13: After everybody, my name's Craig Leggett.
Speaker 2: I'm a senior counsel from Martain Place Chambers.
Speaker 1: Nor have you heard the voices of John or Crystal,
Speaker 1: or Lauren or Jody in this podcast? Maddie's younger sister
Speaker 1: Tiana voiced Crystal's evidence. They are related by blood and
Speaker 1: of course they know each other. John, Crystal, Lauren and
Speaker 1: Jody still have standing invitations to be interviewed in this
Speaker 1: podcast investigation. Now here's the voice actor for Matt Fordham
Speaker 1: from the inquest in two thousand and two. This is
Speaker 1: an edited version of what he told the court and
Speaker 1: the deputy State coroner that day in the presence of
Speaker 1: John and Roman's family and friends.
Speaker 8: Brongwin was known to be very close to her two daughters. However,
Speaker 8: neither they nor her friends or blood family have received
Speaker 8: any contact from her. This is extremely out of character
Speaker 8: for her. Doreen Strong of the Family Support Service states
Speaker 8: that Bronwin had no intention of leaving her kids and
Speaker 8: in fact wanted to maintain sole custody of the kids.
Speaker 8: This is confirmed by her attendants at solicitors to arrange
Speaker 8: an application in the family court. Her uncle John Reid
Speaker 8: states that around Christmas nineteen ninety two, Bronwan was left
Speaker 8: stranded in Sydney by Jonathan Winfield and complained of being
Speaker 8: assaulted by him. He saw bruising on Bronwyn's arm. Her
Speaker 8: cousin Megan Reid, also stated that Bronwin complained of being
Speaker 8: assaulted and being forced into aborting a pregnancy against her will.
Speaker 8: Not long before her disappearance, Bronwin asked her sister in law,
Speaker 8: Michelle Reid, to look after her children if anything was
Speaker 8: to happen to her. Bronwyin did not have any independent
Speaker 8: source of financial support other than the accounts, which have
Speaker 8: not been touched since she disappeared.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham said Bromwyn had expressed concern to her near
Speaker 1: neighbor Alan Fisher, about what would occur when Jonathan Winfield
Speaker 1: returned to Lennox from Sydney. Bromwin stated that she was
Speaker 1: quote terrified about what he might do unquote. Matt Fordham
Speaker 1: said Bromwin was very stressed in the days before her disappearance.
Speaker 1: She had told Desiree Flood on the afternoon of Sunday
Speaker 1: May sixteen that she was expecting problems when John arrived
Speaker 1: from Sydney, and that Desiree should not worry if she
Speaker 1: were to hear a commotion. Matt Fordham spoke, of course,
Speaker 1: about John, his movements, his intentions, and his versions of
Speaker 1: what had happened.
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield states that he saw Bronwin get up and
Speaker 8: walk silently out the front door of the premises, and
Speaker 8: that he heard the sound of the car leaving. Mister
Speaker 8: Winfield tries to explain Bronwin's disappearance as being due to
Speaker 8: her being mentally ill and living with other people. There
Speaker 8: is no confirmed contact with Bronwyn, since she took no
Speaker 8: belongings and none were taken from her flat. She has
Speaker 8: not contacted any family, nor her friends, nor her kids
Speaker 8: since the night she disappeared. That night, Jonathan Winfield immediately
Speaker 8: put the kids into their family car and left the house.
Speaker 8: He attends a service station at eleven o six pm
Speaker 8: where he buys petrol and gas before he drives almost
Speaker 8: non stop to Sydney, arriving about nine am the following day.
Speaker 8: He drops the kids with relatives, strangely shows them the
Speaker 8: receipt from the petrol purchase at a previous night, and
Speaker 8: is not seen for the rest of the day. His
Speaker 8: movements at this time are not precisely known and are suspicious.
Speaker 8: There is strong evidence of flight from the scene. Jonathan
Speaker 8: Winfield's only explanation as to why he would take the
Speaker 8: kid's overnight back to Sydney within hours of his arrival
Speaker 8: in lenox Head is that the kids apparently travel better
Speaker 8: at night. He does not explain why he would fly
Speaker 8: back to lennox Head with all of his clothes, his surfboard, etc.
Speaker 8: And then leave hurriedly without these things. His arrival in
Speaker 8: Sydney was not expected by relatives, and he does not
Speaker 8: appear to have taken the kids for holidays, as he
Speaker 8: did not take suitable clothing for the kids and in
Speaker 8: fact spends little time with him in Sydney. Also, when
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield arrived on Michelle Reid's doorstep with the kids
Speaker 8: on seventeen May nineteen ninety three, he appeared quite shaky.
Speaker 8: When the neighbors entered the Winfield's house after Bronwn went missing,
Speaker 8: they noticed that it was untidy, foods on plates, wet
Speaker 8: washing in the machine, and beds not made. This was
Speaker 8: strikingly unusual, and it appeared to the neighbors that the
Speaker 8: house had been left in a hurry. Jonathan Winfield only
Speaker 8: reported Bronwin as missing after her brother, Andrew Reid, suggested
Speaker 8: that he might do so. At the time Bronwin allegedly
Speaker 8: walked out of the house, Jonathan Winfield did not know
Speaker 8: for how long she would be gone. He left no
Speaker 8: note for her explaining where he was taking the kids,
Speaker 8: and although this could have been to get back at her,
Speaker 8: this conflicts with his version that he phoned the house
Speaker 8: to check on Bronwyn's welfare. Jonathan Winfield was very concerned
Speaker 8: about losing the house that he built. He was aware
Speaker 8: that possession of the house was a significant factor to
Speaker 8: be considered by any tribunal determining a property settlement, and
Speaker 8: would have been keen to remain in the family home.
Speaker 8: If he thought that Bronwyn was likely to divorce him,
Speaker 8: at the very least, he would not have wanted Bronwyn
Speaker 8: to retain possession of the home. The legal advice received
Speaker 8: by Bronwyn shortly before her disappearance suggested that she would
Speaker 8: be entitled to a significant percentage of the assets if
Speaker 8: the couple divorced, and that it was expected that she
Speaker 8: would retain custody of both Lauren and Crystal, and that
Speaker 8: Jonathan would incur liability to pay child maintenance. There is
Speaker 8: strong evidence that Jonathan Winfield was a possessive husband who
Speaker 8: did not allow his wife any financial or social freedom.
Speaker 8: This conflicts with his version that he did not challenge
Speaker 8: Bronwan about where she was going late at night when
Speaker 8: she allegedly walked out of the house. Being possessive of
Speaker 8: both his wife and the house, one can imagine his
Speaker 8: reaction when he arrived back to his own home and
Speaker 8: found that the locks had been changed and that his
Speaker 8: bags had been packed. Jonathan Winfield has been very against
Speaker 8: any media release associated with the disappearance of his wife,
Speaker 8: and even today has expressed to police his disliked for
Speaker 8: publicity about the matter. Bronwin has disclosed to her friend
Speaker 8: Denise Barnard, that Jonathan Winfield had been violent towards her
Speaker 8: and she was scared of further assaults. She stated that
Speaker 8: she was tired of Jonathan Winfield's possessive manner and planned
Speaker 8: to leave with the kids. Bronwan had disclosed to another
Speaker 8: friend that Jonathan Winfield had threatened to kill her if
Speaker 8: she ever bad mouthed him in public. Only days prior
Speaker 8: to her disappearance, Browin gave instructions to a solicitor, Mister mcdebott,
Speaker 8: and on fourteen May nineteen ninety three, a solicitor's letter
Speaker 8: was sent to Jonathan Winfield indicating that the house and
Speaker 8: car would be contested in a property settlement. Jonathan Winfield's
Speaker 8: first wife, Jenny Mason, describes an incident to where Jonathan
Speaker 8: tried to kill her, how he was possessive and demanded
Speaker 8: a totally clean house and would not allow her to
Speaker 8: smoke inside the house. Compare this with the fact that
Speaker 8: dirty ashtrays were found by neighbors when they broke into
Speaker 8: the home, which would indicate that Bronwin had been smoking
Speaker 8: inside the home, not expecting Jonathan to continue to live there.
Speaker 8: The fact that Jonathan left the house so suddenly, with
Speaker 8: half eaten food left on plates, where washing left in
Speaker 8: the machine, and dirty ashtrays is totally outside the character
Speaker 8: for him. On fourteen May nineteen ninety three, the solicitors
Speaker 8: acting for bronwin sent Jonathan a letter indicating that she
Speaker 8: proposed to pay the outstanding registration fees for the nineteen
Speaker 8: eighty six Falcon so that the vehicle would be registered
Speaker 8: in her name only and she alone would use it.
Speaker 8: Jonathan was potentially going to have to part with eighteen
Speaker 8: percent of his income to child maintenance. Jonathan's previous wife
Speaker 8: d describes him as being possessive and how when they separated,
Speaker 8: he did not want her to claim her share of
Speaker 8: the property settlement. The other previous wife, Jenny Mason, also
Speaker 8: described an incident where Jonathan threatened to kill her and
Speaker 8: strangled her neck until she kicked his groin and escaped.
Speaker 8: Jenny Mason confirms that Jonathan did not bring any clothing
Speaker 8: with the kids when he took them to Sydney. The daughter,
Speaker 8: Crystal Winfield, describes how her father would lose control and
Speaker 8: hit her mother on one occasion. Jonathan through crystal against
Speaker 8: a wall.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham told the Deputy State Coroner that the version
Speaker 1: of events proffered by John Winfield can be discounted conclusively
Speaker 1: because of several flaws. The police officer added that there
Speaker 1: was sufficient evidence for a court to find guilt on
Speaker 1: what was, of course a circumstantial case. Matt Fordham set
Speaker 1: out some of what he regarded as the fundamental flaws
Speaker 1: in John's version.
Speaker 8: The medicare check was signed allegedly by Bronwin at a
Speaker 8: space on the document where it should have been signed
Speaker 8: by the medical practitioner. This is a basic error which
Speaker 8: would not have been made by a person with Bronwyn's
Speaker 8: work experience. The neighbor was convalescing on the lounge in
Speaker 8: the front room of his home throughout the time in
Speaker 8: which Jonathan Winfield alleges that Bronwin seemed walked out of
Speaker 8: the house and got into an awaiting vehicle. The gradient
Speaker 8: of Sandstone Crescent is such that a vehicle would either
Speaker 8: leave by traveling down the hill into the view of
Speaker 8: mister Nolan, or else it would travel up the hill,
Speaker 8: which would require significant revving of the vehicle's engine. Mister
Speaker 8: Nolan neither saw nor heard any vehicle stop and then
Speaker 8: leave outside Sandstone Crescent that evening, apart from the Windfields
Speaker 8: Ford Falcon sedan which bottomed out. Mister Nolan also recognized
Speaker 8: the suspicion attached to this disappearance within a few weeks
Speaker 8: because he went to the rear of his property and
Speaker 8: opened the lid of a sewer pit which bordered the
Speaker 8: Winfield's property in which he suspected Bronlan's body may have
Speaker 8: been stored. During a visit of the site during the inquest,
Speaker 8: mister Nolan pointed out a wire harness which was still
Speaker 8: attached to the sewer lid as being the harness he
Speaker 8: construct did in order to open it soon after the disappearance.
Speaker 8: The folly of Jonathan Winfield's version was immediately obvious to
Speaker 8: Bronwan's sister in law, Michelle Reid. Missus Reed also noted
Speaker 8: that it was strange that the children did not have
Speaker 8: adequate clothing brought with them, and that Jonathan had told
Speaker 8: her that Bronwan left the house at ten thirty PM
Speaker 8: or ten forty five PM, which was different to his
Speaker 8: subsequent versions. Jonathan Winfield later tells people that Browan left
Speaker 8: the house at an earlier time, which would be consistent
Speaker 8: with him making up those details. He also appears to
Speaker 8: have made up details about a car stopping outside the house,
Speaker 8: as he did not inform missus Reed of that on
Speaker 8: the morning that he and the children arrived in Sydney.
Speaker 8: Any benign explanation of Bronwan Winfield's disappearance would require that
Speaker 8: she totally disregarded her two children. A number of witnesses
Speaker 8: described her as being a devoted mother who would not
Speaker 8: have left the kids. That does not appear to be
Speaker 8: any credible evidence that she was involved heavily with a
Speaker 8: religious group, and police inquiries with the suggested boyfriend, Gary Jackson,
Speaker 8: reveal that she did not run off with him. The
Speaker 8: only suggestion supporting these theories is the fact that Bronwin's
Speaker 8: own mother was forced to go overseas and leave her
Speaker 8: kids due to mental illness when her kids were very young. However,
Speaker 8: there is no evidence of this in relation to Bronwin.
Speaker 8: For Bronwin not to contact her children after almost a
Speaker 8: decade is I submit, highly suggestive that she is deceased.
Speaker 8: There is absolutely no evidence that anyone other than Jonathan
Speaker 8: Winfield had any motivation or opportunity to kill Bronwin. The
Speaker 8: little break which the deceased referred to in her diaries
Speaker 8: does not necessarily mean that the deceased intended to leave
Speaker 8: her children completely. The diaries do not suggest that the
Speaker 8: deceased voluntarily left her home late on a Sunday night,
Speaker 8: and in any event, do not suggest any reason for
Speaker 8: her to leave her children. It is my respectful submission
Speaker 8: that there is only one rational hypothesis available on these facts.
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield killed Bronwin Winfield on the sixteenth of May
Speaker 8: nineteen ninety three. The most likely method of carrying out
Speaker 8: the killing was by strangling or smothering the deceased, as
Speaker 8: no evidence of a struggle, weapons, or bloodstains were found
Speaker 8: inside the house when neighbours entered in the days after
Speaker 8: the disappearance. A jury will, in my submission, recognize the
Speaker 8: compelling nature of the admissible evidence available against the suspect
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield. Accordingly, I submit that the tests under Section
Speaker 8: nineteen of the Coroner's Acts have been satisfied and that
Speaker 8: a jury would convict Jonathan Winfield of Bronwin's murder.
Speaker 1: It was a compelling build up and then a powerful lending.
Speaker 1: Karl Milavanovitch spoke up and he told the court that
Speaker 1: he was of the view that he could find on
Speaker 1: the evidence that Bronwyn joy Winfield.
Speaker 14: Is in fact deceased. I think the evidence that we
Speaker 14: have heard in the last four days regarding Bronwyn would
Speaker 14: suggest that, notwithstanding that she had some difficulties in her life,
Speaker 14: there is no suggestion that she intended simply to disappear
Speaker 14: off the face of the earth, and perhaps disappear in
Speaker 14: a sense of joining our commune or just dropping out
Speaker 14: of life. The overwhelming inference is that she must be deceased,
Speaker 14: and I think the evidence is very clear.
Speaker 13: And persuasive in that regard. She had plans even in
Speaker 13: the immediate.
Speaker 14: Days after her disappearance. She had plans to see a solicitor.
Speaker 14: She had plans to look after the children. We have
Speaker 14: all seen and learned a little bit more about Bronwin
Speaker 14: in the last four days, about her personality, about her
Speaker 14: devotion to her children, and it is beyond conceivable belief
Speaker 14: that she would have just disappeared and have made no
Speaker 14: contact with anybody over the last nine years.
Speaker 1: He referenced the strange events with Jodie Winfield, suggesting Bromwin
Speaker 1: was alive and well and living out Nimben Way.
Speaker 14: And one perhaps wonders what the motivation behind that evidence was,
Speaker 14: whether it was to frustrate this inquiry or whether it
Speaker 14: was genuine. But be that as it may, there is
Speaker 14: no positive, affirmative or definitive or reliable sighting of Bronwyn
Speaker 14: other than by mister Winfield, one of the witnesses in
Speaker 14: these proceedings, being the last person, and perhaps Kristall and
Speaker 14: Lauren to have seen her alive. The evidence, in my
Speaker 14: view is overwhelming that she is in fact deceased, and
Speaker 14: I am prepared at this stage of the proceedings to
Speaker 14: make that ruling that I am satisfied that Bronwin Joy
Speaker 14: Winfield is in fact deceased.
Speaker 1: But under the Coroner's Act, Karl Milavanovitch could not stop there.
Speaker 1: He was also required to make findings about the date, time,
Speaker 1: and manner of her death. It was late in the
Speaker 1: day the Deputy State Coroner wanted John and his life
Speaker 1: lawyer to have some time overnight to consider their position.
Speaker 14: O can, perhaps, in fairness, indicate at this stage that
Speaker 14: I'm considering terminating the proceedings and recommending that a known
Speaker 14: person be charged with an indutable offense.
Speaker 1: Andy recalled that you could have heard a pin drop
Speaker 1: without naming the known person. The deputy state Coroner was
Speaker 1: flagging that he believed John Winfield should be charged with murder.
Speaker 14: I will be giving reasons in detail to the Attorney General,
Speaker 14: but that is in confidence in relation to me sending
Speaker 14: the brief, the transcripts and my reasons. But I'm happy
Speaker 14: to hear any submissions tomorrow tomorrow morning.
Speaker 12: Yes, thank you, your worship.
Speaker 1: The fifth and final day of the inquest, on Friday
Speaker 1: May thirty one, two thousand and two, started at ten
Speaker 1: twenty am. Craig Leggott kicked proceedings off with a surprise
Speaker 1: new witness. His name was Clive Ian Gardner. His daughter
Speaker 1: and Crystal were friends. The Gardner family had looked after
Speaker 1: Crystal when she was in her teens and no longer
Speaker 1: living with John and Lauren.
Speaker 3: I'm a pastor with the Christian Outreach Center in Ballana.
Speaker 12: I understand you went somewhere last night in the company
Speaker 12: of someone I did. Would you tell his worship who where?
Speaker 8: Okay?
Speaker 3: I went to Broadwater in the company of John Winfield,
Speaker 3: who asked me to come to approach Detective disc in.
Speaker 3: John had a statement that he wanted the detective to
Speaker 3: read and if he agreed with it to sign. That's
Speaker 3: what I knew beforehand.
Speaker 13: When we got there.
Speaker 3: We approached the house, there was a lady in the
Speaker 3: front yard who brought us in and called I assume
Speaker 3: her husband, who came out. John introduced himself as John Winfield.
Speaker 3: The detective said, I can't talk to you. John approached
Speaker 3: him to say, I've just got a statement here I'd
Speaker 3: like you to read, and he really didn't get the
Speaker 3: full sentence out. He just said again, I can't talk
Speaker 3: to you. And John tried one more time, and the
Speaker 3: third time he said I can't talk to you, and
Speaker 3: then we left.
Speaker 12: And I understand that you formed some impression based on
Speaker 12: that conversation.
Speaker 3: Well, I'd have to recognize him as a man of authority.
Speaker 3: It's just in his tone of voice, the way he
Speaker 3: said it, the words he chose.
Speaker 1: It was not disclosed how John knew Graham Discin's home address.
Speaker 1: I talked to Michelle and Andy about it. They went
Speaker 1: to Graham Diskin's house that evening.
Speaker 15: When it got mentioned on the Friday morning in the
Speaker 15: court ran it was like, how does John know where
Speaker 15: Graham discon lives and why did he go there?
Speaker 2: That was a surprise.
Speaker 8: We didn't know that he.
Speaker 2: Tried to get him decide stat Debt.
Speaker 5: What do you but believe that was.
Speaker 1: About Well, I've never seen the document that he tried
Speaker 1: to present to Discan, so I don't know, but I'm
Speaker 1: assuming that John wanted Discan to agree to certain things
Speaker 1: in the document, facts that John would claim he told Discot.
Speaker 5: And I think the timing's interesting.
Speaker 1: That happens on the Thursday night, probably a couple of
Speaker 1: hours after the Deputy State Coroner has told the court
Speaker 1: it's curtains.
Speaker 2: For you, John, expect exactly.
Speaker 1: So this would have been a last ditch bid by
Speaker 1: John to try to introduce some new evidence that could
Speaker 1: have changed the coroner's mind. The following morning, Graham Discin
Speaker 1: or his wife must have telephoned Ballon of police when
Speaker 1: John Winfield turned up unexpectedly at Discan's home. Ballener Police
Speaker 1: took some action that Thursday evening. They alerted Murray Nolan
Speaker 1: and Deb Hall at their house in Sandstone Crescent that
Speaker 1: John was highly agitated and on the move. Murray and
Speaker 1: Deb told me how that unfolded. So it's the last
Speaker 1: night of the inquest, He's gone to Discan's house and
Speaker 1: we're fre around the house, banging on the walls, and
Speaker 1: so the police have rang us up and told us
Speaker 1: to lock the doors.
Speaker 16: A patrol car around to patrol our house because they
Speaker 16: were worried about John.
Speaker 2: He was so angry because it was.
Speaker 16: All unfolding at the inquest that he was going to
Speaker 16: be nabbed, and he wanted Discan to be coming to
Speaker 16: that inquiry to vouch for him. And I think disc
Speaker 16: And knew he would be under scrutiny being a police officer,
Speaker 16: so he chose to not come to the inquiry. Disc
Speaker 16: but I think he also realized that he messed up
Speaker 16: from the initial stages. Glen Taylor said to me, and
Speaker 16: I can remember him telling you this. He said, I
Speaker 16: can only apologize to you for what the police didn't do.
Speaker 1: Back then.
Speaker 4: John Winfield went down to the Distan's home with a document.
Speaker 4: He went down there during his inquest and confronted disc
Speaker 4: and said would you read to sign this? And Discan
Speaker 4: said no, how did you know where dis can live?
Speaker 4: I don't have that answer. It seemed very odd. I
Speaker 4: quite no evidence to say that they were friends outside
Speaker 4: of the investigation. Now what was in that document?
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 1: The coronial proceeding run by Karl Milvanovitch in the old
Speaker 1: Lismore courtouse was almost over. He directed a question to
Speaker 1: Craig Leggot.
Speaker 13: No other evidence has been called today.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer had already given his submissions on behalf of John.
Speaker 5: Craig Legatet had no more to say.
Speaker 1: And then the Deputy State Coroner directed a question to
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham, the hard working police officer who had pulled
Speaker 1: so much of the case together.
Speaker 13: Sergeant do you wish to respond to any matters?
Speaker 1: Matt had nothing to add.
Speaker 14: I think it's important for everyone to understand a little
Speaker 14: bit about a coroner's role, but perhaps a little bit
Speaker 14: about the history of the position in the context of
Speaker 14: the evidence that's unfolded in this court in the last
Speaker 14: five days. The role of coroner is perhaps one of
Speaker 14: the oldest judicial roles in our legal history, which we
Speaker 14: inherited from England. The position of coroner has expanded to
Speaker 14: the point where coroners now have an obligation under the
Speaker 14: Coroner's Act to investigate deaths that are reported to a
Speaker 14: coroner or suspicious deaths and to make certain statutory findings
Speaker 14: which are requirements under the Act. Of course, in this inquest,
Speaker 14: as we well know, there is nobody. This was not
Speaker 14: a matter that was reported to the coroner, as most
Speaker 14: traditional matters are. When somebody dies and there is a
Speaker 14: suspicion attached to their death, and there is a body,
Speaker 14: and there may be a crime seat where there is
Speaker 14: no body, of course, it is difficult for the coroner
Speaker 14: to make certain findings. But I am able, of course,
Speaker 14: on the evidence to make the findings that I indicated
Speaker 14: that I would be prepared to make yesterday, and that
Speaker 14: is that I am satisfied on the evidence that I
Speaker 14: have heard yesterday and over the last four or five days,
Speaker 14: that brodenwin Joy Wingfield is in fact deceased. The fact
Speaker 14: that she was very devoted to her children, the circumstances
Speaker 14: in which she left without taking any clothing, without there
Speaker 14: being any operation of her bankcout counts, the fact that
Speaker 14: there's been no affirmative sightings or confirmed sightings or any
Speaker 14: contact that she has made with any members of the
Speaker 14: family satisfy me at the requisite level that she is
Speaker 14: in fact deceased. A coroner's matter is somewhat difficult in
Speaker 14: relation to matters where a known person may be considered
Speaker 14: to be a person of interest. The first finding that
Speaker 14: the coroner has to determine is that he is satisfied
Speaker 14: that the evidence is capable of satisfying a jury beyond
Speaker 14: reasonable doubt that a known person has committed an indictable offense.
Speaker 14: And then the coroner has a second leak to consider
Speaker 14: under section nineteen, and that is whether there is a
Speaker 14: reasonable prospect that a jury would convict a known person
Speaker 14: on the evidence. The difficulty is that under section nineteen,
Speaker 14: I am not allowed to name a known person in
Speaker 14: relation to applying my reasonings for that test.
Speaker 1: While the Deputy State Coroner was legally constrained from stating
Speaker 1: the obvious, there are no such constraints on me or
Speaker 1: this podcast. The known person was, of course right there
Speaker 1: staring back at Karl Milvanovitch, John Winfield.
Speaker 14: People sitting in this court over the last week might
Speaker 14: feel that this is a trial. It is not a trial.
Speaker 14: There is no defend before this court. There is no
Speaker 14: person charge with any criminal offense. It is an inquisition,
Speaker 14: and it is an inquiry where there are no strict
Speaker 14: rules of evidence. There is a lot of evidence that's
Speaker 14: been allowed into this inquest.
Speaker 13: I am prepared, however.
Speaker 14: To make this comment in relation to mister Leggat's submission.
Speaker 14: In regard to the likelihood that Bromwin Winfield in fact
Speaker 14: left of her own accord.
Speaker 1: Karl Milvanovitch mentioned the telephone records showing calls being made
Speaker 1: to Country Link, an indication of Bromwin's interest in the
Speaker 1: timetables for public transport, particularly trains.
Speaker 14: The fact that there are telephone calls to CountryLink, and
Speaker 14: the fact that she talked in letters that about there
Speaker 14: was going to be a change that she was going
Speaker 14: to go away, is not necessarily inconsistent with the fact
Speaker 14: that she still disappeared on the night of sixteen may
Speaker 14: under circumstances which I'm not consistent with her seeking to
Speaker 14: go away for a holiday.
Speaker 1: As you have heard earlier in the podcast, Bromman was
Speaker 1: also making plans to host her sister, Kim Marshall, who
Speaker 1: would be traveling from Tasmania and would have needed to
Speaker 1: take public transport from Sydney for her trip to Lenox.
Speaker 1: Carl then spoke of the challenges Bromwin was facing.
Speaker 14: One has to remember that in that two week period
Speaker 14: before she disappeared on sixteen May, she was going through
Speaker 14: perhaps the most difficult time of her life. She had
Speaker 14: made a decision, firstly, sometime earlier to move out of
Speaker 14: the matrimonial home. I don't think there can be any
Speaker 14: doubt that she perceived her marriage as having come to
Speaker 14: an end, and she had made a very perhaps bold
Speaker 14: decision and a brave decision to move back into the
Speaker 14: matrimonial home. She knew what the consequences of that would be.
Speaker 14: She knew that it would involve FORHPS litigation. She knew
Speaker 14: that it would involve emotions. She knew that possibly she
Speaker 14: was even anticipating that it would require a reunion of
Speaker 14: Crystal with her true father and making contact with that
Speaker 14: part of the family. And she was planning that. She
Speaker 14: was going through what appears to me a very difficult time.
Speaker 14: The fact that she made notes and wrote letters is
Speaker 14: perhaps a way in which I perceive that she tried
Speaker 14: to rationalize all these various things that were going through
Speaker 14: her mind. She knew solicitors were writing letters. She knew
Speaker 14: that those letters were going to contain matters on her
Speaker 14: instructions to her solicitor, which included that she wanted a
Speaker 14: property settlement, that she wanted sole ownership of the family
Speaker 14: motor vehicle, and maybe she thought this is a good
Speaker 14: time to take the children away for a couple of
Speaker 14: weeks while all those things are happening. It's totally consistent
Speaker 14: with perhaps her making some comment that I'm going to
Speaker 14: go away, and even comments like you will see a change. Well,
Speaker 14: what about the notation in her diary Modeling and Self
Speaker 14: Improvement Course nineteenth to twenty June, Lismore Workers Club. This
Speaker 14: woman had plans, She had plans for the future, she
Speaker 14: had appointments with solicitors, she was going to disconnect the
Speaker 14: telephone at the flat, she was going to get the
Speaker 14: car registered, And if she was going to go away,
Speaker 14: it certainly wasn't on the night of sixteen May, with
Speaker 14: no clothing, no suitcases, and without telling her children. I
Speaker 14: am satisfied and I make this finding that she died
Speaker 14: on or about sixteen May in the state of New
Speaker 14: South Wales. I now terminate this inquest pursuant to Section nineteen,
Speaker 14: being satisfied that the evidence is capable of satisfying a
Speaker 14: jury beyond reasonable doubt that a known person has committed
Speaker 14: an indictable offense, and there is a reasonable prospect that
Speaker 14: the jury would convict the known person of an indictable offense.
Speaker 14: May I, on behalf of my court and on behalf
Speaker 14: of my staff, extend my personal sympathy to the family
Speaker 14: and friends of Bronwyn joy Winfield.
Speaker 13: That ends my role as corridor in these proceedings.
Speaker 1: It also ends my role for some weeks in this
Speaker 1: third season of the Bromwin podcast series. As you've heard,
Speaker 1: we are now pausing production the finishing touches to this episode.
Speaker 1: The day before its release, two subscribers were happening on
Speaker 1: Bromwin's birthday, April twenty four, and very soon Bromwin will
Speaker 1: have been missing for thirty two years. Does anyone seriously
Speaker 1: believe that Bromwin was so annoyed with John or that
Speaker 1: some mythical sugar daddy was so persuasive and well off
Speaker 1: that this deeply devoted mother of two voluntarily stayed away
Speaker 1: from her girls, her family all that time, thirty two
Speaker 1: years without contact or sightings by anyone. How was such
Speaker 1: a compelling case relegated to the too hard basket by
Speaker 1: the Office the Director of Public Prosecutions twenty three years ago,
Speaker 1: after Carl's inquest wrapped up. When we come back, we
Speaker 1: will try to find out now for something different. My
Speaker 1: talented friend Matt Condon, crime writer, author, podcaster and investigator,
Speaker 1: and a sneak preview of his new podcast series, The
Speaker 1: Gangster's Ghost.
Speaker 17: As a crime writer, I've always been fascinated by Stuart
Speaker 17: John Reagan or Johnny Reagan, the psychopath's psychopath in terms
Speaker 17: of Australian criminal history. He burnt like an Oxyuscettlen torch
Speaker 17: through Sydney from the mid sixties until he was gunned
Speaker 17: down by three assassins. And by chance, I've got acquainted
Speaker 17: with a cousin of Johnny Reagan, Kelly Slater. Reagan contacted
Speaker 17: me and said, look, we'd like to look more seriously
Speaker 17: into our long dead relative and see whether he was
Speaker 17: as big a monster as everyone says he was.
Speaker 18: I'm an ex police officer and cousin of Johnny Reagan.
Speaker 18: We're looking at doing a podcast on him, the good,
Speaker 18: the bad, the ugly, mostly the two Ladder, but his
Speaker 18: childhood as well. We have letters and recordings that have
Speaker 18: never been heard. Looking for help to make it work.
Speaker 18: Kelly Slater Regan.
Speaker 17: Kelly almost as an Aside said to me, We've got
Speaker 17: the tapes, and I had to stop and ask her
Speaker 17: what do you mean by the tapes. The family had
Speaker 17: possession of some secret, real to real audio tapes that
Speaker 17: Reagan himself had recorded on his home and office phones,
Speaker 17: making dozens and dozens of discussions with crooks.
Speaker 13: Law is.
Speaker 17: The idea of these tapes bring the voice of the
Speaker 17: dead gangster to the listener's ears was absolutely irresistible. Reagan
Speaker 17: was a lunatic, a maniac, a ruthless killer. He was
Speaker 17: a gunman, a standover man, a rat with a gold tooth,
Speaker 17: a con artist, a business genius, and a crook with
Speaker 17: movie star good looks who had an explosive temper.
Speaker 1: They said.
Speaker 17: He murdered up to twelve people, and prior to his
Speaker 17: death he had developed what may have been the greatest
Speaker 17: land scam in Australian history.
Speaker 13: You shouldn't have made it chard interested in.
Speaker 8: You're lying in a third flighter.
Speaker 17: You're sitting in the same room with the ghost of
Speaker 17: a gangster who's been dead for fifty years. He even
Speaker 17: took a concealed miniature cassette recorder out into the streets
Speaker 17: of King's Cross and Darlinghurst and captured conversations with other
Speaker 17: criminals and crooked cops.
Speaker 1: Corrupt cops, one of whom I heard in the first
Speaker 1: episode of your series.
Speaker 17: In my research over fifteen years for true crime books,
Speaker 17: I've interviewed an amazing cast of characters. I would shoot
Speaker 17: the breeze with Roger Rogerson about what he thought of Reagan.
Speaker 17: This is the notorious former New South Wales detective and
Speaker 17: convicted murderer, Roger Rogerson.
Speaker 16: You can control a badman, but you can't control a madman.
Speaker 13: I've never ever forgotten.
Speaker 17: You will soon be hearing a lot of the gangster's ghost,
Speaker 17: as clear as if the killer himself had pulled up
Speaker 17: a chair at your kitchen table and settle down for
Speaker 17: a cup of tea and a chat. And now, incredibly,
Speaker 17: the question is this was Johnny Reagan, in fact, Roger
Speaker 17: Robinson's first kill.
Speaker 1: With this story, you're dealing very closely with Kelly Reagan
Speaker 1: and other members of the Reagan family because they hold
Speaker 1: the keys to a lot of the information upon which
Speaker 1: you are relying tapes and other documents, family artifacts. Reagan
Speaker 1: was a terrible person, a monster, a psychopath, a serial killer.
Speaker 1: How do you manage the sometimes unavoidable tension where family
Speaker 1: members want to see their relation possibly depicted one way,
Speaker 1: whereas you know that the truth it goes the other way.
Speaker 17: Very good question, and it's an important question for a
Speaker 17: story like the You have a family here, relatives of
Speaker 17: this dead gangster who want to go deeper and to
Speaker 17: get a sharper focus on what he was actually like
Speaker 17: Kelly Slater, Reagan becomes a sort of co pilot on
Speaker 17: this journey. Kelly and I had a very frank discussion saying, look,
Speaker 17: the risk here is that you discover a bigger monster
Speaker 17: than you ever knew existed before. That's how dangerous and
Speaker 17: monumentally violent he was. They're fully prepared, the Reagans are
Speaker 17: fully prepared for the horrors that they might find, and indeed,
Speaker 17: I can say they will find some on this journey.
Speaker 17: And we've found some fascinating things, and we've found some
Speaker 17: extraordinary color, and we've found some horrific details.
Speaker 1: The first episode was riveting. I look forward to hearing
Speaker 1: everything else in it.
Speaker 17: Thanks so much.
Speaker 1: Adley Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas
Speaker 1: as a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has
Speaker 1: information which may help solve this cold case.
Speaker 5: Please contact me.
Speaker 1: Confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Common and David Murray,
Speaker 1: with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast
Speaker 1: series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by
Speaker 1: Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a
Speaker 1: relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this kind
Speaker 1: of journalism with the support of our subscribers and our
Speaker 1: major sponsors like Harvey Norman.
Speaker 5: For all of our exclusive.
Speaker 1: Stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents about this podcast and
Speaker 1: other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The
Speaker 1: Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver,
Speaker 1: go to The Australian dot com, dot au and subscribe