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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. On the

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Speaker 1: morning of Good Friday, April eighteen, twenty twenty five, one

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Speaker 1: week before the release two subscribers of this episode number

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Speaker 1: thirty two in the Bromwin series. I flew to Sydney

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Speaker 1: and went straight to Andy and Michelle's house in the Shire.

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Speaker 1: This was my third visit to their home in a

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Speaker 1: place that Andy proudly refers to as God's Country. We've

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Speaker 1: caught up multiple times elsewhere Good I I. We spoke

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Speaker 1: about a range of things. The evidence from the inquest

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Speaker 1: was on Andy's mind because he was rehearing it in

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Speaker 1: these in Quest episodes. He cannot understand why so much

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Speaker 1: evidence went missing. Here is one example. Andy had numerous

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Speaker 1: conversations with the detective Graham discin back in nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: but police running sheets documenting the concerns that Andy was

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Speaker 1: raising with Balano detectives in nineteen ninety three appear to

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Speaker 1: be missing from the record. However, a formal document which

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Speaker 1: purports to particularize a conversation between Bromwin's cousin Megan Reid

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Speaker 1: and Graham Discin in nineteen ninety three has survived and

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Speaker 1: forms part of the evidentiary record. It's the document that

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Speaker 1: paints John in a positive light while depicting Bromwin as

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Speaker 1: an unstable fantasist. Meghan emphatically denies saying the things attributed

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Speaker 1: to her in that document. Meanwhile, other relevant evidence appears

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Speaker 1: to have completely disappeared. Where is all the information and

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Speaker 1: the running shoots path?

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Speaker 2: The stuff's missing? Will we ever know the truth?

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Speaker 1: During the inquest they were still getting documents Bromman's letters.

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Speaker 1: That stuff was still being made available at a late

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Speaker 1: stage of the actual five days of hearings, and this

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Speaker 1: was material that Discin had originally received from John.

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Speaker 2: Nothing adds up.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be the last episode for some weeks.

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Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle have headed overseas for a long planned

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Speaker 1: holiday and there's a good prospect will catch up somewhere,

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Speaker 1: perhaps in the highlands of Scotland. At the end of

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Speaker 1: this episode, my very good friend and colleague Matt Condon

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Speaker 1: will share news about his upcoming podcast series called The

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Speaker 1: Gangster's Ghost. It will start coming out in May twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, when the weekly production of the Bromwin series

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Speaker 1: is on pause or a couple of months. What we'll

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Speaker 1: do then is have a season break. When you get back,

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Speaker 1: you're expecting to be able to sit down with senior police.

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Speaker 3: Yep, yes, I'm hoping to be able to go and

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Speaker 3: have a do.

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Speaker 4: Briefing with them, find out where we're at.

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Speaker 5: That sounds promising.

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Speaker 1: We reflected on the fact that fourteen months earlier, in

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Speaker 1: the same comfortable chairs in their lounge room, we recorded

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Speaker 1: our first interviews together. But back then we are not

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Speaker 1: aware of the evidence of Judy Singh, of the potential

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Speaker 1: significance of Illawong, the glaring inconsistencies in John's versions, and

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Speaker 1: the gaping holes in investigations by police. I didn't think

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Speaker 1: we'd still be talking about this and planning further episodes

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Speaker 1: more than a year later.

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Speaker 2: No, it's incredible, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: It's not tangible, but to me, it feels as if

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Speaker 1: there's been some change, potentially on the verge.

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Speaker 5: Of a breakthrough.

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Speaker 2: Feels like it, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: There are several more leads that I want to develop

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Speaker 1: in the podcast, and there's also George Radmore's cold case

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Speaker 1: review and further evidence that came to light through that.

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Speaker 1: It is also important, in my view to investigate and

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Speaker 1: report in this podcast how the then lawyers in the

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Speaker 1: Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in Lismore and

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Speaker 1: then it is in the head office in Sydney can

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Speaker 1: have come to the view that there was not enough evidence.

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Speaker 1: That was a view contrary to the unequivocal finding of

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Speaker 1: the then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milvanovitch, and you'll hear

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Speaker 1: his detailed reasons near the end of this episode. Karl's

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Speaker 1: judgment looks right, and the evidence in our view has

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Speaker 1: always been damning in relation to just one person.

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Speaker 5: But we can do that when you get back.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like a plan.

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Speaker 5: That's good.

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Speaker 6: The whole object of this is finding the truth, the

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Speaker 6: truth about what happened to Brohman, whatever that may be.

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Speaker 2: Now, the fact that it's sort of.

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Speaker 7: Narrowed itself down a path where it doesn't look like

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Speaker 7: anything else could have happened except for one thing, well,

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Speaker 7: that's just the way it is.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: Let's return to the inquest. It's day four. Matt Fordham

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Speaker 1: is revisiting the written statement of Jody's mother, Jennifer Mason

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Speaker 1: and how she had told police that John left the

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Speaker 1: two girls with Jennifer's mother in law, Joan Mason, and

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Speaker 1: that when John returned, he asked Jennifer to look after

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Speaker 1: them for a fortnight.

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Speaker 5: Matt Fordham asked, Jody.

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Speaker 8: Does it surprise you that someone with the parenting schools

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Speaker 8: of your father would not plan ahead for the childcare?

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Speaker 9: Well, yes, you know you would normally plan ahead, but

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Speaker 9: I mean didn't have time really, he just came back.

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Speaker 8: So, ma'am, I'll read out some further parts of your

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Speaker 8: mother's statement.

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Speaker 10: I came home one day from shopping in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 10: three and my mother in law, Brad's mother, said, you've

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Speaker 10: got two visitors out in the backyard. Both of the

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Speaker 10: children were dressed in pajamas. Joan told me that John

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Speaker 10: Winfield had turned up about an hour earlier and asked

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Speaker 10: if he could leave the kids at my house. There

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Speaker 10: were no clothes for the children that John brought. It

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Speaker 10: was about an hour after that when John arrived. I

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Speaker 10: said to him something like what's going on? John said,

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Speaker 10: I've got a big job on and nobody to look

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Speaker 10: after the kids. Can you look after them? For about

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Speaker 10: two weeks I'll pay you. I said, where's Bromwind. John

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Speaker 10: said she's gone off with a boyfriend. I said, I

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Speaker 10: can't look after them, You'll have to find someone else.

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Speaker 10: I'm in the process of packing and moving. I remember

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Speaker 10: thinking at the time it was strange he hadn't brought

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Speaker 10: any clothing for the children. It wasn't his normal character.

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Speaker 10: He usually liked to be organized. I found out later

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Speaker 10: through Jody that Bromward had gone missing from Lennox Head.

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Speaker 8: Ma'am, do you know apart from the registration of the car,

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Speaker 8: do you know anywhere else that Jonathan may have gone

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Speaker 8: and the hours around lunchtime on that day?

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Speaker 9: No, I don't.

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Speaker 1: Matt Fordham then asked Jody about her hairdressing apprenticeship. As

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Speaker 1: part of her training, she also went to a technical college,

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Speaker 1: and Jody said that her one day a week at

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Speaker 1: college would have been each Monday or Wednesday. The police

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Speaker 1: officer reminded Jody that she did not remember the family

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Speaker 1: dog being inside the car. When, according to Jody, her

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Speaker 1: father arrived with the two girls at the salon on

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Speaker 1: Monday morning, it seemed that he was doubting whether John

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Speaker 1: had even gone to the salon.

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Speaker 8: Ma'am but do you recall there was some journals inside

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Speaker 8: the car, Is that correct?

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Speaker 9: Yep, in the back.

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Speaker 8: Whereabouts in the back were they?

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Speaker 9: I don't know, And I was just talking to Dad

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Speaker 9: before I went back in. The boot was open and

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Speaker 9: he was getting something out for the kids. I don't

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Speaker 9: know what, but that's when he picked it up out

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Speaker 9: of the boot. I don't even know if I saw

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Speaker 9: what side of the boot, but he sort of picked

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Speaker 9: it up and went to show me. But I knew

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Speaker 9: I was getting called back inside, so I will not called.

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Speaker 9: But I knew I was getting looked at and needed

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Speaker 9: to be back inside, so I didn't have time to

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Speaker 9: go into anything with it.

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Speaker 1: Here for the first time, John's daughter was introducing evidence

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Speaker 1: of having seen inside the car's boot on the Monday morning.

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Speaker 1: She remembered this at the inquest during the lunch adjournment.

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Speaker 9: After just talking to Dad.

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Speaker 1: Now we have speculated that Bromwin's body was in the boot.

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Speaker 1: Matt Fordham's earlier questions about John's unknown movements after he

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Speaker 1: had dropped the two girls off at the home of

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Speaker 1: his ex wife were connected to a similar theory that

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Speaker 1: Bromwin's body was in the boot of the ford Falcon,

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Speaker 1: but neither the police officer nor Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor

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Speaker 1: knew then of the two paws of concrete at the

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Speaker 1: building site in Illawan where John had been working. It

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Speaker 1: only became known because we asked for building department documents

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Speaker 1: from the local southerland Shire Council.

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Speaker 8: Did you see anything else inside the boot?

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Speaker 9: No, not that I remember.

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Speaker 8: And these journals that you saw, could you describe them

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Speaker 8: to us?

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Speaker 9: It was just like a force cap page with no

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Speaker 9: front on it, and it just was pages of her writing.

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Speaker 9: I know her writing, and it was her writing and

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Speaker 9: just on a notebook sort of thing.

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Speaker 8: Did you see them inside the boot and pick them

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Speaker 8: up or did your father pick them up and hand

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Speaker 8: them to you?

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Speaker 9: From memory, I seem to seem sort of pulling them

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Speaker 9: out like, but I don't really I don't really.

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Speaker 8: Remember, I'm not And did he hand them to you?

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Speaker 9: No, I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked a flurry of questions. Did she read

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Speaker 1: the pages, did her father comment to her about them?

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Speaker 1: Did she get a look at them? Jody answered no.

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Speaker 8: You see, ma'am, today is the first time that you've

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Speaker 8: either told the police or his worship about seeing those

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Speaker 8: journals at the back of the car that day, isn't it.

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Speaker 9: I don't think so. I'm sure I told Detective Taylor

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Speaker 9: about that when he spoke to me.

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Speaker 8: You'd agree with me that there's absolutely no reference in

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Speaker 8: your statement too.

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Speaker 9: No, it's not in there. I know it's not in there.

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Speaker 9: I don't know why it wasn't written in my statement,

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Speaker 9: but I do sort of. I'm positive. I remember talking

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Speaker 9: to Detective Taylor and Detective Temby about it, and he

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Speaker 9: said something to the words of, yeah, well, we don't

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Speaker 9: know where that is now, like it disappeared, so and

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Speaker 9: I'm pretty confident and Detective Temby was there, so we

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Speaker 9: just left it at that.

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Speaker 8: Why did you tell Detective Temby in Detective Taylor about.

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Speaker 9: That, because he asked me if i'd seen into the

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Speaker 9: boot that day and what was in there, and that's

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Speaker 9: how the notebook came up.

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Speaker 8: In your discussions with your father over the years, have

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Speaker 8: you learnt the relevance of those documents?

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Speaker 11: No?

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Speaker 9: I haven't.

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Speaker 8: Actually, is there any reason why you didn't indicate it

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Speaker 8: to Detective Discan.

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Speaker 9: Detective disc In, I only spoke to Detective Discan for

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Speaker 9: about five minutes, and he asked me, nothing like that.

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Speaker 1: Jody was then asked again about how her father connected

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Speaker 1: with Rebecca Maguire to visit the house on Sunday evening.

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Speaker 1: Jody said that she had not put them in touch.

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Speaker 1: She said John had not talked to her about who

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Speaker 1: would be suitable to accompany him to Sandstone Crescent. Jody

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Speaker 1: seemed perplexed.

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Speaker 9: She didn't have the phone on. I don't think Matt.

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Speaker 1: Fordham went back to Broman's writings.

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Speaker 8: You'd agree that a journal would be some indication as

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Speaker 8: to a state of mind at the time she went missing,

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Speaker 8: wouldn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 8: And you'd agree with me that if the Reeds were

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Speaker 8: asking you about what had happened to Bronwin, you'd be

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Speaker 8: trying to provide them with all the information that you could,

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Speaker 8: wouldn't you.

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Speaker 9: I would assume.

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Speaker 8: So you certainly wouldn't be trying to hide anything, would you.

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Speaker 11: No?

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Speaker 8: And if you accept that your father at no stage

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Speaker 8: even told the Reeds about the existence of the journal,

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Speaker 8: doesn't that strike you as being strange?

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Speaker 9: Maybe? But my dad's a very private person.

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Speaker 8: So, ma'am, how many nights did the children and your

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Speaker 8: father stay with you at your flat? I don't recall,

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Speaker 8: where did the family dog stay.

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Speaker 9: I don't know. I didn't have the dog with me,

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Speaker 9: so I didn't know where the.

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Speaker 8: Dog was, ma'am. After the months have passed and Bronwin

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Speaker 8: hasn't returned, what happened to the jewelry that she owned?

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Speaker 9: I never really asked. I never I thought she would

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Speaker 9: have had it with her until the other day when

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Speaker 9: I saw the box.

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Speaker 8: She would have had earrings, she would have had necklaces,

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Speaker 8: she would have had bangles, She would have had a

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Speaker 8: range of jewelry, wouldn't she Probably Do you know what

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Speaker 8: happened to that?

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Speaker 9: No, I don't.

241
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Speaker 8: When you returned to the house at lanticx Head, at

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Speaker 8: some stage, did you ever inquire of your dad as

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Speaker 8: to what happened to the things that Bronwin owned.

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Speaker 9: I think at some stage I may have asked where

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Speaker 9: the clothes, where her clothes were or something, because I mean,

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Speaker 9: she you know, she didn't take much with her or whatever,

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Speaker 9: so I think he put them in a bag and

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Speaker 9: they were kept in the house for her. But I'm

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Speaker 9: not certain on that either.

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Speaker 8: To your knowledge, does your father still have any of

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Speaker 8: the jewelry that braun Went owned.

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Speaker 9: Well, I don't know. I've never asked him.

253
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Speaker 8: Were you told anything about a medicare check by your father?

254
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Speaker 9: I don't remember anything about the medicare.

255
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Speaker 8: Check now, ma'am. In the weeks that your father has

256
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Speaker 8: arrived down in Sydney after the sixteenth of May, did

257
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Speaker 8: you have any discussions with him about taking legal action

258
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Speaker 8: to protect his interests in the house.

259
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Speaker 9: Sorry, say that again.

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Speaker 5: Matt Fordham asked his question again.

261
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Speaker 1: Logically, if Bromin was alive and she had gone away

262
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Speaker 1: for a few days or a couple of weeks, she

263
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Speaker 1: would return and then the contest over the.

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Speaker 5: House would be on again.

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Speaker 1: John would surely talk to Jody about his plans to

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Speaker 1: counter Broman's determination to walk away from the failed marriage

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Speaker 1: with a part of their asset pul which was rightfully hers.

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Speaker 9: No, I never talked to him about the house.

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Speaker 8: You've never discussed the ownership of the house with your father, No,

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Speaker 8: not at all.

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Speaker 9: I know nothing about the legal part of any of

272
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Speaker 9: their stuff, both of them. My dad would never have

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Speaker 9: told me information like that, and Bronwin would never have

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Speaker 9: got me involved in.

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Speaker 8: Stuff like that. Do you think your father was concerned

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Speaker 8: about Bronwin running off with the children?

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Speaker 12: No?

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Speaker 9: Why is that well, there was never any reason for

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Speaker 9: her to run off with them.

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Speaker 8: Looking back on it now, don't you think that it's

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Speaker 8: strange the course of events that followed Bronlin's disappearance.

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Speaker 9: At the time, I didn't question it because, yes, my age,

283
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Speaker 9: if it happened now and the age I am, yes,

284
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Speaker 9: I would have had so many questions like everybody else does.

285
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Speaker 9: But at the time I didn't because I just I

286
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Speaker 9: just didn't.

287
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Speaker 8: Ma'am. Do you have any idea what may have happened

288
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Speaker 8: to Bronwin?

289
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 9: No, I don't.

290
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Speaker 8: You would have become quite close to Bronwin in the

291
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Speaker 8: years that you stayed with it, is that correct?

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Speaker 13: Yes?

293
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Speaker 9: I did.

294
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Speaker 8: She was very much a mother figure to you, wasn't she. Yeah,

295
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Speaker 8: And you'd agree with me that any sightings of Bronin

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Speaker 8: would be something that you would be keen of the

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Speaker 8: police to follow up very quickly an attempt to locate her.

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Speaker 9: Definitely, And you'd agree with me that.

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Speaker 8: If Bronin was located, then it would put everybody's mind

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Speaker 8: to rest, wouldn't it.

301
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 9: Definitely.

302
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham summarized Jody's actions earlier in the week, when

303
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 1: she indicated that she had received information on Monday morning

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Speaker 1: from a woman Kayleen, who had purportedly told Jody that

305
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Speaker 1: another woman, Joanne, may have seen Bromwin.

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Speaker 9: In Nimben out Nimbenweh was what she told me out Nimbenweh.

307
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Speaker 8: And do you agree with me that when the officer

308
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Speaker 8: in charge and I asked you some questions in relation

309
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 8: to who Joanne was and who the caller was, you

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Speaker 8: said words to the effect that you didn't want to

311
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Speaker 8: ask too many questions because you were scared that you

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Speaker 8: would scare her off.

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Speaker 9: Well, I got what I needed to get out of her,

314
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Speaker 9: and I didn't want to ask her last name. I had, however,

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Speaker 9: got Joanne's name and that she was married to Craig

316
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Speaker 9: and that was Mark Guthrie's brother. I thought that's all

317
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Speaker 9: I needed. And after I asked her if she has

318
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,159
Speaker 9: told the police this information, she said yes. I thought, well,

319
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 9: it would be in the statements. They can find her

320
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,080
Speaker 9: name through that. That's why I didn't push for anything else.

321
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,520
Speaker 8: But you'd agree with me that the information you're hearing

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Speaker 8: on Monday morning, it's a fairly extraordinary thing for people

323
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,679
Speaker 8: to ring you up and say that they may have

324
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Speaker 8: seen her.

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00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 9: Well, yes, especially being on the morning of it. But

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Speaker 9: I'm just I'm just relaying the information that I have.

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Speaker 9: I mean, what was I going to do, not turn

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00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,160
Speaker 9: up and say it. I had to say what happened.

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Speaker 1: The police officer pointed out that Jody had not inquired

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Speaker 1: of Kayleen's surname, nor had Jody asked about Bromwin's purported

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Speaker 1: whereabouts in Nimben.

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Speaker 9: No, because I didn't want to scare her off. I

333
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,119
Speaker 9: just knew that if her name was in the statements,

334
00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:58,360
Speaker 9: you'd be able to find her.

335
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Speaker 8: Why should she be scared?

336
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,920
Speaker 9: Because if she knew this, why didn't she come forward

337
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,919
Speaker 9: with it earlier? If Johanna told her years ago that

338
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 9: she thought she saw her, why didn't she come forward.

339
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,360
Speaker 9: I got the impression she didn't want to be involved,

340
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 9: so I just left it that way. I expect you

341
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 9: to take it further, not me.

342
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,080
Speaker 8: You weren't interested in finding out yourself?

343
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 9: Yes, I was, but I knew you would do that

344
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Speaker 9: for me.

345
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Speaker 8: You see, ma'am, I really can't believe that someone who

346
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Speaker 8: has lost a mother figure would simply say, well, I

347
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 8: won't ask any questions of this caller, I'll let police

348
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 8: follow it up. Have you ever received any financial gifts

349
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,880
Speaker 8: from your father of a substantial nature. No, you've obviously

350
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,480
Speaker 8: discussed the progress of this matter with your father leading

351
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 8: up to you today of this week.

352
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,960
Speaker 9: You mean, briefly, But Dad's trying. He doesn't get me

353
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,760
Speaker 9: involved in it. He does not involve me or influence

354
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,240
Speaker 9: me in any way whatsoever.

355
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Speaker 8: When you say he doesn't involve you, you'd agree with

356
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 8: me that on seventeen May nineteen ninety three, he involved you,

357
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 8: didn't he. Yes, Are you suggesting that your father hasn't

358
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,120
Speaker 8: spoken with you at all about the evidence that you've

359
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 8: heard at this inquest?

360
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 9: No, not really.

361
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 1: Jodie insisted that her father had not suggested to her

362
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 1: any of the evidence that she should give to the inquest,

363
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 1: and she said that he had definitely not influenced her

364
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,520
Speaker 1: in relation to her memory of events relevant to Bromwin's disappearance.

365
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 8: You see, ma'am, there must have been some information over

366
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,400
Speaker 8: the years that you've learned about Bronwin and her disappearance,

367
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 8: which you've learnt from your father.

368
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 9: There's lots of things I've learned about this whole thing

369
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,400
Speaker 9: over the years. And to be honest, like somebody said, rumors,

370
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 9: there are so many rumors that it's just like this

371
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 9: influx of information. You don't know where you get it

372
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 9: from half the time the stuff.

373
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 8: You hear, And ma'am, you'd agree that based on your

374
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 8: knowledge of Bronwin, she wouldn't be the person that would

375
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,399
Speaker 8: walk out on her children, would she.

376
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:00,240
Speaker 9: I wouldn't have thought so.

377
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 8: And therefore, ma'am, you must be surprised that Bronlin hasn't

378
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 8: returned after all this time.

379
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,200
Speaker 9: Yes, I am surprised, but you know there was things

380
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 9: going on with Bronwin at the time when she disappeared.

381
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 8: You're saying, ma'am, I'm suggesting it's unbelievable, really, that you

382
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 8: could lose this mother figure and these reported sightings occur,

383
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 8: and the medicare check arrives, and the clothes go missing,

384
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,439
Speaker 8: and you don't discuss these matters with your father.

385
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,400
Speaker 9: I don't discuss them in any great in any detail. No,

386
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,480
Speaker 9: if I've asked him questions, he'll answer me, and that's

387
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 9: about it. I don't recall any definite conversations. I think

388
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 9: we just assumed that whoever picked her up in the

389
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 9: car was a boyfriend.

390
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 8: And you agree, there's been a suggestion that Bronwin may

391
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 8: have run off with some religious group or something like that. Yeah,

392
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 8: I've heard that too, And none of these things you've

393
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 8: discussed with your father.

394
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 9: I mean, the way I see it is that you know,

395
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 9: if your wife walks out on you and disappears, it's

396
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 9: obviously something that's going to be upsetting for you. So no,

397
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,199
Speaker 9: I don't push him to talk. If he wants to

398
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 9: talk to me about it, of course I'm going to

399
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 9: talk to him, but I don't push him to talk

400
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 9: to me about it.

401
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham sat down. He was done with Jody. John's lawyer,

402
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett, stood to ask just a few questions. He

403
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 1: sought to develop Jody's characterization of Bromwin's behavior in May

404
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three.

405
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 12: What did you mean by that?

406
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,120
Speaker 9: Well, I'd heard a lot of things from friends people

407
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 9: around the town that she was acting at work and

408
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 9: the way she was acting with me that weren't her

409
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 9: normal behavior coming up to her disappearing.

410
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 12: Can you recall any specific examples of how she was

411
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 12: acting other than normally at that time?

412
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 9: I recall one night she rang me. I don't remember

413
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 9: what it was she was asking me. It was really

414
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,959
Speaker 9: late and I was asleep actually, and she said something

415
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 9: to me about drinking and drink driving any other incidents,

416
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 9: only the I was, you know, hearing she was riding

417
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 9: around town on the backs of motorbikes and things like

418
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 9: that through friends that I knew downtown and people were

419
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 9: saying things like she used to walk down the street

420
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 9: talking to herself and things like that, which was not,

421
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 9: you know, the Bronlin that I used to know, and

422
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 9: that was that.

423
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: Jodi was excused, got up and walked away.

424
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:47,640
Speaker 8: I call Crystal Winfield.

425
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 1: It was a bold move by the police officer presenting

426
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: the case to the deputy state coroner. The suspected murder

427
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: victim's daughter would give evidence and potentially implicate the man

428
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 1: she called dad. Karl Milavanovitch understood that the stakes were

429
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: getting higher. It would be hard enough for the youngest

430
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: witness at the inquest. He didn't want to add to

431
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: her burden.

432
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 14: Mister Leggett, I'm going to make a direction. Did the

433
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 14: evidence of Crystal be given in the absence of your

434
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 14: clothe and also in the absence of Jody made Yes, sir,

435
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 14: those persons will have to leave the court room.

436
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 12: Yeh, yes, yes, I understand.

437
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: Crystal Joy Winfield approached the witness stand as John and

438
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: Jody walked out of the Lismore courtroom.

439
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 14: Crystal, if you need to break at any time, just

440
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 14: let me know if you want a glass of water

441
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 14: or anything.

442
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham canvassed with Crystal Key parts of her police statement,

443
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: Crystal started to expand on some of it in her

444
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: oral evidence. She recalled seeing John on the night of

445
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three.

446
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 2: I remember Dad.

447
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 11: I mean, I don't know whether he left it that,

448
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 11: but I do remember him coming in and I do

449
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 11: remember sitting there watching TV with Luren and they were talking.

450
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 11: He was asking who's going to pay the bills?

451
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 8: You know.

452
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham then prompted Cristal with what she said next

453
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: in her statement about her mother telling her and Lauren

454
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: to clean their teeth and go to bed, and of

455
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: hearing her parents arguing and her mother crying.

456
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 8: Do you remember that happening?

457
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 15: Yeah?

458
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 2: I do, yeah, very clearly.

459
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 8: Do you remember was the argument a short one or

460
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 8: did it go for a long time?

461
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: I think it was kind of more discussion.

462
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 11: Mum was very worried about, you know, talking while Lauren

463
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 11: and I were that She kind of you know, wanted

464
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 11: to talk.

465
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 2: To Dad a bit later.

466
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 11: I mean they were arguing, but you know, not yelling

467
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 11: or anything like that.

468
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: Crystal said that she did not hear her mother make

469
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: any comments about going back to the Byron Street flat.

470
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 11: I mean, at that age, I was thinking maybe mum

471
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 11: and dad might sort things out and you know, get

472
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 11: back together.

473
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham then remind Crystal of the parts of her

474
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: statement where she described having been woken up and put

475
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: in the car with some clothing Lauren and the family pet.

476
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess some things are stick in your

477
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: head more than others.

478
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 11: But at that point in time, I was sitting in

479
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 11: the car and Lauren was next to me, and I

480
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 11: had my dog on my lap, and I because, I mean,

481
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 11: I always got Lauren to askings because of reasons.

482
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: But Crystal became distressed. She could not go on, do.

483
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 13: You want to break? For a couple of minutes, Crystal

484
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 13: take a short Breakstarge.

485
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: She had begun to describe her reluctance to ask John

486
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: questions and how Lauren would.

487
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 5: Then take on this role.

488
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: After regathering her composure, Crystal came back and was offered

489
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: a support person to sit with her.

490
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 8: Ma'am in the car on the way down to Sydney.

491
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 8: Do you remember stopping anywhere?

492
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 2: See, I can't. I can't be quite sure that it

493
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 2: was the same night.

494
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 11: I mean, we did go to Sydney a couple of

495
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 11: times after that night, but I'm pretty sure we stopped

496
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 11: on the way down outside for Dad to.

497
00:25:59,160 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 2: Have a rest.

498
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 11: I think it was a deserted petrol station. It was

499
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 11: old and it didn't look functioning. It wasn't functioning anymore.

500
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 11: But yeah, I'm not sure whether that.

501
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: Was that night.

502
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 8: Do you remember stopping somewhere and playing with the dog

503
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 8: for example?

504
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, we stopped. It was daylight at that time

505
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 11: and we needed to stop to let the dog go

506
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 11: to the toilet. And I think it was kind of

507
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 11: on the side of the road and it was just

508
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 11: a hill that we'd stopped somewhere.

509
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: Crystal said she slept for most of the drive to Sydney.

510
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 8: Do you remember stopping at the hair cell on and

511
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 8: meeting up with Jody?

512
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 2: No, I don't.

513
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 8: Do you remember being taken to Jenny Mason's house? Yeah?

514
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: I remember being there. Yeah.

515
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 8: And do you remember how long you were there?

516
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 5: For?

517
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: Pretty much the afternoon? Yeah?

518
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 8: And do you remember then going to the Reed's house.

519
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 11: I mean, I couldn't be certain it was the same day,

520
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 11: but I remember going there.

521
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was an illuminating exchange. In my view, Crystal

522
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: was direct and firm about one thing. She had no

523
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: memory of stopping at the hair salon and meeting up

524
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: with Jody. Matt Fordham already appeared to have suspicions about

525
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: whether such a stopover had occurred. Let's consider the timeline.

526
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: John had a receipt for the purchase of petrol at

527
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 1: eleven o six pm at the Ampole service station in

528
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: Ballaner the night before, but that is only evidence of

529
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: the time he bought fuel. It's not evidence of the

530
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 1: time he left Ballana to drive south. More likely, in

531
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: my view, is that John drove back to the house

532
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: in Sandstone Crescent after buying petrol, put Bromwin's body in

533
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: the back seat, drove down Granite Street, where.

534
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 5: He was seen by Judy Singh.

535
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: Around midnight, and then, for whatever reason, changed his mind

536
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: about disposing of Bromwin's body locally, returned to the house,

537
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: where he moved Bromwin's body to the boot of the

538
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: Ford Falcon, hastily packed clothes in pillowcases and told the

539
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: two girls to get into the.

540
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 5: Car for a drive to Sydney.

541
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: But he didn't have a lot of time because he

542
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: was leaving Lennox Head closer to one am in this scenario,

543
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: not two hours earlier eleven oh six pm. If this

544
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: theory is right, there was no time for a stopover

545
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: at the hair salon before he turned up at his

546
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: former wife Jennifer Mason's house.

547
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 8: You say that you went to bed and you could

548
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 8: hear them arguing outside your bedroom. Do you remember how

549
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 8: long that argument went?

550
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 11: For?

551
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: Probably about half because I think I was pretty tight.

552
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: I mean I usually fall asleep within half an hour.

553
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 8: And do you remember what time you were woken up

554
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 8: and placed into the car?

555
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I mean I thought it was around

556
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. No, I'm not quite sure, but it

557
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: was around one or something.

558
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 8: Do you remember was there anything else inside the car?

559
00:28:58,640 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 9: No?

560
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 11: But I mean I remember as we were leaving, Dad

561
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 11: was grubbing a few things, like packing them into bags,

562
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 11: and we were walking out the door.

563
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: He carried Lauren to the car.

564
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 8: I walked.

565
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 11: I have a feeling Lauren was already in the car

566
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 11: when I was there. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lauren was

567
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 11: already in the car.

568
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 8: I think you were present earlier when you heard mister

569
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 8: Nolan described the car rolling down without the engine on

570
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 8: and the car bottoming out as it entered the roadway.

571
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 8: Do you have any memory of that at all?

572
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: Dad often did that. Yeah, I can't be certain.

573
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Crystal about whether she recalled stopping for

574
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: fuel at the Pied Piper Ampole service station in Ballina

575
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: before they left the region for the drive south, and

576
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: Crystal replied yes, she did remember something about that, but

577
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: then she said, I.

578
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 11: Was seeking Oh it's daylight and I didn't want to

579
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 11: see anyone in my pajamas.

580
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Crystal did not clarify whether she might have been

581
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: confusing this stopped for fuel with a different one, but

582
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: she recalled that John was drinking a lot of coffee.

583
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: He must have been exhaust.

584
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 11: Yeah, he was very tired. Yeah, he just looked tired.

585
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 11: I think there was a lot going on at that time.

586
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 11: We were all going through a lot at that time.

587
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 11: He looked very tired and very pale.

588
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 13: Ma'am.

589
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 8: You say in your statement that your father does not

590
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 8: want you to speak to the police about what happened

591
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 8: that night. Was there anything that your father said to

592
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 8: you that makes you say that.

593
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 11: I think it was more the fact that I felt

594
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 11: Dad never really wanted to talk about it. I mean,

595
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 11: he never specifically said, I don't want you to speak

596
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 11: to the police about it, But I mean I was

597
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 11: in the car of a number of times when people

598
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 11: Glenn I think, had wrung him and he was going

599
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 11: off with them for ringing us when the kids are here,

600
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 11: and so I kind of got the impression he didn't.

601
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: Want me to go in.

602
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 11: I know, after I'd gone and made my statement, Dad

603
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,719
Speaker 11: had got him really angry with me about it, simply

604
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 11: because he wanted Jody to be there.

605
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: Crystal said that she had explained to John that she

606
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: was accompanied by one of her school teachers for the

607
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: making of her police statement, but John was not happy

608
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: about it.

609
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 11: He asked me, who'd you go with, and I said, well,

610
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 11: you're at school. Yeah, He said, I wanted Jody to

611
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 11: be there when you made your statement.

612
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 2: I guess he kind of was thinking that they were

613
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: twisting our words or whatever.

614
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 11: When he asked for a copy of my statement, I

615
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 11: said I couldn't find it. He said, because I'm worried

616
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 11: because I need a copy.

617
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: Cristel added that John told her the copy would be

618
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: for his solicitor or his barrister. Crystal used both those

619
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: words for a lawyer, and she added that John said

620
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: people had.

621
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: Been twisting his words and people's words or something.

622
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: Crystal confirmed that she was in John's care until she

623
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: was fourteen, and then she went to live with Liz

624
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: and Clive Gardner, a couple from a church, which Crystal

625
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: had become close to. Describing John's situation as at two

626
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: thousand and two, Crystal said, Lauren was still at home.

627
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: They've got a house.

628
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 11: Well, they've got a double block of wear and they've

629
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 11: built a house for Jody's family, and Dad's building a

630
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 11: house for Lauren and him.

631
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: Next, you'll recall a brief exchange earlier in this episode

632
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: when Jody was being questioned. Here's a reminder, have.

633
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 8: You ever received any financial gifts from your father of

634
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 8: a substantial nature? No, ma'am. Over the years since your

635
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 8: mother has disappeared, has your father indicated to you where

636
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 8: she may have gone.

637
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: We've never talked about it.

638
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 11: I think the only person I ever spoke to was Jodi,

639
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 11: and Jody would tell me things that she heard. I mean,

640
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 11: I think that's where the motorbike things come from. I mean,

641
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 11: I was told her one stage by Jody that Mum

642
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 11: had been seeing I'll justly be missing on the back

643
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 11: of a motorbike by one of her friends, you know,

644
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 11: and things like that. I guess Lauren and I kind

645
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 11: of felt like were left out of it a bit.

646
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 11: Lauren was telling me last night or the night before that,

647
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,239
Speaker 11: Jody said to her that if Mum will passed her

648
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 11: in the streets, she wouldn't recognize her because she was

649
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 11: going funny in the head.

650
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: And I mean things like that.

651
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 11: I mean I was told, you know, we talked about

652
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 11: how her mum had done the same thing, and whether

653
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 11: that was to make us feel better about it or

654
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 11: like her, and things. I don't know, but it was said,

655
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 11: and I mean, those things stick in your head because

656
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 11: we want to believe them.

657
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 8: I guess you've since found out, of course, that the

658
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 8: issue of Bronwin's mother leaving. I think the truth is

659
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 8: that she went overseas for a few years and came back,

660
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 8: and she was with her own mother throughout that time,

661
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 8: and it may not have been as big an issue

662
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 8: as may have been thought soon after nineteen ninety three.

663
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 8: Is that your understanding now.

664
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, just sitting here and listening to how

665
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 11: many people Mum used to keep the regular contact with,

666
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 11: I just think, well, you think she would have contact

667
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 11: at least one person.

668
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked about a signet ring it belonged to Crystal,

669
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: and the mention of it prompted some potentially important evidence

670
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: from her.

671
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: Well, that's actually what I find really strange.

672
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 11: Like, I mean, I don't know at the time whether

673
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 11: it was in a handbag, but I had a signet

674
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 11: ring that was given to me when I was very young,

675
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 11: and it was broken at that point in time, it

676
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 11: had split, and I swore she had it in a

677
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 11: handbag because she was going to get it fixed, because

678
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 11: I remember going through a handbag one time and finding

679
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 11: it and thinking, oh, Mom, you're gonna go.

680
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: Get this fixed. And I just swore it was in

681
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: a handbag.

682
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 11: And then not that long ago, a couple of years ago,

683
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 11: or maybe three years ago, Laura said, oh, look, well Dad.

684
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: Gave me and it was my ring.

685
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 11: And I thought, that's my signet ring and I recognized

686
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 11: it straight away, and it was just the strangest thing,

687
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 11: and I thought, oh, well, maybe it wasn't in a bag.

688
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: I don't know. It was just weird.

689
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle must have heard it with a heavy heart.

690
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: John had claimed that when Bromman walked out the door

691
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: on the night of May sixteen, nineteen ninety three, she

692
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: took her handbag. If Crystal's ring was inside that handbag,

693
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: how did it materialize some five years later as a

694
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: gift from John to Lauren. Had John taken valuable such

695
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: as jewelry and cash from the handbag when broman disappeared.

696
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 8: Had it been repaired?

697
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 11: No, it still had to split. I took it offer well,

698
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 11: I asked for it if I could have it.

699
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 8: And the last time that you saw that signal ring

700
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 8: was when your mother had it. Is that correct?

701
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah?

702
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: Crystal said that neither she nor Lauren spoke up about

703
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: there being no photographs of their mother in the house.

704
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: All the framed family portraits were taken away. If an

705
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: awkward question needed to be asked, Crystal said she would

706
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: ask Lauren to do this.

707
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 11: Because I knew that he would let her have anything

708
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 11: I get it to ask, Oh, you know, we should

709
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 11: see if we can get a look at our baby photos.

710
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 2: Or something like that.

711
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 11: So she would always ask, but he'd say, oh, I

712
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 11: don't know where they are.

713
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: The police officer asked whether Lauren had talked about what

714
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: she remembered on the night of the trip to Sydney.

715
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

716
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 11: I spoke to her about it just recently. She came

717
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 11: to stay with me when she had holidays. Like I mean,

718
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 11: I've spoken to her previously, like about it a long

719
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 11: time ago as well. But I said it to her

720
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 11: again and she told me exactly the same thing she said.

721
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 11: I got up and wanted to the room, and Mom

722
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 11: was sitting on the coffee in the middle of the

723
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 11: room as she was crying, and she quickly wiped her

724
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 11: tears away as if nothing was wrong, and she said,

725
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 11: come on, Lauren, get back to bed, you know, and

726
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 11: popped her into bed and tucked her in, and she said,

727
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 11: everything's fine, you know, I'll see you in the morning.

728
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: Crystal added something else. It was from the time they

729
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: were staying in the rented property after moving out of

730
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: the house and Bromwin was on the.

731
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 11: Telephone and I just heard Mom saying, Jody, you have

732
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 11: no idea, you should just keep out of it, and

733
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 11: she was crying.

734
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: It was really hard time for everyone.

735
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: When I asked about the garage of the house at

736
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent, Crystal described it as their playroom.

737
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 11: It was where we spent all our time with our friends.

738
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 11: We weren't allowed in the house when dad wasn't home.

739
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 11: We weren't even allowed in the house when he was

740
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 11: home and we were with our friends.

741
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 8: Did he used to leave you for periods inside the

742
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 8: garage and lock the door to the house.

743
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, when he went surfing, or when he went shopping

744
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,919
Speaker 11: or whatever, just all the time. I guess never really

745
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 11: thought anything about it. He might offer and leave us

746
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 11: some musely bar I'd say, Lauren, aren't you hungry?

747
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: Asked that if we can have something to eat?

748
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: Crystal's evidence had been poignant. The nineteen year old had

749
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: opened a window to behaviors and events which were sad

750
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: and deeply suspicious. John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, began asking Crystal

751
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 1: about her stay with Clive Gardner, the pastor in the church,

752
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: and his wife.

753
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: Well, Dad kind of said to me that he was

754
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 2: going to Sydney intro do some work.

755
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 12: And did he ask you, do you want to come

756
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 12: to the city.

757
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: Well, I said, I didn't want to go. I wanted

758
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: to be around my friends.

759
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 11: I wanted to finish my school there, and so I

760
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 11: asked I wanted to stay there, and I mean, Lauren

761
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 11: wouldn't actually go with him. I mean, when I lived

762
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 11: with the gardeners, I felt like part of their family.

763
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: The lawyer spent some time going over the layout of

764
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: the house, trying to establish Crystal's proximity to the telephone, which,

765
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: according to John Bromwin had used in the bedroom to

766
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: make a call to a stranger to pick her up

767
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: on that fateful night.

768
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 5: He then asked Crystal.

769
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: About John's concern over his words being twisted in the

770
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: statement Crystal had made. She said that she understood its

771
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: importance and that its contents were what she truthfully remembered

772
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight of the events of five years earlier.

773
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 2: I'd heard the rumors. I live in the same town.

774
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: I just assume you know. Of course, he was concerned

775
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: for himself about what has been said.

776
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 12: Mark Davis says that you told him Bronwin had been

777
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 12: diagnosed schizophrenic but didn't believe the doctors and didn't take

778
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 12: her medication. Was that something that Bronwin told you or

779
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 12: did you hear it from some other source.

780
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: No, that was Jodie that told me.

781
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: Speaking of her mother, Cristel added that she had not

782
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 1: heard her mother behaving strangely as had been claimed.

783
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: Nothing seemed weird about her at all, like in that way.

784
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: Crystal recalled that when they were packing the house, her

785
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: father said to her, grab your and.

786
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: Then I followed him into the car.

787
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 11: I just remember this because I was sitting in the

788
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 11: car and Lauren was sitting next to me, and I

789
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 11: guess we're both wondering at the time, you know, what's

790
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 11: going on?

791
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: Where's mom?

792
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 11: And I think I said something to her and she

793
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 11: says something to dad, where's mom.

794
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: Karl Milavanovitch, the deputy state coroner, broke the momentary silence.

795
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 13: Ask your clok Berg, you.

796
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: Certainly, your worship, And then the police officer, Matt Fordham,

797
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: surprised many of those sitting in the courtroom. He revealed

798
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 1: that the other witness planned for that day was Jonathan Winfield.

799
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: John's lawyer was quickly back on his feet.

800
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 12: Your worship. I've given mister Winfield the traditional legal advice

801
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 12: that a person gets given in this position, and that

802
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 12: is to rely upon the provisions of Section thirty three

803
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 12: of the Coroner's Act.

804
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 13: Section thirty three is an immunity from prosecution.

805
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 12: The right to silence. I'm advising mister Winfield to avail

806
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 12: himself of that right.

807
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 13: Well, that is his right.

808
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 14: He's not required to give evidence unless you simply want

809
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 14: him to take the witness stand and give his name

810
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 14: and simply.

811
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 13: Put on the record.

812
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 5: We could do that for mality.

813
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 14: I think that's appropriate because he is a witness in

814
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 14: these proceedings.

815
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: The idea that John Winfield would be compelled to answer

816
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: questions under oath like everyone else, was thrilling to meaning

817
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: in the public gallery. Unlike everyone else, John was at

818
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: risk of self incrimination. Our legal system boasts a powerful

819
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: and long standing principle. If an accused person a suspect

820
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: in a crime is compelled or forced to give evidence

821
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: which could incriminate that person, then there is a protection

822
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: The resulting answers, if they are, for example, admissions which

823
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: might indicate guilt or involvement in a crime, cannot be

824
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 1: used in a future criminal proceeding, such as a murder

825
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: trial of that person. That's the immunity which the Deputy

826
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was talking about.

827
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 8: Sir, could you please tell us your full name, Jonathan Winfield, Sir,

828
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 8: is it the case that you've sought some legal advice

829
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 8: from your barrister in relation to answering questions at this inquest?

830
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 8: Is that correct?

831
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 13: That's correct?

832
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 8: And so is it the case that, based on this

833
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 8: legal advice, you wish to raise an objection under section

834
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 8: thirty three to giving answers to any questions that we

835
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 8: ask you.

836
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 5: That's correct.

837
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 8: I've nothing further, you worship.

838
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: Try to put yourself in john shoes. By two thousand

839
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: and two, it's been nine years since Bromwin disappeared, and

840
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: you're insistent that you have done nothing wrong and you

841
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: should want to help authorities in every possible way to

842
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: try to find your estranged wife, the mother of your

843
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: youngest daughter, Lauren, and her sister Crystal. But John was

844
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: stone silent. His legal protection was paramount. Shortly before this

845
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: episode was released, I spoke to Andy about John's brief

846
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: appearance in the witness box.

847
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 5: Andy used the.

848
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: Expression pleading the Fifth, a reference to the phrase used

849
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: in the United States justice system when witnesses rely on

850
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 1: the Fifth Amendment and the right to silence. When John

851
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 1: stepped up to give evidence, do you remember that and

852
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: do you recall whether.

853
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 5: That was a surprise to you?

854
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 3: The only question he answered was his name and you're

855
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 3: pleating the fifth yep. I think Matt only asked him

856
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 3: two questions, and cultures stopped it there.

857
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 1: On that note, John Winfield walked back to his chair

858
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 1: and sat down next to his lawyer, Matt Fordham offered

859
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: a summation of where things were at the Detective Sergeant

860
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: Graham Diskin was a likely no show, but there was

861
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: still Wayne Toby, who had worked with Detective.

862
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 5: Discin during those lame.

863
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: Inquiries made in nineteen ninety three. Detective Temby had then

864
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: worked on the case with Glenn Taylor from nineteen ninety eight.

865
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 5: The coroner spoke next, I.

866
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 14: Probably would have some reservations as to what it is

867
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 14: detective seeing it Constable Tenby would be able to add

868
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 14: to this inquiry, although I suppose we won't know the

869
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 14: answer to that unless he was here. It really seems

870
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 14: that the real impetus into investigation didn't really start until

871
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 14: Detective Sergeant Taylor took courage.

872
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 13: Of the matter.

873
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Legget and the police officer presenting the

874
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: case at the inquest. Matt Fordham then agreed that rather

875
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: than have Detective Temby giving evidence under oath, they would

876
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: have a short adjournment and telephone him on his mobile phone.

877
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett only wanted to know whether Detective Temby had

878
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: any recollection of a witness, saying in nineteen ninety three

879
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: that the Ford Falcon drove up sense and present not

880
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 1: down it. But after some further conversation between John and

881
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: his lawyer, the idea was abandoned. Detective Temby would be

882
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: neither telephone to clarify anything, nor call to give evidence.

883
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 14: And he's going to be relying on running sheets that

884
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 14: were made nearly nine years ago. And he said no

885
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 14: statement that he's made that will refresh his memory or

886
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 14: a statement that he made a lot earlier that would

887
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 14: perhaps be a reliable and concience record of his recollection

888
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 14: at the time.

889
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: This was an unfortunate turn of events in my view,

890
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: because the coronial inquiry really should have tried to glean

891
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 1: relevant evidence from the Detective Wayne Temby. He was working

892
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: with Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three. They

893
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: spoke to Bromin's friends, neighbors, and family members. In two

894
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: thousand and two, Karl Milavanovitch, as Deputy State Coroner, was

895
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 1: frustrated at the lack of police documentation from nineteen ninety

896
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,280
Speaker 1: and the unexplained failure of Discan and Temby to take

897
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: a single witness statement. Their police running sheets were a

898
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: very poor and lazy substitute for signed witness statements. In

899
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: two thousand and two, Discan clearly was not going to

900
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,479
Speaker 1: go to the inquest to explain why there were such

901
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: gaping holes in what should have been a serious investigation

902
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: into a missing young mother, but the next best option

903
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: was the younger police officer Wayne Temby. There were good

904
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: reasons for Sergeant Matt Fordham to call Temby to give

905
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: evidence under oath. A subpoena should have compelled him to

906
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 1: bring his police notebook, refer to it wherever he needed,

907
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: and answer obvious questions about why so little was done

908
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 1: by he and Discan when the trial was relatively fresh.

909
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: In my view, Glen Taylor also should have taken a

910
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: statement from Temby at the start of Taylor's nineteen ninety

911
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: eight Investors destigation. Instead, Glenn had to try to rely

912
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: on and make sense of a hodgepodge of incomplete evidence

913
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: and running sheet entries, which Discan and Tembe were largely

914
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: responsible for in nineteen ninety three. It's a remarkable fact

915
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: that during the public hearings for the inquest in two

916
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: thousand and two, Glenn Taylor was being shown for the

917
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: first time bits of evidence from nineteen ninety three, such

918
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 1: as Broman's writings and diary notes. What was going on

919
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: in the ball and A police station. I have talked

920
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: to a retired police officer who worked there and knew

921
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: the detectives in nineteen ninety three. He described the culture

922
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: and work ethic in the most unflattering terms. Its shaped

923
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: up as a dream job, a quiet town with affordable

924
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: housing and great beaches, surfing and fishing. But there were

925
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: serious crimes and unsolved murders too, And the retired cop

926
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: told me that he and another officer in nineteen ninety

927
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: three would say to each other.

928
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 8: If you're going to commit a murder in Australia, do

929
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 8: it in Ballina without a tecticy. You get away with.

930
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: It by not calling Wayne Temby to give evidence at

931
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: the inquest in two thousand and two, the reputations of

932
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: Ballener police were unlikely to be damaged. Par truth about

933
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: the failures and shortcomings in the original police investigation of

934
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: Broman's disappearance would be largely withheld from the journalists, Broman's

935
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: friends and family, and members of the public attending the

936
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 1: Lismore courthouse each day. In this way, New South Wales

937
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: police avoided media scrutiny and acute embarrassment for having failed

938
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: the mother of two. We do not have Graham Diskin's

939
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 1: side of the story, nor do we have Wayne Temby's side.

940
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: The former police detectives from Ballina were approached to be

941
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,240
Speaker 1: interviewed by me at an early stage of this podcast investigation.

942
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: The offer remains open. Here's Bromwin's sister Melissa, reflecting on

943
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: the performance of police. Melissa attended the inquest Glenn Taylor.

944
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 2: He was certainly convinced that there'd been foul play. I

945
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 2: wish that he'd been the person on the case when

946
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 2: it happened, because I think that would have been very different.

947
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 3: What more did they need?

948
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 2: They needed a body? We did not have a body?

949
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: Was that the last time you saw John at the

950
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: Inquesse So last time I spoke to Andy and Michelle

951
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: about it while this episode was being finalized. What we

952
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: know is that the police investigation in ninety three was

953
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:48,240
Speaker 1: completely negligent and incompetent. Yes, what we don't know is why,

954
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: for what reason?

955
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 15: Well, it was Bromman's disappearance one of many other investigations

956
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 15: that were just swept to the side and not bothered with.

957
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 15: I wonder how many other people from that area are

958
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 15: finding themselves listening to your podcast and thinking, Yeah, they

959
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 15: didn't do anything.

960
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: When this happened. Is this a one off or a

961
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: general way it.

962
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 15: Worked out of that police station with certain people.

963
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: Late in the afternoon of the fourth day of the

964
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: inquest in Lizmon in two thousand and two, the Deputy

965
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: State Coroner gave his cue to Matt Fordham. The police

966
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: officer had a lot to say. It was his damning

967
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: of the case against John Winfield, but it does not

968
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: appear in the official transcript of the inquest. For whatever reason,

969
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: submissions and closing addresses were not transcribed. Somebody provided me

970
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: with the document which Matt Fordham read in court that afternoon.

971
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: In fairness to John, it would have been preferable to

972
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: balance the ledger with the submission which his lawyer, Craig

973
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: Legot made at the inquest. The following day, I reached

974
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: out to Craig Legget in Sydney to ask him. However,

975
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: mister Leggett respectfully declined. And just a reminder, although Craig

976
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: Legot has been mentioned many times in the podcast, he

977
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 1: has not personally.

978
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 5: Been involved in it.

979
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: The real Craig Legate sounds like this. I found a

980
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: snippet on YouTube from one of his legal presentations.

981
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,760
Speaker 13: After everybody, my name's Craig Leggett.

982
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 2: I'm a senior counsel from Martain Place Chambers.

983
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: Nor have you heard the voices of John or Crystal,

984
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: or Lauren or Jody in this podcast? Maddie's younger sister

985
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 1: Tiana voiced Crystal's evidence. They are related by blood and

986
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: of course they know each other. John, Crystal, Lauren and

987
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: Jody still have standing invitations to be interviewed in this

988
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: podcast investigation. Now here's the voice actor for Matt Fordham

989
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: from the inquest in two thousand and two. This is

990
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: an edited version of what he told the court and

991
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: the deputy State coroner that day in the presence of

992
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 1: John and Roman's family and friends.

993
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 8: Brongwin was known to be very close to her two daughters. However,

994
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 8: neither they nor her friends or blood family have received

995
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 8: any contact from her. This is extremely out of character

996
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 8: for her. Doreen Strong of the Family Support Service states

997
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 8: that Bronwin had no intention of leaving her kids and

998
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 8: in fact wanted to maintain sole custody of the kids.

999
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 8: This is confirmed by her attendants at solicitors to arrange

1000
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 8: an application in the family court. Her uncle John Reid

1001
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 8: states that around Christmas nineteen ninety two, Bronwan was left

1002
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 8: stranded in Sydney by Jonathan Winfield and complained of being

1003
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 8: assaulted by him. He saw bruising on Bronwyn's arm. Her

1004
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 8: cousin Megan Reid, also stated that Bronwin complained of being

1005
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 8: assaulted and being forced into aborting a pregnancy against her will.

1006
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 8: Not long before her disappearance, Bronwin asked her sister in law,

1007
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 8: Michelle Reid, to look after her children if anything was

1008
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 8: to happen to her. Bronwyin did not have any independent

1009
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 8: source of financial support other than the accounts, which have

1010
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 8: not been touched since she disappeared.

1011
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham said Bromwyn had expressed concern to her near

1012
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: neighbor Alan Fisher, about what would occur when Jonathan Winfield

1013
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: returned to Lennox from Sydney. Bromwin stated that she was

1014
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 1: quote terrified about what he might do unquote. Matt Fordham

1015
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: said Bromwin was very stressed in the days before her disappearance.

1016
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 1: She had told Desiree Flood on the afternoon of Sunday

1017
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: May sixteen that she was expecting problems when John arrived

1018
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: from Sydney, and that Desiree should not worry if she

1019
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,280
Speaker 1: were to hear a commotion. Matt Fordham spoke, of course,

1020
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: about John, his movements, his intentions, and his versions of

1021
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: what had happened.

1022
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield states that he saw Bronwin get up and

1023
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 8: walk silently out the front door of the premises, and

1024
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,959
Speaker 8: that he heard the sound of the car leaving. Mister

1025
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 8: Winfield tries to explain Bronwin's disappearance as being due to

1026
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 8: her being mentally ill and living with other people. There

1027
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 8: is no confirmed contact with Bronwyn, since she took no

1028
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 8: belongings and none were taken from her flat. She has

1029
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 8: not contacted any family, nor her friends, nor her kids

1030
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 8: since the night she disappeared. That night, Jonathan Winfield immediately

1031
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,240
Speaker 8: put the kids into their family car and left the house.

1032
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 8: He attends a service station at eleven o six pm

1033
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 8: where he buys petrol and gas before he drives almost

1034
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,439
Speaker 8: non stop to Sydney, arriving about nine am the following day.

1035
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 8: He drops the kids with relatives, strangely shows them the

1036
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 8: receipt from the petrol purchase at a previous night, and

1037
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 8: is not seen for the rest of the day. His

1038
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 8: movements at this time are not precisely known and are suspicious.

1039
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 8: There is strong evidence of flight from the scene. Jonathan

1040
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 8: Winfield's only explanation as to why he would take the

1041
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 8: kid's overnight back to Sydney within hours of his arrival

1042
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 8: in lenox Head is that the kids apparently travel better

1043
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 8: at night. He does not explain why he would fly

1044
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 8: back to lennox Head with all of his clothes, his surfboard, etc.

1045
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 8: And then leave hurriedly without these things. His arrival in

1046
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 8: Sydney was not expected by relatives, and he does not

1047
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 8: appear to have taken the kids for holidays, as he

1048
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 8: did not take suitable clothing for the kids and in

1049
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 8: fact spends little time with him in Sydney. Also, when

1050
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield arrived on Michelle Reid's doorstep with the kids

1051
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 8: on seventeen May nineteen ninety three, he appeared quite shaky.

1052
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 8: When the neighbors entered the Winfield's house after Bronwn went missing,

1053
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 8: they noticed that it was untidy, foods on plates, wet

1054
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 8: washing in the machine, and beds not made. This was

1055
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 8: strikingly unusual, and it appeared to the neighbors that the

1056
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,479
Speaker 8: house had been left in a hurry. Jonathan Winfield only

1057
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 8: reported Bronwin as missing after her brother, Andrew Reid, suggested

1058
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 8: that he might do so. At the time Bronwin allegedly

1059
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 8: walked out of the house, Jonathan Winfield did not know

1060
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 8: for how long she would be gone. He left no

1061
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 8: note for her explaining where he was taking the kids,

1062
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 8: and although this could have been to get back at her,

1063
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 8: this conflicts with his version that he phoned the house

1064
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 8: to check on Bronwyn's welfare. Jonathan Winfield was very concerned

1065
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 8: about losing the house that he built. He was aware

1066
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 8: that possession of the house was a significant factor to

1067
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 8: be considered by any tribunal determining a property settlement, and

1068
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 8: would have been keen to remain in the family home.

1069
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 8: If he thought that Bronwyn was likely to divorce him,

1070
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 8: at the very least, he would not have wanted Bronwyn

1071
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 8: to retain possession of the home. The legal advice received

1072
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 8: by Bronwyn shortly before her disappearance suggested that she would

1073
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 8: be entitled to a significant percentage of the assets if

1074
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 8: the couple divorced, and that it was expected that she

1075
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 8: would retain custody of both Lauren and Crystal, and that

1076
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 8: Jonathan would incur liability to pay child maintenance. There is

1077
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 8: strong evidence that Jonathan Winfield was a possessive husband who

1078
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 8: did not allow his wife any financial or social freedom.

1079
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 8: This conflicts with his version that he did not challenge

1080
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 8: Bronwan about where she was going late at night when

1081
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 8: she allegedly walked out of the house. Being possessive of

1082
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 8: both his wife and the house, one can imagine his

1083
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 8: reaction when he arrived back to his own home and

1084
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 8: found that the locks had been changed and that his

1085
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 8: bags had been packed. Jonathan Winfield has been very against

1086
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 8: any media release associated with the disappearance of his wife,

1087
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 8: and even today has expressed to police his disliked for

1088
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 8: publicity about the matter. Bronwin has disclosed to her friend

1089
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 8: Denise Barnard, that Jonathan Winfield had been violent towards her

1090
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 8: and she was scared of further assaults. She stated that

1091
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 8: she was tired of Jonathan Winfield's possessive manner and planned

1092
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 8: to leave with the kids. Bronwan had disclosed to another

1093
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 8: friend that Jonathan Winfield had threatened to kill her if

1094
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 8: she ever bad mouthed him in public. Only days prior

1095
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 8: to her disappearance, Browin gave instructions to a solicitor, Mister mcdebott,

1096
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 8: and on fourteen May nineteen ninety three, a solicitor's letter

1097
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 8: was sent to Jonathan Winfield indicating that the house and

1098
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:21,919
Speaker 8: car would be contested in a property settlement. Jonathan Winfield's

1099
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 8: first wife, Jenny Mason, describes an incident to where Jonathan

1100
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 8: tried to kill her, how he was possessive and demanded

1101
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 8: a totally clean house and would not allow her to

1102
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 8: smoke inside the house. Compare this with the fact that

1103
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 8: dirty ashtrays were found by neighbors when they broke into

1104
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 8: the home, which would indicate that Bronwin had been smoking

1105
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 8: inside the home, not expecting Jonathan to continue to live there.

1106
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 8: The fact that Jonathan left the house so suddenly, with

1107
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 8: half eaten food left on plates, where washing left in

1108
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 8: the machine, and dirty ashtrays is totally outside the character

1109
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 8: for him. On fourteen May nineteen ninety three, the solicitors

1110
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 8: acting for bronwin sent Jonathan a letter indicating that she

1111
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 8: proposed to pay the outstanding registration fees for the nineteen

1112
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 8: eighty six Falcon so that the vehicle would be registered

1113
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 8: in her name only and she alone would use it.

1114
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 8: Jonathan was potentially going to have to part with eighteen

1115
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 8: percent of his income to child maintenance. Jonathan's previous wife

1116
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 8: d describes him as being possessive and how when they separated,

1117
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 8: he did not want her to claim her share of

1118
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 8: the property settlement. The other previous wife, Jenny Mason, also

1119
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 8: described an incident where Jonathan threatened to kill her and

1120
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 8: strangled her neck until she kicked his groin and escaped.

1121
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 8: Jenny Mason confirms that Jonathan did not bring any clothing

1122
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 8: with the kids when he took them to Sydney. The daughter,

1123
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 8: Crystal Winfield, describes how her father would lose control and

1124
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 8: hit her mother on one occasion. Jonathan through crystal against

1125
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 8: a wall.

1126
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham told the Deputy State Coroner that the version

1127
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 1: of events proffered by John Winfield can be discounted conclusively

1128
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: because of several flaws. The police officer added that there

1129
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 1: was sufficient evidence for a court to find guilt on

1130
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: what was, of course a circumstantial case. Matt Fordham set

1131
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: out some of what he regarded as the fundamental flaws

1132
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: in John's version.

1133
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 8: The medicare check was signed allegedly by Bronwin at a

1134
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 8: space on the document where it should have been signed

1135
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 8: by the medical practitioner. This is a basic error which

1136
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 8: would not have been made by a person with Bronwyn's

1137
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 8: work experience. The neighbor was convalescing on the lounge in

1138
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 8: the front room of his home throughout the time in

1139
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 8: which Jonathan Winfield alleges that Bronwin seemed walked out of

1140
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 8: the house and got into an awaiting vehicle. The gradient

1141
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 8: of Sandstone Crescent is such that a vehicle would either

1142
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 8: leave by traveling down the hill into the view of

1143
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 8: mister Nolan, or else it would travel up the hill,

1144
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 8: which would require significant revving of the vehicle's engine. Mister

1145
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 8: Nolan neither saw nor heard any vehicle stop and then

1146
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 8: leave outside Sandstone Crescent that evening, apart from the Windfields

1147
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 8: Ford Falcon sedan which bottomed out. Mister Nolan also recognized

1148
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 8: the suspicion attached to this disappearance within a few weeks

1149
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 8: because he went to the rear of his property and

1150
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 8: opened the lid of a sewer pit which bordered the

1151
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 8: Winfield's property in which he suspected Bronlan's body may have

1152
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 8: been stored. During a visit of the site during the inquest,

1153
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 8: mister Nolan pointed out a wire harness which was still

1154
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 8: attached to the sewer lid as being the harness he

1155
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 8: construct did in order to open it soon after the disappearance.

1156
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 8: The folly of Jonathan Winfield's version was immediately obvious to

1157
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 8: Bronwan's sister in law, Michelle Reid. Missus Reed also noted

1158
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 8: that it was strange that the children did not have

1159
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 8: adequate clothing brought with them, and that Jonathan had told

1160
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 8: her that Bronwan left the house at ten thirty PM

1161
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 8: or ten forty five PM, which was different to his

1162
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 8: subsequent versions. Jonathan Winfield later tells people that Browan left

1163
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 8: the house at an earlier time, which would be consistent

1164
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 8: with him making up those details. He also appears to

1165
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 8: have made up details about a car stopping outside the house,

1166
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 8: as he did not inform missus Reed of that on

1167
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 8: the morning that he and the children arrived in Sydney.

1168
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 8: Any benign explanation of Bronwan Winfield's disappearance would require that

1169
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 8: she totally disregarded her two children. A number of witnesses

1170
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 8: described her as being a devoted mother who would not

1171
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 8: have left the kids. That does not appear to be

1172
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 8: any credible evidence that she was involved heavily with a

1173
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 8: religious group, and police inquiries with the suggested boyfriend, Gary Jackson,

1174
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 8: reveal that she did not run off with him. The

1175
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 8: only suggestion supporting these theories is the fact that Bronwin's

1176
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 8: own mother was forced to go overseas and leave her

1177
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 8: kids due to mental illness when her kids were very young. However,

1178
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 8: there is no evidence of this in relation to Bronwin.

1179
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 8: For Bronwin not to contact her children after almost a

1180
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 8: decade is I submit, highly suggestive that she is deceased.

1181
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 8: There is absolutely no evidence that anyone other than Jonathan

1182
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 8: Winfield had any motivation or opportunity to kill Bronwin. The

1183
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 8: little break which the deceased referred to in her diaries

1184
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 8: does not necessarily mean that the deceased intended to leave

1185
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:57,440
Speaker 8: her children completely. The diaries do not suggest that the

1186
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 8: deceased voluntarily left her home late on a Sunday night,

1187
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 8: and in any event, do not suggest any reason for

1188
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 8: her to leave her children. It is my respectful submission

1189
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 8: that there is only one rational hypothesis available on these facts.

1190
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield killed Bronwin Winfield on the sixteenth of May

1191
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 8: nineteen ninety three. The most likely method of carrying out

1192
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 8: the killing was by strangling or smothering the deceased, as

1193
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 8: no evidence of a struggle, weapons, or bloodstains were found

1194
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 8: inside the house when neighbours entered in the days after

1195
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 8: the disappearance. A jury will, in my submission, recognize the

1196
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 8: compelling nature of the admissible evidence available against the suspect

1197
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield. Accordingly, I submit that the tests under Section

1198
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 8: nineteen of the Coroner's Acts have been satisfied and that

1199
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 8: a jury would convict Jonathan Winfield of Bronwin's murder.

1200
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: It was a compelling build up and then a powerful lending.

1201
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: Karl Milavanovitch spoke up and he told the court that

1202
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: he was of the view that he could find on

1203
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: the evidence that Bronwyn joy Winfield.

1204
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 14: Is in fact deceased. I think the evidence that we

1205
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:16,919
Speaker 14: have heard in the last four days regarding Bronwyn would

1206
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 14: suggest that, notwithstanding that she had some difficulties in her life,

1207
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 14: there is no suggestion that she intended simply to disappear

1208
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 14: off the face of the earth, and perhaps disappear in

1209
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 14: a sense of joining our commune or just dropping out

1210
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 14: of life. The overwhelming inference is that she must be deceased,

1211
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 14: and I think the evidence is very clear.

1212
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 13: And persuasive in that regard. She had plans even in

1213
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 13: the immediate.

1214
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 14: Days after her disappearance. She had plans to see a solicitor.

1215
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 14: She had plans to look after the children. We have

1216
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 14: all seen and learned a little bit more about Bronwin

1217
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 14: in the last four days, about her personality, about her

1218
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 14: devotion to her children, and it is beyond conceivable belief

1219
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 14: that she would have just disappeared and have made no

1220
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 14: contact with anybody over the last nine years.

1221
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: He referenced the strange events with Jodie Winfield, suggesting Bromwin

1222
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: was alive and well and living out Nimben Way.

1223
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 14: And one perhaps wonders what the motivation behind that evidence was,

1224
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 14: whether it was to frustrate this inquiry or whether it

1225
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 14: was genuine. But be that as it may, there is

1226
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 14: no positive, affirmative or definitive or reliable sighting of Bronwyn

1227
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 14: other than by mister Winfield, one of the witnesses in

1228
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 14: these proceedings, being the last person, and perhaps Kristall and

1229
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 14: Lauren to have seen her alive. The evidence, in my

1230
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 14: view is overwhelming that she is in fact deceased, and

1231
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 14: I am prepared at this stage of the proceedings to

1232
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 14: make that ruling that I am satisfied that Bronwin Joy

1233
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 14: Winfield is in fact deceased.

1234
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: But under the Coroner's Act, Karl Milavanovitch could not stop there.

1235
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: He was also required to make findings about the date, time,

1236
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: and manner of her death. It was late in the

1237
01:06:55,960 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: day the Deputy State Coroner wanted John and his life

1238
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 1: lawyer to have some time overnight to consider their position.

1239
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 14: O can, perhaps, in fairness, indicate at this stage that

1240
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:11,479
Speaker 14: I'm considering terminating the proceedings and recommending that a known

1241
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 14: person be charged with an indutable offense.

1242
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 1: Andy recalled that you could have heard a pin drop

1243
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 1: without naming the known person. The deputy state Coroner was

1244
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 1: flagging that he believed John Winfield should be charged with murder.

1245
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 14: I will be giving reasons in detail to the Attorney General,

1246
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 14: but that is in confidence in relation to me sending

1247
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 14: the brief, the transcripts and my reasons. But I'm happy

1248
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 14: to hear any submissions tomorrow tomorrow morning.

1249
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 12: Yes, thank you, your worship.

1250
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: The fifth and final day of the inquest, on Friday

1251
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: May thirty one, two thousand and two, started at ten

1252
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 1: twenty am. Craig Leggott kicked proceedings off with a surprise

1253
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 1: new witness. His name was Clive Ian Gardner. His daughter

1254
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 1: and Crystal were friends. The Gardner family had looked after

1255
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 1: Crystal when she was in her teens and no longer

1256
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 1: living with John and Lauren.

1257
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 3: I'm a pastor with the Christian Outreach Center in Ballana.

1258
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 12: I understand you went somewhere last night in the company

1259
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:20,240
Speaker 12: of someone I did. Would you tell his worship who where?

1260
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 8: Okay?

1261
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 3: I went to Broadwater in the company of John Winfield,

1262
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 3: who asked me to come to approach Detective disc in.

1263
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 3: John had a statement that he wanted the detective to

1264
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,679
Speaker 3: read and if he agreed with it to sign. That's

1265
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 3: what I knew beforehand.

1266
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 13: When we got there.

1267
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 3: We approached the house, there was a lady in the

1268
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 3: front yard who brought us in and called I assume

1269
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 3: her husband, who came out. John introduced himself as John Winfield.

1270
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:49,679
Speaker 3: The detective said, I can't talk to you. John approached

1271
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 3: him to say, I've just got a statement here I'd

1272
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:53,560
Speaker 3: like you to read, and he really didn't get the

1273
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,679
Speaker 3: full sentence out. He just said again, I can't talk

1274
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 3: to you. And John tried one more time, and the

1275
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 3: third time he said I can't talk to you, and

1276
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 3: then we left.

1277
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,640
Speaker 12: And I understand that you formed some impression based on

1278
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 12: that conversation.

1279
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 3: Well, I'd have to recognize him as a man of authority.

1280
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 3: It's just in his tone of voice, the way he

1281
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 3: said it, the words he chose.

1282
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 1: It was not disclosed how John knew Graham Discin's home address.

1283
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 1: I talked to Michelle and Andy about it. They went

1284
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 1: to Graham Diskin's house that evening.

1285
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 15: When it got mentioned on the Friday morning in the

1286
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 15: court ran it was like, how does John know where

1287
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,680
Speaker 15: Graham discon lives and why did he go there?

1288
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 2: That was a surprise.

1289
01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 8: We didn't know that he.

1290
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:44,560
Speaker 2: Tried to get him decide stat Debt.

1291
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 5: What do you but believe that was.

1292
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 1: About Well, I've never seen the document that he tried

1293
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,679
Speaker 1: to present to Discan, so I don't know, but I'm

1294
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 1: assuming that John wanted Discan to agree to certain things

1295
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 1: in the document, facts that John would claim he told Discot.

1296
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 5: And I think the timing's interesting.

1297
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 1: That happens on the Thursday night, probably a couple of

1298
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 1: hours after the Deputy State Coroner has told the court

1299
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 1: it's curtains.

1300
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:15,759
Speaker 2: For you, John, expect exactly.

1301
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 1: So this would have been a last ditch bid by

1302
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 1: John to try to introduce some new evidence that could

1303
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: have changed the coroner's mind. The following morning, Graham Discin

1304
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,599
Speaker 1: or his wife must have telephoned Ballon of police when

1305
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 1: John Winfield turned up unexpectedly at Discan's home. Ballener Police

1306
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 1: took some action that Thursday evening. They alerted Murray Nolan

1307
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: and Deb Hall at their house in Sandstone Crescent that

1308
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 1: John was highly agitated and on the move. Murray and

1309
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 1: Deb told me how that unfolded. So it's the last

1310
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 1: night of the inquest, He's gone to Discan's house and

1311
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 1: we're fre around the house, banging on the walls, and

1312
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: so the police have rang us up and told us

1313
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:01,799
Speaker 1: to lock the doors.

1314
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 16: A patrol car around to patrol our house because they

1315
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 16: were worried about John.

1316
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:09,720
Speaker 2: He was so angry because it was.

1317
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 16: All unfolding at the inquest that he was going to

1318
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 16: be nabbed, and he wanted Discan to be coming to

1319
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:17,719
Speaker 16: that inquiry to vouch for him. And I think disc

1320
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 16: And knew he would be under scrutiny being a police officer,

1321
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 16: so he chose to not come to the inquiry. Disc

1322
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 16: but I think he also realized that he messed up

1323
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 16: from the initial stages. Glen Taylor said to me, and

1324
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:34,519
Speaker 16: I can remember him telling you this. He said, I

1325
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 16: can only apologize to you for what the police didn't do.

1326
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:37,760
Speaker 1: Back then.

1327
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 4: John Winfield went down to the Distan's home with a document.

1328
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 4: He went down there during his inquest and confronted disc

1329
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 4: and said would you read to sign this? And Discan

1330
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 4: said no, how did you know where dis can live?

1331
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 4: I don't have that answer. It seemed very odd. I

1332
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 4: quite no evidence to say that they were friends outside

1333
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:05,520
Speaker 4: of the investigation. Now what was in that document?

1334
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1335
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:11,679
Speaker 1: The coronial proceeding run by Karl Milvanovitch in the old

1336
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 1: Lismore courtouse was almost over. He directed a question to

1337
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 1: Craig Leggot.

1338
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:19,559
Speaker 13: No other evidence has been called today.

1339
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,920
Speaker 1: John's lawyer had already given his submissions on behalf of John.

1340
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:27,719
Speaker 5: Craig Legatet had no more to say.

1341
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:31,640
Speaker 1: And then the Deputy State Coroner directed a question to

1342
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham, the hard working police officer who had pulled

1343
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 1: so much of the case together.

1344
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:39,879
Speaker 13: Sergeant do you wish to respond to any matters?

1345
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 1: Matt had nothing to add.

1346
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 14: I think it's important for everyone to understand a little

1347
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 14: bit about a coroner's role, but perhaps a little bit

1348
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 14: about the history of the position in the context of

1349
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:52,759
Speaker 14: the evidence that's unfolded in this court in the last

1350
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 14: five days. The role of coroner is perhaps one of

1351
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:58,559
Speaker 14: the oldest judicial roles in our legal history, which we

1352
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 14: inherited from England. The position of coroner has expanded to

1353
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:04,800
Speaker 14: the point where coroners now have an obligation under the

1354
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 14: Coroner's Act to investigate deaths that are reported to a

1355
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 14: coroner or suspicious deaths and to make certain statutory findings

1356
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:15,760
Speaker 14: which are requirements under the Act. Of course, in this inquest,

1357
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 14: as we well know, there is nobody. This was not

1358
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 14: a matter that was reported to the coroner, as most

1359
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:25,640
Speaker 14: traditional matters are. When somebody dies and there is a

1360
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 14: suspicion attached to their death, and there is a body,

1361
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 14: and there may be a crime seat where there is

1362
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,839
Speaker 14: no body, of course, it is difficult for the coroner

1363
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:36,679
Speaker 14: to make certain findings. But I am able, of course,

1364
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:39,440
Speaker 14: on the evidence to make the findings that I indicated

1365
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 14: that I would be prepared to make yesterday, and that

1366
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,599
Speaker 14: is that I am satisfied on the evidence that I

1367
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:47,559
Speaker 14: have heard yesterday and over the last four or five days,

1368
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 14: that brodenwin Joy Wingfield is in fact deceased. The fact

1369
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 14: that she was very devoted to her children, the circumstances

1370
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 14: in which she left without taking any clothing, without there

1371
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 14: being any operation of her bankcout counts, the fact that

1372
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,760
Speaker 14: there's been no affirmative sightings or confirmed sightings or any

1373
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 14: contact that she has made with any members of the

1374
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 14: family satisfy me at the requisite level that she is

1375
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:13,960
Speaker 14: in fact deceased. A coroner's matter is somewhat difficult in

1376
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 14: relation to matters where a known person may be considered

1377
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,680
Speaker 14: to be a person of interest. The first finding that

1378
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 14: the coroner has to determine is that he is satisfied

1379
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 14: that the evidence is capable of satisfying a jury beyond

1380
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 14: reasonable doubt that a known person has committed an indictable offense.

1381
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:32,759
Speaker 14: And then the coroner has a second leak to consider

1382
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 14: under section nineteen, and that is whether there is a

1383
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:38,799
Speaker 14: reasonable prospect that a jury would convict a known person

1384
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 14: on the evidence. The difficulty is that under section nineteen,

1385
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 14: I am not allowed to name a known person in

1386
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:47,719
Speaker 14: relation to applying my reasonings for that test.

1387
01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 1: While the Deputy State Coroner was legally constrained from stating

1388
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:57,240
Speaker 1: the obvious, there are no such constraints on me or

1389
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:01,799
Speaker 1: this podcast. The known person was, of course right there

1390
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:06,600
Speaker 1: staring back at Karl Milvanovitch, John Winfield.

1391
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 14: People sitting in this court over the last week might

1392
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:12,000
Speaker 14: feel that this is a trial. It is not a trial.

1393
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,400
Speaker 14: There is no defend before this court. There is no

1394
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 14: person charge with any criminal offense. It is an inquisition,

1395
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 14: and it is an inquiry where there are no strict

1396
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:24,760
Speaker 14: rules of evidence. There is a lot of evidence that's

1397
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 14: been allowed into this inquest.

1398
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:28,480
Speaker 13: I am prepared, however.

1399
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 14: To make this comment in relation to mister Leggat's submission.

1400
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 14: In regard to the likelihood that Bromwin Winfield in fact

1401
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,440
Speaker 14: left of her own accord.

1402
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 1: Karl Milvanovitch mentioned the telephone records showing calls being made

1403
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 1: to Country Link, an indication of Bromwin's interest in the

1404
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:49,639
Speaker 1: timetables for public transport, particularly trains.

1405
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 14: The fact that there are telephone calls to CountryLink, and

1406
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 14: the fact that she talked in letters that about there

1407
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 14: was going to be a change that she was going

1408
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:00,679
Speaker 14: to go away, is not necessarily inconsistent with the fact

1409
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 14: that she still disappeared on the night of sixteen may

1410
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 14: under circumstances which I'm not consistent with her seeking to

1411
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 14: go away for a holiday.

1412
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 1: As you have heard earlier in the podcast, Bromman was

1413
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,760
Speaker 1: also making plans to host her sister, Kim Marshall, who

1414
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 1: would be traveling from Tasmania and would have needed to

1415
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:24,559
Speaker 1: take public transport from Sydney for her trip to Lenox.

1416
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:28,839
Speaker 1: Carl then spoke of the challenges Bromwin was facing.

1417
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 14: One has to remember that in that two week period

1418
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,679
Speaker 14: before she disappeared on sixteen May, she was going through

1419
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 14: perhaps the most difficult time of her life. She had

1420
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 14: made a decision, firstly, sometime earlier to move out of

1421
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 14: the matrimonial home. I don't think there can be any

1422
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,680
Speaker 14: doubt that she perceived her marriage as having come to

1423
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 14: an end, and she had made a very perhaps bold

1424
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 14: decision and a brave decision to move back into the

1425
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 14: matrimonial home. She knew what the consequences of that would be.

1426
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:01,960
Speaker 14: She knew that it would involve FORHPS litigation. She knew

1427
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 14: that it would involve emotions. She knew that possibly she

1428
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 14: was even anticipating that it would require a reunion of

1429
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:11,640
Speaker 14: Crystal with her true father and making contact with that

1430
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:14,640
Speaker 14: part of the family. And she was planning that. She

1431
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,679
Speaker 14: was going through what appears to me a very difficult time.

1432
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:20,840
Speaker 14: The fact that she made notes and wrote letters is

1433
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:23,559
Speaker 14: perhaps a way in which I perceive that she tried

1434
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 14: to rationalize all these various things that were going through

1435
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:30,719
Speaker 14: her mind. She knew solicitors were writing letters. She knew

1436
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:32,880
Speaker 14: that those letters were going to contain matters on her

1437
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 14: instructions to her solicitor, which included that she wanted a

1438
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:39,679
Speaker 14: property settlement, that she wanted sole ownership of the family

1439
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,720
Speaker 14: motor vehicle, and maybe she thought this is a good

1440
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:44,680
Speaker 14: time to take the children away for a couple of

1441
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:48,760
Speaker 14: weeks while all those things are happening. It's totally consistent

1442
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 14: with perhaps her making some comment that I'm going to

1443
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 14: go away, and even comments like you will see a change. Well,

1444
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 14: what about the notation in her diary Modeling and Self

1445
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:03,280
Speaker 14: Improvement Course nineteenth to twenty June, Lismore Workers Club. This

1446
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 14: woman had plans, She had plans for the future, she

1447
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:10,200
Speaker 14: had appointments with solicitors, she was going to disconnect the

1448
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 14: telephone at the flat, she was going to get the

1449
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:15,240
Speaker 14: car registered, And if she was going to go away,

1450
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 14: it certainly wasn't on the night of sixteen May, with

1451
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:23,040
Speaker 14: no clothing, no suitcases, and without telling her children. I

1452
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:25,759
Speaker 14: am satisfied and I make this finding that she died

1453
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 14: on or about sixteen May in the state of New

1454
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:33,759
Speaker 14: South Wales. I now terminate this inquest pursuant to Section nineteen,

1455
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:37,519
Speaker 14: being satisfied that the evidence is capable of satisfying a

1456
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 14: jury beyond reasonable doubt that a known person has committed

1457
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 14: an indictable offense, and there is a reasonable prospect that

1458
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 14: the jury would convict the known person of an indictable offense.

1459
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:52,160
Speaker 14: May I, on behalf of my court and on behalf

1460
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:55,719
Speaker 14: of my staff, extend my personal sympathy to the family

1461
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,000
Speaker 14: and friends of Bronwyn joy Winfield.

1462
01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:01,640
Speaker 13: That ends my role as corridor in these proceedings.

1463
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:06,519
Speaker 1: It also ends my role for some weeks in this

1464
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:11,120
Speaker 1: third season of the Bromwin podcast series. As you've heard,

1465
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 1: we are now pausing production the finishing touches to this episode.

1466
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:20,200
Speaker 1: The day before its release, two subscribers were happening on

1467
01:19:20,320 --> 01:19:25,679
Speaker 1: Bromwin's birthday, April twenty four, and very soon Bromwin will

1468
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 1: have been missing for thirty two years. Does anyone seriously

1469
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 1: believe that Bromwin was so annoyed with John or that

1470
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 1: some mythical sugar daddy was so persuasive and well off

1471
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 1: that this deeply devoted mother of two voluntarily stayed away

1472
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 1: from her girls, her family all that time, thirty two

1473
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:55,040
Speaker 1: years without contact or sightings by anyone. How was such

1474
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 1: a compelling case relegated to the too hard basket by

1475
01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 1: the Office the Director of Public Prosecutions twenty three years ago,

1476
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 1: after Carl's inquest wrapped up. When we come back, we

1477
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:13,519
Speaker 1: will try to find out now for something different. My

1478
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:19,800
Speaker 1: talented friend Matt Condon, crime writer, author, podcaster and investigator,

1479
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:23,760
Speaker 1: and a sneak preview of his new podcast series, The

1480
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:24,719
Speaker 1: Gangster's Ghost.

1481
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:30,839
Speaker 17: As a crime writer, I've always been fascinated by Stuart

1482
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:35,320
Speaker 17: John Reagan or Johnny Reagan, the psychopath's psychopath in terms

1483
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 17: of Australian criminal history. He burnt like an Oxyuscettlen torch

1484
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:46,719
Speaker 17: through Sydney from the mid sixties until he was gunned

1485
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:51,560
Speaker 17: down by three assassins. And by chance, I've got acquainted

1486
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:57,600
Speaker 17: with a cousin of Johnny Reagan, Kelly Slater. Reagan contacted

1487
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:01,520
Speaker 17: me and said, look, we'd like to look more seriously

1488
01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 17: into our long dead relative and see whether he was

1489
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 17: as big a monster as everyone says he was.

1490
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:14,320
Speaker 18: I'm an ex police officer and cousin of Johnny Reagan.

1491
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:17,960
Speaker 18: We're looking at doing a podcast on him, the good,

1492
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 18: the bad, the ugly, mostly the two Ladder, but his

1493
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,240
Speaker 18: childhood as well. We have letters and recordings that have

1494
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:29,760
Speaker 18: never been heard. Looking for help to make it work.

1495
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:32,000
Speaker 18: Kelly Slater Regan.

1496
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:37,160
Speaker 17: Kelly almost as an Aside said to me, We've got

1497
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:41,479
Speaker 17: the tapes, and I had to stop and ask her

1498
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 17: what do you mean by the tapes. The family had

1499
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 17: possession of some secret, real to real audio tapes that

1500
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:55,599
Speaker 17: Reagan himself had recorded on his home and office phones,

1501
01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 17: making dozens and dozens of discussions with crooks.

1502
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:00,360
Speaker 13: Law is.

1503
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:05,000
Speaker 17: The idea of these tapes bring the voice of the

1504
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 17: dead gangster to the listener's ears was absolutely irresistible. Reagan

1505
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:19,680
Speaker 17: was a lunatic, a maniac, a ruthless killer. He was

1506
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:24,120
Speaker 17: a gunman, a standover man, a rat with a gold tooth,

1507
01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:29,160
Speaker 17: a con artist, a business genius, and a crook with

1508
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:33,559
Speaker 17: movie star good looks who had an explosive temper.

1509
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 1: They said.

1510
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:38,920
Speaker 17: He murdered up to twelve people, and prior to his

1511
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:42,520
Speaker 17: death he had developed what may have been the greatest

1512
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:45,320
Speaker 17: land scam in Australian history.

1513
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:47,760
Speaker 13: You shouldn't have made it chard interested in.

1514
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:49,000
Speaker 8: You're lying in a third flighter.

1515
01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:52,960
Speaker 17: You're sitting in the same room with the ghost of

1516
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:57,559
Speaker 17: a gangster who's been dead for fifty years. He even

1517
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:01,120
Speaker 17: took a concealed miniature cassette recorder out into the streets

1518
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:06,400
Speaker 17: of King's Cross and Darlinghurst and captured conversations with other

1519
01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:08,560
Speaker 17: criminals and crooked cops.

1520
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 1: Corrupt cops, one of whom I heard in the first

1521
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 1: episode of your series.

1522
01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:21,000
Speaker 17: In my research over fifteen years for true crime books,

1523
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:24,799
Speaker 17: I've interviewed an amazing cast of characters. I would shoot

1524
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:27,920
Speaker 17: the breeze with Roger Rogerson about what he thought of Reagan.

1525
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 17: This is the notorious former New South Wales detective and

1526
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:36,360
Speaker 17: convicted murderer, Roger Rogerson.

1527
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 16: You can control a badman, but you can't control a madman.

1528
01:23:43,479 --> 01:23:44,639
Speaker 13: I've never ever forgotten.

1529
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 17: You will soon be hearing a lot of the gangster's ghost,

1530
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 17: as clear as if the killer himself had pulled up

1531
01:23:53,160 --> 01:23:57,240
Speaker 17: a chair at your kitchen table and settle down for

1532
01:23:57,320 --> 01:24:02,400
Speaker 17: a cup of tea and a chat. And now, incredibly,

1533
01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 17: the question is this was Johnny Reagan, in fact, Roger

1534
01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:09,320
Speaker 17: Robinson's first kill.

1535
01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:15,080
Speaker 1: With this story, you're dealing very closely with Kelly Reagan

1536
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:18,719
Speaker 1: and other members of the Reagan family because they hold

1537
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,800
Speaker 1: the keys to a lot of the information upon which

1538
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:29,639
Speaker 1: you are relying tapes and other documents, family artifacts. Reagan

1539
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 1: was a terrible person, a monster, a psychopath, a serial killer.

1540
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:44,920
Speaker 1: How do you manage the sometimes unavoidable tension where family

1541
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:50,559
Speaker 1: members want to see their relation possibly depicted one way,

1542
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:55,200
Speaker 1: whereas you know that the truth it goes the other way.

1543
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 17: Very good question, and it's an important question for a

1544
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:03,400
Speaker 17: story like the You have a family here, relatives of

1545
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:07,320
Speaker 17: this dead gangster who want to go deeper and to

1546
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:10,920
Speaker 17: get a sharper focus on what he was actually like

1547
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,960
Speaker 17: Kelly Slater, Reagan becomes a sort of co pilot on

1548
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 17: this journey. Kelly and I had a very frank discussion saying, look,

1549
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 17: the risk here is that you discover a bigger monster

1550
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 17: than you ever knew existed before. That's how dangerous and

1551
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:33,200
Speaker 17: monumentally violent he was. They're fully prepared, the Reagans are

1552
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:38,839
Speaker 17: fully prepared for the horrors that they might find, and indeed,

1553
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:42,040
Speaker 17: I can say they will find some on this journey.

1554
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 17: And we've found some fascinating things, and we've found some

1555
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:50,960
Speaker 17: extraordinary color, and we've found some horrific details.

1556
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:55,320
Speaker 1: The first episode was riveting. I look forward to hearing

1557
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:56,080
Speaker 1: everything else in it.

1558
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 17: Thanks so much.

1559
01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:15,559
Speaker 1: Adley Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas

1560
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:19,880
Speaker 1: as a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has

1561
01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: information which may help solve this cold case.

1562
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:24,559
Speaker 5: Please contact me.

1563
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:31,040
Speaker 1: Confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1564
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:34,680
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1565
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1566
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:45,559
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1567
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:50,639
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1568
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:56,639
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1569
01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Common and David Murray,

1570
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 1: with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast

1571
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:10,280
Speaker 1: series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by

1572
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 1: Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a

1573
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:18,400
Speaker 1: relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this kind

1574
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:21,720
Speaker 1: of journalism with the support of our subscribers and our

1575
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:23,960
Speaker 1: major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

1576
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:26,759
Speaker 5: For all of our exclusive.

1577
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:31,120
Speaker 1: Stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents about this podcast and

1578
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:35,000
Speaker 1: other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The

1579
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 1: Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver,

1580
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:45,880
Speaker 1: go to The Australian dot com, dot au and subscribe