1
00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,799
Speaker 1: Dr Tim Sharp, Welcome to the podcast.

2
00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:12,080
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

3
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 3: I should say the Australian version of Professor Richard Laird,

4
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,880
Speaker 3: which you will know, is a compliment, and many of

5
00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:22,920
Speaker 3: our listeners will not know that right.

6
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,280
Speaker 2: Maybe a compliment, maybe be dounrealistic. I'm not sure if

7
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm quite at that level, but thanks anyway.

8
00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:35,880
Speaker 3: So, look, you have a very long history in psychology

9
00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,280
Speaker 3: and then have focused more and more on happiness. You've

10
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 3: done TV shows only, You've got the Happiness Institute, You've

11
00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,320
Speaker 3: been all over the media on it. Tell it gives

12
00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,920
Speaker 3: you our listeners a little bit of sense of your

13
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 3: background just in terms of general psychology. And then why

14
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,520
Speaker 3: did you choose to focus on happiness as a psychologist.

15
00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I'll give I was trying to give it

16
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 2: a shorter version, and then if you helped me to

17
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,760
Speaker 2: elaborate on anhing, feel free to ask away. But my

18
00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,039
Speaker 2: background started out in what most people would consider a

19
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 2: fairly traditional psychology path. So I started studying what what's

20
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,880
Speaker 2: known is clinical well, I did an initial psychology degree,

21
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,360
Speaker 2: then clinical psychology, which is what most people think of.

22
00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,559
Speaker 2: So that's therapy essentially learning how to understand and treat

23
00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,839
Speaker 2: diagnosable disorders like depression and anxiety, et cetera, et cetera.

24
00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 2: But fairly soon on I realized I wanted to be

25
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,680
Speaker 2: an academic, so on top of my clinical masters to

26
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,640
Speaker 2: go to a PhD. And was sailing along very nicely

27
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,720
Speaker 2: in what at the time was my dream job. I

28
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,960
Speaker 2: was what's known as a clinical academic, so I was

29
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,520
Speaker 2: both a therapist working as a therapist treating people with

30
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 2: arrange of conditions, but I was also lecturing and doing research,

31
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,760
Speaker 2: and at the time that really was my dream. I

32
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,480
Speaker 2: was working with a fantastic team in a highly regarded clinic,

33
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,800
Speaker 2: academic clinic. And then I guess I surprised everyone, including myself,

34
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 2: when I left all of that for a variety of

35
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 2: both personal and professional reasons, and I went into private practice,

36
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 2: which is not something I'd ever considered at the time,

37
00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 2: and I didn't really think it would be a long

38
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 2: term option. But it turned out I had a bit

39
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 2: of an entrepreneurial gene I didn't realize I had at

40
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 2: the time, and that practice grew into a sizeable business,

41
00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,920
Speaker 2: and before I knew it, I was not just a

42
00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 2: clinical academic, but I guess a businessman, and that wasn't

43
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 2: really what I ever intended to be. I mean, I

44
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,640
Speaker 2: set out to help people, and I was doing that

45
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,120
Speaker 2: in a way. But I distinctly remember coming home one

46
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:33,960
Speaker 2: day and my wife was said, you know, you're not

47
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,760
Speaker 2: doing what you enjoy anymore. Because I was spending all

48
00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,560
Speaker 2: my time running the business and had forty or fifty

49
00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,720
Speaker 2: staff and multiple officers. I was talking to lawyers and accountants,

50
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,720
Speaker 2: and although I mean, I don't regret it at all,

51
00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,120
Speaker 2: it was incredibly successful and incredibly satisfying him. Anyways, I

52
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,120
Speaker 2: did take a step back at that point and say, oh,

53
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,120
Speaker 2: what am I actually doing here? And it was around

54
00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,920
Speaker 2: that time, very close to that time, that the very early,

55
00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 2: very very early sort of seedley or sprouts of what's

56
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,840
Speaker 2: known as positive psychology started to pop up. Many people

57
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,959
Speaker 2: would know Martin Selgman, and he was just starting to

58
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 2: write some of his early stuff then. So as I

59
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 2: was reviewing my professional life and my business life, I

60
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 2: suppose I started to see these signs of positive psychology,

61
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 2: which I just it was immediate you it was love

62
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 2: at first sight, I suppose, because that's what I always

63
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,560
Speaker 2: wanted to do. I mean, I went into psychology thinking

64
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,799
Speaker 2: I wanted to make people happy, but what I was

65
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,520
Speaker 2: really doing was making them less unhappy, which is exactly

66
00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,480
Speaker 2: the same thing. So anyway, at that time, no one

67
00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 2: in Australia was really had really picked up on positive psychology,

68
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 2: which is a bit of a surprise. And so that's

69
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 2: when I established the Happiness Institute in a way, I

70
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 2: guess starting to wanted to draw attention to this new

71
00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,280
Speaker 2: field that I was really excited about. And that's when

72
00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,880
Speaker 2: I started to focus more on positive psychology and happiness

73
00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,080
Speaker 2: and started to talk more and help people more work

74
00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 2: towards thriving and flourishing as opposed to just overcoming stress

75
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 2: and depression. And I guess again this is the short version.

76
00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,760
Speaker 2: They made lots of other sideways along the way, but

77
00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,680
Speaker 2: that's been the main focus of my life, or my

78
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 2: professional life, my career, you know, for the last or

79
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 2: two decades or so.

80
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,480
Speaker 3: Now, okay, cool, and I'm going to start then with

81
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:21,400
Speaker 3: a pretty slippery question. So let's define happiness, right, and

82
00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,880
Speaker 3: you know, give some different options, and what is the

83
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,279
Speaker 3: difference between what the average person on the street would

84
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,360
Speaker 3: think of as happiness and some of the stuff that

85
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,640
Speaker 3: you talked about, like flourishing, subjective well being. You know,

86
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,279
Speaker 3: the Stoic philosophers and the into Greeks talked about you

87
00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,239
Speaker 3: de Munia. So give us a bit of a sense

88
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:48,600
Speaker 3: of what happiness means to just normal lay people, and

89
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,320
Speaker 3: then a more academic version of it.

90
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,160
Speaker 2: It's a great question because I think if you were

91
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:55,800
Speaker 2: to ask that of most people, you say, you know,

92
00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 2: what is happenings? Most people would think it's a fairly

93
00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,359
Speaker 2: simple question, and yeah, I guess it Isn't it isn't

94
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:02,520
Speaker 2: It is in a way. But then again, as you

95
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,719
Speaker 2: quite rightly pointed out, if you ask academics, there's a

96
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,680
Speaker 2: whole bunch of related but slightly different constructs that are

97
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,640
Speaker 2: often confused. Again, so those happiness, there's well being as well.

98
00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,320
Speaker 2: And as there's unimonia, there's thriving, there's flourishing, et cetera,

99
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,160
Speaker 2: et cetera, in a quality of life, life satisfaction, all

100
00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,200
Speaker 2: of which are similar in many many ways, but also different.

101
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,040
Speaker 2: So let me go back to the beginning of your question.

102
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,599
Speaker 2: If you ask the average person on the street, you know,

103
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 2: what does happiness mean? They'll probably answer, more often than not,

104
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,840
Speaker 2: they answer that by thinking about how they're feeling at

105
00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 2: that point in time. Which is a perfectly valid answer.

106
00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,080
Speaker 2: So happiness that probably the simplest way to think about

107
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,479
Speaker 2: happiness is one form of positive emotion. Now, what we

108
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,600
Speaker 2: know is there's a whole range of positive emotions. Happiness

109
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,360
Speaker 2: is just one, but there's also joy and love and

110
00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,240
Speaker 2: gratitude and satisfaction and calm and contentment, et cetera, et cetera. Again,

111
00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,560
Speaker 2: all of which are related but slightly different. So I

112
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,640
Speaker 2: guess that's the simplest way to think about it, that

113
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 2: happiness is one form of positive emotion. But what we

114
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,200
Speaker 2: know about emotions, not just positive ones, but negative ones too,

115
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,479
Speaker 2: things like stress and anxiety and depression, is that by definition,

116
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,239
Speaker 2: they're kind of fleeting. They come and go, they don't

117
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 2: really last that long, and I'm talking about minutes maybe

118
00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,200
Speaker 2: hours at the most of these sorts of things that

119
00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,039
Speaker 2: they know, they're always fluctuating. So in some ways that's

120
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,080
Speaker 2: not really what positive psychologists are interested Well, it is.

121
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 2: It is a very interesting and very important construct. But

122
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,279
Speaker 2: if you talk to positive psychologists or people that study

123
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,720
Speaker 2: the science of well being, what they're more interested in,

124
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 2: and this is part of it, is again what we

125
00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,279
Speaker 2: call thriving and flourishing or what as you refer to

126
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,760
Speaker 2: might refer to as you'd ammonia, and that's a deeper

127
00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,839
Speaker 2: sense of life satisfaction, something that's I guess, longer lasting

128
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,320
Speaker 2: and more meaningful in a way, something that doesn't vary

129
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 2: from minute to minute. So what we're talking more about

130
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 2: they is again quality of life things that I guess

131
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,479
Speaker 2: a construct that does involve positive emotions, so that's a

132
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 2: part of it, but it also involves again deeper and

133
00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 2: longer lasting constructs life meaning and purpose, like physical health

134
00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,560
Speaker 2: and well being, like very much about the quality of

135
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,720
Speaker 2: our relationships is very very important, So you know, so

136
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:11,880
Speaker 2: that's really I guess what I've focused on and what

137
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,640
Speaker 2: many academics would have focused on, more than just positive emotions,

138
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 2: although they are still important.

139
00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 3: And so when when you're talking about happiness within the

140
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 3: Happiness Institute and when you generally talk about it.

141
00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 1: Are you are you aligned to some.

142
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 3: Of the models that are out there, whether it's flourishing

143
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,000
Speaker 3: from Cory Keys, or the perma model from Martin Seligman,

144
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,440
Speaker 3: or or any any particular ones. Because there's you know,

145
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,360
Speaker 3: there's lots of different ones out there. What are the

146
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,920
Speaker 3: ones that you align with most in terms of your

147
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,360
Speaker 3: own view of that general happiness.

148
00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,800
Speaker 2: Well, all of the above, I suppose. I mean, as

149
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 2: I said, my backgrounds in academia, so I'm very much

150
00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,480
Speaker 2: focused on what's with what the evidence supports, and I suppose,

151
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,760
Speaker 2: or to begin with, there's no doubt that Martin's Elegment's

152
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 2: work influenced me like I did most people in this field.

153
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 2: So that perma model that you referred to, well that

154
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,400
Speaker 2: was actually not even his first version. There was a

155
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 2: version before that, but that was very influential in my

156
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 2: early cret and still is. You know, that still holds

157
00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,360
Speaker 2: a lot of credibility. I think there's you know, there's

158
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,960
Speaker 2: a bit of debate about where it should be tweaked

159
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 2: or could be tweaked, But there's no doubt that perme

160
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:25,520
Speaker 2: you know that those fire.

161
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 3: We actually go through paramoun for people and then we

162
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 3: can dive into other rabbit holes.

163
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:30,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

164
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,679
Speaker 2: So, for those who aren't familiar, premers an acronym the

165
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 2: stands for positive emotions engagement relationships, meaning an achievement or accomplishment. Now,

166
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,080
Speaker 2: there's no doubt that those things are important, and I

167
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,160
Speaker 2: don't think anyone in the field would dispute that those

168
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,760
Speaker 2: are you know, key pillars of thriving and flourishing. Again,

169
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:52,760
Speaker 2: there are many people who would add to that or

170
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,199
Speaker 2: modify it. So, for example, one of the criticisms, I

171
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,680
Speaker 2: suppose has been that it doesn't really address physical health

172
00:08:58,679 --> 00:08:59,079
Speaker 2: and well being.

173
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, because a hitchin a letter didn't he Yeah.

174
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:07,319
Speaker 2: Was such evolved into permit plus or permit age. It's

175
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 2: been you know, again, there's been multiple variations. Well, the

176
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 2: film's been around for twenty or thirty years or twenty

177
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 2: plus years now, so of course it's it has evolved.

178
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,600
Speaker 2: That's what science does. So yeah, so that's certainly one,

179
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,880
Speaker 2: you know, variations of that that have been very influential

180
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,000
Speaker 2: in my career, in my life, and that's what I've

181
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 2: certainly taught. Corey Keyes has been very influential and one

182
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,400
Speaker 2: that I think is very underestimated. So he's very highly

183
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,640
Speaker 2: regarded amongst academics, I would say, but definitely not as

184
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,440
Speaker 2: well known in the general public as Salman or some

185
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 2: of the others. So I guess to.

186
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,080
Speaker 1: Be temp just to John be.

187
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,640
Speaker 3: You know what I really like Corey keyes research, because

188
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,040
Speaker 3: I dug into that a number of years ago, is

189
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 3: the link between his flourishing model and lots of real

190
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 3: world outcomes such as medical issues as well as both

191
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 3: psychological and medically shoes as well. So whenever I ran it,

192
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,120
Speaker 3: and this was years ago, when I went into it,

193
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,360
Speaker 3: I thought there's a fur bit more substance around this

194
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 3: than some of the earlier things, which would you be

195
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 3: aligned with that sort of thinking.

196
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,000
Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. Look again, I think his work's been fantastic,

197
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,840
Speaker 2: been a fantastic researcher and has said he hasn't been

198
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,760
Speaker 2: well for whatever reason. His work hasn't caught the popular

199
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 2: attention as well as Segment of Seglements and some of

200
00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,640
Speaker 2: the others. And you know, some people have criticized Seglement

201
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 2: for being sort of maybe too popular or whatever, but

202
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 2: I don't think that's I wouldn't see that as a criticism.

203
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,120
Speaker 2: I think that's an important skill and I suppose that's

204
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,200
Speaker 2: what I've one of the things I've tried to do

205
00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,560
Speaker 2: is take the science and translated and communicate it in

206
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 2: a way that's easy to understand. And you know, Marti

207
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,719
Speaker 2: Seligman's been fantastic at that, as some others. And I

208
00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,360
Speaker 2: don't know if Corey Keys, I'm not sure if he's

209
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,600
Speaker 2: tried or not. But for whatever reason, his reason hasn't

210
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,280
Speaker 2: been quite as popular, but it's incredibly important. It's incredibly valuable.

211
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,440
Speaker 2: And what I've particularly enjoyed. One of the things that

212
00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 2: I've really taken out of his work particularly is this

213
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,360
Speaker 2: this quadrant that he works on between sort of psychological

214
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,840
Speaker 2: well being. Sorry that so that the difference between mental

215
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,439
Speaker 2: ill health and happiness. So, for example, you can still

216
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,559
Speaker 2: you know, people who have higher levels of mental ill

217
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,959
Speaker 2: health can still be happy and vice versa, et cetera.

218
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,480
Speaker 2: And that's something you know, that's sort of a complex,

219
00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,439
Speaker 2: subtlety that not everyone has understood as well. But yeah,

220
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,680
Speaker 2: there's no doubt that his work has been super important

221
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,080
Speaker 2: to many people who work in this area.

222
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:34,000
Speaker 3: And let's just dive into that a little bit around languishing.

223
00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,319
Speaker 3: I don't know if he still uses that terminology, but

224
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,760
Speaker 3: but give us the difference between between those are some

225
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:43,640
Speaker 3: of the things that you would see in the different

226
00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,679
Speaker 3: quadrants and why languishing is particularly bad.

227
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:49,199
Speaker 1: Yeah.

228
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,240
Speaker 2: So language, Actually, I think it's fantastic word well, because

229
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:54,800
Speaker 2: I think it's very descriptive.

230
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:55,400
Speaker 1: And it's quite descriptive.

231
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,760
Speaker 3: Right, it's almost like on a matter of payers, like

232
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,800
Speaker 3: you're saying, it's like it's a bit like right.

233
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:04,800
Speaker 2: Well, I agree, and I think if there's people out

234
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,080
Speaker 2: there who have never heard it before, I reckon they

235
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,319
Speaker 2: can probably work out what it means straight away. It's

236
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,440
Speaker 2: very discoct and that's I mean, it's almost made maybe

237
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,080
Speaker 2: by accent, but it's a fantastic essentially it means. So

238
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,640
Speaker 2: it's put up as the opposite almost that from thriving

239
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,679
Speaker 2: and flourishing. So thriving and flourishing are words that are

240
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,000
Speaker 2: as I referred to earlier, kind of the bigger picture

241
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,200
Speaker 2: versions of happiness, so that it's not just about feeling good,

242
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,199
Speaker 2: it's about doing good and just living a good life

243
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:33,920
Speaker 2: for what I guess maybe in some of the pop

244
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,720
Speaker 2: psychology the would call living your best life. That's essentially

245
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,360
Speaker 2: what thriving and flourishing is about, and that's what I guess,

246
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:40,839
Speaker 2: that's what most of us have. All of us want

247
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,160
Speaker 2: a way in towards in some way. Languishing is the

248
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,840
Speaker 2: opposite or end of that. For example, it's about not

249
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,719
Speaker 2: feeling good, it's about feeling depressed and anxious and just

250
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,079
Speaker 2: about not having energy and not having motivation and really

251
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,800
Speaker 2: not succeeding in life. However you define that. So you know, again,

252
00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,120
Speaker 2: I think that's something that many of us can relate to.

253
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,480
Speaker 2: I think most of us the experienced even a little

254
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,000
Speaker 2: bit of it at some point in time. Some people

255
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,880
Speaker 2: experienced a lot of it. But yeah, it's a very

256
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,640
Speaker 2: important construct which again probably hasn't caught the popular attention

257
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,040
Speaker 2: as much as some other descriptors or words, but it's

258
00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,160
Speaker 2: again a very important one within the field.

259
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 3: So let's not talk about the role of money because

260
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,640
Speaker 3: in the West, particularly, I think a lot of people

261
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 3: tend to be focused.

262
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,400
Speaker 1: On money, and as you will well know more than others.

263
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,719
Speaker 3: Ten, there's all of this advertising around us telling us

264
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 3: that the secret to happiness, whether whether they do it

265
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 3: overtly or covertly, that that the secret to happiness is

266
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,920
Speaker 3: around materialism. What does the science actually say about that

267
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:54,920
Speaker 3: and the contribution of money to overall subjective wellbeing, thriving, flourishing, Like,

268
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,319
Speaker 3: how important is it? And what are the limitations? I

269
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:58,680
Speaker 3: guess is another way of asking.

270
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,240
Speaker 2: So I'm going to answer that. I'll start answering that

271
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,680
Speaker 2: by assuming that I think that most of our listeners

272
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,000
Speaker 2: probably will live in what we would call the Western world,

273
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 2: but I guess Australia the UK, maybe America, so because

274
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,880
Speaker 2: there are some cultural differences, but if I'm talking mostly

275
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,480
Speaker 2: to people certainly here in Australia where I am, but again,

276
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 2: it's pretty much the same in the UK and North America.

277
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 2: To go back to a point you make, it's pretty bloody, Averts.

278
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,960
Speaker 2: It's not subtle at all. We are bombarded every minute

279
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,040
Speaker 2: of every day by messages, advertising marketing messages that tell us, essentially,

280
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,000
Speaker 2: you won't be happy unless you have these things, and

281
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,479
Speaker 2: to get these things you need money. So material possessions

282
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,640
Speaker 2: and consumerism. Isn't it a sent It seemed to be

283
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 2: an essential part of living a good life in the

284
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 2: cultures and the societies in which we live. So which

285
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 2: relates to us? Suppose that question has been asked millions

286
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 2: of times. I suppose does money by happiness? Can you

287
00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,600
Speaker 2: buy happiness? The answer from psychologists and the loos it's

288
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 2: often no. But that's not entirely correct. Nouns is really

289
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,920
Speaker 2: yes and though, and I'll try to explain that a

290
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,080
Speaker 2: bit further So, when people say no, money doesn't buy happiness,

291
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,640
Speaker 2: that's a little bit misleading because the extent to which

292
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 2: the answer is yes, I know, varies depending on where

293
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 2: you are on the economic spectrum us abit so to

294
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,240
Speaker 2: give you, and I'll oversimplify this a bit, but I

295
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 2: think we have to oversimplify it because it does get

296
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 2: very complicated. If you're at the very low levels, the

297
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,400
Speaker 2: very low socoquinement levels, it's so poorly paid. I'm struggling

298
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,640
Speaker 2: to pay the rent, struggling to put food on the table,

299
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 2: you know, struggling to pay your bills, et cetera. Then

300
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 2: more money will actually make you happier, there's no doubt

301
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 2: about it. Well, at the very least it will remove

302
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,520
Speaker 2: a significant stress or because struggling to pay the bills,

303
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,160
Speaker 2: et cetera is very stressful, creates anxiety and ect et cetera.

304
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 2: So the very least it will remove significant stresses, but

305
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,920
Speaker 2: it will actually improve the quality of your life because

306
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 2: you can start to actually not just go from week

307
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,480
Speaker 2: to week and pay the bills, but maybe enjoy a

308
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 2: few creature comforts. However, this is where it gets a

309
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,720
Speaker 2: bit more complicated once you get above. And the big

310
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,240
Speaker 2: question here, I suppose is how much is enough? Yes,

311
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of debate about this, but once

312
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,280
Speaker 2: you get above, what most economists or psychologists awake in

313
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 2: this area, consider an average salary or income or house

314
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 2: and this again where it gets complicated because some of

315
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 2: the studies look at household.

316
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,960
Speaker 1: Income and some looks at individuals.

317
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 2: Right, but let's not worry about that for now. Once

318
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,560
Speaker 2: you get above whatever we define is enough, and there

319
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 2: is some question about that, then what we see is

320
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 2: that more and more money doesn't necessarily lead to more

321
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 2: and more happiness. It only leads to a tiny bit.

322
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 2: So it's effectively a law of diminishing. So you get

323
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,760
Speaker 2: you do get more happiness from more money up to

324
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 2: a certain point, and then it effectively tailors off, doesn't

325
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 2: completely flatten, because if we look at the research, the

326
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,720
Speaker 2: wealthy people are happier, but not by a lot. And

327
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 2: the other thing, though, factor into there, is that there

328
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 2: are other variables that contribute more significantly to our happiness

329
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,639
Speaker 2: and health and well being. So money isn't the only thing,

330
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 2: of course, So it is one thing, and it does

331
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,880
Speaker 2: play a role, there's no doubt about it. But when

332
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,440
Speaker 2: we look at the most important contributing factors, it's things

333
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 2: like the quality of our relationships, the sense to which

334
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,400
Speaker 2: we feel connected or belonging, our physical health and wellbeing,

335
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 2: and these are things that don't necessarily require money. So

336
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,480
Speaker 2: that's why we get the answer. Yes and no. I

337
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 2: suppose it is important, but probably not as important as

338
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:32,040
Speaker 2: most people think.

339
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

340
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think that is really important for people

341
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 3: to understand.

342
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,679
Speaker 2: And so I just said, there's another part of that too,

343
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,480
Speaker 2: which is that how you spend your money can affect

344
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:44,159
Speaker 2: the extent to which it.

345
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, which I do want to get into because I

346
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 3: think that's a pretty good topic to do a dive into.

347
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 3: But I remember reading so there's a number of peopers

348
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,399
Speaker 3: there down Air's done a lot of research in that

349
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,359
Speaker 3: area in terms of the money, which you'll be aware of.

350
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,280
Speaker 1: And then Sonia libermis.

351
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,320
Speaker 3: Key is it I think yes, And then I read

352
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,679
Speaker 3: I can't remember who had written the paper, but it

353
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 3: was Sonia Libermisky or somebody else, but it was it

354
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:16,159
Speaker 3: was more about money in the bank that it was

355
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,920
Speaker 3: really Yes, money can all those things that you said

356
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 3: that if you're lower, it has a bigger impact on you,

357
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,359
Speaker 3: and as you rightly pointed out, because it just makes

358
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,680
Speaker 3: your life easier and you're not worried and stressed so much.

359
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 3: But then it was when it gets above a certain level,

360
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,000
Speaker 3: it's the money in the bank. The savings tends to

361
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,919
Speaker 3: have a better impact than your income alone, because you

362
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,239
Speaker 3: can have a high income but still have a lot

363
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 3: of debt because you're overspending.

364
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:46,160
Speaker 1: Right.

365
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 3: So that's I think a little nuance that a lot

366
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 3: of people don't realize is.

367
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,320
Speaker 1: That just earning more money, it's not the big thing.

368
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,439
Speaker 3: It's whether or not you actually have some squirreled away,

369
00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:58,879
Speaker 3: which then you can.

370
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 1: Spend on the things that are more important, which we

371
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 1: will get into. But that is that your understanding of

372
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:08,560
Speaker 1: it as well.

373
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 2: Oh sure, And even just Danik natally so quite it

374
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 2: was quite a few years ago now, but I did

375
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 2: a big project a while ago with a financial advisory

376
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,200
Speaker 2: firm basically, so a big firm of financial advisors who's

377
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 2: their job was helping people manage their money. And it

378
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 2: was fascinating. And this also, you know, a while ago,

379
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,520
Speaker 2: I used to do a lot of executive coaching as well. Yes,

380
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,440
Speaker 2: you know, there's are by definition, those are pretty sen

381
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 2: you're pretty successful people, you know, C level executives, et cetera.

382
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,920
Speaker 2: And the one example I often reverard to you because

383
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's just one example, but it's a

384
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 2: it's a good example of the point you're trying to

385
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 2: make was a senior partner of a professional service firm.

386
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,159
Speaker 2: So literally, and this is years ago now, it was

387
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 2: literally whose income was at least a million dollars a year. Now,

388
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 2: for most people, that would seem like a hell of

389
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 2: a lot of money, and it is. It is a

390
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 2: hell of a lot of money. But as he quite

391
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 2: rightly pointed out, his expenses, his costs were more than that,

392
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 2: so he didn't feel wealthy, and in fact, he frequently

393
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,719
Speaker 2: felt under financial strain. You say that someone earning a

394
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,160
Speaker 2: million dollars a year not feel wealthy, feel under financial

395
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 2: stain because he's spending more. So it's pretty simple formula. Really,

396
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 2: if your expense is outweigh her income, you're not wealthy.

397
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 2: So you know that's that's another factor of that. But

398
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 2: the key thing I suppose is that when you got

399
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 2: that money in the bank type question is that I

400
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 2: guess what it does is buy freedom by it's not

401
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 2: the money, you know, set what it is the money,

402
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: But it's not the money, but it's what doesn't mean

403
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 2: it does?

404
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, well the opportunities is what does it allow you

405
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 1: to do it?

406
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, So let's not talk about some of the other

407
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 3: things that contribute to that. So we've we've established that

408
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,439
Speaker 3: that happiness is basically a positive emotion that can be fleeting,

409
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 3: and there's lots of other things. But when we want

410
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:58,360
Speaker 3: to get into that deeper life satisfaction flourishing, what are

411
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 3: some of the big things that pop up? So let's

412
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 3: sort of take them one by one. You mentioned earlier

413
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,119
Speaker 3: on relationships, let's talk about that.

414
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,879
Speaker 2: Well, look, you know i'd have to say and not

415
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 2: just what i'd say, because what I say doesn't really

416
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 2: mean anything. What the research says is that that's almost

417
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 2: certainly the most significant factor if you look at all

418
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 2: the research well in psychology, in positive psychology, in health

419
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: and will being, in longevity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,

420
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 2: et cetera. The number one factor that stands out time

421
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 2: and time again is the quality of our relationships or

422
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 2: versions of that, which is a sense of connectedness or

423
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 2: a sense of belonging. We referred to a couple of

424
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: the big names in positive psychology in Martin st. Mardi Selgman,

425
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 2: and Corey Keys, et cetera. But one of the other founders,

426
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 2: I suppose was Professor Christopher Peterson, and Chris Pederson was

427
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 2: a legend of the area. Unfortunately he died a few

428
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 2: years ago now, but at the time, you know, a

429
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,199
Speaker 2: few years ago now, Chris, he spent literally decades of

430
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:05,360
Speaker 2: his life before positive psychology was officially a thing, researching

431
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,239
Speaker 2: living a good life? What does it mean to live

432
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 2: a good life? And at a conference once he was asked,

433
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: after twenty thirty years, however long it's been, you know,

434
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: what have you learned? What's the most important things you've

435
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 2: learned about living a good life? He famously has become

436
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: quite a famous story now famously responded by said, I

437
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 2: can sum that up in three words. This is an

438
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 2: academic who's written multiple books, hundreds of research articles, dedicated

439
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,959
Speaker 2: twenty thirty years of his life, and he's summing all

440
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: of us up in three words. He said, other people matter,

441
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 2: so to hear after all of his research and all

442
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: of his work. And another famous example of that was

443
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 2: so Professor George Valence, who was one of the one

444
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: of many leaders in what's been known as the Harvard

445
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 2: Adult Men's Study of a famous study in longevity that

446
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 2: it's been going for like seventy or eighty years now.

447
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 2: So there's been multiple leads on that, and he was

448
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 2: one of the leads for quite a long time. He

449
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 2: was asked a similar question a few years I said,

450
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 2: what have you learned or what have we learned from

451
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 2: this seventy years of research into longevity? And he actually

452
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 2: did better than Chris Betterson. He sums it up in

453
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 2: one word. He said love. He didn't mean sort of

454
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 2: intimate love or romantic love, although that's a part of it,

455
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 2: but essentially what he's saying is love for rather than

456
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 2: being love. So and we say this time and time again. Yes,

457
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: there are other variables that are important, and I'm sure

458
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 2: we'll come to them in a minute. But if I

459
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: had to, if I was forced to name the most

460
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: significant contributing fact to the health and wellbeing and thriving

461
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 2: and flourishing, whatever you want to call it, I would

462
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 2: almost certainly say relationships or connectedness.

463
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 3: There you go, and then think, I guess we only

464
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,360
Speaker 3: need to look at the opposite of that, which is loneliness,

465
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 3: and the impact that loneliness has not only on well

466
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 3: being but on longevity. And it's actually as bad for

467
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 3: you as smoking twenty second hour today, I think that

468
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 3: the stats are our own loneliness.

469
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: Right, Really, it's quite shocking. And so there are many

470
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: public health expects, So people that study health on a

471
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 2: sort of global level, not just in most of my works.

472
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 2: I suppose it kind of on an individual or a

473
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: small level in a way, but people who look at

474
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: these things at a global level or really are saying

475
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 2: that it's probably, if not now, will soon become the

476
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: biggest health factor, you know, killing more people than cardiovascud is,

477
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: these depression, et cetera. So leneliness, as you said, the

478
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 2: kind of the opposite end of connecteds is a massive,

479
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 2: massive problem in something which unfortunately seems to be increasing.

480
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: We really need to address it.

481
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

482
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And dare I say unfortunately more in men? M M.

483
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: Now that's that's really interesting.

484
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 3: Is there is there a particular edge group in Man

485
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 3: that loneliness becomes more of an.

486
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: Issue of.

487
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 2: Uh, it's been I'll just qualify this for saying it's

488
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: been a while since I've looked at their research. But

489
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: from what I remember, there's sort of fluctuations or there's

490
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 2: the different periods of life. So I think if I'm

491
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: just going to be a bit careful here, because it

492
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 2: has been a while since I've looked at a From

493
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: what I remember, it was worse in younger men and

494
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: then what you might call middle aged or middle aged

495
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 2: or older men. So when you know, when when children

496
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 2: have left home, that's sort of forty five fifteen plus

497
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: age groups. So yeah, but it's it's a significant problem

498
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: well for all, I mean not just for men, but

499
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: for many many people. Older people particularly is becoming an

500
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: issue now as we're living older, you know, so life

501
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: expectancing is increasing, which you'd say is a good thing,

502
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: but not necessarily if we're lonely and sick and miserable.

503
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And look, I think that's what the health bit

504
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 3: comes into it as well. And tim right, so when

505
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: when people get older, if they're not particularly healthy, they

506
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 3: end up spending a lot more time indoors and on

507
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 3: their own, which is really not good for the human

508
00:25:54,040 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 3: brain in general and particularly your well being overall. See,

509
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 3: just as you were talking about older man, I remember

510
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 3: my dad talking to me, so a little anecdote and

511
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 3: I'll get your opinion on this.

512
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: I went back.

513
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: It was a number of years ago and my dad

514
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: had said that something had really started happening in Ireland

515
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 3: with middle aged men and particularly farmers a massive spike

516
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 3: in suicide whenever Island firmly enacted drink driving laws, and

517
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 3: it was the last country in Western Europe to firmly

518
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: put those laws into place. And he said the problem

519
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 3: was that these older men, and particularly a lot of

520
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 3: them farmers, would live very lonely existences out working in

521
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 3: the field and the church their church was the pub,

522
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: and they would come into the pub a couple of

523
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: times a week and they would sit around and chat

524
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: to the other blokes and have three or four pints

525
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 3: and then they drive home. Right, that's the reality of

526
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 3: what happened. And then when they broad in those laws,

527
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 3: they realized and they started enforcing it. If I lose

528
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: my license, I lose my entire livelihood. So they stopped

529
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 3: going to the pub and then suicide rates went through

530
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 3: the roof.

531
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: Comment on that, yeah, yeah, well, I haven't heard of

532
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 2: that specific story in Ireland, but certainly so in Australia.

533
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: We've certainly got very higher rates of suicide, particularly in men,

534
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 2: and particularly in rural and regional areas. So I'm wonderful

535
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: I suspect there's some similarities there. Let me before I

536
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 2: go on, I definitely I think drink driving laws are

537
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: very important.

538
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, so I suggested bad thing, right, but no, no,

539
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 3: just consequences right exactly.

540
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: So I think, but I think that is inportant to know.

541
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: But what you said is, you know, there are often

542
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: consequences to the rules you make or the laws you make,

543
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, what seems to have happened then is that

544
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: that particular law, which I think we agree is a

545
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 2: good thing, inadvertently led to isolate and loneliness, which is

546
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: not a good thing obviously. So you know, and again

547
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 2: I think we see that in rural and regional areas

548
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: in Australia particularly as well, where not just because of

549
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: the drink driving, but just because of distance. And we've

550
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 2: got such huge to be connected, to stay connected with

551
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: other people, with other men. So I mean, one of

552
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: the solutions to that that's been quite successful is men's sheds. Yes,

553
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: you're probably familiar with them, which is fantastic initiative, which

554
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: is essentially recreating that in a in a workshop. So

555
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: you know, you don't necessarily I guess need the alcohol there.

556
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 2: But but i'll cut to the chase. I guess you

557
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: know what that does highlight is it is obviously important

558
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: to be connected and as soon as we start or

559
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: anything that contributes to loneliness or isolation is going to

560
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: have a significant impact on people's mental health and physical

561
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: health and well being as well.

562
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

563
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Let's like talk about the big curly one, meaning

564
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: and purpose, Right, So firstly, what impact, Like, why is

565
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: it important? And how important is it to have a

566
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: sense of meaning and purpose in your life?

567
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, looks it's super important. And I said, that's one

568
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: of the big pillars or big guns, whatever you're want

569
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: to court it. It's definitely Again when you look at

570
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: the research that comes up time and time again, and

571
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: I suppose the way I think about it in some

572
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: ways I guess is that that's what takes the positive

573
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: emotion part of happiness to the thriving and flourishing part

574
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: of happiness. You know, that's why meaning and purpose adds

575
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: that deeper level, because if you have that meaning and purpose,

576
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: that's what you know that gets you through those day

577
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: to day there fluctuations. We're all going to have good

578
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: and bad days. We're going to have shitty days. You know,

579
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: stuff's going to go wrong. You know, technology is going

580
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: to fail, someone's going to let us down. That's that's life,

581
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: you know. So there will be times in our life,

582
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: some more than others, I suppose, and some more significant

583
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: than others. But there will always be times when shitty

584
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: stuff happens, we get frustrated and whatever. But the meaning

585
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: and purpose is a big part of what helps you

586
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: get through that, because that provides is a bigger perspective,

587
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: something beyond beyond me as an individual. So if I

588
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: know you know that, I guess it puts my personal

589
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: problems into perspective. That's a big part of what it

590
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: does perspective. So you know, without that, we can really

591
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: get tossed backwards and forwards by the day to day

592
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: whatever is. Whereas if we have that, that's the rudder

593
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: that steers the ship. I suppose I'm using a whole

594
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: lot of metaphors here, but yeah, it's important for that reason,

595
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: and you know, it gives us a reason to keep

596
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: going through hard times and a sense of satisfaction beyond

597
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: that sort of superficial pleasure that we get from from

598
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: lesser things.

599
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 3: I think that it's really important that you mired that distinguished.

600
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: I show you distinguished between those two points.

601
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: I think you know.

602
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 3: I'm doing a lot of research and my PSC into

603
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: the concept the psychological constructive heartiness, which is, you know, control,

604
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: orientational challenge and the commitment or orientation, and from commitment

605
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: to orientation. A massive part of it is meaning and purpose.

606
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: And they've shown over and over again in the research

607
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 3: that when you believe that you're doing something meaningful or

608
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: when you're going through difficulties, I mean, Victor Frankl talked

609
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 3: about this Man's search for meaning that when you can

610
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: create or ascribe meaning to your situation, if it feels meaningful,

611
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 3: then it helps to buffer stress.

612
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: And I think that that is massive, right.

613
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: I think there was a famous buses study where some

614
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: of the people just thought they were driving a bus,

615
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 3: and then other people thought that there was meaning behind it,

616
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: and some of the drivers that they were doing meaningful

617
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: work and they had a lot less cardiovascular disease and

618
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 3: other stuff.

619
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: So I think that stress buffering is one thing, but then.

620
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: There's the other side of it, where you feel like

621
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: you have a sense of meaning in life and you

622
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 3: are then more in geared in life.

623
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: They are just stink Dante the.

624
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: Distinct but complimentary you know, it's almost like, I guess,

625
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: two sides of the same coin. And and yeah, there's

626
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: there's a you know, there's another metaphor along with that

627
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: bus driver one, I suppose, which is the you know,

628
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: the bricklayer. He thought there's three bricklayers, one who thought

629
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: he was just laying bricks, one who thought he was

630
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: building a wall, the other one who realized that it

631
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: was going to become a church or something. Yeah, it's

632
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: kind of like what so, you know for those who

633
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: aren't familiar with because it's a hardiness, for example, the

634
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: fairly specific construct within psychology, but for most people it's

635
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: probably similar to what they call resilience or GrITT get

636
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: they're all related constructs. And this sort of sense of

637
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: meaning and purpose is what it's what can provide that

638
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: light at the end of the tunnel. So it's things

639
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: things seemed dark as this cloud over me, I just

640
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: can't see my way through well, but I can see

641
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: that glimmer that meaning and purpose is what allows me

642
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: to keep going because I know things will get better.

643
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: I know there's a bigger picture there. And yeah, I

644
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: think we all need version of that.

645
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 3: And how do you in your work, whether you're coaching

646
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: one on one or or or or mass stuff, or

647
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 3: in your.

648
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: Books or whatever.

649
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: How do you help people to here's the million dollar question,

650
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: how you help or steer people towards finding a sense

651
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 3: of meaning and purpose in life?

652
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: Any little tips and tricks.

653
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, for those who are maybe a bit more

654
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: academically minded. Michael Steiger is an American. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

655
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: it's a fantastic work in this area. It was a

656
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: lovely guy as well. But if you can look up

657
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: his work, I mean most is fairly academic. He has

658
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 2: written a bit of stuff a bit more popular, but

659
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: he writes a lot about this is again it's probably

660
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: one of the world's ladies in this area. And I

661
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: guess there's a couple of ways to do it. So

662
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 2: one one of the things we can do is look

663
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: to people we admire, you know, look to our heroes

664
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: or look to role models or that don't necessarily to

665
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: be famous. It could be your father or an uncle

666
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: or another or whoever could be. But and then ask ourselves,

667
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: you know, what is it about them we admire or

668
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: how are they living their life? And how might I

669
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: be able to We'll not copy it exactly because we

670
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: need to do it in our own way, but what

671
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: might be my version of that? Because more often than not,

672
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: if we admire someone, if we look up to them,

673
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: they've probably got some at least a bit of this

674
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: meaning and purpose that we're talking about here. So that's

675
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: one thing. A similar version to that is reading. You know,

676
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: there's lots of great self help books out there that

677
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: inspirational you refer to man Search for Meaning, et cetera.

678
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: Obviously one of the big classics, but there's lots out there,

679
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: and obviously audio books as well. Look online, try a

680
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: few and start just to get ideas, because again, there's

681
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: no one way to do it, and my answer to

682
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: this question will probably be different to yours, and then

683
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: also they'll be different again, so we do need to

684
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: find our own path, our own version to that meaning

685
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: and purpose. So we can, you know, we can look

686
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: at the research, we can look at role models. We

687
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 2: can also just engage in trial and error, just try

688
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 2: things out, try different meaningful progress projects or bigger projects

689
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: and see what works. In particularly if there are younger

690
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: listeners out there. I think one of the things we

691
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: need to recognize is that most people won't know the

692
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: answer to this in their teens or in their twenties.

693
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: But that's okay. That's fine. We shouldn't even expect it.

694
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 2: I mean, if you do, good luck to you. But

695
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 2: for many of us, you know, that's what our younger years,

696
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: I suppose should be about. Trying things out, making mistakes,

697
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: learning what works, and being I suppose, at the risk

698
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 2: of blatant self promotion, that's kind of what Lost and

699
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: Founds about. That's about accepting those wanderings and failures as

700
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: part of the process, part of the journey. We can't

701
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: ever really find our way if we don't get lost

702
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: every now and then. And then one of the other ones,

703
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the I suppose, in some ways

704
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: simplest but also most effective ways to add being in

705
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: purpose to our lives is through volunteering. Just a very

706
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: practical suggestion. This is something I've done a lot of,

707
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: particularly in recent years of the last decod or so,

708
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 2: volunteering to a cause that's meaningful to you. Again, there's

709
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: all sorts of colt So for me, a lot of

710
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: it's been around mental health and mental ill health. That's

711
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: obviously meaningful for me in all sorts of ways. But

712
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 2: it could be animals, it could be the environment. Whatever. Again,

713
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: there's no right or wrong answers, but being part of

714
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: something bigger than you, contributing to some cause that means

715
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 2: something to you is a great way to add many

716
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 2: and well there's all sorts of other benefits to volunteering

717
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: as well, and so again a relatively simple but incredibly

718
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 2: powerful way to add to add to our thriving and flourish.

719
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 3: Just on that, you just mentioned something though, that made

720
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 3: me think of a quote that I absolutely love that

721
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 3: I generally steer people too. And it's from Seneca, the

722
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 3: Stoic philosopher. And I'm trying to remember this quote computer brope,

723
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 3: so that I may get slightly off track, but he said,

724
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 3: every individual burst of responsibility to be of value to humanity,

725
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 3: if possible to benefit a large number, if not to

726
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 3: benefit a smaller group, if that too seems unattainable, then

727
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 3: to benefit their immediate community, which I.

728
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: Think is awesome.

729
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: But he finishes it by saying, however, above all, they

730
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 3: must prioritize self growth and personal well being. And I

731
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: think that the thinking on that is that if you

732
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 3: prioritize your self growth and particularly a personal well being,

733
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 3: then you're in a better state to be of value

734
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 3: to humanity, and and and as I will say to people.

735
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 3: You know, if you think about that quote, this is

736
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 3: this meaning, sense of meaning in purpose in life. It's

737
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 3: not about creating a massively successful startup and running an

738
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: orphanage in Nepal at the same time. Right, it's just

739
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: about as you said that that contributing to something that's

740
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 3: that's bigger than yourself, which often involves other people, right,

741
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 3: which then brings us back to the relationship thing.

742
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: Right, couldn't agreement? I mean, that's that's as versions of that,

743
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: but fantastic give that big thumbs up all around. And

744
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 2: it's similar to it, I guess in a very simplified

745
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: version that I've been saying for many, many years. Is it?

746
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: And it goes back to this idea between I guess

747
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: happiness first thriving, I suppose. But happiness isn't just feeling good,

748
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: it's also doing good. Yes, And that's something that's often

749
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: miss well underappreciated, I suppose, because if we do. And

750
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: it also another thing I talk a lot about, which

751
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: is really important, is that a lot of people see

752
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: a dichotomy between selfishness and selflessness, or they see self

753
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: help or self care as being selfish, but it's not

754
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: if we look at it in the context of that

755
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: fantastic quote, you guy. So for example, if I want

756
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: to do good in the world, which I do, I

757
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 2: can't do that if I'm sick and tired and miserable.

758
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 2: So if I don't take care of myself and I've

759
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 2: got no energy and no motivation, then how can I

760
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 2: do the good things? Whereas if I do take care

761
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 2: of myself, not in a selfish way, but with the

762
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: view that I'm going to look after myself so I

763
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: can look after others, that's what we need to So

764
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: when we look at it, that selfishness and selflessness kind

765
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 2: of work together.

766
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And it's the whole put your own oxygen

767
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 3: mask on first, right and and you know, so if

768
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: you do look after yourself, you're going to be a

769
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 3: much better human to be better than others. And the

770
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 3: only caveat that I put on the self care thing,

771
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: you know, my cris, I'd just say self care is

772
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 3: not sitting with your feed up with a bottle of

773
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 3: wine watching Netflix. That's that's self indugence and relaxation, which

774
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 3: is different to self care. What else are the kind

775
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 3: of significant contributors. So we've we've talked about that sense

776
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 3: of meaning and purpose. We talked about relationships as well

777
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 3: as the positive emotions.

778
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: Any other big.

779
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: Ticket items for for for people for enhancing their flourishing

780
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 3: and thriving.

781
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: Well, there's quite a few others, I suppose, but the

782
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: two other big ones that there's probably three other three

783
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: other big ones that we haven't touched a lot on

784
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 2: with We touched b but I guess just really quickly

785
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 2: and then let me know which we're no elaborator on one.

786
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: You know, we do know that setting and working towards

787
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 2: meaningful goals is really important. We also know and I

788
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 2: suspect that this will be important, is well physical health

789
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: and well being is important. So we know, for example,

790
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 2: that exercise is fantastic in many many ways, but not

791
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: just in the way people think about it. So it's

792
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: not just about building muscular strength or cutting a vascular

793
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 2: aerobic fitness, or even flexibility. Those things are really important.

794
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: They allow us to do what we want to do

795
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: to live life. But we also know that exercise, for example,

796
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: is one of the most effective antidepressants, one of the

797
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 2: best stressbusters. It helps us slip better. So you know

798
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 2: again that I mean, most people would think exercise is

799
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 2: a good thing, but I don't think many people appreciate

800
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: the real benefits, the psychological benefits that come from exercise.

801
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: So sorry, setting and work and do as many for

802
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: goals physical health and well being, including sleep, which is

803
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: often in court. And then the other one. I guess

804
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: there's a whole group of stuff that again there's slightly different,

805
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: but they're all related that I guess you could put

806
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: under the heading of mindset or ergy. These things optimism, hope, gratitude,

807
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 2: which are again undoubtedly very very important contributors.

808
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I'd like to dive into that, but

809
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 3: just before we do, and the physical health and wellbeing,

810
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 3: I mean, that's kind of my wheelhouses and neuroscientists and physiologists,

811
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 3: and I always say to people there's a brilliant quote

812
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 3: from Professor Frank Booth who over a decade ago said

813
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 3: the human genome hasn't changed in over forty five thousand years,

814
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 3: and the current human genome requires and expects us to

815
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: be highly physically active for normal functioning. And I say,

816
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 3: I always say, nowhere's that statement more true than any

817
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 3: human brain. Because most people get that exercise boost your mood,

818
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 3: and people will talk about endorphins, which are important, but

819
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 3: every time you exercise, you get increases in dopamine, in serotonin,

820
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: in nowhe adrenaline, as well as in doorphins, as well

821
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 3: as endocannabinoids. And I'd say to people there's like an orchestra.

822
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 3: There's a symphony in your brain of neurotransmitters when you're

823
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 3: being active, but it's when you're sedentary you deprive your

824
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 3: brain of those neurotransmitters that it needs to function normally.

825
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 3: And I think that's a really important part that people

826
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 3: don't get is.

827
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: That, yes, they get that exercise boos.

828
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 3: Your mood, but if you're not highly active, you actually

829
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 3: deprive your brain of those chemicals that it needs to

830
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 3: function normally. And then you get BDNTH and all sorts

831
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 3: of growth factors that are released in the brain when

832
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 3: we exercise as well.

833
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, well it's totally fully agreat totally great. But

834
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 2: I would actually add to that that, in addition to

835
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 2: all those biological physiological what if you want to call

836
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: them in factors, there's also again, when we exercise, we

837
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: tend to get a sense of satisfaction. Yes, I've achieved there,

838
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: or I've lifted a heavy weight, and not always but

839
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: more often than not. A lot of the time, we're

840
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 2: also often interacting with other people if you're in the gym,

841
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 2: if you're in a group, or if you're you're exercise buddy.

842
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: I mean I do exercise quite a bit on my own,

843
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: but a lot of the time people are exercising with

844
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: other people, so you also get that connection. So on

845
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: top of all those and again I totally agree with you,

846
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: but there's a biological physiological benefits are very real. There

847
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: are psychological and social factors that are you know that

848
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: shouldn't be under a say and you know, we do

849
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 2: know that actually exercising with others provides benefit. And then

850
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 2: the other part actually, which if you want to add

851
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 2: another layer to it, is if you exercise outdoors. Yes,

852
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: in some researcher says the even more benefits to get

853
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: that fresh air, sunlight, et cetera, et cetera.

854
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 3: So we need a new word because because as you

855
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 3: were talking, I'm going biocycle social, but we need to

856
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 3: add in environmental, right, bios by psychle social environmental benefits

857
00:43:53,640 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 3: of exercise, which is that might be for the longer word, right, yeah,

858
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 3: let's do it. But I do want to come back

859
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 3: and talk about those last two things. I'm aware of

860
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 3: your time, but I did actually wanted to ask your

861
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 3: opinion on something professional opinion. You mentioned achievement, right, there's

862
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 3: lots of talk about self esteem, and you know, we

863
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: know the Limitations of the Whole Booster is a movement

864
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: that came out of the United States. How important is

865
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 3: achievement and accomplishment in your view in a building people's

866
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 3: self worth and self esteem? But then be how that

867
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 3: plays into flourishing.

868
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: Well, it's very important for a number of reasons, I think.

869
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: So let me I'll just go back a step. And

870
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: so this has often talked about in the context, and

871
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: I think you might have mentioned this a bit earlier.

872
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: You know, isn't the journey or the destination? That's kind

873
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: of that philosophical you know, which is an interesting question,

874
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: I suppose, and again one that I talked about in

875
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 2: my book quite a for obvious reasons. But a lot

876
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: of people will say, you know, you've got to enjoy

877
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: the journey, it's not about the destination. But I don't

878
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 2: entirely agree with that. I think they're both important. Destinations

879
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: are important if you've trained really hard and you've run

880
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: that mouth on when you cross that line, and I'm

881
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 2: saying this sort of literally and metaphorically, it feels bloody great.

882
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: And when I finish my PhD, I'm sure when when

883
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: you finish your VHD, when I finish the Yes, it

884
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 2: does feel and it should feel good. There's nothing wrong

885
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 2: with feeling good. However, I guess this, and this is

886
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 2: where you know, the other argument comes in. If that's

887
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: the only satisfaction you get, then you could be waiting

888
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 2: a long time. Yeah, you know, and and and you're

889
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 2: missing out on a lot in between. So again, so

890
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: my answer to that is, it really is both. There's

891
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with destinations. But if we can enjoy the

892
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 2: journey in all of its messiness sometimes and ugliness along

893
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: the way, then that's even better. So we get, you know,

894
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: we get the best of both worlds, I suppose. But

895
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: coming back to your question, I would argue more so,

896
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: I've really tried to avoid I think that the concept

897
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 2: of self esteem, as you've hinted, that is a very

898
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 2: complex and problematic one, and I've tended to I guess

899
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 2: I focus a bit more and have done for quiet.

900
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 2: Now now on some related but slightly different concepts. One

901
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: is something we call self efficacy, which I'm sure you're

902
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: familiar with it. Yes, So that's I guess it's it's

903
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: like a sense of control at the risk of oversimplifying,

904
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: and that's really important. If we feel we've got to

905
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: sense a bit of control over ourselves, over our lives,

906
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 2: over our outcomes, you know that we can influence and

907
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 2: make our world better. That's really important. It's not just

908
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 2: about feeling good for the sake of feeling good. It's

909
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: about having this again, so it relates to lockers of control.

910
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: This, yeah, but can you can you talk about that? Tim? Sorry?

911
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: Sorry, just you finish what you're saying. And then just

912
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 3: distinguished for our guess about internal versus external lookers of control,

913
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 3: because I actually think that's really really important.

914
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: So I would argue, so self efficacy and lockers of control,

915
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: I would say, much more important self esteem. And then

916
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 2: the other part, which again I focus a lot more

917
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 2: on recent is is self compassion, which is again slightly

918
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: very different, but I would say much better construct to

919
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: and towards lockers of control. For the Again, these things

920
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 2: overlap a bit, but that it's an idea again that

921
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: we have some control or we that we focus on

922
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: those things. Let me start that again. There are many

923
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: many things in the world over which we have no control.

924
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: That's just life.

925
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 2: You know. I can't control all the things that I

926
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 2: would like to control or that are you know, I

927
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: can't change everything that I would like to change in

928
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 2: the world. If I try to change those things that

929
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 2: are beyond my control, I'm just going to feel frustrated, disappointed, angry, whatever,

930
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 2: which doesn't really help anyone. So what we know about

931
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: the happiest people, those people the most satisfied in effects

932
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: that they tend to focus more on those things that

933
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 2: are within their lockers of control or some people say

934
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: circle of influence. There's related constructs here, and they're more

935
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: accepting of those other things. So it's part of this

936
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 2: is actually acceptance of imperfection, except that the world isn't

937
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: always and won't always be the way we like it.

938
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 2: So it's so internal lock control is focusing on what

939
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 2: things that I can do to make the world or

940
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: make my world better place in various ways, and it

941
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 2: relates to the more we do that, the more we

942
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: have a significant influence in those areas anyway, then that

943
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: also sort of builds up self efficacy, so they kind

944
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,280
Speaker 2: of relate to each other in a way. But throughout

945
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: all of that, no matter what we you know, what

946
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 2: constructs we refer to, or how we talk about those things,

947
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,959
Speaker 2: We're not going to get it right all the time.

948
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 2: I'm not going to better control everything or changing everything

949
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 2: all the time. And again that's where this idea of

950
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: acceptance is really important, or the construct of self compassion.

951
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 2: So increasingly this is something I found to be more

952
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: and more important in my personal life and in my

953
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: work I do, which is the idea that no matter

954
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 2: how good you are, no matter how hard you work,

955
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: no matter what you do, you well fail at times. Why,

956
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: because you're a human, and because we're imperfect, because we're available,

957
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 2: will all fuck up, We will all step off and

958
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 2: get things wrong. Now, what's important, though, is not whether

959
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 2: you fail or not, but how you then respond to yourself.

960
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: And so I've been guilty in the past of being

961
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: very critical of my and a lot of us are

962
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 2: highly critical. Why did I get that wrong? Why didn't

963
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: I get it right? Why did I stuff that up?

964
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: I should have known better, I should have done better,

965
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. People that do that tend to

966
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 2: be unhappier. It's really that quite simple, whereas people who

967
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: are able to show. And it's also something we would

968
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 2: never say those sorts of things to other people. You know,

969
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 2: I'm far more critical of myself than I'd ever been

970
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: my wife, to my kids, to my friends. I say

971
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 2: things to myself I would never say to anyone else,

972
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: and it doesn't help. In fact, it's distinctly unhelpful. So

973
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 2: self compassion is about recognizing that. It's about recognizing that

974
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: we're imperfect, accepting that, but treating ourselves with the same kindness,

975
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 2: being gentle with ourselves in the same way we probably

976
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: would be with a loved one, with a best friend,

977
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: with a colleague. You know, even in the workplace, we're

978
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: often much nicer to other people than we add to ourself.

979
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 2: So even if we focus on the self advocacy and

980
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 2: the self control lockers of control, it's again the idea

981
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 2: is we won't get it right all the time. But

982
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: that's okay, no one does. Yeah, I mean who out

983
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 2: there gets everything right all the time?

984
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely?

985
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 3: A couple of things that I'd just like to comment

986
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 3: and just to reinforce what you just said, I'm a

987
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 3: big fan of the Stoic.

988
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: Philosophers and empties.

989
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 3: The very first line of the entredy on is of

990
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 3: things some are up to us and others are not.

991
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 3: And the Stoics talk about these two zones, that the

992
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: stuff that's within your control and the stuff that's not.

993
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 3: And the key is to focus on that which you

994
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 3: can control and refuse to invest your energy and the

995
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 3: stuff you can control. So that's exactly what you said,

996
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: but in different terms.

997
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: But there's this other.

998
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 3: There's a beautiful world from Japanese psychology called arugamama, which

999
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 3: means with things as they are, what needs to be done.

1000
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: So it's an acceptance, but it's not a passive acceptance.

1001
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 3: It's one that then leads into action. And I think

1002
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: you kind of talked about that, you know, it's like

1003
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 3: it's not what happens about how we respond that really

1004
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 3: is the key thing. So yeah, I just wanted to

1005
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 3: throw that in there to kind of back up what

1006
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 3: you just said. But just Kiven, we've only got a

1007
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 3: few minutes left. Can you talk a little bit about optimism, hope.

1008
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 1: And gratitude. I just read a research.

1009
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 3: I'm a massive fan of gratitude since I thirty years

1010
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 3: ago when I met somebody in India who had elephant

1011
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 3: titus and leprosy, and every single day since then, I've

1012
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 3: done a gratitude richal but I know that it is connected.

1013
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 3: Gratitude is connected to hope and to optimism. So just

1014
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 3: quickly go over those three concepts and why they're important,

1015
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 3: and any big takeouts for people.

1016
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to do in a couple of minutes

1017
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: because there's a lot to say there, but in short,

1018
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 2: if I had to, So, my background in clinical psychology

1019
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 2: was most most of my training was in what's called

1020
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 2: cognitive behavior therapy or compuent theraptist, and many people would

1021
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: have heard of that because it's been I guess it's

1022
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: been the most dominant form of therapy for the last

1023
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: all of my lifetime as well, So you fifty sixty,

1024
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: seventy years whatever, It's evolved slightly so now it now

1025
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: includes acceptance, commitment therapy and markets. But anyway, the core,

1026
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 2: the heart and soul of all of those contemporary approaches

1027
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 2: is essentially that the way we think about things is important.

1028
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 2: So what happens to us is important, but the way

1029
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 2: we think about what happens is more important. And that's

1030
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 2: you know, what sometimes called mindset or attitude. Our beliefs

1031
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 2: are expectations. In short, we can think about things in

1032
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: different ways. Some ways more of what we might call pessimistic,

1033
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 2: where we see the worst than everything we see everything

1034
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 2: is wrong. Other ways might be more we call optimistic,

1035
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: which is looking for the good and looking for hope.

1036
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 2: And that's why again, these things, hope and optimism and

1037
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 2: gratitude are all kind of related concept. It's not most

1038
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 2: of us aren't sort of black and white about it.

1039
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 2: So all of us will sort of do all of that.

1040
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,399
Speaker 2: Sometimes we'll have days when we feel a bit down

1041
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 2: and we'll see things a bit more pessimistically, and other

1042
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 2: days when we're more able to see hope and optimism. However,

1043
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 2: some people will tend more to the extremes and others.

1044
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 2: And there's no doubt that those people who are more optimistic,

1045
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 2: more grateful, more hopeful, are happier and more successful in life.

1046
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 2: Now the really important thing, So there's two most If

1047
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 2: I go back to my studies, I guess the two

1048
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,479
Speaker 2: most important things I learned in this area is one,

1049
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 2: the way we think about things is important, as I've

1050
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 2: just said, But two and this is really important. We

1051
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: can change the way we think about which is super

1052
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 2: super important because some of us might be born with

1053
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 2: the predisposition to like a tendency to go a certain way,

1054
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 2: so you might be more some of us might tend

1055
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 2: more towards pessimism. But it doesn't mean that's how you

1056
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 2: have to think, I have to be for the rest

1057
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 2: of your life. Because we can change the way we

1058
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 2: think about things with practice. I guess, you know, like

1059
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 2: the metaphy sometimes easy. You know, you can go to

1060
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 2: the gym and exercise and build up your biceps or

1061
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 2: build up your cords or whatever. If you exercise that

1062
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 2: muscle enough. Well, if we exercise our optimism muscle or

1063
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 2: our gratitude muscle, we can literally build it up. We

1064
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 2: can become stronger metaphorically in that area. And that's what

1065
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 2: a gratitude practice does. For example, like you, I do

1066
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: that every day. I actually just write a blog about

1067
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 2: that this morning. There are simple ways we can practice gratitude.

1068
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 2: You know, the three good things, exercise, what what's going well? Exercised,

1069
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 2: but writing down, just setting aside, and you only need

1070
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: a couple of minutes. I mean I only been probably three,

1071
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: four or five minutes to day, I don't how in

1072
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 2: your state, but doesn't take a lot of time. It

1073
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 2: doesn't have to take a lot of time. But writing

1074
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 2: down what's going well, directing your attention to the good

1075
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,320
Speaker 2: things in your life and any more and more generally

1076
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 2: is undoubtedly helpful. And the more you do it, the

1077
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 2: better you get.

1078
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 3: I suppose your one thing, because I've been such a

1079
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 3: big fan of gratitude and have been doubling down on it.

1080
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 3: And my my wife, she she did, she'd a blog

1081
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 3: about awe and I actually thought I started to combine

1082
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 3: the two of them right, and and just would have

1083
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 3: little moments where sometimes I'd just turn the tap on

1084
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 3: and then step back and go, how cool is that ship?

1085
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 3: Like running water? How awesome is running one? And then

1086
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 3: just think about all the things that need to happen, right,

1087
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 3: And sometimes I'll turn the light on and go Jesus electricity, like.

1088
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: How amazing is that?

1089
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 3: And even on the week on the weekend i'd started yesterday,

1090
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 3: I was weeding and rather than just waiting, I started

1091
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 3: like really thinking about weeds, and I freaking resilient and

1092
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 3: awesomely are because they keep coming back. But I actually think,

1093
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 3: if you start to look for awe in the world

1094
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 3: and then combine it with gratitude. I actually think it's

1095
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 3: a real accelerated it's just a little an equals one experiment,

1096
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 3: but I'm actually finding it really quite fascinating.

1097
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: Gravely, I'd love to said that actually, and again I

1098
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 2: hope I'm not, you know, plugging it too much. But

1099
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 2: I wrote quite a bit this in my book actually

1100
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: because I thinks, all it's a psychological construct that's kind

1101
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 2: of been overlooked. There's some fascinating research into it, and

1102
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 2: fascinating research is showing how beneficial it is, but it

1103
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to have gained the attention that gratitude not.

1104
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 2: I mean again, they're all related, yes, but it hasn't

1105
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 2: got quite the attention the public that gratitude and optimism

1106
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 2: and hope of doing or as you quite rightly said,

1107
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: is inspiring and it's something that we can look for

1108
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 2: and can find in our daily lives. For me and

1109
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 2: you kind of ender this it often comes from nature,

1110
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: so historically it was often seen, it was often part

1111
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 2: of many of the major religions, you know, so all

1112
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 2: sort of part of spirituality, and it can still be

1113
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 2: for many many people but for those of us, for

1114
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 2: people who don't necessarily have a strong religious bent, nature

1115
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 2: is another area where or in trees and mountains and lakes,

1116
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 2: beaches or whatever are great opportunities for ll and for

1117
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 2: the positive emotion that's center positivemtion that comes from that.

1118
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, it does relective gratitude of you said, and

1119
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: linking those two together, it's fantastic idea.

1120
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, very cool. This has been bloody awesome so for people.

1121
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 3: So your new book is called Lost and Fined by

1122
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:41,919
Speaker 3: doctor Tim Sharp, and you also have the Happiness Institute.

1123
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 3: What other resources because I know you've got some courses

1124
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 3: on Happiness Institute that people can take, But what's the

1125
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 3: where can people go?

1126
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: Blog? Website, books? Because I'm sure people will want to

1127
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: know more from this conversation.

1128
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for giving the opportunity. Probably the simplest one

1129
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 2: is to go to my website, which is doctor Heppy

1130
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 2: dot com dot you, so d R H A P

1131
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 2: b Y dot com dot you and from there you

1132
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 2: can get well it's links to my books. I've got

1133
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of audiobooks as well. If anyone's into audible,

1134
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: there's ten or eleven audiobooks now, but also that will

1135
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 2: take you to if social media, so on Facebook and Instagram,

1136
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: it's the Happiness Institute doctor Heppy on Twitter x as

1137
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: anyone that didn't get a touch for the website. And

1138
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 2: also there's a blog there, a weekly news there, all

1139
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 2: sorts of stuff for different people depending on how you

1140
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 2: want to consume your news as well.

1141
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 3: Cool and importantly as well, I would imagine you're still

1142
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 3: doing corporate talks because there's there's lots of corporates who

1143
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 3: listen to this podcast because they've they've heard me speak.

1144
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 3: So if they if they want to book you to

1145
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 3: come in and talk about a deeper level of enduring happiness,

1146
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 3: presumably they can get in touch through your website as well.

1147
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, to be honest, that's most of what I

1148
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 2: do now. Well, speaking and writing is most of what

1149
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 2: I do. So yep, get to host to the website

1150
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: for sure. Thanks for the opportunity to give it a plug.

1151
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: Awesome, not a problem.

1152
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 3: And I'm sure Tim that you were very happy when

1153
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 3: you managed to get the u ur l doctor Happy

1154
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 3: dot com.

1155
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: That are you? That's a cracker.

1156
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: Gosh it, I haven't thought about it for a long time,

1157
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 2: and I've heard it for probably twenty years and said now, so, yeah,

1158
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 2: I guess I guess it was a bit luck. Yeah,

1159
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 2: I hadn't really thought about that for a long time.

1160
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 2: It's a good point. I'll be grateful that I did.

1161
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, excellent. Okay, it's been awesome.

1162
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, thanks for having me. Good luck

1163
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 2: with ak.