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Speaker 1: Kday, Thanks for listening to the show. I have a

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Speaker 1: question for you, how would dying change the way that

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Speaker 1: you live? Okay smarty Pantsler, Yeah, there is a very

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Speaker 1: obvious answer to that question. But in this case, I'm

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Speaker 1: not talking about the kind of death that you don't

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Speaker 1: come back from. I'm talking about the kind that you

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Speaker 1: do what is commonly referred to as a near death experience.

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Speaker 1: You're about to hear from someone who has encountered many,

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Speaker 1: many people who have had a near death experience, and

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Speaker 1: he has captured exactly what those experiences were like for them,

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Speaker 1: how they change the people who have had them, and

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Speaker 1: what we might be able to learn from all of

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Speaker 1: it so we can make our lives more meaningful. Right now,

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Speaker 1: it's a fascinating conversation and we're going to get to

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Speaker 1: it right after these ADSDA thanks for listening to the show.

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Speaker 1: This is better than yesterday, making it better everyone week

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Speaker 1: since twenty thirteen. My Nam Josha Ginsberg, I'm grateful that

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Speaker 1: you're here. Thanks for being a part of it. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for getting around the Story Club shows. The next one

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Speaker 1: is on the ninth of March. Nikia Luis Josh Stepps,

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Speaker 1: Debos World Richard Glove and myself and Zoe Notton Lodge.

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Speaker 1: Tickets are in the show notes. Get on board that

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Speaker 1: and also the substack is there. It's going to be

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Speaker 1: a fun show. The last one was an absolute cracker

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Speaker 1: and would love to see you that. It's on the

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Speaker 1: ninth of March. Today, we've got a guest in who

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Speaker 1: I just loved speaking to. Doctor Matt Morgan is my

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Speaker 1: guest today. He's been practicing medicine for over twenty years,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of that has been in the ICU,

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Speaker 1: the intensive care unit, dealing with the most critically ill

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Speaker 1: people possible, people who, as he puts it, are often

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Speaker 1: in the fog between life and death. And even people

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Speaker 1: who go into cardiac arrest go right to the very

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Speaker 1: edge of that fog. However, do come back and are

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Speaker 1: able to talk about it. And it is those people

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Speaker 1: that are the subject of Matt's most recent book, A

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Speaker 1: Second Act, the subtitle which is quite good. A second Act.

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Speaker 1: What Nearly Dying teaches us about really living, And that's

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Speaker 1: what you hear us talk about today, including the reasoning

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Speaker 1: he has around what a near death experience really is

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Speaker 1: the biggest lessons he's learned and applied to his own

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Speaker 1: life based on what the people in his book have

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Speaker 1: told him. His very practical system for having hard conversations,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the most valuable things I think

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Speaker 1: I've learned doing this podcast, and the humanity that is

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Speaker 1: the heart of caring others. Dr Matt Morgan is a

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Speaker 1: very thoughtful, very kind human being and as you're about

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Speaker 1: to he's got a delightful Welsh accent, which is really nice.

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy this conversation with doctor Matt Morgan. Matt,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much for being with us today.

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Speaker 1: Where in the world do we find you?

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Speaker 2: So, I'm in what we call the original South Wales,

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Speaker 2: not this huge South Wales place in all South Wales

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Speaker 2: in the UK. I'm in a little village about nine

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Speaker 2: miles away from Cardiff called Sully, or in Welsh it's

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Speaker 2: called Silly.

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Speaker 1: I'm grateful we can talk today. On this show. I

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about death and because I think it's

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Speaker 1: really important that we don't forget the other part that

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Speaker 1: is waiting for every single person any of us have

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Speaker 1: ever loved or whoever lived, our pets, everything, our fish,

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Speaker 1: our plants, everything, and we can't no matter what we

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Speaker 1: do or how we try, we can't get out of it.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's I think it's really important because

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Speaker 1: it's not in a grim way. It actually it makes I,

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Speaker 1: you know, I feel better about the day I'm going

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Speaker 1: to have when I think about that on a regular basis.

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Speaker 1: You're a doctor. Both my parents were doctors. We're going

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Speaker 1: to feel so I'm very familiar with this. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember the first time where I don't know, when you're

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Speaker 1: register perhaps or something, when you saw someone pass away

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Speaker 1: in front of you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess even more than that. The first person

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Speaker 2: who died I was with before he died. He was

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Speaker 2: a chap who had alcoholic cirrhosis. Actually, and he knew this.

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Speaker 2: He was very well primed with what comes next.

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Speaker 1: So let's his liver. Essentially, his liver is gone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, spot on. He had liver failure. And everything had

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Speaker 2: been tried, we'd gone round that loop, and he knew that.

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Speaker 2: And I remember the last few words he said to

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Speaker 2: me is all he wanted was something to wear his lips,

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Speaker 2: a drink, a drink of water, not a drink of alcohol.

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Speaker 2: And he asked that, and of course he hadn't been

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Speaker 2: able to have a drink of anything for a while

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Speaker 2: because he had some problems and some stomach problems. But

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Speaker 2: now we were reaching end of life care. I guess then,

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Speaker 2: you know what you do is what people want, what's

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Speaker 2: right for them. So I give him a drink of water.

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Speaker 2: I was a junior doctor, a resident doctor, and he

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Speaker 2: drank this drink of water. He said, it's like coins

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Speaker 2: falling from heaven. That was the phrase he used. I

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Speaker 2: still remember it. And he literally died a few minutes later. Actually,

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Speaker 2: And you know, this book we're talking about today, it's

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Speaker 2: not about death. It's about life. But as you say,

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Speaker 2: just like if you're looking at where the light comes from,

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Speaker 2: you need to look at the shade to work it out.

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Speaker 2: You know, Steve Job said death is life's greatest invention.

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Speaker 2: A turn of life would be no life at all.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's true. So it's not a grim

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Speaker 2: it's not a depressing book. It's a book about life,

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Speaker 2: not about death. But in order to do that, and

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Speaker 2: to know that, you have to look at that shade

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Speaker 2: as well as the light.

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Speaker 1: I think Steve also said, no thanks that I want

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Speaker 1: your fancy cancer medication. I'll just drink this smoothie. And

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Speaker 1: then a couple of months later went, actually, is that

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Speaker 1: still an offer?

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Speaker 2: Definitely a selective quote. You know, you can find goodly

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Speaker 2: bad quotes from most people, so I chose the former

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Speaker 2: other than the latter.

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Speaker 1: But it is because I remember watching my own mother pass,

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Speaker 1: who was a woman that told me she was an

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Speaker 1: anisis for many years and then retrained as a GP.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't see too much of it later on,

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Speaker 1: but I remember asking, so, what's it like when people die?

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Speaker 1: And Mum said, it's like she said, it's like the

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Speaker 1: the life goes out of them and now it's just

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Speaker 1: a thing. It's just a thing. The person is no

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Speaker 1: longer there. It's just a thing now. And I was

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Speaker 1: pretty but too young to kind of understand that. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't I mean, when I saw her die, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't spooky, it wasn't weird. There was no ghost arising

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Speaker 1: from within her. It wasn't like that scene from the Ghostbusters.

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Speaker 1: She just took that breath and we all went, I

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Speaker 1: think that was it. And then it was actually quite lovely,

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Speaker 1: and then we hung out and here's the wild thing man,

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Speaker 1: And I know you spoke. We're speaking about people who

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Speaker 1: have had any death experience. Muma also had one of them.

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Speaker 1: But this fascinated me around the because I'd read the

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Speaker 1: out the Tibetan Book of the Dead and how people

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Speaker 1: just hang with the corpse for quite a while. We

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Speaker 1: all hang in the room with her for hours and

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Speaker 1: there was a moment when oh, now she's gone. M

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Speaker 1: it was and we all kind of it was weird. Man.

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Speaker 2: What was your mum's name was?

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Speaker 1: She went by Ruth. Ruth it was, but Lithuanians in

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Speaker 1: Australia people can't pronounce names.

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Speaker 2: Ruth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know. The reason I say that is it said

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Speaker 2: you die twice. You die once when your body dies,

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Speaker 2: and the next one somebody stops saying your name. And

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Speaker 2: I think, not only are we not only do it

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Speaker 2: avoid that death bit as I said, you know, having

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Speaker 2: people in the home that used to be how death was,

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Speaker 2: death was where the home was, that used to be

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Speaker 2: a thing. But not only that, we now also avoid

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Speaker 2: talking about the dead. And you know often people will

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Speaker 2: come up to you and say, oh my mom, my

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Speaker 2: dad died mom, And people avoid the top, they crossed

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Speaker 2: the way passed away. Yeah. So I now, since since

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Speaker 2: talking to some of the people in this book Who's

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Speaker 2: whose relatives have died? I do the opposite. I move in,

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Speaker 2: I say what was your dad's name? What did they love?

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Speaker 2: What are they like doing in life? So yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think about that. You die twice onston your body dies

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Speaker 2: next when people stop saying your name. So yeah, thank

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Speaker 2: you for telling this about Ruth.

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Speaker 1: No worries. But I remember I remember, like right, because

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Speaker 1: I as a doctor. When she was first off a chemo,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't like what for I know what that means?

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Speaker 1: I think, but she eventually had, you know a bit.

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Speaker 1: But when it came to the they said, okay, when

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Speaker 1: the remission went away and you know, things came back,

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Speaker 1: She's like, look, she had this had this near death

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Speaker 1: experience post war. She was a refugee and you know,

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Speaker 1: she was living in a in a refugee camp in Germany.

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Speaker 1: They'd walked down from Lithuania and something had happened, and

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Speaker 1: she said, I came, I'm back. I remember it, and

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Speaker 1: I remember it wasn't frightening, and so I'm okay with it.

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Speaker 1: And that blew my mind that she was able to

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Speaker 1: face this thing with such grace. And so when you

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Speaker 1: spoke to these people, what made you because this is now,

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Speaker 1: we're getting into a hocus poker space. As a doctor,

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Speaker 1: you've already written a couple of books. People are believing you.

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Speaker 1: They're waiting in the hocus poker space of like I

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Speaker 1: saw everything, and you know, all my friends came back,

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Speaker 1: and you know, then all of a sudden, I'm back

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Speaker 1: in the room and everything hurts. Like what made you

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Speaker 1: want to start exploring this?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've been a doctor now for twenty years and

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Speaker 2: all of my work is in people at that weird

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Speaker 2: fog between life and death. I look after critically ill

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Speaker 2: people in the intensive care unit. You know, everybody there

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Speaker 2: is unwell. That that's where I feel comfortable and at home.

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Speaker 2: And I've long thought that when these people survive, you know,

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Speaker 2: I've met hundreds of people who've died so to speak,

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Speaker 2: They've had a cligorrest and have been resuscitated through through

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Speaker 2: CPR and other means, and I've long thought they other

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Speaker 2: people should be listening to, Not the tech gurus, not

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Speaker 2: the business gus, not the millionaire tech bros. These people

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Speaker 2: know what's important in life. And so I've been scribbling

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Speaker 2: down for years in a little notepad. I've got it here,

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Speaker 2: so Harry Potter read notepad that my daughter is my

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Speaker 2: daughter's I stole it on the way to work because

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Speaker 2: I'd run out of paper and i'd written down stuff.

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Speaker 2: When I meet people after they survived that they might

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Speaker 2: have said in parsing. The first thing I wrote down

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Speaker 2: most important things in life, not things scribbled in awful handwriting.

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Speaker 1: You're a doctor. I think that's like your top of

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Speaker 1: the school. Excellent. Can you write something for me? Oh

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Speaker 1: that's a little too nate. Have you thought about physics? Noble? Hey,

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Speaker 1: let me you discover some pharmacy? Can you read that? Great?

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Speaker 2: You know? The second thing is you're not your worst

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Speaker 2: mistake and pressure. We'll talk about that later. The last

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Speaker 2: thing I wrote down is fuck it.

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Speaker 1: Not every person who's had a cardiac arrest is going

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Speaker 1: to come back with wisdom. There's a person in my

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Speaker 1: own life that I witnessed having no less than three

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Speaker 1: stents put in over the course of four years. This

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Speaker 1: person's dead now because they just never took the lape

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Speaker 1: of the way I've been living isn't going to get

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Speaker 1: me there? What's the difference between that you noticed between

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Speaker 1: people who have that epiphany, the kind of people that

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Speaker 1: you put in the book, and those who don't and

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Speaker 1: the people you see again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not all milk and honey, and even the

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Speaker 2: people in the book, they didn't all you know, wake

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Speaker 2: up and suddenly have an amazing in life and have

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Speaker 2: these insights. So a lot of people struggle with survivor

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Speaker 2: guilt for example PTSD or symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder, flashbacks,

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Speaker 2: intrusive memories. So definitely not all milk and honey. You know,

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Speaker 2: the people in the book kind of selected because their

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Speaker 2: stories are incredible or I've cared for them, and they

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Speaker 2: don't all change everything, but they can change important things,

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Speaker 2: you know, the stuff that makes us us. It's been said,

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Speaker 2: you know, I said, we both die twice. Well we

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Speaker 2: both live twice. We both have two lives, and the

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Speaker 2: second begins when you realize you just have one. So

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Speaker 2: I think if you come to that realization, then you

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Speaker 2: know life two point zero starts, your second life starts.

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Speaker 2: And maybe some have come to that before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I can't remember the name of the author, but

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Speaker 1: the four Thousand Weeks.

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Speaker 2: Guy Oliver Berkman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing, the incredible staric philosopher, absolutely brilliant. My mate

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Speaker 1: has his calendar on the wall and he's you know,

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Speaker 1: started at his birthday and then crossed it out and

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Speaker 1: you look at it and you're like, oh wow, you're

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Speaker 1: in the third phase of that and there's not a

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Speaker 1: lot left. And you know, we really don't want to

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Speaker 1: know how many days we've got left. But there's this

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Speaker 1: real false idea that it's going to be at the time,

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Speaker 1: place and method of their choosing, isn't it. And as

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Speaker 1: an icee, you like very aware that's not the case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, every day I go to work, I

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Speaker 2: meet people and give them the worst newsday life. That's

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Speaker 2: kind of a normal day at the office. And it

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Speaker 2: always happens as you say, it's a boring Tuesday. You know,

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Speaker 2: everything's fine, and then then it's not. You know, life

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Speaker 2: is an emergency, and we forget that. We get struggled

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Speaker 2: and covered in the treacle of the mundane. And I'm

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Speaker 2: lucky when I go to work. I'm the kind of

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Speaker 2: person that when I meet these people who are super ill,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't make me sad or depressed. You know, sometimes

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Speaker 2: it is sad, but it makes me appreciate life. It

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Speaker 2: makes me think of the flat tire that I've got

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Speaker 2: at the minute, you know, it's just flat tire. But

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Speaker 2: I get I get pulled into that that stoical you know,

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Speaker 2: negative visualization kind of loop. I get that for free.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I get paid to have that in work.

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Speaker 2: But not all of us see that. So I hope

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Speaker 2: this book and talking about these things gives people a

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Speaker 2: little slice of what's important. You know, life is an emergency,

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Speaker 2: you're right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're an ICU doctor. You meet people on

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Speaker 1: the absolute worst day of their lives, either because they

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Speaker 1: are very in a lot of trouble or someone they

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Speaker 1: dearly love is in a lot of trouble. What what

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Speaker 1: can we what? What would you say that is handy

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Speaker 1: other people to know about delivering really terrible news to somebody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a It's a massive part of our job.

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Speaker 2: We you know, we often think about saving a life

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Speaker 2: in ICU, but actually you can also save a death

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Speaker 2: and through talking breaking bad news, that's that's how you

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Speaker 2: do it. You know, people say, is there an after life? Yes,

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Speaker 2: there's definitely an afterlife, but it's for the people left behind,

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Speaker 2: and the things you do in those moments can affect

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Speaker 2: them for you know, decades, for the rest of their life. Actually,

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Speaker 2: so I'm pretty passionate about how you should do that,

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Speaker 2: and you should train for it. Is the first thing

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Speaker 2: to say, don't think about it when you need to

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Speaker 2: do it. You should think about it when the seas

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Speaker 2: are calm, not when the seas are storm me. So

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Speaker 2: I do. I've got a routine, if you like. I

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Speaker 2: do similar thing every time. I put a sticker on

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Speaker 2: my left hand, which is a sticker with the patient's name,

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Speaker 2: the nurse's name that I go with other important people.

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Speaker 2: Because the last thing you want to do is to

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Speaker 2: mispronounce the name. Forget a name. It's little things like

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Speaker 2: that which are a big deal. Actually, I remember I

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Speaker 2: went to a funeral and somebody mispronounced the name of

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Speaker 2: the person. And the funeral is amazing. Everything else is perfect,

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Speaker 2: but that seemed to taint it all, you know, because

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Speaker 2: that's us. So that's the first thing I do. You

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Speaker 2: check the space you go into before you go there.

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Speaker 2: Make sure there's no there's not rubbish everywhere, there's not

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Speaker 2: chairs fallen over, silly things like that. Know the story

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Speaker 2: before you go in there, so have your have your details,

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Speaker 2: introduce yourself. And that sounds silly, but I've called grandmothers, mothers, mothers,

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Speaker 2: grandmothers are all sorts of things, so don't make assumptions.

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Speaker 2: You know, say my name is Matt, and one of

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Speaker 2: the intensive care doctors, I haven't met you before. Tell

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Speaker 2: me all about yourselves, and they'll say I'm his dad.

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Speaker 2: For example, fire a warning shot. Always fire a warning shot.

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Speaker 2: I say, look, this is going to be a tough talk.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be super honest, but the things I'm

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Speaker 2: going to say are going to be sad or upsetting.

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Speaker 2: But I want to be honest about things. So you

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Speaker 2: fired that warning shot, and then you tell a story.

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Speaker 2: And there's different ways of telling the story, but be

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Speaker 2: honest about it. Admit uncertainty. You know, often say if

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Speaker 2: I love you are the most important words in life,

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Speaker 2: then in medicine it's probably I don't know are the

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Speaker 2: most important words. So you know, when you don't know

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Speaker 2: the answer to things, be honest because that brings hope.

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Speaker 2: To say the D word. We used to say, people

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Speaker 2: avoid the C word of care. Now you know, people

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Speaker 2: are running races and talking about cancer a lot, but

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Speaker 2: we don't talk about death. So you know, I'll always

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Speaker 2: say phrases like I'm sorry your dad is sick enough

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Speaker 2: to die, you know, don't beat around the bush, don't

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Speaker 2: say they've gone to a better place, because they'll say, oh,

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Speaker 2: where's that? Is it the hospital down the road? Ask

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Speaker 2: if they've got questions. Ask at least three times, because

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Speaker 2: people will always say no, and then they'll ask a question.

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Speaker 2: I lay guilt. There's always guilt, especially with cardiac arrests,

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Speaker 2: because often the person that you're looking at is being

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Speaker 2: the one who's done that CPR. So I say, look,

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Speaker 2: you've done everything right. You've done an amazing job. If

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Speaker 2: it wasn't if you didn't do what you do, we

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be here at all today. So you know, that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: And then I do one last thing, which is I

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Speaker 2: always find scary when I do this, and I've done

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Speaker 2: this hundreds of times. I always think there's going to

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Speaker 2: be a bad reaction, but there's never a bad reaction.

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Speaker 2: It's called the empty chair technique in philosophy, in psychology.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know this. I'd been doing it for years

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Speaker 2: and someone said, oh, that's the empty chair technique. And

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Speaker 2: so you've got to the end of the story. You've

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Speaker 2: said someone's very sick, and I'll say, look, if your

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Speaker 2: dad was sitting here now with us, and I'll point

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Speaker 2: to an empty chair and they heard all the things

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Speaker 2: we were talking, how ill they were, what would they say?

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Speaker 2: And what that does is it gives families the permission

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Speaker 2: to say things they wouldn't say themselves. You know, if

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Speaker 2: you're a wife, you'd never say, oh, you know, just

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Speaker 2: let him go, you know, don't You wouldn't want all

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Speaker 2: these machines, Just let him go. But if you're talking

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Speaker 2: through that person, people are honest. They often joke. They say, oh,

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Speaker 2: he'd say, you know, just leave me tack and fine

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Speaker 2: and plug me from all all these things, or he'd

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Speaker 2: crack a joke or so. Yeah, And I think those

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Speaker 2: things have got uses in everyone's life. You know, we

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Speaker 2: all need to break bad news about in a family

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Speaker 2: member can't go to your wedding, all sorts. So think

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Speaker 2: about know the facts, know the details, think about the

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Speaker 2: space you're going to break that bad news in fire

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Speaker 2: a warning shot, be honest, admit uncertainty, are lay guilt,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, think about that empty chair technique not always relevant.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't say if it was your dog, I don't think,

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Speaker 2: but but it might be helpful.

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Speaker 1: That's unbelievable to hear that. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: sharing that. That's incredibly valuable and someone who's probably had

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Speaker 1: to do it hundreds of times, a conversation that most

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Speaker 1: people would do everything to avoid. That's really valuable. Can

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Speaker 1: I can I ask about that? The people that you

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Speaker 1: feature in the walk, some of them they had you know,

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Speaker 1: you said they are all in comment it's all kadiakers.

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Speaker 1: But some of them they you know, that happened to

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Speaker 1: them through a suicide attempt and others it happened at avalanche.

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Speaker 1: Now interested in if there was a difference in the

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Speaker 1: way that they experienced their near death experience through time. Right,

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Speaker 1: So what's that amazing phrase about you're not dead until

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Speaker 1: you're cold. No, it's we're not dead until you're warm,

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Speaker 1: and dead until you're warm and dead, right, because if

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Speaker 1: you're what you know, because I remember, you know, kids

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Speaker 1: fall under the ice and four hours later they come

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Speaker 1: out and then they you know, there's electrical activity in

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Speaker 1: the heart even though the body's really really so like

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Speaker 1: when that we're talking like hours of warming, someone back

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Speaker 1: up versus you know, the paramedics come in such and

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Speaker 1: such and maybe less than two hours later they're sitting

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Speaker 1: in front of you. Did they report any differences?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're right. There's a story in the book

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Speaker 2: of a chackell, Roberto, who's Italian. He's a climber. He

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Speaker 2: loved climbing, and he went climbing with his best friend

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Speaker 2: Alessandro in the Dollar Nights. It was a nice day

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Speaker 2: and then, as often happens, the weather, the weather turned.

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Speaker 2: He was stuck on a ledge. A snowstorm came in

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Speaker 2: and he was buried in snow. And he still holds

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Speaker 2: the record for the world's longest cardichorrest, so nine hours.

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Speaker 2: His heart didn't beat for about four and a half

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Speaker 2: hours of that he was having physical or mechanical CPR,

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Speaker 2: so a person or a machine pressing on his chest

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Speaker 2: four and a half hours.

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Speaker 1: So when they say keep going until help arrives, they

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Speaker 1: really mean that.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, he was a super specific scenario, so

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Speaker 2: he was very cold. You know, he had twenty four

401
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Speaker 2: degrees in his body temperature when he was found. Our

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00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 2: normal be in thirty seven. So that's hence the saying

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Speaker 2: you're not dead until you're warm and dead. And Roberto,

404
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Speaker 2: well not only did he survive, he's back climbing. He

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Speaker 2: came to my book launch two weekends ago. He flew

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Speaker 2: from Italy. He's an incredible person, but in fact he

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Speaker 2: didn't know anything about his life when he woke up.

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Speaker 2: He had no memory of anything to do with the

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Speaker 2: incident or him until he watched some go pro footage

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Speaker 2: of exactly what happened. And there's real power actually in images,

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Speaker 2: video and nostalgia. I don't know if you've got your

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Speaker 2: phone with you now, but I've got seventeen thousand photos

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Speaker 2: on my phone. I'd love to know how many you've got.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how do I check?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, photos app It should say at the top somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Why I don't want to I don't want to be

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Speaker 1: I don't want this to be a pacing context. Two

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty seven, five hundred and sixty three might

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Speaker 1: be more than.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that is incredible. I think that's the highest I've

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Speaker 2: ever heard of a million. And what's incredible is we

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Speaker 2: take them, but we seldom look at them. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: so I've changed this year since talking to Roberto, who

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Speaker 2: used photos to get that memory back. When I take

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Speaker 2: a photo, I now look back maybe one three five

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Speaker 2: photos from the last one year, three years, five years,

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Speaker 2: ten years. As you know, every time I take one,

428
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 2: I have to look back because in the LA fires,

429
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 2: for example, you know the stuff people went back for.

430
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 2: They didn't go back for the expensive things or speakers

431
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 2: or radios we have.

432
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: For one air force once like no.

433
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and photos, photo albums. You know that's what

434
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: people got, and yet we don't look at them. So

435
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 2: I think nostalgia is super powerful. And if there's something simple,

436
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 2: it can be that you mentioned suicides. There's a patient

437
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 2: in the book All Summer who tried to take her

438
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 2: own life and she was very nearly did you know

439
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 2: she was in the intensive care unit, critically ill. She survived.

440
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 2: She couldn't come to the book launch. And the reason

441
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: for that is the best reason ever is she now

442
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 2: works as a mental healthness so she was working trying

443
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 2: to stop people get into the place she was at.

444
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: But a lot of them describe near death experiences, as

445
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 2: you say, a lot of the time is the classic

446
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: white light life review presence of someone there. And I

447
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 2: call myself spiritual, not religious. I'm a scientist mainly. And

448
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: actually there's a super firm basis for near death experience.

449
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 2: There was an eighty seven year old guy who had

450
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: terminal disease, who was in a medical research study having

451
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: a scan of his brain, and as he was there

452
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: having that scan, he died. And he wasn't resuscitated because

453
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: she had a life limited disease. That was the plan beforehand.

454
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: And the bits on the scan that lit up in

455
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: his brain as he died, here's the punchline. You can

456
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 2: probably guess. They are the bits related to the visual

457
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: cortex seeing light. They are the bits related to memory, imagery, smell, sounds,

458
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: and the bits related to consciousness or presence. So I

459
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: think it's true. You know, when you die, you see

460
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: a bright light, your life flashes before your eyes and

461
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: somebody is there with you. And I don't think that's

462
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: because of a religious thing. I think it's because that's

463
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: the way your brain dies. And if you're pulled out

464
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 2: of that before it's too late, then hence that's what

465
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: people describe.

466
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: Isn't that just brilliant that if we come unstuck and

467
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: I'm not like, if we're part of the protein chain,

468
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,239
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you don't have this experience if you're

469
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: being death rolled by a crock in the Northern territory. Like,

470
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you don't have the experience that someone's

471
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: with you, but to know that our brain has built

472
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: into it, it's cool. Nothing, We're fine, Like we can't

473
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: come back from this, but I'm going to make this

474
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: all right for you. Like that is just our bodies

475
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: are incredible things. But to have that as the shutdown

476
00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: sequence is pretty amazing. That is pretty incredible. What's the

477
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: evolutionary reason for that?

478
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: Wow?

479
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: Like, how did that be the thing that got passed on?

480
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: Wild? Completely wild? Yeah, and you know, it may also

481
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: happen at times when you have lack of blood supply

482
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: or you have a feint, you have other things which

483
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: cause lack of blood supply to the brain for example.

484
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, evenlutary advantage of that, and may be a

485
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: byproduct rather than you know, a purposeful advantage perhaps. But yeah,

486
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: great question. I don't know the answer. I don't know.

487
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: Well, that's book book number five, you know, let's kind

488
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: of there it is. But well, it's easy to understand.

489
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: And I've been thinking about this kind of recently. There's

490
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: parts of our brain and when it certainly when it

491
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: comes to you know, anxiety and depression and things that

492
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: we can do to make ourselves feel better, movement in

493
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: consort with others, singing, humming. These things only in Dune

494
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: in certain order. These unlock things in our brain which

495
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: other things don't do. Now, they don't need to be

496
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: religious practices. However, I'm imagining that they became a part

497
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: of religious practice because if there's ceremony around it, we

498
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: won't forget it, and if we give name and meaning

499
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: to it, then we'll mean it's important, we have to

500
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: do this. And so therefore we have this feeling that

501
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: when we are in this you know, religious services thing

502
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: without you know, you know, a priest or immam or whoever,

503
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: we get this feeling of elation we otherwise don't get. Well,

504
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: obviously it's this thing and we all believe in, but

505
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: there's ways to access that without it, So I can

506
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: understand why people would invent reasons for that to be so. Similarly,

507
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: if there's a white light and I have the feeling

508
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: that someone was in me, well, of course it's this

509
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: God they've been telling me about the whole time God

510
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: was there, Like I would believe that person if I

511
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: would grow up in a community like that. So I

512
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: can kind of understand why people talk about pearly gates,

513
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: and you know, Saint Peter was there. I'm sure there's

514
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: a version in Buddhism and Ourism, and you.

515
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: Know, IM not to throw science on it all, but

516
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: I wrote a book before this one called One Medicine,

517
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: which is about how animals can help us understand human disease.

518
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: You know, animals are incredible. They've done all the things

519
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: we do millions of years before. You know, how a

520
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: giraffe breathes is the same way as we now care

521
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: for someone with asthma, for example, and giraffes have been

522
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 2: breathing like this for two hundred million years. But there's

523
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: a bit in there about premature babies, and we now

524
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: know if we give them what's called kangaroo care, in

525
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 2: other words, skin to skin contact. Mum or dad holds them,

526
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: strokes their skin, sings to them, rocks with them, they

527
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: have less time in the pediatric intensive care unit. They

528
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: have less pain, they have less infections, all sorts of

529
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: things happen. Now it's called kangaroo care, but it probably

530
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: should be called chimp care or monkey care. Really. There's

531
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: the anthropologist Robin Dunbar who described Dunbar's number, the perfect

532
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: amount of people we have contacts with. Well, also found

533
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: out that chimps groom each other, and the reason we

534
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: groom each other is to expand our social circles of communication.

535
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 2: And when you're groomed, when you're stroked, your skin is

536
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: stroked at two meters per second light touch. It fires

537
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: up specific receptors which release opiates, so pain colors, natural

538
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: pink colors, and dolphins. And that's partially what kangaroo care

539
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: is is skin to skin contact. But these same receptors

540
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: are also in your inner ear and they respond to

541
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: things like the tone and the cadence of nursery rhymes,

542
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: of hummin of mantras. It's exactly the same as that

543
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: skin receptor. So there's absolutely a good reason for that,

544
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: and you can attach various beliefs on to it. That's

545
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: great and that's meaningful and fine, but yeah, super powerful.

546
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: We need to take a quick break back with Dr

547
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: Matt Morgan in just to miment Well, there was that

548
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: great article. I think her name was Bonnie Ware. She

549
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: was a pale care nurse and she took down the

550
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: notes of the regrets of the dying and she would

551
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 1: speak to people in palliative care, and she kind of

552
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,719
Speaker 1: condensed it down in a wonderful book, and there were

553
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: things like, oh, I wish I'd stayed in touch with

554
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: my friends, or why did I spend so much time

555
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: at work? Why did I miss all that stuff with

556
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: my kids? Were there similarities between the things that she

557
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: found and the stuff that you spoke with the people

558
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: that you studied for this book about.

559
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think definitely that time thing, the thing you

560
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: said about things. Most important things in life are not things,

561
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: you know, they are experiences and people. This Christmas again,

562
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: I've tried to put some of that in action. I

563
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: didn't buy physical gifts for people. I bought experiences, and

564
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: we bought stuff that we are bad at. We're very

565
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: bad at doing things for things, you know, even a hobby.

566
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: You take up a new hobby, next thing, you want

567
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: to be great at it. You want to beat that time,

568
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: you want to lift more, you want to So we

569
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: did pottery this Christmas. In fact, I need to pick

570
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: up the pots. We're absolutely awful. You know, they were terrible.

571
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: You can't eat or drink out. Then they are leaking.

572
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: And it was the best day ever. You know, my parents,

573
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: the kids were there we had such fun. So I

574
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: think doing things you're bad at is something we should encourage.

575
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: More quitting, We should quit more stuff, more quit less grit,

576
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: the joy of missing out rather than the fear of

577
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: missing out. So yeah, I think these things are similar.

578
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: One thing that came up a lot, which I didn't

579
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: expect though, which gave me insight into sometimes how I

580
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: feel is you are not your worst mistake. And it

581
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: feels a bit sacriing if you talk think about self forgiveness.

582
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: But there's another way to think about it. There's a

583
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: guy in the book call Rhyse Thomas. He's an international

584
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: rugby player. He played for Wales, incredible rugby player, South

585
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: African by birth, and he had a massive heart attack

586
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: at the peak of his fitness, almost and he needed

587
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: a heart transplant but wasn't well enough to have it,

588
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: so instead he had this mechanical heart fitted it's called

589
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: an ELVAD left and Trickler assist device, and this pumped

590
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: his blood for him. He didn't have a pulse. He

591
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: still doesn't other pulse today and that kept him alive.

592
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: But come into terms of that, you know, imagine you're

593
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: at the peak of your fitness your sport and all

594
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you can't walk up the stairs and

595
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,239
Speaker 2: you've got this battery pack keeping you alive. So he

596
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: turned to alcohol, and he made lots of tough life choices.

597
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: He would wake up in a police cell with this

598
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: thing beeping, with a minute to change the battery, you know,

599
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: and he did this multiple times. And when I met

600
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: Reese it was years after. He still got the l

601
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: he's still waiting for a transplant, but his life has

602
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: radically changed. And we often see people in ice, you

603
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: who've made bad choices, you know, But the truth is

604
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: we've all done that.

605
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: You know.

606
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: I've driven too fast, I've drunk too much, I've said

607
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: things that don't mean but I didn't end up in

608
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: that intensive care bed. And that's not because I'm better,

609
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: That's because I was lucky. There's this concept of moral luck.

610
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: You know, if you drive too fast and crash and

611
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: kill someone, you're in prison, you'll never forgive yourself. You're

612
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: in that intensive bed. And if you drive too fast

613
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: and everything's fine, you don't, and that's just luck. That's

614
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: just two sides of the same coin. And similarly, we

615
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: think about the past and the future. There's this concept

616
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: called the ship of theseus And if you've heard about this,

617
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: where you get a ship made of wood and every

618
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: day you change a plank, just one plank, and by

619
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 2: the end at state while you're at sea. Yeah, and

620
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: maybe at the end of a year, you've had a

621
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: long journey. Nothing in that ship is the same as

622
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: when it started. Every plank is different. Is it the shame?

623
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: Same ship is the question. And it's the same for

624
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 2: us ourselves. Every seven years. There's not a single cell

625
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 2: in your body that's the same. So more than seven

626
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: years ago, you're a different physical person. So you know

627
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: you are not your worst mistake. You can move on

628
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: and yes, stuff you've done in the past is kind

629
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: of you, but it's not as much of you as

630
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 2: tomorrow is actually, So you know, think of that future.

631
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: And for me seeing these people in ICU and thinking

632
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: about my past and my future, I think that's a

633
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 2: super super powerful thing to think about.

634
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: Man, when your kids ask you tough questions, you don't

635
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: give short answers to you. You'd be like, well, mate.

636
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 2: Go to bed brush your teeth.

637
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: You can't go, Yeah, you can't. When your when your

638
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: kid figures out the sound, eventually it will burn out,

639
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: and they realize they complete exidential horror that everything they've

640
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: ever known in love will vanish one day, eight hundred

641
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: billion years from now. But it will vanish. You can't leave.

642
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: It, You're right, you know. How do you balance that?

643
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: How do you say, do everything life submergency, but you

644
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: also need to pay the mortgage. That's the tricky But

645
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: isn't it is that balance?

646
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: So what you know you make, it's got to be

647
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: more than pottery. You can't have been unaffected by having

648
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: these conversations and diving so deep into it, because there

649
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: would have been ones that didn't make the book as well.

650
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: What else have you changed about your life? And particularly

651
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm interested, like, what have you changed about the way

652
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: that you parent your kids?

653
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: Wow? Yeah, I guess that's it's cliche, isn't it. That's

654
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: the hardest thing, and it is. And you know, we've

655
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: had tough times as parents, We've had tough times in

656
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: life through loss and other hard times. I think there's

657
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 2: some practical things. I mentioned the photo thing doing stuff

658
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: you're bad, So there's some practical stuff in there. I

659
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: think probably the biggest thing is to treat life as

660
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: an emergency and remember that it won't be there forever.

661
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 2: And I think you can do that with kids without

662
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: making them fear full of death. You know, you can

663
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: talk about being there in the present, you can talk

664
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: about don't worry about things that haven't yet happen, because

665
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: they may never happen. So I think it's possible, but

666
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: it's hard. I suppose the other thing, the other slight

667
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: phrase which I've talked about with the kids, it's said

668
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: that the two tougher time toughest times in life are

669
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 2: when you realize you can't do what you'd always hoped

670
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 2: and just after you have. And I think you know,

671
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 2: you've probably met amazing musicians, sports people, and they have

672
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: tough times when they lose, you know, lose that big match,

673
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: that album deal, and they probably have a tougher time

674
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: the day after they get it. Actually, oh man, I have.

675
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: Walked off stage at some of the biggest gig, like

676
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 1: the most the highest rated things our country's ever done,

677
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: and you hear the full mager and we're clear, which

678
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: means we're clear of the satellite, and I've literally gone, well,

679
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: what the fuck do I do now? What happens now?

680
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: Like I went off the rails that's what happened. Is

681
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: it is really really tricky if you I don't know,

682
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: say you're giving the keynote at you know, your kids

683
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: graduation speech night when they finish high school? What are

684
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 1: you telling them? What are you telling them about moving

685
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: forward into adulthood with the knowledge that you've gained from

686
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: speaking to these people about their need thatth experiences.

687
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: Brush your teeth good a bad.

688
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: Good has been linked to better outcomes and cardiac disease.

689
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: This we only talk about cavities with the woolf right now,

690
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 1: but cleaning your teeth is real important.

691
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, probably things life shouldn't be wasted on just living.

692
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: You know, do something. It should be a verb, not

693
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 2: a noun. You know what you what you do, not

694
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 2: what you are. You know, lots of people where I

695
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: work will introduce themselves higher I'm I'm a doctor. You know,

696
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: that's just a naming words. You know, you are what

697
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: you do. So, yeah, that's what might be what you

698
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 2: work as, but you're also a load of other stuff.

699
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: You're not. Your worse mistake, I think is a really

700
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: important thing for kids to learn and something I wasn't

701
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: taught actually, And it's okay to make mistakes. You're not

702
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: that thing. It's not all of you. And I guess

703
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: the controversial, slightly more controversial thing is I think everyone

704
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: should have a funeral before they die, so I probably

705
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: encourage that as well. That would be my TAKEO message to.

706
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: A funeral before you die. You Besides medicine, you also

707
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: learned sometime as I'm a parent in writing books over

708
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: the place, and I'll just gone and study artificial intelligence,

709
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: Like is there a point where, you know, as healthcare

710
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: systems around the world are put under increasing pressure, some

711
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: of the conversations that you are having with people, like

712
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: do you see some of these conversations being had by

713
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: a you know, a version of you on a screen,

714
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: a dupe of view, or you know how you know

715
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: with that showing up in our lives or what makes

716
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: a good life? Now? I used to make stuff. I mean,

717
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: I've spent my ty career making air. I don't make anything. Well,

718
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: the shit I ever did was always live, and so

719
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: it wasn't it was gone. The person that built this

720
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: house one hundred and twenty years ago, if they were alive,

721
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: they walked past and go built that had something to

722
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: show for it. So, as you know, our value is

723
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: often attached to a work. You know, the healthcare implications

724
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: of what's happening in the world of always is absolutely bonkers.

725
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: What are you excited about? What are you worried about?

726
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me just push back in the thing. You've

727
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: made nothing, you know, I'd say, And this isn't just

728
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 2: blueing our your back end. You've made the thing which

729
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: is the hardest thing to me of new, which is

730
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: people's people's memories and people's you know, nostalgia and thinking

731
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: back to that. Yeah, our house is great, but the

732
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: best things in life are not things, you know. I

733
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: listened to a podcast just yesterday with an amazing Australian philosopher,

734
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 2: Peter Singer. In the Animal rights He interviewed Danny Canneman

735
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: from Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow.

736
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: I just guys, just chat.

737
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: Wild. You know. Caneman's talking about the experienced machine versus

738
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: the memory machine, and how actually we value the memory

739
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 2: of stuff more than actually the stuff. So, you know,

740
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 2: there's people who've been to your gigs. Yeah they love

741
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: the gig, amazing, perfect, but actually they've lived on the

742
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: memories and the stories from that for the next ten

743
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: to twenty thirty years. In that house you know that

744
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: house you talk about can be burnt down in an instant,

745
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 2: as we've seen in La So I think you've made

746
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: the hardest thing, which which is memory. Really In terms

747
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: of AI, yeah, I use AI. I am a technophile.

748
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: I like technology. I did some research related to I

749
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: think it's great. But medicine is not really about all science.

750
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 2: You know, it's the most humane of the sciences, the

751
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 2: most scientific of the humanities, is the quote. So you know,

752
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: when you're speaking to people and breaking bad news, you

753
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 2: can't just boot up Siri and say, you know, tell

754
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: them their dad has died. Yeah, even if it's perfect,

755
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: they don't want that. They don't remember the words who say.

756
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 2: They remember how you make them feel. And that's why

757
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 2: I think some professions like medicine, nursing care and professions,

758
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: I guess they'll be benefited. I think by AI they

759
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: won't be replaced.

760
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: Well. About twenty years ago, I broke my hand in Canada.

761
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: I've had like four surgeries on it. I was snowboarding

762
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: and they did a nerve block on me. So I

763
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: was awake the whole they were drilling and putting stuff in,

764
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: and I turned to the nurse who was assisting the

765
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: orthopoi the carpenter, and I just said, and I'm thirty

766
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: thirty years old, my thirtieth birthday, said can you hold

767
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: my hand please? And she said in a beautiful connecting accent,

768
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 1: of course, And she held my hand while this guy

769
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: was chopping and drilling and thing. And I don't care

770
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: how good your you know, Tesla robot Is. I don't

771
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: know if she was striking most get two meters a second,

772
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: but that was like medas lamb. It was amazing, like

773
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: just that I'm not alone here and that is that

774
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: was extraordinarily important in that moment for me. But yeah,

775
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 1: I don't think that that can't that can't get replaced,

776
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: that's for sure.

777
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: No, and it shouldn't be replaced either, as you know,

778
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: humanities there for a reason. There's one patient in the

779
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: book who had severe COVID who needed a life saving

780
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: therapy COLLECMO where they stick your blood through a machine

781
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: and add oxygen.

782
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: Oh that's something. It's Richard's we can I think he

783
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: went on. I think he went up to Switzerland somewhere

784
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: to do something like that in the nineties.

785
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's less Keith Richard's more more death related Uh,

786
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 2: And I guess you asked about think how it's changed you.

787
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: One thing that did change is how how I write.

788
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 2: So we write a lot of medical notes in hospital.

789
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: They're often very dry because people couldn't visit, because you know,

790
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: his wife couldn't hold his hand when he was maybe

791
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 2: going to die. The way I wrote stuff changed. I

792
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 2: started writing two patients rather than about them. So this

793
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 2: particular chap called Luca, I wrote a note that said, Hi, Luca,

794
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 2: I spoke with your wife by phone today so it

795
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 2: couldn't come in. I told her you were sick enough

796
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: to die. I could hear your daughter in the background,

797
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: and I said, we'll do all we can to get

798
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: her husband back and to get your daughter's dad back.

799
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: And I didn't think much of it after that, and

800
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: I met him six weeks later. He came back from

801
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: London after I having this crazy therapy. He survived, and

802
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 2: you could read that note to him, you know, in

803
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: the medical note. Success is his story, it's not mine.

804
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: So I think for people listening, we've forgotten about letters.

805
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 2: I don't know what do you write letters still.

806
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: I haven't written a letter in a long time. Just

807
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: a powerful thing to do because you can revisit it

808
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: and there's something about someone's handwriting that you can tell

809
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: a lot and you recognize it. You might recognize the

810
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: smell of their cologne on the paper, you might know

811
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: the stationery. You might see a stamp or a postmark

812
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: from somewhere. Like there's a lot too it Like it

813
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: was a good idea, It was a really good idea.

814
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: We just came up with an idea. It's almost as

815
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: good and a bit easier. It's not as good, but

816
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 1: there's that's kind of that's kind of where we are.

817
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: There's a you mentioned the billionaires and tech brows and

818
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: stuff before, and there's a bit of a movement. And unfortunately,

819
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: like you, we are both very lucky to live in

820
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: countries that have a universal health care, no systems, a

821
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: perfect system. You know, you're going to do the best

822
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: you can with the budget. You've got to try to

823
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: help as many people as possible. There's going to be

824
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: cracks it going to fall from and that's going to

825
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 1: suck when it happens. I lived in America for ten years.

826
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: What we have is like a colony on Mars compared

827
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 1: to life there, Like it is Banannas. How expensive having

828
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: a baby is it's one hundred and six hundred and

829
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: sixteen grand or something insane? Insane? Right, what you know,

830
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: when we're here in this you know, we grow up

831
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: in this world where you know, we're going to see

832
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: the doctor. We're going to see that. Then it's going

833
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: to be better. Then it's going to be better. And

834
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: I'm lucky in that I've been around medicine my whole life,

835
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 1: and so I'm aware of the limitations of things. Yeah,

836
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: when you go to this big, fancy hospital and there's

837
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: all the machines that go bing, you know, there are

838
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: people that can afford to have all the machines that

839
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: go being, and people that can afford to have you know,

840
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: all of that. Do you see, you know, what do

841
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: we need to be careful of? As you know, as

842
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: wealth kind of kind of accumulates at the top and

843
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: more people miss out down here around health outcomes and

844
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: access to to care.

845
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I can see from here, probably through my window,

846
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: where the NHS in the UK was kind of started.

847
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 2: It was a Welsh guy called an iron Bevern. In fact,

848
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 2: I helped her in a play that Michael Sheen played

849
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 2: the role of an iron Bevern this this Welsh kind

850
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: of union guy who wanted better health for the people

851
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: working in industry. Down minds that's kind of where it

852
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 2: started from. But when he talked about that, you know,

853
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: back in back in the fifties and forties, there were

854
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: probably only four five treatments you could have. You know,

855
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: you could have your appendix out, you can have some

856
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 2: steroids that your dad probably used a lot of as

857
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: a rheumatologist. You could have some antibiotics game changer, and

858
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: you could probably have better childcare experiences. There's probably all

859
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: you could do. And now you know, in the hospital

860
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: I work in close to where Niram Bevan said that,

861
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: you can have a treatment that takes out your blood cells,

862
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: adds proteins to the surface of them, gets them to

863
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: kill cancer, and it costs a third of a million

864
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 2: pound and extends life expectancy by a new nine to

865
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 2: eighteen months or something. You know, it was not designed

866
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: to be able to do that. It's amazing the advances

867
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 2: we've had, but it's also super tough, super hard. I

868
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: guess my take on it is, Yeah, I worked in

869
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: Australian system, which I think was really good, but you

870
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: don't get differential access to treatments. What you do is

871
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: you get a different rapper of those treatments. So for example,

872
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 2: you have better food and a carpet in a lovely

873
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 2: place that you can book and have great park in

874
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 2: and have good technology there. But the operation you have

875
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 2: is the same operation as in the public system. The

876
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: person doing it is often the same person doing it.

877
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:22,439
Speaker 2: So I think differential differentiating according to those rappers, which

878
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 2: is what most of private healthcare does. I'm not saying

879
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: it's good, but I think that's probably kind of more acceptable.

880
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: What you shouldn't do is differentiate, you know, the other stuff.

881
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 2: And at the same time, there's an American guy called

882
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 2: Peter Farmer who said it's very expensive to provide poor

883
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: healthcare to poor people in an expensive country. There's a

884
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: lot of pack in there. But effectively providing good healthcare

885
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: it actually makes economic sense as well. It's not just

886
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: a moral ethical thing, it's a bad idea not to

887
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 2: so I think it works from both ends.

888
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, it creates a lot of desperation sometimes, But when

889
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: you mentioned the cost of some of these treatments, I

890
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 1: think when I was in the States, I found out

891
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: that of all the healthcare costs that people incur in

892
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: their entire lives, ninety eight percent of them would occur

893
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: in the final two years of their life. And I

894
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: heard this from someone who used that as the first sentence,

895
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: and their second sentence was, if we rethink our relationship

896
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: to death, what else could we do with that money

897
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: in that time?

898
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: Well insurance companies have actually used those stats to offer.

899
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: I mean, if you've heard the offer that some of

900
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 2: them use is if you're at that point and you

901
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 2: know you're on your third cycle of chemotherapy or your

902
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: third round of advanced treatments, and you're getting more and

903
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 2: more impact and freely each time, they can give you

904
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: a choice of, Look, do you want eighty percent of

905
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: the cost of your fourth cycle of chemotherapy to just

906
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 2: go and spe and give to family, do whatever you want,

907
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: or do you want that fourth cycle which we'll fund

908
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: And whilst I you know cynically that that's probably a

909
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 2: fiscal benefit for them, but there's something in there, isn't there?

910
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: And thinking about survivorship rather than survival. There's another book

911
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: you mentioned, Elva Berkman's book, which is amazing. There's a

912
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 2: book called Die with Zero. I don't know if you've

913
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 2: heard of that one. That's an amazing book where he

914
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 2: talks about doing the stuff with money before you die.

915
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 2: You know, don't we to tell your dad to give

916
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 2: it to your sons and daughters and charity and other things.

917
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 2: You do it before A you get the benefit from it,

918
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: and B it's often more use for those people actually,

919
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's definitely something in that conversation.

920
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 1: Is it difficult to speak to people who might have

921
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 1: grown up perhaps not around medical systems and things like that.

922
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: It's just thinking, well, hang on, there's got a machine

923
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: somewhere that you can and plugging and turn on. There's

924
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: got to be a drug somewhere. Can we get a

925
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: private jet and fly them to you know, the Norfolk

926
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: Islands to you know, drink the seagrass that has been

927
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: proven to come on? Come on, Like that's got to

928
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: be a hard conversation to have too, when you're trying

929
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: to explain the limits of what it is you can

930
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: and can't do.

931
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a conversation. We have a lot. And

932
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: the truth is a lot of those fancy machines that

933
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: go ping, as you said, they don't fix anything. They

934
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: just give us time to fix something. And although medicine

935
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: has advanced loads ultimately, you know the stuff that works

936
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: where I work in ICU, the most effective treatment is

937
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 2: the nurse of your bedside. You know, that's the most

938
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 2: valuable thing there, The most valuable treatment we have. There's antibotics, steroids, operations,

939
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 2: the same things is that Annara and Bevin had in

940
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 2: his hands. They are still the most effective things. Actually,

941
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 2: and the more niche you go, less useful those things

942
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 2: generally are. You know, there's exceptions that the treatment I

943
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: mentioned adding proteins onto cells called car TI therapy. It's

944
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 2: crazy treatment and it is super effective for some things.

945
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 2: But you have to balance. You have to balance the need.

946
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 1: That's incredible. Tell me what it's you know, when you're

947
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,760
Speaker 1: having these conversations, when you know you mentioned the conversation

948
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: with a sticker on your hand. Has the knowledge that

949
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: these people have given you about their need. Death experiences

950
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 1: changed the way that you have those conversations.

951
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one thing is super important for families

952
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 2: to know we've talked about guilt or the other thing

953
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: is pain in distress. So I'll often say things, look,

954
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: they from the moment this has happened when they had

955
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 2: a cardigress for example, they've been in no pain or distress.

956
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 2: But if you want to talk to them, if you

957
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 2: want to touch them, hold their hand, play them music. Absolutely,

958
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 2: do all those things. I don't know if they'll remember that.

959
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: They might too, they might remember some of it if

960
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: they survive. So but do those things if it helps you,

961
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 2: and if it's something you think they want, because people

962
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 2: are often worried about, you know, touching machines or doing

963
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 2: things wrong, and you know, ultimately it's just your dad

964
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: in a bed still, so just try and treat them

965
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 2: like your dad.

966
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: Does anybody come out of knew that they experience like

967
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: no longer liking anchovies, or suddenly understanding Spanish or something

968
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: like that.

969
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 2: Well, maybe speaking Welsh that would be handy here, because

970
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: that's that's probably more different.

971
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: A lot of ours, like a lot of that don't

972
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: sound like ours.

973
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 2: Well, it's awkward in hospitals as well, because we've got

974
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 2: to have things named in both English and Welsh, so

975
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 2: you know, your time to respond to an emergency can

976
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 2: be significantly longer long translated. Yeah, things that come out

977
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 2: in near death experiences, Yeah, I haven't seen anything particularly

978
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 2: weird like that. Normally, an appreciation of life. A lot

979
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 2: of the things people remember from ICU though, or based

980
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: on real stuff, So people will remember some odd things.

981
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 2: They'll say, there are dogs look in my feet the

982
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: whole time, and actually we've got these pumps on your

983
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 2: feet to try and prevent blood clots, which kind of

984
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 2: feels a bit like that. They say, I was in

985
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 2: an airport quite a lot, and there are loads of

986
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 2: trolleys being pushed past. So often it's based on real stuff.

987
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: Actually, isn't that fascinating that even when our brains are

988
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: like that, the what's that thing that we do when

989
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: we look at clouds and see at paradolia, when we

990
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: make a reason out of a pattern? All right, Oh,

991
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: that that's how we recognize. I can see a quarter

992
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: of a face and go, oh, that's a whole person.

993
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 1: I don't need to see all of them, like our

994
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: brain puts it all together. It's fascinating that we have

995
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: this much data. I was obviously a dog looking my foot,

996
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: because that's what I think even then.

997
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it goes back to what you've said,

998
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 2: is that's such a human thing, isn't it. Stories And

999
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 2: in the my first year in medical school, you know,

1000
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 2: you sometimes remember snapshots of stuff in your life. There

1001
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 2: was this one lecture and somebody asked a very simple question.

1002
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 2: They say, what do all patients and families want? Those

1003
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,439
Speaker 2: the question and people put up their hands and said,

1004
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: you know, a diagnosis or a qua or pain relief

1005
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 2: for example. And you know, I still don't know the answer.

1006
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 2: But the answer that the chap gave, who is a neurologist,

1007
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 2: amazing guy. The answer he gave was somebody to make

1008
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 2: sense of the story. And actually, I think that is

1009
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 2: what medicine still is. You know, we can't cure everything.

1010
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: One in five people in ic will die, actually despite

1011
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 2: AI in amazing technology. But what we want always is

1012
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 2: to somebody to make sense to that story. And even

1013
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 2: if it means afterwards saying it wasn't a dog lick

1014
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 2: in your feet, it was it was the pumps. Actually

1015
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 2: you know that that's important. And yeah, I think stories,

1016
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: we're full of stories. If I chop you in half, now,

1017
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 2: the thing that will spill out probably just stories all over.

1018
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 1: The floor, now, you know. And you had these conversations

1019
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 1: with people who have had near death experiences, Well does

1020
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,760
Speaker 1: that change the way that you I don't know, rent

1021
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: a Borrow's bike and go for a cycle when you're

1022
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: in line, or consider going on the back of a motorcycle,

1023
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: or saying yes to us skiing holiday, or going scuba diving,

1024
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 1: or taking risk in your life.

1025
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the real answer is it changes everything,

1026
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 2: and that changes absolutely nothing. At the same time, I

1027
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 2: think it flavors life. If you find the decisions tough,

1028
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 2: it's a prison to see them through. It doesn't mean

1029
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 2: that I'm not paying my mortgage and I'm you know,

1030
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 2: every life is every day as a party. But it

1031
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 2: makes you think about that what I do think about

1032
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 2: You know, you see these people trying to live a

1033
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 2: long life, trying to live until the one hundred and

1034
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 2: twenty by drinking horse as you in all sorts.

1035
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: It's not for me.

1036
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 2: Well, it just makes me think, you know, why why

1037
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 2: are you doing that? You know, life isn't a competition.

1038
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:11,919
Speaker 2: When you get to one hundred and twenty, you don't

1039
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 2: win it. There's a Hunter S. Thompson quote that I'm

1040
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 2: sure you've heard, but this is great and this probably

1041
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 2: sums it up for me. I'm going to read it.

1042
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 2: It says life should not be a journey to the

1043
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 2: grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well,

1044
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 2: pretty well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside

1045
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 2: and a cloud of smoke. Thollery used up, totally worn out,

1046
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 2: loudly proclaiming, Wow, what a ride. You know, life is

1047
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: there to be lived. Yes, you need to think about

1048
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 2: your kids, your family, your well be all that stuff,

1049
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: but look at it through the prism of you know

1050
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 2: you live once. Life is an emergency. Don't waste your

1051
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 2: life on living.

1052
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: I love it, man, I'm so grateful that you are

1053
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: in as well, and I'm very grateful to connect with

1054
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: you on this topic. It is something it's important to

1055
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: think about it. It's important to think about it because

1056
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: when I think about it, the cuddle I have with

1057
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: my kids is better. The meal tastes nicer, the sleeper

1058
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: is more satisfying than drink of water. As you mentioned,

1059
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: what did you say, Pennies from Heaven?

1060
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 2: Was that what he said?

1061
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: The drink of water is so refreshing when you think

1062
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, it's all there for you. Everything you

1063
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: ever wanted out of everything is right in front of you.

1064
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: If you just notice the feeling of your shirt on

1065
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: your skin and start from there, It's great to speak

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00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: with your buddy. If there's any way I could be

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00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: of assistance, please let me know we're next time you're

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00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: down here, come and say hey, well.

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00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 2: Thank you from me and listeners. Thank you for helping

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00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 2: us make sense for story and sharing your story. Tell

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00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 2: us about Ruth, tell us about your life. Thank you.

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00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: And that was doctor Matt Morgan. His latest book is

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00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: called a Second Act. It's one of the many books

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00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: that he has written. I'll put a link in the

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00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: show notes where you will also find tickets to the

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00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: next edition of story Club, the live show that we

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00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 1: do every month's live storytelling on stage in Sydney. If

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00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: you can't make it to the show because you're not

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00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 1: in Sydney, that's fine. We have a substack where for

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00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 1: a very small subscription you can watch we film them all.

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00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: You can watch the stories and we put a new

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00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: one out every week, and you can be a part

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00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: of story Club without having to make your way to

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00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: the Factory Theater, which is where we are doing them.

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00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: All the links are in the show notes. Thank you

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00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: so much for being a part of it. I hope

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00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: you have a wonderful week. I'll be back on Monday.