WEBVTT - The truth about men who kill women 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:06.480 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. Earlier 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.240 this month, in the space of just three days, four 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.200 women and girls in Australia were allegedly killed by men 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:14.960 and boys known to them. Among them a thirteen year 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:17.720 old Layla j Jeffrey, whose body was found in bush 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.799 Lane and Regional Victoria. A sixteen year old boy she 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.919 knew three friends has been charged with her murder. In 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.960 the Northern Territory, a seventeen year old girl was allegedly 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:29.240 killed by a thirty four year old man who she'd 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:33.360 been in a domestic relationship with. In Twomber, thirty year 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.440 old Janna Armstrong, the mother of a four month old baby, 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.800 disappeared from her home. Her former partner has been charged 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.199 with her murder. And in Melbourne, Lavanya Chapper was allegedly 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:46.839 murdered by her husband while her two children were in 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.320 the house. Two months ago. The Prime Minister resisted calls 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:53.280 for a Royal commission into domestic violence. 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:55.080 Will we see this royal commission. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.360 As calls for royal commission about everything. 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.600 But women and girls continue to be killed times within 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.720 hours of one another. Today, we're bringing you an episode 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.920 from twenty twenty four, where Ruby Janes speaks to Australia's 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:11.480 Sex Discrimination Commissioner, doctor Anna Cody about why our domestic 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:15.080 violence crisis is getting worse and why years of plans, 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:23.600 campaigns and promises have failed to stop it. It's Sunday, 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:28.080 July nineteen. This episode was originally published in July twenty 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:28.600 twenty four. 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.479 Doctor Cody. Thank you so much for taking the time 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.639 to speak with me today here, Ruby. So I believe 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.039 that you were last on seven AM when you'd just 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.039 begun as Commissioner, so a year ago now, and it 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.240 strikes me that it would be a tough time to 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:47.240 be Sex Discrimination Commissioner, because it's a hard time to 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.440 be a woman in Australia at the moment. Fifty two 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.880 women have been killed by men just in the first 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.600 half of this year, and there have been several terrible 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.480 killings in recent weeks. Why do you think this is happening? 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.160 I agree it is a really hard time to be 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.520 a woman in Australia right now. When I hear of 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:11.880 another homicide, I feel shocked. I feel I find it 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.960 deeply upsetting to hear of another woman who has been 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:20.240 killed in some of the most sadistic and horrific ways, 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.960 and now in a position of responsibility for trying to 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.679 make some change in that, I feel that as a weight. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.360 I definitely feel that as I have a responsibility to 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:35.200 try and make as much change as I can, really 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:39.959 trying to understand what policies need to change and how 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:44.000 I can influence that policy change. So it's both personal 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.560 and then it's sort of like, I've got this real 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.960 responsibility to do something about this. How can I do this? 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:55.280 And do you feel like you understand why men kill women? 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.960 I think I have glimpses of it. I think the 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:05.680 fundamental cause is gender inequality and very rigid stereotypes values norms. 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.720 But that doesn't mean all men kill all that all 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.880 domestic and family violence ends in homicide. So the actual 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.480 homicide part of it, The evidence is that there's three categories. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.440 Some who it's more sort of hap hazard, it's alcohol related, 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.280 drug related, and in some ways it's the same violence 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.040 but it just tips over into homicide. And then there's 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.400 the other where there's the course of control we're sort 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.160 of typified by a typical white, middle class professional men. 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.480 And the third scenario is where someone's had a crisis 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.000 in their life. So it's often older men, for example, 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:42.320 They've had a mental health incident or had a particularly 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.880 difficult sort of crisis in their life, and then they 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.880 sort of go downhill and then suddenly kill. 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:52.120 Let's talk a bit more about what the government is 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.520 trying to do. It was elected partly on this platform 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.440 to address violence against women, and it has a plan. 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.880 It'snational Plan to End Violence against Women and Children. It 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.640 was launched almost two years ago. Now with this target 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:10.440 of reducing female intimate partner homicides by twenty five percent 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.880 each year, we're obviously not even close to being on 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.120 track for an outcome like that, So tell me what 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:17.240 you think of the National Plan. 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:23.320 National plan in itself has good objectives, it's how we 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.760 implement it. We really need to see a decent investment 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:31.920 of money policy change as well. While the ending Violence 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.719 payment that the government announced in its most recent budget 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:39.440 is a one off and welcome response, it's not enough. 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:41.920 We need to change some of the ways in which 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.520 social security gets measured. So assuming that income is shared 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.120 in a family in a couple is a wrong assumption. 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.000 That doesn't happen in violent relationships. Income is not shared 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:57.560 and we also know that the unemployment benefit is absolutely insufficient. 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.200 So for any woman who's got children over four ten, 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.320 then she's stuck with the unemployment benefit and that is 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.480 not a living support system, So that needs to change, 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.920 so that some of the ongoing supports within the social 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.239 security system need to change in order to support women 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:20.760 leaving violent relationships. We've seen that one of the best 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.360 ways of reducing domestic and family violence in First Nations 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:28.880 communities is to involve First Nations women and First Nations 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:33.400 men and communities in designing the measures that are needed. So, 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:38.039 for example, we've seen in just reinvestment projects in Marangoka 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.640 and Burke a reduction in domestic and family violence by 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.599 thirty percent in that community. Those are the sorts of 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:49.640 holistic responses that the National Plan is supportive of. It's 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.000 recognizing the handing over of some of that control and 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.000 ensuring that First Nations communities and First Nations women are instrumental, 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:01.880 are at the center of design. 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.640 And something that we've heard a lot from the Prime 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.440 Minister and others is that domestic violence is a cultural 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.520 issue that we need to address attitudes towards women in 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.400 society in order to address domestic violence, and we've had 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.159 ad campaigns around that, around respect being the starting point, 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.159 and those campaigns, I mean, they are heartwarming, they're certainly 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.039 well intentioned, but should we be asking the question now 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:28.279 are they working? 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.320 We need to do more research on what actually works 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.720 for behavior change. What we want to see is behavior change. 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.480 We need to understand what is it that we actually 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:43.120 need to do to stop that homicide. Absolutely, we need 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:47.320 to also change attitudes and values, and some of the 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.520 statistics coming out of the Personal Safety Survey in twenty 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:52.440 one to twenty two showed that there was a shift 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.279 in some of those attitudes. But the most recent statistics 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.160 are horrific. And we know that Australia, you know, of 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:04.520 the OECD countries where the eighth worst in terms of 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.320 the G twenty countries. So we have a serious problem 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:07.600 with this. 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.320 Do you think we need to make an ideological shift then, 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.040 to change the way that we as a country think 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.320 about and talk about domestic violence. 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.040 If we think about a similar threat, if we think 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.400 of up to forty women depending on how we count, 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.920 who have been killed this year and we're only just 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:31.840 halfway through how many women have been killed, and the 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.080 investment that we put into that, and there has been 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.440 a substantial investment, but is that enough? But if we 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.160 do draw an analogy with what sort of resources go 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:44.160 into addressing terrorism, for example, and how many people have 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.280 been killed by terrorism in Australia in the last five years, 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.920 we have a huge investment in anti terrorism actions, do 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:57.560 we have an equivalent investment in anti domestic and family violence? 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.560 So I think we do need to think about it 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:08.520 differently in recognizing how it is intrinsic. It's intrinsic to 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.640 how we are in Australia and that's a horrible thing 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.080 to acknowledge. So how do we stop it? How do 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.840 we stop it being a part of the identity of 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:19.200 who we are as Australians. 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.280 And let's talk more about this idea that we should 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.800 treat domestic violence with the same urgency as we treat 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.360 domestic terrorism. That's a concept that Rosy Baddy first raised 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.600 when her son was killed by his father eleven years ago. Now, 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.320 the idea of family terrorism. And I suppose when you 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:52.200 think about terrorism, the idea or the fear there is 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.800 that a terror attack could affect any person, So the 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.480 innocent public is at risk. But there is this common 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.480 perception that astic violence isn't a public risk, but it's 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.520 a personal one. And that sort of goes to the 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.240 heart of the issue, doesn't that people don't necessarily see 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.480 domestic violence as something that could happen to them or 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.280 to someone that they know until it does. 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.240 And yet we know we all know people, all of 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.280 us in our families. We've all got family members who've 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.000 experienced domestic and family violence. It is prevalent. We know 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.280 it touches all of our lives, and yet we want 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.480 to believe that it doesn't, that it is someone else 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:35.880 somewhere else, and it's not. It is absolutely an intrinsic 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.320 part across all classes, across all cultures. And maybe it 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.840 is that fear of it impacting on us, and I 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.240 think a lack of drawing connections between even if it 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:53.760 doesn't affect us personally, how it may affect our children, 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.640 or the way in which our society functions and thinks 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.480 about the role of women and the role of men, 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:05.040 and how limiting it is for men if they you know, 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.559 I think there's a continuum in terms of our very 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.440 gendered ideas and stereotypes around what is masculinity and what 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.440 is femininity. Those are constraining for men and boys, so 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.720 deeply constraining and leads to things like really bad mental 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.200 health statistics for men. So we know that there's a 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:27.760 complex way in which domestic and family violence, driven by 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:32.040 some of those really gendered, rigid ideas, impacts on all 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:35.520 of us. But maybe we're not the one being physically 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:40.520 hurt or emotionally hurt, but we are impacted in our society, 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.520 all of us by the prevalence of domestic and family violence. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:49.280 And making this kind of ideological shift to thinking about 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.600 domestic violence as akin to terrorism, that would seem to 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.080 me to mean that we would then be asking that 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:00.520 law enforcement would take a harder line on violence against women, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.120 so police would perhaps have more resources, on more power. 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.080 Given some of the significant failings that we've seen from 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.400 police when it comes to domestic violence, do you think 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.160 that it's a good idea for law enforcement to have 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:15.520 more of a role in this space. 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:22.480 I think depending on how law enforcement were to use 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.080 those powers. I think acting on breaches of that prind 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.360 of violence orders is really significant. But I also think 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.280 what we saw in Burke in the Marangooga project was 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:40.239 actually police working cooperatively with community responding to what they identified. 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.880 So it was very much a collaborative response rather than 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:48.040 a punitive response, and so I think we have to 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:53.480 reimagine rather than a law and order rather police serving 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.439 the community type of response. It must be really hard 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:02.280 to be a police officer going to domestic violence incidents 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.880 on such a frequent basis. I would think that would 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.120 be a really difficult part of their work. But I 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.360 think it is about training people to have an empathy 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:17.120 and an understanding, being able to properly identify who the 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.880 victim is, having a gendered understanding of how domestic and 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.600 family violence plays out, having the complexity of understanding around 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:28.920 cultural and racial implications within domestic and family violence, as 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.360 well as LGBQTR plus so there's a lot of training. 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.240 So I don't I wouldn't assume it was a more 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.040 punitive law and order approach. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.920 So Anna, do you have faith that the current government 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.560 has the right priorities in their sites when it comes 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.440 to gendered violence and that they're going to invest in 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:47.959 the way that we need to see. 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.960 I think this government and I know that the Minister 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.400 for Women, Katie Gallahay, is deeply committed to change in 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.280 this area as it is the Prime Minister, as is 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.880 the Attorney General who has reviewed the family law system. 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.040 We know that family law system is also functioned to 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:10.200 keep women in violent relationships. So yes, I am. I 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.480 am hopeful with some of the measures, but we need 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.000 to see in the MAFO and as a result of 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.880 the rapid review that the government has announced, we need 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.720 to see some really concrete and large scale investments in 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.559 this area. 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.920 And thank you so much for your time, Pleasure Ruby. 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.200 If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.360 the one eight hundred Respect Hotline is available twenty four 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.600 hours a day one eight hundred seven three seven seven 0:13:43.679 --> 0:14:06.000 three to two. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.959 Tomorrow at seven am, more than a dozen insiders speak 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.360 out against their former colleague culste So what did I 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:05.040 really say about Nine's X posted boy in his podcast Pivot? 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.280 He was very good even back then at sucking up 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.600 to the right people, the execs. There was one particular 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:16.280 News and Current Affairs director who was visiting Brisbane and 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.160 there was an afterwork drinks you know. He said, I 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.480 just heard this voice behind me just really just talking 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.400 himself up to the point of tedium, and I after 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.360 about five minutes of listening to his dissertation on why 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.320 he was so wonderful and excellent. I sort of turned 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.080 around to Lee Anderson, the news director, and said, who 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.040 the hell's this blow, and Lisa said, oh, this is 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.280 our new boy Wonder, and that's when he said, well, 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:43.400 he might be your boy Wonder, but he's a twenty 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:44.360 four carrot fuck wit. 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.160 It'll be in your seat tomorrow. I'm Vaniel James. Thanks 0:14:48.160 --> 0:15:02.440 for listening to seven AM.