WEBVTT - Pub tests and double standards

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. This week,

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<v Speaker 1>Labor rolled out its flagship social media ban for under sixteenth.

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<v Speaker 1>The reform was expected to be one last win for

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<v Speaker 1>the government after a year of political victories, but while

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<v Speaker 1>the spotlight was on the minister leading the charge, it

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<v Speaker 1>was for all the wrong reasons. Instead of having a

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<v Speaker 1>run way to promote the ban, Anika well spent the

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<v Speaker 1>week defending her use of taxpayer funded expense in toilerments. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>former political advisor to two Prime Minister's Sean Kelly on

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<v Speaker 1>how even a tightly planned policy launch could be knocked

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<v Speaker 1>off course and the unquenchable first to apply the pub

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<v Speaker 1>test to some and not others. It's Saturday, December thirteenth, Suan,

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<v Speaker 1>Nice to see you again. This week the social media

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<v Speaker 1>band for teenagers finally came into effect. So how would

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<v Speaker 1>the Communications Minister Anika Wells and the Prime Minister Anthony

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<v Speaker 1>Alberinezi have been planning for this moment?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, they would have been planning for it for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>You would think generally with a policy of this size,

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<v Speaker 2>with the policy of this impact, with this level of

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<v Speaker 2>national attention, you would have a very clearly thought out

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<v Speaker 2>media plan. It would be, you know, in some type

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<v Speaker 2>of a spreadsheet, and you would have a knowledge of

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<v Speaker 2>the interviews you wanted to do, the challenge you wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to hit. You would have op eds ready to go.

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<v Speaker 2>You'd probably have stakeholders worded up as well, ready to

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<v Speaker 2>go out there and back the policy in. You would

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<v Speaker 2>have planned this thing to within an inch of its life.

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<v Speaker 1>So instead of the reception that they wanted, though, there's

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<v Speaker 1>been revelations that Wells had spent one hundred thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 1>on flights to New York, and so journalist started digging

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<v Speaker 1>into your experienses. When a story like that starts, serve

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<v Speaker 1>seeing in the media what happens inside a political office,

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<v Speaker 1>what conversations would start as have been having it about

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<v Speaker 1>how to handle it.

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<v Speaker 2>They flow along a number of channels. The first thing

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<v Speaker 2>you always have to ask is, well, what else is

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<v Speaker 2>going to come out? And that's not necessarily a matter

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<v Speaker 2>of sinister things, as a matter of the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>if you're in politics, once the media decides to focus

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<v Speaker 2>on you, they will find other things. And that's not

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<v Speaker 2>a comment on the legitimacy of various stories or otherwise.

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<v Speaker 2>It is just for any politician. You will manage to

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<v Speaker 2>find other things so you do not want that spotlight

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<v Speaker 2>trained on you. And then you're going to think, well,

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<v Speaker 2>what is our approach then? Do we try to answer

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<v Speaker 2>these questions? Do we explain them away? Do we do

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what the government has done and say this is

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<v Speaker 2>all within the rules. And often you see these types

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<v Speaker 2>of controversies follow a bit of a pattern. Generally the

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<v Speaker 2>politician will attempt to give an answer, shutting it down.

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<v Speaker 2>Then you wait and see. At every point, you're throwing

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<v Speaker 2>a rock into the pond and you're waiting to see

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<v Speaker 2>what ripples out. And if it doesn't go away, then

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<v Speaker 2>you go into the next stage, and that might be

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<v Speaker 2>going silent for a few days and hoping that the

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<v Speaker 2>media caravan moves on, and if it doesn't, then maybe

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<v Speaker 2>you need to stand up and you need to answer

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<v Speaker 2>every question. You need to make it clear that you're

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<v Speaker 2>not hiding from the media. I mean, in this case,

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<v Speaker 2>it feels like the government's tried pretty much everything and

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<v Speaker 2>still it is still it is going on.

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<v Speaker 1>She was criticized at first for being defensive. Was that

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<v Speaker 1>a misstep in your own opinion?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I think the government missed an opportunity. Really,

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<v Speaker 2>there was an opportunity to step in at the first

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<v Speaker 2>moment and say there is clearly a broader issue about

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<v Speaker 2>entitlements here, and we have a great deal of respect

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<v Speaker 2>for taxpayer money and we are going to ensure that

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<v Speaker 2>something is done about that. It's missed that chance. Now

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<v Speaker 2>it's very much on the back foot, and so anything

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<v Speaker 2>it does now will be in the defensive realm. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's worth remembering the context in which these things take place.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd a couple of contexts. First, I think it is

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<v Speaker 2>reasonable to say what politicians have a unique job. They

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<v Speaker 2>have a unique role with unique demands, and it is

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<v Speaker 2>reasonable that we make provisions for that. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that is especially true if we want to make sure

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<v Speaker 2>there is a diversity of people in the parliament. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>that is not an excuse that covers all sins, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think it is some sort of a reason for

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<v Speaker 2>entitlement somewhere. You need to remember as well that over

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<v Speaker 2>the years, various entitlements have been stripped back and that

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<v Speaker 2>has not always been a good thing. Public expectations are

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<v Speaker 2>not always the best guide to what is helpful. So

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<v Speaker 2>the best example of this is when Mark Latham essentially

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<v Speaker 2>politically cornered John Howard into stripping back the parliamentary pensions game.

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<v Speaker 2>What that has meant over time is that politicians don't

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<v Speaker 2>have that clear income to rely on after politics, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think that has two potential impacts. One is it

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<v Speaker 2>means we don't attract as high quality politicians into the Parliament,

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<v Speaker 2>or at least there's one less reason to attract them. Secondly,

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<v Speaker 2>it means that politicians towards the end of their time

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<v Speaker 2>in the Parliament are already almost inevitably looking to their

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<v Speaker 2>next chance. They're looking to that next job, and that

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<v Speaker 2>obviously creates a conflict of interest for any politician. I

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<v Speaker 2>think politicians need to work very hard to avoid that conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is because there was a feeling that politicians

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<v Speaker 2>were getting too much. But we end up we end

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<v Speaker 2>up hurting ourselves a little bit. I think sometimes with

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<v Speaker 2>these demands for politicians to strip everything.

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<v Speaker 1>Back, part of Wells's tactics was to actually change tact

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<v Speaker 1>and say that she was happy to have her expenses reviewed.

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<v Speaker 1>But news stories kept on coming and coming. Is this

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<v Speaker 1>faux outrage sean an opportunity to will out the say

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<v Speaker 1>called pub test as if anyone is actually talking about

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<v Speaker 1>this in a pub Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, it's such a range of things. I think there

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<v Speaker 2>really are a number of factors feeding into this. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's the end of the year. I'm sure that the

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<v Speaker 2>government would love it if something dramatics suddenly happened in

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<v Speaker 2>Trump's America, but it hasn't the last few days. So

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<v Speaker 2>the social media ban is really the big thing, and

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<v Speaker 2>ordinarily I think that would take all the attention, and

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<v Speaker 2>the government is obviously frustrated that it's not, except that

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<v Speaker 2>you have this awful coincidence for the government that the

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<v Speaker 2>minister under fire is the minister in charge of the

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<v Speaker 2>social media ban. So really that's just charged the story

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit more. I think you have another couple

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<v Speaker 2>of factors. One is that the government has been on

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<v Speaker 2>a pretty good wicket for a little while. The media

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<v Speaker 2>often works in cycles. I'm not saying that's a good thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just stating it for what it is. The liberals

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<v Speaker 2>have been making a heap of criticism and on utterly

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<v Speaker 2>justifiable grounds, over the last month. There's often a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a sense of, you know, wanting to go back

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<v Speaker 2>to focusing on the government and this is an opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>for the media to do that. And then I do

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<v Speaker 2>think there is a final factor, which is you do

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<v Speaker 2>often see women facing a different level of scrutiny. Annabel

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<v Speaker 2>Krab had a very good piece this week, not at

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<v Speaker 2>all saying that Anika Wells shouldn't be scrutinized, but saying,

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<v Speaker 2>let's look at the scrutiny that Barnaby Joyce has faced

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<v Speaker 2>over the years. Let's look at the number of things

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<v Speaker 2>he's got away with. This pub test seems to be

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<v Speaker 2>used slightly differently for men and women at times in

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<v Speaker 2>their political career, so it is not the only thing happening.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, much like Julia Gillard saying being a

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<v Speaker 2>woman explained some of her experience in politics and not

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<v Speaker 2>all of it, I think the double standard doesn't explain

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<v Speaker 2>everything that's going on here if the media does often

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<v Speaker 2>have a pre election for going after young.

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<v Speaker 1>Women coming up Anthony Albanzi's Howard moment. Surean, let's stop

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<v Speaker 1>doom scrolling for a second and talk about the social

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<v Speaker 1>media ban. How significant do you think this reform is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it has the potential to be enormously significant. Yesterday,

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<v Speaker 2>admittedly in a clear moment of frustration, Anthony Albanese said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this is a revolution.

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<v Speaker 3>What I'm focused on today today is an issue which

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<v Speaker 3>is a revolution. You'll be able to write a book

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<v Speaker 3>maybe on the period of the Labor government when you

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<v Speaker 3>look back and you look at what are the five

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<v Speaker 3>biggest things that we did, I'll tell you what this

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<v Speaker 3>will be one of them. And that's what makes me proud.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks very much. And that was striking language to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Because Anthony Albanezi often says I am a reformist, not

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<v Speaker 2>a revolutionary. He steers well clear of that type of language.

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<v Speaker 2>So he obviously really believes in this. He also wants

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<v Speaker 2>it to be noticed and believes it's very significant. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that he's right. It could end up being

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<v Speaker 2>very significant, in part because other countries are looking at

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<v Speaker 2>what Australia is doing and they are considering doing similar well.

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<v Speaker 2>Beginning today, kids under the age of sixteen in Australia

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<v Speaker 2>are being forced off social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's it.

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<v Speaker 2>So the worlds in terms of regulation of the big

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<v Speaker 2>tech companies and many governments are looking at how this

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<v Speaker 2>band is being enforced and what other countries are expected

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<v Speaker 2>to bring in their own regulations on social media in

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<v Speaker 2>the near futures, and I think that is because there

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<v Speaker 2>is a feeling that there is something wrong here the

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<v Speaker 2>dominance that social media has assumed in all of our lives,

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<v Speaker 2>frankly but certainly in the lives of young people. And

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<v Speaker 2>I suspect this won't be the last bit of action

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<v Speaker 2>we'll see, not necessarily in Australia but globally over the

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<v Speaker 2>next few years. I think there is beginning to be

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<v Speaker 2>a significant backlash, and I think that could interact in

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting ways with AI as AI becomes intervenes in

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<v Speaker 2>our lives. More so, I think this is a significant

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<v Speaker 2>pushback against the way that our lives have been heading

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<v Speaker 2>over the last few years, and I think it will

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<v Speaker 2>be a source of debate for some time to come.

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<v Speaker 1>Could this be Anthony Alberineese's gun reform moment in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of taking a league globally and therefore the coverage that

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<v Speaker 1>is receiving global continue to play it over a length

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<v Speaker 1>of time. Do you think the government's going to play

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<v Speaker 1>into that? Look?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. One of the difficulties that this government faces is

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<v Speaker 2>that so much of what they do is not memorable

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<v Speaker 2>that I think people would often struggle to name what

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<v Speaker 2>the government has done. I think this is something that

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<v Speaker 2>really will lodge itself in people's memories, and that is significant.

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<v Speaker 2>It means that even the negative stories, the stories about

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<v Speaker 2>teens managing to get through loopholes, are actually a positive

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<v Speaker 2>for the government. In the end, of course, they have

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<v Speaker 2>to deal with those problems. But in some ways, as

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<v Speaker 2>long as it's being talked about, it as a reminder

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<v Speaker 2>that the government is actually doing something. It's doing something

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<v Speaker 2>in an area in which lots of people want it

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<v Speaker 2>to do something. So in some ways it is an

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<v Speaker 2>answer to criticisms that people make of this government, the

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<v Speaker 2>criticisms that I've made of this government, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>that that really does have the potential in the way

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<v Speaker 2>that many things the government doesn't, to last and to

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<v Speaker 2>be remembered.

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<v Speaker 1>So, now the social media ban is in place, does

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<v Speaker 1>it just give kids more time to watch gabling ads

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<v Speaker 1>on Telly?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, look, I think you've pointed to exactly the question, Daniel.

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<v Speaker 2>The question is is this the beginning of a bolder

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<v Speaker 2>alban easy government or is it an anomaloust moment? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>is it the exception that proves the rule or is

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<v Speaker 2>it the beginning of something new. The gambling ads are

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<v Speaker 2>a really good test of that. Is the government going

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<v Speaker 2>to take stronger action on that, because one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things about the social media ban is that it is

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<v Speaker 2>leaning on a problem that many people already believe exists.

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<v Speaker 2>And there are already always two sides to advocacy. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to convince people that there is a problem, and

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<v Speaker 2>then you have to convince them that the solution you've

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<v Speaker 2>got is a good one. And here people already believe

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<v Speaker 2>there's a problem, so the government just has to make

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<v Speaker 2>the case for the solution. And I think you have

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<v Speaker 2>a similar thing with gambling ads. People already believe there

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<v Speaker 2>is a problem, and in fact, a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>already seem to believe that banning gambling ads is the solution.

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<v Speaker 2>So the government doesn't have to make much of a

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<v Speaker 2>case for it does have to take on corporate interests,

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<v Speaker 2>and that has historically been a problem for this government.

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<v Speaker 1>As you say, this band seems to be addressing some

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<v Speaker 1>wider issue in the community, some wider sense that something

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<v Speaker 1>isn't right. One of the other ways that government is

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<v Speaker 1>going to need to address that sense of disconnect, that

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<v Speaker 1>sense of disorientation that we have in the community at

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<v Speaker 1>the moment.

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<v Speaker 2>This is one of the things I write about in

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<v Speaker 2>my quarterly essay, which was just released a few weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 2>This gathering sense in society that we are not living

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<v Speaker 2>a good life and that things need to change. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think phones, atomization, loneliness, lack of community are a

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<v Speaker 2>really big part of that. But then there is another

0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.640
<v Speaker 2>side to that, which is inequality, and that ties to

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<v Speaker 2>social media in the sense that we are basically facing

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<v Speaker 2>off against a set of hugely powerful, multi billion dollar corporations.

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<v Speaker 2>We as a society are facing off against them, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think in a way that challenge is one for

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<v Speaker 2>governments and it's one for all of us, in the

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<v Speaker 2>sense that there is a chasm between people who have

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<v Speaker 2>assets and people who don't. There is a chasm between

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<v Speaker 2>individuals and the immense power that huge corporations now wield

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<v Speaker 2>in our society, and that power only seems to be

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<v Speaker 2>getting greater, and so I think governments need to start

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<v Speaker 2>stepping into that gap and taking on those fights. And

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<v Speaker 2>for me, the really significant question about the next year

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<v Speaker 2>is whether the government does something significant on inequality, and

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<v Speaker 2>in particular on housing. The government needs to step up

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<v Speaker 2>with a whole bunch of solutions, more than it has

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<v Speaker 2>currently put on the table, and to convince people that

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<v Speaker 2>it is taking housing seriously. I think this could be

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<v Speaker 2>an absolutely huge issue over the next year. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it could be a gathering point for frustration with the government.

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<v Speaker 2>And the other thing we know is that the coalition

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<v Speaker 2>or in the absence of the coalition, one nation, are

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<v Speaker 2>going to lean very heavily on this in the context

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<v Speaker 2>of migration, and I think that is going to create

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<v Speaker 2>huge problems potentially for society, potentially for the labor government,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I think the government needs to be thinking

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<v Speaker 2>now about ways to get in front of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well. It's going to be a very big year. This

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<v Speaker 1>year has been a big year, Seawan, Thank you so

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<v Speaker 1>much for joining us. Sam willed forward to speaking to

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<v Speaker 1>you again in the future.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me on.

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<v Speaker 1>Seven Am is a daily show from Solstice Media. It's

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<v Speaker 1>made by Atticus Basto, Ariel Richards, Chris Dngate, Ruby Jones,

0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:58.200
<v Speaker 1>Sarah mcveee, Travis Evans, Zoltan Veccho and me Daniel James.

0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.440
<v Speaker 1>Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan

0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.280
<v Speaker 1>of Envelope Poortier. Thanks for listening to seven am. Have

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<v Speaker 1>a great weakend