Speaker 1: We're at the Herald Sign offices on the banks of
Speaker 1: the Yarraw River. We've got the day off today because
Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson's trial is not sitting, but we've assembled the
Speaker 1: entire team for a special bonus episode. I'm Brooke Greebert Craig,
Speaker 1: I'm Laura Placella, and I'm Anthony Dowsley and this is
Speaker 1: the Mushroom Call. Welcome guys.
Speaker 2: Thanks. We're here back at the Herald and Weekly Times
Speaker 2: building in the city.
Speaker 3: It's almost strange to be recording this episode from the
Speaker 3: actual podcast studio in our office and not where we've
Speaker 3: been doing it ad and.
Speaker 1: More well, and the fact that I'm sitting down with
Speaker 1: both of you guys, I'm sure our listeners will really
Speaker 1: enjoy what's to come.
Speaker 3: Let's get underway.
Speaker 2: Bring the heat.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about why is there a day off
Speaker 1: in court today.
Speaker 3: I'll tackle this one. Late last week, the judge told
Speaker 3: the jury that they wouldn't actually be required to come
Speaker 3: in on Monday and listen to any evidence. He explained
Speaker 3: to them that there were some things happening in the
Speaker 3: background and the lawyers were going to take the day
Speaker 3: off to get up to speed. A few hours after
Speaker 3: he told them that the jury actually came back with
Speaker 3: a note for the judge and they had a few questions.
Speaker 3: One of them was are we going to have every
Speaker 3: Monday off? They wanted to know if moving forward, they
Speaker 3: would never need to come to court on Monday. But
Speaker 3: the judge did have to burst their bubble and explain
Speaker 3: to them that this was a one off and moving forward,
Speaker 3: the trial would be sitting on Mondays. For people that
Speaker 3: don't know, jurors get paid for jury service, so every
Speaker 3: day that they come in they get given an amount.
Speaker 3: And they also wanted to ask the judge are we
Speaker 3: going to get paid if we don't come in on
Speaker 3: Monday And he said he'd have to get back to
Speaker 3: them on that one.
Speaker 1: So that's essentially why we're at our office in the
Speaker 1: city today because the jury has a day off.
Speaker 2: Are we getting paid today?
Speaker 3: That's a good question.
Speaker 2: I feel sorry for the people at the coffee shop
Speaker 2: because they've been doing a roaring trade down and more
Speaker 2: well in the main street. It's called the Daily Cafe.
Speaker 3: We should give them a shout out.
Speaker 2: It's the Daily and the first day of the trial
Speaker 2: I remember walking there and it's because it's a country town.
Speaker 2: You had all of the defense lawyers sitting at one
Speaker 2: big table.
Speaker 3: Near the PowerPoint because they needed to charge their life
Speaker 3: charging up.
Speaker 2: You had the police sitting at a central table in
Speaker 2: the middle of the place, and then you had all
Speaker 2: the journals sort of milling around wondering can we talk
Speaker 2: to these people if we just watch or what are
Speaker 2: we going to do? No one approached anyone at the
Speaker 2: end of the day. Everyone stayed at their tables. And
Speaker 2: all that went through my mind is I didn't know
Speaker 2: where the prosecutors were, so I think they went around
Speaker 2: to a place called JD's around the corner. So I
Speaker 2: think that's been their little cubby hole since. So it's
Speaker 2: an interesting kind of field because everyone's sort of in
Speaker 2: court all day and you're healing all this evidence, and
Speaker 2: then you're sort of at lunch and you know, you're
Speaker 2: seeing all these familiar faces but just not and say hello.
Speaker 2: But that's about it.
Speaker 1: And does this happen at trials in Melbourne?
Speaker 3: Laura, Well, because trials in Melbourne are held at the
Speaker 3: Supreme Court in the middle of the CBD, there are
Speaker 3: so many places for people to go grab a bite,
Speaker 3: and some of the lawyers also go back to their
Speaker 3: chambers or their officers to spend the lunch break, so
Speaker 3: everyone's very dispersed, where like DAWs said in More Well,
Speaker 3: everyone's kind of flocking to the same venue. But early
Speaker 3: on in the trial, the jurors are actually told if
Speaker 3: they are out at lunch and they see anyone involved
Speaker 3: in the trial, whether it's a lawyer or a journalist
Speaker 3: or just someone they recognize from the courtroom, they shouldn't interact.
Speaker 3: And if that person doesn't interact with them, they really
Speaker 3: shouldn't be offended. Everyone's just making sure they're doing their job.
Speaker 1: And would you say that the media pack has thinned
Speaker 1: out now that we're going into week three.
Speaker 2: I've returned to Melbourne and we can watch it from
Speaker 2: down here on the video screens at the Supreme Court,
Speaker 2: so I've done that, and there were other journals there
Speaker 2: that were in More Well like Guy was for the
Speaker 2: first week. First week is always jam packed. You've got
Speaker 2: openings and you've got witnesses that you've been waiting to
Speaker 2: hear from, and then you know, as it goes on,
Speaker 2: the newspapers and the TVs tend to not go with
Speaker 2: it at the start of their bulletin or at the
Speaker 2: front page every single day and we all sort of
Speaker 2: come back towards the end of the trial in most cases.
Speaker 1: And how many journalists have been sitting at the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court in Melbourne.
Speaker 2: While I've been there, there was four or five six
Speaker 2: of us at least, and you can hear everything and
Speaker 2: see everything, but you can't look around the court. So
Speaker 2: there's a similar overflow room. We call them overflow rooms,
Speaker 2: so you're not in the court which has got a ballot.
Speaker 2: There's six of us allowed officially in, but there's more
Speaker 2: that do go in. So we're all sort of in
Speaker 2: the overflow rooms watching video screens and it leaves us
Speaker 2: a bit more free to talk to each other or
Speaker 2: if we don't understand a piece of evidence, we can
Speaker 2: turn to a colleague and say did you hear that?
Speaker 2: Would you write down? Or something like that.
Speaker 1: So the overflow room in Morewell has about fifteen journalists
Speaker 1: I say, sometimes a bit less. It really depends on
Speaker 1: the day, but it's very similar to the room in Melbourne.
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, it's a big room in Melbourne and it's
Speaker 2: just a big screen at one end and seats, I
Speaker 2: mean there's thirty forty seats in there. Don't. There's not
Speaker 2: that many. Gene, I was watching it from a Supreme
Speaker 2: Court in Melbourne. But you know, we're got someone sort
Speaker 2: of cheperining us as a court staff that's there and
Speaker 2: that we just watch and we write our notes just
Speaker 2: as we would when.
Speaker 1: We're in more well and Laura, you've been sitting in
Speaker 1: the actual courtroom most days, how's that been.
Speaker 3: There's been a few days where I've had one of
Speaker 3: those official seats in the courtroom. They're marked with a
Speaker 3: white piece of paper that says reserved for the media.
Speaker 3: But like we were saying, over the course of the
Speaker 3: second week, they were less journalists and also less interest
Speaker 3: from the public. So in the first week most seats
Speaker 3: in that courtroom were taken. But as the evidence starts
Speaker 3: to continue and the interest maybe wanes, more seats become available.
Speaker 3: So it's been quite easy to walk in and grab
Speaker 3: your seat to watch the proceedings.
Speaker 1: And have many members of the public been sitting in court.
Speaker 3: Yes, there's definitely been a few. Some will just come
Speaker 3: for one day. You've got to wonder if it's maybe
Speaker 3: just a day off for them, and they've thought to themselves, up,
Speaker 3: I'll just mosey on down to the La Trobe Valley
Speaker 3: Law courts and check out the trial. But for others,
Speaker 3: you're seeing the same sorts of faces, whether they're people
Speaker 3: from Aaron's life or people who knew the guests.
Speaker 1: So now Ian Wilkinson has been sitting in court most days.
Speaker 1: This is after he gave his evidence last week. Can
Speaker 1: you talk to us more about the dynamics between him
Speaker 1: and his family?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'll just flag that as soon as a
Speaker 3: witness is done giving evidence in a trial, they're welcome
Speaker 3: to stay in the courtroom and watch the proceedings, but
Speaker 3: until they've given evidence, they're actually not allowed to watch
Speaker 3: any of the trial because the court doesn't want their
Speaker 3: evidence to be tainted by what they've heard from previous witnesses.
Speaker 3: As you mentioned, Ian has been sitting in court observing
Speaker 3: the proceedings, and after giving evidence he's sat down in
Speaker 3: the courtroom and he's had relatives surrounding him.
Speaker 2: And there's a point because we've been talking about rubbing
Speaker 2: shoals with people down at the coffee shop. Well, in court,
Speaker 2: because there's media, there's family members, and there's members of
Speaker 2: the public. I was sitting next to someone who I
Speaker 2: don't even know, but I'm positive that they were a
Speaker 2: family member, and you almost feel a sense of guilt
Speaker 2: that you are typing away someone's evidence as they give it.
Speaker 2: And as you're tapping on your keys, I could feel
Speaker 2: the woman next to me begin to weep and I
Speaker 2: could see that, and you just feel like sort of
Speaker 2: maybe going and getting another seat, but you don't want
Speaker 2: to interrupt the court, so you just tap away as
Speaker 2: quiet as.
Speaker 3: You can, and the might there might not be another
Speaker 3: seat either.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the other thing as well. So you do
Speaker 2: feel yourself you know that you're in the middle of
Speaker 2: something that is real, and that is extremely sad because
Speaker 2: we are obviously talking about the deaths of three people
Speaker 2: and another person who almost died, who gave evidence, and
Speaker 2: you know it's not just something that you're only reporting on.
Speaker 2: You are becoming involved in something more important than anything
Speaker 2: going on in your own life.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think it's that timely a reminder that
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, three people have died
Speaker 1: and relatives are really still grieving their deaths.
Speaker 2: And part of this trial is dealing with a family that,
Speaker 2: as you just mentioned, Brooklyn, we are dealing with a
Speaker 2: family that's grieving a family where members of that family
Speaker 2: have to give evidence. We've heard evidence from Simon Patterson,
Speaker 2: Eron's husband. We've heard evidence from Ian Wilkinson, Simon's uncle.
Speaker 2: We've heard evidence from the children, Simon and Eron's children.
Speaker 2: So we are dealing with family ties and we are
Speaker 2: getting a picture in some ways of their relationship.
Speaker 3: As Brooke and I explored on one of the last
Speaker 3: podcast episodes when Aeron's children were giving evidence, and this
Speaker 3: was pre recorded evidence from a month after the lunch,
Speaker 3: So she's seeing younger versions of her children on the screen,
Speaker 3: and it was clear that from the she was becoming
Speaker 3: quite emotional. She reached for a tissue at one stage,
Speaker 3: and the mood in the courtroom definitely shifted, especially in
Speaker 3: the case of the evidence of her daughter. She was
Speaker 3: nine at the time, and you see this small little
Speaker 3: girl sitting on a blue armchair on the screen and
Speaker 3: she's being asked questions about essentially the circumstances surrounding the
Speaker 3: death of her grandparents, and she has to explain to
Speaker 3: the interviewer that she doesn't know too much about the
Speaker 3: lunch because she wasn't there, but he still has to
Speaker 3: ask her questions about what she remembers from before and
Speaker 3: what she remembers afterwards to help flesh out the case.
Speaker 2: So there is a theme of family ties running through
Speaker 2: this trial, and the family ties also extended to her
Speaker 2: son giving evidence. Being older, he's given a more considered
Speaker 2: answers in some ways as to the relationship between his parents.
Speaker 2: This is also we've heard evidence about the slow breakup
Speaker 2: of their parents. We've heard about money and money issues.
Speaker 2: We've also heard about the family ties with other members
Speaker 2: of the family, the brothers, the sisters, the uncle, the auntie.
Speaker 2: So we are in the middle of in many ways,
Speaker 2: a family kind of trial where they're all giving evidence
Speaker 2: or those that are called. There are people giving evidence
Speaker 2: about other family members. That's got to be hard.
Speaker 3: And while we don't know yet who will be giving
Speaker 3: evidence tomorrow, it's very clear though that the trial is
Speaker 3: about to shift into the more expert witnesses. At the
Speaker 3: start of the trial, the prosecution in their openings flagged
Speaker 3: that there would be evidence led from experts that specialize
Speaker 3: in phones, in mushrooms, in data, and we're starting to
Speaker 3: head towards that part of the trial.
Speaker 2: And in many ways, this is what you could almost
Speaker 2: call the dog days of a trial where it becomes
Speaker 2: you're dealing with scientific evidence, you're dealing with expert evidence
Speaker 2: about how things work, and that's when you get into
Speaker 2: really technical stuff. It's hard to listen to you sometimes
Speaker 2: because you know you're dealing with scientific or other expert evidence.
Speaker 2: So even from a storytelling point of view, it gets
Speaker 2: a bit harder as well.
Speaker 3: And we will try our hardest though to explain it
Speaker 3: all on our future episodes, but you might have to
Speaker 3: bear with us a little bit.
Speaker 1: Thanks too much, guys for joining me at the Herald
Speaker 1: Sun's office in the city.
Speaker 3: See you back and more. Well.
Speaker 2: As a rose between two thorns, no, actually, the thorn
Speaker 2: between two rows is the thorn between two roses. Thanks
Speaker 2: for having me.
Speaker 1: Thanks now, so to say. Up to date with all
Speaker 1: our latest coverage, go to the mushroomcook dot com dot
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