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Speaker 1: We're at the Herald Sign offices on the banks of

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Speaker 1: the Yarraw River. We've got the day off today because

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Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson's trial is not sitting, but we've assembled the

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Speaker 1: entire team for a special bonus episode. I'm Brooke Greebert Craig,

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Speaker 1: I'm Laura Placella, and I'm Anthony Dowsley and this is

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Speaker 1: the Mushroom Call. Welcome guys.

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Speaker 2: Thanks. We're here back at the Herald and Weekly Times

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Speaker 2: building in the city.

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Speaker 3: It's almost strange to be recording this episode from the

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Speaker 3: actual podcast studio in our office and not where we've

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Speaker 3: been doing it ad and.

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Speaker 1: More well, and the fact that I'm sitting down with

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Speaker 1: both of you guys, I'm sure our listeners will really

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Speaker 1: enjoy what's to come.

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Speaker 3: Let's get underway.

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Speaker 2: Bring the heat.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about why is there a day off

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Speaker 1: in court today.

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Speaker 3: I'll tackle this one. Late last week, the judge told

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Speaker 3: the jury that they wouldn't actually be required to come

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Speaker 3: in on Monday and listen to any evidence. He explained

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Speaker 3: to them that there were some things happening in the

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Speaker 3: background and the lawyers were going to take the day

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Speaker 3: off to get up to speed. A few hours after

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Speaker 3: he told them that the jury actually came back with

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Speaker 3: a note for the judge and they had a few questions.

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Speaker 3: One of them was are we going to have every

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Speaker 3: Monday off? They wanted to know if moving forward, they

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Speaker 3: would never need to come to court on Monday. But

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Speaker 3: the judge did have to burst their bubble and explain

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Speaker 3: to them that this was a one off and moving forward,

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Speaker 3: the trial would be sitting on Mondays. For people that

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Speaker 3: don't know, jurors get paid for jury service, so every

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Speaker 3: day that they come in they get given an amount.

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Speaker 3: And they also wanted to ask the judge are we

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Speaker 3: going to get paid if we don't come in on

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Speaker 3: Monday And he said he'd have to get back to

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Speaker 3: them on that one.

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Speaker 1: So that's essentially why we're at our office in the

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Speaker 1: city today because the jury has a day off.

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Speaker 2: Are we getting paid today?

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Speaker 3: That's a good question.

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Speaker 2: I feel sorry for the people at the coffee shop

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Speaker 2: because they've been doing a roaring trade down and more

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Speaker 2: well in the main street. It's called the Daily Cafe.

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Speaker 3: We should give them a shout out.

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Speaker 2: It's the Daily and the first day of the trial

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Speaker 2: I remember walking there and it's because it's a country town.

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Speaker 2: You had all of the defense lawyers sitting at one

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Speaker 2: big table.

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Speaker 3: Near the PowerPoint because they needed to charge their life

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Speaker 3: charging up.

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Speaker 2: You had the police sitting at a central table in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the place, and then you had all

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Speaker 2: the journals sort of milling around wondering can we talk

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Speaker 2: to these people if we just watch or what are

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Speaker 2: we going to do? No one approached anyone at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day. Everyone stayed at their tables. And

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Speaker 2: all that went through my mind is I didn't know

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Speaker 2: where the prosecutors were, so I think they went around

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Speaker 2: to a place called JD's around the corner. So I

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Speaker 2: think that's been their little cubby hole since. So it's

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Speaker 2: an interesting kind of field because everyone's sort of in

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Speaker 2: court all day and you're healing all this evidence, and

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Speaker 2: then you're sort of at lunch and you know, you're

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Speaker 2: seeing all these familiar faces but just not and say hello.

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Speaker 2: But that's about it.

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Speaker 1: And does this happen at trials in Melbourne?

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Speaker 3: Laura, Well, because trials in Melbourne are held at the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court in the middle of the CBD, there are

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Speaker 3: so many places for people to go grab a bite,

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Speaker 3: and some of the lawyers also go back to their

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Speaker 3: chambers or their officers to spend the lunch break, so

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Speaker 3: everyone's very dispersed, where like DAWs said in More Well,

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Speaker 3: everyone's kind of flocking to the same venue. But early

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Speaker 3: on in the trial, the jurors are actually told if

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Speaker 3: they are out at lunch and they see anyone involved

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Speaker 3: in the trial, whether it's a lawyer or a journalist

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Speaker 3: or just someone they recognize from the courtroom, they shouldn't interact.

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Speaker 3: And if that person doesn't interact with them, they really

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Speaker 3: shouldn't be offended. Everyone's just making sure they're doing their job.

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Speaker 1: And would you say that the media pack has thinned

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Speaker 1: out now that we're going into week three.

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Speaker 2: I've returned to Melbourne and we can watch it from

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Speaker 2: down here on the video screens at the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 2: so I've done that, and there were other journals there

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Speaker 2: that were in More Well like Guy was for the

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Speaker 2: first week. First week is always jam packed. You've got

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Speaker 2: openings and you've got witnesses that you've been waiting to

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Speaker 2: hear from, and then you know, as it goes on,

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Speaker 2: the newspapers and the TVs tend to not go with

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Speaker 2: it at the start of their bulletin or at the

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Speaker 2: front page every single day and we all sort of

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Speaker 2: come back towards the end of the trial in most cases.

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Speaker 1: And how many journalists have been sitting at the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court in Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: While I've been there, there was four or five six

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Speaker 2: of us at least, and you can hear everything and

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Speaker 2: see everything, but you can't look around the court. So

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Speaker 2: there's a similar overflow room. We call them overflow rooms,

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Speaker 2: so you're not in the court which has got a ballot.

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Speaker 2: There's six of us allowed officially in, but there's more

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Speaker 2: that do go in. So we're all sort of in

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Speaker 2: the overflow rooms watching video screens and it leaves us

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Speaker 2: a bit more free to talk to each other or

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Speaker 2: if we don't understand a piece of evidence, we can

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Speaker 2: turn to a colleague and say did you hear that?

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Speaker 2: Would you write down? Or something like that.

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Speaker 1: So the overflow room in Morewell has about fifteen journalists

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Speaker 1: I say, sometimes a bit less. It really depends on

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Speaker 1: the day, but it's very similar to the room in Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, it's a big room in Melbourne and it's

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Speaker 2: just a big screen at one end and seats, I

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Speaker 2: mean there's thirty forty seats in there. Don't. There's not

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Speaker 2: that many. Gene, I was watching it from a Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court in Melbourne. But you know, we're got someone sort

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Speaker 2: of cheperining us as a court staff that's there and

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Speaker 2: that we just watch and we write our notes just

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Speaker 2: as we would when.

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Speaker 1: We're in more well and Laura, you've been sitting in

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Speaker 1: the actual courtroom most days, how's that been.

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Speaker 3: There's been a few days where I've had one of

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Speaker 3: those official seats in the courtroom. They're marked with a

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Speaker 3: white piece of paper that says reserved for the media.

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Speaker 3: But like we were saying, over the course of the

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Speaker 3: second week, they were less journalists and also less interest

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Speaker 3: from the public. So in the first week most seats

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Speaker 3: in that courtroom were taken. But as the evidence starts

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Speaker 3: to continue and the interest maybe wanes, more seats become available.

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Speaker 3: So it's been quite easy to walk in and grab

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Speaker 3: your seat to watch the proceedings.

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Speaker 1: And have many members of the public been sitting in court.

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Speaker 3: Yes, there's definitely been a few. Some will just come

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Speaker 3: for one day. You've got to wonder if it's maybe

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Speaker 3: just a day off for them, and they've thought to themselves, up,

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Speaker 3: I'll just mosey on down to the La Trobe Valley

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Speaker 3: Law courts and check out the trial. But for others,

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Speaker 3: you're seeing the same sorts of faces, whether they're people

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Speaker 3: from Aaron's life or people who knew the guests.

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Speaker 1: So now Ian Wilkinson has been sitting in court most days.

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Speaker 1: This is after he gave his evidence last week. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk to us more about the dynamics between him

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Speaker 1: and his family?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'll just flag that as soon as a

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Speaker 3: witness is done giving evidence in a trial, they're welcome

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Speaker 3: to stay in the courtroom and watch the proceedings, but

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Speaker 3: until they've given evidence, they're actually not allowed to watch

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Speaker 3: any of the trial because the court doesn't want their

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Speaker 3: evidence to be tainted by what they've heard from previous witnesses.

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Speaker 3: As you mentioned, Ian has been sitting in court observing

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Speaker 3: the proceedings, and after giving evidence he's sat down in

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Speaker 3: the courtroom and he's had relatives surrounding him.

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Speaker 2: And there's a point because we've been talking about rubbing

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Speaker 2: shoals with people down at the coffee shop. Well, in court,

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Speaker 2: because there's media, there's family members, and there's members of

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Speaker 2: the public. I was sitting next to someone who I

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Speaker 2: don't even know, but I'm positive that they were a

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Speaker 2: family member, and you almost feel a sense of guilt

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Speaker 2: that you are typing away someone's evidence as they give it.

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Speaker 2: And as you're tapping on your keys, I could feel

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Speaker 2: the woman next to me begin to weep and I

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Speaker 2: could see that, and you just feel like sort of

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Speaker 2: maybe going and getting another seat, but you don't want

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Speaker 2: to interrupt the court, so you just tap away as

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Speaker 2: quiet as.

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Speaker 3: You can, and the might there might not be another

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Speaker 3: seat either.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the other thing as well. So you do

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Speaker 2: feel yourself you know that you're in the middle of

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Speaker 2: something that is real, and that is extremely sad because

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Speaker 2: we are obviously talking about the deaths of three people

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Speaker 2: and another person who almost died, who gave evidence, and

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Speaker 2: you know it's not just something that you're only reporting on.

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Speaker 2: You are becoming involved in something more important than anything

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Speaker 2: going on in your own life.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and I think it's that timely a reminder that

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, three people have died

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Speaker 1: and relatives are really still grieving their deaths.

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Speaker 2: And part of this trial is dealing with a family that,

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Speaker 2: as you just mentioned, Brooklyn, we are dealing with a

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Speaker 2: family that's grieving a family where members of that family

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Speaker 2: have to give evidence. We've heard evidence from Simon Patterson,

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Speaker 2: Eron's husband. We've heard evidence from Ian Wilkinson, Simon's uncle.

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Speaker 2: We've heard evidence from the children, Simon and Eron's children.

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Speaker 2: So we are dealing with family ties and we are

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Speaker 2: getting a picture in some ways of their relationship.

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Speaker 3: As Brooke and I explored on one of the last

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Speaker 3: podcast episodes when Aeron's children were giving evidence, and this

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Speaker 3: was pre recorded evidence from a month after the lunch,

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Speaker 3: So she's seeing younger versions of her children on the screen,

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Speaker 3: and it was clear that from the she was becoming

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Speaker 3: quite emotional. She reached for a tissue at one stage,

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Speaker 3: and the mood in the courtroom definitely shifted, especially in

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Speaker 3: the case of the evidence of her daughter. She was

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Speaker 3: nine at the time, and you see this small little

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Speaker 3: girl sitting on a blue armchair on the screen and

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Speaker 3: she's being asked questions about essentially the circumstances surrounding the

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Speaker 3: death of her grandparents, and she has to explain to

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Speaker 3: the interviewer that she doesn't know too much about the

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Speaker 3: lunch because she wasn't there, but he still has to

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Speaker 3: ask her questions about what she remembers from before and

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Speaker 3: what she remembers afterwards to help flesh out the case.

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Speaker 2: So there is a theme of family ties running through

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Speaker 2: this trial, and the family ties also extended to her

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Speaker 2: son giving evidence. Being older, he's given a more considered

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Speaker 2: answers in some ways as to the relationship between his parents.

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Speaker 2: This is also we've heard evidence about the slow breakup

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Speaker 2: of their parents. We've heard about money and money issues.

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Speaker 2: We've also heard about the family ties with other members

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Speaker 2: of the family, the brothers, the sisters, the uncle, the auntie.

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Speaker 2: So we are in the middle of in many ways,

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Speaker 2: a family kind of trial where they're all giving evidence

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Speaker 2: or those that are called. There are people giving evidence

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Speaker 2: about other family members. That's got to be hard.

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Speaker 3: And while we don't know yet who will be giving

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Speaker 3: evidence tomorrow, it's very clear though that the trial is

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Speaker 3: about to shift into the more expert witnesses. At the

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Speaker 3: start of the trial, the prosecution in their openings flagged

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Speaker 3: that there would be evidence led from experts that specialize

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Speaker 3: in phones, in mushrooms, in data, and we're starting to

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Speaker 3: head towards that part of the trial.

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Speaker 2: And in many ways, this is what you could almost

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Speaker 2: call the dog days of a trial where it becomes

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with scientific evidence, you're dealing with expert evidence

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Speaker 2: about how things work, and that's when you get into

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Speaker 2: really technical stuff. It's hard to listen to you sometimes

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Speaker 2: because you know you're dealing with scientific or other expert evidence.

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Speaker 2: So even from a storytelling point of view, it gets

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Speaker 2: a bit harder as well.

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Speaker 3: And we will try our hardest though to explain it

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Speaker 3: all on our future episodes, but you might have to

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Speaker 3: bear with us a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Thanks too much, guys for joining me at the Herald

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Speaker 1: Sun's office in the city.

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Speaker 3: See you back and more. Well.

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Speaker 2: As a rose between two thorns, no, actually, the thorn

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Speaker 2: between two rows is the thorn between two roses. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thanks now, so to say. Up to date with all

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Speaker 1: our latest coverage, go to the mushroomcook dot com dot

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Speaker 1: au