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Speaker 1: I'll get our team. Welcome to another installment of the

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Speaker 1: New Project. Craig Anthony Harper reporting in for Judy on

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Speaker 1: the as I Record, Wednesday, the seventh of bloody January.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be one thousand degrees in Melbourne. Forty

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Speaker 1: four degrees Celsius. Can you believe that, Professor Chris, can

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Speaker 1: you believe it's going to be forty four? Here? What's

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Speaker 1: the top over there? Today?

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Speaker 2: I think today we may have just scraped into the

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Speaker 2: one degree at one point. Oh, the coldest, the coldest

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Speaker 2: place in the country yesterday was minus twelve and a

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Speaker 2: half degrees, So we really are going through quite a

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Speaker 2: severe cold snap at the moment.

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Speaker 1: That is, that is that's beyond cold. So what do

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Speaker 1: you do when it's in that sub zero? Do you

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Speaker 1: just stay in? What do you do? It mustn't be

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Speaker 1: fun getting out in that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to take the dog out, you know,

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Speaker 2: just for a short we Fortunately, we've got a couple

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Speaker 2: of very nice coffee places within one hundred yards or so,

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Speaker 2: so so some days it's just a matter of making

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Speaker 2: it to there for an I sit down in a

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Speaker 2: coffee you know. But yeah, it's it really has been

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Speaker 2: it's been quite exceptional.

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Speaker 1: You know, how do you go in the cold? How

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Speaker 1: do you go in the cold? Does it affect you, like,

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Speaker 1: does it get you down? Does it affect you emotionally

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Speaker 1: or mentally?

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Speaker 2: We no, not hugely. I have to say, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's u I mean, as long as you can get

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Speaker 2: back inside and your house is reasonably warm, you know

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Speaker 2: at the moment, even though I mean in the room

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Speaker 2: I'm in, I've kind of tried to find a quiet

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Speaker 2: room to do this, and I've had the heating on

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Speaker 2: in here for the last hour or so before I

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Speaker 2: came in, but it's still pretty damn chilly in here.

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Speaker 2: But uh, you know, overall, it's not it's not a

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Speaker 2: big deal. You know, we're we're very We're very lucky

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Speaker 2: where we where we live, you know, compared to what's

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Speaker 2: happening in some of the parts of the world. You've

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Speaker 2: just got to kind of count your blessings.

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Speaker 1: That is absolutely true perspective context, it's all of it

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Speaker 1: all right now, I'm going to read I hate doing this,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just going to I tried to find something succinct.

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Speaker 1: You correct what I get wrong. Chris French is a

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Speaker 1: British psychologist and Professor Emeritus at Goldsmith's University of London,

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Speaker 1: where he founded the and Nomalistic Psychology Research Unity specializes

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Speaker 1: in the psychology of paranormal beliefs and anomalous experiences, why

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Speaker 1: people believe in ghosts, psychics, UFOs, astrology, and other weird

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Speaker 1: and wonderful claims. A former editor in chi chief of

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Speaker 1: the Skeptic magazine, Chris is a leading science communicator and

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Speaker 1: frequent media commentator known for taking extraordinary claims seriously while

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Speaker 1: explaining them through evidence based psychology. And he's my favorite

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Speaker 1: bit audience. This is why you know I got him on.

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Speaker 1: He's also the author of the Science of Weird Shit. Now,

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Speaker 1: did you come up with that title or somebody else?

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Speaker 2: I came Initially it was a joke. I was originally

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Speaker 2: going to call my book Why Weird Stuff Matters, which

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Speaker 2: I still think is quite a good title. But then

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Speaker 2: to a couple of friends, I just said, or I

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Speaker 2: might just call it the Science of Weird Shit, and

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Speaker 2: kind of almost with that exception, they said, oh, I'd

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Speaker 2: buy that. So I started toying with the idea of

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Speaker 2: actually using it as the title. Didn't know whether or

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Speaker 2: not the publishers would be would be up for that,

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Speaker 2: especially as I mean the book was published by m

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Speaker 2: T Press, so it's a respectable publisher. They were quite

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Speaker 2: happy with it. They were they were really on board.

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Speaker 2: I mean, in my mind, I'd always kind of imagine

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Speaker 2: the title as having an asterisk where the eye should

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Speaker 2: go in that final naughty word. No, no, no, they said, no,

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Speaker 2: we'll put an eye in there. Will be proud of

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Speaker 2: the title. So so that's what we went with. And

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Speaker 2: I think it's a it's kind of worked as a title.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you say you loved it. Some one or

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Speaker 2: two people didn't like it. I mean, in some cases

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Speaker 2: just because they don't like the use of edgy language,

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Speaker 2: and I think in other cases it might be that

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Speaker 2: it might give the impression. And I was a bit

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Speaker 2: worried about this that I was kind of being dismissive

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Speaker 2: and flippant about the kind of weird experiences that people

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Speaker 2: have and I'm not, you know, I take them seriously.

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Speaker 2: I want to try and explain them, trying to understand them.

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Speaker 2: But overall, I think it's probably it's probably helped in

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Speaker 2: terms of book sales rather than hindered.

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Speaker 1: So I totally agree I think science, ye people and

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Speaker 1: academic people don't always this. I'm putting an asterisk next

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Speaker 1: to this. Understand how to build rapport and connection and

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Speaker 1: trust with people who aren't academics, which is the majority

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Speaker 1: of the population. And so I'm always thinking, how do

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Speaker 1: I share what can be kind of complicated or you know,

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Speaker 1: quite nuanced or academic ideas or information in a way

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Speaker 1: which resonates with everyone and is understandable for everyone, so

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Speaker 1: that it's of value to everyone or potentially who listens.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I think that's we have a similar story.

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Speaker 1: I won't bore you, but I I've written seven books,

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Speaker 1: and I wrote a book called Stop Fucking Around. Wasn't

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Speaker 1: even going to be that, like you. That was the

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Speaker 1: working title because the concept was about we just waste

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Speaker 1: a lot of time and energy and you know, on bullshit.

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Speaker 1: And I did brief you before the show. I do

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Speaker 1: swear I should have done that, but anyway, and so

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Speaker 1: that was the working title, and all the people that

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Speaker 1: I gave it to to have a proofread and a

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Speaker 1: bit of a just a meander through, I said, by

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Speaker 1: the way, this is not the title, but it's kind

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Speaker 1: of the feel the vibe of the message right, stop

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Speaker 1: fucking around. Yet to come up with a title. Everyone

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Speaker 1: said make that the title, and I go, I can't

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Speaker 1: have a book called Now. This was pre all the

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Speaker 1: fuck books, like the Mark Manson there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: you know, the subtle art of not giving a fuck

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Speaker 1: and all that. So that was in twenty ten, sixteen

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Speaker 1: years ago. So and that one then got picked up

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Speaker 1: by Penguin, which obviously was a very big publisher in Australia,

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Speaker 1: number one or two and we want you to do

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Speaker 1: it basically part two or version two like the sequel.

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Speaker 1: And then I did that, and then they didn't want

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Speaker 1: to put that word in the title, so they came

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Speaker 1: up with another title, which was boring and a much

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Speaker 1: better book than the first one with the F on

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Speaker 1: the cover, and it undersold like it. It was outsold

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Speaker 1: by the book with fuck on the cover five to one.

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Speaker 2: And I speaks volumes, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, well I wrote both books, and I know

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Speaker 1: which one is a better book. But anyway, enough about that. Hey, So,

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Speaker 1: and when I'm interviewing people like you, who I feel

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Speaker 1: like you've probably done a million conversations and interviews, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to ask you all the same things, but

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Speaker 1: most of my audience are meeting you for the first time.

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Speaker 1: So I apologized for what might be repetitious, bloody questioning.

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Speaker 1: But so let's start with why the fascination with the

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Speaker 1: paran normal and all of those kind of weird and

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Speaker 1: wacky ideas that people sometimes embrace as absolute an equivocal

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Speaker 1: truth when they might not be or often add or

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Speaker 1: usually add.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean again in terms of my own interest.

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Speaker 2: I mean I used to be a believer in a

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Speaker 2: lot of this stuff, and talk kind of quite well

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Speaker 2: into early adulthood. Yeah, I had the kind of fascination

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Speaker 2: with this stuff. Most of the books and TV programs

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Speaker 2: that were around when I was growing up were very,

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Speaker 2: very uncritical, you know, they're very often quite sensationalistic. I

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Speaker 2: can see that now. I had a particular particular fascination

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Speaker 2: with the idea of kind of ancient astronauts, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Eric Ofvondanikan type stuff of those books, and kind

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Speaker 2: of very naively. I mean, I can see that now,

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Speaker 2: but at the time, obviously it didn't occur to me.

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Speaker 2: I thought it must all be true because it was

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Speaker 2: written in a book, you know, I just accepted it

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Speaker 2: at face value. I think by the time I kind

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Speaker 2: of did my first degree, and right the way through

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Speaker 2: doing that first degree in psychology, I still would have

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Speaker 2: probably come out as a believer on any scale to

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Speaker 2: measure believe in the paranormal. It wasn't until I was

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Speaker 2: doing my PhD that someone a friend recommended a particular

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Speaker 2: book called Parapsychology, Science or Magic, and it was by

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Speaker 2: a Canadian psychologist called James Orcock, and it was the

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Speaker 2: first skeptical treatment of all this stuff that I'd ever

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Speaker 2: come across. And it just kind of opened my eyes,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I realized that there were books out

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Speaker 2: there that took a skeptical perspective on this stuff. There

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Speaker 2: were even magazines like you know, The Skeptical Inquirer, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: they did. This whole new kind of world opened up

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Speaker 2: full of interesting people. And I don't know how much

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Speaker 2: you know about kind of organized skepticism, if we can

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Speaker 2: call it that, or people like James Randy and Ray

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Speaker 2: Heimon and various others who were into all of this

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Speaker 2: stuff but from a skeptical point of view. Yeah, I mean, basically,

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Speaker 2: I mean by the time I started at Goldsmith's, which

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Speaker 2: was back in nineteen eighty five. I was definitely a skeptic.

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Speaker 2: Did a couple of lectures on this stuff for the

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Speaker 2: students from a skeptical perspective this time. And whether you're

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Speaker 2: a believer or a skeptic, I think people like talking

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Speaker 2: about this stuff. That's my experience, you know. People will

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Speaker 2: talk about it down at the pub or over a

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Speaker 2: dinner party or wherever. And what started off as a

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Speaker 2: kind of hobbyer side interest eventually ended up being my

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Speaker 2: kind of main focus of research. I mean, I've condensed

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Speaker 2: a lot down there, you know, but actually we got

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Speaker 2: to a point where this, if I'm known for anything,

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Speaker 2: is known for doing this stuff. And it's been really

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Speaker 2: it's been a really interesting experience. You know. I've met

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Speaker 2: lots of interesting people, people who claim to have psychic powers.

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Speaker 2: I've got a lot of friends who are conjurers, you know,

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Speaker 2: just that whole world of what's real, how the deceptive

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Speaker 2: techniques that can be used. Are people who genuinely believe

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Speaker 2: in all this stuff, that really are convinced that they

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Speaker 2: have a gift. And it's just kind of fascinating to me.

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Speaker 2: On the one hand, there's the question of, well, could

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Speaker 2: any of this stuff be genuinely paranormal, and in my

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Speaker 2: own experience, I've not come across anything, despite having tested

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Speaker 2: lots and lots of psychic claimants, not come across any

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Speaker 2: evidence that any of it is real. But then that

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Speaker 2: raises the secondary question, why do so many people believe

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Speaker 2: in it? Why do so many people have these experiences

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Speaker 2: that they're convinced of paranormal and trying to get to

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Speaker 2: the bottom of the psychology behind it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so to me, it seems like people want to

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Speaker 1: believe in something. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is

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Speaker 1: just my guess, because obviously it must give them a

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Speaker 1: sense of comfort on some level to believe that, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's this thing that's kind of looking after me or

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Speaker 1: protecting me, or guiding me, or informing me or enlightening me,

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Speaker 1: so I've got some kind of advantage or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: or some kind of protection. And also, I think when

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Speaker 1: you believe something that you can't prove, which I guess

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Speaker 1: is called faith, you know, then you have an emotional

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Speaker 1: and personal interest in that being true, which pretty much

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Speaker 1: cancels the possibility of object absolute objectivity. You know. It's

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Speaker 1: like when you desperately want something to be true, you're emotional,

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Speaker 1: you're not logical, you're not using your prefrontal cortex a

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Speaker 1: whole lot.

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Speaker 2: That's right, I mean, Having said I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: you're absolutely right in what you've said. Having said that,

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Speaker 2: I think the kind of absolute objectivity is something that

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Speaker 2: you lose all of us. You know, some of us

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Speaker 2: try harder, some of us us actually kind of pay

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Speaker 2: more attention to evidence and kind of rational critical thinking

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Speaker 2: to try to come to our conclusions and so on.

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Speaker 2: But even those of us who would self identify as

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Speaker 2: skeptics and rationalists and all this, we've also still got

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Speaker 2: our biases because they're they're wired in basically, they're a

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Speaker 2: product of our evolutionary history. But you know, as I say,

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Speaker 2: I would certainly recommend that, certainly, for making really important

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Speaker 2: decisions in your life, you should err towards the side

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Speaker 2: of trying to be as rational and cool and unemotional

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Speaker 2: about making those decisions as you can be, whilst acknowledging

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Speaker 2: that fundamentally we've all got an irrational side, and we

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Speaker 2: can enjoy that, you know. I mean, I like kind

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Speaker 2: of like kind of like science fiction. I like surrealism,

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Speaker 2: I like the kind of absurd side of creativity. You know,

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Speaker 2: and comedy, you know, all that sort of stuff. Celebrate it.

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Speaker 2: But when it comes down to making important decisions and

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Speaker 2: trying to do our best to get to the closest

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Speaker 2: approximation we can about the truth about the way things are,

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Speaker 2: then I think we should rely on that more rational,

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Speaker 2: non emotional side to the extent that we can.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess all of us have got pre existing

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Speaker 1: ideas and values and beliefs and programming and conditioning, and

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Speaker 1: that's kind of the window through which we view and

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Speaker 1: process the world. Right. It's like I always look through

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Speaker 1: the Craig window, which clearly is just the Craig window.

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Speaker 1: It's not the Chris window. It's you know, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm not seeing you know, I'm not seeing the thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing my version of the thing, whatever that means,

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Speaker 1: you know. But I think sometimes we misinterpret or we

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Speaker 1: can't justin the objective reality of what's happening compared with

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Speaker 1: our subjective story. It's like, well, no, I was there. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: he is offensive. He's offensive, absolutely, And the next person's like, no,

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Speaker 1: he's not. He's funny, And the next persons no, he's not.

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Speaker 1: He's actually quite clever. And it's you know, I probably

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Speaker 1: like you where some people go, hey, Chris, I fucking

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Speaker 1: love the title of your book. That is so good,

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Speaker 1: it's so clever. If it wasn't for that title, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have picked it up. I picked it up, I

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Speaker 1: read it, thank you for writing it, and other people

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Speaker 1: like well, I would never look at that because clearly

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Speaker 1: it's whatever. It's same stimulus, different response, right exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's one of the really interesting things

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Speaker 2: about this area that I mean, which I refer to

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Speaker 2: as anomalistic psychology, the psychology of anomalist experiences, that very

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Speaker 2: often you are dealing with a situation where clearly people

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Speaker 2: are reading their own meaning into things. I mean. And again,

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons we're so successful as a species

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Speaker 2: is that we are so good at picking up on

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Speaker 2: meaningful patterns and finding significant connections and so on and

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Speaker 2: so forth. Problem is that sometimes we overplay it, and

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Speaker 2: we think we're seeing meaning and significance when really we're

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Speaker 2: looking at randomness, you know. And that's the root of

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Speaker 2: a lot of paranormal beliefs. It's also the root of

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Speaker 2: a lot of conspiracy beliefs, you know, where people are

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Speaker 2: kind of joining the dots, where really those jots that

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Speaker 2: those dots don't have any real connection. We've just we've

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Speaker 2: just read into it. We've seen something there. And that's

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Speaker 2: that's the kind of theme that crops up again and

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Speaker 2: again within anomalistic psychology.

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Speaker 1: What's what's in the you know, when we talk about

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Speaker 1: the science of weird shit, what's near the top of

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Speaker 1: the leaderboard, in the home in on the on the scorecard.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to like what's in maybe your top one, two,

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Speaker 1: three of things that you've kind of dealt.

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Speaker 2: With quite interesting, I mean when you ask that question,

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Speaker 2: because obviously you can think about kind of answering it

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Speaker 2: in different ways. I mean, I've written, previous to writing

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Speaker 2: this book, which is very much kind of aimed a

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Speaker 2: general readership, I co wrote a textbook on a normalistic psychology,

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Speaker 2: And of course, when you faced with doing these tasks,

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Speaker 2: you've got to, okay, is how are we going to

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Speaker 2: divide the area up? You know, how are we going

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Speaker 2: to kind of just deal with it? How were going

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Speaker 2: to cover things? One way to cover it? Which is

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Speaker 2: something that was done in a book many years ago

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Speaker 2: with the same title, A Normalistic Psychology, but not by us,

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Speaker 2: by a couple of guys called Disney and Jones. They

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Speaker 2: took the approach of taking different psychological processes, so having

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Speaker 2: a chapter, say, on perception, and a chapter on memory,

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Speaker 2: and a chapter on whatever, and see how that kind

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Speaker 2: of applied to explaining the kind of stuff that we're

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Speaker 2: interested in. The approach that we took for our co

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Speaker 2: authored textbook, we took each of the sub different subdisciplines

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Speaker 2: of psychology and said what light do they cast on

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Speaker 2: the kind of issues we're interested in. So if you

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Speaker 2: sort of think about it, you know, developmental psychology, what

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Speaker 2: you know? What? What what do kids believe about magic

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Speaker 2: and about paranormal claims and so on, and and how

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Speaker 2: does that develop over the years. Neuropsychology, what's happening in

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Speaker 2: the brain when people have weird experiences? Social psychology, cognitive psychology,

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Speaker 2: all of these different subdisciplines have different perspectives and different

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Speaker 2: interesting things to say about weird shit. For the for

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Speaker 2: the for the book, for the Science of wordship book,

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Speaker 2: I took the approach of just dealing with different paranormal topics.

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Speaker 2: So there's kind of there's chapters a couple of chapters

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Speaker 2: there on kind of ghosts. There's a chapter on reincarnation.

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Speaker 2: There's chapters on precognition, et cetera, et cetera. I think,

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Speaker 2: I mean, one thing, one of the kind of messages

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Speaker 2: that I wanted to get across is that, as I've said,

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Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned, we've all got these kind

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Speaker 2: of biases, We've still got them in there's a huge

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Speaker 2: chapter on There's a lot there's a lot of cognitive

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Speaker 2: biases within the book. These are kind of things that

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Speaker 2: are kind of wired in that underlie a lot of

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Speaker 2: these things. And one of my kind of main interests.

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Speaker 2: I'd say over recent years, most of the actual kind

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Speaker 2: of research papers that were published tended to be about

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Speaker 2: either false memories in one way or another. That's one

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Speaker 2: of my favorite topics, sleep paralysis, which is a fascinating topic,

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Speaker 2: or belief in conspiracy theories. That that that's kind of

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Speaker 2: most of the kind of output that we've produced. Even

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Speaker 2: though I'm interested in a wider range of things than that,

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Speaker 2: that's where the actual published research papers were. So those

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Speaker 2: three topics have got, you know, are all close to

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Speaker 2: my heart. In terms of within parapsychology, I would say

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Speaker 2: that there are some areas of research that are more

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Speaker 2: challenging for skeptics to explain away than others. So you know,

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Speaker 2: in my head, there are some There are some things

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Speaker 2: areas within parapsychology or within the world of the paranormal

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Speaker 2: that I think we we can definitely kind of explain,

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Speaker 2: you know, we don't. We don't need to look any further.

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Speaker 2: But there are some areas, and I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of skeptics are not aware of that. They think it's

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Speaker 2: all easy to explain away. There are some areas where

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Speaker 2: some of the evidence is a bigger challenge to skeptics

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Speaker 2: to come up with kind of convincing explanations, particularly some

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Speaker 2: of the work on telepathy using a technique known as

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Speaker 2: the Gansfeldt technique, where you have a receiver and a

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Speaker 2: sender in two different rooms, and the sender tries to

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Speaker 2: transmit information telepathically to the receiver. The receiver is in

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Speaker 2: a situation where of kind of sensory deprivation, and some

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Speaker 2: of the evidence from those kind of studies is it

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Speaker 2: certainly interesting striking. Some of the research on reincarnation claims

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Speaker 2: past apparent past life memories in children and so on. Again,

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Speaker 2: I'm not convinced otherwise. I wouldn't be a skeptic. Still, obviously,

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Speaker 2: I think that some of that evidence that's produced is

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Speaker 2: kind of is really quite intriguing, and I'm not one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent sure that I know. I think it's best

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Speaker 2: explained in terms of false memories, but I don't know.

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Speaker 2: So there I say, there are some areas like that.

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Speaker 2: I remember many years back reading Carl Sagan's book, and

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Speaker 2: I was, as it happened, I was reading it while

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Speaker 2: I was making a documentary, while I was taking part

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Speaker 2: in a documentary about reincarnation amongst the Druze people in Lebanon,

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Speaker 2: and actually he was reading this in my lighting on

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Speaker 2: my bed in my hotel room, reading this, and Sagan

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Speaker 2: kind of mentioned three areas that he said, but essentially

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Speaker 2: the same as I just said, I don't kind of

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Speaker 2: believe that these things are real, but I think they're

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Speaker 2: really intriguing and they just might be true. And one

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Speaker 2: of them was past life memories in children. Another was

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Speaker 2: referring to the Gansvelt type stuff, and another was referring

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Speaker 2: to the idea that maybe just by willpower, people could

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Speaker 2: influence the kind of random number generators in a very

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Speaker 2: very tiny way, but that they could they could influence

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Speaker 2: the output, you know, and I would tend to agree

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Speaker 2: with that. I think they're still quite challenging areas.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever? I love all of that, Thank you

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Speaker 1: so many questions. I'm one of my areas of curiosity

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Speaker 1: is plus ebos and no cibos, right, plus place ebo

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Speaker 1: is because so I spent my first couple of decades

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Speaker 1: of my working life working with teams and athletes and

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Speaker 1: the general public trying to help people get fit, strong, healthy, functional,

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Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. And so many times where

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Speaker 1: you know, people would we'd be talking about health, somebody

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Speaker 1: would take something that was essentially you know, inert and

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Speaker 1: they would get some like that'd take some supplement that's

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Speaker 1: essentially bullshit. We found out later, you know, since the

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Speaker 1: early eighties when I started working, and probably you too,

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Speaker 1: so many supplements and sporting this and nutritional so many

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Speaker 1: of them are essentially nothing, but people believe there's something

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Speaker 1: and they actually start to get some results, like not

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Speaker 1: imagined results, real results in a life you're that's not

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Speaker 1: creating the result you are, and it's hard to prove,

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Speaker 1: but that whole kind of you know, I've had a

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Speaker 1: guy called Professor Jeffrey Rettiger on a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: Who's from Harvard Medical School. He's a doctor and a

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Speaker 1: psychiatrist and a researcher. And his well, last time I

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Speaker 1: spoke to him, which was two years ago, his entire

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Speaker 1: focus was on around place ebos and people who had

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Speaker 1: literally stage four cancer who got better big for whatever reason. Right,

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Speaker 1: But have you ever opened that door or thought about

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Speaker 1: that stuff?

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Speaker 2: Well? Yeah I did. I wrote a review chapter on placebos.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

403
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Speaker 2: The book was published in two thousand and one, so

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Speaker 2: it was a long time ago now, and I confess

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Speaker 2: that I haven't really kept up with the research kind

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Speaker 2: of since then. I kind of read around it a

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Speaker 2: lot while I was writing that chapter.

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Speaker 1: I believe that was Can you believe that was quarter

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Speaker 1: of a century ago?

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Speaker 2: Prop? I don't remind me. Yeah, I mean where did

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Speaker 2: the time go? You know? But anyway, Yeah, I was

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Speaker 2: kind of invited to contribute a chapter to an edited book,

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Speaker 2: and one of the topics that was interesting and obviously

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Speaker 2: was placebo effects. I mean, placebo effects are kind of

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Speaker 2: a beloved by most skeptics. You know, why is it

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Speaker 2: that some worthless forms of complementary and alternative therapy seemed

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Speaker 2: to produce positive results, even often albeit subjectively. But what

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Speaker 2: was the explanation, Oh, it's a placebo effect. Now, So

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Speaker 2: I expected, I thought, well, great, I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: a deep dive into that literature, and I expected to

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Speaker 2: find lots of evidence, good strong scientific evidence to support big,

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Speaker 2: strong placebo effects. And actually I was a little bit

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Speaker 2: more than a little bit. I was quite disappointed because

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Speaker 2: when I actually did that deep dive, I realized that

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Speaker 2: a lot of the most superficially impressive evidence was anecdotal.

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Speaker 2: It was coming from people who were saying that, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean the paper on the powerful placebo by Beacher

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Speaker 2: from nineteen fifty five. A lot of the stuff in

429
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: there is it's actually there's a lot wrong with that paper,

430
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: which I wasn't aware of until like I kind of,

431
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: you know, started reading around and realized that people have

432
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: been critiquing it and so on, and I got to

433
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 2: a point where I was wondering, is there really such

434
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 2: a thing as the placebo effect at all? I mean,

435
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 2: there's a lot of kind of muddle and confusion and

436
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 2: misconceptions and so on, and love a lot of problems

437
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: related to the terminology that she used and so on.

438
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: But once you kind of cleared all that away. I

439
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 2: was being thing, is there anything really here at all?

440
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: And a paper came out. I can't remember who was by.

441
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 2: There was a couple of Norwegian researchers and I think

442
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: it was somewhere like, I don't know, the Journal of

443
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: the American Medical Association somewhere. I was there a certainly

444
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 2: a respectable publication basically saying is there such a thing

445
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 2: as the placebo effect? Which was very much along the

446
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: lines that I was thinking at the time. Now I

447
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: got to a point where I thought there was some

448
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: evidence that there really was a placebo effect. It really

449
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: was convincing a part from all the other stuff. I

450
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: do have a friend who is really into this stuff,

451
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 2: who is convinced that the placebo effects it doesn't exist.

452
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: Now I don't know if he's right or not, because,

453
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: as I say, I've not kept up with the literature

454
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 2: over the years, and you know, I certainly I mean,

455
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 2: I don't know whether you're familiar with Edzard Earnst. He's

456
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: like he was a professor of the first professor of

457
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: complimentary medicine in the UK, very very you know, massive

458
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: publication list. I've got a lot of time for Edzard.

459
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: He's a strong believer in the placebo effect, you know,

460
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: So on the one and I've got this, I've got

461
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 2: this friend who's kind of convinced it doesn't exist. I've

462
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: got another friend who is convinced it is real and

463
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: it can be powerful, And I basically I don't know.

464
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: I think that you can certainly get situations like that

465
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: where people are using, as you say, particularly in the

466
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 2: world of kind of sports sports science, where people will

467
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: try something and subjectively it has it has an impact

468
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: on them. And then obviously there's all kinds of other

469
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: possibilities with respect to what might underlie those kind of

470
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 2: placebo effects. Is it just that it's given that person

471
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 2: that little bit more confidence that they lacked and made

472
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: them and that's improved their performance, or you know, whatever

473
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: else it might be. But yeah, I do find it

474
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 2: a fascinating area, and I do still kind of find

475
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: myself referring to placebo effects and some of the stuff.

476
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, it depends on how

477
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: you how you define it. I mean, I've some of

478
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 2: the papers, some of the work that we've done is is, Yeah,

479
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: it's certainly on the looking at the effects of the

480
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 2: power of suggestion, and really what is that CBO effect?

481
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: You know? If you I'll give you an example one

482
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 2: Once we did a couple of studies and unfortunately I

483
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 2: never got around to publishing them in a properly referee journal,

484
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: even though we you know, the research had been well received.

485
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: I was just always I was just too busy at

486
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 2: the time, you know, And now I think the kind

487
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: of time has passed. We were looking at claims about

488
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: crystal power, crystal energy, right, all this stuff from the

489
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: New Age area, and basically what we did we gave

490
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: people crystals to hold, and we told them that, you know,

491
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: there's this notion that crystals kind of have this energy,

492
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 2: this kind of healing energy, and that sometimes you can

493
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: actually feel it while you're holding the crystal. Just relax,

494
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: hold the crystal and you might feel things like warmth

495
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: or tingling or vibrations or whatever, you know. And we

496
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: just got people to kind of hold these crystals for

497
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: ten minutes or so then fill in a questionnaire about

498
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: did they did they experience any of those things? And

499
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: lots of them did so that was quite interesting, but

500
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: kind of what was more interesting was that half of

501
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: the people were given the genuine quartz crystal, and half

502
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: were given a very realistic looking fake. Well, it didn't

503
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: make any difference, not the real one, all the fake.

504
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: They still reported those kind of sensations, you know. So

505
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: I would describe it as a placebo effects, you know.

506
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: So so yeah, but again I suppose it depends at

507
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: the end of the day, how you're going to how

508
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: you're going to define it, and then secondarily, how would

509
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: you explain it. You know, I think.

510
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: About people like, for example, if you're in a situation

511
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: and you're in a room, for example, and in that

512
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: room you're safe, You're totally safe, there's no threat, there's

513
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: no immediate danger. But in that room you think you

514
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: are in danger, which is a story, but it's not

515
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: a truth. Like you're safe, there's no immediate threat at all,

516
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: nothing bad is going to happen, but somebody thinks something

517
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: bad is going to happen. Well, that's a belief, that's

518
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: an idea, that's thinking. Then there's the emotion wrapped around that,

519
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: which is potentially you know, like fear or even anger

520
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: or whatever. And then there's the physiological flow on of

521
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: elevated heart rate, breathing, adrenaline, cortisol, blood pressure, respiration, sympathetic

522
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: nervous system. And so we see this cascade of physiology

523
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: as a response of a thought, and the physiological response

524
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: is built around a lie, not a truth. But the

525
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: physiology is real, although the idea is not. So definitely,

526
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: our mind can influence our body, you know, So I

527
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 1: wonder like because we see the body responding because our

528
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: body can't tell the difference between a perceived threat based

529
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: on a lie and an actual threat, it will respond

530
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: the same because it can't differentiate.

531
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: So that that stuff interests me. Now all the kind

532
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: of the not so called noss ebo effects, you know,

533
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: the kind of where you get some kind of negative

534
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: consequence of having those kind of beliefs. I mean, one

535
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: of my one of my favorite examples of that will

536
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: take me a little while to unpack this and explain it,

537
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: but not my favorite. Okay, one of my favorite examples

538
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:24,239
Speaker 2: of that relates to the topic of sleep paralysis. Are

539
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: you familiar with sleep paralysis? Craige, you know what that is.

540
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: A little bit? Can you just unpack it for USh?

541
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm saying a lot of the readers,

542
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: so the listeners might not know what it is sleep paralysis. Basically,

543
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: in its most basic form, it's fairly common experience. It's

544
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 2: when you're half awake and half asleep and you realize

545
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: that you can't move. Yes, so it typically if that's

546
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: all you get, then that lasts. It kind of typically

547
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: last a few seconds. You snap out of it. You

548
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: probably think that was a bit weird, but it's not

549
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: really a big deal. You get on with your day.

550
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: But it can have other symptoms associated with it can

551
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: make it absolutely terrifying. So, for example, people often report

552
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: that they get a very very strong sense of presence.

553
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: They feel as if there's someone or something in the

554
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: room with them and it has evil intention towards them.

555
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: But even when they can't see or hear anything, but

556
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: sometimes you will actually see and hear stuff. They'll hallucinate.

557
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: They might hear voices or footsteps or mechanical sounds or whatever.

558
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: They might see lights moving around the room, or dark

559
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: shadows or monstrous figs, demons, in fact, anything that your

560
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: imagination can dream up, you can actually see during one

561
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: of these episodes. And although I would say it's a

562
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: hallucinator experience, in broad terms, we kind of understand what's

563
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: causing it. It's a kind of glitch in the normal

564
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: sleep cycle. But then as I say that, I get

565
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: sent lots of first hand accounts of sleep paralysis, which

566
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: I always find absolutely fascinating because when it's happening, it

567
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: feels real, and it can be absolutely even for people

568
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: who know, yeah, it's this thing called sleep paralysis. When

569
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: I'm awake, I know it's not real. But when it's happening,

570
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: my god, it's terry buying, you know, yes, But so

571
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: that's that's just what sleep paralysis is in general. One

572
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: of the really interesting kind of episodes within the world

573
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: of sleep paralysis relates to something called sudden unexplained nocturnal

574
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: death syndrome. One of the one of the big messages

575
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: that I'm always trying to push when I'm talking about

576
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: sleep paralysis, because obviously a lot of people, particularly if

577
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: you've got a religious background or if you believe in ghosts,

578
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: they think it's a it really is a ghost, it

579
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: really is a demon, whatever else it may be. I'm

580
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,479
Speaker 2: trying to say, no, it's not that you don't need

581
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: to panic about that. You also don't need to panic

582
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: that you're going crazy, whatever that might mean. It's this

583
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: thing called sleep paralysis, and it's quite common, but it's

584
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: essentially harmless. So I'm trying to push this idea that

585
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: it is essentially harmless, and it kind of somewhat undermines

586
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 2: that message when you kind of say, oh, but occasionally

587
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 2: it can kill you. So this is one explanation that

588
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 2: was put forward for this thing called the outbreak of

589
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 2: sudden unexplained nocturnal death syndrome. This was happening in the

590
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 2: States back in the seventies where refugees from Cambodia were

591
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: coming over to the States to settle and there seemed

592
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: to be this particular spate of unexplained deaths amongst usually

593
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: the male head of the family. And they did all

594
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,959
Speaker 2: kinds of tests to see what it might be. Toxicology tests,

595
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: look at cardiac with all that kind of stuff. They

596
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: couldn't figure out what it might be. It looks like

597
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: what it might have been is just a particular constellation

598
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: of factors. They found a minor cardiac abnormal, which normally

599
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 2: on its own wouldn't be enough to kill someone, but

600
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: these people often seem to have it. They also had

601
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: histories of sleep paralysis. Now, when they experienced sleep paralysis

602
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: back in Cambodia, they had a way of dealing with it.

603
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 2: They'd go to the kind of local shaman and he'd

604
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: maybe perform a ritual or whatever, and that would kind

605
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: of put their mind at ease. But within their belief system,

606
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: they believe that when you sleep, you are vulnerable to

607
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 2: attack by spirits, and if you get attacked too many times,

608
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: they can actually kill you. And the reason that it

609
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: was the male head of the household is that again,

610
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: back in Cambodia, they were the spiritual guardians of the family.

611
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: You know, there was very patriarchal. Now they'd come over

612
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: to this new country where the male head of the

613
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 2: family basically felt completely powerless. The kids were learning how

614
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: to speak English, you know, integrating and so on, they

615
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: weren't they didn't have their usual remedy to go to,

616
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: and so it was this constellation of this prior belief

617
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 2: in the tendency that some of them have for sleep paralysis.

618
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: The belief system and the minor cardiac abnormality combined was enough.

619
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: So they were they were kind of literally dying of

620
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: fear in their sleep. They were having the you know

621
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: in the film A Nightmare on Elm Street. That was

622
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 2: that was directly inspired by this outbreak of sudden unexplained

623
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: maternal death syndrome. And it's that notion that when you're asleep,

624
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: you're vulnerable. You might be attacked by these spirits that

625
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: are out there. And I would say that, I would say, like, like,

626
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: as you said earlier, you know that belief itself is false,

627
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: but it can be enough to have a really powerful effects.

628
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, Like the consequences are real, even though

629
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: the stories perhaps not. It's what growing up. I'm sure

630
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: that when you were growing up you believed or maybe

631
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: maybe you didn't, but you would have had certain beliefs

632
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: or certain ideas or that you maybe did a one

633
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: ad on Like what's something that you used to believe

634
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 1: or hope was true that, disappointingly or not, you discovered wasn't.

635
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: Like I grew up in I grew up in a

636
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: very religious household, just to give you context, So I

637
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: was programmed indoctrinated from when I could rationalize anything. So

638
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: that that was I grew up in a very religious paradigm.

639
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: And then you become a byproduct of you know that,

640
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: what about you? Was there something that you did? Well?

641
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was probably the way around. It was something

642
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: that I was probably quite glad to do it on it.

643
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: When I was a kid, I was absolutely petrified of ghosts,

644
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 2: hoverified of them. You know. I needed a night light

645
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 2: for a lot longer than most kids. I did not

646
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: like sleeping on my own in the dir, I really didn't.

647
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: It just terrified me.

648
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: So once you hit thirty, wife said you to get

649
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: rid of that. It was.

650
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: I kind of thought more or less grown out of

651
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: it in teenage years, but I was taught into going

652
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: to see the film The Exaucist, and it really reawakened

653
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: all of those childhood fears in me. It was a

654
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: really peculiar experience. I really for about another you know,

655
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 2: for a few weeks afterwards, I found it really difficult

656
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: to well just to sleep without a light on for

657
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 2: a while. You know. Well since then, I mean, as

658
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: part of my sometimes not so illustrious career, I've taken

659
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: part in some really really dreadful TV programs investigating haunted

660
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: houses and that kind of thing. And I've been kind

661
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: of locked in allegedly haunted basements and attics with you know,

662
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 2: lights out, just the night camera and so on. Now

663
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: I would have kind of thought that that might be

664
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: enough to at least produce a shiver down the spine,

665
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: evening a skeptic like me. Now it's about as exciting

666
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: as watching paint dry, you know. And yet other people

667
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: in that same context totally freaked out, you know, And

668
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: again it's all the power of your own beliefs, if

669
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 2: you Another example was a friend of mine, Professor Richard Wiseman.

670
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: He's done some really interesting research where they've recreated seances.

671
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: He was totally just using trickery, you know, but they'll

672
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: produce these effects. And I'd always wanted to sit in

673
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: on one of Richard's seances, and I've got the chance

674
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: to do that with my wife and a couple of friends.

675
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: And I hope Richard's not listening now, because when we

676
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 2: came out out of the saalance, I kind of thought

677
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: was that it was not I really really didn't frighten

678
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 2: me at all, really kind of you know, no tingles

679
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: down the spine or anything. But there are other people

680
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 2: who be in the same rumors us for the same experience,

681
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: who were coming out and saying, oh my god.

682
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: That was amazing.

683
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 2: Did you see that what was happening?

684
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: You know?

685
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: They were obviously totally freaked out by it. Yeah, would

686
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 2: all sat through essentially the same experience. I mean the

687
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: fact that by that point, you know, I pretty much

688
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: knew what was going on, even though I couldn't see it.

689
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: You know, I knew how Richard was achieving the effects.

690
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: But again, it's just that thing you said about we

691
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: interpret the world through our own individual lends, our own

692
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: individual spectacles. You know.

693
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: I think it was a nas Nin who said we

694
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: don't see things as they are, we see things as

695
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: we are.

696
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's ever so true.

697
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing that this has probably taken a bit

698
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 1: of a left turn. I don't know if you feel

699
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: free to shut me down, but I'm fascinated with just

700
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: the way they do their job, magicians and mentalists, and I,

701
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, I want to believe, like I somebody who's

702
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 1: I don't know if he lives anywhere near you, butter

703
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:04,479
Speaker 1: and uh an englishman who is I just think he's great.

704
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: Is Dynamo Stephen Frayne. I think he's his actual name is.

705
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: And I watched some of the ship that he does,

706
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: and I'm like, dude, you are actually magic. I don't

707
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: I don't care what anyone says, I'm looking at him.

708
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: I saw you just throw a card and it landed

709
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 1: inside a coke bottle with the top on, and like that,

710
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:33,919
Speaker 1: that's magic. Yeah, I'm like, this is And then he'd

711
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: walk up to a group of Now unless they're setting

712
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: up every group of strangers on every street corner and

713
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: do this stuff, That to me is just have you

714
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: ever opened that door and pond at any of that stuff,

715
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: because I know, I love that.

716
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: I had a colleague at Girlsmith's, professor Gustav Kuhn k

717
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: u h N. Basically he was a conjurer and a psychologist,

718
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: and his area was the science of magic, and so

719
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: what he would do is they were basically kind of

720
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: deconstruct magic tricks to just figure out how they work,

721
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: you know. And again, you know, he got into a

722
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: little bit of trouble with the Magic Circle over here

723
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: because there were some people who were saying, oh, you're

724
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: revealing tricks, and that is a no no obviously for conjurers.

725
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: He I don't think he was revealing anything that secret,

726
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 2: you know. I mean again, like Richard Wiseman has written

727
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: books on the psychology of magic as well, and they

728
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: wouldn't give away anybody. It's any act that somebody was

729
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: still using, and it would be kind of old tricks

730
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 2: that anybody could look up on. In these days, unfortunately,

731
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: you can look up any trick on the Internet and

732
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: be told how it was done. But yeah, that is

733
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,439
Speaker 2: a fascinating area, you know. And as like I said before,

734
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 2: my friends, I've got quite a few friends who are conjurers.

735
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 2: And there's a guy called Paul Zenon who was probably

736
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: a bit of ahead of the gay in terms of

737
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: street magic. You know, he was doing it before David

738
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: Blaine came along. And all these other people. There's a

739
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 2: Darren Brown, a Dynamo as you say, I mean, Penn

740
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: and Teller and there you know, all these people and

741
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: they're all fascinating, you know, they're are. I find it

742
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: absolutely fascinating. People tend to assume that, because of my

743
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: research interest that I have quite an in depth knowledge

744
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: of conjuring techniques. Well I don't have a very I

745
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: have a very superficial knowledge of country techniques. And I

746
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: love watching magic because like you, I'm watching and thinking,

747
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 2: oh my god, how did they do that? That is

748
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: impossible that I've just seen it with my own eyes.

749
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: But I know it's not possible, you know, and it's

750
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 2: that that thrill that you get watching I love watching

751
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: kind of watching magic and see Penn and Teller recently

752
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 2: at the London Palladium and they were brilliant, you know,

753
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 2: as always. But yeah, I say, I love that world.

754
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: I know a little bit about the actual techniques is

755
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: not very much. I probably know a bit more about

756
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: the general psychology. So much of magic is just about misdirection.

757
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 2: That is the kind of number one thing. I mean,

758
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: it sounds so simple when you say it, you know,

759
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: but literally it's just a matter of learning techniques that

760
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: make people look over there. We're actually all the really

761
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: interesting any over here, you know. And obviously that's a

762
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: gross over simplification, but I've watched my friend Gustav perform

763
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: various tricks in pubs and so on the same trick repeatedly,

764
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 2: and I still don't have a clue how he does it, you.

765
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: Know, because it's magic you need to believe.

766
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, god, this is I passed myself off

767
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: as a psychic on Daytime TV on one of it. Yeah,

768
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: that was just kind of you know, there's a there's

769
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: a technique known as cold reading, which basically you can

770
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 2: use to convince complete strangers that you know all about them.

771
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: And you know, there are books written about cold reading.

772
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 2: And so I was contacted by a researcher for a

773
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: daytime TV show and they were doing an item on

774
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 2: psychics and I was banging on about cold reading, and

775
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: the researcher said, well, could you come on the show

776
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: and do it for us? And oh god, no, no,

777
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't always work, no, no, yeah, but she twisted

778
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: my arm and got me to do it. They've got

779
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 2: a couple of volunteers and I was introduced to them

780
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 2: as being somebody who claimed to have psychic powers, and

781
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: I was going to do a reading for them, and yeah,

782
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: it worked really well. It worked really well on the

783
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: first woman that I did the reading for, and then

784
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 2: at that point, only at that point, the researcher began

785
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: to get kind of moral qualms about it. And so

786
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: for the second woman, she said, one thing I should

787
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: tell you is that some of the people we've got

788
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: in today are genuine psychics. Some of them are fakes.

789
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 2: And that obviously completely changed the mental sets of the reading.

790
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: You know, she was totally didn't trust me at all,

791
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 2: you know, and the Number one golden rule of cold

792
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: reading is get the client's corporation, get them on your side,

793
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: you know. So I started off with this other woman

794
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 2: saying kind of, oh, look, it's a bit nervous because

795
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 2: it's the first time I've ever done this in front

796
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 2: of cameras, you know, and usually when I do a reading,

797
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: I spend at least an hour with each with each

798
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: of my clients. And we've only got ten minutes. So,

799
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: you know, is there anything you could tell me to

800
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 2: kind of, you know, speed things along. You know. She

801
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 2: told me that her granddad was in spirit, and so

802
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: obviously I've got a great starting point there. You know,

803
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: we just just take it from there. But yeah, I

804
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 2: mean again, it wasn't about it certainly wasn't not about

805
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: trying to make her look stupid. It was just about

806
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,439
Speaker 2: making the point that these techniques really do work. I'm

807
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 2: not a particularly good cold reader, but I could probably

808
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: make a living off it.

809
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: You know, have you ever heard of it? Sorry, have

810
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: you ever heard of a guy called Lee what is that?

811
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: Or Sushard? He's a an Israeli mentalist. He's absolutely he's brilliant.

812
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 1: He's like Darren Brown. But I went and saw him

813
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: in Melbourne and he did this thing which I've got

814
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,760
Speaker 1: no idea how he did it. So there was Firstly,

815
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: one of the things he did was which was just

816
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: an exercise in a brilliant brain. But before the start

817
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: of the show, he went through the audience. I don't know,

818
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: there's maybe a thousand people and he just asked these

819
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: people their name. He went through when what's your name? Much?

820
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 1: Your job? What's your name much? Your job? And then

821
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 1: he probably was one second with you know, hi, I'm

822
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: a Craig, I'm Craig, I'm a podcaster, whatever right. Yeah,

823
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: I'm Chris, I'm a professor, whatever right, did that and

824
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: went thanks, and then he did the show, and then

825
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: maybe two and a half hours later he said all

826
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: the people that I asked your job whatever, stand up,

827
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: and he went through every one of the hundred two

828
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: and a half hours later and told them their name. Now, no,

829
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: that's not magic, but that's a fucking amazing look like

830
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: that's a good party.

831
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: Tree amazing, Absolutely, I mean, and that's one of the Again,

832
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: there is that thing that sometimes you can be too skeptical. Yeah,

833
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 2: you can kind of think, oh, well, that must be

834
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 2: a trick there must be there must be somebody who's

835
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: recorded it when we came in and he's feeding it

836
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 2: to him somehow through an AP So yeah, almost probably almost,

837
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: certainly not. I mean, they have the World Memory Championships

838
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 2: every year and they are phenomenal. And again, I was

839
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: at the opportunity kind of doing this lot of daytime

840
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 2: TV and such, of meeting the British Memory Champion several

841
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 2: years back, and he would do the same kind of

842
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: thing I've seen him do talks and so on, and

843
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: he would kind of exactly what you just described. And

844
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 2: it's just it's just learning these mnemonic techniques and they

845
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: are incredibly a but you have to basically put the

846
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 2: hours in. You have to practice, practice, practice using them

847
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 2: until they become second nature, and then yes, you can

848
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: pull off these amazing feats of memory and they are

849
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 2: absolutely incredible, you know. Yeah, yeah, I mean there is

850
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,280
Speaker 2: sometimes we have this tendency to think that something either

851
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: must be done by trickery or it must be genuinely

852
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 2: kind of paranormal in some way. And mean, another example

853
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 2: be firewalking. You know, people you see someone firewalking and

854
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 2: they're walking along these across these red hot coals that

855
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: really are a very very high temperature and they don't

856
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: appear to be burning their feet, So I mean, wow,

857
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: that's amazing. The thing is that really is happening. It's

858
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: all explicable in terms of physics. It's nothing to do

859
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 2: with you know, the power of the mind over the

860
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: body or anything like that. I mean, I've got again

861
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 2: a lot of skeptical I've never done one, but I

862
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: would actually quite like to do one. I've got a

863
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 2: lot of skeptic friends who've done fire walking just to

864
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: show that it doesn't involve any hokers pocus and in fact,

865
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 2: again going back to my good buddy Richard Wiseman, he

866
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: did a demonstration on TV. Might think it was a

867
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: bit cruel in some ways. It was the used to

868
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: have these There's be a program called Tomorrow's World, I

869
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 2: think it was, and they'd have these once a year

870
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 2: that have these kind of big, mega demonstrations, and Richard

871
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: was interested in firewalking. On the one hand, you had

872
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: the explanation from the physicists who basically say that the

873
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: reason people can do it is because you've got a

874
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: layer of ash, and ash isn't a very good conductor

875
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: of heat, and basically, if you can work you can

876
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: actually work it out that you should be able provided

877
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: you walking pretty quickly, stay stay in contact with the

878
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: colst for about nine seconds or for example, remember something

879
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: like that. You well that on the one hand, on

880
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 2: the other hand, you've got kind of beliefs of the

881
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 2: New ages that it's all about mind overbody and that

882
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 2: basically you should be able to carry on doing it

883
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 2: for as long as forever, you know. And so they

884
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 2: set up this huge firewalk where they challenged that the

885
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 2: firewalkers to stay on for as long as they could.

886
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 2: And obviously, science says after nine seconds or so, you're

887
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 2: going to leap off there because it's going to be

888
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 2: burning your feet. And indeed, that is what happened, you know.

889
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: And although we shouldn't laugh, it was actually quite funny,

890
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: you know, even presenters on the program, you know, the

891
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 2: kind they were going to rush. I've read of another

892
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: I heard of another case where somebody had set up

893
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 2: this was in the newspaper. Somebody had set up a

894
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: firewalk as part of a kind of you know, they

895
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 2: do this sort of thing in management training and so on,

896
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: to show that you can do this stuff. Now, there

897
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: is an element of truth in that, because you know.

898
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I can imagine that, even me as a

899
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 2: skeptic who doesn't think I'm going to burn my feet.

900
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 2: If I'm standing there looking at this stuff, I'm going

901
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: to be oh, really, are you sure? You know? Can

902
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 2: I can? I be bold enough to do it? And

903
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 2: knowing that yes, you have got the confidence to do it,

904
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: that might be psychologically good thing. But you stay on

905
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 2: there too long, it's going to burn your feet. There

906
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: was this case in the paper where the guy had

907
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 2: done it wrong, clearly didn't know what he was doing,

908
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 2: and he'd put the coals in a metal tray. Metal

909
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 2: is a very very good conductor of heat. Nine people

910
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: were taken to hospital with severely burnt feet, and can

911
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: you imagine being the ninth person You've just seen eight

912
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 2: people getting carried off your faith? Oh anyway, Yeah, I

913
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: guess sometimes, like I say, these things are it really

914
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 2: is what you what you think it is. There's no

915
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 2: jiggery pokery, it's exactly as it looks, there's no trickery,

916
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: it's not defying the laws of physics. It's all within

917
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 2: the within the laws of physics. But it can still

918
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 2: be incredible.

919
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. What a great job you have

920
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 1: what a great mind? Yeah? Do you do you think

921
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 1: that like in terms of the you know, we're talking

922
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: about these people with these incredible memories and capacity to

923
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: retain information and recall them. Do you think that we

924
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 1: understand This is diverging somewhat to the current discussion, but

925
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: as we wind up, do you think we have any

926
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: idea how to master our own mind or cognitive horsepower?

927
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: I feel like we don't even know how to optimize

928
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: what we've got.

929
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: I think. Yeah. I mean again, one thing, one thing

930
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 2: to stir away from, and I'm sure you would craw

931
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: is filled ten percent of our brains because it really,

932
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: really really annoys neuroscientists and people say, yeah, we'll use

933
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 2: ten percent of our brains believe tapping through the nine No,

934
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 2: we don't. You may only use ten percent of your brain.

935
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: The rest of us use all of it. Even when

936
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 2: you're asleep, your brain is active. But yes, in answer

937
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 2: to your question, yeah, I think there are some techniques

938
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 2: that genuinely do work to help people. And it's a

939
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 2: lot of it is about kind of will power and

940
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: just you know, an attitude. I mean, I know it's

941
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,919
Speaker 2: a bit corny. I know it's a bit Dale Carnegie.

942
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 2: But the power of positive thinking, it is a hugely

943
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 2: important thing, if you. I mean again, one of the

944
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: things that I often end up seem to get onto

945
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 2: when I'm doing talks on this stuff, particularly the Q

946
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 2: and A. I think skeptics as a rule have a

947
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 2: view that it's always best to really kind of be

948
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: totally right in your understanding of what's going on around you,

949
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: of your interpretation of the way things are based on

950
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 2: evidence and sound reasoning and so on and so forth.

951
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 2: And there's an awful lot of evidence that actually a

952
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 2: lot of the one for better word delusions that we

953
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 2: suffer from are actually beneficial, you know. So there's a

954
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,240
Speaker 2: lot of research that shows that if you give people

955
00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 2: psychologically healthy people questionnaires, on the one hand, have a

956
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 2: load of really really negative possibilities, like you're going to

957
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 2: catch some kind of fatal disease, or you're going to

958
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 2: be involved in an accident and lose your legs, or

959
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 2: you know, really horrible stuff, And I say, what all

960
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 2: the chances that's going to happen to you? And also

961
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,760
Speaker 2: a load of positive stuff. You're gonna win the National lottery,

962
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 2: you're gonna fantastic job, whatever, we tend to underestimate the

963
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 2: possibilities for the negative stuff and overestimate the possibilities for

964
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 2: the positive stuff. You get the same questionnaires to depressives,

965
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 2: and they're much more accurate. Is life really is shit?

966
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 2: Having said that, would you want the life of a

967
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 2: depressive or the life of a slightly deluded, psychologically healthy person?

968
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: You've got you know, I mean, basically, you've got to

969
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: kind of do a bit of double thing. You've got

970
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 2: to I think your adopt an attitude of yeah, I

971
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 2: know I'm going to die. I know it's inevitable, but

972
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 2: I'm not going to spend all day thinking about it.

973
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,919
Speaker 2: You know, I'm gonna I'm going to get from each

974
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,439
Speaker 2: day the positive stuff that I can get, and that's

975
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 2: the stuff that matters. All the rest will will take

976
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 2: it as it comes. But you know, you focus on

977
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: the positive stuff, and to a certain extent, you know,

978
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 2: convince you self that the negative stuff's not going to

979
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 2: really affect you that much. You know it is really

980
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 2: in your heart hearts, but you're going to live a

981
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 2: much better life if you're not depressed. So don't be depressed,

982
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 2: you know, exactly, yeah exactly, But you can do things

983
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 2: that you can take. You know, there's this other dimension

984
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 2: that you're probably familiar with from you know, whether you

985
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: have an internal locus of control or an external locus

986
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 2: of control. And it's psychologically healthier to have an internal

987
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 2: locus of control where you accept that the way your

988
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 2: life is is mostly tends to be down to your

989
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: own decisions, your own actions. Obviously, bad stuff can come

990
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: out of the blue, but it's better to live your

991
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 2: life that way than to live your as a victim

992
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 2: who thinks that stuff just happens to you and there's

993
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 2: nothing you can do about it.

994
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: You've just given me the title for today's episode, and

995
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 1: the title I just wrote it down. It's enjoy the

996
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: delusion exactly right. So it's such an honor for me

997
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: to meet you, and so I feel really privileged to

998
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: have this hour with you. Wow. Can we chat again

999
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: in a few months?

1000
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 2: I'd be happy to. Yeah, you're so good.

1001
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: Do you know what media media what producer producer would

1002
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: say to me, Wow, he's great talent, Like it's hard

1003
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: to find. It's hard to find somebody who has your

1004
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,919
Speaker 1: depth of knowledge and education and brain power who's such

1005
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: a great communicator. So I know you don't need my compliments,

1006
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: but you are such a brilliant Always.

1007
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: Welcome them, mcreig, I always welcome them.

1008
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: Yeah mate, All right, well say goodbye, well say goodbye

1009
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: off air. But for the minute, thanks so much, PROFF.

1010
00:57:58,200 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: We appreciate you.

1011
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 2: Thank qu