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Speaker 1: Appoja Production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.

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Speaker 2: This series we launch into the new world of brave leadership.

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Speaker 2: Happy people create happy businesses, true emotionally intelligent leadership.

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Speaker 1: I picked up vomit once on our about our fourth

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Speaker 1: flight and everybody felt, well, if it's good enough for him,

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Speaker 1: I can do it now.

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Speaker 2: We will be joined by culture and leadership experts and

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Speaker 2: some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us the truth

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Speaker 2: behind their brave leadership journeys. Stephen, first of all, welcome

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Speaker 2: to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me. Emma.

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Speaker 2: You've worn the Wallabies jersey one hundred and twenty nine

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Speaker 2: times and captain the team at the highest level. But

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Speaker 2: on this podcast I do like to go a little

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Speaker 2: deep art, so I'm going to start here when you

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Speaker 2: strip away the jersey, the captain c and the achievements.

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Speaker 2: Who is Stephen Moore really?

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Speaker 3: So? I was born in the Middle East to Irish parents,

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Speaker 3: so mum and dad both Irish. We moved to Australia

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Speaker 3: when I was five. So we're a migrant family that

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Speaker 3: came to Australia to Central queens and a little town

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Speaker 3: called Mount Morgan. So over the however long it is

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Speaker 3: forty years that I've been in Australia, the country has

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Speaker 3: shaped me a lot and shaped the way that I

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Speaker 3: played rugby and what it meant to me to play

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Speaker 3: for Australia. So who am I? I'm a proud Australian.

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Speaker 3: I really resonate with our Australian values of who we are,

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Speaker 3: where we've come from, where we want to go. Things

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Speaker 3: like having a go work, ethic, discipline, team values, those

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Speaker 3: kind of things really resonate with me. So I guess

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Speaker 3: I've probably touched most of what I've done, whether it's

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Speaker 3: in sport or in life after sport, or even before

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Speaker 3: I played professional sport when I was at school or

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Speaker 3: growing up in Central Queensland. So you know, I think

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Speaker 3: when people ask who are you, you're kind of always

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Speaker 3: discovering that too. I think I can't ever say that's

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Speaker 3: a final kind of thing. I've always trying to learn

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Speaker 3: more about myself all the time, because your life changes,

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Speaker 3: right you kind of start as a child growing up

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Speaker 3: a regional town. I go and play for Australia for

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Speaker 3: fifteen years, traveling the world. Then I had to go

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Speaker 3: and get a real job, so you know, I'm working

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Speaker 3: in an office with a team in the corporate world.

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Speaker 3: I've got a family, they grow up through different stages.

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Speaker 3: You've got relationships with wives, partners, etc. So that kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff always changes, and I think you've got to

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Speaker 3: be really open to changing with that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, kudos. I love that you could actually answer

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Speaker 2: that question. That's not an easy question for people to answer,

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Speaker 2: so I think that's pretty impressive that you could do

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Speaker 2: that interesting spot that your family chose to. My great too,

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Speaker 2: was that where his first job was.

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Speaker 3: It was so Dad who passed away last year was

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Speaker 3: a gp SO a doctor in Galway and the West

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Speaker 3: Coast of Ireland, so he got an opportunity to come

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Speaker 3: to Australia. The economy in Ireland in the late eighties

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Speaker 3: was poor. A lot of people were leaving to go

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Speaker 3: to all corners of the globe. It's a pretty well

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Speaker 3: worn path for Irish to move around the world, whether

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Speaker 3: it's a US, New Zealand and Australia was a big

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Speaker 3: place for them to come, so I think there was

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Speaker 3: incentives to come to regional Queensland. Mount Morgan's Goal mining

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Speaker 3: town historically so very famous Goal mining town over history

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Speaker 3: It's only a town of three thousand people, so very small.

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Speaker 3: It was a bit of a culture shock, I think

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Speaker 3: for mum and dad. There was four of us under four,

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Speaker 3: myself and my three sisters, so there was a big

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Speaker 3: shock for the mom and dad. I imagine it had

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Speaker 3: a big impact on our life growing up in places

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Speaker 3: like that. You know, no one gives you anything there.

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Speaker 3: You've got to work hard for everything you've got, but

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Speaker 3: you get great opportunity. Small towns give you access to things.

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Speaker 3: Everything's available to you. It's the same people doing the

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Speaker 3: same stuff, and you're really you don't have the kind

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Speaker 3: of complexity that we probably have now with our kids

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Speaker 3: in big cities and all the logistics that go with that.

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Speaker 3: So I feel very lucky that I could go to

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Speaker 3: swimming training, and I could play rugby right next door,

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Speaker 3: and what school was around the corner and all that

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff. I think it gave me a real advantage.

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Speaker 3: I'm very grateful for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I'm really sorry to hear

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Speaker 2: about your dad. I lost my mum a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: Is your mom still with us?

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Speaker 3: Ers they're both the same age. Her dad was seventy

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Speaker 3: six and he was largely fit and healthy, but in

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Speaker 3: the end, hey, you had a lot of trouble with

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Speaker 3: his heart and that essentially what ended up getting him

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Speaker 3: in the end. So yeah, but look, he didn't suffer

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Speaker 3: for a long time, which I think there was one

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Speaker 3: positive out of it. That was it. But you know,

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Speaker 3: we're missing him. You know, it's still pretty fresh.

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Speaker 1: So very much.

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Speaker 2: So it's a tough thing, particularly.

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Speaker 3: With our kids for example, you know, they kind of

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Speaker 3: probably still getting used to him not knocking on the

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Speaker 3: door and bringing the bag of Lolli's over and things

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Speaker 3: like that. So yeah, I've got very fond memories of

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Speaker 3: Dad and the relationship that we had throughout my whole life.

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Speaker 2: So if you look back thinking about your dad, what

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Speaker 2: was it that he taught you? The core of it?

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Speaker 3: Firstly, work ethic. We grew up in, as I said,

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Speaker 3: in central Queensland. Dad was the only doctor in town,

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Speaker 3: so he was working twenty four to seven if he

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Speaker 3: had to, so he would get calls Saturday night to

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Speaker 3: go to an accident or if someone needed something. So

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Speaker 3: that kind of work ethic really resonated with me. In turn,

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Speaker 3: then he provided for us to be able to do

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Speaker 3: all the things that we got to do. He worked

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Speaker 3: hard to be able to give us those opportunities and

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Speaker 3: you know, I guess then it's up to you to

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Speaker 3: take them right over time. But that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 3: I feel grateful about that and giving us access to moments.

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Speaker 3: You know, I remember flying down to watch the Wallabies

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Speaker 3: play the All Blacks in nineteen ninety six, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I was twelve. I got such clear memories of that,

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Speaker 3: getting on the plane coming down. It was the old

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Speaker 3: Laye Park back then. Those kind of moments where Dad

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Speaker 3: made the effort to be able to do that and

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Speaker 3: we were lucky to be able to do that. But

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Speaker 3: that kind of has stayed with me a lot. He

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Speaker 3: wasn't terribly interested in rugby, but he knew that I was,

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Speaker 3: and he was really keen to make sure I got

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Speaker 3: to experience those things.

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Speaker 2: That's a beautiful lesson. Yeah, I love that. I know

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Speaker 2: when my mom passed away that it made me reflect

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Speaker 2: on a lot of things in life. Is I'm sure

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Speaker 2: it does. You talk about your dad having this amazing

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Speaker 2: work effic and it's been stilled the new. Has his

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Speaker 2: passing made you reflect on the opposite, like not being

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Speaker 2: all about hard work, about taking care of yourself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think generally family life, you know, there's kind

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Speaker 3: of change a little bit. It was quite traditional back then.

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Speaker 3: Dad probably didn't go to a lot of my sport

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Speaker 3: on weekends because he was working all the time. But now,

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Speaker 3: you know, I feel it's important to be able to

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Speaker 3: try and do that for our kids, and that's important

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Speaker 3: to me. And thankfully, I think the way work life

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Speaker 3: balance is that as long as you get your work

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Speaker 3: done and you kind of do have that flexibility to

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Speaker 3: be able to go and do some stuff so your

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Speaker 3: kids sport and spend quality time with them as well.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, and I think that helps you work if

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Speaker 3: you have that kind of connection at home with your

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Speaker 3: kids and your wife in my case, and you do

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Speaker 3: better work I think when you go into work, right,

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Speaker 3: So it's kind of all connected. I think we probably

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Speaker 3: understand that a little bit more than we maybe did back.

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Speaker 1: In the day.

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Speaker 2: A great You mentioned that you grew with three sisters.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean that you're a far more emotionally sensitive

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Speaker 2: and aware man. Did that have that impact on.

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Speaker 3: You or No? No, My memories as a boy growing

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Speaker 3: up was mostly hitting a cricket ball against the wall,

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Speaker 3: you know, on my own a lot of the time,

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Speaker 3: kicking the ball up in the air and chasing it myself.

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Speaker 3: So I had some great neighbors and we became very

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Speaker 3: good friends. You live half your life in the neighbors

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Speaker 3: backyard and vice versa. So, but the girls were very

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Speaker 3: much dolls and you know that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: So I didn't dress you up and things like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I went through a bit of that,

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Speaker 3: but I was the oldest.

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Speaker 2: See so oh, okay, protector.

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Speaker 3: I kind of played that role.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, fair enough. And I know that you obviously.

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Speaker 2: Then when you moved to Brisbane, you went to boarding school.

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Speaker 2: It's funny when I heard that, I had such an

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Speaker 2: idea in my head. I grew up in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: If you can't pack it, and I wasn't going to

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Speaker 2: mention that, Yeah it's fading. Boarding school was just like

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Speaker 2: punishment in my head, right, like you were punished. You'd

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Speaker 2: go away and it was scary. Maybe I'd watch too

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Speaker 2: many movies, but you and probably many other people that

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Speaker 2: have interviewed just thought it was the best. Why was

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Speaker 2: it such an impact because it gave.

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Speaker 3: Me the opportunity to do more of what I already

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Speaker 3: loved doing, you know, because I didn't have to leave

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Speaker 3: the campus, you know, kind of playing touch footy on

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Speaker 3: the oval till it was dark and that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: We get the bus out to the rowing on the

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Speaker 3: weekend and we spent at enormous amount of time together.

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Speaker 3: I remember boarding school mid nineties. It was the start

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Speaker 3: of computers. So people are starting to get computers and

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Speaker 3: playing all sorts of games and things like that on it,

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Speaker 3: and that was pretty cool back at the time because

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Speaker 3: it was new. It's a bit like what AI is now. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're right, that kind of generation where computers and they

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Speaker 3: are enormous. They took up your whole desk, but you

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Speaker 3: had the screen and the big PC thing next to

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Speaker 3: it with your keyboard, and that was a real buzz

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Speaker 3: to have a computer, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I think we're the same age from when I

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Speaker 2: looked up and yeah, I remember that the first one

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Speaker 2: computer in the library and get to book in your slots.

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Speaker 2: To you is that's pretty exciting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all right. So I got very fond memories

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Speaker 3: of boarding school. You know, some of my best mates

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Speaker 3: are still from that time. And in my school we

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Speaker 3: had quite a small boarding house. It was quite a

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Speaker 3: family kind of feel. There's a lot that I learned

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Speaker 3: dround that time that I've taken with me. So it

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Speaker 3: was quite a strict environment, you know, probably a little

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Speaker 3: bit different to what it's like now. Was it quite

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Speaker 3: regimented around discipline and standards and things like that. And

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Speaker 3: whilst I think that's kind of evolved over time, I

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Speaker 3: still think a lot of that stuff is really important,

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Speaker 3: and maybe we probably gone away from focusing on that

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Speaker 3: as much as we could at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean relationships are at the core for humans.

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Speaker 2: It's so important to have them, and if you having

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Speaker 2: that around you all the time would been big. I

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Speaker 2: guess it lends me to ask you about your views

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Speaker 2: on trust. Do you trust easily or has it earned

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 3: My default is to trust someone, I think until proven otherwise,

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Speaker 3: you know, And I've learned a lot about that in

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Speaker 3: leadership of teams outside of sport, in the corporate world

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Speaker 3: and this whole concept of micro management I think has

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Speaker 3: really evolved, for better or worse. And my kind of

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Speaker 3: default is to believe the best in someone and to

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Speaker 3: trust someone to do their job, to turn up on time,

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Speaker 3: to focus on the right thing things to put the

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Speaker 3: company first, you know, all those kind of things. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, my assumption is that they're doing that until

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Speaker 3: they're not, if you know what I mean. So that's

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Speaker 3: just my style. Other people would have a different view,

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Speaker 3: and that's the beauty of leadership, right. You don't ever

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Speaker 3: have one right way of doing it, and one team

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Speaker 3: might respond well to an opposite. Top of leadership where

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Speaker 3: you do you have a very close supervision and you

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Speaker 3: kind of everything's kind of very tight. You're signing in

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Speaker 3: and out and that kind of stuff. But so far

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Speaker 3: and my corporate life, it's less than ten years old,

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Speaker 3: you know when I think about it, So I'm still

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Speaker 3: learning all the time, which is great. My default, as

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Speaker 3: I said, is to trust.

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Speaker 2: Have you found it different? Like when you're in a

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Speaker 2: rugby team, right, it's this tight net relationship where you

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Speaker 2: have to trust each other, right otherwise someone's going to

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Speaker 2: get hurt or you know, something's going to get wrong

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Speaker 2: at there. So I get that trust feels perhaps a

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Speaker 2: given versus you've moved into corporate where these people are

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Speaker 2: not your teammates that you might work around and might

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Speaker 2: not have you back in the same way and have

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Speaker 2: different agendas. Versus you've got one goal right to win

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Speaker 2: as a team as a unit, do you find that

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Speaker 2: you've been a bit surprised by that or have people

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Speaker 2: kind of shown up in the same way they have And.

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Speaker 3: It's a really good question because when we were playing

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Speaker 3: sport in the footy team, you spend so much time together,

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Speaker 3: particularly when you're with the Wallabies, you're basically together twenty

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Speaker 3: four sevens so there's no real delineation between work and life.

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Speaker 3: It's all part of the one thing. So we're eating

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Speaker 3: dinner together every night, we're staying in rooms together. You

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Speaker 3: know a lot about people's life, Whereas in the work environment,

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Speaker 3: people come to work but they might leave their personal

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Speaker 3: life at home. Now I think that has blurred over time,

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Speaker 3: you know, now that we have much more flexibility. I

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Speaker 3: think people are much more comfortable now to speak about

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Speaker 3: their home life or their personal life at work. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's a really good thing because if you're

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Speaker 3: in a good place in one part of your life,

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Speaker 3: there's a good chance that might knock on to the

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Speaker 3: rest of your life. So I think the days of saying, well,

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Speaker 3: you don't talk about at work, that's finished. Have to

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Speaker 3: try and understand more about people as a person rather

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Speaker 3: than just a member of your team or an employee,

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Speaker 3: and that involves trust.

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Speaker 1: Mass people have to trust.

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Speaker 3: That they won't then be judged about that, and you're

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Speaker 3: doing it for the right reasons because you actually care.

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Speaker 3: I think the more that we kind of take time

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Speaker 3: to understand someone as a person, the better outcomes will

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Speaker 3: get as a team in the work environment. It's no

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Speaker 3: different to how we used to operate in the rugby

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Speaker 3: team was to get to know each other as well

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Speaker 3: as we could because in the heat of battle, when

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Speaker 3: you've got a split second to make a decision, or

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Speaker 3: you need someone to respond to something under pressure, they

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Speaker 3: need to know that you care about them, because that's

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Speaker 3: how you get people to go the extra one percent,

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Speaker 3: because it is only one percent in a lot of

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Speaker 3: these cases. You're not asking them to do something they've

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Speaker 3: never done before, but it's that extra discretionary effort that

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Speaker 3: someone gives. They'll only do that if they feel like

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Speaker 3: you care about them.

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Speaker 2: Well, said Stephen, I could not agree more on everything

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Speaker 2: that you said. I will say, having been in the

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Speaker 2: corporate space and obviously work across a number of industries

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Speaker 2: and businesses, it's still not always the case.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I've actually had a number of calls and probably in

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Speaker 2: the last six months of very senior people where they've said,

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Speaker 2: I've said to them, how much do you share about

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Speaker 2: yourself with people?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Because trust and vulnerability your hand in hand. If you're

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Speaker 2: vulnerable and you share something, somebody else is going to

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Speaker 2: share something. Trust builds automatically. And some of their responses are,

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Speaker 2: I keep my personal life very separate. I don't share

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Speaker 2: anything about that. I come to work and I do

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Speaker 2: my job. And I still think that people don't see

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Speaker 2: the edge that comes with it, like it just feels

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Speaker 2: like a risk. And I think sport and the analogy

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Speaker 2: of you've just given it is that's the edge and

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Speaker 2: the difference. You couldn't not know something about the guy

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Speaker 2: who's going to be, you know, tackling someone for you,

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Speaker 2: like you have to know these people. It's not possible

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Speaker 2: to not And so I totally agree, but I don't

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Speaker 2: think it's as necessarily. Still there's still some challenges where

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Speaker 2: people don't think you should. There's there's just you know,

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Speaker 2: a fear or risk of doing it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally agree. And probably the thing I still

316
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Speaker 3: grapple with, which was different from the high performance kind

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Speaker 3: of when you're in that international arena is sharing things

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Speaker 3: about your life, it still needs to connect to high

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Speaker 3: performance and output. How do you work with someone in

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Speaker 3: all the things that they've got going on, whether good

321
00:14:15,881 --> 00:14:19,521
Speaker 3: or bad personally, to still get optimal performance. So that's

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Speaker 3: the key.

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Speaker 2: Path, making space for people to share where they're struggling

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Speaker 2: all this stuff coming up and making them feel like

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Speaker 2: they've been heard. And when we talk about the emotional

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Speaker 2: drivers of psychological safety, seeing her celebrated. If someone feels

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Speaker 2: seen and heard what's going on and celebrating for what

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Speaker 2: they're doing good, they're likely to perform more or work

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Speaker 2: towards a goal like I think there can be a

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Speaker 2: bit of both. I think it's where we expect performance

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Speaker 2: without addressing what's going on underneath. Is the missalignment.

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Speaker 3: We used to work backwards, right, If you say we

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Speaker 3: want to be the best team in the world, that's

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Speaker 3: the outcome, right, that's where you want to get to.

335
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Speaker 3: What do you need to do to get there? So

336
00:14:56,241 --> 00:14:59,921
Speaker 3: you're working back from the outcome to say, well, how

337
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Speaker 3: are we going to get player X to perform? It

338
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Speaker 3: is best? What's going on world? I remember a lot

339
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Speaker 3: of my teammates, particularly later in my career, we're having

340
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Speaker 3: their first child, for example, So preparing for a game,

341
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Speaker 3: they might have been used to going to bed quiet

342
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Speaker 3: all night, they get a great night's sleep, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: But bring another person into the mix. They're up at night,

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Speaker 3: they're trying to help their partner. That kind of dynamic

345
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Speaker 3: shift that can put your preparation out big time, mentally, physically, everything.

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Speaker 3: So that's a good example. I remember sitting up all

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Speaker 3: night before a test match. I remember one in Italy

348
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Speaker 3: and my wife and our first son had arrived the

349
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Speaker 3: night before, so they were jet lags and he was

350
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Speaker 3: up all night like it was a daytime back home.

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Speaker 1: Right, So oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I didn't sleep much that night. But you've got

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Speaker 3: to work that into your team because that was the situation.

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Speaker 3: There was nothing I wanted to do or could do

355
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Speaker 3: about that. It's a perfect test match.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, at the point of you're saying, like you're

357
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Speaker 2: looking at the whole picture and the whole story, you're human.

358
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Speaker 2: What are all the factors that could affect your performance,

359
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Speaker 2: not just you're not performing. That's a very practical example

360
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Speaker 2: of where sleep could affect it. If you're not sleeping,

361
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Speaker 2: of course you're not going to perform.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think one thing I really learned a lot about,

363
00:16:14,881 --> 00:16:17,321
Speaker 3: particularly from one of the coaches I had, Michael Checker,

364
00:16:18,481 --> 00:16:20,961
Speaker 3: is that every player is different. And I probably had

365
00:16:20,961 --> 00:16:23,321
Speaker 3: a view early in my career that there was only

366
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Speaker 3: one way you could prepare to be the best, and

367
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Speaker 3: it was the way that I thought, you know, go

368
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Speaker 3: to bed early, eating the hotel the night before, you

369
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Speaker 3: get up at this time. So I really learned about

370
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Speaker 3: different players have different ways of preparing, and I became

371
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Speaker 3: much more respectful of that, aware of that, and I

372
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Speaker 3: think that's important, not just in sport but in life.

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Speaker 3: Different people have different things that make them tick, different

374
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Speaker 3: ways to prepare it to perform well. As a leader,

375
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Speaker 3: it's your job to understand because if you think there's

376
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Speaker 3: only one way, you're only really talking to a few

377
00:16:59,721 --> 00:17:02,441
Speaker 3: people in your team, right. So that's a really important

378
00:17:02,521 --> 00:17:05,281
Speaker 3: lesson for me through that kind of second part of

379
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Speaker 3: my career. I suppose.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. Let's move a bit up. I

381
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Speaker 2: guess in your career you were playing obviously rugby throughout

382
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Speaker 2: high school and then obviously went onto UNI. But when

383
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Speaker 2: did you realize that rugby might actually become a serious

384
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Speaker 2: path for you, because I know that you studied by

385
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Speaker 2: medicine I think at university, and by all accounts, you're

386
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Speaker 2: probably on your path to becoming a doctor.

387
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Speaker 3: They'd be fair to say, I'll go with that.

388
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Speaker 2: We go with that. So what point did you wake

389
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Speaker 2: up and go, oh man, this could be real.

390
00:17:28,801 --> 00:17:31,200
Speaker 3: I played rugby at school. I wasn't a great rugby player,

391
00:17:31,281 --> 00:17:33,400
Speaker 3: so I went and played at UQ, which is my

392
00:17:33,521 --> 00:17:36,680
Speaker 3: club still to this day. So I don't play anymore,

393
00:17:36,681 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 3: but I'm still involved with the club and I did

394
00:17:39,041 --> 00:17:41,360
Speaker 3: a pre season there. We had a really good colts team,

395
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Speaker 3: which is under nineteen. I had two years of colts.

396
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,120
Speaker 3: In our second year we had a very good team, undefeated,

397
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Speaker 3: won the premiership. I was a captain of that team.

398
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Speaker 3: There was five or six of us that went on

399
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Speaker 3: to play for Australia from that team, so it was

400
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,321
Speaker 3: a pretty special group. Yeah, and out of that season,

401
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,160
Speaker 3: five us got contracts to go to the Reds to

402
00:18:00,281 --> 00:18:03,801
Speaker 3: train full time. So that was the first time I thought,

403
00:18:03,961 --> 00:18:05,961
Speaker 3: you know what, this is probably going to be something

404
00:18:05,961 --> 00:18:07,561
Speaker 3: I'm going to have to take a bit more seriously.

405
00:18:07,801 --> 00:18:09,880
Speaker 3: Up until that time, I was studying full time at

406
00:18:10,001 --> 00:18:13,041
Speaker 3: uq SO and doing science. We had a lot of

407
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,161
Speaker 3: contact our so I was up there all day every

408
00:18:15,241 --> 00:18:19,640
Speaker 3: day pretty much doing pracs and lab things and dissections

409
00:18:19,681 --> 00:18:20,441
Speaker 3: and whatever else.

410
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Speaker 2: So were you passionate about that?

411
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Speaker 3: I enjoyed it and I wanted to be a doctor.

412
00:18:25,001 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 3: I wanted to go on to do medicine. That was

413
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 3: my kind of pathway after playing for fifteen years and

414
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Speaker 3: spending so much time on physio tables and kind of

415
00:18:33,561 --> 00:18:36,561
Speaker 3: put me off at a little bit tired. I kind

416
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Speaker 3: of got an idea away, but that was my plan.

417
00:18:39,721 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 3: But then the rugby kind of took over. That was

418
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,281
Speaker 3: two thousand and three, so I played my first game

419
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,161
Speaker 3: that year unexpectedly for Queensland in South Africa, and then

420
00:18:50,201 --> 00:18:52,921
Speaker 3: two years later I played for Australia. So that part

421
00:18:53,001 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 3: moved pretty quickly. But I never planned it that way.

422
00:18:56,001 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 3: I didn't think when I was fifteen I was going

423
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:01,360
Speaker 3: to play for Australia. I had a dream that maybe

424
00:19:01,481 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 3: I could get there if I worked hard, and I

425
00:19:04,521 --> 00:19:06,880
Speaker 3: knew it was possible because I had posters of people

426
00:19:06,961 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 3: on my wall that had done it, and a lot

427
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 3: of image like that, similar backgrounds like I member Steve

428
00:19:12,761 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 3: war the cricketer, was probably one of my heroes growing up.

429
00:19:16,241 --> 00:19:18,761
Speaker 3: I was a very big cricket fan. You have the

430
00:19:18,761 --> 00:19:21,160
Speaker 3: posters on the wall, and I remember we won the

431
00:19:21,201 --> 00:19:23,561
Speaker 3: World Cup in ninety nine. I was in year eleven,

432
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Speaker 3: So those kind of things light the fire. I think

433
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Speaker 3: I've said this a lot in different interviews. I think

434
00:19:29,681 --> 00:19:33,841
Speaker 3: professional athletes in whatever sport, some do, but not all

435
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,721
Speaker 3: realize the impact that they can have on the next generation.

436
00:19:37,001 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 3: And whether it's Olympic Games or rugby league, rugby union,

437
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,680
Speaker 3: in my case cricket, you've got the chance to really

438
00:19:44,721 --> 00:19:47,441
Speaker 3: inspire people to go on and just work that bit

439
00:19:47,441 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 3: harder to get where they want to go.

440
00:19:48,961 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 2: So where do self belief come from for you? Because

441
00:19:51,681 --> 00:19:54,321
Speaker 2: for me, when the chips are down, when all's stacked

442
00:19:54,321 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 2: against you, it's not looking great. Honestly, anything I've got

443
00:19:57,441 --> 00:20:00,920
Speaker 2: is my unwavering belief in myself. It feels like you

444
00:20:00,961 --> 00:20:03,561
Speaker 2: have the same thing. Is it something you have to

445
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,001
Speaker 2: work on? Where does that come from?

446
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:07,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think it's not always been like that, and

447
00:20:07,961 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 3: probably still various times when you think is it the

448
00:20:10,481 --> 00:20:13,761
Speaker 3: right thing or preparation is one thing. I think I

449
00:20:13,801 --> 00:20:17,801
Speaker 3: always got confidence from the way I prepared my routine

450
00:20:17,921 --> 00:20:20,400
Speaker 3: during the week, making sure I ticked all the things

451
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 3: off that I knew ended up in me performing well.

452
00:20:24,241 --> 00:20:26,601
Speaker 3: So that was a big part. If I'd missed anything,

453
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,481
Speaker 3: I'd be like, it'll.

454
00:20:28,241 --> 00:20:29,241
Speaker 1: Put met you.

455
00:20:29,481 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 3: It will rattle me, yeah, big time. I used to

456
00:20:31,481 --> 00:20:33,401
Speaker 3: always say go to the physio on the day off

457
00:20:33,481 --> 00:20:35,400
Speaker 3: or get a massage or things like that, because that

458
00:20:35,561 --> 00:20:38,561
Speaker 3: was my preparation to play well and if I miss that,

459
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,041
Speaker 3: that would knock me around a bit.

460
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:44,001
Speaker 2: So I think that part of it's very clever, right

461
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:46,641
Speaker 2: doing the things that always lead to the success. It's

462
00:20:46,681 --> 00:20:49,281
Speaker 2: the ability. What if it goes wrong, how you came with.

463
00:20:49,321 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 3: It exactly, And that's the flip side of that. Whether

464
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,441
Speaker 3: that impacted over time. Maybe if it didn't go that way,

465
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 3: maybe if I didn't play well, that might have been why.

466
00:20:57,921 --> 00:21:00,561
Speaker 3: I don't know, but that was my approach. The other

467
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 3: one was that the great thing about playing sport in

468
00:21:03,681 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 3: a team is that you've got the ability to go

469
00:21:06,561 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 3: out and have a direct impact on the game. So

470
00:21:09,561 --> 00:21:12,561
Speaker 3: I took that really seriously, like I didn't expect anyone

471
00:21:12,561 --> 00:21:15,281
Speaker 3: else to do anything. I just wanted to get my

472
00:21:15,441 --> 00:21:18,801
Speaker 3: part right and have an impact. So when you retire,

473
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,200
Speaker 3: I sit on the sideline now watching kids sport, not

474
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 3: just my kids, but other kids, and you can't do

475
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 3: anything about it. You know, you're kind of just watching

476
00:21:27,681 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 3: it as a spectator. And I miss being on the

477
00:21:31,241 --> 00:21:33,561
Speaker 3: other side of the line where you can actually have

478
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,880
Speaker 3: an impact and you can contribute. You can be the

479
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,681
Speaker 3: master of your own destiny.

480
00:21:38,241 --> 00:21:40,041
Speaker 1: To a degree they could control.

481
00:21:42,041 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 2: Well, possibly it's for a lot of us, right, It's like,

482
00:21:45,201 --> 00:21:47,041
Speaker 2: I get what you mean by the impact, but also

483
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 2: it's that watching something and actually being able to control

484
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:49,881
Speaker 2: an outcome.

485
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

486
00:21:50,721 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 2: So obviously at this point in time, I find correct

487
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 2: you play about eighty tests for Australia before you'd ask

488
00:21:55,321 --> 00:21:56,321
Speaker 2: the captain. Is that correct?

489
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 1: Okay?

490
00:21:57,241 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 2: So when you get asked, Captain Wallabees war went through

491
00:21:59,241 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 2: your mind at that moment? Did you feel ready for it? Like,

492
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,681
Speaker 2: were you like, this is not an ego thing, but hey,

493
00:22:03,801 --> 00:22:05,801
Speaker 2: I've done the yards, I've done the hard work. I'm

494
00:22:05,801 --> 00:22:07,761
Speaker 2: not entirely surprised I've been asked or was it a

495
00:22:07,761 --> 00:22:08,321
Speaker 2: bit of a shock.

496
00:22:08,801 --> 00:22:11,241
Speaker 3: It was a bit of both, because I thought, if anything,

497
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 3: I was probably past the window to be a captain.

498
00:22:14,961 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 3: I thought maybe my time had gone. Some of my

499
00:22:17,521 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 3: good mates were the captain of the team in the

500
00:22:19,761 --> 00:22:22,521
Speaker 3: years prior and did a really good job. I was

501
00:22:22,561 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 3: always part of the senior leadership group in those teams.

502
00:22:25,681 --> 00:22:28,681
Speaker 3: I've kind of played a role in the leadership group

503
00:22:28,761 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 3: and I felt like I could do the job, but

504
00:22:30,681 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 3: I was also respectful of the guys that were in

505
00:22:32,961 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 3: the role. So when it happened, obviously was one of

506
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 3: the great moments in my life. It's a weird story.

507
00:22:39,721 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've heard it before, and other things.

508
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: You and Mackenzie was a coach, great coach, one of

509
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 3: the best coaches I've had, and I really liked working

510
00:22:47,001 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 3: with you. And he rang me and said, I just

511
00:22:49,241 --> 00:22:51,201
Speaker 3: want to meet you in Sydney. I was in Brisbane.

512
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 3: Come down to the airport and I'll meet you at

513
00:22:53,281 --> 00:22:55,241
Speaker 3: Krispy Krems at Sydney airport.

514
00:22:55,321 --> 00:22:58,481
Speaker 1: Wow. So I thought, interesting choice of in you. Yeah.

515
00:22:58,481 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: I get to the airport and I walked down to

516
00:22:59,921 --> 00:23:02,001
Speaker 3: Krispy Kreams and he's sitting there with a coffee. And

517
00:23:02,721 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 3: I didn't know if it was a test or you

518
00:23:04,241 --> 00:23:06,001
Speaker 3: know what I was going to because there's not much

519
00:23:06,001 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: here other than donuts, right so we both got a

520
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 3: coffee anyway, and he said, I wanted to tell you

521
00:23:10,521 --> 00:23:12,321
Speaker 3: face to face, I'd like you to be the captain

522
00:23:12,321 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 3: of the team and take on that role, and you know,

523
00:23:15,281 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 3: this is why I think you'll do a good job

524
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. I went back to

525
00:23:18,481 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 3: the airport and flew out. Yeah, so that was how

526
00:23:21,681 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 3: it actually happened.

527
00:23:22,481 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 2: Had an interesting flight home. Your brain would have been

528
00:23:24,201 --> 00:23:24,561
Speaker 2: angle to do.

529
00:23:24,761 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was because it wasn't public and I kind

530
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,001
Speaker 3: of said, don't tell anyone until we make an announcement

531
00:23:30,041 --> 00:23:32,681
Speaker 3: and we're going into camp I think that weekend, which

532
00:23:32,721 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 3: is when he told the media and the team and

533
00:23:35,201 --> 00:23:37,921
Speaker 3: all that. So that's kind of how it played out.

534
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 3: As it turned out. We played France in our first Test,

535
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:43,561
Speaker 3: in my first Test as captain in Brisbane, and I

536
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,401
Speaker 3: did my knee in the first ten seconds.

537
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,481
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, I would have probably seen.

538
00:23:48,321 --> 00:23:50,121
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I want to talk about that one.

539
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: Did you have a moment there where you went it's

540
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,001
Speaker 2: over more.

541
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: Than a moment, more than a moment.

542
00:23:54,241 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 3: Well, I knew it was badly injured when I did it,

543
00:23:56,241 --> 00:23:59,561
Speaker 3: because I've never had raptured my acl before and it

544
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 3: felt different than anything I'd done, so I knew, and

545
00:24:02,001 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 3: my knee was very unstable. So Peter my A, the

546
00:24:05,521 --> 00:24:08,761
Speaker 3: great knee surgeon, he was on the sideline and he said, mate,

547
00:24:08,801 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 3: it's gone. You've done your ACL. So I knew straightaway.

548
00:24:11,961 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 3: One of the radiologists put me in his car at

549
00:24:13,921 --> 00:24:17,921
Speaker 3: halftime and took me to his radiology clinic at Tuwong. Yeah,

550
00:24:17,961 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 3: Ben Kelly and I had a scan lot before the

551
00:24:20,201 --> 00:24:23,481
Speaker 3: game even finished, so I knew that my ACL was gone.

552
00:24:23,681 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 3: And to me, that was a bit of a moment

553
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,761
Speaker 3: to say, my first test is captain and still going

554
00:24:28,801 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 3: on at Suncourt with fifty zerousand people and I'm sitting

555
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 3: in a radiology clinic in Tuwong. You could hear a

556
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:37,801
Speaker 3: pin drop in there, and I thought, that's it. You know,

557
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 3: I've been a one test captain. Michael Pople was coming

558
00:24:41,961 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 3: through and he was a very strong player in the team.

559
00:24:45,721 --> 00:24:48,041
Speaker 3: I thought that they might just keep him there now

560
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 3: ongoing and off he goes. So I was prepared for that.

561
00:24:51,241 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 3: I had a long time to think about that.

562
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: When you say you're prepared for that, because obviously you

563
00:24:55,201 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: come back in twenty fifteen and they give you the

564
00:24:57,481 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: captaincy back when you say you were prepared for that,

565
00:25:00,201 --> 00:25:02,561
Speaker 2: were you if they didn't give it to you? Did

566
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,201
Speaker 2: you feel like you had to earn that capsie back?

567
00:25:04,241 --> 00:25:06,321
Speaker 2: And then also, where would you have gone to if

568
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 2: you didn't like how things would have changed for you?

569
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 2: Would you think you would have been able to slot

570
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 2: in as a team member and not play that role.

571
00:25:11,561 --> 00:25:14,561
Speaker 3: I think so because I'd been used to doing it previously,

572
00:25:14,761 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 3: so you know, for years before I was captain, I

573
00:25:17,721 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 3: was senior player in the team and played that role.

574
00:25:20,201 --> 00:25:23,561
Speaker 3: So I think so. Because it was such a serious injury,

575
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,121
Speaker 3: I was really focused on my rehab and getting back

576
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: to just play, trying to get my performance back to

577
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:31,481
Speaker 3: where it needed to be to be actually in the team.

578
00:25:32,001 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 3: So that was the first hurdle. And once I got

579
00:25:34,681 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 3: to that place, Michael Checker was then the coach, so

580
00:25:37,921 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 3: there was another new coach, and he didn't give much

581
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,241
Speaker 3: away around how he was going to do it. Check

582
00:25:43,321 --> 00:25:45,641
Speaker 3: was always someone who he would use all the time.

583
00:25:45,761 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 3: He had to make decisions, and he would consider everything

584
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,761
Speaker 3: and let things play out and see where they landed.

585
00:25:51,801 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 3: And I found that pretty tough.

586
00:25:53,521 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: You're obviously a very measured person. It's clear that you

587
00:25:55,761 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 2: kind of have a plan and you sort of this

588
00:25:57,241 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 2: consistency obviously came in with your rehab as well. Yeah,

589
00:26:00,441 --> 00:26:03,001
Speaker 2: but up here are you kind of like you're working

590
00:26:03,001 --> 00:26:03,681
Speaker 2: at a Plan B.

591
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 3: For me, Plan B is still being in the Test

592
00:26:06,681 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 3: team and playing in a World Cup, because that was

593
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,561
Speaker 3: a World Cup year, so it was a big year

594
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 3: for us. I mean, that's a pretty good Plan B, right,

595
00:26:13,721 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 3: And in the meantime, we'd had our second child out,

596
00:26:16,521 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 3: our daughter I was born, So I had a lot

597
00:26:18,321 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 3: of stuff to be grateful for and happy about, and

598
00:26:21,281 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 3: that gave me a lot of perspective through my rehab.

599
00:26:23,521 --> 00:26:26,401
Speaker 3: And I also did some work experience with some mentors

600
00:26:26,441 --> 00:26:28,801
Speaker 3: that I had, and so I really tried to use

601
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,401
Speaker 3: the time to get into some other stuff and take

602
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: me away a little bit from rugby, which is awesome.

603
00:26:33,561 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 3: I mean, that's kind of built some relationships there that

604
00:26:36,201 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 3: have stood me in great stead to this day. So

605
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,001
Speaker 3: I tried to use it as an advantage on a

606
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 3: benefit I suppose, but I regularly thought about, well that

607
00:26:46,041 --> 00:26:48,241
Speaker 3: might be it. You know, Check might say, well, hoops,

608
00:26:48,281 --> 00:26:49,961
Speaker 3: you're going to take the side of the World Cup.

609
00:26:50,001 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 3: But he asked me to do it I felt like

610
00:26:51,921 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 3: it was the first time again because they've been so short.

611
00:26:55,441 --> 00:26:58,801
Speaker 3: So I had the similar feelings beforehand, and I wanted

612
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,161
Speaker 3: to do a good job and I was very grateful

613
00:27:01,201 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 3: to be given that opportunity again. Amazing, not just to check,

614
00:27:04,681 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 3: but the support that I had from Michael Hooper, Matt

615
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 3: Giddo and I'm actually Cooper, David Pocock. The list goes

616
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 3: on of people in that team that could have been

617
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 3: the captain, and that's why we were pretty successful. I

618
00:27:17,481 --> 00:27:19,801
Speaker 3: know we didn't quite get there in the end in

619
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:20,321
Speaker 3: the World Cup.

620
00:27:20,481 --> 00:27:21,041
Speaker 2: Sorry about that.

621
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, once again, he didn't bring that up, but I

622
00:27:24,281 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 3: thought once.

623
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: You said yeah, I totally forgot.

624
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:27,321
Speaker 2: I shouldn't mentioned.

625
00:27:28,201 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 3: We're going to hear about it.

626
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: But anyway, Oh, John Olimo in the day that was

627
00:27:31,241 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 2: my I had him on my wall.

628
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you wouldn't have been on your own there.

629
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 3: I don't think he was probably the first superstar he was,

630
00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: so he was a great icon of our game.

631
00:27:40,921 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 2: What I find in corporate a lot is that sometimes

632
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,561
Speaker 2: when people can move into a leadership role, they feel

633
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: this dynamic needs to change in their relationship, which in

634
00:27:48,241 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: some regards it does. You know, they can you just

635
00:27:50,721 --> 00:27:52,321
Speaker 2: sit around with them at lunch time and have the

636
00:27:52,321 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 2: same conversations here before. Sometimes not sometimes yes, but sometimes

637
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,721
Speaker 2: for people it can be a very tricky place, which

638
00:27:57,761 --> 00:28:00,121
Speaker 2: then ultimately can lead to a bit of loneliness being

639
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: in that sort of leadership position. Does that rule apply

640
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: in rugby as well or not?

641
00:28:05,241 --> 00:28:05,881
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

642
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:08,041
Speaker 2: Okay, you felt that shift when you moved into a

643
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:08,841
Speaker 2: captaincy role.

644
00:28:09,001 --> 00:28:12,001
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, And I think coaches make you aware that

645
00:28:12,001 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 3: that's important to them. So if I talk about checking

646
00:28:14,961 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 3: this example, he was someone who he wanted to be

647
00:28:17,961 --> 00:28:21,441
Speaker 3: able to confide in me about stuff that he was thinking. Yeah,

648
00:28:21,481 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: he might not have made a decision, but he just

649
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 3: wanted to either get my view or bounce it off me.

650
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,001
Speaker 3: And I'm sure he had other people in a circle,

651
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,201
Speaker 3: but he would often say, oh, this is what I'm thinking.

652
00:28:31,241 --> 00:28:33,041
Speaker 3: What do you think about that? And we might not

653
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: be going to execute on that for another two weeks,

654
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,481
Speaker 3: So kind of it's between myself and the coach period.

655
00:28:40,761 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 3: And then you've got to have the conversation with the

656
00:28:43,241 --> 00:28:46,001
Speaker 3: playing group who might be saying, geez, I thought we

657
00:28:46,041 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 3: did a bit too much contact at training on Tuesday.

658
00:28:48,321 --> 00:28:51,001
Speaker 3: The boys are a bit sore and then maybe I've

659
00:28:51,001 --> 00:28:53,081
Speaker 3: got to say to check, yeah, I think we need

660
00:28:53,081 --> 00:28:54,761
Speaker 3: to back off a bit of the contact, but then

661
00:28:55,521 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: getting that dynamic right in that respect going both ways

662
00:28:58,441 --> 00:29:00,561
Speaker 3: that I don't think, well, I'm just winging because the

663
00:29:00,601 --> 00:29:02,881
Speaker 3: players have come to me and said they feel this way.

664
00:29:02,961 --> 00:29:06,361
Speaker 3: But that's your role as captain is to be a

665
00:29:06,361 --> 00:29:08,281
Speaker 3: bit of the eyes and ears for the coach and

666
00:29:08,321 --> 00:29:11,121
Speaker 3: the team, but do the same for your teammates to

667
00:29:11,201 --> 00:29:13,481
Speaker 3: the coach. So you're kind of playing both sides and

668
00:29:13,521 --> 00:29:15,801
Speaker 3: you've got to do that effectively. Otherwise if you do

669
00:29:15,881 --> 00:29:18,481
Speaker 3: too much of one, and you know, if the coach

670
00:29:18,561 --> 00:29:22,601
Speaker 3: doesn't feel supported and trusted by the captain, that's not

671
00:29:22,641 --> 00:29:25,081
Speaker 3: a good place. And then likewise, the players need to

672
00:29:25,081 --> 00:29:27,921
Speaker 3: be able to feel like that you've got their back,

673
00:29:27,961 --> 00:29:30,081
Speaker 3: that they're coming to you with genuine things that they

674
00:29:30,161 --> 00:29:33,001
Speaker 3: have a view on. Yeah. But once again, the strength

675
00:29:33,041 --> 00:29:35,561
Speaker 3: and the depth of the leadership group makes that a

676
00:29:35,561 --> 00:29:39,441
Speaker 3: lot easier. So you've actually got some very mature players,

677
00:29:39,521 --> 00:29:42,361
Speaker 3: some mature voices that when they come to you with something,

678
00:29:42,721 --> 00:29:45,401
Speaker 3: you know that they've bought it through. It's not flippant,

679
00:29:45,441 --> 00:29:48,401
Speaker 3: they're not winging. It's a valid point and the coach

680
00:29:48,441 --> 00:29:51,121
Speaker 3: respects that as well. So check was very good at

681
00:29:51,161 --> 00:29:53,641
Speaker 3: listening to the senior players, you know, and I will

682
00:29:53,681 --> 00:29:56,121
Speaker 3: try and communicate kind of how the team was going

683
00:29:56,201 --> 00:29:59,441
Speaker 3: to him without kind of taking away from his plan.

684
00:29:59,961 --> 00:30:00,281
Speaker 1: Yeah.

685
00:30:00,321 --> 00:30:02,681
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's being of communication, I think. So the v

686
00:30:02,841 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: and brave that we talk about is vulnerability. Now, my

687
00:30:05,521 --> 00:30:08,241
Speaker 2: description of that is speaking from the messy medal, which

688
00:30:08,281 --> 00:30:10,921
Speaker 2: is not having all the answers, sharing when you don't

689
00:30:10,921 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: have the answers, when you've got a problem that you

690
00:30:12,481 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: haven't solved in sharing it. At the time when you

691
00:30:15,441 --> 00:30:17,801
Speaker 2: were captain, where did that come in? Like, I'm thinking

692
00:30:17,841 --> 00:30:20,361
Speaker 2: of the era of rugby right then, I'm not sure

693
00:30:20,401 --> 00:30:24,041
Speaker 2: what vulnerability was as widely sort of accepted than it

694
00:30:24,081 --> 00:30:27,121
Speaker 2: is now. Is that fair to say culturally? First of all,

695
00:30:27,161 --> 00:30:29,881
Speaker 2: where vulnerability sat in that? And then equally, how did

696
00:30:29,881 --> 00:30:31,521
Speaker 2: you find that? Did you feel like you had to

697
00:30:31,521 --> 00:30:33,561
Speaker 2: have all the answers? You strike me that you sometimes

698
00:30:33,641 --> 00:30:35,721
Speaker 2: liked to have stuff prepared. You talk about being prepared.

699
00:30:36,241 --> 00:30:38,561
Speaker 2: How were you sharing stuff that you couldn't figure out

700
00:30:38,801 --> 00:30:40,881
Speaker 2: or problems that you hadn't solved with your team? Did

701
00:30:40,921 --> 00:30:41,841
Speaker 2: you or didn't You.

702
00:30:41,641 --> 00:30:43,601
Speaker 3: Probably struggled a bit with that I think, and I

703
00:30:43,601 --> 00:30:48,161
Speaker 3: think to your point that culturally it wasn't probably taboo

704
00:30:48,241 --> 00:30:50,361
Speaker 3: to be kind of showing that you didn't know the

705
00:30:50,401 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 3: answer to something. There was it. And this is probably

706
00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: earlier in my career, a real need to have the

707
00:30:56,241 --> 00:30:57,801
Speaker 3: answer to something and not be able to say, well,

708
00:30:57,841 --> 00:31:00,481
Speaker 3: I'm just not sure about that. So over my career

709
00:31:00,521 --> 00:31:03,161
Speaker 3: and even since we've got a lot better, it's become

710
00:31:03,161 --> 00:31:05,161
Speaker 3: a lot more accepted to be able to put your

711
00:31:05,201 --> 00:31:07,681
Speaker 3: hand up and say I need help, I don't have

712
00:31:07,721 --> 00:31:12,041
Speaker 3: the answer to this particular situation. And also getting input

713
00:31:12,161 --> 00:31:15,161
Speaker 3: from people who don't necessarily have leadership roles. You know,

714
00:31:15,201 --> 00:31:18,121
Speaker 3: I used always say to teammates the leadership group is

715
00:31:18,601 --> 00:31:20,881
Speaker 3: might have that title, but you can be a leader

716
00:31:20,921 --> 00:31:24,281
Speaker 3: in the way you represent yourself around the team. Some

717
00:31:24,361 --> 00:31:26,161
Speaker 3: of the ideas you might have we might not have

718
00:31:26,201 --> 00:31:28,801
Speaker 3: thought of. You got to create that environment where they

719
00:31:28,841 --> 00:31:31,041
Speaker 3: feel comfortable to put their hand up and say this

720
00:31:31,161 --> 00:31:34,561
Speaker 3: is what I think. So I still think teams have

721
00:31:34,641 --> 00:31:36,801
Speaker 3: a long way to go there where people do feel

722
00:31:36,961 --> 00:31:39,161
Speaker 3: confident to actually say what they think and put their

723
00:31:39,161 --> 00:31:41,441
Speaker 3: hand up. The other thing that I think is important,

724
00:31:41,601 --> 00:31:44,841
Speaker 3: there's a lot of different cultural groups within the team.

725
00:31:44,961 --> 00:31:47,281
Speaker 3: So we took a lot of time to try and

726
00:31:47,361 --> 00:31:51,401
Speaker 3: understand the different cultural groups, whether it be Polynesian groups.

727
00:31:51,481 --> 00:31:55,121
Speaker 3: You know that we had Toland, Samoan, Fiji and Maori

728
00:31:55,521 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 3: in our team, and culturally they have a structure that

729
00:31:58,801 --> 00:32:03,641
Speaker 3: they resonate with, right, so important for us to understand that.

730
00:32:04,401 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 3: I throw away comment might be why don't you just

731
00:32:06,241 --> 00:32:08,201
Speaker 3: put your hand up and say, like what you think?

732
00:32:08,721 --> 00:32:10,561
Speaker 1: But yeah, that might be look.

733
00:32:10,361 --> 00:32:13,041
Speaker 3: At some cultures that we had in the team, that's

734
00:32:13,121 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: just not the way that their culture works, right, So right,

735
00:32:15,961 --> 00:32:18,561
Speaker 3: having a real respect for that and understanding that's how

736
00:32:18,561 --> 00:32:23,601
Speaker 3: it works. Check was exceptional doing that and really understanding.

737
00:32:24,441 --> 00:32:26,841
Speaker 3: We had the Australian flag on the wall, but I

738
00:32:26,881 --> 00:32:29,601
Speaker 3: think maybe half the team weren't born in Australia. The

739
00:32:29,721 --> 00:32:33,761
Speaker 3: parents weren't born in Australia. Look I wasn't. I came

740
00:32:33,841 --> 00:32:36,681
Speaker 3: from from Ireland, you know. So yes, you can say

741
00:32:36,681 --> 00:32:39,921
Speaker 3: we all unite under the Australian flag, which was awesome.

742
00:32:40,441 --> 00:32:44,401
Speaker 3: You've got to understand what are people's backgrounds, what motivates them.

743
00:32:44,481 --> 00:32:47,201
Speaker 2: Can you think of a moment in your career, think

744
00:32:47,201 --> 00:32:50,401
Speaker 2: of that feeling and feeling truly exposed, like really vulnerable.

745
00:32:50,601 --> 00:32:51,841
Speaker 2: Is there a moment that stands out?

746
00:32:52,761 --> 00:32:57,281
Speaker 3: Yeah, heaps. Yeah. My first game for Queensland was in

747
00:32:57,321 --> 00:33:00,161
Speaker 3: Pretoria in South Africa, so and I was only twenty

748
00:33:00,241 --> 00:33:02,321
Speaker 3: so I got a late call up to go over.

749
00:33:02,561 --> 00:33:04,681
Speaker 3: Someone got I think they got suspended. So I went

750
00:33:04,721 --> 00:33:07,161
Speaker 3: over and had to play my first game. So I'll

751
00:33:07,161 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: get on with twenty minutes to go, and I'm just

752
00:33:10,361 --> 00:33:12,641
Speaker 3: like praying the ball doesn't go out so that I've

753
00:33:12,681 --> 00:33:14,321
Speaker 3: got to throw a line out, you know, because that

754
00:33:14,441 --> 00:33:17,121
Speaker 3: was my role of the team, and I was so nervous. Yeah,

755
00:33:17,241 --> 00:33:19,321
Speaker 3: I just kept thinking, I just hope they don't kick

756
00:33:19,361 --> 00:33:21,161
Speaker 3: the ball out here because I do not want to

757
00:33:21,161 --> 00:33:24,561
Speaker 3: throw the line at I'm shaking with nervous energy. Said,

758
00:33:24,841 --> 00:33:25,881
Speaker 3: I felt like that.

759
00:33:26,001 --> 00:33:28,841
Speaker 2: Then, you know that was my first So later in

760
00:33:28,881 --> 00:33:31,681
Speaker 2: your career when the being on the field wasn't so scary,

761
00:33:31,801 --> 00:33:33,601
Speaker 2: was there anything that came up in your career where

762
00:33:33,641 --> 00:33:35,401
Speaker 2: you were like, wow, I'm not sure what to do here.

763
00:33:35,561 --> 00:33:39,921
Speaker 3: Yeah? Definitely. My last test, So my last test was

764
00:33:39,921 --> 00:33:45,321
Speaker 3: in Murrayfield in Scotland twenty seventeen. I can categorically say

765
00:33:45,321 --> 00:33:47,601
Speaker 3: that the emotion of it got the better of me

766
00:33:47,721 --> 00:33:50,161
Speaker 3: and it had a big impact on my performance. You know,

767
00:33:50,161 --> 00:33:53,081
Speaker 3: I just was so emotional running out onto the field.

768
00:33:53,361 --> 00:33:56,081
Speaker 3: I just completely lost it. I couldn't get together. So

769
00:33:57,361 --> 00:33:59,001
Speaker 3: I don't think you can prepare for that, you know,

770
00:33:59,041 --> 00:34:00,161
Speaker 3: when it's your last.

771
00:33:59,881 --> 00:34:03,361
Speaker 2: Game, when you think about that, are you empathetic to

772
00:34:03,441 --> 00:34:06,641
Speaker 2: yourself of why game it meant a lot to you?

773
00:34:06,761 --> 00:34:08,721
Speaker 2: Are you punishing yourself for that? Are you wishing your hat?

774
00:34:08,801 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: And I remember leading up to that game, and it's

775
00:34:11,441 --> 00:34:13,761
Speaker 3: hard to avoid this stuff. And this is why I

776
00:34:13,761 --> 00:34:16,441
Speaker 3: think a lot of people's last games it doesn't go

777
00:34:16,561 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 3: that well because you're kind of trying to focus.

778
00:34:19,681 --> 00:34:22,161
Speaker 1: On the team performance, but you're a human.

779
00:34:22,321 --> 00:34:25,041
Speaker 3: You also got this stuff you might want to celebrate,

780
00:34:25,201 --> 00:34:27,561
Speaker 3: you know, people say, oh, it's your last game, and

781
00:34:27,601 --> 00:34:29,441
Speaker 3: everyone's patting you on the back and all that. And

782
00:34:29,601 --> 00:34:32,081
Speaker 3: I was really trying to focus on my performance and

783
00:34:33,041 --> 00:34:35,281
Speaker 3: we had a pretty good preparation and that the week

784
00:34:35,361 --> 00:34:37,401
Speaker 3: went well, even though it was I think it was

785
00:34:37,481 --> 00:34:40,041
Speaker 3: just freezing and raining the whole time, and I thought

786
00:34:40,081 --> 00:34:42,241
Speaker 3: I was fine, you know, going out there. I wasn't

787
00:34:42,281 --> 00:34:44,681
Speaker 3: the captain, so Hoops was the captain, I think, and

788
00:34:44,721 --> 00:34:46,961
Speaker 3: I just completely lost it when I ran out. I

789
00:34:47,001 --> 00:34:48,361
Speaker 3: couldn't get myself together.

790
00:34:48,681 --> 00:34:50,721
Speaker 2: There's that moment right when you realize it's over and

791
00:34:51,041 --> 00:34:54,481
Speaker 2: sort of hits you. Yeah, it's a big thing for sportspeople.

792
00:34:54,201 --> 00:34:56,161
Speaker 3: It is. Yeah, it's pretty final, you know.

793
00:34:56,361 --> 00:35:00,001
Speaker 2: I think that's important that you share that because like

794
00:35:00,041 --> 00:35:01,721
Speaker 2: there's other people come after you that will all go

795
00:35:01,801 --> 00:35:03,921
Speaker 2: through that and being prepared for it too, of how

796
00:35:03,921 --> 00:35:06,241
Speaker 2: hard it's going to hit you in unexpected It's kind

797
00:35:06,241 --> 00:35:08,281
Speaker 2: of like grief, Like that's unexpected. It hits you at

798
00:35:08,321 --> 00:35:10,481
Speaker 2: moments you don't expect. Yeah, it probably went prepared for

799
00:35:10,521 --> 00:35:11,321
Speaker 2: it to eat you that hard.

800
00:35:11,441 --> 00:35:13,761
Speaker 3: I mean, I feel grateful that I got to pick

801
00:35:13,801 --> 00:35:16,161
Speaker 3: when it was the end, you know, like I don't

802
00:35:16,161 --> 00:35:19,241
Speaker 3: think everyone gets that chance, and kind of feel sometimes

803
00:35:19,241 --> 00:35:21,961
Speaker 3: that's a good thing because it is. It's so emotional

804
00:35:22,041 --> 00:35:25,241
Speaker 3: that it can it's a distraction, you know, that's whether

805
00:35:25,361 --> 00:35:27,361
Speaker 3: rightly or wrongly. I've kind of thought about it like

806
00:35:27,441 --> 00:35:30,321
Speaker 3: that a bit, particularly afterwards. I thought it was just

807
00:35:30,361 --> 00:35:33,561
Speaker 3: such a distraction being my last game. Impact it on

808
00:35:33,641 --> 00:35:35,961
Speaker 3: how I played and how maybe we played.

809
00:35:36,001 --> 00:35:38,601
Speaker 2: I don't know, because obviously that inner voice in a critic,

810
00:35:39,161 --> 00:35:41,001
Speaker 2: is he pretty loud, because it sounds like if he

811
00:35:41,041 --> 00:35:43,241
Speaker 2: was telling you, then you didn't perform, you could have

812
00:35:43,241 --> 00:35:45,561
Speaker 2: done better? Is it quite consistent for you? Like you're

813
00:35:45,601 --> 00:35:46,561
Speaker 2: pretty hard on yourself.

814
00:35:46,681 --> 00:35:49,041
Speaker 3: I think so, you know, obviously conscious of it, So

815
00:35:49,081 --> 00:35:52,081
Speaker 3: I try and work on how you kind of deal

816
00:35:52,121 --> 00:35:54,761
Speaker 3: with that. I've always tried to do things well and

817
00:35:54,841 --> 00:35:57,521
Speaker 3: at a high standard. I'm always trying to push that boundary.

818
00:35:57,601 --> 00:36:00,241
Speaker 3: So maybe that results in some of that stuff. But

819
00:36:00,601 --> 00:36:02,601
Speaker 3: you know, one thing in this chapter of my life now,

820
00:36:02,641 --> 00:36:04,921
Speaker 3: I do want to get better at his understanding more

821
00:36:05,121 --> 00:36:08,561
Speaker 3: about that, you know, to your first question, just understanding

822
00:36:08,561 --> 00:36:12,041
Speaker 3: more about who I am and why I am and

823
00:36:12,081 --> 00:36:13,961
Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff. I haven't been good at

824
00:36:14,001 --> 00:36:17,001
Speaker 3: that in my life, I don't think so. I do

825
00:36:17,041 --> 00:36:19,641
Speaker 3: think I've got a lot of things to discover in

826
00:36:19,641 --> 00:36:22,361
Speaker 3: that phase, and people are more open to doing that.

827
00:36:22,681 --> 00:36:26,441
Speaker 3: There's so much like exactly like what we're doing here. Yeah,

828
00:36:26,481 --> 00:36:28,801
Speaker 3: there's so much content now you can tap into to

829
00:36:28,961 --> 00:36:30,841
Speaker 3: give you a bit of a hand to figure that out.

830
00:36:31,041 --> 00:36:31,881
Speaker 3: This is who you are?

831
00:36:31,961 --> 00:36:34,121
Speaker 2: And yeah, and other sports player who said to me

832
00:36:34,121 --> 00:36:37,641
Speaker 2: because when I talk about authenticity, I say, authenticity is

833
00:36:38,001 --> 00:36:41,001
Speaker 2: the opportunity for connection exceeds the fear of rejection. Right

834
00:36:41,321 --> 00:36:44,241
Speaker 2: So right now I'm being as much as Emma as

835
00:36:44,241 --> 00:36:46,001
Speaker 2: I can be. Now, you might walk away and go,

836
00:36:46,481 --> 00:36:48,321
Speaker 2: she was a bit widow. Whatever you might think, right,

837
00:36:48,321 --> 00:36:50,921
Speaker 2: it's life, right, But it's me accepting that because I

838
00:36:50,961 --> 00:36:53,041
Speaker 2: know who I am, I know my character. It's that

839
00:36:53,201 --> 00:36:56,361
Speaker 2: huge difference between fitting and belonging. And I think sticklar

840
00:36:56,361 --> 00:36:58,681
Speaker 2: with sport. You need to fit into a team to

841
00:36:58,721 --> 00:37:01,561
Speaker 2: make it work, and sometimes that can make you adjust

842
00:37:01,601 --> 00:37:03,761
Speaker 2: your style or character or not say things or say

843
00:37:03,801 --> 00:37:06,921
Speaker 2: things to fit into the team. Right, don't be the outside.

844
00:37:06,921 --> 00:37:09,521
Speaker 2: I don't be the outlier. I totally get it. But

845
00:37:09,561 --> 00:37:11,321
Speaker 2: when you've been doing that for a long period, you

846
00:37:11,361 --> 00:37:13,041
Speaker 2: can come up the other side and be like, what

847
00:37:13,081 --> 00:37:14,921
Speaker 2: do I really think? What do I really like? What

848
00:37:14,921 --> 00:37:16,681
Speaker 2: do I really want? And that could be a challenge.

849
00:37:16,721 --> 00:37:19,041
Speaker 2: And so the sporting player said to me, I think

850
00:37:19,081 --> 00:37:21,801
Speaker 2: that I'm the most authentic version of me in that hat,

851
00:37:21,881 --> 00:37:24,281
Speaker 2: Like he's like a we'd different versions of me, and

852
00:37:24,321 --> 00:37:26,521
Speaker 2: I think, you know, there's a sporting version versus the

853
00:37:26,561 --> 00:37:28,881
Speaker 2: guy who comes out afterwards and what he's like. And

854
00:37:28,921 --> 00:37:30,761
Speaker 2: maybe that's the journey that you're on right now figuring

855
00:37:30,761 --> 00:37:31,921
Speaker 2: out this next evolution of you.

856
00:37:32,401 --> 00:37:35,881
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think too. In a high performance language, I'm

857
00:37:35,961 --> 00:37:39,321
Speaker 3: really clear on who I am or who I was

858
00:37:39,401 --> 00:37:42,641
Speaker 3: and what was important to me playing sport. There's an

859
00:37:42,641 --> 00:37:45,321
Speaker 3: element of it that's fairly binary. In terms of your preparation.

860
00:37:45,441 --> 00:37:48,401
Speaker 3: You know, you've got to be fit, far strong, no

861
00:37:48,601 --> 00:37:51,401
Speaker 3: your game plan, your line outs, all that kind of stuff.

862
00:37:51,441 --> 00:37:53,841
Speaker 3: So there's that part that I was really comfortable with

863
00:37:54,161 --> 00:37:56,601
Speaker 3: what I needed to be to be really successful. But

864
00:37:56,641 --> 00:37:59,561
Speaker 3: there's that kind of bit you can't quite quantify that.

865
00:37:59,681 --> 00:38:02,081
Speaker 3: He's a bit more emotional. That's the stuff I'm probably

866
00:38:02,121 --> 00:38:05,481
Speaker 3: keen to really explore. It impacts and interact with all

867
00:38:05,521 --> 00:38:09,241
Speaker 3: your relationships, right with your work at home with your kids.

868
00:38:09,561 --> 00:38:11,361
Speaker 3: That's a bit I really want to work hard on.

869
00:38:12,161 --> 00:38:14,241
Speaker 2: And you're totally right, Like in a world where things

870
00:38:14,241 --> 00:38:18,361
Speaker 2: are becoming more automated and more streamlined, the unique differentiator

871
00:38:18,441 --> 00:38:20,481
Speaker 2: is the human advantage, right, is the ability to connect

872
00:38:20,521 --> 00:38:22,001
Speaker 2: with all that stuff. But at the end of the day,

873
00:38:22,081 --> 00:38:24,801
Speaker 2: it's what you're did in sport, like the relationships, right,

874
00:38:24,881 --> 00:38:27,081
Speaker 2: You've had a lot of constructs around it versus now

875
00:38:27,241 --> 00:38:29,041
Speaker 2: out in the big bad world, you know, which is

876
00:38:29,041 --> 00:38:31,681
Speaker 2: a bit different. Speaking of which you just said before,

877
00:38:31,961 --> 00:38:33,481
Speaker 2: Like I'm only eight years I think eight or nine

878
00:38:33,521 --> 00:38:36,601
Speaker 2: years into your corporate career, Like, it's been pretty impressive, right,

879
00:38:36,801 --> 00:38:39,641
Speaker 2: I feel like you planned for this to work out.

880
00:38:39,801 --> 00:38:42,841
Speaker 2: Is that a fair assumption that this is an accidental

881
00:38:42,881 --> 00:38:46,201
Speaker 2: that you've had this successful corporate career post your rugby life.

882
00:38:46,401 --> 00:38:49,241
Speaker 3: Yeah. I have worked hard on setting myself up or

883
00:38:49,281 --> 00:38:52,561
Speaker 3: giving myself an opportunity to have a life after rugby

884
00:38:52,921 --> 00:38:55,561
Speaker 3: that I enjoy. So I remember someone saying to me,

885
00:38:56,041 --> 00:38:58,641
Speaker 3: like halfway through my career, you know, we had a

886
00:38:58,681 --> 00:39:01,721
Speaker 3: lot of sponsors and very high profile people around the team.

887
00:39:01,801 --> 00:39:06,441
Speaker 3: You know, people are in decision making roles CEOs, So

888
00:39:07,401 --> 00:39:10,521
Speaker 3: that's a pretty unique environment to be able to be in. Right,

889
00:39:10,961 --> 00:39:13,961
Speaker 3: you could walk into the hotel after a test match

890
00:39:13,961 --> 00:39:18,921
Speaker 3: and there could be the CEO of land Rover or Deloitte,

891
00:39:19,201 --> 00:39:21,681
Speaker 3: you know, all these different companies and they're with their

892
00:39:21,681 --> 00:39:25,201
Speaker 3: clients and all that. So that's a really rich environment

893
00:39:25,241 --> 00:39:27,521
Speaker 3: to be able to connect with people. And I tried

894
00:39:27,521 --> 00:39:30,401
Speaker 3: to meet people through that. You know, when we got

895
00:39:30,401 --> 00:39:33,161
Speaker 3: off the bus, I'd just swing by the hotel bar

896
00:39:33,321 --> 00:39:35,041
Speaker 3: and say get eight or a few people and off

897
00:39:35,081 --> 00:39:37,321
Speaker 3: I went back to my room and have a shower

898
00:39:37,401 --> 00:39:40,161
Speaker 3: or whatever. And so over time you build connections and

899
00:39:40,241 --> 00:39:43,321
Speaker 3: relationships and you repeat, you see someone again and you're like, oh,

900
00:39:43,361 --> 00:39:45,921
Speaker 3: maybe we should have a coffee, and so that kind

901
00:39:45,921 --> 00:39:48,081
Speaker 3: of thing. I've got some great advice from people around

902
00:39:48,121 --> 00:39:51,401
Speaker 3: doing that, which I think was so important in building

903
00:39:51,401 --> 00:39:54,721
Speaker 3: my networking connections for life after. And I was lucky

904
00:39:55,601 --> 00:39:58,041
Speaker 3: that when I retired, I had one of those people

905
00:39:58,161 --> 00:40:02,241
Speaker 3: who gave me a job basically, because however you want

906
00:40:02,281 --> 00:40:04,041
Speaker 3: to address it up, you need someone to give you

907
00:40:04,081 --> 00:40:08,121
Speaker 3: an opportunity. You finish and when you walk into the

908
00:40:08,201 --> 00:40:11,481
Speaker 3: room on day one, you're still basically the.

909
00:40:11,441 --> 00:40:14,081
Speaker 1: Footy player, right yeah, yeah, yeah, from.

910
00:40:13,961 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 3: Day one on defining yourself as life after and yeah,

911
00:40:17,521 --> 00:40:19,281
Speaker 3: you're the footy player, but what else do you bring

912
00:40:19,281 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 3: to the table, and on day one it's not much

913
00:40:21,521 --> 00:40:25,361
Speaker 3: because you've just retired. That's a really challenging period for

914
00:40:25,561 --> 00:40:29,961
Speaker 3: people who play professional sport because you still get identified

915
00:40:29,961 --> 00:40:32,241
Speaker 3: as the sports person. I went to things and people

916
00:40:32,281 --> 00:40:35,241
Speaker 3: thought I was the guest speaker and that kind of stuff.

917
00:40:35,521 --> 00:40:40,081
Speaker 3: I'm actually here for work and as someone Oh yeah, yeah,

918
00:40:40,441 --> 00:40:42,681
Speaker 3: that was a really challenging period. But you have to

919
00:40:42,721 --> 00:40:47,161
Speaker 3: work hard to try and listen, ask questions, learn whatever

920
00:40:47,201 --> 00:40:50,041
Speaker 3: field you're in, and then off you go but getting

921
00:40:50,041 --> 00:40:53,921
Speaker 3: that opportunity first up. Yeah, you never forget the people

922
00:40:53,961 --> 00:40:56,721
Speaker 3: that give you those kind of chances because they take

923
00:40:56,761 --> 00:40:58,681
Speaker 3: a risk. Right if you're a footy player and you

924
00:40:58,761 --> 00:41:01,561
Speaker 3: come into a corporate role, everyone's going, oh, you ain't

925
00:41:01,641 --> 00:41:03,601
Speaker 3: gave them the job because they're a footy player and

926
00:41:03,721 --> 00:41:06,481
Speaker 3: you know them from footage and all that kind of stuff.

927
00:41:07,121 --> 00:41:09,681
Speaker 3: To an extent, that's true. So I felt the weight

928
00:41:09,721 --> 00:41:11,721
Speaker 3: of that in terms of what I've got to perform.

929
00:41:11,761 --> 00:41:14,161
Speaker 3: You know, I've got to do my goal of improve

930
00:41:14,201 --> 00:41:17,641
Speaker 3: myself and show that I'm adding value here and all

931
00:41:17,681 --> 00:41:19,761
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. And I still feel a bit

932
00:41:19,841 --> 00:41:23,481
Speaker 3: like that because of what you do in previous life.

933
00:41:23,641 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 3: You know, that's a big part of my life and

934
00:41:25,561 --> 00:41:28,481
Speaker 3: an important part, and I'm very proud of that. I

935
00:41:28,561 --> 00:41:30,921
Speaker 3: want the next part to also be like that. People

936
00:41:30,921 --> 00:41:32,521
Speaker 3: that have done that, you know, I've got a lot

937
00:41:32,521 --> 00:41:35,361
Speaker 3: of respect for because it's hard, and I think that's

938
00:41:35,401 --> 00:41:38,641
Speaker 3: where a lot of athletes struggle in the transition, is

939
00:41:38,681 --> 00:41:43,281
Speaker 3: defining themselves again after getting to the highs of I

940
00:41:43,321 --> 00:41:48,521
Speaker 3: often look at Olympians. We were lucky, we got paid well. Rugby,

941
00:41:48,641 --> 00:41:52,081
Speaker 3: you know, it's a commercial enterprise, it's got TV deals

942
00:41:52,121 --> 00:41:54,521
Speaker 3: and test matches and all that kind of stuff. But

943
00:41:54,601 --> 00:41:57,441
Speaker 3: there's a lot of sports people that work very hard

944
00:41:57,721 --> 00:42:00,201
Speaker 3: to get to the Olympic final or something like that,

945
00:42:00,241 --> 00:42:03,521
Speaker 3: which is that's a bloody good effort, and then you

946
00:42:03,641 --> 00:42:06,561
Speaker 3: kind of don't have the financial recognition to go with that,

947
00:42:06,721 --> 00:42:09,561
Speaker 3: so that's a real battle. You train just as much

948
00:42:09,681 --> 00:42:11,481
Speaker 3: as everyone else does, and then you've got to go

949
00:42:11,561 --> 00:42:14,441
Speaker 3: in and start again from a base, you know, So

950
00:42:15,081 --> 00:42:17,881
Speaker 3: that's a real challenge, and I think all sports are

951
00:42:17,881 --> 00:42:19,961
Speaker 3: always trying to do more to try and get that

952
00:42:20,081 --> 00:42:22,721
Speaker 3: right because you know, there's a connection to mental health

953
00:42:22,761 --> 00:42:26,921
Speaker 3: and you lose your identity of who you were and

954
00:42:26,961 --> 00:42:29,401
Speaker 3: you've got to try and redefine that. So helping people

955
00:42:29,441 --> 00:42:31,601
Speaker 3: through that I think is a very important role for

956
00:42:31,641 --> 00:42:32,921
Speaker 3: all codes and all sports.

957
00:42:33,001 --> 00:42:34,601
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think you've done a pretty good job

958
00:42:34,601 --> 00:42:36,481
Speaker 2: because you answered that opening question. That's why I gave

959
00:42:36,521 --> 00:42:38,081
Speaker 2: it to you at the beginning. Like, I think you're

960
00:42:38,121 --> 00:42:39,881
Speaker 2: doing a good job of knowing who you are, but

961
00:42:39,921 --> 00:42:41,801
Speaker 2: a great advice I think in general, like when you

962
00:42:41,841 --> 00:42:44,081
Speaker 2: mentioned networking, I was in corporate for a long time.

963
00:42:44,121 --> 00:42:46,241
Speaker 2: I've probably only really mastered that concept in the last

964
00:42:46,241 --> 00:42:50,001
Speaker 2: few years. Like it is everything, Yeah, But interestingly, underneath

965
00:42:50,001 --> 00:42:51,361
Speaker 2: it all for most people, and this is what I've

966
00:42:51,361 --> 00:42:53,201
Speaker 2: discovered in the last especially a couple of years of

967
00:42:53,241 --> 00:42:55,481
Speaker 2: the work I'm doing in leadership and performance is for

968
00:42:55,561 --> 00:42:58,761
Speaker 2: most people there's a gap. So there's knowledge and what

969
00:42:58,801 --> 00:43:00,641
Speaker 2: you know you should do and it's taking action, and

970
00:43:00,681 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: it's the gap that sits in between that defines really

971
00:43:02,961 --> 00:43:06,681
Speaker 2: successful people are not And what blocks that gap is fear, doubt,

972
00:43:06,841 --> 00:43:09,281
Speaker 2: lack of confidence, right, And when it comes to things

973
00:43:09,281 --> 00:43:12,001
Speaker 2: like networking, even though I'm a bit of an extrovert,

974
00:43:12,161 --> 00:43:14,361
Speaker 2: there is a part of me that de tests networking.

975
00:43:14,601 --> 00:43:17,881
Speaker 2: This is uncomfortableness, right, and it's figuring out where that

976
00:43:17,961 --> 00:43:19,841
Speaker 2: fear sits in. So I think that if you found

977
00:43:19,841 --> 00:43:22,161
Speaker 2: that ability to lean in and have conversations with people

978
00:43:22,201 --> 00:43:24,201
Speaker 2: that you don't know and sit in that space, it's

979
00:43:24,201 --> 00:43:26,961
Speaker 2: amazing when I tell you that, and you think about fear,

980
00:43:27,361 --> 00:43:29,201
Speaker 2: where do you see that in sport? Where's the fear

981
00:43:29,241 --> 00:43:32,241
Speaker 2: for players? In a corporate sense, most people are feeling

982
00:43:32,321 --> 00:43:35,241
Speaker 2: like they're not intelligent enough. It's like the number one

983
00:43:35,281 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: limiting belief out there for people, which is a big

984
00:43:37,561 --> 00:43:40,601
Speaker 2: thing to walk around feeling right, or they're worried about

985
00:43:40,601 --> 00:43:43,481
Speaker 2: being judged. They are the two kind of primary spaces there.

986
00:43:43,801 --> 00:43:45,281
Speaker 2: Does that apply in sport as well?

987
00:43:46,001 --> 00:43:48,121
Speaker 3: It does very much, And I think a lot of

988
00:43:48,121 --> 00:43:51,201
Speaker 3: that is captured in your team environment, and you know,

989
00:43:51,281 --> 00:43:54,241
Speaker 3: the kind of tone that you coach, your leadership sets

990
00:43:54,281 --> 00:43:56,401
Speaker 3: for the things you're allowed to do on the field.

991
00:43:56,441 --> 00:43:58,281
Speaker 3: Like everyone will have a role, but a lot of

992
00:43:58,281 --> 00:44:01,001
Speaker 3: people are terrified of going outside that in case it

993
00:44:01,041 --> 00:44:04,121
Speaker 3: will fail. Right, so they'll try something but it doesn't

994
00:44:04,161 --> 00:44:06,801
Speaker 3: come off. You know, they'll get in trouble or they

995
00:44:06,881 --> 00:44:09,601
Speaker 3: won't get picked again next week. And there's an element

996
00:44:09,641 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 3: of that where you do need to stick to your

997
00:44:11,521 --> 00:44:13,441
Speaker 3: role in the team and do that really well. But

998
00:44:13,681 --> 00:44:17,361
Speaker 3: having an environment where not being afraid to fail and

999
00:44:17,481 --> 00:44:19,801
Speaker 3: trying stuff, that's I think where you get to the

1000
00:44:19,841 --> 00:44:22,841
Speaker 3: great outcomes is trying new things and getting outside your

1001
00:44:22,841 --> 00:44:26,441
Speaker 3: comfort zone. Because most people in life operate just in

1002
00:44:26,481 --> 00:44:29,161
Speaker 3: their comfort zone and that's okay because they don't want

1003
00:44:29,201 --> 00:44:31,441
Speaker 3: to get outside that and they're afraid of what might happen,

1004
00:44:31,441 --> 00:44:35,601
Speaker 3: whether it's failure or they might learn something about themselves

1005
00:44:35,601 --> 00:44:38,841
Speaker 3: that they know or they just don't know the outcome, right.

1006
00:44:38,921 --> 00:44:41,241
Speaker 3: They know if they stay in this area, I don't

1007
00:44:41,281 --> 00:44:42,081
Speaker 3: know the outcome.

1008
00:44:41,961 --> 00:44:44,201
Speaker 2: Grace on the other side of pushing through. Are you

1009
00:44:44,241 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: out of your comfort zone in life now?

1010
00:44:46,401 --> 00:44:49,561
Speaker 3: I think so. I think in my role, both personally

1011
00:44:49,601 --> 00:44:52,921
Speaker 3: and professionally, I'm in a role where I feel challenged.

1012
00:44:53,001 --> 00:44:56,321
Speaker 3: I feel like I always have to get better and

1013
00:44:56,401 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 3: learn a better way to do things. And I find

1014
00:44:59,001 --> 00:45:02,601
Speaker 3: that really motivating because I'm interested in that, and that's

1015
00:45:02,601 --> 00:45:05,641
Speaker 3: why I like talking about this stuff. I'm genuine interested

1016
00:45:05,681 --> 00:45:08,521
Speaker 3: in how you get better at something and also learning

1017
00:45:08,561 --> 00:45:11,561
Speaker 3: a different way of doing it because, as I said,

1018
00:45:11,561 --> 00:45:14,321
Speaker 3: one of the great learnings from my footy career was

1019
00:45:14,321 --> 00:45:16,441
Speaker 3: that there is more than one way to get to

1020
00:45:16,481 --> 00:45:17,161
Speaker 3: where you want to go.

1021
00:45:17,401 --> 00:45:20,481
Speaker 2: Absolutely so for me, my goal in life has always

1022
00:45:20,481 --> 00:45:23,041
Speaker 2: been about helping people be better humans, right particularly in

1023
00:45:23,081 --> 00:45:25,041
Speaker 2: my space and space of leadership performance that kind of

1024
00:45:25,081 --> 00:45:28,001
Speaker 2: work in corporate. What did rugby teach you about being

1025
00:45:28,041 --> 00:45:28,641
Speaker 2: a good human?

1026
00:45:30,081 --> 00:45:33,041
Speaker 3: I think it taught me that as an Australian, when

1027
00:45:33,081 --> 00:45:36,121
Speaker 3: you get to represent your country in anything, not just sport,

1028
00:45:36,321 --> 00:45:38,961
Speaker 3: could be the military, but you've got the chance to

1029
00:45:39,041 --> 00:45:42,921
Speaker 3: make people feel proud and happy about who we are,

1030
00:45:43,321 --> 00:45:46,561
Speaker 3: where we've come from, where we're going, and to me,

1031
00:45:46,721 --> 00:45:50,321
Speaker 3: that was a big responsibility, but also a great opportunity

1032
00:45:50,641 --> 00:45:53,641
Speaker 3: because that's pretty cool. There's not that many people that

1033
00:45:53,761 --> 00:45:56,081
Speaker 3: get to do that. I felt very grateful to do that.

1034
00:45:56,481 --> 00:45:56,681
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1035
00:45:56,881 --> 00:45:59,561
Speaker 2: Love that when your children hear the story about your

1036
00:45:59,601 --> 00:46:01,241
Speaker 2: rugby career, and like you, kids are old enough now

1037
00:46:01,241 --> 00:46:02,961
Speaker 2: to fully understand probably what you did and what your

1038
00:46:03,001 --> 00:46:05,361
Speaker 2: history is. What do you hope that they take from it?

1039
00:46:05,401 --> 00:46:07,041
Speaker 2: What is the message you want them to come away

1040
00:46:07,041 --> 00:46:08,361
Speaker 2: with and the feeling about their dad.

1041
00:46:09,561 --> 00:46:11,601
Speaker 3: They're mostly laughing at the moment because I think they

1042
00:46:11,681 --> 00:46:14,241
Speaker 3: find a bit funny, but I think I'd like them

1043
00:46:14,281 --> 00:46:16,921
Speaker 3: to think that I was someone who was very proud

1044
00:46:16,961 --> 00:46:20,641
Speaker 3: to play for my country. Took that really seriously and

1045
00:46:21,321 --> 00:46:22,361
Speaker 3: left it all out there.

1046
00:46:22,841 --> 00:46:25,201
Speaker 2: Amazing. Thank you so much. It's been awesome.