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Speaker 1: From the newsroom I used to come to you.

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Speaker 2: Good day there. I'm Andrew Bucklow.

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Speaker 3: Happy Monday to you, and happy birthday to the Dalai Lama,

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Speaker 3: who turned ninety years old yesterday.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking about him over the weekend.

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Speaker 3: I know that he's a spiritual figure, but I don't

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Speaker 3: really know much else about him.

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Speaker 2: If you're in the same boat as meeting where this

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Speaker 2: episode is for.

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Speaker 3: You, We're gonna find out who the Dalai Lama is,

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Speaker 3: what he does, and how he plans to pick his

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Speaker 3: successor after his death.

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Speaker 2: And honestly, when you hear that bit, you will be shocked.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Ruth Gamble from Latrobe University is an expert on

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Speaker 3: the Dalai Lama, and I'm hoping she can tell me

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Speaker 3: all about him. Giday, Doctor Ruth, Hey, how are you going?

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Speaker 3: I am very very well thanked. Let's assume there are

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Speaker 3: people who only know the name or the title of

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Speaker 3: the Dialai Lama, such as myself.

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Speaker 2: What does he actually do and what is the Dialai Lama?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Good question.

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Speaker 4: So the Dialama is one of the most respected Buddhist teachers,

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Speaker 4: and particularly for people who follow there's three different main

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Speaker 4: types of Buddhism. And there's one that's like the more

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Speaker 4: Yoguri type, that's my technical definition. That's centered around the

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Speaker 4: Himalaya and Tibet and Mongolia and Central Asia. So they

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Speaker 4: do a lot of specific meditations and things, and he's

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Speaker 4: the most respected like guru or teacher within that tradition.

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Speaker 1: But here's the weird twist.

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Speaker 4: The di Lammas were also basically like the presidents or

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Speaker 4: the kings of the Tibetan state which existed from about

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Speaker 4: the sixteen hundreds till about nineteen fifty one when it

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Speaker 4: got incorporate when Tibet got incorporated to China.

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Speaker 1: So he had these duel roles.

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Speaker 4: One was like a president or a king of a country,

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Speaker 4: and the other was as a religious leader.

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Speaker 2: You know, the pope.

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Speaker 4: It's like you know how the popes the head of

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Speaker 4: the Vatican City and that's the state, and they're also

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Speaker 4: a religious leader. It's kind of like he had those

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Speaker 4: dual roles, and then China took over Tibet and he

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Speaker 4: went into exile, so he kind of only had an

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Speaker 4: exile role and then the religious role.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: It does, so I believe he's in exile in India.

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Speaker 3: Now he's been there by fifty years or something, so

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Speaker 3: he's purely a religious role now, Well.

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Speaker 1: Yes and no, because this is where the problem comes.

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Speaker 4: Because when the Tibetan government basically fled into exile in

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Speaker 4: India in the late nineteen fifties, they set up what

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Speaker 4: was called a government in exile, and he was the

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Speaker 4: head of that government until about ten years ago. So

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Speaker 4: he continued to have a kind of political religious role,

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Speaker 4: but he always kept saying, I don't want to be

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Speaker 4: the head of a government.

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Speaker 1: I just want to have the religious role.

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Speaker 4: So then they've got like a prime minister for the

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Speaker 4: government in exile now, and he just has a like

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Speaker 4: a figurehead role.

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Speaker 3: Traditionally, how is a new Dalai lama chosen when the

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Speaker 3: previous one dies?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, this is trippy. So what would happen was,

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Speaker 1: first of all, his close students.

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Speaker 4: And other people who were also really respected in the

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Speaker 4: Buddhist tradition would spend like a year. It usually took

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Speaker 4: a year before they started looking. So they're like, okay,

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Speaker 4: they have to die, they have to go through what's

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Speaker 4: called an in between stage of Bardo, and then they

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Speaker 4: have to come back and be reborn. So they give

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Speaker 4: them a year to do that, and then at the

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Speaker 4: end of that year, they start looking for their dreams

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Speaker 4: to see if they have any kind of mystical dreams

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Speaker 4: that tell them whether the Dia Lama has been reborn.

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Speaker 4: And so you have all of these meditators all around

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Speaker 4: the area watching their dreams, and then when their dreams

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Speaker 4: kind of sink up, they start talking to each other

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Speaker 4: and go, I think he might be in this area,

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Speaker 4: and then they have chats amongst themselves, and then traditionally

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Speaker 4: they sent a few months out to go and sit

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Speaker 4: next to a lake that's in Tibet that's a sacred lake,

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Speaker 4: and they'd say, okay, you sit there until you.

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Speaker 1: Have a vision of where he is.

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Speaker 4: But they won't be able to do that this time

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Speaker 4: because they're not don't have access.

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Speaker 3: To the lake.

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Speaker 4: So it's basically like all everyone gets together and they go, okay,

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Speaker 4: where is he. Then they go searching for kids that

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Speaker 4: are a year old born in that area, and then

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Speaker 4: they go up and they do questions with them as late.

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Speaker 4: So it's usually a kid that gets a reputation for

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Speaker 4: being special to start off with, and then they all

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Speaker 4: agree that one of them is the reincarnation and then

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Speaker 4: they bring the reincarnation back to the monastery and throw

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Speaker 4: in them as the new dale Lama.

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Speaker 2: When they're like one or two years old.

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Speaker 1: Usually they're about five or six, but because it takes

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Speaker 1: a while, right, you've got to get all your dreams synced.

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Speaker 4: Up, so it takes a few years for all of

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Speaker 4: that to come together. So usually they're about six or seven.

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Speaker 3: And do they believe that, you know, that is the

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Speaker 3: previous Dalai lama that's been reincarnated, So they've got the

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Speaker 3: same knowledge that the previous one.

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Speaker 4: Had, not quite the same knowledge, So this is super ticky,

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Speaker 4: So basically it's not the same knowledge.

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Speaker 1: In Budhish tradition, what continues after your diet is your.

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Speaker 4: Subtlest consciousness, and that is basically habits rather than knowledge.

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Speaker 4: So you have like predispositions to do certain things and

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Speaker 4: kind of have really subtle habits of mind. Some people,

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Speaker 4: like the dial Lamas, are supposed to be able to

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Speaker 4: be so developed in their mind that they can remember.

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Speaker 1: Past lives and things. But the main thing that continues

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Speaker 1: his habits and predispositions.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about the current Diala Lama. He's the fourteenth

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Speaker 3: I believe he's just turned ninety. Happy birthday to him.

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Speaker 3: If he's listening, Can you give me a bit of

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Speaker 3: a brief overview of his life? When did he assume

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Speaker 3: the role and what have been some of his standout achievements.

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Speaker 4: Right, So, he was recognized as the reincarnation of the

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Speaker 4: previous di Lama in the nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 1: That's a long time ago, and at that time there.

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Speaker 4: Was a lot of flux in the world, and the

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Speaker 4: previous Dilama had been mates with British imperialists in India,

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Speaker 4: so he learned all this stuff about.

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Speaker 1: He had a new car and everything.

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Speaker 4: So the little Dialama was bought from his house, which

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Speaker 4: was in a farm on the northeast edge of the

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Speaker 4: Tibetan Plateau, and brought into Laso, which is the capital

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Speaker 4: city of Tibet, to this omega building called the Ptala.

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Speaker 4: And he actually grew up in that building until he

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Speaker 4: was sixteen. And he talks about being really lonely and

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Speaker 4: making your friends with a mouse that lives there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it was kind of isolated, right, if you're there, like.

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Speaker 4: If you're supposed to be that special, people don't hang

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Speaker 4: out with you as much. So he got to hang

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Speaker 4: out with his brother, but he's pretty lonely. And then

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Speaker 4: when he was a teenager, he had a regent, like

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Speaker 4: someone ruling for him. But the Chinese said that they

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Speaker 4: were going to take over Tibet. The Chinese Communist Party

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Speaker 4: came to Parer and they said they were going to

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Speaker 4: take over Tibet. So he assumed the role of the

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Speaker 4: head of his nation as a sixteen year old, like

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Speaker 4: really young. And then he tried to tap to Mao

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Speaker 4: and he's actually kind of into communism and like, well,

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Speaker 4: I'd say he's a Kingsian, but that's just my perspective.

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Speaker 4: He tried to talk to Mao about social reform, but

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Speaker 4: then he MoU said religion was poison and he's like, okay,

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Speaker 4: this isn't going to work.

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Speaker 1: And then there was an uprising Interabat.

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Speaker 4: He fled to India as and he's still a teenager

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Speaker 4: and he's lived in exile in India ever since then.

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Speaker 4: And so his megaachievements since then, I'd say there's like

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Speaker 4: religious and political boats.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: Politically, he hasn't really got a chance to do much

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Speaker 4: except i'd say within the community in exile, he was

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Speaker 4: really intent on everyone getting.

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Speaker 1: Educated, so you have this process.

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Speaker 4: Of like when they came out of exile, it was

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Speaker 4: like five percent of the population of Tibetans were literate,

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Speaker 4: and now it's more like ninety five percent. And he's

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Speaker 4: done a lot to do that, and he's also tried

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Speaker 4: to bring in democracy and some of these things. The

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Speaker 4: other thing I'd say that he's most known for is

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Speaker 4: Tibet had a lot of different sex like you'd have

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Speaker 4: like Franciscans fighting.

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Speaker 1: With Jesuits, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: And he's tried to bring everyone together and make everyone

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Speaker 4: get along. And he's done a lot of into faith work.

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Speaker 4: So he's really good friends with Desmond Tutu and he's

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Speaker 4: met the pope and you know, like into faith work,

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Speaker 4: trying to make people get on together. But there's other

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Speaker 4: things that you'd wish he could have done more, and

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Speaker 4: it shows you the limits of power that he was.

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Speaker 4: He did make some attempts to lift women up, but

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Speaker 4: not as much as he should have. And like lots

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Speaker 4: of religious institutions, there's also issues of abuse and everything,

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Speaker 4: which he's tried to deal with in some ways, but

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Speaker 4: not as much as would have been good. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: like I honestly think that's more about his lack of

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Speaker 4: power more than him not caring.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, last week, the Dalai Lama made some comments

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Speaker 3: about his successor, comments that made headlines around the world.

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Speaker 3: Ruth will fill us in in just a moment. Welcome back.

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Speaker 3: I am chatting to doctor Ruth Gamble about the Dalai

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Speaker 3: Lama who last week made some comments which made headlines

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Speaker 3: around the world. Old the Dalai Lama has confirmed the

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Speaker 3: institution will continue and his successor will be chosen as

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Speaker 3: per tradition.

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Speaker 5: During an early ninetieth birthday celebration, the Spiritual Leader laid

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Speaker 5: out the framework for.

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Speaker 1: How the next Dalai Lama should be chosen. That's ending

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Speaker 1: speculation that he might be the last.

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Speaker 3: Person to hold the role.

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Speaker 5: Good Spiritual Leader said, a group that he has created

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Speaker 5: is the only authority that can recognize the next Dalai Lama,

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Speaker 5: but China claims that it has the authority to choose

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Speaker 5: his successor.

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Speaker 3: Ruth, can you explain to me what China's relationship is

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Speaker 3: like with the Dalai Lama and why would they want

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Speaker 3: the power to pick his success at right?

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Speaker 4: Okay, so you're dealing with here two completely different versions

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Speaker 4: of the world, right right, It's one of those things

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Speaker 4: where it's like, okay, the view of the Chinese State

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Speaker 4: and the view of the Dialama are like it's you know.

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Speaker 1: Like they're not looking at the same place.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is really it's really hard to get

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Speaker 4: your head around when you think about it. Right.

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Speaker 1: So, according to the Chinese.

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Speaker 4: State, they have this idea that Tibet was always a

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Speaker 4: part of China, which is you know, they're not a

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Speaker 4: lot of evidence, but that's what they believe.

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Speaker 1: So cool. And then they have the idea.

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Speaker 4: That the most horrible thing that you can be in

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Speaker 4: the Chinese nationalist idea is someone who wants to break

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Speaker 4: up the motherland, right, right.

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Speaker 1: So the worst thing you can do.

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Speaker 4: And it's weird because the word that they use in

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Speaker 4: Tibetan for it is the same word for divorser.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you're a divorcer. You're trying to split us up.

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Speaker 4: Right, And so they see him as what they call

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Speaker 4: a splittist, someone who's trying to break up China because

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Speaker 4: he has this idea of self representation for the Tibetan

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Speaker 4: people and he says he wants to do it within

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Speaker 4: China but have more power, right, And they're like, no,

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Speaker 4: you're a split us and that's the worst thing you

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Speaker 4: can be.

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Speaker 1: So they really don't like him, really don't like him.

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Speaker 4: They call him a snake and a wolf and all

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Speaker 4: of these like animal based names. So their idea is

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Speaker 4: if they can be in control of the next Lama,

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Speaker 4: then they all will be completely control of Tibet and

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Speaker 4: the idea of the splittest tendencies is going to be

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Speaker 4: gone because they'll be in charge of the dial Lama.

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Speaker 3: Well, as we heard in those newscrapes of the Dia

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Speaker 3: Lama last week, said that a group he created will

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Speaker 3: recognize the next dial Lama and he laid out a

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Speaker 3: framework for that.

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Speaker 2: So what did he say? How will it work?

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Speaker 4: So see, this is interesting because that's it's not a

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Speaker 4: new group.

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Speaker 1: He's basically he's had this.

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Speaker 4: Kind of private office. The dia Lamas have had a

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Speaker 4: private office. It's called a Gandenportraan Labroun. That was like Tibetan.

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Speaker 4: So don't worry about it, ah, that goes back to

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Speaker 4: like the forty fifteen hundreds. Right, it's been going for

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Speaker 4: a long time. But when they came into India, they

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Speaker 4: had to recognize it in Indian law.

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Speaker 1: So the way that they recognize it as as a

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Speaker 1: charitable trust.

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Speaker 4: Right, so it's kind of like a charitable version of

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Speaker 4: this one office that's been going for for six hundred years.

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Speaker 1: So he said that office is.

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Speaker 4: The only people that can recognize the next Dilama. They've

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Speaker 4: been the only people who've recognizes the dialamas since the

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Speaker 4: sixteen hundreds, right, So it's not actually new, it's just

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Speaker 4: he's trying to get the word out there because he

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Speaker 4: will have to compete with China saying they're the only ones.

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Speaker 4: The Chinese government's going to say they're the only ones

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Speaker 4: who can recognize the dialama. So he's trying to get

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Speaker 4: it out the word to as many people as possible.

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Speaker 4: Don't accept the one they pick, only except the one

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Speaker 4: that the Dialama's private office or charitable trust recognizes.

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Speaker 1: That makes it he's going to have competing di lamas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well how is he going to do it?

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Speaker 3: First of all, did they give any tips and tricks

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Speaker 3: to everyone about how they're going to know who is

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Speaker 3: the next dia Lama?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: So it's some of this is interesting because you know

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Speaker 4: how I said about the non sectarian thing that he's

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Speaker 4: been doing. So he's got he's kind of lined it up.

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Speaker 4: So all of the major rimpuchees and lama's little bit

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Speaker 4: head teachers from all of the Himalia basically are going

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Speaker 4: to come together and they're going to speak for the

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Speaker 4: next Dilama, which is a bit new. And then apart

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Speaker 4: from that, it's going to follow all of the protocols

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Speaker 4: that were usually done in finding them with the dreams

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Speaker 4: and the looking and all of that stuff. But the

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Speaker 4: thing that he specifically said is he's not going to

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Speaker 4: be born. He said he's going to be born in

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Speaker 4: the free world, which that's a bad translation. It basically

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Speaker 4: means anywhere that's not authoritarian, right, So he's basically saying

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Speaker 4: he's going to be born where there's not an authoritarian government.

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Speaker 3: So that's a slap in the face to China. I mean,

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Speaker 3: so China want to be able to recognize his successor.

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Speaker 3: But he's come out and said this other group is

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Speaker 3: going to do it. You mentioned yes a second ago.

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Speaker 3: Is it possible we could have two Dalai Lamas.

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Speaker 4: I think it's pretty much one hundred percent certain we're

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Speaker 4: going to have two Dalai Alama.

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Speaker 2: How will that work?

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Speaker 4: Well, one will operate within the People's Republic of China. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and the other one will operate outside. That's basically her.

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Speaker 4: And we've got a precedent for this because the number

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Speaker 4: two guy in the Tibetan hierarchy is someone called the Panchin.

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Speaker 1: Lama, and he.

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Speaker 4: Was the Dialomma recognized a Panchon Lamber in nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 4: and the Chinese government did too. And the one that

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Speaker 4: dial Lama recognized was in Tibet and just disappeared and

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Speaker 4: no one's heard of him ever since. He got kind

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Speaker 4: of kidnapped as a six year old and no one's

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Speaker 4: really heard of what happened to him. And the one

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Speaker 4: that the Chinese recognized is part of the Chinese government

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Speaker 4: gets a lot of respect from the government. And actually,

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, the Debenans have cruited pretty cranky that

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Speaker 4: the Chinese recognized him, but he seems to have been

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Speaker 4: doing a bit of good.

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Speaker 1: As well as working with the government.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of bit murky, So I kind of think

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Speaker 4: that that's what's going to happen with the Diallama. You're

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Speaker 4: going to get one picked by the Chinese state who

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Speaker 4: will have a lot of respect and influence, at least

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Speaker 4: amongst the Chinese government. In the People's Republic of China,

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Speaker 4: and then another one picked by the Dalai Lamba's office,

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Speaker 4: and the high teachers from that are based in the

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Speaker 4: Himalia and India, and they are going to be the

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Speaker 4: one that have the most influence outside of the People's Republic.

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Speaker 4: And then the Tibetans inside the People's Republic will secretly

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Speaker 4: like him.

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, there is so much happening. Yeah, totally does question.

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Speaker 3: Then you mentioned those Tibetans that are still in Tibet

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Speaker 3: or you know, technically in part of China. How important

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Speaker 3: is the Dalai Lama two younger Tibetans today, Does he

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Speaker 3: still have a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of influence or is that kind of dwindling.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's hard to say. I'd say he still does.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's the same thing.

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Speaker 4: Well, you have any kind of you're dealing with, like

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Speaker 4: some other country coming along and saying you have to

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Speaker 4: you have to follow what we say, right and like

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Speaker 4: we have presidents for that in Australia.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And as soon as you lift.

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Speaker 4: That repression a little bit, then people tend to flock

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Speaker 4: back to it. Right, So there's still you still have

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Speaker 4: people sneaking up to you and saying in you know

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Speaker 4: has a dial arma doing and you still there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of love for him still. I'd say amongst the

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Speaker 4: Tibetan people within the People's Republic, it's not able to

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Speaker 4: be expressed, but it gets passed down from generation, and

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Speaker 4: there's people like that associate being a Buddhist with being

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Speaker 4: a devotee of the dial arma as well. But there

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Speaker 4: is a lot of government control stopping people doing it,

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Speaker 4: and they're even doing things like sending people away to

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Speaker 4: schools like we did in Australia, you know, taking kids

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Speaker 4: from home and putting them in colone your boarding.

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Speaker 1: Schools and stuff.

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Speaker 4: So there's an attempt to try and stop people being

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Speaker 4: as Tibetan, but there's also resistance to that.

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Speaker 3: Well. This has been a fascinating chat, doctor Ruth. Thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for filling me in on the Dalai Lama.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I've kind of got my head around

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Speaker 3: it now, so I appreciate you coming on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: You're very welcome.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I

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Speaker 3: hope you found it as interesting as I did. I

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Speaker 3: will chat to you again tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: Soya follow or subscribe to from the newsroom, wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts,