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Speaker 1: The Climate Change Authority has released its Pathway Review talking

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Speaker 1: about the way to get to net zero emissions by

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Speaker 1: twenty fifty, and they're looking at a whole heap of

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Speaker 1: things agriculture and land, environment, buildings, electricity, energy industry and

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Speaker 1: waste transport and how did decarbonize all of that. It

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Speaker 1: looks at barriers, puts up strategies and actions to address.

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Speaker 1: The chair is Matt Kean. Matt Keen, good morning.

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Speaker 2: Matthew, thank you for having me on the program.

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Speaker 1: You've released a list of concepts here to help Australia

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Speaker 1: get to net zero. I just wonder how practical some

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Speaker 1: of them are. But perhaps the broad some I do

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Speaker 1: agree with, by the way, and some I look at

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Speaker 1: the gas proposals, we'll talk about that, But the broader

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Speaker 1: issue to me is we are likely to fall on

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Speaker 1: the forty three percent below two thousand and five levels

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Speaker 1: by twenty thirty. Why would we achieve net zero by

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Speaker 1: twenty fifty when we're behind already.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think what the report clearly shows that there

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Speaker 2: is a pathway to get to zero twenty fifty, but

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Speaker 2: it is going to be hard. What we need to

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Speaker 2: focus on is the things that we can do right

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Speaker 2: now to get on with the transition, and a number

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Speaker 2: of those technologies can be rolled out today. Things like

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Speaker 2: renewable energy, for example, we know can be rolled out

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Speaker 2: and do. It's a bit to help reduce missions, but

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Speaker 2: it also has the benefit of being the cheapest form

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Speaker 2: of energy, so that will help households, mums and dads,

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Speaker 2: businesses and grow our economy. So where there's technologies that

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Speaker 2: can be deployed at speed and scale that can help

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Speaker 2: us decarbonize, we should do that. But obviously there are

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Speaker 2: some hard to abate sections of the economy. We need

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Speaker 2: to invest in more research and development so we can

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Speaker 2: help solve those problems later down the track.

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Speaker 1: All right, you talk about rolling out renewables, so let's

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Speaker 1: look at that. I mean, there are so many people

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Speaker 1: skeptical about the cost of this and the argument that

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Speaker 1: it really is the cheapest that might be when it's

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Speaker 1: all there in terms of absorbing power and turning it

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Speaker 1: into energy, but the rollout is so expensive. We had

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Speaker 1: the Deputy Prime Minister a couple of months back, so

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Speaker 1: he couldn't rule out it wouldn't be over a trillion

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Speaker 1: dollars for goodness sake.

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Speaker 2: Well, look a emo the Australian Energy Market Operator has

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Speaker 2: done a thorough analysis. Now these are not just some

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Speaker 2: random people, these are the engineers that run the energy system,

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Speaker 2: the CSIRO, Australia's peak scientific and economic body. They have

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Speaker 2: also done analysis. They've looked at all the ways to

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Speaker 2: replace our existing electricity generation and they clearly show that

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Speaker 2: renewables backed up by firming with new transmission being built

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Speaker 2: is the cheapest way of delivering reliable electricity now and

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Speaker 2: into the future. It's far cheaper than coal, it's far

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Speaker 2: cheaper than gas, and it's far cheaper than nuclear. So

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Speaker 2: we've got to get on with the job of rolling

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Speaker 2: out renewables because that will help our environment, but that

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Speaker 2: will put downward pressure on electricity bills and that's a

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Speaker 2: good thing for everyone.

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Speaker 1: You've said before nuclear should stay on the table. It's

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Speaker 1: got to be considered as part of the mix. Potentially

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Speaker 1: at some times you still hold that view.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, obviously the report says that we should

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Speaker 2: be looking at opportunities to deliver clean, reliable electricity, and

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Speaker 2: right now the best opportunity to do exactly that is

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Speaker 2: rolling out firmed up renewables at scale. That's what the

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Speaker 2: report clearly says those technologies are already there. We can

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Speaker 2: get on with the job. We don't have to wait

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Speaker 2: twenty years before nuclear can come online. We can start

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Speaker 2: doing things now and it has the add of benefit

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Speaker 2: of helping put downward pressure on electricity bills. The more

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Speaker 2: electricity supply you're build into the system, the cheaper people's

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Speaker 2: bills would be. And that's what everyone wants to hear

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Speaker 2: during this cost of living challenge that we're seeing the.

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Speaker 1: Move to get rid of gas going to households and businesses.

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Speaker 1: As we know Victoria and the Act, they've banned connections

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Speaker 1: in new buildings to that effect. Yet the report looks

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Speaker 1: at a mix of gas into the future. Are we

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Speaker 1: having two bites of the cherry here a hypocritical we

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Speaker 1: can't have it to homes, but we need it to

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Speaker 1: power the system up.

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Speaker 2: No. I think the report looks at the practicalities of

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Speaker 2: delivering reliable electricity. We refer to the Australian Energy Market

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Speaker 2: Operators work that says that in order to have more renewables,

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Speaker 2: you're going to need a bit more gas in the system.

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Speaker 2: We recognize that we've got to have reliable energy and

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Speaker 2: today the cheapest form of reliable energy is renewables firmed

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Speaker 2: up with things like gas. Now. That will change into

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Speaker 2: the future as technologies by hydrogen come down the cost curve.

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Speaker 2: But today we've got to focus on what we can

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Speaker 2: do to reduce our emissions as much as possible while

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Speaker 2: still delivering reliable and cheap energy, and that's firm renewable.

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Speaker 2: So gas does have role to play in the future.

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Speaker 2: Obviously we need to be investing in cleaner forms of molecules,

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Speaker 2: things by a hydrogen and that's exactly what the report.

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Speaker 1: Sets out, all right, reliable and cheap. Now on the whole,

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Speaker 1: it is reliable. We know that we live in a

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Speaker 1: great country in terms of flicking on the switch, and

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Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of the time across the year you

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Speaker 1: get a result when you do that. The power comes on,

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Speaker 1: the lights are there, and everything works hunky dooring most

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Speaker 1: of the time for most people. Cheap I'm not so

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Speaker 1: sure about, because no one's bill. If I open the

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Speaker 1: lines and so told me, who's got cheaper electricity in

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Speaker 1: the last I don't know five years, hardly anyone's going

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Speaker 1: to call in. Everyone rings in telling me how much

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Speaker 1: more they're paying for power. My bill just came in

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Speaker 1: recently for thirteen hundred for over the winter period, and

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Speaker 1: you know that's at the top of the chain as

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Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned. Over the last few years, it's

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Speaker 1: not getting cheaper. And the cost again, the cost of

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Speaker 1: rolling out renewables, well, it's not free. We're paying for

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Speaker 1: it as taxpayers and we're paying for it again through

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Speaker 1: our electricity bills. There's nothing cheap about renewables, Matthew.

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Speaker 2: You're hitting the nail on the head when it comes

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Speaker 2: to people's electricity bright bills. They are going up and

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Speaker 2: it's a pretty simple equation as to why they're going

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Speaker 2: up when you've got less supply in the system. And

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Speaker 2: don't forget our coal fire power stations are aging and

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Speaker 2: they're coming out of the system. We need to replace them.

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Speaker 2: You put more supply into the system, you get lower bills.

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Speaker 2: And that's why we're need to build more renewables right now.

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Speaker 2: That will put down with pressure on prices and has

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Speaker 2: the add benefit of meaning that Australia won't be exposed

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Speaker 2: to international price shocks. Recently, we've seen the price of

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Speaker 2: coal go up by around three hundred percent because of

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Speaker 2: Putin's illegal invasion of the Ukraine. That's pushed the price

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Speaker 2: of coal up. That feeds through to wholesale electricity prices,

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Speaker 2: and that feeds through to household bills. So renewables gets

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Speaker 2: us away from those international commodity shops. We've got some

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Speaker 2: of the most abundant renewable resources anywhere on the planet.

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Speaker 2: You build more renewables, you get more supply, you put

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Speaker 2: down with pressure on bills. It's a pretty simple equation.

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Speaker 2: And it's not just me saying that as a former

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Speaker 2: energy minister. That's the CSIO saying that. That's the Australian

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Speaker 2: energy market operator. Energy policy needs to be about engineering

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Speaker 2: and economics, not ideology, and if you're focusing on what

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Speaker 2: can be delivered at the cheapest costs, then it's firmed

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Speaker 2: up renewables in daylight.

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Speaker 1: Sadly, I can go back to John Olsen here, Premier

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Speaker 1: of South Australia in the mid nineties, because I went

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Speaker 1: to a media conference I recall back then with the

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Speaker 1: Premier then unveiling some of the initial big solar projects

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Speaker 1: that we had put online, and he was telling us

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Speaker 1: then this will help bring down power prices. Still waiting

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Speaker 1: for that to happen. This is thirty years ago. Nothing's

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Speaker 1: happened in that space.

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Speaker 2: Well, the technology has been coming down the cost curve dramatically.

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Speaker 2: I mean, in the last few years the cost of

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Speaker 2: building solar or constructing solar panels has come down twenty

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Speaker 2: percent a year. That's a long way down from where

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Speaker 2: it was in John Olson's days. Look, the technology is changing,

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Speaker 2: it's coming down the cost curve. Why you need to

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Speaker 2: get on with the job of rolling it out at scale.

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Speaker 2: That will help mums and dads, that will help Australian businesses,

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Speaker 2: that'll grow our economy and also do our bit for

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Speaker 2: the environment. So no one stands to win from the

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Speaker 2: transition to a lower carbon global economy than Australia, more

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Speaker 2: than Australia. We've got some of the best renewal resources

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Speaker 2: anywhere in the planet. That means cheaper electricity bills, that

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Speaker 2: means supporting our industry, that means new jobs, an investment.

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Speaker 2: We've got to grab these opportunities so that we can

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Speaker 2: be an economic powerhouse in a changing economy.

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Speaker 1: All right. Now, Look, some of the other issues are

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Speaker 1: housing and I totally agree with this. We need smarter

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Speaker 1: housing in Australia, which is one of the things the

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Speaker 1: report calls for. I don't know how many times you

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Speaker 1: look at new builds in new areas where we ignore

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Speaker 1: that the basic principles that guided Australians one hundred odds

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Speaker 1: and plus years ago, where they would build verandas and

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Speaker 1: porches to keep the house shady, particularly north facing. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, if that was where the front was the windows,

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Speaker 1: there was a veranda in the porch, even if it

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Speaker 1: wasn't north facing. We ignore that now, just a blank

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Speaker 1: wall and a narrow window, whatever it might be. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the house is going to heat up and then we've

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Speaker 1: got to power it to call it down. It's so dumb.

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Speaker 1: We need to get back to some old fashioned principles

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Speaker 1: of building houses.

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Speaker 2: That's right matth here. I think there's lots of opportunities

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Speaker 2: to help make sure that our houses are more efficient

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Speaker 2: in how they use energy or produce waste. That will

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Speaker 2: not only be good for the environment, but again it'll

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Speaker 2: be good for household bills. If you're using less heating,

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Speaker 2: if you've got more shade things like that, then you're

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Speaker 2: not relying on powering your air conditioners as much. For example,

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Speaker 2: So you know, some of the oldest, old ideas you

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Speaker 2: know they're not you. We can get back to them

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Speaker 2: and we'll get a better outcome for your bill and

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Speaker 2: also for the environment.

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Speaker 1: All right, and you want us to eat less red meat,

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Speaker 1: more kangaroo, more lab grown meat. Do you think Australians

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Speaker 1: are ready for lab grown meat?

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Speaker 2: No? I certainly don't want anyone to eat less meat.

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Speaker 2: I love my meat myself. What we clearly say in

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Speaker 2: the report is that livestock numbers in Australia will continue

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Speaker 2: to remain stable, in fact increase. What will decrease over

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Speaker 2: time is the emissions from those livestock because of interesting

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Speaker 2: technologies like asparagopsis. That's been a technology developed by our

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Speaker 2: very own CSIRO, which is a feed supplement for our cattle,

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Speaker 2: for example, which helps reduce the methane they emit. So

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Speaker 2: we're not suggesting anyone change their diets. We're not suggesting

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Speaker 2: anyone change there. You know, we're not telling anyone what

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Speaker 2: to eat, and we'll never do that. What we're saying

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Speaker 2: is that because we're investing in new technologies, we'll be

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Speaker 2: able to help our agricultural sector, our meat and livestock

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Speaker 2: be able to reduce their emissions as well. But let

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Speaker 2: me assure you that the modeling in the report is

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Speaker 2: based on the number of livestock in Australia remaining steady

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Speaker 2: and in fact growing until twenty fifty, so everyone can

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Speaker 2: rest easy. And the people pushing that line are just

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Speaker 2: spreading falsehoods in misinformation and I don't think that serves

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Speaker 2: this debate or our national interest in any way.

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Speaker 1: Just finally, a lot of this hinges on people's takeup

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Speaker 1: of evs. Yet sales have slowed around the world, and

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Speaker 1: you even get car companies backtracking on some of their

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Speaker 1: EV targets and conversion to solely going down the EV path.

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Speaker 1: It seems to have slowed. The appetite has definitely waned.

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Speaker 1: Is that concerning in terms of meeting targets moving forward?

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Speaker 2: I think obviously with the economic conditions and also some

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Speaker 2: of the other challenges globally, we are seeing the uptake

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Speaker 2: of EV slowing in the short term. But let me

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Speaker 2: be very clear, a number of the big car manufacturers

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Speaker 2: have committed to going fully electric, and disappointingly, Australia doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a car industry. I mean South Australia was the

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Speaker 2: heartland for our car industry and it's very sad that

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Speaker 2: that's no longer the case. So we have to take

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Speaker 2: the cars that are sold into Australia, and increasingly the

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Speaker 2: big car manufacturers. You think Toyota, you think the European

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Speaker 2: car manufacturers, they're all moving to EV. So eventually the

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Speaker 2: cars being sold into this market here in Australia will

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Speaker 2: be EV. Now today there are a lot of choices

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Speaker 2: around EV. There's fifty six models in the market and

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Speaker 2: they're coming down the cost curves, so eventually the uptake

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Speaker 2: of evs will be far greater than what it currently is.

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Speaker 2: The trajectory is very clear. The car manufacturers are producing evs,

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Speaker 2: they'll start being sold in increasing numbers into the Australian

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Speaker 2: market and eventually the uptake will be significant enough to

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Speaker 2: have an impact on our transport emission. So we're modeled

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Speaker 2: that in our report and we're not suggesting anyone change

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Speaker 2: their habits. We're just suggesting that international trends will start

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Speaker 2: to see adjustments in what's sold into this market.

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Speaker 1: Matt Kean, chair of the Climate Change Authority Federal Government

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Speaker 1: Task Force, thank you so much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Matthew, thank you so much for having me and look

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Speaker 2: forward to coming on the program again soon