WEBVTT - Your Neurodivergent Guide to Money 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.060 This series is brought to you by LNG, helping you 0:00:03.060 --> 0:00:04.980 build a future that's a little bit richer. 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:09.960 Hello and welcome to A Little Bit Richer, with me, 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.840 Iona Bain, brought to you by Legal and General. In 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:17.160 today's episode, we're talking about something that affects millions of people, 0:00:17.460 --> 0:00:20.670 but often doesn't get discussed enough in the context of money, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.290 and that's neurodiversity. Around one in five people in the 0:00:25.290 --> 0:00:29.160 UK are neurodivergent, which means their brains work a little 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:33.690 differently from what's considered typical. Neurodiversity is a term that 0:00:33.690 --> 0:00:39.089 covers ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and dyscalculia. And for many, it shapes 0:00:39.090 --> 0:00:42.330 how we think, feel, and behave when it comes to finances. 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:46.559 Research shows neurodivergent people are more likely to face financial 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.920 anxiety and often lack confidence when it comes to managing 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.090 their money. Joining me today is the brilliant Crystal McGilvrey. 0:00:54.300 --> 0:00:57.990 She's an accountant, campaigner, and speaker who was diagnosed with 0:00:57.990 --> 0:01:02.070 dyslexia in her thirties and also lives with ADHD. Crystal 0:01:02.070 --> 0:01:05.370 has a master's in behavioral and economic science and is 0:01:05.370 --> 0:01:08.610 an expert in decision- making and behavioral finance. So she 0:01:08.610 --> 0:01:13.260 is the perfect person for us to chat to today. Welcome, Crystal. 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:14.220 Hi. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.840 Can you explain more about neurodiversity and how this might 0:01:18.900 --> 0:01:21.750 affect how someone manages their money? 0:01:21.810 --> 0:01:26.430 Yeah, for sure. So neurodiversity basically is a difference in 0:01:26.430 --> 0:01:30.030 our brain. Neurodivergents have a different maybe structure in the 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.760 brain or the way their brain reacts or operates is 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.970 slightly different. If you are neurodivergent, you are likely to be 0:01:35.970 --> 0:01:39.420 different in how you think, feel, and act. And if 0:01:39.420 --> 0:01:41.880 you think about money and the role it plays in 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.300 our lives, it then has a double rolling effect on that. 0:01:45.300 --> 0:01:49.770 So it's a very profound impact on pretty much every 0:01:49.770 --> 0:01:52.320 aspect of how you interact with your finances? 0:01:52.380 --> 0:01:56.610 100%. Yeah. We're talking about managing and budgeting, et cetera. 0:01:56.610 --> 0:01:59.040 And if you don't have systems in place to help 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.950 you build wealth and manage your money on a day to day, 0:02:01.950 --> 0:02:03.300 it can be really quite hard. 0:02:03.420 --> 0:02:07.170 What are some of the typical money related challenges that 0:02:07.230 --> 0:02:13.620 neurodiverse people face and how might these differ between ADHD, autism, 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:15.480 dyslexia and dyscalculia? 0:02:15.510 --> 0:02:19.169 Top line, we're talking about things such as emotional dysregulation 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:22.829 or executive functioning. This is where it impacts us. For example, 0:02:23.070 --> 0:02:27.030 executive functioning. We're talking about planning and organizing our finances, 0:02:27.330 --> 0:02:30.450 and what you might see as someone struggling with budgeting 0:02:30.690 --> 0:02:33.360 and staying within the parameters that they've set for their 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.290 finances and maybe they impulse spend instead. And that's when 0:02:37.290 --> 0:02:40.139 we go back to things such as emotional dysregulation. When 0:02:40.139 --> 0:02:42.240 you are maybe sad or even really happy, you want 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.329 to reward yourself and that spike you get really excited 0:02:45.690 --> 0:02:48.329 and then you realize you've spent your savings for your home. 0:02:48.690 --> 0:02:52.650 Or if we think about something like autism, maybe shutdowns 0:02:52.650 --> 0:02:56.130 or meltdowns means you avoid your finances completely and then 0:02:56.130 --> 0:02:57.600 that can cause a ripple effect. 0:02:57.690 --> 0:03:02.490 And also when it comes to something like dyslexia or dyscalculia, 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.210 can that also be problematic in terms of your finances? 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.750 Yeah, for sure. If we think about dyscalculia, that's all 0:03:09.750 --> 0:03:13.710 about numbers. Although I like to talk about finances not 0:03:13.710 --> 0:03:16.410 being a mathematical thing as such, right? It's more about 0:03:16.410 --> 0:03:19.650 the managing, the planning, thinking about the future, investing for 0:03:19.650 --> 0:03:23.579 later life, but if you've got a fear or you 0:03:23.580 --> 0:03:26.730 avoid numbers, that really makes it hard for you to 0:03:26.730 --> 0:03:28.980 start thinking about what you're doing with your money for 0:03:28.980 --> 0:03:33.150 later in life or even today. And then dyslexia, writing 0:03:33.150 --> 0:03:37.410 or doing any kind of financial management when it comes 0:03:37.410 --> 0:03:39.660 to your money, dyslexia shows up. 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:44.010 And you've been very open about your diagnosis of ADHD 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:48.810 and dyslexia. How have those things specifically affected your ability 0:03:48.930 --> 0:03:49.680 to manage money? 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.420 So I'm an accountant, right? Which some people might be 0:03:54.420 --> 0:03:54.930 surprised by. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:56.550 100%. Which is why I laugh. 0:03:56.970 --> 0:04:00.630 I'm a chartered accountant, I've got a bachelor's in financial mathematics. 0:04:00.630 --> 0:04:03.150 I'm very number heavy. But I think what we need 0:04:03.150 --> 0:04:07.140 to understand here is neurodivergence is on a spectrum, and 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.960 the way it's diagnosed is there's a range of traits. And 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.230 when you're assessed, it's about you being diagnosed based on 0:04:13.230 --> 0:04:16.020 you meeting a criteria of having a certain number of 0:04:16.020 --> 0:04:19.890 traits in a certain area. So with me being dyslexic 0:04:19.890 --> 0:04:22.380 for example, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to struggle 0:04:22.380 --> 0:04:26.760 with numbers. My dyslexia actually isn't around auditory, so I 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.549 can still really thrive when it comes to numbers and 0:04:29.550 --> 0:04:32.790 I don't avoid them. But where I do struggle and 0:04:32.790 --> 0:04:35.400 I've had to build systems, which is the managing and planning. 0:04:35.850 --> 0:04:39.690 For example, when I worked in an organization, I had 0:04:39.690 --> 0:04:42.870 the structure. I have weekly deadlines, monthly deadlines, so I 0:04:42.870 --> 0:04:46.200 was really okay functioning in that environment. As soon as 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.620 I've gone and worked for myself now, straight away I 0:04:49.620 --> 0:04:51.630 was like, how do I do this? 0:04:51.660 --> 0:04:53.730 I mean, when you're self- employed, that is hard at 0:04:53.730 --> 0:04:54.690 the best of times. 0:04:54.930 --> 0:04:55.260 Exactly. 0:04:55.260 --> 0:04:56.760 But it must have been particularly tricky for you. 0:04:57.150 --> 0:05:00.060 It was, and I hadn't been diagnosed then, but I 0:05:00.060 --> 0:05:03.270 did notice straight away that I was really messy in 0:05:03.270 --> 0:05:05.940 my organization and it took a while for me to 0:05:05.940 --> 0:05:08.940 realize I need structure. So that's one thing I help 0:05:08.940 --> 0:05:12.060 people with is building that routine, that system, because that's 0:05:12.060 --> 0:05:14.430 going to be your foundation for you to then launch 0:05:14.430 --> 0:05:16.440 pad and do the other things you need to do. 0:05:16.589 --> 0:05:19.740 What you're saying really resonates with me because I was 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.640 diagnosed with dyscalculia when I was at school, and one 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.700 thing that frustrates me now is if I tell people 0:05:26.700 --> 0:05:28.799 what I do and if I then talk about my 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.470 struggles with numbers and maths, they then say, " Well, how 0:05:31.470 --> 0:05:34.050 can you then be good with money?" Do you get 0:05:34.050 --> 0:05:38.430 this sometimes where people will perhaps write off those who 0:05:38.430 --> 0:05:42.570 have neurodivergence as maybe not being able to get on 0:05:42.570 --> 0:05:45.600 top of their finances? Is that something that you find frustrating? 0:05:45.750 --> 0:05:50.100 Yeah, 100%. Whether it's people in general or the individual themselves, 0:05:50.100 --> 0:05:53.400 them knowing that they are neurodivergent and the struggles they've 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.610 had in the past can be really quite hard to manage. 0:05:56.670 --> 0:06:00.180 And that demotivate you to even start walking the path 0:06:00.180 --> 0:06:02.310 to addressing where you are different. 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.710 Because you've already started labeling yourself in that way. 0:06:04.711 --> 0:06:07.350 Exactly. When it comes to neurodivergence, it's not that there's 0:06:07.350 --> 0:06:10.320 a problem with your brain, it's actually the systems and 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.050 products and services that exist in our society today have 0:06:13.050 --> 0:06:15.900 not been tailored for you. And instead what you need 0:06:15.900 --> 0:06:18.659 to do is identify, okay, how does my brain work? 0:06:18.660 --> 0:06:20.790 What do I find really easy? And then what systems 0:06:20.790 --> 0:06:24.000 can I put in place to help me win when 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:24.930 it comes to finance? 0:06:25.230 --> 0:06:29.039 Many people who have neurodivergence talk about the frustration of 0:06:29.130 --> 0:06:31.560 having that intention to manage their money better, but not 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.830 being able to follow through. So what's behind that? 0:06:35.190 --> 0:06:38.550 The word lazy comes up a lot, or people label 0:06:38.610 --> 0:06:41.580 people as lazy. And so when it comes to your finances, 0:06:41.580 --> 0:06:44.070 you might have all the best interest in the world 0:06:44.070 --> 0:06:46.650 to say, right, I'm going to do this and feel 0:06:46.650 --> 0:06:49.890 quite motivated about it. When it comes to our brain 0:06:49.890 --> 0:06:54.540 and things such as dopamine and distraction and struggling to 0:06:54.690 --> 0:06:57.810 control yourself, that's down to your brain in the way 0:06:57.810 --> 0:07:00.180 it's wired. So it's not that you're lazy and you 0:07:00.180 --> 0:07:02.820 just give up. There's actually something going on in your mind, 0:07:02.820 --> 0:07:05.520 and that's where it's really important to put systems in 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.510 place and tools that can help you get things done. 0:07:09.900 --> 0:07:13.350 And how do we become kinder to ourselves if we 0:07:13.350 --> 0:07:16.350 are neurodivergent and we have had those struggles with money? 0:07:16.410 --> 0:07:18.750 I talk about financial empathy a lot. So that's the 0:07:18.750 --> 0:07:19.291 number one thing. 0:07:19.291 --> 0:07:19.531 The number one thing. 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.010 Before you even get into strategies is be kind to yourself. 0:07:23.070 --> 0:07:25.560 I've got a coaching program and I take people through, 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.830 and before we even start talking numbers, it's all about 0:07:28.830 --> 0:07:32.640 you building up the confidence within yourself and your belief 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.490 in your ability to get there. Because if you're coming 0:07:35.490 --> 0:07:37.590 in and you've lost some money or you're not where 0:07:37.590 --> 0:07:39.840 your friends are, you just don't feel good. So you're 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.330 not going to be in the right space to be like, " Okay, yeah, 0:07:42.330 --> 0:07:44.580 let's put a budget in place. Yep, let's start saving." 0:07:44.910 --> 0:07:47.520 You're going to have this negative thought cycle, and instead 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.460 it's realizing there's nothing wrong with your brain, it's just 0:07:50.460 --> 0:07:53.490 we haven't quite discovered what works for you. And going 0:07:53.490 --> 0:07:57.090 through that journey, then you're able and open to reframe 0:07:57.090 --> 0:07:59.160 your view of you and money. And then it becomes 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.520 really exciting, because it's almost like your problem solving and trying 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.680 to figure out, okay, this works for me and I 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:06.030 can make it fun here. 0:08:06.090 --> 0:08:09.420 It's about trying to get those aha moments where suddenly 0:08:09.420 --> 0:08:14.010 people will understand how to view their neurodivergence in a 0:08:14.010 --> 0:08:17.490 new light almost and see it as an opportunity and something 0:08:17.490 --> 0:08:18.480 that they can work with. 0:08:18.540 --> 0:08:21.030 It's a reframe. That's what it is. And then it 0:08:21.030 --> 0:08:23.700 allows you to go down this different path when it 0:08:23.700 --> 0:08:26.610 comes to your finances and see that actually, oh, maybe 0:08:26.610 --> 0:08:29.130 I could buy a home one day, or maybe I 0:08:29.130 --> 0:08:31.050 could build up an emergency fund, or maybe I could 0:08:31.050 --> 0:08:33.990 start investing. That becomes accessible to you. 0:08:34.530 --> 0:08:36.780 That's lovely. Kind of opening up those possibilities. 0:08:36.780 --> 0:08:37.260 Precisely. 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.860 So let's talk about some practical ways that neurodiverse people 0:08:40.860 --> 0:08:44.070 can manage their spending day to day, because that must 0:08:44.070 --> 0:08:47.459 be a big challenge, making sure that you can deal 0:08:47.460 --> 0:08:53.130 with impulse spending, emotional purchases, forgetfulness, those types of day- to- 0:08:53.130 --> 0:08:56.520 day challenges. What do you recommend in terms of practical strategies? 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.699 One thing that I know people love are certain banking apps 0:08:59.700 --> 0:09:02.099 that alerts you when you've spent some money. I think 0:09:02.100 --> 0:09:04.200 it's a really great reminder, because it's so easy for us 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:08.220 to forget about money. Money is now a card. It's 0:09:08.220 --> 0:09:10.710 a bit of plastic in your hand. And when we 0:09:10.710 --> 0:09:13.350 think about the science and what's happening there when you 0:09:13.350 --> 0:09:16.110 spend with cash compared to spending with a card, the 0:09:16.110 --> 0:09:18.689 part of our brain that's associated with pain lights up 0:09:18.690 --> 0:09:21.929 more so when we spend with money. It's really quite fascinating. 0:09:21.929 --> 0:09:26.490 I didn't know that. Because intuitively I do feel more 0:09:26.490 --> 0:09:29.550 pained when I have to hand over a tenner compared 0:09:29.550 --> 0:09:30.839 to when I just tap my card. 0:09:30.870 --> 0:09:33.840 Yeah, because it's a disassociation, right? You don't have to 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.240 think about what's actually going on there. But yeah, a 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.150 banking app that pings when money has gone out is 0:09:39.150 --> 0:09:41.819 such a great reminder to think about my budget or 0:09:41.820 --> 0:09:44.429 what am I doing here. Things such as having different 0:09:44.429 --> 0:09:47.760 pots or different bank accounts even. So what I like 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.829 to encourage is you have a bank account or a 0:09:49.830 --> 0:09:51.780 pot that is purely for your bills. 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.059 So a pot, just explain how that works? 0:09:54.390 --> 0:09:57.300 For example, Monzo, I think Styling as well. You can 0:09:57.300 --> 0:09:59.880 set up your bank account and separate your money into 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:02.040 different sections within the one bank account, which is really 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.340 quite cool. But that allows you to then separate your income, 0:10:05.340 --> 0:10:08.970 for example, into those pots and then allocate bills to 0:10:08.970 --> 0:10:11.640 those different areas. And what that means is you don't 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.910 have to worry about spending and not being able to 0:10:14.910 --> 0:10:17.640 pay a bill and then having to borrow in maybe 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.270 unsavory circumstances to be able to cover your day- to- day. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:23.189 And then you've got this other pot, which is maybe 0:10:23.190 --> 0:10:25.470 for the fun stuff and you can be free and 0:10:25.770 --> 0:10:29.010 allow your Impulsive desires to have fun. 0:10:29.070 --> 0:10:31.470 Yes. So it's not about removing all the fun, it's 0:10:31.470 --> 0:10:33.059 just about putting the boundaries in place. 0:10:33.090 --> 0:10:33.450 Yes. 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.870 And also when it comes to paying bills, can organizing 0:10:36.870 --> 0:10:38.969 those via a direct debit help as well? 0:10:39.030 --> 0:10:43.319 Yeah, 100%. I shout about automation. So where you can 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.740 set up direct debits, that works wonders. And even if 0:10:46.740 --> 0:10:49.770 it's not a bill and it's investing or saving, stand 0:10:49.770 --> 0:10:52.170 and order that, set it up where the money just 0:10:52.170 --> 0:10:54.090 comes out of your account and you're not thinking about it. 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.670 One of the things that's really helped me as someone 0:10:56.670 --> 0:11:00.840 who doesn't intuitively connect with numbers is using visual tools. 0:11:00.929 --> 0:11:01.230 Yes. 0:11:01.290 --> 0:11:04.410 So I love seeing my spending in a pie chart 0:11:04.410 --> 0:11:07.920 or a bar chart because then I can see, rather 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.550 than have to calculate how much money I have left 0:11:11.550 --> 0:11:12.209 per month. 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.190 I love that. If it works for you and it 0:11:14.190 --> 0:11:16.770 helps you focus on the right thing, then run with it. 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:17.250 Absolutely. 0:11:17.490 --> 0:11:18.900 As long as we're getting to the end goal, right? 0:11:18.900 --> 0:11:22.470 Totally. And what would your advice be for anyone who 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:27.720 may be feeling shame and embarrassment, around not feeling like 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.839 they are adulting and getting their act together when it 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.270 comes to money? How can we shift that mindset? 0:11:34.020 --> 0:11:37.679 It's a really good question. It's initially acknowledging and understanding 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.800 that your brain works differently and there's nothing wrong with that. 0:11:41.130 --> 0:11:44.699 And actually what hasn't adjusted are the financial products and 0:11:44.700 --> 0:11:48.030 services that exist to align with how your brain works. 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.360 It just requires an extra step for you to find 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.300 solutions that work well for you. And there are many 0:11:54.300 --> 0:11:57.390 people who have successfully done that and gone from really 0:11:57.780 --> 0:12:01.740 difficult financial situations and struggling in debt and not having 0:12:01.740 --> 0:12:04.559 oversight of their finances and have gone through that. And 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.830 it might involve an initial brave step of rolling up 0:12:07.830 --> 0:12:10.709 your sleeves and being like, okay, let's go for it. But 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.710 just encouragement that there is a way and you can 0:12:13.710 --> 0:12:14.309 go down that path. 0:12:14.610 --> 0:12:18.990 If spending becomes an issue because of your neurodivergence. Do 0:12:18.990 --> 0:12:22.830 you recommend certain strategies to put in place to manage 0:12:22.830 --> 0:12:24.900 debts that might happen as a result of that? 0:12:24.929 --> 0:12:27.660 First of all, I'd say stop, pause, breathe, and know 0:12:27.660 --> 0:12:30.510 that you can get through. And I think second, it's 0:12:30.510 --> 0:12:32.370 just take an audit, note down, okay, this is what 0:12:32.370 --> 0:12:34.860 I have here. These are the terms and conditions here. 0:12:35.070 --> 0:12:38.939 And then it's slowly working your way through various different methods. 0:12:39.150 --> 0:12:43.020 Avalanche and Snowball method, and it can be quite fun actually, 0:12:43.350 --> 0:12:45.900 as you watch that journey of your debt reducing and 0:12:45.900 --> 0:12:47.219 know that you have done that. 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.370 Once you're on that journey, the progress that you make 0:12:50.370 --> 0:12:52.319 then becomes very self- motivating. 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:52.980 100%. 0:12:52.980 --> 0:12:54.571 But you have to start that journey in the first place. 0:12:54.571 --> 0:12:58.920 You have to start. And even starting with five pounds, because what we're 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.710 doing there is we're building this new habit, and that's 0:13:01.710 --> 0:13:05.010 the key. You are teaching yourself and learning and building 0:13:05.010 --> 0:13:07.950 up the confidence that I can commit to paying money 0:13:08.070 --> 0:13:11.100 to clear a debt that I have. That's you being responsible. 0:13:11.220 --> 0:13:13.170 And once you start that journey, it starts to snowball 0:13:13.170 --> 0:13:13.920 and you feel really good. 0:13:14.070 --> 0:13:17.160 That's so encouraging and heartening, but there may be people 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.710 who are listening to this conversation who haven't got a diagnosis, 0:13:19.710 --> 0:13:21.900 who think I relate to a lot of this stuff. 0:13:22.290 --> 0:13:24.540 What advice would you give to anyone who may not 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.140 officially have that neurodivergence but relate to a lot of 0:13:28.140 --> 0:13:29.160 what we've been talking about? 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.790 I encourage people to set up maybe an accountability partner 0:13:32.910 --> 0:13:36.030 or someone they can confide in and have those conversations 0:13:36.330 --> 0:13:38.729 because it's definitely going to be a journey for you 0:13:38.730 --> 0:13:40.500 to figure out what works for you. 0:13:40.770 --> 0:13:43.260 And does that have to be somebody who is a 0:13:43.260 --> 0:13:45.570 step removed from your life, like a coach? Or can 0:13:45.570 --> 0:13:47.730 it just be someone who's a friend or a family 0:13:47.730 --> 0:13:48.900 member who looks out for you? 0:13:48.990 --> 0:13:51.360 Totally. My first thought was it could be a friend, 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:53.939 it could be a sister, it could be anyone, but 0:13:53.940 --> 0:13:57.059 someone that you feel safe to explore that with. Diagnosis 0:13:57.059 --> 0:14:00.780 is quite expensive and for many people really not accessible, 0:14:01.170 --> 0:14:04.439 but there's no harm in you exploring. What solutions exist 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.360 in that space to help benefit you and help you 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:06.870 do better. 0:14:07.230 --> 0:14:12.089 And how can partners, friends, even employers, be more supportive 0:14:12.270 --> 0:14:15.240 of those who have neurodivergence when it comes to money? 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.449 First of all, it's knowing that neurodivergence is a spectrum and 0:14:18.450 --> 0:14:21.840 everybody is different. I think people assume that someone who 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.540 is autistic looks a certain way. I mean, I think 0:14:24.540 --> 0:14:27.210 the narrative of it being a white male is still 0:14:27.210 --> 0:14:31.440 quite prevalent, right? Dyslexia, ADHD, looks different for everybody. And 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.230 it's for us all to accept that and trust the 0:14:34.230 --> 0:14:38.460 individual and their challenges. And then also lead with financial 0:14:38.460 --> 0:14:42.270 empathy and kindness for that person and be gentle with 0:14:42.540 --> 0:14:45.660 their challenges and support them. And then if you have 0:14:45.660 --> 0:14:49.350 the time, offer to help. That might be helping them 0:14:49.350 --> 0:14:52.170 find solutions to manage their money better or helping them 0:14:52.170 --> 0:14:55.530 find an app that would work well with them. So 0:14:55.530 --> 0:14:56.430 being a helpful hand. 0:14:56.790 --> 0:14:59.010 And Crystal, do you have any advice about how you 0:14:59.010 --> 0:15:01.680 can keep an eye on the long term? Because that 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.840 can also be an issue if you're neurodivergent. 0:15:03.990 --> 0:15:07.830 There's something called time blindness. This is where you struggle 0:15:07.830 --> 0:15:12.150 to think about the future paired with that lovely present bias. 0:15:12.150 --> 0:15:15.390 So we want to do things right now, but that 0:15:15.390 --> 0:15:20.640 means two things. One, if we're spending too much right now, 0:15:20.670 --> 0:15:23.460 we're not able to save and put that money today 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.760 into the right place, whether it's saving or investing, which 0:15:26.790 --> 0:15:29.160 is for us to build our future wealth. 0:15:29.220 --> 0:15:31.980 And also, I imagine that people who might struggle with 0:15:32.100 --> 0:15:35.730 things like ADHD would find the process of getting to 0:15:35.730 --> 0:15:39.960 understand investing in pensions and these big money subjects, quite daunting. 0:15:40.260 --> 0:15:42.480 So what would your advice be for anyone who would 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.670 really love to get to grips with these things but thinks, 0:15:44.790 --> 0:15:46.229 I think that's a little bit beyond me? 0:15:46.590 --> 0:15:48.600 Whether it's talking to somebody that you trust and knows 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.090 a bit more than you, seeking professional help. But I 0:15:51.090 --> 0:15:54.270 do understand that especially if we're talking about a financial advisor 0:15:54.300 --> 0:15:56.130 who looks really suited and booted and serious when it 0:15:56.130 --> 0:15:59.730 comes to money, that's a bit scary. Maybe encourage online 0:15:59.730 --> 0:16:02.670 spaces where you can learn, but also if you do 0:16:02.670 --> 0:16:06.540 download a investing app and follow the steps, it's really 0:16:06.540 --> 0:16:11.520 quite straightforward. They don't give you the unnecessary technical jargon. 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.520 The UX design, the interface is really friendly and you 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:16.470 just press a couple of buttons and before you know it, 0:16:16.470 --> 0:16:17.430 you're an investor. 0:16:17.490 --> 0:16:19.350 Don't talk yourself out of it, in other words. Don't 0:16:19.350 --> 0:16:20.970 think that's not for me, just do it. 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:21.750 It's for everyone. 0:16:22.110 --> 0:16:26.910 So Crystal, if someone's feeling overwhelmed and they recognize some 0:16:26.910 --> 0:16:29.430 of the traits that we've been discussing in themselves, what 0:16:29.430 --> 0:16:30.630 are your top three tips for them? 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.930 I think the first would be know that with so 0:16:33.930 --> 0:16:36.990 many other areas of life, it's a journey. And the 0:16:36.990 --> 0:16:39.600 fact that you are aware of it is the first step. 0:16:39.930 --> 0:16:42.180 And then it's a matter of taking your time to 0:16:42.180 --> 0:16:44.670 gather the information that you need and working through the 0:16:44.670 --> 0:16:48.120 process of making the changes. Number two, when we think 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.950 about the task of doing money and sitting down, whether 0:16:52.950 --> 0:16:55.890 it's with a spreadsheet or a bit of paper, I'd 0:16:55.890 --> 0:16:58.500 encourage you to maybe anchor that to something that you 0:16:58.500 --> 0:17:01.440 already enjoy. So if you're going to update your budget, 0:17:01.740 --> 0:17:04.169 find something you can do or be in a space or 0:17:04.170 --> 0:17:07.200 an environment that you really enjoy so that it feels good. 0:17:07.260 --> 0:17:08.790 I would blast out some music. 0:17:08.820 --> 0:17:09.420 There you go. 0:17:09.420 --> 0:17:10.200 That's what I would do. 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:12.990 Exactly. Or maybe go to a cafe and have a 0:17:12.990 --> 0:17:14.160 little posh coffee and- 0:17:14.220 --> 0:17:15.030 Oh, yeah sorry, I'm in. 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.119 Third tip. Third tip would be chunking it down. So when we think about our finances, 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.369 there are so many things we need to do, right? 0:17:23.369 --> 0:17:26.850 Whether it's creating a budget, setting up our automations, thinking 0:17:26.850 --> 0:17:29.910 about investing, maybe create a lovely long list and be like, okay, 0:17:29.910 --> 0:17:32.010 these are the things I have to do. Choose one 0:17:32.190 --> 0:17:34.140 and do that one. And then when you come back, 0:17:34.140 --> 0:17:36.270 maybe the next week or a couple days later, do 0:17:36.270 --> 0:17:38.670 one other and just take your time and before you've 0:17:38.670 --> 0:17:39.840 gone through the list. 0:17:41.250 --> 0:17:43.950 Those are fantastic tips, Crystal, and I'm sure people listening 0:17:43.950 --> 0:17:46.260 will really, really appreciate them. Thank you so much. 0:17:46.290 --> 0:17:46.710 Thank you. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.619 Next time the mortgage mom, Sarah Tucker, will be here 0:17:49.619 --> 0:17:51.960 to talk us through the home buying process and what 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.300 you need to know. This podcast is brought to you 0:17:54.300 --> 0:17:56.970 by LNG. You can keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok 0:17:56.970 --> 0:18:00.689 and Instagram at Legal and General. I would love it 0:18:00.690 --> 0:18:03.000 if you could follow the podcast, leave us a review 0:18:03.210 --> 0:18:05.910 and help others get a little bit richer too. Thanks 0:18:05.910 --> 0:18:08.100 for listening. Until next time, see you soon.