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Iona Bain: Hello and welcome to A Little Bit Richer, with me,
Iona Bain: Iona Bain, brought to you by Legal and General. In
Iona Bain: today's episode, we're talking about something that affects millions of people,
Iona Bain: but often doesn't get discussed enough in the context of money,
Iona Bain: and that's neurodiversity. Around one in five people in the
Iona Bain: UK are neurodivergent, which means their brains work a little
Iona Bain: differently from what's considered typical. Neurodiversity is a term that
Iona Bain: covers ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and dyscalculia. And for many, it shapes
Iona Bain: how we think, feel, and behave when it comes to finances.
Iona Bain: Research shows neurodivergent people are more likely to face financial
Iona Bain: anxiety and often lack confidence when it comes to managing
Iona Bain: their money. Joining me today is the brilliant Crystal McGilvrey.
Iona Bain: She's an accountant, campaigner, and speaker who was diagnosed with
Iona Bain: dyslexia in her thirties and also lives with ADHD. Crystal
Iona Bain: has a master's in behavioral and economic science and is
Iona Bain: an expert in decision- making and behavioral finance. So she
Iona Bain: is the perfect person for us to chat to today. Welcome, Crystal.
Krystle McGilvrey: Hi.
Iona Bain: Can you explain more about neurodiversity and how this might
Iona Bain: affect how someone manages their money?
Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, for sure. So neurodiversity basically is a difference in
Krystle McGilvrey: our brain. Neurodivergents have a different maybe structure in the
Krystle McGilvrey: brain or the way their brain reacts or operates is
Krystle McGilvrey: slightly different. If you are neurodivergent, you are likely to be
Krystle McGilvrey: different in how you think, feel, and act. And if
Krystle McGilvrey: you think about money and the role it plays in
Krystle McGilvrey: our lives, it then has a double rolling effect on that.
Iona Bain: So it's a very profound impact on pretty much every
Iona Bain: aspect of how you interact with your finances?
Krystle McGilvrey: 100%. Yeah. We're talking about managing and budgeting, et cetera.
Krystle McGilvrey: And if you don't have systems in place to help
Krystle McGilvrey: you build wealth and manage your money on a day to day,
Krystle McGilvrey: it can be really quite hard.
Iona Bain: What are some of the typical money related challenges that
Iona Bain: neurodiverse people face and how might these differ between ADHD, autism,
Iona Bain: dyslexia and dyscalculia?
Krystle McGilvrey: Top line, we're talking about things such as emotional dysregulation
Krystle McGilvrey: or executive functioning. This is where it impacts us. For example,
Krystle McGilvrey: executive functioning. We're talking about planning and organizing our finances,
Krystle McGilvrey: and what you might see as someone struggling with budgeting
Krystle McGilvrey: and staying within the parameters that they've set for their
Krystle McGilvrey: finances and maybe they impulse spend instead. And that's when
Krystle McGilvrey: we go back to things such as emotional dysregulation. When
Krystle McGilvrey: you are maybe sad or even really happy, you want
Krystle McGilvrey: to reward yourself and that spike you get really excited
Krystle McGilvrey: and then you realize you've spent your savings for your home.
Krystle McGilvrey: Or if we think about something like autism, maybe shutdowns
Krystle McGilvrey: or meltdowns means you avoid your finances completely and then
Krystle McGilvrey: that can cause a ripple effect.
Iona Bain: And also when it comes to something like dyslexia or dyscalculia,
Iona Bain: can that also be problematic in terms of your finances?
Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, for sure. If we think about dyscalculia, that's all
Krystle McGilvrey: about numbers. Although I like to talk about finances not
Krystle McGilvrey: being a mathematical thing as such, right? It's more about
Krystle McGilvrey: the managing, the planning, thinking about the future, investing for
Krystle McGilvrey: later life, but if you've got a fear or you
Krystle McGilvrey: avoid numbers, that really makes it hard for you to
Krystle McGilvrey: start thinking about what you're doing with your money for
Krystle McGilvrey: later in life or even today. And then dyslexia, writing
Krystle McGilvrey: or doing any kind of financial management when it comes
Krystle McGilvrey: to your money, dyslexia shows up.
Iona Bain: And you've been very open about your diagnosis of ADHD
Iona Bain: and dyslexia. How have those things specifically affected your ability
Iona Bain: to manage money?
Krystle McGilvrey: So I'm an accountant, right? Which some people might be
Krystle McGilvrey: surprised by.
Iona Bain: 100%. Which is why I laugh.
Krystle McGilvrey: I'm a chartered accountant, I've got a bachelor's in financial mathematics.
Krystle McGilvrey: I'm very number heavy. But I think what we need
Krystle McGilvrey: to understand here is neurodivergence is on a spectrum, and
Krystle McGilvrey: the way it's diagnosed is there's a range of traits. And
Krystle McGilvrey: when you're assessed, it's about you being diagnosed based on
Krystle McGilvrey: you meeting a criteria of having a certain number of
Krystle McGilvrey: traits in a certain area. So with me being dyslexic
Krystle McGilvrey: for example, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to struggle
Krystle McGilvrey: with numbers. My dyslexia actually isn't around auditory, so I
Krystle McGilvrey: can still really thrive when it comes to numbers and
Krystle McGilvrey: I don't avoid them. But where I do struggle and
Krystle McGilvrey: I've had to build systems, which is the managing and planning.
Krystle McGilvrey: For example, when I worked in an organization, I had
Krystle McGilvrey: the structure. I have weekly deadlines, monthly deadlines, so I
Krystle McGilvrey: was really okay functioning in that environment. As soon as
Krystle McGilvrey: I've gone and worked for myself now, straight away I
Krystle McGilvrey: was like, how do I do this?
Iona Bain: I mean, when you're self- employed, that is hard at
Iona Bain: the best of times.
Krystle McGilvrey: Exactly.
Iona Bain: But it must have been particularly tricky for you.
Krystle McGilvrey: It was, and I hadn't been diagnosed then, but I
Krystle McGilvrey: did notice straight away that I was really messy in
Krystle McGilvrey: my organization and it took a while for me to
Krystle McGilvrey: realize I need structure. So that's one thing I help
Krystle McGilvrey: people with is building that routine, that system, because that's
Krystle McGilvrey: going to be your foundation for you to then launch
Krystle McGilvrey: pad and do the other things you need to do.
Iona Bain: What you're saying really resonates with me because I was
Iona Bain: diagnosed with dyscalculia when I was at school, and one
Iona Bain: thing that frustrates me now is if I tell people
Iona Bain: what I do and if I then talk about my
Iona Bain: struggles with numbers and maths, they then say, " Well, how
Iona Bain: can you then be good with money?" Do you get
Iona Bain: this sometimes where people will perhaps write off those who
Iona Bain: have neurodivergence as maybe not being able to get on
Iona Bain: top of their finances? Is that something that you find frustrating?
Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, 100%. Whether it's people in general or the individual themselves,
Krystle McGilvrey: them knowing that they are neurodivergent and the struggles they've
Krystle McGilvrey: had in the past can be really quite hard to manage.
Krystle McGilvrey: And that demotivate you to even start walking the path
Krystle McGilvrey: to addressing where you are different.
Iona Bain: Because you've already started labeling yourself in that way.
Krystle McGilvrey: Exactly. When it comes to neurodivergence, it's not that there's
Krystle McGilvrey: a problem with your brain, it's actually the systems and
Krystle McGilvrey: products and services that exist in our society today have
Krystle McGilvrey: not been tailored for you. And instead what you need
Krystle McGilvrey: to do is identify, okay, how does my brain work?
Krystle McGilvrey: What do I find really easy? And then what systems
Krystle McGilvrey: can I put in place to help me win when
Krystle McGilvrey: it comes to finance?
Iona Bain: Many people who have neurodivergence talk about the frustration of
Iona Bain: having that intention to manage their money better, but not
Iona Bain: being able to follow through. So what's behind that?
Krystle McGilvrey: The word lazy comes up a lot, or people label
Krystle McGilvrey: people as lazy. And so when it comes to your finances,
Krystle McGilvrey: you might have all the best interest in the world
Krystle McGilvrey: to say, right, I'm going to do this and feel
Krystle McGilvrey: quite motivated about it. When it comes to our brain
Krystle McGilvrey: and things such as dopamine and distraction and struggling to
Krystle McGilvrey: control yourself, that's down to your brain in the way
Krystle McGilvrey: it's wired. So it's not that you're lazy and you
Krystle McGilvrey: just give up. There's actually something going on in your mind,
Krystle McGilvrey: and that's where it's really important to put systems in
Krystle McGilvrey: place and tools that can help you get things done.
Iona Bain: And how do we become kinder to ourselves if we
Iona Bain: are neurodivergent and we have had those struggles with money?
Iona Bain: I talk about financial empathy a lot. So that's the
Iona Bain: number one thing.
Krystle McGilvrey: The number one thing.
Iona Bain: Before you even get into strategies is be kind to yourself.
Krystle McGilvrey: I've got a coaching program and I take people through,
Krystle McGilvrey: and before we even start talking numbers, it's all about
Krystle McGilvrey: you building up the confidence within yourself and your belief
Krystle McGilvrey: in your ability to get there. Because if you're coming
Krystle McGilvrey: in and you've lost some money or you're not where
Krystle McGilvrey: your friends are, you just don't feel good. So you're
Krystle McGilvrey: not going to be in the right space to be like, " Okay, yeah,
Krystle McGilvrey: let's put a budget in place. Yep, let's start saving."
Krystle McGilvrey: You're going to have this negative thought cycle, and instead
Krystle McGilvrey: it's realizing there's nothing wrong with your brain, it's just
Krystle McGilvrey: we haven't quite discovered what works for you. And going
Krystle McGilvrey: through that journey, then you're able and open to reframe
Krystle McGilvrey: your view of you and money. And then it becomes
Krystle McGilvrey: really exciting, because it's almost like your problem solving and trying
Krystle McGilvrey: to figure out, okay, this works for me and I
Krystle McGilvrey: can make it fun here.
Iona Bain: It's about trying to get those aha moments where suddenly
Iona Bain: people will understand how to view their neurodivergence in a
Iona Bain: new light almost and see it as an opportunity and something
Iona Bain: that they can work with.
Krystle McGilvrey: It's a reframe. That's what it is. And then it
Krystle McGilvrey: allows you to go down this different path when it
Krystle McGilvrey: comes to your finances and see that actually, oh, maybe
Krystle McGilvrey: I could buy a home one day, or maybe I
Krystle McGilvrey: could build up an emergency fund, or maybe I could
Krystle McGilvrey: start investing. That becomes accessible to you.
Iona Bain: That's lovely. Kind of opening up those possibilities.
Krystle McGilvrey: Precisely.
Iona Bain: So let's talk about some practical ways that neurodiverse people
Iona Bain: can manage their spending day to day, because that must
Iona Bain: be a big challenge, making sure that you can deal
Iona Bain: with impulse spending, emotional purchases, forgetfulness, those types of day- to-
Iona Bain: day challenges. What do you recommend in terms of practical strategies?
Krystle McGilvrey: One thing that I know people love are certain banking apps
Krystle McGilvrey: that alerts you when you've spent some money. I think
Krystle McGilvrey: it's a really great reminder, because it's so easy for us
Krystle McGilvrey: to forget about money. Money is now a card. It's
Krystle McGilvrey: a bit of plastic in your hand. And when we
Krystle McGilvrey: think about the science and what's happening there when you
Krystle McGilvrey: spend with cash compared to spending with a card, the
Krystle McGilvrey: part of our brain that's associated with pain lights up
Krystle McGilvrey: more so when we spend with money. It's really quite fascinating.
Iona Bain: I didn't know that. Because intuitively I do feel more
Iona Bain: pained when I have to hand over a tenner compared
Iona Bain: to when I just tap my card.
Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, because it's a disassociation, right? You don't have to
Krystle McGilvrey: think about what's actually going on there. But yeah, a
Krystle McGilvrey: banking app that pings when money has gone out is
Krystle McGilvrey: such a great reminder to think about my budget or
Krystle McGilvrey: what am I doing here. Things such as having different
Krystle McGilvrey: pots or different bank accounts even. So what I like
Krystle McGilvrey: to encourage is you have a bank account or a
Krystle McGilvrey: pot that is purely for your bills.
Iona Bain: So a pot, just explain how that works?
Krystle McGilvrey: For example, Monzo, I think Styling as well. You can
Krystle McGilvrey: set up your bank account and separate your money into
Krystle McGilvrey: different sections within the one bank account, which is really
Krystle McGilvrey: quite cool. But that allows you to then separate your income,
Krystle McGilvrey: for example, into those pots and then allocate bills to
Krystle McGilvrey: those different areas. And what that means is you don't
Krystle McGilvrey: have to worry about spending and not being able to
Krystle McGilvrey: pay a bill and then having to borrow in maybe
Krystle McGilvrey: unsavory circumstances to be able to cover your day- to- day.
Krystle McGilvrey: And then you've got this other pot, which is maybe
Krystle McGilvrey: for the fun stuff and you can be free and
Krystle McGilvrey: allow your Impulsive desires to have fun.
Iona Bain: Yes. So it's not about removing all the fun, it's
Iona Bain: just about putting the boundaries in place.
Krystle McGilvrey: Yes.
Iona Bain: And also when it comes to paying bills, can organizing
Iona Bain: those via a direct debit help as well?
Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, 100%. I shout about automation. So where you can
Krystle McGilvrey: set up direct debits, that works wonders. And even if
Krystle McGilvrey: it's not a bill and it's investing or saving, stand
Krystle McGilvrey: and order that, set it up where the money just
Krystle McGilvrey: comes out of your account and you're not thinking about it.
Iona Bain: One of the things that's really helped me as someone
Iona Bain: who doesn't intuitively connect with numbers is using visual tools.
Krystle McGilvrey: Yes.
Iona Bain: So I love seeing my spending in a pie chart
Iona Bain: or a bar chart because then I can see, rather
Iona Bain: than have to calculate how much money I have left
Iona Bain: per month.
Krystle McGilvrey: I love that. If it works for you and it
Krystle McGilvrey: helps you focus on the right thing, then run with it.
Iona Bain: Absolutely.
Krystle McGilvrey: As long as we're getting to the end goal, right?
Iona Bain: Totally. And what would your advice be for anyone who
Iona Bain: may be feeling shame and embarrassment, around not feeling like
Iona Bain: they are adulting and getting their act together when it
Iona Bain: comes to money? How can we shift that mindset?
Krystle McGilvrey: It's a really good question. It's initially acknowledging and understanding
Krystle McGilvrey: that your brain works differently and there's nothing wrong with that.
Krystle McGilvrey: And actually what hasn't adjusted are the financial products and
Krystle McGilvrey: services that exist to align with how your brain works.
Krystle McGilvrey: It just requires an extra step for you to find
Krystle McGilvrey: solutions that work well for you. And there are many
Krystle McGilvrey: people who have successfully done that and gone from really
Krystle McGilvrey: difficult financial situations and struggling in debt and not having
Krystle McGilvrey: oversight of their finances and have gone through that. And
Krystle McGilvrey: it might involve an initial brave step of rolling up
Krystle McGilvrey: your sleeves and being like, okay, let's go for it. But
Krystle McGilvrey: just encouragement that there is a way and you can
Krystle McGilvrey: go down that path.
Iona Bain: If spending becomes an issue because of your neurodivergence. Do
Iona Bain: you recommend certain strategies to put in place to manage
Iona Bain: debts that might happen as a result of that?
Krystle McGilvrey: First of all, I'd say stop, pause, breathe, and know
Krystle McGilvrey: that you can get through. And I think second, it's
Krystle McGilvrey: just take an audit, note down, okay, this is what
Krystle McGilvrey: I have here. These are the terms and conditions here.
Krystle McGilvrey: And then it's slowly working your way through various different methods.
Krystle McGilvrey: Avalanche and Snowball method, and it can be quite fun actually,
Krystle McGilvrey: as you watch that journey of your debt reducing and
Krystle McGilvrey: know that you have done that.
Iona Bain: Once you're on that journey, the progress that you make
Iona Bain: then becomes very self- motivating.
Krystle McGilvrey: 100%.
Iona Bain: But you have to start that journey in the first place.
Krystle McGilvrey: You have to start. And even starting with five pounds, because what we're
Krystle McGilvrey: doing there is we're building this new habit, and that's
Krystle McGilvrey: the key. You are teaching yourself and learning and building
Krystle McGilvrey: up the confidence that I can commit to paying money
Krystle McGilvrey: to clear a debt that I have. That's you being responsible.
Krystle McGilvrey: And once you start that journey, it starts to snowball
Krystle McGilvrey: and you feel really good.
Iona Bain: That's so encouraging and heartening, but there may be people
Iona Bain: who are listening to this conversation who haven't got a diagnosis,
Iona Bain: who think I relate to a lot of this stuff.
Iona Bain: What advice would you give to anyone who may not
Iona Bain: officially have that neurodivergence but relate to a lot of
Iona Bain: what we've been talking about?
Krystle McGilvrey: I encourage people to set up maybe an accountability partner
Krystle McGilvrey: or someone they can confide in and have those conversations
Krystle McGilvrey: because it's definitely going to be a journey for you
Krystle McGilvrey: to figure out what works for you.
Iona Bain: And does that have to be somebody who is a
Iona Bain: step removed from your life, like a coach? Or can
Iona Bain: it just be someone who's a friend or a family
Iona Bain: member who looks out for you?
Krystle McGilvrey: Totally. My first thought was it could be a friend,
Krystle McGilvrey: it could be a sister, it could be anyone, but
Krystle McGilvrey: someone that you feel safe to explore that with. Diagnosis
Krystle McGilvrey: is quite expensive and for many people really not accessible,
Krystle McGilvrey: but there's no harm in you exploring. What solutions exist
Krystle McGilvrey: in that space to help benefit you and help you
Krystle McGilvrey: do better.
Iona Bain: And how can partners, friends, even employers, be more supportive
Iona Bain: of those who have neurodivergence when it comes to money?
Krystle McGilvrey: First of all, it's knowing that neurodivergence is a spectrum and
Krystle McGilvrey: everybody is different. I think people assume that someone who
Krystle McGilvrey: is autistic looks a certain way. I mean, I think
Krystle McGilvrey: the narrative of it being a white male is still
Krystle McGilvrey: quite prevalent, right? Dyslexia, ADHD, looks different for everybody. And
Krystle McGilvrey: it's for us all to accept that and trust the
Krystle McGilvrey: individual and their challenges. And then also lead with financial
Krystle McGilvrey: empathy and kindness for that person and be gentle with
Krystle McGilvrey: their challenges and support them. And then if you have
Krystle McGilvrey: the time, offer to help. That might be helping them
Krystle McGilvrey: find solutions to manage their money better or helping them
Krystle McGilvrey: find an app that would work well with them. So
Krystle McGilvrey: being a helpful hand.
Iona Bain: And Crystal, do you have any advice about how you
Iona Bain: can keep an eye on the long term? Because that
Iona Bain: can also be an issue if you're neurodivergent.
Krystle McGilvrey: There's something called time blindness. This is where you struggle
Krystle McGilvrey: to think about the future paired with that lovely present bias.
Krystle McGilvrey: So we want to do things right now, but that
Krystle McGilvrey: means two things. One, if we're spending too much right now,
Krystle McGilvrey: we're not able to save and put that money today
Krystle McGilvrey: into the right place, whether it's saving or investing, which
Krystle McGilvrey: is for us to build our future wealth.
Iona Bain: And also, I imagine that people who might struggle with
Iona Bain: things like ADHD would find the process of getting to
Iona Bain: understand investing in pensions and these big money subjects, quite daunting.
Iona Bain: So what would your advice be for anyone who would
Iona Bain: really love to get to grips with these things but thinks,
Iona Bain: I think that's a little bit beyond me?
Krystle McGilvrey: Whether it's talking to somebody that you trust and knows
Krystle McGilvrey: a bit more than you, seeking professional help. But I
Krystle McGilvrey: do understand that especially if we're talking about a financial advisor
Krystle McGilvrey: who looks really suited and booted and serious when it
Krystle McGilvrey: comes to money, that's a bit scary. Maybe encourage online
Krystle McGilvrey: spaces where you can learn, but also if you do
Krystle McGilvrey: download a investing app and follow the steps, it's really
Krystle McGilvrey: quite straightforward. They don't give you the unnecessary technical jargon.
Krystle McGilvrey: The UX design, the interface is really friendly and you
Krystle McGilvrey: just press a couple of buttons and before you know it,
Krystle McGilvrey: you're an investor.
Iona Bain: Don't talk yourself out of it, in other words. Don't
Iona Bain: think that's not for me, just do it.
Krystle McGilvrey: It's for everyone.
Iona Bain: So Crystal, if someone's feeling overwhelmed and they recognize some
Iona Bain: of the traits that we've been discussing in themselves, what
Iona Bain: are your top three tips for them?
Krystle McGilvrey: I think the first would be know that with so
Krystle McGilvrey: many other areas of life, it's a journey. And the
Krystle McGilvrey: fact that you are aware of it is the first step.
Krystle McGilvrey: And then it's a matter of taking your time to
Krystle McGilvrey: gather the information that you need and working through the
Krystle McGilvrey: process of making the changes. Number two, when we think
Krystle McGilvrey: about the task of doing money and sitting down, whether
Krystle McGilvrey: it's with a spreadsheet or a bit of paper, I'd
Krystle McGilvrey: encourage you to maybe anchor that to something that you
Krystle McGilvrey: already enjoy. So if you're going to update your budget,
Krystle McGilvrey: find something you can do or be in a space or
Krystle McGilvrey: an environment that you really enjoy so that it feels good.
Iona Bain: I would blast out some music.
Krystle McGilvrey: There you go.
Iona Bain: That's what I would do.
Krystle McGilvrey: Exactly. Or maybe go to a cafe and have a
Krystle McGilvrey: little posh coffee and-
Iona Bain: Oh, yeah sorry, I'm in.
Krystle McGilvrey: Third tip. Third tip would be chunking it down. So when we think about our finances,
Krystle McGilvrey: there are so many things we need to do, right?
Krystle McGilvrey: Whether it's creating a budget, setting up our automations, thinking
Krystle McGilvrey: about investing, maybe create a lovely long list and be like, okay,
Krystle McGilvrey: these are the things I have to do. Choose one
Krystle McGilvrey: and do that one. And then when you come back,
Krystle McGilvrey: maybe the next week or a couple days later, do
Krystle McGilvrey: one other and just take your time and before you've
Krystle McGilvrey: gone through the list.
Iona Bain: Those are fantastic tips, Crystal, and I'm sure people listening
Iona Bain: will really, really appreciate them. Thank you so much.
Krystle McGilvrey: Thank you.
Iona Bain: Next time the mortgage mom, Sarah Tucker, will be here
Iona Bain: to talk us through the home buying process and what
Iona Bain: you need to know. This podcast is brought to you
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Iona Bain: for listening. Until next time, see you soon.