Maiki Lynch: Hey there, I'm Maiki Lynch and I'm an accountant. And in this
Maiki Lynch: series from ACCA, I'm sitting down with some other accountants
Maiki Lynch: and people who work in finance to lift the lid
Maiki Lynch: on some of the common myths you might have fallen
Maiki Lynch: for about this awesome career path. This week we are looking at one
Maiki Lynch: of the core questions people tend to have about these jobs. Namely,
Maiki Lynch: isn't accounting and finance basically just maths? Do you need
Maiki Lynch: to be a maths genius? And can you make a career in accounting
Maiki Lynch: without a maths degree? Let's find out. This is By All Accounts. Ah, maths,
Maiki Lynch: for some of us, just the word can send a
Maiki Lynch: shiver down the spine, conjuring memories of school and protractors
Maiki Lynch: and calculators and quadratic equations and worst of all: maths tests.
Maiki Lynch: Then there's the opposite, the people who love maths and
Maiki Lynch: numbers and even have degrees in the subject. But do
Maiki Lynch: you need to be one of these people to progress
Maiki Lynch: in careers that involve some numbers like accounting? For me,
Maiki Lynch: I'm one of those people that has always enjoyed maths.
Maiki Lynch: I found if I really understood what I was trying
Maiki Lynch: to do with practice, I didn't need to remember anything
Maiki Lynch: at all, and that's brilliant. In over 10 years of teaching,
Maiki Lynch: I found it is exactly that practice element that can
Maiki Lynch: get those students who love maths and those who haven't
Maiki Lynch: touched the subject in years to where they need to be,
Maiki Lynch: mathematically speaking, through their accountancy studies. So I found two
Maiki Lynch: people who currently work in accounting and finance to ask,
Maiki Lynch: do you need a maths degree to enjoy these jobs?
Maiki Lynch: First up, Kyle Simpson, welcome.
Kyle Simpson: Thank you. Thank you for having me here.
Maiki Lynch: And Ben Kewin. Hello.
Ben Kewin: Hello. Thanks for having us.
Maiki Lynch: So what do you think? Kyle, I'm going to come
Maiki Lynch: to you first. Do you need to be amazing at
Maiki Lynch: maths to work in accounting and finance?
Kyle Simpson: I don't think so because I'm just exactly opposite of
Kyle Simpson: amazing at math. If I look back at my school days, I
Kyle Simpson: never liked particularly math. My school grades were kind of
Kyle Simpson: reflective of that, and when I was studying accountancy I
Kyle Simpson: didn't really feel that there was a overall huge area
Kyle Simpson: where you need very technical math skills like plus, minus, multiply, divide.
Kyle Simpson: That's kind of the basic principles I had, but that
Kyle Simpson: got me through all the exams I needed to pass
Kyle Simpson: to be qualified. So I don't really think it's essential
Kyle Simpson: to have extensive maths knowledge to become an accountant.
Maiki Lynch: That's really encouraging to hear, particularly for those who perhaps
Maiki Lynch: maths isn't their favorite subject. Ben, can we come to
Maiki Lynch: you with the same question? Do you think you need
Maiki Lynch: to be amazing at maths to work in accounting and finance?
Ben Kewin: So I'm quite the opposite to Kyle there of... I was always
Ben Kewin: into my maths in school. When I started doing my
Ben Kewin: accounting exams, I always thought that there was quite a
Ben Kewin: big maths implication on it. I was actually quite upset
Ben Kewin: by the time I came to qualify, because there's not
Ben Kewin: really that much complicated maths in there! So I think
Ben Kewin: that that is very much one of the things that
Ben Kewin: all the way throughout everyone's always like, " Oh, you've got
Ben Kewin: to do loads of maths. It's very maths based." You
Ben Kewin: deal with a lot of numbers, but it's more about
Ben Kewin: the trends and the patterns and the numbers than it
Ben Kewin: is with actually messing around with them and doing complicated maths.
Maiki Lynch: So coming from a different viewpoint there, but you're kind
Maiki Lynch: of landing in the same place, a similar conclusion that
Maiki Lynch: there isn't too much maths. There is some maths and
Maiki Lynch: it is helpful, but there's, there's not perhaps too much
Maiki Lynch: or as you may have expected going in from the outset. Kyle,
Maiki Lynch: I'd like to come back to you. Can we ask
Maiki Lynch: what your job is?
Kyle Simpson: I'm currently working as a finance manager at an all-
Kyle Simpson: through school in Northumberland. I work with one finance officer,
Kyle Simpson: but basically responsible for everything to do with school finance,
Kyle Simpson: financial reporting, all the way to petty cash expense claim,
Kyle Simpson: those more sort of administrative tasks. It just involves day- to-
Kyle Simpson: day school life, plus a bit of technical finance skills
Kyle Simpson: as in when I need to do sort of reportings,
Kyle Simpson: but it also has allowed managerial tasks to run the
Kyle Simpson: scope from business perspective while principals are focused on education
Kyle Simpson: side of it.
Maiki Lynch: That's quite a lot of numbers for someone who admitted from the
Maiki Lynch: outset that numbers weren't really their bag, if you will! Do you have
Maiki Lynch: a maths degree?
Kyle Simpson: I don't have any degree. Well, actually I dropped out
Kyle Simpson: of high school, which is equivalent secondary school in the UK,
Kyle Simpson: and I took an exam to be equivalent of high
Kyle Simpson: school graduate. So as a formal education, that's my final education.
Kyle Simpson: And in that, the pass mark was 50 for each
Kyle Simpson: subject and maximum score is 100, and on average I
Kyle Simpson: got something like 88. 5 across all subjects, on average.
Kyle Simpson: But there was one subject that brought the score down,
Kyle Simpson: that was math, and I got 50 out of 100 and that was
Kyle Simpson: just literally passing mark. But I managed to start accountancy
Kyle Simpson: training and become qualified two years ago.
Maiki Lynch: Congratulations. You were able to start that accountancy training without
Maiki Lynch: having a degree or without having another qualification to get
Maiki Lynch: you there?
Kyle Simpson: Yes, there was a slightly different pathway when I started. Effectively,
Kyle Simpson: it's exactly the same training as if you start the
Kyle Simpson: full ACCA qualification. But for those people who didn't have
Kyle Simpson: sort of entry qualification, so effectively, even though it was
Kyle Simpson: slightly different way around, I could start my ACCA journey
Kyle Simpson: without any more formal qualification.
Maiki Lynch: I love that and I'm aware of that as well,
Maiki Lynch: that we are one of the professions where you can come in without
Maiki Lynch: having a degree and you can still move through and
Maiki Lynch: get that chartered status, but you build that foundation without
Maiki Lynch: that being a degree or without that being A levels.
Maiki Lynch: Ben, I want to come back to you and just
Maiki Lynch: ask you a very similar question. Can you tell me
Maiki Lynch: about your job? What do you do, where do you work?
Ben Kewin: So currently I work at Crowe Isle of Man. I'm
Ben Kewin: a Client Accountant. So we get books in, do a
Ben Kewin: lot of debits and credits, lots of bank recs. When
Ben Kewin: you obviously get your big clients do their bookkeeping as
Ben Kewin: well on the side. We deal with quite a lot
Ben Kewin: of trusts, quite a lot of big companies as well.
Ben Kewin: Most of the stuff that we do is normally Isle
Ben Kewin: of Man based, which is normally a lot of investments,
Ben Kewin: but then also there's quite a lot of stuff going
Ben Kewin: on in the UK.
Maiki Lynch: Lovely. You talked about loving maths. Do you have a maths degree? What's your background,
Maiki Lynch: your relationship with maths?
Ben Kewin: So I did maths for the maths and physics as my A- levels,
Ben Kewin: and then when it came to going to uni, I went
Ben Kewin: to university to do a degree in maths and physics. I
Ben Kewin: lasted for three weeks and then dropped out of uni.
Ben Kewin: Then I started as a trainee auditor, did that for
Ben Kewin: a bit then for multiple reasons, mainly that I wasn't
Ben Kewin: mature enough to be working, I left. I went to
Ben Kewin: then go do a second degree. This one was in accountancy,
Ben Kewin: but it was on the Isle of Man where we
Ben Kewin: don't have a specific university. We've got a college which
Ben Kewin: is then linked to the University of Chester. I was
Ben Kewin: there for a year. Then COVID hit. So from that
Ben Kewin: I then dropped out of that as well and that's
Ben Kewin: when I then started doing my ACCA training. So...
Maiki Lynch: Wow.
Ben Kewin: I've not dropped out of one, but I've dropped out of two
Ben Kewin: uni degrees and then I've still ended up becoming fully qualified.
Maiki Lynch: Okay. So you are fully qualified, you are a chartered accountant as well.
Ben Kewin: Yeah.
Maiki Lynch: Congratulations. I think that really shows that career paths are
Maiki Lynch: not just linear. They're not just go to university, get
Maiki Lynch: that degree. When you finished, when you got that text
Maiki Lynch: message or that email that said, " You've finished the qualification,
Maiki Lynch: you've passed all of your exams," how did you feel?
Ben Kewin: It was brill! It was really nice to know that
Ben Kewin: you've reached the end and there's a point whereby you
Ben Kewin: never actually have to do anything again. If you did
Ben Kewin: want to continue doing more qualifications and everything, you could do,
Ben Kewin: but it would be entirely your call. However, having that
Ben Kewin: ACCA stamp after your name just opened so many doors.
Ben Kewin: Having that means that you are set and you're going
Ben Kewin: to at least always have a comfortable life and you
Ben Kewin: never have to really worry about getting a job. It
Ben Kewin: was a really satisfying text to receive.
Maiki Lynch: And I want to come back over here please for me, Kyle,
Maiki Lynch: and just ask you a similar question about when you
Maiki Lynch: got to the end of your studies, how did you feel?
Kyle Simpson: I think it took a while for me. I mean
Kyle Simpson: I immediately realized I did pass and it was very exciting,
Kyle Simpson: but to actually feel it in my day- to- day
Kyle Simpson: life it took a while, because at that time I
Kyle Simpson: was juggling a lot of things. I was buying a new house.
Kyle Simpson: My daughter was newly born, moved to Newcastle. At that
Kyle Simpson: time I was working as an IT Auditor at one
Kyle Simpson: of the big four firms, so the work was quite
Kyle Simpson: busy as well. And doing the last professional stage papers
Kyle Simpson: while doing all of that. And it was really probably the most
Kyle Simpson: difficult time of my life. And then I was so relieved,
Kyle Simpson: one side excited, one side, relieved, but at the same
Kyle Simpson: time it's quite hard to believe I finally did it.
Kyle Simpson: So it took me a while for a few weeks,
Kyle Simpson: and then I thought, I looked back and I realized actually
Kyle Simpson: I did pass, everything's done and I've finished. And as Ben said,
Kyle Simpson: I can now do whatever I want to do. It was definitely good, the best
Kyle Simpson: moment of my life.
Maiki Lynch: Oh, that's so fantastic to hear. It really is. Just
Maiki Lynch: want to take you to that journey. So you're saying
Maiki Lynch: you're working as an IT auditor, you're moving, you've got
Maiki Lynch: your baby, you've got a lot going on, maths also
Maiki Lynch: in the mix there. How did you find studying for maths,
Maiki Lynch: particularly as you're moving towards the latter stages of the
Maiki Lynch: qualification as someone who didn't have an initial love for maths,
Maiki Lynch: how did you find the maths within your studies?
Kyle Simpson: I think if I use the example of our last
Kyle Simpson: stage exams, like the strategic level papers, I see one
Kyle Simpson: was business study and the other was financial reporting. And
Kyle Simpson: I didn't feel like there was a lot of maths
Kyle Simpson: involved in those two. And I feel like the only
Kyle Simpson: paper that really required a bit more advanced maths knowledge
Kyle Simpson: was the advanced financial management. But even then I could
Kyle Simpson: kind of teach myself by searching on Google. It wasn't
Kyle Simpson: like a university level of maths, it was probably somewhere
Kyle Simpson: around the secondary school level of maths. I happen to
Kyle Simpson: not study as far as some other students might have
Kyle Simpson: done because I dropped out of school. So for a
Kyle Simpson: lot of other students it might be still within the
Kyle Simpson: limit of what they studied at school, but even if
Kyle Simpson: it's not, I think it was not that complex enough
Kyle Simpson: that you could just learn as you go.
Maiki Lynch: So just touching on some of what you've said there,
Maiki Lynch: what skills do you feel have turned out to be
Maiki Lynch: most important to you working as an accountant?
Kyle Simpson: One is professional skepticism. We, I think, hear about this
Kyle Simpson: a lot in audit paper. But I think as an
Kyle Simpson: accountant in this kind of time when the technology is
Kyle Simpson: changing really fast and the business process is changing every
Kyle Simpson: year by year, we see a lot of ways that
Kyle Simpson: we've done things that worked in the past, but maybe
Kyle Simpson: not quite the best way of doing going forward. And
Kyle Simpson: by exercising professional skepticism like this, having mindset of always
Kyle Simpson: double checking are constructively challenging, whether it's the best way
Kyle Simpson: or not, that kind of provide opportunity for development, whether
Kyle Simpson: it's for the accountant like personal development or whether it's
Kyle Simpson: for that workplace, the company. So that's I think one
Kyle Simpson: of the key skills. And in line with that then
Kyle Simpson: if things are changing, if I've asked the question, is it
Kyle Simpson: the best way? If it's not, what's the way forward?
Kyle Simpson: And if we know what's the way forward, then the
Kyle Simpson: adaptability to be able to learn. And I think we
Kyle Simpson: have this requirement for continuing professional development. So in line
Kyle Simpson: with that as well, we need to just constantly accept
Kyle Simpson: the new things so that we are able to utilize
Kyle Simpson: the technologies and different way of doing things that's available
Kyle Simpson: as we progress in our career and year by year.
Maiki Lynch: I love to hear an auditor to talk about professional
Maiki Lynch: skepticism. That rings true, and I think auditors will be
Maiki Lynch: very happy to hear that too. And I just want
Maiki Lynch: to ask about your career. Do you feel your career
Maiki Lynch: has turned out as you expected?
Kyle Simpson: Yes, in terms of direction, it did. I did have
Kyle Simpson: the idea of studying accountancy and I decided that when
Kyle Simpson: I left Korean Navy I did some navigation sort of
Kyle Simpson: things and that had nothing to do with getting a
Kyle Simpson: job on land. So when I left that job, I
Kyle Simpson: just started from scratch and I met my wife back
Kyle Simpson: in South Korea. So when she wanted to come back here,
Kyle Simpson: I need to decide what am I going to do
Kyle Simpson: to make living? And then I looked at what sort
Kyle Simpson: of things can I do without a degree, without much
Kyle Simpson: saving to start with. And that's where I saw accounting
Kyle Simpson: as the way forward, because I looked at other professions
Kyle Simpson: and quite a few of them had barriers to entry
Kyle Simpson: and accounting was one of the very few that didn't
Kyle Simpson: have barriers to entry. And I also felt that accounting is
Kyle Simpson: kind of a core of any sort of organization, whether if they're profit-
Kyle Simpson: making or not, or government... well without money, nothing really runs.
Kyle Simpson: So to me it gave me the idea that if
Kyle Simpson: I choose to go become an accountant, I can start
Kyle Simpson: as an accountant, and there are so many other pathways that's available.
Kyle Simpson: And whether if it's technical accounting like audit or tax or
Kyle Simpson: some other ways, or more leaning towards management if you are
Kyle Simpson: more interested in that side of business. So I think
Kyle Simpson: I'm heading towards where I wanted to be. I'm still
Kyle Simpson: exploring what's my next step of my career, but it's
Kyle Simpson: going toward the right direction and I'm really happy that
Kyle Simpson: I could do that. The reason why I moved from
Kyle Simpson: more private sector to public sector was as an accountant,
Kyle Simpson: I feel like once you're qualified, we can reasonably have
Kyle Simpson: a financially comfortable starting point as a newly qualified accountant.
Kyle Simpson: So that means that from that point onwards, you could
Kyle Simpson: either choose to do what you are doing at that
Kyle Simpson: sort of newly qualified level or you could go all
Kyle Simpson: the way up. But for me, because I spent so
Kyle Simpson: much time studying, I wanted to kind of adapt into
Kyle Simpson: that level of new life and focus on something that's
Kyle Simpson: a bit more meaningful. So something that I can give back,
Kyle Simpson: which is why I thought possibly going into education sector,
Kyle Simpson: particularly in the public sector and education, that is something
Kyle Simpson: that what I do, I can see what difference I
Kyle Simpson: do make in my workplaces. And also volunteering for this...
Kyle Simpson: ACCA has this early career ambassador, so the promoting thing,
Kyle Simpson: those sort of things, I feel like I can give
Kyle Simpson: something back. So that's why I think it's really good
Kyle Simpson: that I have those choices.
Maiki Lynch: It's exciting to hear you talking about the next step. Coming back to you, Ben, has
Maiki Lynch: it turned out as you expected?
Ben Kewin: If you asked me when I was 18? No, it's
Ben Kewin: very different to what I expected. I did expect to go
Ben Kewin: do a degree in math and physics, then probably go
Ben Kewin: on, do a master's, potentially a doctorate, go on that
Ben Kewin: route. Even then when I came back, accountancy was always
Ben Kewin: my plan B because both my parents were accountants, so
Ben Kewin: it's in my blood. So it was always something that was
Ben Kewin: always on the table. And so when I came back in
Ben Kewin: and started that, but then I was an audit, I'm not
Ben Kewin: an auditor, I did not enjoy that side of it.
Ben Kewin: So then even then I still wanted to end up
Ben Kewin: being an accountant, but I decided to start taking a
Ben Kewin: different route towards it that then didn't turn out. And
Ben Kewin: then I started again doing accountancy. But where I was
Ben Kewin: working, I was essentially training up to end up being
Ben Kewin: a teacher to then start training people to be accountants
Ben Kewin: as well. I then didn't like the idea of standing
Ben Kewin: up in front of a classroom and teaching. So after
Ben Kewin: I qualified, that's when I then went more into the
Ben Kewin: private sector and doing people's accounts instead.
Maiki Lynch: Working with clients. Lovely. What's your favorite bit?
Ben Kewin: My favorite part about everything that I've done is the helping
Ben Kewin: people side of it. So when I was working at
Ben Kewin: the place where I qualified, all the students would always
Ben Kewin: come to us and they'd ask us for help. And
Ben Kewin: being able to sit down with someone and go, " Right,
Ben Kewin: I see that you're stressing out about something. Here's the
Ben Kewin: way that you get around it. This is how we
Ben Kewin: can help." And being able to put other people at
Ben Kewin: ease and help people, that's always been my favorite bit
Ben Kewin: throughout everything. I've always been quite a social person so
Ben Kewin: that being able to comfort someone and be able to
Ben Kewin: make someone feel better in themselves, that was always my
Ben Kewin: favorite side of it.
Maiki Lynch: So just to bring it back to the topic of maths, do you think you need a
Maiki Lynch: maths degree to work in accounting and finance?
Ben Kewin: Oh, not at all. No. Without a doubt, no.
Maiki Lynch: Kyle?
Kyle Simpson: Not at all. I agree.
Maiki Lynch: No? And if you could give advice to someone who's considering working
Maiki Lynch: in accounting and finance, considering that as their career path,
Maiki Lynch: what would that advice be?
Ben Kewin: If it's someone who's in school, I'd say, whilst you
Ben Kewin: can make sure that you get out there, try and
Ben Kewin: get some work experience, get a feel for what it's
Ben Kewin: actually like to do the job, to see how it
Ben Kewin: is, see if it is something that you like. And
Ben Kewin: if it is something that you get started on it
Ben Kewin: as soon as you can. The sooner you start it,
Ben Kewin: the sooner you finish it, the sooner you finish it,
Ben Kewin: the sooner that all those doors open up and you
Ben Kewin: can crack on with the rest of your life, well,
Ben Kewin: in such a brilliant way.
Maiki Lynch: Kyle, any thoughts?
Kyle Simpson: Yeah, absolutely agree. I think work experience, the most important
Kyle Simpson: thing to start with, and especially because there are different
Kyle Simpson: pathways available. Where possible, I would encourage younger student to
Kyle Simpson: look out for a lot of pathways that's available, especially
Kyle Simpson: with the graduate scheme or apprenticeship and that sort of
Kyle Simpson: thing. Depending on which area of accounting you start from,
Kyle Simpson: it might take some time to be able to switch
Kyle Simpson: to something else. It's always possible to switch between different
Kyle Simpson: roles in terms of accounting, but it's always better to
Kyle Simpson: know where you're walking into and then know that you'll
Kyle Simpson: be reasonably happy with why you can't 100% tell until
Kyle Simpson: you actually start a job.
Maiki Lynch: I think that's such great advice from both of you,
Maiki Lynch: getting that experience and just a bit of exposure to what the
Maiki Lynch: work might entail I think is really key. That's it
Maiki Lynch: from this episode of By All Accounts. Thank you Kyle
Maiki Lynch: and Ben for chatting with me today. For a link
Maiki Lynch: to watch the video version of this podcast, check out
Maiki Lynch: the show notes. With skills in accountancy and finance, you
Maiki Lynch: can work in any business anywhere and turn your passion
Maiki Lynch: into an exciting and rewarding career with an ACCA qualification.
Maiki Lynch: You can sign up to find out more by heading
Maiki Lynch: to accaglobal. com/ beyouanywhere. That link is also in the
Maiki Lynch: show notes. See you next week. I'm Maiki Lynch and
Maiki Lynch: this has been, By All Accounts. By All Accounts is
Maiki Lynch: a Fresh Air Production for ACCA. Its Lead Producer is
Maiki Lynch: Eva Higginbotham and its Executive Producer is Annie Day, with
Maiki Lynch: support from Sarah Moore. Yohan Forbes is the Videographer.