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Maiki Lynch: Hey there, I'm Maiki Lynch and I'm an accountant. And in this

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Maiki Lynch: series from ACCA, I'm sitting down with some other accountants

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Maiki Lynch: and people who work in finance to lift the lid

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Maiki Lynch: on some of the common myths you might have fallen

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Maiki Lynch: for about this awesome career path. This week we are looking at one

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Maiki Lynch: of the core questions people tend to have about these jobs. Namely,

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Maiki Lynch: isn't accounting and finance basically just maths? Do you need

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Maiki Lynch: to be a maths genius? And can you make a career in accounting

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Maiki Lynch: without a maths degree? Let's find out. This is By All Accounts. Ah, maths,

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Maiki Lynch: for some of us, just the word can send a

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Maiki Lynch: shiver down the spine, conjuring memories of school and protractors

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Maiki Lynch: and calculators and quadratic equations and worst of all: maths tests.

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Maiki Lynch: Then there's the opposite, the people who love maths and

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Maiki Lynch: numbers and even have degrees in the subject. But do

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Maiki Lynch: you need to be one of these people to progress

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Maiki Lynch: in careers that involve some numbers like accounting? For me,

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Maiki Lynch: I'm one of those people that has always enjoyed maths.

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Maiki Lynch: I found if I really understood what I was trying

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Maiki Lynch: to do with practice, I didn't need to remember anything

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Maiki Lynch: at all, and that's brilliant. In over 10 years of teaching,

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Maiki Lynch: I found it is exactly that practice element that can

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Maiki Lynch: get those students who love maths and those who haven't

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Maiki Lynch: touched the subject in years to where they need to be,

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Maiki Lynch: mathematically speaking, through their accountancy studies. So I found two

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Maiki Lynch: people who currently work in accounting and finance to ask,

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Maiki Lynch: do you need a maths degree to enjoy these jobs?

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Maiki Lynch: First up, Kyle Simpson, welcome.

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Kyle Simpson: Thank  you.  Thank  you for having me here.

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Maiki Lynch: And Ben Kewin. Hello.

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Ben Kewin: Hello. Thanks for having us.

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Maiki Lynch: So what do you think? Kyle, I'm going to come

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Maiki Lynch: to you first. Do you need to be amazing at

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Maiki Lynch: maths to work in accounting and finance?

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Kyle Simpson: I don't think so because I'm just exactly opposite of

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Kyle Simpson: amazing at math. If I look back at my school days, I

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Kyle Simpson: never liked particularly math. My school grades were kind of

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Kyle Simpson: reflective of that, and when I was studying accountancy I

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Kyle Simpson: didn't really feel that there was a overall huge area

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Kyle Simpson: where you need very technical math skills like plus, minus, multiply, divide.

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Kyle Simpson: That's kind of the basic principles I had, but that

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Kyle Simpson: got me through all the exams I needed to pass

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Kyle Simpson: to be qualified. So I don't really think it's essential

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Kyle Simpson: to have extensive maths knowledge to become an accountant.

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Maiki Lynch: That's  really  encouraging  to  hear,  particularly  for  those  who  perhaps 

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Maiki Lynch: maths  isn't  their  favorite  subject.  Ben,  can  we  come  to 

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Maiki Lynch: you  with  the  same  question?  Do  you  think  you  need 

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Maiki Lynch: to  be  amazing  at  maths  to  work  in  accounting  and  finance?

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Ben Kewin: So I'm quite the opposite to Kyle there of... I was always

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Ben Kewin: into my maths in school. When I started doing my

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Ben Kewin: accounting exams, I always thought that there was quite a

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Ben Kewin: big maths implication on it. I was actually quite upset

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Ben Kewin: by the time I came to qualify, because there's not

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Ben Kewin: really that much complicated maths in there! So I think

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Ben Kewin: that that is very much one of the things that

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Ben Kewin: all the way throughout everyone's always like, " Oh, you've got

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Ben Kewin: to do loads of maths. It's very maths based." You

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Ben Kewin: deal with a lot of numbers, but it's more about

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Ben Kewin: the trends and the patterns and the numbers than it

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Ben Kewin: is with actually messing around with them and doing complicated maths.

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Maiki Lynch: So coming from a different viewpoint there, but you're kind

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Maiki Lynch: of landing in the same place, a similar conclusion that

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Maiki Lynch: there isn't too much maths. There is some maths and

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Maiki Lynch: it is helpful, but there's, there's not perhaps too much

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Maiki Lynch: or as you may have expected going in from the outset. Kyle,

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Maiki Lynch: I'd like to come back to you. Can we ask

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Maiki Lynch: what your job is?

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Kyle Simpson: I'm  currently  working  as  a  finance  manager  at  an  all-

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Kyle Simpson: through  school  in  Northumberland.  I  work  with  one  finance  officer, 

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Kyle Simpson: but  basically  responsible  for  everything  to  do  with  school  finance, 

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Kyle Simpson: financial  reporting,  all  the  way  to  petty  cash  expense  claim, 

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Kyle Simpson: those  more  sort  of  administrative  tasks.  It  just  involves  day- to-

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Kyle Simpson: day  school  life,  plus  a  bit  of  technical  finance  skills 

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Kyle Simpson: as  in  when  I  need  to  do  sort  of  reportings, 

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Kyle Simpson: but  it  also  has  allowed  managerial  tasks  to  run  the 

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Kyle Simpson: scope  from  business  perspective  while  principals  are  focused  on  education 

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Kyle Simpson: side  of  it.

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Maiki Lynch: That's quite a lot of numbers for someone who admitted from the

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Maiki Lynch: outset that numbers weren't really their bag, if you will! Do you have

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Maiki Lynch: a maths degree?

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Kyle Simpson: I don't have any degree. Well, actually I dropped out

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Kyle Simpson: of high school, which is equivalent secondary school in the UK,

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Kyle Simpson: and I took an exam to be equivalent of high

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Kyle Simpson: school graduate. So as a formal education, that's my final education.

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Kyle Simpson: And in that, the pass mark was 50 for each

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Kyle Simpson: subject and maximum score is 100, and on average I

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Kyle Simpson: got something like 88. 5 across all subjects, on average.

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Kyle Simpson: But there was one subject that brought the score down,

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Kyle Simpson: that was math, and I got 50 out of 100 and that was

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Kyle Simpson: just literally passing mark. But I managed to start accountancy

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Kyle Simpson: training and become qualified two years ago.

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Maiki Lynch: Congratulations.  You  were  able  to  start  that  accountancy  training  without 

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Maiki Lynch: having  a  degree  or  without  having  another  qualification  to  get 

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Maiki Lynch: you  there?

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Kyle Simpson: Yes, there was a slightly different pathway when I started. Effectively,

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Kyle Simpson: it's exactly the same training as if you start the

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Kyle Simpson: full ACCA qualification. But for those people who didn't have

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Kyle Simpson: sort of entry qualification, so effectively, even though it was

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Kyle Simpson: slightly different way around, I could start my ACCA journey

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Kyle Simpson: without any more formal qualification.

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Maiki Lynch: I  love  that  and  I'm  aware  of  that  as  well, 

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Maiki Lynch: that  we are one of  the  professions  where  you  can  come  in  without 

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Maiki Lynch: having  a  degree  and  you  can  still  move  through  and 

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Maiki Lynch: get  that  chartered  status,  but  you  build  that  foundation  without 

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Maiki Lynch: that  being  a  degree  or  without  that  being  A  levels. 

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Maiki Lynch: Ben,  I  want  to  come  back  to  you  and  just 

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Maiki Lynch: ask  you  a  very  similar  question.  Can  you  tell  me 

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Maiki Lynch: about  your  job?  What  do  you  do,  where  do  you  work?

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Ben Kewin: So  currently  I  work  at  Crowe  Isle  of  Man.  I'm 

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Ben Kewin: a  Client  Accountant.  So  we  get  books  in,  do  a 

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Ben Kewin: lot  of  debits  and  credits,  lots  of  bank  recs.  When 

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Ben Kewin: you  obviously  get  your  big  clients  do  their  bookkeeping  as 

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Ben Kewin: well  on  the  side.  We  deal  with  quite  a  lot 

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Ben Kewin: of  trusts,  quite  a  lot  of  big  companies  as  well. 

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Ben Kewin: Most  of  the  stuff  that  we  do  is  normally  Isle 

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Ben Kewin: of  Man  based,  which  is  normally  a  lot  of  investments, 

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Ben Kewin: but  then  also  there's  quite  a  lot  of  stuff  going 

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Ben Kewin: on  in  the  UK.

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Maiki Lynch: Lovely.  You  talked  about  loving  maths. Do you have a maths  degree?  What's  your  background, 

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Maiki Lynch: your  relationship  with maths?

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Ben Kewin: So I did maths for the maths and physics as my A- levels,

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Ben Kewin: and then when it came to going to uni, I went

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Ben Kewin: to university to do a degree in maths and physics. I

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Ben Kewin: lasted for three weeks and then dropped out of uni.

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Ben Kewin: Then I started as a trainee auditor, did that for

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Ben Kewin: a bit then for multiple reasons, mainly that I wasn't

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Ben Kewin: mature enough to be working, I left. I went to

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Ben Kewin: then go do a second degree. This one was in accountancy,

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Ben Kewin: but it was on the Isle of Man where we

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Ben Kewin: don't have a specific university. We've got a college which

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Ben Kewin: is then linked to the University of Chester. I was

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Ben Kewin: there for a year. Then COVID hit. So from that

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Ben Kewin: I then dropped out of that as well and that's

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Ben Kewin: when I then started doing my ACCA training. So...

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Maiki Lynch: Wow.

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Ben Kewin: I've  not  dropped  out  of  one,  but  I've  dropped  out of two 

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Ben Kewin: uni  degrees  and  then  I've  still  ended  up  becoming  fully qualified.

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Maiki Lynch: Okay. So you are fully  qualified, you are  a  chartered  accountant  as  well.

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Ben Kewin: Yeah.

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Maiki Lynch: Congratulations.  I  think  that  really  shows  that  career  paths  are 

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Maiki Lynch: not  just  linear.  They're  not  just  go  to  university,  get 

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Maiki Lynch: that  degree.  When  you  finished,  when  you  got  that  text 

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Maiki Lynch: message  or  that  email  that  said, " You've  finished  the  qualification, 

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Maiki Lynch: you've  passed  all  of  your  exams,"  how  did you feel?

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Ben Kewin: It was brill! It was really nice to know that

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Ben Kewin: you've reached the end and there's a point whereby you

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Ben Kewin: never actually have to do anything again. If you did

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Ben Kewin: want to continue doing more qualifications and everything, you could do,

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Ben Kewin: but it would be entirely your call. However, having that

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Ben Kewin: ACCA stamp after your name just opened so many doors.

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Ben Kewin: Having that means that you are set and you're going

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Ben Kewin: to at least always have a comfortable life and you

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Ben Kewin: never have to really worry about getting a job. It

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Ben Kewin: was a really satisfying text to receive.

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Maiki Lynch: And I want to come back over here please for me, Kyle,

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Maiki Lynch: and just ask you a similar question about when you

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Maiki Lynch: got to the end of your studies, how did you feel?

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Kyle Simpson: I think it took a while for me. I mean

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Kyle Simpson: I immediately realized I did pass and it was very exciting,

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Kyle Simpson: but to actually feel it in my day- to- day

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Kyle Simpson: life it took a while, because at that time I

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Kyle Simpson: was juggling a lot of things. I was buying a new house.

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Kyle Simpson: My daughter was newly born, moved to Newcastle. At that

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Kyle Simpson: time I was working as an IT Auditor at one

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Kyle Simpson: of the big four firms, so the work was quite

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Kyle Simpson: busy as well. And doing the last professional stage papers

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Kyle Simpson: while doing all of that. And it was really probably the most

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Kyle Simpson: difficult time of my life. And then I was so relieved,

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Kyle Simpson: one side excited, one side, relieved, but at the same

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Kyle Simpson: time it's quite hard to believe I finally did it.

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Kyle Simpson: So it took me a while for a few weeks,

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Kyle Simpson: and then I thought, I looked back and I realized actually

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Kyle Simpson: I did pass, everything's done and I've finished. And as Ben said,

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Kyle Simpson: I can now do whatever I want to do. It was definitely good, the best

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Kyle Simpson: moment of my life.

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Maiki Lynch: Oh, that's so fantastic to hear. It really is. Just

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Maiki Lynch: want to take you to that journey. So you're saying

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Maiki Lynch: you're working as an IT auditor, you're moving, you've got

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Maiki Lynch: your baby, you've got a lot going on, maths also

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Maiki Lynch: in the mix there. How did you find studying for maths,

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Maiki Lynch: particularly as you're moving towards the latter stages of the

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Maiki Lynch: qualification as someone who didn't have an initial love for maths,

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Maiki Lynch: how did you find the maths within your studies?

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Kyle Simpson: I  think  if  I  use  the  example  of  our  last 

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Kyle Simpson: stage  exams,  like  the  strategic  level  papers,  I  see  one 

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Kyle Simpson: was  business  study  and  the  other  was  financial  reporting.  And 

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Kyle Simpson: I  didn't  feel  like  there  was  a  lot  of  maths 

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Kyle Simpson: involved  in  those  two.  And  I  feel  like  the  only 

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Kyle Simpson: paper  that  really  required  a  bit  more  advanced  maths  knowledge 

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Kyle Simpson: was  the  advanced  financial  management.  But  even  then  I  could 

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Kyle Simpson: kind  of  teach  myself  by  searching  on  Google.  It  wasn't 

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Kyle Simpson: like  a  university  level  of  maths,  it  was  probably  somewhere 

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Kyle Simpson: around  the  secondary  school  level  of  maths.  I  happen  to 

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Kyle Simpson: not  study  as  far  as  some  other  students  might  have 

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Kyle Simpson: done  because  I  dropped  out  of  school.  So  for  a 

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Kyle Simpson: lot  of  other  students  it  might  be  still  within  the 

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Kyle Simpson: limit  of  what  they  studied  at  school,  but  even  if 

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Kyle Simpson: it's  not,  I  think  it  was  not  that  complex  enough 

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Kyle Simpson: that  you  could  just  learn  as  you  go.

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Maiki Lynch: So  just  touching  on  some  of  what  you've  said  there, 

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Maiki Lynch: what  skills  do  you  feel  have  turned  out  to  be 

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Maiki Lynch: most  important  to  you  working  as  an  accountant?

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Kyle Simpson: One  is  professional  skepticism.  We,  I  think,  hear  about  this 

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Kyle Simpson: a  lot  in  audit  paper.  But  I  think  as  an 

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Kyle Simpson: accountant  in  this  kind  of  time  when  the  technology  is 

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Kyle Simpson: changing  really  fast  and  the  business  process  is  changing  every 

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Kyle Simpson: year  by  year,  we  see  a  lot  of  ways  that 

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Kyle Simpson: we've  done  things  that  worked  in  the  past,  but  maybe 

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Kyle Simpson: not  quite  the  best  way  of  doing  going  forward.  And 

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Kyle Simpson: by  exercising  professional  skepticism  like  this,  having  mindset  of  always 

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Kyle Simpson: double  checking  are  constructively  challenging,  whether  it's  the  best  way 

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Kyle Simpson: or  not,  that  kind  of  provide  opportunity  for  development,  whether 

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Kyle Simpson: it's  for  the  accountant  like  personal  development  or  whether  it's 

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Kyle Simpson: for  that  workplace,  the  company.
 So  that's  I  think  one 

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Kyle Simpson: of  the  key  skills.  And  in  line  with  that  then 

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Kyle Simpson: if  things  are  changing,  if  I've  asked  the  question,  is it 

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Kyle Simpson: the  best  way?  If  it's  not,  what's  the  way  forward? 

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Kyle Simpson: And  if  we  know  what's  the  way  forward,  then  the 

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Kyle Simpson: adaptability  to  be  able  to  learn.  And  I  think  we 

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Kyle Simpson: have  this  requirement  for  continuing  professional  development.  So  in  line 

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Kyle Simpson: with  that  as  well,  we  need  to  just  constantly  accept 

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Kyle Simpson: the  new  things  so  that  we  are  able  to  utilize 

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Kyle Simpson: the  technologies  and  different  way  of  doing  things  that's  available 

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Kyle Simpson: as  we  progress  in  our  career  and  year  by  year.

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Maiki Lynch: I  love  to  hear  an  auditor  to  talk  about  professional 

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Maiki Lynch: skepticism.  That  rings  true,  and  I  think  auditors  will  be 

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Maiki Lynch: very  happy  to  hear  that  too.  And  I  just  want 

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Maiki Lynch: to  ask  about  your  career.  Do  you  feel  your  career 

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Maiki Lynch: has  turned  out  as  you  expected?

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Kyle Simpson: Yes, in terms of direction, it did. I did have

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Kyle Simpson: the idea of studying accountancy and I decided that when

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Kyle Simpson: I left Korean Navy I did some navigation sort of

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Kyle Simpson: things and that had nothing to do with getting a

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Kyle Simpson: job on land. So when I left that job, I

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Kyle Simpson: just started from scratch and I met my wife back

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Kyle Simpson: in South Korea. So when she wanted to come back here,

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Kyle Simpson: I need to decide what am I going to do

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Kyle Simpson: to make living? And then I looked at what sort

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Kyle Simpson: of things can I do without a degree, without much

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Kyle Simpson: saving to start with. And that's where I saw accounting

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Kyle Simpson: as the way forward, because I looked at other professions

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Kyle Simpson: and quite a few of them had barriers to entry

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Kyle Simpson: and accounting was one of the very few that didn't

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Kyle Simpson: have barriers to entry. And I also felt that accounting is

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Kyle Simpson: kind of a core of any sort of organization, whether if they're profit-

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Kyle Simpson: making or not, or government... well without money, nothing really runs.

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Kyle Simpson: So to me it gave me the idea that if

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Kyle Simpson: I choose to go become an accountant, I can start

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Kyle Simpson: as an accountant, and there are so many other pathways that's available.

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Kyle Simpson: And whether if it's technical accounting like audit or tax or

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Kyle Simpson: some other ways, or more leaning towards management if you are

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Kyle Simpson: more interested in that side of business. So I think

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Kyle Simpson: I'm heading towards where I wanted to be. I'm still

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Kyle Simpson: exploring what's my next step of my career, but it's

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Kyle Simpson: going toward the right direction and I'm really happy that

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Kyle Simpson: I could do that. The reason why I moved from

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Kyle Simpson: more private sector to public sector was as an accountant,

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Kyle Simpson: I feel like once you're qualified, we can reasonably have

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Kyle Simpson: a financially comfortable starting point as a newly qualified accountant.

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Kyle Simpson: So that means that from that point onwards, you could

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Kyle Simpson: either choose to do what you are doing at that

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Kyle Simpson: sort of newly qualified level or you could go all

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Kyle Simpson: the way up. But for me, because I spent so

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Kyle Simpson: much time studying, I wanted to kind of adapt into

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Kyle Simpson: that level of new life and focus on something that's

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Kyle Simpson: a bit more meaningful. So something that I can give back,

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Kyle Simpson: which is why I thought possibly going into education sector,

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Kyle Simpson: particularly in the public sector and education, that is something

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Kyle Simpson: that what I do, I can see what difference I

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Kyle Simpson: do make in my workplaces. And also volunteering for this...

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Kyle Simpson: ACCA has this early career ambassador, so the promoting thing,

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Kyle Simpson: those sort of things, I feel like I can give

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Kyle Simpson: something back. So that's why I think it's really good

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Kyle Simpson: that I have those choices.

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Maiki Lynch: It's exciting to hear you talking about  the  next  step.  Coming  back  to  you,  Ben,  has 

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Maiki Lynch: it  turned  out  as  you  expected?

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Ben Kewin: If  you  asked  me  when  I  was  18?  No,  it's 

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Ben Kewin: very  different  to what  I  expected.  I  did  expect  to  go 

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Ben Kewin: do  a  degree  in  math  and  physics,  then  probably  go 

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Ben Kewin: on,  do  a  master's,  potentially  a  doctorate,  go  on  that 

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Ben Kewin: route.  Even  then  when  I  came  back,  accountancy  was  always 

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Ben Kewin: my  plan  B  because  both  my  parents  were  accountants,  so 

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Ben Kewin: it's  in  my  blood.  So  it  was  always  something that  was 

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Ben Kewin: always  on  the  table.  And  so  when  I  came  back in 

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Ben Kewin: and  started  that,  but  then  I  was an  audit,  I'm  not 

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Ben Kewin: an  auditor,  I  did  not  enjoy  that  side  of  it.


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Ben Kewin: So  then  even  then  I  still  wanted  to  end  up 

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Ben Kewin: being  an  accountant,  but  I  decided  to  start  taking  a 

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Ben Kewin: different  route  towards  it  that  then  didn't  turn  out.  And 

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Ben Kewin: then  I  started  again  doing  accountancy.  But  where  I  was 

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Ben Kewin: working,  I  was  essentially  training  up  to  end  up  being 

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Ben Kewin: a  teacher  to  then  start  training  people  to  be  accountants 

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Ben Kewin: as  well.  I  then  didn't  like  the  idea  of  standing 

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Ben Kewin: up  in  front  of  a  classroom  and  teaching.  So  after 

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Ben Kewin: I  qualified,  that's  when  I  then  went  more  into  the 

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Ben Kewin: private  sector  and  doing  people's  accounts  instead.

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Maiki Lynch: Working  with  clients.  Lovely.  What's  your favorite bit?

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Ben Kewin: My  favorite  part  about  everything that  I've  done  is  the  helping 

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Ben Kewin: people  side  of  it.  So  when  I  was  working  at 

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Ben Kewin: the  place  where  I  qualified,  all  the  students  would  always 

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Ben Kewin: come  to  us  and  they'd  ask  us  for  help.  And 

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Ben Kewin: being  able  to  sit  down  with  someone  and  go, " Right, 

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Ben Kewin: I  see  that  you're  stressing  out  about  something.  Here's  the 

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Ben Kewin: way  that  you  get  around  it.  This  is  how  we 

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Ben Kewin: can  help."  And  being  able  to  put  other  people  at 

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Ben Kewin: ease  and  help  people,  that's  always  been  my  favorite  bit 

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Ben Kewin: throughout  everything.  I've  always  been  quite  a  social  person  so 

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Ben Kewin: that  being  able  to  comfort  someone  and  be  able  to 

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Ben Kewin: make  someone  feel  better  in  themselves,  that  was  always  my 

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Ben Kewin: favorite  side  of  it.

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Maiki Lynch: So  just  to  bring  it  back  to  the  topic  of maths, do you think you need a 

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Maiki Lynch: maths  degree  to  work  in  accounting  and  finance?

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Ben Kewin: Oh,  not  at  all.  No.  Without  a  doubt,  no.

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Maiki Lynch: Kyle?

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Kyle Simpson: Not at all. I agree.

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Maiki Lynch: No? And if  you  could  give  advice  to  someone  who's  considering  working 

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Maiki Lynch: in  accounting  and  finance,  considering  that  as  their  career  path, 

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Maiki Lynch: what  would  that  advice  be?

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Ben Kewin: If  it's  someone  who's  in  school,  I'd  say,  whilst  you 

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Ben Kewin: can  make  sure  that  you  get  out  there,  try  and 

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Ben Kewin: get  some  work  experience,  get  a  feel  for  what  it's 

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Ben Kewin: actually  like  to  do  the  job,  to  see  how  it 

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Ben Kewin: is,  see  if  it  is  something  that  you  like.  And 

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Ben Kewin: if  it  is  something  that  you  get  started  on  it 

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Ben Kewin: as  soon  as  you  can.  The  sooner  you  start  it, 

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Ben Kewin: the  sooner  you  finish  it,  the  sooner  you  finish  it, 

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Ben Kewin: the  sooner  that  all  those  doors  open  up  and  you 

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Ben Kewin: can  crack  on  with  the  rest  of  your  life,  well, 

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Ben Kewin: in  such  a  brilliant  way.

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Maiki Lynch: Kyle, any thoughts?

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Kyle Simpson: Yeah,  absolutely  agree.  I  think  work  experience,  the  most  important 

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Kyle Simpson: thing  to  start  with,  and  especially  because  there  are  different 

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Kyle Simpson: pathways  available.  Where  possible,  I  would  encourage  younger  student  to 

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Kyle Simpson: look  out  for  a  lot  of  pathways  that's  available,  especially 

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Kyle Simpson: with  the  graduate  scheme  or  apprenticeship  and  that  sort  of 

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Kyle Simpson: thing.  Depending  on  which  area  of  accounting  you  start  from, 

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Kyle Simpson: it  might  take  some  time  to  be  able  to  switch 

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Kyle Simpson: to  something  else.  It's  always  possible  to  switch  between  different 

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Kyle Simpson: roles  in  terms  of  accounting,  but  it's  always  better  to 

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Kyle Simpson: know  where  you're  walking  into  and  then  know  that  you'll 

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Kyle Simpson: be  reasonably  happy  with  why  you  can't  100%  tell  until 

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Kyle Simpson: you  actually  start a  job.

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Maiki Lynch: I think that's such great advice from both of you,

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Maiki Lynch: getting that experience and just a bit of exposure to what the

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Maiki Lynch: work might entail I think is really key. That's it

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Maiki Lynch: from this episode of By All Accounts. Thank you Kyle

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Maiki Lynch: and Ben for chatting with me today. For a link

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Maiki Lynch: to watch the video version of this podcast, check out

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Maiki Lynch: the show notes. With skills in accountancy and finance, you

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Maiki Lynch: can work in any business anywhere and turn your passion

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Maiki Lynch: into an exciting and rewarding career with an ACCA qualification.

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Maiki Lynch: You can sign up to find out more by heading

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Maiki Lynch: to accaglobal. com/ beyouanywhere. That link is also in the

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Maiki Lynch: show notes. See you next week. I'm Maiki Lynch and

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Maiki Lynch: this has been, By All Accounts. By All Accounts is

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Maiki Lynch: a Fresh Air Production for ACCA. Its Lead Producer is

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Maiki Lynch: Eva Higginbotham and its Executive Producer is Annie Day, with

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Maiki Lynch: support from Sarah Moore. Yohan Forbes is the Videographer.