1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:06,750 Krutika Adatia: Hello, and welcome back to On Your Marks from ACCA. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,070 Krutika Adatia: I'm Krutika Adatia and I'm a chartered accountant. I now support 3 00:00:11,070 --> 00:00:15,210 Krutika Adatia: accountancy students through their training. And as an educator, I'm 4 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:18,450 Krutika Adatia: regularly up close and personal with some of the common 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,650 Krutika Adatia: issues people face while studying for and sitting their accountancy 6 00:00:22,650 --> 00:00:26,790 Krutika Adatia: exams. So in this series for ACCA, I'm chatting to 7 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:30,960 Krutika Adatia: experts about strategies we can all use when facing some 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,010 Krutika Adatia: of life's challenges. This week we're looking at something I'm 9 00:00:35,010 --> 00:00:37,950 Krutika Adatia: pretty sure most of us are familiar with to some 10 00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:42,300 Krutika Adatia: degree or another, technology addiction. Why is it so easy 11 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:45,390 Krutika Adatia: to be distracted by our phones? How do we know 12 00:00:45,390 --> 00:00:48,629 Krutika Adatia: if we are truly addicted? And what tips and tricks 13 00:00:48,630 --> 00:00:53,280 Krutika Adatia: are there to help us maintain a healthier relationship with technology? 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,300 Krutika Adatia: This is On Your Marks because you'll never know until 15 00:00:57,390 --> 00:01:04,860 Krutika Adatia: you try. I got my first phone when I was 16 00:01:04,860 --> 00:01:08,520 Krutika Adatia: 16. It wasn't a smartphone because they didn't exist then. 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,360 Krutika Adatia: That came much later when I was at university. Looking 18 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,140 Krutika Adatia: back, I remember consciously switching my phone off or leaving 19 00:01:16,140 --> 00:01:18,509 Krutika Adatia: it in another room when I needed to focus on 20 00:01:18,510 --> 00:01:21,870 Krutika Adatia: deep study. Even then, I think I had some sense 21 00:01:21,870 --> 00:01:25,620 Krutika Adatia: of the addictive potential of these devices. Fast forward to 22 00:01:25,620 --> 00:01:29,520 Krutika Adatia: today and our smartphones and tablets are far more advanced, 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,360 Krutika Adatia: with a constant stream of distractions from social media apps 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:38,100 Krutika Adatia: to email notifications. At the same time, technology can also 25 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:41,610 Krutika Adatia: be a powerful tool for learning, whether through mobile study 26 00:01:41,610 --> 00:01:46,980 Krutika Adatia: platforms or useful apps like ACCA's Student Accountant. So this 27 00:01:46,980 --> 00:01:50,820 Krutika Adatia: is a nuanced space. To help unpack the balance between 28 00:01:50,820 --> 00:01:54,390 Krutika Adatia: distraction and support when it comes to phone and tech, 29 00:01:54,690 --> 00:01:59,070 Krutika Adatia: I'm delighted to be speaking with Professor Phil Reed. Phil 30 00:01:59,070 --> 00:02:02,669 Krutika Adatia: is a professor of psychology at Swansea University and he's 31 00:02:02,670 --> 00:02:06,450 Krutika Adatia: fascinated by the impact technology addiction can have on us. 32 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,389 Krutika Adatia: Hi, Phil. So great to have you join us today 33 00:02:09,389 --> 00:02:10,710 Krutika Adatia: for this conversation. 34 00:02:11,220 --> 00:02:13,169 Professor Phil Reed: Oh, that's great. Thank you very much for inviting me. 35 00:02:13,169 --> 00:02:16,440 Professor Phil Reed: It's always a pleasure to talk about digital technology. 36 00:02:16,889 --> 00:02:20,610 Krutika Adatia: So Phil, let's start at the very beginning. Why are 37 00:02:20,610 --> 00:02:23,820 Krutika Adatia: our phones and digital devices so addictive? 38 00:02:24,210 --> 00:02:29,579 Professor Phil Reed: We struggle a lot with understanding addiction to anything really. 39 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:33,780 Professor Phil Reed: And there are always two aspects to addiction. The first 40 00:02:33,780 --> 00:02:38,070 Professor Phil Reed: is the thing to which people are addicted. Now, when 41 00:02:38,070 --> 00:02:41,820 Professor Phil Reed: we're talking about some substance, there are always some kind 42 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:46,710 Professor Phil Reed: of chemical reasons why that substance might hook people in. 43 00:02:46,980 --> 00:02:50,520 Professor Phil Reed: So whether it's nicotine or alcohol or a drug of 44 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:57,570 Professor Phil Reed: misuse, the physical chemical properties explain a little bit about 45 00:02:57,570 --> 00:03:03,330 Professor Phil Reed: it. When we're talking about behavioral addictions that psychologists like 46 00:03:03,330 --> 00:03:12,450 Professor Phil Reed: to call process addictions, people become a little bit wary about 47 00:03:12,450 --> 00:03:17,400 Professor Phil Reed: using that word addiction because they can't necessarily see that 48 00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:22,950 Professor Phil Reed: direct chemical physical link to why people would get hooked 49 00:03:22,950 --> 00:03:25,380 Professor Phil Reed: to this. So I think you have to look at 50 00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:28,590 Professor Phil Reed: what it's doing for the person. And this is true 51 00:03:28,590 --> 00:03:34,230 Professor Phil Reed: of substances as well. What role is that thing playing 52 00:03:34,230 --> 00:03:36,990 Professor Phil Reed: in their life? So there are always two aspects to 53 00:03:36,990 --> 00:03:41,190 Professor Phil Reed: explaining addiction. The first is the thing in itself and 54 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:46,470 Professor Phil Reed: the reason why digital devices are addictive. People are attracted 55 00:03:46,470 --> 00:03:50,970 Professor Phil Reed: to colorful, well- designed objects. But that can't explain it 56 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,830 Professor Phil Reed: in itself. There are aspects to the way the digital 57 00:03:55,830 --> 00:04:00,870 Professor Phil Reed: platform interacts with us, which is set up and programmed 58 00:04:01,260 --> 00:04:05,580 Professor Phil Reed: to be optimal to keep us going back to it. 59 00:04:06,510 --> 00:04:09,869 Professor Phil Reed: But also for the person, there usually has to be 60 00:04:10,170 --> 00:04:14,430 Professor Phil Reed: some kind of need, some kind of void that that 61 00:04:14,430 --> 00:04:19,650 Professor Phil Reed: behavior is filling. So it's a very tricky and complex 62 00:04:19,650 --> 00:04:22,920 Professor Phil Reed: question to answer. There's not a straightforward thing. You don't 63 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,920 Professor Phil Reed: pick up a phone and become instantly addicted. You don't 64 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,179 Professor Phil Reed: take a drink and become instantly addicted. There's an interaction 65 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:33,000 Professor Phil Reed: between the thing in itself and what's going on in 66 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,110 Professor Phil Reed: that person's life. 67 00:04:34,290 --> 00:04:36,540 Krutika Adatia: Yeah. Thank you. And I appreciate that it is such 68 00:04:36,540 --> 00:04:40,080 Krutika Adatia: a difficult question to answer. And you reference kind of 69 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,200 Krutika Adatia: nicotine and drug addiction, which in my mind feel like, 70 00:04:43,710 --> 00:04:46,800 Krutika Adatia: well, obvious bad things, I suppose. So I guess I 71 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,550 Krutika Adatia: wanted to ask, what is it that makes tech addiction 72 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,529 Krutika Adatia: a bad thing or is it? 73 00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:57,599 Professor Phil Reed: Addictions are defined in a number of different ways. One 74 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,930 Professor Phil Reed: of the ways they're defined is it has to disrupt 75 00:05:00,930 --> 00:05:07,320 Professor Phil Reed: somebody's life. And most psychological problems are defined in this 76 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,630 Professor Phil Reed: way. If it's not a problem, it's not a problem. So 77 00:05:09,630 --> 00:05:17,100 Professor Phil Reed: addiction is really about disruption. To what extent is that 78 00:05:18,150 --> 00:05:25,260 Professor Phil Reed: thing that you're focusing on becoming your primary relationship so 79 00:05:25,260 --> 00:05:29,040 Professor Phil Reed: that everything else in your life becomes secondary? So with 80 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:34,200 Professor Phil Reed: smartphones, really why it's bad is it depends on the 81 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:40,830 Professor Phil Reed: extent to which it's disrupting your life. If you're feeling 82 00:05:40,830 --> 00:05:44,339 Professor Phil Reed: bad about using it, and many people do, it's a 83 00:05:44,339 --> 00:05:49,710 Professor Phil Reed: problem. If other people in your life, which is more 84 00:05:49,710 --> 00:05:53,640 Professor Phil Reed: often the case, are feeling bad about you using it, 85 00:05:54,450 --> 00:05:55,470 Professor Phil Reed: then it's a problem. 86 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,250 Krutika Adatia: At what point do we know that we are addicted 87 00:05:59,250 --> 00:06:02,640 Krutika Adatia: to our devices or our phones? Because you mentioned the 88 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,240 Krutika Adatia: distraction and the time that you spend and is it 89 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,440 Krutika Adatia: creating a problem? So what's the line to actually say 90 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:12,270 Krutika Adatia: you're addicted to it? 91 00:06:12,719 --> 00:06:20,669 Professor Phil Reed: Addiction is very specific. Not only does it involve a disruption to your life, so 92 00:06:20,670 --> 00:06:23,760 Professor Phil Reed: if it's impacting your relationships, if it's impacting your work, 93 00:06:24,089 --> 00:06:27,690 Professor Phil Reed: it's a problem. But addiction also has to have another 94 00:06:27,690 --> 00:06:32,640 Professor Phil Reed: two components to it. The first one is called tolerance, 95 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,409 Professor Phil Reed: and that means that over time in order to get 96 00:06:37,410 --> 00:06:41,790 Professor Phil Reed: the same effect that you used to get, you have 97 00:06:41,790 --> 00:06:45,630 Professor Phil Reed: to do the activity or take the substance more and 98 00:06:45,630 --> 00:06:51,270 Professor Phil Reed: more often. So if you're noticing, " Hang on a minute, I'm doing 99 00:06:51,270 --> 00:06:56,339 Professor Phil Reed: more mobile phoning or doing more whatever it is, social 100 00:06:56,339 --> 00:06:59,849 Professor Phil Reed: media reading than I used to do." And it's creeping up and up, 101 00:07:02,010 --> 00:07:07,740 Professor Phil Reed: that could be telling you you're developing tolerance. The second 102 00:07:07,740 --> 00:07:14,010 Professor Phil Reed: issue is withdrawal. So when you're not on that device, 103 00:07:14,580 --> 00:07:17,730 Professor Phil Reed: do you start to feel a bit twitchy? Do you 104 00:07:17,730 --> 00:07:24,510 Professor Phil Reed: start to feel a bit anxious? Do you start checking 105 00:07:24,510 --> 00:07:29,430 Professor Phil Reed: your pocket or looking around for it? Do you feel 106 00:07:29,430 --> 00:07:35,610 Professor Phil Reed: a bit nervy? That could be signs that you're getting 107 00:07:35,610 --> 00:07:41,370 Professor Phil Reed: withdrawal effects. Studies suggest that those people who do use 108 00:07:41,370 --> 00:07:46,380 Professor Phil Reed: it excessively, when you wrestle their mobile phones off them 109 00:07:46,830 --> 00:07:49,410 Professor Phil Reed: and keep it away from them from a few hours, 110 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,670 Professor Phil Reed: and you measure their heart rate, their blood pressure, their 111 00:07:53,670 --> 00:07:58,800 Professor Phil Reed: skin conductance, which is basically how much you're sweating, all 112 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:04,620 Professor Phil Reed: of those things increase. It's exactly the same physical reaction 113 00:08:04,620 --> 00:08:09,570 Professor Phil Reed: that you would get if you stop taking a sedative 114 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:15,480 Professor Phil Reed: or a tranquilizer or even an opiate drug. Your system 115 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:24,240 Professor Phil Reed: would increase its activity because it's artificially being suppressed by 116 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,360 Professor Phil Reed: the drug, or in this case, by our activity on 117 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:32,309 Professor Phil Reed: mobile devices. Most people use them as a tranquilizer. They 118 00:08:32,309 --> 00:08:35,670 Professor Phil Reed: may not feel like that, but that's what it's doing to the body. 119 00:08:36,450 --> 00:08:39,449 Krutika Adatia: Wow. So tolerance and withdrawal, and I guess those are 120 00:08:39,450 --> 00:08:42,179 Krutika Adatia: the things our listeners need to look out for. I 121 00:08:42,179 --> 00:08:44,459 Krutika Adatia: mean, as you were talking, I was just thinking about 122 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,449 Krutika Adatia: our listeners who are potentially students studying for exams, Phil. 123 00:08:48,809 --> 00:08:52,350 Krutika Adatia: So there's likely to be an element of anxiety and 124 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:56,460 Krutika Adatia: stress that they are already experiencing because of the pressures 125 00:08:56,460 --> 00:09:00,090 Krutika Adatia: of wanting to pass the exam or studying towards an 126 00:09:00,090 --> 00:09:05,160 Krutika Adatia: exam and a qualification. So what impact does stress then 127 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,339 Krutika Adatia: have on the addictive behaviors? 128 00:09:09,450 --> 00:09:14,760 Professor Phil Reed: Stress is one of the great triggers. Under conditions of stress, if 129 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,400 Professor Phil Reed: you think about what happens to us, we start to 130 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:23,400 Professor Phil Reed: feel all of those physical aspects in our own bodies. We 131 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:30,750 Professor Phil Reed: start to feel uncomfortable. Subjectively, the mind starts racing. We 132 00:09:30,750 --> 00:09:35,190 Professor Phil Reed: start jumping around from one thing to another in our heads, " 133 00:09:35,429 --> 00:09:37,260 Professor Phil Reed: Should I do this? Should I do that? What should I 134 00:09:37,260 --> 00:09:42,059 Professor Phil Reed: do?" One of the things that relieves that can be 135 00:09:42,510 --> 00:09:48,270 Professor Phil Reed: disappearing into a virtual world. It stops all of that 136 00:09:48,270 --> 00:09:54,870 Professor Phil Reed: real world stress, removes us from that situation and it's 137 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:59,579 Professor Phil Reed: an easy, quick fix. Of course, that just makes the 138 00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:02,880 Professor Phil Reed: problem worse because when you come back to the real 139 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,710 Professor Phil Reed: world, all of the stuff that caused you to enter your 140 00:10:07,710 --> 00:10:14,460 Professor Phil Reed: addiction is still there, and probably worse, because now your 141 00:10:14,460 --> 00:10:20,490 Professor Phil Reed: exam is 12 hours closer and you still haven't done anything. 142 00:10:21,210 --> 00:10:26,429 Professor Phil Reed: Sadly, items of addiction, like digital devices, are an easy 143 00:10:26,429 --> 00:10:31,860 Professor Phil Reed: way to relieve it. Under periods of stress, that's when 144 00:10:31,860 --> 00:10:33,300 Professor Phil Reed: they can relapse. 145 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,410 Krutika Adatia: So what would you advise our listeners to kind of 146 00:10:37,410 --> 00:10:39,990 Krutika Adatia: manage that? I mean, I mentioned at the beginning that 147 00:10:40,230 --> 00:10:44,250 Krutika Adatia: when I got my first mobile phone, I sort of 148 00:10:44,250 --> 00:10:47,700 Krutika Adatia: realized the addictive potential that it could potentially have. So 149 00:10:47,700 --> 00:10:49,500 Krutika Adatia: I would try and switch it off or put it 150 00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:52,230 Krutika Adatia: in another room. So are there things like that that our 151 00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:55,770 Krutika Adatia: students, our listeners could do to try and avoid going 152 00:10:55,770 --> 00:10:59,490 Krutika Adatia: down that rabbit hole of just scrolling or using it 153 00:10:59,490 --> 00:11:03,390 Krutika Adatia: as a distraction, going into that virtual kind of environment 154 00:11:03,390 --> 00:11:06,390 Krutika Adatia: to escape what they're meant to be doing in reality? 155 00:11:06,750 --> 00:11:10,199 Professor Phil Reed: Yeah. I think the things you've described are very, very 156 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,179 Professor Phil Reed: sensible. You don't have to be on 24 hours a 157 00:11:15,179 --> 00:11:21,390 Professor Phil Reed: day. You don't have to be contactable 24 hours a 158 00:11:21,390 --> 00:11:26,640 Professor Phil Reed: day. I know that's tricky, especially when some of your 159 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:33,750 Professor Phil Reed: listeners will undoubtedly become self- employed. They will work that 160 00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:38,070 Professor Phil Reed: way. They'll not want to miss clients. But even self- 161 00:11:38,070 --> 00:11:45,120 Professor Phil Reed: employed people need time away from work. It's okay to 162 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,220 Professor Phil Reed: be connected 6, 8, 10 hours a day if you 163 00:11:50,220 --> 00:11:54,510 Professor Phil Reed: know why you're connected. But when you don't need it, 164 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,490 Professor Phil Reed: put it away. Put those boundaries in place and stick to them. 165 00:12:00,780 --> 00:12:04,410 Krutika Adatia: How can we put those boundaries in place? Is the 166 00:12:04,410 --> 00:12:07,410 Krutika Adatia: fact that we are working in a more digital environment 167 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,670 Krutika Adatia: exacerbating that tech addiction as well? 168 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:18,989 Professor Phil Reed: I think the difficulty here is that when people are 169 00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:26,640 Professor Phil Reed: working remotely, there's a degree of social disconnectedness that they're 170 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:32,670 Professor Phil Reed: going to experience. Knowing work, we need times to be 171 00:12:32,670 --> 00:12:36,870 Professor Phil Reed: on our own. We need times of privacy. We need 172 00:12:36,870 --> 00:12:41,250 Professor Phil Reed: times of quiet to get on with things. But also, 173 00:12:42,059 --> 00:12:46,620 Professor Phil Reed: part of work is being able to talk to colleagues, 174 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:54,000 Professor Phil Reed: to interact with colleagues, to generate a social bond, which 175 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,420 Professor Phil Reed: can be work bond, where it can just be stress 176 00:12:57,420 --> 00:13:03,600 Professor Phil Reed: relief as well, having a chat about something. Working remotely 177 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,670 Professor Phil Reed: kind of excludes people from this. The digital connection you 178 00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:14,520 Professor Phil Reed: get doesn't necessarily replace that real world social connection. But 179 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,510 Professor Phil Reed: if you can maintain real physical connection with other people, 180 00:13:18,510 --> 00:13:26,819 Professor Phil Reed: it reduces your urge to use the digital device to try and 181 00:13:26,820 --> 00:13:29,460 Professor Phil Reed: do that. Just take a bit of effort to go 182 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:32,550 Professor Phil Reed: out to talk to people, but even the most introverted 183 00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:37,920 Professor Phil Reed: person will actually gain something from social contact, even if 184 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,939 Professor Phil Reed: they don't necessarily want to do it. But because it 185 00:13:41,940 --> 00:13:47,880 Professor Phil Reed: requires effort, people retreat from it very easily, retreat to 186 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:54,449 Professor Phil Reed: the digital device. It's not a substitute. And the studies tell us 187 00:13:54,450 --> 00:13:59,939 Professor Phil Reed: this. People become lonelier when the only interaction they have 188 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,130 Professor Phil Reed: is through digital means. 189 00:14:02,490 --> 00:14:06,030 Krutika Adatia: Often we turn to these tools to feel some kind 190 00:14:06,030 --> 00:14:08,730 Krutika Adatia: of connection, but it's not always achieving that. And that's a 191 00:14:08,730 --> 00:14:12,480 Krutika Adatia: really interesting point, because in a previous series we spoke 192 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,770 Krutika Adatia: to a guest who was an expert in voicing about 193 00:14:16,770 --> 00:14:21,210 Krutika Adatia: connection and the need for people to actually have that face- to- 194 00:14:21,210 --> 00:14:26,250 Krutika Adatia: face time. And students are often looking for study buddies, 195 00:14:26,310 --> 00:14:29,280 Krutika Adatia: that they're looking for a community of students who are 196 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,580 Krutika Adatia: also studying at the same time as them, so that 197 00:14:32,580 --> 00:14:36,000 Krutika Adatia: they can share their struggles, their challenges, maybe learn from 198 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,710 Krutika Adatia: one another as well. So are we saying then essentially 199 00:14:40,950 --> 00:14:44,400 Krutika Adatia: that our phones and digital devices perhaps aren't always the 200 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,470 Krutika Adatia: best way to achieve that? 201 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,220 Professor Phil Reed: They're a way to achieve it, but they're far from 202 00:14:50,220 --> 00:14:56,550 Professor Phil Reed: optimal. You're quite right, having somebody to study with is 203 00:14:56,550 --> 00:15:01,470 Professor Phil Reed: better than not and having digital contact is better than 204 00:15:01,470 --> 00:15:07,590 Professor Phil Reed: having no contact at all. But ideally, those study groups 205 00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:15,390 Professor Phil Reed: would be local so that maybe they could meet up 206 00:15:15,450 --> 00:15:19,440 Professor Phil Reed: once in a while in real time. That doesn't have to be every 207 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,710 Professor Phil Reed: week or even every month. But once in a while, 208 00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:28,830 Professor Phil Reed: knowing that that's a possibility, is a nice safety blanket. 209 00:15:28,830 --> 00:15:33,960 Professor Phil Reed: And sometimes the possibility is all that people need and may not use it and 210 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:39,900 Professor Phil Reed: that's fine. But that kind of studying group, very, very 211 00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:42,600 Professor Phil Reed: good idea to overcome that digital isolation. 212 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Krutika Adatia: Now, when students are studying, if potentially they cut back 213 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,920 Krutika Adatia: on their phone usage, let's say, why can it feel 214 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:58,800 Krutika Adatia: surprisingly uncomfortable and more stressful when a student does try 215 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,460 Krutika Adatia: and manage their kind of tech addiction or phone addiction and 216 00:16:02,460 --> 00:16:04,500 Krutika Adatia: try and reduce it? 217 00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:08,160 Professor Phil Reed: There will be some withdrawal effects if you've been overusing 218 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:13,320 Professor Phil Reed: it. These will pass. It'll be very uncomfortable for a 219 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,800 Professor Phil Reed: while, and that discomfort will probably get worse before it 220 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:21,270 Professor Phil Reed: gets better. Being uncomfortable is not necessarily a bad thing 221 00:16:22,020 --> 00:16:27,510 Professor Phil Reed: in itself. Feeling stressed, feeling anxious, it's just a feeling. 222 00:16:29,370 --> 00:16:31,560 Professor Phil Reed: There's nothing physical. Even if you feel your heart rate 223 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:38,220 Professor Phil Reed: increasing, it's just stress. It will pass and you need to work through that and sit with 224 00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:43,740 Professor Phil Reed: it. It will go away. The second thing is harder. 225 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,000 Professor Phil Reed: Sometimes it's not the physical product of withdrawal that makes 226 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:53,190 Professor Phil Reed: people feel uncomfortable, but there are some people who fear 227 00:16:53,190 --> 00:16:57,300 Professor Phil Reed: missing out. And we have that thing called FOMO, a 228 00:16:57,300 --> 00:16:58,002 Professor Phil Reed: fear of (inaudible) - 229 00:16:58,002 --> 00:16:58,003 Krutika Adatia: FOMO. 230 00:16:58,003 --> 00:17:05,369 Professor Phil Reed: That usually stems from some other issues that that person might 231 00:17:05,369 --> 00:17:11,940 Professor Phil Reed: have, and that probably needs a bit of reflection on 232 00:17:11,940 --> 00:17:14,550 Professor Phil Reed: the person itself. And I would actually put the case 233 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:17,580 Professor Phil Reed: for what I would call JOMO, which is the joy of 234 00:17:17,580 --> 00:17:21,030 Professor Phil Reed: missing out. There's a joy to missing out. You don't 235 00:17:21,030 --> 00:17:25,320 Professor Phil Reed: have to be connected and you should relish the fact 236 00:17:25,890 --> 00:17:29,609 Professor Phil Reed: that you're missing out. I mean, how many of us 237 00:17:29,609 --> 00:17:33,840 Professor Phil Reed: actually relish missing the news these days because we just 238 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,080 Professor Phil Reed: don't want to hear it. If you get through that 239 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,090 Professor Phil Reed: withdrawal, and that shouldn't last more than a few days, 240 00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:49,500 Professor Phil Reed: if you're still feeling anxious and twitching, you ask yourself, " 241 00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:52,530 Professor Phil Reed: Well, am I doing all the things I absolutely have 242 00:17:52,530 --> 00:17:56,850 Professor Phil Reed: to on my digital device? Am I connecting with clients? 243 00:17:56,850 --> 00:18:01,200 Professor Phil Reed: Am I connecting with my tutors? Am I connecting with 244 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,280 Professor Phil Reed: the material? Am I doing everything that I need to?" 245 00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:13,679 Professor Phil Reed: If you are, then that stress is probably coming from you thinking, " 246 00:18:14,190 --> 00:18:16,170 Professor Phil Reed: What's going on? Am I missing something?" 247 00:18:16,380 --> 00:18:19,740 Krutika Adatia: Let it go. The song from Frozen just came up 248 00:18:19,740 --> 00:18:24,060 Krutika Adatia: in my head there, Let It Go. Now, actually, as 249 00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:26,609 Krutika Adatia: you were talking, when you mentioned FOMO, I'm just thinking 250 00:18:26,609 --> 00:18:29,669 Krutika Adatia: about the notifications that I often see pinging up on 251 00:18:29,670 --> 00:18:32,669 Krutika Adatia: my phone, especially if, let's say, I've posted on a 252 00:18:32,670 --> 00:18:36,480 Krutika Adatia: social media channel, whether it's LinkedIn or Instagram, and there's 253 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,719 Krutika Adatia: something so compelling about wanting to go back in and 254 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,420 Krutika Adatia: check, how many likes have I got? How many comments 255 00:18:42,420 --> 00:18:46,170 Krutika Adatia: have I got? So what is it about instant feedback 256 00:18:46,170 --> 00:18:49,260 Krutika Adatia: that makes it so hard for us to ignore and 257 00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:51,060 Krutika Adatia: not go in and check? 258 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:58,650 Professor Phil Reed: You know, that instant feedback is a sign of you 259 00:18:58,650 --> 00:19:03,629 Professor Phil Reed: think you're controlling something, you think you've done something and 260 00:19:03,630 --> 00:19:08,190 Professor Phil Reed: you get that immediate outcome. It's like when you're waiting 261 00:19:08,190 --> 00:19:11,879 Professor Phil Reed: at one of those pedestrian crossings and you want to 262 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,550 Professor Phil Reed: cross the road and you press the button and the 263 00:19:14,550 --> 00:19:17,760 Professor Phil Reed: green person comes on on the other side. And you think, " 264 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,060 Professor Phil Reed: I did that. I made that happen." And we all 265 00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:25,770 Professor Phil Reed: get that instant sense of power that we have made 266 00:19:25,770 --> 00:19:28,980 Professor Phil Reed: the green person light up on the other side and 267 00:19:28,980 --> 00:19:31,920 Professor Phil Reed: that feels good. Of course it's nothing to do with 268 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:40,800 Professor Phil Reed: us whatsoever. But we are to some extent hardwired to 269 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:49,710 Professor Phil Reed: respond to instant feedback. But alongside that physical reaction, that 270 00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:53,340 Professor Phil Reed: reflex that we get, is all of these feelings that 271 00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:56,879 Professor Phil Reed: come with it, and control is one of them. And most 272 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,930 Professor Phil Reed: people like to feel some degree of control, and this 273 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,830 Professor Phil Reed: to them seems like a way of getting it. Of 274 00:20:05,730 --> 00:20:10,679 Professor Phil Reed: course it's not. And what you've got to remember is 275 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:16,080 Professor Phil Reed: that when somebody likes something that you've written, you don't 276 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,460 Professor Phil Reed: necessarily get to know when they've liked it. So it's 277 00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:27,480 Professor Phil Reed: not immediate feedback. This feedback is delivered to us whenever 278 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,230 Professor Phil Reed: the social media company thinks it's going to be most 279 00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:34,800 Professor Phil Reed: optimal to receive it. Like the green person at the 280 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,869 Professor Phil Reed: control, nothing to do with you. This is the device 281 00:20:40,859 --> 00:20:45,450 Professor Phil Reed: on a timer. Somebody else has set that schedule up. 282 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,310 Professor Phil Reed: Don't dance to its tune. So you might feel you're 283 00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:55,409 Professor Phil Reed: in control and that's why that's so powerful, you're not. 284 00:20:55,950 --> 00:20:59,880 Krutika Adatia: Yeah. And that delayed notification, actually I have noticed it 285 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:05,010 Krutika Adatia: because I have turned off my notifications, Phil, across my 286 00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:07,590 Krutika Adatia: social media apps on my phone as a way to 287 00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:11,879 Krutika Adatia: regain control for myself. And I do occasionally notice that 288 00:21:12,090 --> 00:21:14,250 Krutika Adatia: when I haven't been using them for a little while, 289 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,209 Krutika Adatia: I'll pop in and I'll see on the notification backlog that, " 290 00:21:18,210 --> 00:21:21,119 Krutika Adatia: Hey, somebody's liked this post," but actually I know that 291 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,280 Krutika Adatia: they liked it a little while back because I happened 292 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,400 Krutika Adatia: to have dipped into the app and seen that they'd 293 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,459 Krutika Adatia: liked it before. So really, really good point and an 294 00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:32,699 Krutika Adatia: important one for our listeners to take on board. Just 295 00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:36,240 Krutika Adatia: to sort of wrap up, I suppose. I mean, our 296 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,830 Krutika Adatia: students are often using their devices for study potentially as 297 00:21:40,830 --> 00:21:44,010 Krutika Adatia: well. And I referenced that in the introduction. So they 298 00:21:44,010 --> 00:21:48,390 Krutika Adatia: might be using certain learning apps or the ACCA Student Accountant 299 00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:52,170 Krutika Adatia: app like I referenced earlier as well. So how can 300 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,889 Krutika Adatia: a student manage that? How do they manage the kind 301 00:21:55,890 --> 00:22:01,980 Krutika Adatia: of mindless scrolling versus also using these devices for meaningful purposes? 302 00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:04,679 Professor Phil Reed: Again, it's going back to that thing we were talking 303 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,970 Professor Phil Reed: about before about just being mindful about why you're using 304 00:22:08,970 --> 00:22:11,820 Professor Phil Reed: the device. Of course, we've all got to use digital 305 00:22:11,820 --> 00:22:15,930 Professor Phil Reed: devices, apps, platforms in our work. We all do that 306 00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:20,250 Professor Phil Reed: now. And that's fine, just because you're using it doesn't mean 307 00:22:20,250 --> 00:22:22,260 Professor Phil Reed: that you're going to have a problem with it. But 308 00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:26,310 Professor Phil Reed: as you've said, you're using it for a purpose, for 309 00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:30,030 Professor Phil Reed: an end. Keep that in mind, " I'm now doing this 310 00:22:30,180 --> 00:22:35,820 Professor Phil Reed: because," and then complete the sentence. If you find yourself 311 00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:39,090 Professor Phil Reed: doing it and when you put that sentence, " I'm doing 312 00:22:39,090 --> 00:22:42,388 Professor Phil Reed: this because," and you can't easily think of the because, there's 313 00:22:42,388 --> 00:22:47,940 Professor Phil Reed: no reason to be doing it. Remind yourself, I'm now 314 00:22:47,940 --> 00:22:53,070 Professor Phil Reed: doing this because the social media company wants me to 315 00:22:53,070 --> 00:22:56,669 Professor Phil Reed: do it. This is me being controlled. And if you 316 00:22:56,670 --> 00:23:00,480 Professor Phil Reed: are so keen on controlling yourself, and most of us 317 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,619 Professor Phil Reed: are, then this is another way we can get back 318 00:23:04,619 --> 00:23:07,859 Professor Phil Reed: that control. Why don't you just turn off your social 319 00:23:07,859 --> 00:23:12,359 Professor Phil Reed: media and go and do something more interesting? Because you're just 320 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,179 Professor Phil Reed: killing time now. If you put a rat in a 321 00:23:15,180 --> 00:23:20,430 Professor Phil Reed: box and you deliver food to the rat every two 322 00:23:20,430 --> 00:23:25,980 Professor Phil Reed: minutes, you can put a water bottle in there alongside, 323 00:23:26,580 --> 00:23:31,560 Professor Phil Reed: and what you see is the rat's drinking increases dramatically 324 00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:36,420 Professor Phil Reed: in between the delivery of the pellets. This is called 325 00:23:36,420 --> 00:23:41,910 Professor Phil Reed: schedule induced behavior. It's an adjunct behavior. It's not necessary. 326 00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:46,260 Professor Phil Reed: It just fills the time. Because a rat's in this 327 00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:50,550 Professor Phil Reed: box, it's got nothing else to do, looks around, sees the 328 00:23:50,550 --> 00:23:54,179 Professor Phil Reed: drink and thinks, " Oh, I may as well have a 329 00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:58,560 Professor Phil Reed: drink then." And the drinking increases to fill the time. 330 00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:04,200 Professor Phil Reed: A lot of our social media use is just that. 331 00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:08,429 Professor Phil Reed: It's just filling the gaps in between other things. You 332 00:24:08,430 --> 00:24:11,340 Professor Phil Reed: could fill that with anything. There are plenty of things 333 00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:14,310 Professor Phil Reed: that you can do. If you can't complete the sentence, " 334 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,179 Professor Phil Reed: I'm doing this because," then there's no reason for you 335 00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:24,090 Professor Phil Reed: to be doing it. If you complete that, "I'm doing it because I'm enjoying it," great. 336 00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:28,859 Krutika Adatia: Thank you so much, Phil. I mean, just you've said 337 00:24:28,859 --> 00:24:31,590 Krutika Adatia: so many wonderful things throughout this conversation by way of 338 00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:34,500 Krutika Adatia: tips and golden nuggets, but if you were to summarize 339 00:24:34,650 --> 00:24:38,820 Krutika Adatia: three top tips for managing tech addiction, what would those 340 00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:40,290 Krutika Adatia: tips be for our listeners? 341 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,330 Professor Phil Reed: My key thing would be just to say no. Be mindful about why you're doing 342 00:24:45,330 --> 00:24:49,680 Professor Phil Reed: it. Remind yourself of the other things you enjoy doing it, and primarily 343 00:24:50,369 --> 00:24:52,050 Professor Phil Reed: say no as long as you can. 344 00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:56,220 Krutika Adatia: Great tips. I feel like digital detox and saying no 345 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:58,290 Krutika Adatia: is probably something I can do with as well. But 346 00:24:58,710 --> 00:25:02,669 Krutika Adatia: thank you so much, Phil. That's been a really insightful conversation. 347 00:25:02,670 --> 00:25:03,359 Professor Phil Reed: Well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me. 348 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,669 Krutika Adatia: That's it from this episode of On Your Marks. Thank 349 00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:12,210 Krutika Adatia: you, Phil, for chatting with me today. For more information 350 00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:17,938 Krutika Adatia: about ACCA exams, you can go to www. accaglobal. com/ 351 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,200 Krutika Adatia: exams. And to watch the video version of this podcast, 352 00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:24,990 Krutika Adatia: check out the link in the show notes. See you 353 00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:28,709 Krutika Adatia: next time. I'm Krutika Adatia and this has been On Your 354 00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:31,710 Krutika Adatia: Marks. On Your Marks is a Fresh Air Production for 355 00:25:31,710 --> 00:25:36,810 Krutika Adatia: ACCA. Its producers are Eva Higginbotham, Annie Day and Finley 356 00:25:36,810 --> 00:25:39,359 Krutika Adatia: Macrae. It's edited by Helen Quigley.