WEBVTT - Who’s tackling terror? 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.890 Before we begin, this is a podcast about terrorism, which 0:00:03.890 --> 0:00:06.580 means we do talk about acts of terror and extreme 0:00:06.580 --> 0:00:10.170 violence sometimes in quite a lot of detail, so you 0:00:10.170 --> 0:00:16.300 might find some of the following material upsetting. Hello, I'm 0:00:16.300 --> 0:00:21.500 Adnan Sarwar. This is Taking Apart Terror. And if someone 0:00:21.500 --> 0:00:24.510 says counter terrorism, isn't this what happens in your head? 0:00:40.510 --> 0:00:42.811 Delta (inaudible) the team full situation, 10-34. 0:00:42.811 --> 0:00:43.001 Copy that, Delta (inaudible) about five minutes. 0:00:43.001 --> 0:00:43.003 (inaudible) three minutes. 0:00:43.003 --> 0:00:43.006 Copy that, (inaudible) . 0:00:43.100 --> 0:00:46.700 The fight against terrorism takes many forms. Of course there 0:00:46.700 --> 0:00:49.260 are special ops and SWAT teams, but they are only 0:00:49.260 --> 0:00:52.589 one part of the effort. The world of counter terrorism 0:00:52.590 --> 0:00:55.440 is as much about understanding what's in people's heads and 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.380 hearts and listening to what communities are saying as it 0:00:58.380 --> 0:01:02.010 is about guns, and spies, and assets. This time, we're 0:01:02.010 --> 0:01:04.160 trying to discover more about what the world is actually 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:07.459 trying to do to stop extremists, or as we've called 0:01:07.459 --> 0:01:14.530 this episode, Who's Tackling Terror? To answer that question. I'm 0:01:14.530 --> 0:01:17.340 joined by three people who know great deal about counter 0:01:17.340 --> 0:01:22.120 terrorism. Firstly, two of our regular panelists, Dr. Shiraz Maher 0:01:22.180 --> 0:01:24.839 is director of the International Centre for the Study of 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.950 Radicalization and Political Violence at King's College, London. Hello, Shiraz. 0:01:28.950 --> 0:01:29.810 Thanks for being here. 0:01:29.980 --> 0:01:30.720 Hi. Hi. 0:01:31.220 --> 0:01:33.669 And we have Naureen Chowdhury Fink, who is director of 0:01:33.670 --> 0:01:37.009 the Soufan Center in New York, where their research focuses 0:01:37.010 --> 0:01:41.530 particularly on counter- terrorism, violent extremism, armed conflict, and the 0:01:41.530 --> 0:01:44.380 rule of law. Hey, Naureen lovely to speak to you again. 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:46.179 Hi, Adnan. Great to be with you. 0:01:46.610 --> 0:01:49.510 And our guest in this edition is Margaret Coker, who, 0:01:49.510 --> 0:01:52.430 as an investigative journalist, has lived and worked in Iraq 0:01:52.430 --> 0:01:55.950 for nearly 20 years, including being the Baghdad Bureau Chief 0:01:55.950 --> 0:01:59.010 for the New York Times. Plus she's also the author 0:01:59.030 --> 0:02:03.220 of The Spymaster of Baghdad, described as the untold story 0:02:03.220 --> 0:02:05.910 of the elite intelligence cell that turned the tide against 0:02:05.910 --> 0:02:09.260 ISIS, and which ultimately led to the killing of ISIS 0:02:09.260 --> 0:02:13.370 leader, Abu Bakr al- Baghdadi, in 2019. Margaret, thanks for 0:02:13.370 --> 0:02:13.899 joining us. 0:02:14.050 --> 0:02:14.681 Thanks for having me, Adnan. 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:18.040 Shiraz, if I could start with you. Can I just 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:22.150 get a very basic overview of the kind of efforts 0:02:22.150 --> 0:02:25.419 that governments are putting into this? Are governments working together 0:02:25.419 --> 0:02:27.880 in a kind of joined up way to fight against Daesh? 0:02:28.500 --> 0:02:31.570 Yeah, I think we've seen a number of multilateral efforts 0:02:31.570 --> 0:02:34.870 to counter Daesh, whether that's at the military level, where, 0:02:34.870 --> 0:02:37.919 of course, there was a global coalition that came together 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:42.430 to launch kinetic action against Daesh when it held territory 0:02:42.430 --> 0:02:47.000 across both Syria and Iraq. Beyond that, broader intelligence sharing 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.829 in the west to counter the terrorist threat, particularly when 0:02:49.830 --> 0:02:53.630 it was extremely acute for countries such as France and 0:02:53.630 --> 0:02:56.900 Germany and Belgium, and I think that's coupled with broader, 0:02:56.900 --> 0:02:59.720 again, intelligence sharing and diplomatic efforts then that have been 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:04.450 taking place between Western countries, Gulf countries. So you are 0:03:04.450 --> 0:03:09.410 seeing different levels of cooperation taking place, and a phenomenon 0:03:09.450 --> 0:03:13.609 such as Daesh, which is itself so multifaceted, requires that 0:03:13.610 --> 0:03:17.060 level of intense effort that that's coming at it from 0:03:17.130 --> 0:03:18.519 a number of different directions. 0:03:19.290 --> 0:03:21.510 Naureen, would you say that was true? Would you say 0:03:21.510 --> 0:03:24.540 that a lot of governments have realized that this is 0:03:24.620 --> 0:03:27.110 everybody's problem and not just a problem that's over there 0:03:27.180 --> 0:03:28.310 and they're working together now? 0:03:28.850 --> 0:03:31.740 There's been a tremendous effort in places like the UN 0:03:31.740 --> 0:03:34.870 to look at sort of post Al- Qaeda terrorism as 0:03:34.870 --> 0:03:39.830 a truly transnational threat. And unlike terrorism in earlier decades, 0:03:39.830 --> 0:03:42.720 which was really dealt with each country on its own, 0:03:43.100 --> 0:03:46.910 there are a number of frameworks and international efforts that 0:03:46.910 --> 0:03:50.840 have been developed to deal with more transnational groups like Al- 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.930 Qaeda and ISIS, for sure. And I think it tends 0:03:53.930 --> 0:03:56.730 not to be terribly sexy to talk about the UN 0:03:56.940 --> 0:03:59.530 and counter terrorism. There isn't a SWAT team. There isn't 0:03:59.530 --> 0:04:03.100 a military. It's a lot of civilian efforts, but we 0:04:03.100 --> 0:04:06.540 actually need a number of rules and frameworks in order 0:04:06.540 --> 0:04:08.640 for countries to be able to work together in the 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.290 first place. So one of the things to keep in 0:04:11.290 --> 0:04:14.260 mind is that there's an end goal to counter terrorism. 0:04:14.260 --> 0:04:16.920 It's not about killing terrorist, it's about bringing them to 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:21.839 justice, it's about prosecution, it's about some kind of justice 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:26.240 for victims and actual capacity building support so states can 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.610 do this. And a lot of that stuff never makes 0:04:28.610 --> 0:04:30.710 the news, but it's what you need in order to 0:04:30.710 --> 0:04:33.589 prosecute a terrorist, in order to hold them accountable for 0:04:33.589 --> 0:04:34.210 what they did. 0:04:34.470 --> 0:04:36.870 Margaret, one of the main things you are doing is 0:04:36.870 --> 0:04:39.250 this kind of revisionism where you're saying, " It's not just 0:04:39.250 --> 0:04:41.830 the US, and it's not just the British who did 0:04:41.830 --> 0:04:44.409 something about this. It was Iraqis as well." And your 0:04:44.410 --> 0:04:47.760 book puts that right in the center of the story. 0:04:47.970 --> 0:04:49.250 Can you tell us more about that? 0:04:49.810 --> 0:04:53.270 Yeah, so it's very rare to have tales of heroism 0:04:53.270 --> 0:04:56.310 coming from the Islamic world. We know that it's sexy 0:04:56.310 --> 0:04:59.140 to have fire fights on screen and to have, kill 0:04:59.140 --> 0:05:01.890 counts of terrorists. What we know is a harder story 0:05:01.890 --> 0:05:04.330 to write and report is the actual people on the 0:05:04.330 --> 0:05:07.830 ground whose countries have been torn apart by this violence, 0:05:08.020 --> 0:05:10.490 about how they suit up and go to work and 0:05:10.490 --> 0:05:13.020 try and make their countries a better place. And so 0:05:13.020 --> 0:05:16.180 The Spymaster of Baghdad brings to life the stories of 0:05:16.180 --> 0:05:19.400 three people. One is the man that I call the 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.800 Spymaster of Baghdad, and he's the head of this small, 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:26.001 elite intelligence unit. And they're called the Falcons, (foreign language) 0:05:27.140 --> 0:05:29.980 in Arabic. You know, they've risen from the ashes of 0:05:29.980 --> 0:05:34.710 Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and they have sort of specialized in 0:05:34.710 --> 0:05:39.760 this very sort of high profile and narrow goal, which is 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.240 to target the leadership of first Al- Qaeda in Iraq, 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.870 and then the Islamic State, when it announced itself in 0:05:46.870 --> 0:05:50.289 2014, and then two of his officers. And I tell 0:05:50.290 --> 0:05:53.160 the stories about this band of brothers, how they tried 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.690 to recreate a culture of intelligence gathering in a country 0:05:57.690 --> 0:06:00.159 like Iraq, that, for so many years was known as 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.990 the Republic of Fear, because of the secret police and 0:06:02.990 --> 0:06:08.400 the intelligence apparatus that Saddam oversaw. And they've been incredibly 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:13.460 successful in their work, because they have basically gone old 0:06:13.460 --> 0:06:15.820 school. You know, as the Western world has gone high 0:06:15.820 --> 0:06:20.660 tech with a big emphasis on electronic surveillance, they have 0:06:20.660 --> 0:06:26.529 stayed finding human sources, cultivating human networks, and actually understanding 0:06:26.529 --> 0:06:30.470 the networks in which Jihadi terrorist groups work and operate. 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:35.359 And then by getting inside those organizations, by turning double 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:41.260 agents through a variety of personal, cultural, psychological tools, they've 0:06:41.260 --> 0:06:44.750 been able to really infiltrate and then destroy from within. 0:06:45.420 --> 0:06:48.790 So Naureen, Margaret's talking about destroying from within. What about 0:06:48.990 --> 0:06:51.560 what's going on outside? Are there things going on behind 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.560 the scenes internationally that we don't know about? 0:06:54.150 --> 0:06:57.409 Well, there's a lot. I think that one of the key 0:06:57.410 --> 0:07:00.730 things is that, you know, a lot of follow up 0:07:00.730 --> 0:07:03.860 has to take place in terms of bringing a counter 0:07:03.860 --> 0:07:07.419 terrorism operation through to some kind of prosecution or some 0:07:07.420 --> 0:07:10.670 kind of accountability mechanism. And in order to have a 0:07:10.670 --> 0:07:14.440 successful prosecution, we need evidence. A lot of that evidence 0:07:14.490 --> 0:07:17.929 is in the battlefield. And so I think there's certainly 0:07:17.930 --> 0:07:22.550 the ongoing kinetic operations that are more targeted at groups, 0:07:22.820 --> 0:07:26.130 but I also think that long process of collecting evidence, 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.300 making sure we're putting out fires where they're popping out, 0:07:29.700 --> 0:07:33.340 and making sure there is a sustainable political solution, I 0:07:33.340 --> 0:07:36.260 think that's the huge problem we're facing, that in the 0:07:36.260 --> 0:07:39.560 absence of any kind of political certainty about what comes 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.340 next, we are, you know, we're looking at a potential 0:07:43.340 --> 0:07:47.250 lull before we see another round of groups emerging. 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.680 So there is lots happening, Naureen, but, like you said, this is 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.410 a lull, you know, and there's going to be more. So 0:07:53.410 --> 0:07:56.290 it doesn't sound like we're doing very well. Shiraz, what could 0:07:56.290 --> 0:07:58.960 we be doing better when it comes to countering terrorism? 0:07:59.330 --> 0:08:02.640 We've had two decades of a war on terror, and 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.820 here we are with a threat landscape that is more 0:08:05.820 --> 0:08:10.970 diffuse than it was on September the 11th, 2001. You've 0:08:10.970 --> 0:08:16.580 seen an ideological splintering and fragmentation of what might be 0:08:16.580 --> 0:08:21.230 called a Salafi Jihadi tradition, which has taken on hugely 0:08:21.230 --> 0:08:25.360 localized characteristics all the way from Indonesia through to Mali, 0:08:25.620 --> 0:08:29.500 and pretty much everywhere in between. And so in that 0:08:29.500 --> 0:08:31.730 sense, it would be hard to say, we've got it 0:08:31.730 --> 0:08:35.610 right. There are a number of different approaches, and part 0:08:35.610 --> 0:08:38.420 of that does involve the hard element, which is the 0:08:38.420 --> 0:08:40.280 military side of things. But a lot of this is 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.460 also about the same thing we've been talking about for 0:08:42.470 --> 0:08:45.270 two decades, right? Ever since 9/ 11, the hearts and 0:08:45.270 --> 0:08:48.380 minds component, and I don't think anyone has yet cracked 0:08:48.380 --> 0:08:50.819 it, that's the problem. And I think part of it 0:08:51.700 --> 0:08:54.240 is the way that we framed these things. We, for 0:08:54.309 --> 0:08:56.350 ages, it was always said, you know, " What is the 0:08:56.350 --> 0:09:00.520 counter narrative to the vision ISIS is selling young British 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.830 Muslims or young French Muslims or young American Muslims?" And 0:09:03.830 --> 0:09:05.319 I also thought that was quite a perverse way of 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:09.240 framing it, because surely ISIS should have been sitting there saying, " 0:09:09.540 --> 0:09:11.870 What's the counter narrative to the American dream? What's the 0:09:11.870 --> 0:09:15.540 counter narrative to the successful British Muslim, to the successful French 0:09:15.540 --> 0:09:18.610 Muslim?" So we seeded the center ground already for them 0:09:18.610 --> 0:09:22.079 by establishing ourselves as doing a counter narrative to their 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.640 vision, whereas we didn't have a vision of our own 0:09:24.690 --> 0:09:26.200 that they were having to rail against. 0:09:27.470 --> 0:09:32.099 Countering terrorism through creating a counter narrative. It's about giving 0:09:32.100 --> 0:09:34.480 people another way of looking at things, another way of 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:38.770 being. [Fawzia al-Harbi 00:09:35] is a teacher from Raqqa who decided that 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.900 what she could do against Daesh was to empower people 0:09:41.900 --> 0:09:44.820 through education, and the people she wanted to help the 0:09:44.820 --> 0:09:49.500 most were women. She started in secret during the occupation. 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:53.002 (foreign language) . 0:09:53.450 --> 0:09:56.640 Life was surely very difficult under Daesh's rule. It was 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.850 very difficult for all parts of society, including men and 0:09:59.850 --> 0:10:04.100 women, although women suffered the most. They destroyed women and 0:10:04.100 --> 0:10:08.800 their presence entirely deeming them. Only responsible for housework. Women 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.359 were forbidden from leaving home, being productive, or fulfilling their 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.630 role in building society. They repressed women despite them for 0:10:16.630 --> 0:10:20.030 their own personal enjoyment. I mean, what they were doing 0:10:20.030 --> 0:10:23.280 in public contradicted their lustful hunger for women. 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:25.002 (foreign language) . 0:10:26.330 --> 0:10:29.720 I hold a degree in sociology, which they view as 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.720 part of philosophy, so it is forbidden. During Daesh time, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.410 I always had to say that I didn't study at 0:10:36.410 --> 0:10:39.569 all if someone asked me about my education. They would 0:10:39.570 --> 0:10:42.390 send somebody to ask about me because some Daesh members 0:10:42.390 --> 0:10:45.950 were my neighbors just opposite my house. It was really 0:10:45.950 --> 0:10:49.140 terrible whenever I left home, returned home, or had a 0:10:49.140 --> 0:10:52.890 gathering of women at home. Many women used to attend 0:10:52.890 --> 0:10:56.230 our literacy courses at my house since Daesh was against 0:10:56.230 --> 0:10:59.770 education. I was asked three times to go to Al- 0:10:59.770 --> 0:11:04.780 Hesba, the Daesh's religious morality police. I was subjected to 0:11:04.780 --> 0:11:07.709 a lot of pressure under Daesh, so I decided to leave. 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:08.002 (foreign language) . 0:11:07.710 --> 0:11:15.200 Fawzia went north with her family, but she didn't stop working 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.510 for change. And again, it was women forced to leave 0:11:18.510 --> 0:11:20.840 their homes, as she had been, that she was trying 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:25.000 to help. 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:25.002 (foreign language) . 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.250 I have always been focused on helping displaced women who 0:11:29.250 --> 0:11:32.610 had to abandon their memories, their dreams, their homes, and 0:11:32.610 --> 0:11:36.110 their lands. A woman needs to feel that she exists 0:11:36.490 --> 0:11:38.530 and proves herself through work. 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:39.002 (foreign language) . 0:11:41.580 --> 0:11:45.002 I had over 400 women from all across (inaudible) . 0:11:46.070 --> 0:11:49.050 When they arrived, their main goal was learning, but they 0:11:49.050 --> 0:11:52.240 also wanted to forget about the tragedies they had experienced 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:56.199 during Daesh. The majority of women were mothers of martyrs, 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.530 or wives of martyrs, and daughters of martyrs. My course 0:12:00.540 --> 0:12:03.689 lasted for about six hours, and these women did not 0:12:03.690 --> 0:12:06.690 want the time to end. They said, " We want to 0:12:06.690 --> 0:12:09.650 stay more, because when we come to learn, this helps 0:12:09.650 --> 0:12:20.740 us forget the worries that have accumulated at the time of Daesh." 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:21.002 (foreign language) . 0:12:21.900 --> 0:12:25.540 We do sewing, women's hairdressing, and first aid, as well 0:12:25.540 --> 0:12:30.040 as teaching. We will establish society by uniting women. Each 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:34.240 group will comprise 20, 30, or 40 women, and when they 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.700 are side by side, they will create an integrated community. 0:12:39.220 --> 0:12:42.210 We have women from all over Syria, and they exchange 0:12:42.210 --> 0:12:46.360 ideas and skills, traditions, and customs. There were things which 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.290 we were unfamiliar with, and when women from Homs, Aleppo, 0:12:50.490 --> 0:12:54.710 Damascus came to us, we exchanged ideas, broaden our knowledge 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:56.000 and create new things. 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:56.002 (foreign language) . 0:12:59.340 --> 0:13:10.590 Naureen, when it comes to countering terrorism, how do you know what the best thing is to do? Where do we 0:13:10.590 --> 0:13:11.240 even start? 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.610 Well, I think that the first stage is to realize that there 0:13:14.610 --> 0:13:17.189 are different layers of people joining, and then there are 0:13:17.190 --> 0:13:20.220 different layers of the organization that they're joining. So some 0:13:20.220 --> 0:13:22.960 people will be joining for, you know, 50 bucks and 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.830 a gun. Some people will be joining because it's cool, 0:13:25.830 --> 0:13:27.730 and their family and friends are doing it, so why 0:13:27.730 --> 0:13:31.100 not? And some people will be joining it because there's 0:13:31.100 --> 0:13:35.340 a hard ideological commitment to the ideology of the group 0:13:35.340 --> 0:13:39.030 or the strategic political objectives. And so I sometimes like 0:13:39.030 --> 0:13:41.040 to think of them as a corporation. You know, there's 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.350 some people who just join it, it's a job, and there's 0:13:43.929 --> 0:13:46.810 a different level of commitment. And that means the motivators 0:13:47.030 --> 0:13:50.119 are also going to be very different. I think one 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.960 big shift we've seen in counter terrorism over the last 0:13:53.059 --> 0:13:57.050 two decades has been a towards including more and more 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:01.069 perspectives in this fight, right? So 20, 30 years ago, when 0:14:01.070 --> 0:14:04.120 we were talking about counter terrorism, it was largely SWAT 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.790 teams and SyOPs and things like that. Now we are 0:14:06.790 --> 0:14:11.990 talking about bringing in educators, media, community groups. The entire 0:14:11.990 --> 0:14:16.520 spectrum of counter terrorism has increased to include these discussions 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.870 because we know that different people are motivated for different 0:14:19.870 --> 0:14:24.060 reasons. Part of the interesting thing, and the challenge is 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.780 that now that you have more individual or small group, 0:14:28.780 --> 0:14:32.850 or quote- unquote, lone wolf terrorism, you no longer have 0:14:32.850 --> 0:14:36.540 to bridge that gap between an individual being motivated and 0:14:36.540 --> 0:14:39.330 then tight command and control from a group that is 0:14:39.330 --> 0:14:43.420 issuing orders and HR forms in triplicate, like Al- Qaeda 0:14:43.420 --> 0:14:47.140 did with references. But I think our first error is 0:14:47.140 --> 0:14:49.670 when we assume that everyone is joining for the same 0:14:49.670 --> 0:14:52.860 reason or that there is, in fact, a single set 0:14:52.860 --> 0:14:54.010 of motivators. 0:14:54.270 --> 0:14:56.591 Margaret, do you want to come in on that? 0:14:56.591 --> 0:14:58.290 I was going to pick up on what Naureen was saying in 0:14:58.290 --> 0:15:02.700 that intelligence professionals, the spies who are trying to understand 0:15:03.250 --> 0:15:07.450 and get inside the Jihadi organizations, they have a deep 0:15:07.450 --> 0:15:11.000 appreciation for the different levels of motivation. Those are psychological 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.620 pressure points in which good interrogators can use to turn 0:15:14.620 --> 0:15:17.870 people and make them double agents, or get information with 0:15:18.180 --> 0:15:20.940 without having to resort to torture and all of those, 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.590 you know, the terrible tactics that were used earlier on 0:15:25.010 --> 0:15:27.630 when we started this epoch that we know as the 0:15:27.630 --> 0:15:30.880 war on terror. Give them a benefit that they've lost, 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:32.770 you know, whether it's seed money to go start a 0:15:32.770 --> 0:15:35.390 shop somewhere else in Iraq, or whether it is the 0:15:35.390 --> 0:15:38.630 promise to get a brother, or an uncle who's been 0:15:38.630 --> 0:15:42.500 in jail without charge for years and years, get them 0:15:42.500 --> 0:15:47.550 free. You know, those sorts of psychological understandings and cultural 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:54.380 appreciation is how, slowly and carefully, local communities can fight terrorism. 0:15:54.850 --> 0:15:55.301 Shiraz, do you want to pick up on that? 0:15:55.301 --> 0:15:59.180 One of the things I think that we haven't talked about 0:15:59.180 --> 0:16:04.940 enough is the two major urban centers that become sort 0:16:04.940 --> 0:16:07.479 of jewels in the crown of the ISIS territory, which 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:12.260 is Raqqa and Mosul, then these are the areas of 0:16:12.260 --> 0:16:18.020 the vulnerable Sunni poor, and, ultimately, securing stability and peace 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.270 in Iraq and Syria requires those Sunnis to have a 0:16:22.270 --> 0:16:27.590 degree of security about their future, about their lives, about 0:16:27.590 --> 0:16:32.520 their physical safety, about their physical security, that expectation that when 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:34.729 you go to bed at night, you'll still be alive 0:16:34.730 --> 0:16:36.850 in the morning, that when your child goes to school, 0:16:36.900 --> 0:16:40.720 they will return. And that's really the case with, I 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:42.970 think, the pragmatic decision that locals had to make with 0:16:42.970 --> 0:16:48.420 ISIS are, " Here's a brutal sectarian, millenarian Sunni regime. Well, 0:16:48.770 --> 0:16:53.080 we understand that better than we understand a Shia militia." 0:16:53.250 --> 0:16:57.220 So people are making pragmatic decisions in the interests of 0:16:57.220 --> 0:16:59.930 their families as locals. And I think that's something we 0:16:59.930 --> 0:17:00.880 have to be sensitive to. 0:17:03.420 --> 0:17:06.740 The work that Fawzia al- Harbi began in Raqqa and then took 0:17:06.740 --> 0:17:10.220 to the north is now making a difference all over Syria. 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:11.002 (foreign language) . 0:17:14.220 --> 0:17:17.100 Each one of my close friends has begun to establish 0:17:17.100 --> 0:17:20.850 a woman's civic complex in their areas. I would love 0:17:20.930 --> 0:17:23.540 all women to do as I do, to be actors 0:17:23.540 --> 0:17:27.001 and influencers in building this community. Now we have an (Elbob) 0:17:27.001 --> 0:17:30.260 , a center called I Am Not Alone, a group 0:17:30.260 --> 0:17:32.580 of women from Homs, who are able to do the 0:17:32.580 --> 0:17:38.240 work that I do, and more. 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:38.002 (foreign language) . 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.850 What we are doing is having a huge impact. Take, 0:17:41.850 --> 0:17:45.450 for example, sewing workshops. We used to import clothes for 0:17:45.450 --> 0:17:50.330 ourselves and our children from different places. Now, however, thanks 0:17:50.330 --> 0:17:54.219 to sewing workshops, we make clothes that our children, husbands, 0:17:54.220 --> 0:18:08.169 and people supporting our projects to wear. 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:08.002 (foreign language) . 0:18:08.170 --> 0:18:09.129 But for Fawzia, this isn't just about economics. 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:09.002 (foreign language) . 0:18:09.690 --> 0:18:12.000 I mean, when we talk about freedom or the concept 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.260 of freedom, or the principle of freedom, freedom for women 0:18:15.260 --> 0:18:17.940 is not the removal of their clothes, or hijabs, or 0:18:17.940 --> 0:18:21.640 the customs and traditions only. We love our Arab customs 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.270 and traditions. Women's freedom is the freedom of their thoughts, 0:18:25.270 --> 0:18:28.859 self expression, and their presence within the society to be 0:18:28.859 --> 0:18:33.930 influential. Women are the nucleus of society, so we are 0:18:33.930 --> 0:18:37.010 starting to show our ideas, raise our children in the 0:18:37.010 --> 0:18:40.869 Islamic way, but in our way. These are my thoughts about Daesh's 0:18:40.869 --> 0:18:42.879 departure and its reflection on us. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:44.002 (foreign language) . 0:18:48.260 --> 0:18:50.629 Fawzia fears the return of the violence, not just because 0:18:50.630 --> 0:18:55.169 of the physical dangers, but because of what it will do to society. But 0:18:55.170 --> 0:18:58.360 she also knows that the fight begins in people's minds. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:00.002 (foreign language) . 0:19:04.380 --> 0:19:07.250 I dread the idea that security will be undermined again, 0:19:08.070 --> 0:19:11.590 that the war plains and the bombing will return. This is 0:19:11.590 --> 0:19:13.899 what I fear the most. The things that the women 0:19:13.900 --> 0:19:17.310 are doing should be highlighted. Women have become the entirety 0:19:17.350 --> 0:19:20.730 of society at present, since the majority of men are 0:19:20.730 --> 0:19:24.690 not at home. They are probably either at war, displaced, 0:19:24.830 --> 0:19:28.350 or have left the country, therefore, women should be highlighted 0:19:28.619 --> 0:19:31.359 so that they are given the support they need, whether 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.480 it's financial, emotional, or mental. When it comes to what 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.001 I can do in my job as director of (inaudible) 0:19:38.001 --> 0:19:42.899 Association, I can fight extremist ideas through awareness raising 0:19:42.900 --> 0:19:47.609 sessions, counseling sessions, (inaudible) , and discussion sessions. 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:48.002 (foreign language) . 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:53.979 I would like to send my message to the Syrian 0:19:53.980 --> 0:19:57.300 society as a whole. People of Syria, we all need 0:19:57.300 --> 0:20:01.150 each other, even simple people who might be thought insignificant 0:20:01.369 --> 0:20:05.140 or lacking impact. Those are exactly the people who are 0:20:05.140 --> 0:20:09.410 most capable of building society. All of us must establish 0:20:09.410 --> 0:20:13.720 one state that comprises all the Syrian young people from 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.770 all religions and sects. We do not want sectarianism in 0:20:17.770 --> 0:20:21.390 Syria at all. All of us are Syrians, with all 0:20:21.390 --> 0:20:25.560 our religions, customs, and traditions, and we must stand up 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:26.280 for each other. 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:26.002 (foreign language) . 0:20:33.220 --> 0:20:36.199 So right now there's a whole breadth of things that 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.920 are being done. So we are fighting against these people 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:43.630 physically, on the ground. We are stopping their funding. We 0:20:43.630 --> 0:20:46.109 are stopping people going to join them. We are trying 0:20:46.109 --> 0:20:49.250 to change the story for people here about what that 0:20:49.250 --> 0:20:52.010 organization is, and we are also trying to change a 0:20:52.010 --> 0:20:55.290 story for people who have been living it, the Iraqis, 0:20:55.340 --> 0:20:58.369 for instance. Okay, so all that's being done, but what 0:20:58.369 --> 0:21:01.300 can we do? What can I do sitting here in the 0:21:01.300 --> 0:21:04.570 UK? How should I be handling this? 0:21:05.100 --> 0:21:10.240 I think there's a lot that individuals can do. It 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:14.130 could simply be that the way you digest and talk 0:21:14.130 --> 0:21:17.000 about news, and the way you talk to your local 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:22.140 politicians, the way you advocate for policies or communications, that's 0:21:22.140 --> 0:21:25.869 something individuals can do. And I think that given the 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:32.040 prevalence we have seen of marginalization and human rights violations, 0:21:32.630 --> 0:21:37.580 being sort of two common elements in radicalization or mobilization 0:21:37.580 --> 0:21:41.780 to violence, I think anything you can do to try 0:21:41.780 --> 0:21:46.010 and address marginalization in your own space, and anything you 0:21:46.010 --> 0:21:50.030 can do to challenge and mitigate human rights violations goes 0:21:50.030 --> 0:21:53.520 a long way to addressing two of the key factors. 0:21:53.700 --> 0:21:56.590 And then also, you know, what's the expression? If you 0:21:56.590 --> 0:22:00.530 see something, say something. That's always important, and I think 0:22:00.530 --> 0:22:03.340 certainly here in New York City, we benefited very much 0:22:03.340 --> 0:22:06.470 from a couple of folks who are willing to spot 0:22:06.980 --> 0:22:11.000 unusual. We would've had a huge bomb in Times Square, 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.920 and there's been numerous other risks that have been stalled. 0:22:14.550 --> 0:22:17.420 So I think that is quite important, but I think 0:22:17.420 --> 0:22:22.369 the marginalization, the human rights violations, the general watchfulness about 0:22:22.460 --> 0:22:25.030 how you can both be helpful and where you see 0:22:25.030 --> 0:22:27.430 a risk, those are things everybody can do. 0:22:27.710 --> 0:22:28.159 Margaret, do you want to come in on that? 0:22:29.859 --> 0:22:34.330 For many Arab speakers in the Middle East, the message 0:22:34.330 --> 0:22:38.500 of Daesh has been completely discredited after four years of 0:22:38.780 --> 0:22:43.830 bloodshed and terror. And the Western world seems to still 0:22:43.830 --> 0:22:50.080 have this sort of spooky fascination with snuff films and 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.619 this kind of violent pornography that Daesh trucks in, and 0:22:53.619 --> 0:22:57.200 when Hollywood puts out its own slasher flicks and that 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:01.410 sells, those are hard images to discount and look away 0:23:01.410 --> 0:23:04.270 from. But I would challenge people to do just that. 0:23:04.270 --> 0:23:07.230 I would say, delete it, and broaden your own horizons. 0:23:07.230 --> 0:23:10.040 Find some other narratives. And there's a lot of different 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:14.100 bridges that we can gap by just remembering that the 0:23:14.100 --> 0:23:19.359 vast majority of Muslims want to just have normal lives, 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.810 like we all know them. Whether you're living in Birmingham 0:23:22.950 --> 0:23:25.859 in the UK, or whether you're living in Baghdad. So 0:23:25.859 --> 0:23:28.840