Kia: Hi, this is Kia. Money scams seem like a part
Kia: of everyday life now and something we must be constantly
Kia: on the lookout for. Scammers are getting smarter and have
Kia: plenty of clever ways to con people out of their
Kia: cash. And it's young people that are most likely to
Kia: be scammed. Welcome to another episode of a Little Bit
Kia: Richer, brought to you by my friends at Legal & General.
Kia: Here to keep us on High Alert is Head of
Kia: Fraud Risk Management at Santander Chris Ainsley. So Chris, aren't
Kia: scams something that happened more to older people?
Chris Ainsle: Scammers don't discriminate. Scams can happen to anyone of any
Chris Ainsle: age. And what we find is that lots of people
Chris Ainsle: think that the scam will never happen to them. They
Chris Ainsle: think they're immune to it, it's not going to happen
Chris Ainsle: to them. Typically, we'll see younger people contacting us in
Chris Ainsle: relation to three main types of scams. The first is
Chris Ainsle: where they've seen something on social media, on a marketplace and
Chris Ainsle: have made a purchase and that's never turned up. They're
Chris Ainsle: often luxury goods, electronics, shoes, jewelry. Sometimes it's pets and
Chris Ainsle: even up to the value of something like a car.
Chris Ainsle: But, there are also other types of scams which aren't
Chris Ainsle: just about you losing your money. They can involve you
Chris Ainsle: becoming part of a crime. So, what we call money
Chris Ainsle: mules, that's where someone ends up essentially getting the money
Chris Ainsle: for their criminals and giving it to them into their own
Chris Ainsle: bank account. And that's really common. We find people being
Chris Ainsle: recruited on social media. There's hashtags that they'll follow and get- rich-
Chris Ainsle: quick type schemes. But also, what we call impersonation scams
Chris Ainsle: are a big problem for younger people. And that's basically
Chris Ainsle: the kind of scam where you might see you've got
Chris Ainsle: a fake text message and you put your details into
Chris Ainsle: it. And then someone will call you and pretend to
Chris Ainsle: be from maybe a bank, maybe the police, and trick you
Chris Ainsle: into moving your money somewhere you wouldn't usually. And younger
Chris Ainsle: people who are more engaged with technology or on social media
Chris Ainsle: are probably more likely to be victims of those kinds
Chris Ainsle: of frauds than older people.
Kia: I completely agree. I've been getting a lot of scam
Kia: text messages and emails and I know that it's a
Kia: big thing. Like you mentioned, social media is where I've
Kia: seen the vast majority. But, I want to touch on
Kia: one that you mentioned is money mules. Now, I am,
Kia: I guess I'm classed as Gen Z, and I'm in
Kia: that audience. And I've seen a lot of people, like you said, this get- rich-
Kia: quick thing, make quick money, just take money into your bank
Kia: account and you can have a cut. But, could you give us
Kia: an example of what a money mule looks like?
Chris Ainsle: Yeah. Sure. If we focus on the get- rich- quick type
Chris Ainsle: of thing first, I think one of those things that
Chris Ainsle: people might be often looking for is a side hustle.
Chris Ainsle: Or something where they're going to make a little bit
Chris Ainsle: more extra money to pay for those extra things that ...
Chris Ainsle: Their bills are costing more, et cetera, et cetera. And
Chris Ainsle: if you're on online, there's two kind of things you
Chris Ainsle: might end up getting involved with. The first might be
Chris Ainsle: some kind of investment scam, where basically you end up
Chris Ainsle: giving someone your money thinking you're going to get a bigger return and
Chris Ainsle: you get nothing. That often involves things like high- return
Chris Ainsle: crypto scams, things like that. And I see those all over social
Chris Ainsle: media. The other one is whether criminals use you and
Chris Ainsle: your bank account. And that is really a problem. So,
Chris Ainsle: they might have posted lots of images of loads of
Chris Ainsle: cash or whatever else. But, essentially what they're trying to
Chris Ainsle: do is use you to hide their crime. So, instead
Chris Ainsle: of getting money paid into the organized criminal's bank accounts,
Chris Ainsle: which they don't have anyway, they'll use a lot of
Chris Ainsle: people to receive smaller amounts of money and you might
Chris Ainsle: be able to give them the cash. You might be asked
Chris Ainsle: to buy things and give it to them. You might
Chris Ainsle: be asked to even give them access to your bank
Chris Ainsle: account, give them your card or give your online banking
Chris Ainsle: details. And what you'll find is you may think you
Chris Ainsle: are working for them, you may think you've got a
Chris Ainsle: job or you may think you're going to get a
Chris Ainsle: cut of whatever's happening. What you end up doing is,
Chris Ainsle: essentially, committing a criminal offense. And being a money mule
Chris Ainsle: is essentially a money laundering offense, which if you look
Chris Ainsle: at it, it's up to 14 years in prison.
Kia: Wow!
Chris Ainsle: And that is irrespective of the value of what ends
Chris Ainsle: up happening. So, every fraud we see, every scam that
Chris Ainsle: involves moving money from one bank account to another has
Chris Ainsle: to have one of those money mules. And therefore the
Chris Ainsle: criminals are always looking for new ones.
Kia: Mm- hmm. It's the criminal offense part. I think that's
Kia: what a lot of people don't realize or don't maybe
Kia: take as seriously. For example, when I was at university,
Kia: I had a few friends and everyone's strapped for cash.
Kia: When you're in university, you don't have much money. But, they were
Kia: approached by some guys that we knew to, like you
Kia: said, use your bank account. If you want to transfer some money over
Kia: and you send it back to us and you keep
Kia: a cut. And I remember we had this conversation and I
Kia: told everyone, " I don't think it's a good idea. I know
Kia: we're all strapped for cash, but I don't think it's a good
Kia: idea." They went ahead with it and it turns out that
Kia: not only did they take in the money, but the
Kia: guys who they gave access to the account to ... The girl? Her parents had
Kia: been saving for her and they stole all her savings
Kia: out of her account, which was just ... It was terrible.
Chris Ainsle: Yeah. And I think that the problem you've got there is the
Chris Ainsle: minimum that's going to happen is you're going to lose access
Chris Ainsle: to your bank account. And actually, in reality, you may lose
Chris Ainsle: access to any kind of bank account or financial service
Chris Ainsle: for maybe as long as six years, if you end
Chris Ainsle: up being reported as a mule. And the most that
Chris Ainsle: can happen really is some kind of criminal offense. But,
Chris Ainsle: you'll also potentially get involved with some horrible serious organized
Chris Ainsle: criminals, who'll be doing other things behind that. And it
Chris Ainsle: might be as simple as you think you're giving away the £1,
Chris Ainsle: 000 that you receive, but where's that money going? What's
Chris Ainsle: it involved with? Once it's entering their criminal hands, it's
Chris Ainsle: probably funding drugs, guns, knives, whatever else is going on,
Chris Ainsle: up to serious levels of criminality, because it's then become
Chris Ainsle: essentially the proceeds of a crime.
Kia: Yes. Absolutely. I'm glad that we're raising awareness of this.
Kia: But, let's move on to something you touched on a little bit
Kia: earlier and it's buying things online. We see all the
Kia: shiny things on social media, it looks great. And like
Kia: you said, you might be wanting to buy trainers, a
Kia: new car. And sometimes you see things and you're like, "
Kia: This is a really good price. I'm going to buy
Kia: this because it's cheaper than what I've seen elsewhere." What
Kia: are some of the warning signs that we should be
Kia: aware of when we're shopping and buying things online?
Chris Ainsle: I think in general, a lot of people, if they're
Chris Ainsle: looking for something online, if they know what they're going
Chris Ainsle: to buy and it's something regular, they might go to an
Chris Ainsle: online site, Amazon, wherever. And that's something they can get
Chris Ainsle: straight away. If they want something that's maybe a bit
Chris Ainsle: more expensive, the second- hand option is so much more
Chris Ainsle: obvious than ever was before. You can go to social
Chris Ainsle: media marketplaces and you can have a look and you
Chris Ainsle: can find a bargain. The problem with that is the
Chris Ainsle: criminals know that as well. And in reality, those marketplaces,
Chris Ainsle: especially the Facebook marketplace, are for local purchases, right? They're
Chris Ainsle: absolutely brilliant and I've bought things off there and I've
Chris Ainsle: gone and picked them up and you can get some
Chris Ainsle: brilliant stuff. The problem is the criminals know that, and what they
Chris Ainsle: will do is, they might take over someone's profile so
Chris Ainsle: it looks like a genuine person. They'll then post a
Chris Ainsle: lot of things on there for sale that people really
Chris Ainsle: want. That might be things that are lower price than
Chris Ainsle: everything else. So, if you search high to low or
Chris Ainsle: whatever else you do when you're looking for these things
Chris Ainsle: online. And what they'll ask you to do is pay
Chris Ainsle: by a bank transfer. So, if you think when you're
Chris Ainsle: shopping on Amazon or wherever else you're putting your card details
Chris Ainsle: in, you've got the protection of, and you can raise that
Chris Ainsle: with your bank. If you end up making a payment
Chris Ainsle: that you're essentially giving them as if you're giving cash,
Chris Ainsle: but you do it from your bank, you've got no idea who you're
Chris Ainsle: paying. You've got no real idea if you're ever going
Chris Ainsle: to receive those goods. You're not dealing with a company
Chris Ainsle: or dealing with another person. And also you can't really
Chris Ainsle: check reviews of a person selling you something on a
Chris Ainsle: marketplace. When we've done research, and we did some very
Chris Ainsle: specific research ourselves into cars that were posted on Facebook,
Chris Ainsle: so we're not talking £ 100 for a phone, we're talking-
Kia: A lot of money.
Chris Ainsle: ... thousands of pounds for cars. And in just 35
Chris Ainsle: minutes, my team found 4, 000 fake car adverts.
Kia: 4, 000?
Chris Ainsle: Yeah,. 4,000. And what we did essentially was, we almost looked
Chris Ainsle: for every single car that you would search for, Volkswagen Golf,
Chris Ainsle: Mini Cooper. All those cars, put them in. We looked
Chris Ainsle: for the cheapest ones and then we looked at the
Chris Ainsle: details. And often the details of the car didn't match.
Chris Ainsle: They said they were electric when they weren't. They're all
Chris Ainsle: massively under priced. If you looked at another site, where
Chris Ainsle: you'd buy cars. Often thousands of pounds under priced, so
Chris Ainsle: they're always the cheapest. And then, when we were interacting
Chris Ainsle: with the poster of the car, what we found is they
Chris Ainsle: often had 10 or 12 cars posted, some of them had hundreds. All
Chris Ainsle: of them had a straightforward, they came straight back to
Chris Ainsle: you on the marketplace giving you an email address to
Chris Ainsle: write to. And almost every single one of them then
Chris Ainsle: told you that car was in storage, it was being
Chris Ainsle: auctioned. If you agreed to pay that price now and
Chris Ainsle: you sent it to them via bank transfer, often to
Chris Ainsle: an account in a business name that was unrelated in
Chris Ainsle: any way to the actual seller, you could get the
Chris Ainsle: car delivered to you and you had a 10- day (inaudible) . So,
Chris Ainsle: there was fake guarantee documents. But, there was 4, 000
Chris Ainsle: of those that we found and almost every car you
Chris Ainsle: could imagine. And they were all posted in the local
Chris Ainsle: area as well.
Kia: That's so mind- blowing. 4, 000 just shows you how
Kia: many fake ads are out there. And something is expensive
Kia: as a car, but which your first car you're upgrading,
Kia: that is a lot of money to put down on anything.
Chris Ainsle: And on those car scams, when we looked at our
Chris Ainsle: own customers that reported to us, about 20% of all
Chris Ainsle: those customers that had reported a car scam of some
Chris Ainsle: description like that to us were under the age of
Chris Ainsle: 25. 20%. So, that's because there was a £ 3, 000 price for a car
Chris Ainsle: that might be 8, 000, 9,000, 10,000. So, they thought they were
Chris Ainsle: getting a really good price. And in reality the advice that
Chris Ainsle: we would give them is, if you haven't sat in
Chris Ainsle: the car, test driven it, don't pay out any money.
Kia: Absolutely. I I don't have an example as big as that,
Kia: but a few months ago I was looking to buy
Kia: a new laptop. I was buying a gaming laptop. And
Kia: I'd gone online and I'd found one. I said, " Okay.
Kia: That's the one I want to get," and I was
Kia: still just double checking. And then my dad said, " Check
Kia: and see how many they're selling," and when we went to
Kia: see how many (inaudible) was selling, there was tons,
Kia: so many. And they're all very similar descriptions. And then,
Kia: that's when we realized actually this doesn't feel like a
Kia: genuine seller, so we had to go somewhere else. But, like I
Kia: said, it's all about the due diligence, because I wouldn't
Kia: have bought that one straight away. But, if I hadn't,
Kia: I'd just seen it and bought it, I could have
Kia: fallen victim to that as well.
Chris Ainsle: Yeah. And I think one of the things is, it's
Chris Ainsle: not just when you're buying things off those sites as
Chris Ainsle: well. If you're selling stuff ... And I've posted ridiculous things
Chris Ainsle: like a phone or some old baby equipment or whatever
Chris Ainsle: else. You will end up being attacked by the scammers
Chris Ainsle: on that as well. So, they'll be asking, " Can you
Chris Ainsle: send it to me? Can you pay for this insurance
Chris Ainsle: product, because I'm going to get someone to come and
Chris Ainsle: collect it." So, it's not just when you are buying things off
Chris Ainsle: there, you've got to be careful. If you're also selling
Chris Ainsle: things, you might end up losing money and also not
Chris Ainsle: selling the thing in the first place, because again, it's
Chris Ainsle: a real common scam that we're seeing, where customers have
Chris Ainsle: been asked to buy things or pay for extra shipping,
Chris Ainsle: or whatever, to send to someone, even for a low-
Chris Ainsle: value item.
Kia: Gosh, there's a lot to be aware of. But, let
Kia: me just circle back to something you touched on earlier,
Kia: and that's impersonation scams. So, what should we be on
Kia: the lookout for if we receive calls or someone gets
Kia: in touch with us pretending to be someone that they're
Kia: actually not?
Chris Ainsle: Yeah. So, I think on impersonation scam, and if we
Chris Ainsle: focus in on what the fraudsters are really trying to
Chris Ainsle: do when they're pretending to be a bank, for example.
Chris Ainsle: So, we see impersonation scams pretending to be mobile phone
Chris Ainsle: companies, the police, the HMRC. But, if we look at
Chris Ainsle: the ones that affect the banks, which is probably the
Chris Ainsle: most common ones, because they want to get into your
Chris Ainsle: bank account, they are usually someone calling you and saying
Chris Ainsle: that your account is somehow compromised. Your account's been defrauded,
Chris Ainsle: someone's trying to get in. They might have sent you
Chris Ainsle: a fake text message. And what I try to explain
Chris Ainsle: to people is usually that's come off the back of
Chris Ainsle: you unwittingly having given away your information to them in
Chris Ainsle: some way. So, what we've found is ... This is through
Chris Ainsle: work we've done with the police and our own research,
Chris Ainsle: is that most of those type of scams where someone's
Chris Ainsle: calling you pretending to be from your bank actually relate
Chris Ainsle: back to another scam that people probably are very much
Chris Ainsle: aware of, which is you getting these fake text messages
Chris Ainsle: saying they're from delivery companies. And I've had like six-
Kia: Same.
Chris Ainsle: ... in the last couple of weeks. They're obviously at
Chris Ainsle: it again, these criminals. And most of those ask you
Chris Ainsle: for some very simple information and they'll literally just ask you, "
Chris Ainsle: Your parcel hasn't been delivered, put in your postcard and
Chris Ainsle: your name. We'll check it." And they'll do a fake
Chris Ainsle: screen. Sometimes they might then ask you for your card
Chris Ainsle: number just to pay for something. And from that information
Chris Ainsle: they know enough about you to give you a call.
Chris Ainsle: So, if you put in your card number, the first few
Chris Ainsle: numbers of that card will tell you who you bank
Chris Ainsle: with. Won't even need to ask your bank account number or
Chris Ainsle: your bank name. They can tell that from that. They've
Chris Ainsle: got your name, your address, your postcode, maybe your date
Chris Ainsle: of birth, whatever else you've given them. And then they'll
Chris Ainsle: call you. So, they don't do anything else. All they
Chris Ainsle: need is that information to then call you and pretend
Chris Ainsle: to be your bank or someone else. And they might
Chris Ainsle: even say, " Oh, have you received any fake text messages?" Or, "
Chris Ainsle: Have you done this as part of that scam?" And
Chris Ainsle: then what will happen is they will do whatever they
Chris Ainsle: can to get your money out of you. And often
Chris Ainsle: that takes the form of them saying, " Right. We need
Chris Ainsle: you to secure your account. Move money out of it.
Chris Ainsle: Make a payment. Change your limit. Do this. Give me
Chris Ainsle: your card number," whatever else. And it'll depend on who
Chris Ainsle: you bank with and how many accounts you've got and
Chris Ainsle: how much money they think you've got. But, in reality,
Chris Ainsle: if someone ever phones you, saying they're from your bank,
Chris Ainsle: your bank won't ask you to move any money. Your
Chris Ainsle: bank won't ask you to log onto your online banking
Chris Ainsle: and check. Your bank certainly won't ask you what your
Chris Ainsle: bank balance is, because they know. They won't be working
Chris Ainsle: with other banks. They won't be working directly with the
Chris Ainsle: police or whatever other story is being spun. And we've
Chris Ainsle: set up a specific phone line for customers to know
Chris Ainsle: they can call their bank just really simply. So, if
Chris Ainsle: you just dial 159 from your phone and you choose
Chris Ainsle: which of your banks is, it'll put you straight through.
Chris Ainsle: So, if you get one of those phone calls, you
Chris Ainsle: can literally put the phone down on whoever it is.
Chris Ainsle: That's always great, because the bank won't mind if it's
Chris Ainsle: real. They'll think you're doing the right thing. And literally
Chris Ainsle: you can dial 159 and choose your bank and go
Chris Ainsle: through to directly and say, " Have you called me? Is
Chris Ainsle: there a problem? Have you sent me a text message?"
Chris Ainsle: So, that's how that scan works. And the thing is,
Chris Ainsle: it doesn't work every time, but they're doing it thousands
Chris Ainsle: of times. They're sending out thousands of those text messages.
Chris Ainsle: Everybody I've ever met has had one of those delivery scams-
Kia: Yes.
Chris Ainsle: ... in the same way as everyone I've ever met has
Chris Ainsle: had one of those, " Hi, Mum," " Hi, Dad," WhatsApp messages
Chris Ainsle: or whatever else. And same idea. Pretend to be someone
Chris Ainsle: else, ask you to make a payment. And if you
Chris Ainsle: are moving money from your account, you really need to
Chris Ainsle: be sure no one's ever going to ask you to
Chris Ainsle: move money. No one's ever going to ask you for
Chris Ainsle: that kind of payment. So, that's the simple advice really
Chris Ainsle: on that one.
Kia: Absolutely. So, it's really important for us to be vigilant.
Kia: So, off the back of that now, how can our
Kia: listeners be careful and ensure that they don't risk losing
Kia: any money? Because we've heard a lot of these scams
Kia: and some of them are very sophisticated as you said,
Kia: and you can't always spot it. But, how can our
Kia: listeners make sure that they're being very careful and not
Kia: risking anything?
Chris Ainsle: If you're talking about buying something, it's always, if it's
Chris Ainsle: too good to be true, it might well be. So,
Chris Ainsle: we've seen lots of different types of scams on those
Chris Ainsle: social media marketplaces. If you're thinking, " That looks really good,"
Chris Ainsle: if you're buying off that kind of place, make sure
Chris Ainsle: it's for local pickup. So, if it's in your local
Chris Ainsle: area, go and have a look at it and make sure
Chris Ainsle: it's what you want. And you will still find the
Chris Ainsle: bargains. We're not saying you can ignore the bargains-
Kia: We are not saying all the bargains are fake.
Chris Ainsle: In no way, and I've done it. So, it's not
Chris Ainsle: that they don't exist. What I would say is on
Chris Ainsle: the other types of frauds that you see, especially those
Chris Ainsle: impersonation scams, they'll try and rush you. They'll try and
Chris Ainsle: make you concerned that there's something going wrong, that your bank
Chris Ainsle: account's being compromised. And let's be honest, if your bank
Chris Ainsle: account has been compromised in some way and your bank
Chris Ainsle: needs to get hold of you, they can message you.
Chris Ainsle: You'll see it in your mobile app, if you've got
Chris Ainsle: that. You'll see it on your online banking. They'll literally
Chris Ainsle: be able to deal with everything for you and they won't
Chris Ainsle: rush you. They won't ask you to make payments or
Chris Ainsle: any of that kind of stuff. And nor will anyone
Chris Ainsle: else. The police aren't going to phone you and do
Chris Ainsle: that, Amazon or whoever else the fraudsters like to impersonate
Chris Ainsle: aren't going to do that sort of thing. And I
Chris Ainsle: think one of the things about buying things, or making
Chris Ainsle: any payments is, if you're making a payment from your
Chris Ainsle: bank account, you should know what it's for. If you
Chris Ainsle: feel that someone's asking you to do that and you
Chris Ainsle: don't know why you'd be doing, it's not right. So,
Chris Ainsle: everything that goes in and out your account, you should
Chris Ainsle: know 100% what it is. And if you don't, you
Chris Ainsle: query it and you query it with your bank, not
Chris Ainsle: the person who just phoned you. But, taking a short
Chris Ainsle: break and thinking before you make any payment is always
Chris Ainsle: what you do. I know people are feeling, especially when
Chris Ainsle: they're being manipulated by the criminal, that's a problem. You need to take
Chris Ainsle: a step back and think, " Is this what's really happening?"
Chris Ainsle: Scammers are everywhere. Always take a think before you respond
Chris Ainsle: to anything.
Kia: Absolutely. So could you give us three top tips for
Kia: our listeners who maybe feel like they may have been
Kia: scammed already?
Chris Ainsle: Yeah. So, I think the first one is you're not
Chris Ainsle: going to be alone. So, if you want to have
Chris Ainsle: a chat with someone else, close family friend, brother, sister,
Chris Ainsle: whoever, just to say, " This has happened to me or
Chris Ainsle: this is going on, what do you think?" Always the
Chris Ainsle: first thing to do, take advice. Speak to someone else,
Chris Ainsle: share your problem. And then, essentially, if there is a
Chris Ainsle: problem and it involves your bank or some money, phone
Chris Ainsle: them straight away and explain what's happened. And actually when
Chris Ainsle: you are going to talk to them, make sure you
Chris Ainsle: tell them absolutely everything as to what's happened. Don't be
Chris Ainsle: worried about not telling them that you did something or
Chris Ainsle: you think what you've done is going to cause a
Chris Ainsle: problem in the future. If you tell them absolutely everything
Chris Ainsle: that's happened, it'll be managed. That means that you can
Chris Ainsle: limit whatever ... They'll give you material, they'll tell you what's
Chris Ainsle: happened, they'll explain what's gone on. Because most people that
Chris Ainsle: have ended up in a situation where a criminal's manipulating
Chris Ainsle: them, or whatever the word we want to use is, they
Chris Ainsle: don't really understand what's going on. They're being pushed through on
Chris Ainsle: a journey and engineered by the fraudster. If you break
Chris Ainsle: that chain, speak to your bank and they'll tell you
Chris Ainsle: what's going on. So, that's probably the best three bits of advice.
Kia: Amazing. Thank you so much, Chris. I like the fact that you
Kia: ended on just being transparent. I think sometimes if you have
Kia: gone through that and you have done something, you can
Kia: feel silly-
Chris Ainsle: (inaudible) And that's for those. Any of those fraud
Chris Ainsle: types, or any (inaudible) impersonator scam or the purchase
Chris Ainsle: or especially in the money mule situation, if people are
Chris Ainsle: clearer about telling you what's gone on, it can be
Chris Ainsle: sorted much quicker.
Kia: Absolutely. Chris, thank you so much for joining us.
Chris Ainsle: No problem at all.
Kia: This episode has been full of knowledge and I think
Kia: hopefully our listeners have learned a lot and are now
Kia: going to be on the lookout for any scams that
Kia: may be coming their way.
Chris Ainsle: Fantastic.
Kia: Next time we are diving into workplace pensions and how
Kia: you can get more out of yours. We'd love it
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