WEBVTT - SO, WHAT DO YOU DO? 0:00:01.930 --> 0:00:05.750 Welcome to Rewirement, with me, Angellica Bell, brought to you 0:00:05.750 --> 0:00:09.959 by Legal & General. I'm talking to amazing people who are 0:00:09.959 --> 0:00:14.839 living inspiring, unique, and colorful retirements. Life begins where the 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.310 day job ends, so I'm on a mission to find 0:00:17.310 --> 0:00:20.099 out how you and I can take inspiration and wisdom 0:00:20.099 --> 0:00:24.270 from real people's retirement stories. It's funny, isn't it, how 0:00:24.270 --> 0:00:26.950 whatever age we are, we have a tendency to assume 0:00:26.950 --> 0:00:29.889 that as we get older, our best years are behind 0:00:29.889 --> 0:00:32.470 us. Now, in this series, we're going to be hearing 0:00:32.470 --> 0:00:35.059 how far from the truth that really is and how 0:00:35.059 --> 0:00:37.890 the things we do right now can make sure our 0:00:37.890 --> 0:00:42.110 retirement years are their best. Whether it's fulfilling dreams, switching 0:00:42.110 --> 0:00:45.640 jobs, or spending more time doing what matters most, I'm 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:47.399 on a mission to find out how you and I 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.680 can take inspiration and wisdom from real people's colorful retirement 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:56.700 stories. Throughout our working lives, many of us are defined 0:00:56.700 --> 0:00:59.940 by what we do. We talk about it at parties 0:00:59.940 --> 0:01:02.830 or when we meet new people. We plan our holidays and schedule 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.069 life around our day job. So when you retire, it can 0:01:07.069 --> 0:01:09.500 leave quite a hole in the identity you present to 0:01:09.500 --> 0:01:12.270 the world, and perhaps also the way you feel about 0:01:12.289 --> 0:01:16.329 yourself. But leaving your job and changing course doesn't have 0:01:16.330 --> 0:01:19.330 to be a shock. With a little planning, thinking, and 0:01:19.330 --> 0:01:22.220 dreaming, you can find a whole new way of life. 0:01:22.750 --> 0:01:25.490 That's why this time, I'm going to be talking to some 0:01:25.490 --> 0:01:29.300 incredible people who followed their passions so they continue to 0:01:29.300 --> 0:01:32.190 have a sense of deep meaning and purpose in their 0:01:32.190 --> 0:01:36.640 retirement pursuits. I'll also be talking to Legal & General's Andrew 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.839 Kail and Helen Cathcart, co- founder of Bolder, the website 0:01:40.839 --> 0:01:43.530 on how to grow older, on things to think about 0:01:43.530 --> 0:01:46.520 to help you achieve more than you dreamed possible in 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:53.300 later life. My first guest is Nigel. After a career, 0:01:53.300 --> 0:01:56.620 as a university academic, he wanted to turn his skills 0:01:56.620 --> 0:01:59.300 and knowledge of health and the food system to make 0:01:59.300 --> 0:02:02.559 a real difference on the ground in his community. That's 0:02:02.559 --> 0:02:05.420 how he came to set up the Lincolnshire Food Partnership. 0:02:06.430 --> 0:02:09.329 Tell me about your transition to retirement. What were you 0:02:09.329 --> 0:02:10.510 thinking at the time? 0:02:10.660 --> 0:02:13.329 I was thinking that I didn't want to sit down 0:02:13.329 --> 0:02:16.730 and do nothing or just play golf. There were lots 0:02:16.730 --> 0:02:20.429 of things that I still wanted to do. In particular, 0:02:20.510 --> 0:02:23.160 I think as with a lot of people, I thought 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.639 I had a set of skills that I've developed over a working career 0:02:26.700 --> 0:02:29.800 that shouldn't really just go to waste. I think a 0:02:29.820 --> 0:02:34.429 lot of people fear retirement because they lose who they 0:02:34.430 --> 0:02:38.880 are as people and worry about having nothing to do. 0:02:39.100 --> 0:02:41.130 And I know a lot of people in my former 0:02:41.130 --> 0:02:45.010 profession who couldn't even face retirement because they were worried 0:02:45.010 --> 0:02:47.269 that they would just ossify and fall to pieces or 0:02:47.269 --> 0:02:53.040 whatever. Yet they were all perfectly intelligent people capable of making that transition. 0:02:53.329 --> 0:02:56.480 So retirement for you is not so much about what 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.929 you can do for yourself, it's what you can do for others, 0:02:58.929 --> 0:03:02.660 and use the experience you've had to broaden this Lincolnshire 0:03:02.929 --> 0:03:05.029 Food Partnership that you were a part of setting up. 0:03:05.220 --> 0:03:07.650 Yeah. I mean, in a sense, you can say it's what you can 0:03:07.970 --> 0:03:11.120 do for others. I think it's always very gratifying to 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.169 be able to help. So it's not really a selfless 0:03:14.169 --> 0:03:17.899 act, it's just actually being to bring about change that 0:03:17.899 --> 0:03:21.100 I've been talking about. And it's really rewarding to see 0:03:21.100 --> 0:03:25.340 things happening that weren't there before, to see people maybe better 0:03:25.340 --> 0:03:29.589 fed than they'd been before, but also it's about developing 0:03:29.590 --> 0:03:33.450 and instilling a sense of community in people. We run 0:03:33.510 --> 0:03:38.210 a cafe in Lincoln as part of the Lincolnshire Food Partnership, which 0:03:38.210 --> 0:03:42.160 uses only waste food to provide meals at a next 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:46.570 to nothing cost. Our strapline is friendship through food, because 0:03:46.570 --> 0:03:50.170 it's actually about the community as much as the feeding 0:03:50.170 --> 0:03:52.700 the belly, if you like. That's important and gratifying. 0:03:53.369 --> 0:03:56.700 Can you explain to me, Nigel, what exactly the Lincolnshire Food Partnership is? 0:03:57.020 --> 0:04:02.300 The Lincolnshire Food Partnership is an organization that brings together... 0:04:02.300 --> 0:04:06.210 We have 10 members of the board from very different 0:04:06.210 --> 0:04:09.850 walks of the food sector. So we've got people from 0:04:09.850 --> 0:04:13.200 food banks there, we've got people from community grant projects, 0:04:13.740 --> 0:04:18.039 we've got the county agricultural chapter, for example. So the church 0:04:18.039 --> 0:04:21.349 is obviously involved. But also we've got the commercial sector. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.859 And in Lincolnshire, we're very fortunate in having a county level co- 0:04:25.860 --> 0:04:28.710 op, and the Lincolnshire co- op is brilliant in both 0:04:28.930 --> 0:04:32.950 its enthusiasm and enjoyment and support at the food pantry. 0:04:33.430 --> 0:04:36.290 So a very broad range of people across all sectors. 0:04:36.719 --> 0:04:39.599 But one thing in common is to make food much 0:04:39.599 --> 0:04:44.020 more community and locally based more than just agriculture. But it's 0:04:44.020 --> 0:04:47.549 about the whole of the food chain from growing through to consumption and 0:04:47.550 --> 0:04:50.770 indeed waste, because we use waste to help feed people. 0:04:50.890 --> 0:04:53.150 Which is still quite astounding in this day and age, 0:04:53.150 --> 0:04:55.990 that there are people who go hungry. 0:04:56.349 --> 0:05:00.359 The food bank demand since COVID has gone up in 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:02.810 the county by an average of just about a thousand 0:05:02.909 --> 0:05:08.909 percent. And at the same time, we throw away about 35% 0:05:08.909 --> 0:05:13.150 of all the food that's produced. In a sense, putting 0:05:13.150 --> 0:05:15.659 it simply, that's one of the big motivations I had for 0:05:15.659 --> 0:05:18.450 getting involved in the first place. We've got loads of food 0:05:18.450 --> 0:05:22.890 here and loads of hungry people there. Put them together. It's almost 0:05:22.890 --> 0:05:23.460 as simple as that. 0:05:24.029 --> 0:05:27.390 No, it is interesting. I want to go back to a point you 0:05:27.390 --> 0:05:31.080 made about what people in retirement age can offer. A 0:05:31.169 --> 0:05:34.900 bit like what you're doing. Do you think people need 0:05:35.020 --> 0:05:39.560 more support when it comes to retirement? Because like you 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.909 said, there are some people who are lost and don't 0:05:41.909 --> 0:05:44.150 have a focus, and that can be really challenging. 0:05:44.719 --> 0:05:49.099 Yeah, I think it's a big deficiency, which I notice 0:05:49.099 --> 0:05:53.240 now. I'm here, of course, in retirement. But as a 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.839 nation, as a culture, and it's not just the UK, 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.750 it's everywhere in the Western world, we spend an awful 0:05:58.750 --> 0:06:02.529 lot of money, rightly, in what we'd call initial education, 0:06:02.609 --> 0:06:06.409 nursery schools, primary schools, secondary schools. And then when they 0:06:06.409 --> 0:06:09.979 hit retirement age, we just can't address and say, " Cheerio." And I 0:06:09.979 --> 0:06:12.450 think there is a huge job to be done in 0:06:12.510 --> 0:06:17.650 educating people into later life. My father died last year, 0:06:18.260 --> 0:06:21.320 having had a longer retirement than he had a working 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.869 life, because he was just over a hundred and he 0:06:23.870 --> 0:06:27.669 retired in his early 50s. That length of his life, he was 0:06:27.669 --> 0:06:31.669 given no guidance about how to conduct that to best 0:06:31.669 --> 0:06:35.810 effect whatsoever. I think we'd all benefit from an education 0:06:36.250 --> 0:06:38.799 that teaches us that retirement is just the next phase 0:06:38.799 --> 0:06:41.820 of life, rather than God's waiting room, if you'd like. 0:06:41.820 --> 0:06:44.979 That there is a lot of life to be had and 0:06:44.979 --> 0:06:47.740 to be used wisely. The great thing about it is 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:50.880 if you're lucky enough to have any kind of pension, 0:06:51.159 --> 0:06:53.809 you can choose what you do without having to worry 0:06:53.810 --> 0:06:57.250 about income quite so much, if at all, and that 0:06:57.250 --> 0:07:01.869 changes the potential, the scope for what you've got hugely. You 0:07:01.870 --> 0:07:04.250 can do things that are immensely fun but that don't 0:07:04.250 --> 0:07:07.469 make any money. Whether it's singing, playing music, helping others, 0:07:07.469 --> 0:07:10.900 whatever. That's a quality of life factor that we just 0:07:10.900 --> 0:07:15.619 don't educate people enough about relative to business, income generation and so forth. 0:07:17.239 --> 0:07:19.530 So in a way, you had your father as an 0:07:19.530 --> 0:07:22.610 example, seeing him retire for a long, long period of 0:07:22.630 --> 0:07:25.369 time. And you also touched about music, because he was a musician. 0:07:26.090 --> 0:07:29.249 You played with him, didn't you? You all love jazz. And 0:07:29.250 --> 0:07:33.070 in your retirement, you've sort of used this time as well 0:07:33.070 --> 0:07:35.810 to explore that and do things that make you happy. 0:07:36.580 --> 0:07:41.809 Access to computer recording is a revolution in terms of 0:07:41.810 --> 0:07:46.850 one's ability to be able to hear music. I write music for my 0:07:46.850 --> 0:07:50.650 own pleasure, certainly not for anyone else's. And since the 0:07:50.650 --> 0:07:52.940 age of 10, when I got two old reel- to- 0:07:52.940 --> 0:07:55.460 reel tape recorders to bounce tracks, a feature that I'd 0:07:55.460 --> 0:07:58.860 been fascinated, that multi- track recording, I can now record 0:07:58.860 --> 0:08:02.380 a full symphony orchestra at absolutely pristine quality with me 0:08:02.380 --> 0:08:05.030 singing in front of it. That's wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. 0:08:06.090 --> 0:08:08.509 Talk about your brother a bit, if you don't mind, because 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.820 he retired and didn't have a sense of purpose, did he? 0:08:12.929 --> 0:08:17.530 No. Unfortunately, he was absolutely lost when he retired. He 0:08:17.530 --> 0:08:20.960 was one of those people who was his job. He 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.570 didn't know how to be anyone else or do anything 0:08:23.570 --> 0:08:28.439 else, and he became very depressed. And unfortunately, he took 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:32.079 his own life about a year after he retired. I 0:08:32.079 --> 0:08:35.370 think largely because his life had come to an end 0:08:35.370 --> 0:08:39.079 in his own perception, and he could only perceive beyond 0:08:39.079 --> 0:08:43.910 that sort of deterioration of getting older. But to me, 0:08:43.949 --> 0:08:48.910 it seemed important to understand why he'd done that, and also 0:08:48.910 --> 0:08:52.329 important to try and educate myself into making sure the 0:08:52.329 --> 0:08:55.780 same didn't happen to me. I think it is that failure, 0:08:56.050 --> 0:08:58.829 that thing that I mentioned earlier about we have to 0:08:58.829 --> 0:09:03.370 educate ourselves into a happier time. Because it's a wonderful time. The 0:09:03.370 --> 0:09:06.479 constraints of this, that, and the other, the mortgage is about to be paid off, 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.599 the kids are independent. We've got a great potential to 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.530 have a fantastic time, and we do need, if it's educating 0:09:12.530 --> 0:09:16.499 ourselves, so be it, but educating each other about it also. It's 0:09:17.030 --> 0:09:19.290 a life- saver literally in the case of my brother's example. 0:09:19.290 --> 0:09:24.300 What advice would you give to other people approaching retirement themselves? 0:09:24.990 --> 0:09:26.559 I think the first thing to do when you retire is have 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.449 a nice long holiday to get all of the stuff 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.880 out of your head that you've had in work a bit, but 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.420 also to recharge your batteries. Everyone gets exhausted from work 0:09:37.420 --> 0:09:41.640 psychologically as well as physically. But then gradually begin to 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.959 think not just what do I want to do, but what skills have I got that 0:09:44.959 --> 0:09:49.100 might be useful to somebody else. How can I use 0:09:49.100 --> 0:09:52.800 those in a slightly different context? And I think above 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.880 all, and this is probably more or less universal, " Who 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:01.259 can I spend my time with in order to make that 0:10:01.260 --> 0:10:06.309 contribution, but also to stop becoming lonely?" I mean, that's 0:10:06.309 --> 0:10:08.160 a bad time to say it during the pandemic when 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.630 we're all in lockdown. But I think communion with other people 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.220 is the quickest route to happiness. And communion with other 0:10:16.220 --> 0:10:19.209 people where you can use your skills to help other 0:10:19.209 --> 0:10:22.870 people, it's a no- brainer in terms of how good 0:10:22.870 --> 0:10:27.089 it makes you feel. And it's not do- gooding. It's 0:10:27.089 --> 0:10:30.569 actually, you're taking the joy out of it rather than just putting 0:10:30.569 --> 0:10:36.089 the joy in it. It's an entirely mutual process, and I would commend doing that to anybody. 0:10:39.910 --> 0:10:43.349 Nigel's made new friends whilst making an impact in his 0:10:43.350 --> 0:10:46.719 local area. He also gets to use his experience in a 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.390 very different way than he did in his academic career. 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.110 The food bank has been used as a model to 0:10:52.110 --> 0:10:56.339 help other organizations build growing schemes and share food around 0:10:56.339 --> 0:10:59.540 other parts of the UK during the pandemic. It looks 0:10:59.540 --> 0:11:04.139 like he's found that golden combination of community, connection, and 0:11:04.140 --> 0:11:08.540 a strong social purpose. My next guest is Rosetta. She 0:11:08.540 --> 0:11:11.910 truly is an incredible woman. And as a lifelong artist 0:11:11.910 --> 0:11:14.589 and learner, she enjoys more of what she loves in 0:11:14.589 --> 0:11:18.630 retirement. She's traveled extensively through her life, and her local 0:11:18.630 --> 0:11:22.510 cabbie in Manchester calls her a citizen of the world. 0:11:23.219 --> 0:11:26.020 Rosetta's husband, Omar, is from a village called Bati in 0:11:26.020 --> 0:11:29.239 Gambia. They have both been volunteer teachers in Gambia, and 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.490 today, the couple still have a close connection with their 0:11:31.490 --> 0:11:35.069 family there. With their shared passion for gender equality and 0:11:35.069 --> 0:11:39.130 education, they now run projects to support their community, normally 0:11:39.130 --> 0:11:42.370 splitting the year between their homes in Gambia and Manchester. 0:11:42.809 --> 0:11:45.589 She spoke to me about her art and the sustainable 0:11:45.589 --> 0:11:49.949 development project she runs with her husband in Gambia. It's 0:11:49.949 --> 0:11:52.700 obvious that art is a strong passion of yours. 0:11:52.949 --> 0:11:56.740 Well, it started when I was drawing on the wallpaper 0:11:56.740 --> 0:11:58.850 when I was two and my mom said I could 0:11:58.850 --> 0:12:03.290 draw faces better than she could. I sold my first 0:12:03.459 --> 0:12:07.920 painting when I was 14. Us artists sometimes have a 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:12.150 very restless mind. We want to push ourselves. We want 0:12:12.150 --> 0:12:16.270 to do something different than the mundane. I always wanted 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:22.960 to combine my arts degree and my psychology honors degree 0:12:23.780 --> 0:12:28.490 to be an art therapist, so I thought it made sense to put 0:12:28.490 --> 0:12:30.600 the two together and do some good in the world, 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:37.849 help people. So I studied after that, a course on 0:12:37.890 --> 0:12:42.329 medicine and the arts at University of Cape Town, Khayelitsha 0:12:42.329 --> 0:12:46.609 Hospital. When I was younger, I did all the pet 0:12:46.610 --> 0:12:50.300 portraits thing to make money. It doesn't make you feel 0:12:50.300 --> 0:12:53.849 amiss. It doesn't make you noticeable. It doesn't give you 0:12:53.849 --> 0:12:59.410 as much satisfaction as creating something totally unique that nobody 0:12:59.410 --> 0:13:00.569 else is doing. 0:13:00.839 --> 0:13:04.079 So are you saying, Rosetta, that an artist never retires? 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:05.959 It's something that you will always do. 0:13:06.420 --> 0:13:09.650 It's in me. I think that I was born that way. 0:13:10.329 --> 0:13:12.700 What has retirement meant for you? 0:13:13.719 --> 0:13:18.099 Freedom to get on with what I love doing best. 0:13:18.300 --> 0:13:22.140 Put my heart and soul into everything that I'm doing. 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.050 No distractions. I don't have to worry about earning a wage. 0:13:27.050 --> 0:13:30.640 I've got a pension, I've got two pensions. I've got 0:13:31.620 --> 0:13:35.090 a husband in Gambia stuck there at the minute. 0:13:35.599 --> 0:13:38.270 We know that an artist's life is precarious. 0:13:38.329 --> 0:13:38.619 Yes. 0:13:38.650 --> 0:13:42.809 So did you think in advance about the future? Because you say 0:13:42.809 --> 0:13:45.309 you've got pensions. Is it something that you've made a 0:13:45.309 --> 0:13:49.760 conscious decision to do to make sure you are secure 0:13:50.150 --> 0:13:51.170 as an older person? 0:13:51.270 --> 0:13:54.569 I have a pension and I have savings. I made sure I'd 0:13:54.569 --> 0:13:57.640 save up. I made sure I was able to afford 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:02.760 to rent a studio while living in another building. And 0:14:03.059 --> 0:14:08.819 I made sure that when I had the studio opened, 0:14:08.819 --> 0:14:13.449 I could tutor people, tutor young people in art, or 0:14:13.449 --> 0:14:17.599 take classes. I've got a Zoom class with some Russian 0:14:17.599 --> 0:14:22.040 ladies. Now, who wouldn't want to do this kind of 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.350 work? It's very, very satisfying, isn't it? I just love 0:14:26.580 --> 0:14:30.160 to be able to share my skills with others. Some 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.870 people can be precious about skills. Me, I want everybody 0:14:33.870 --> 0:14:37.980 to enjoy life, to have fun, to enjoy art, to 0:14:38.210 --> 0:14:41.040 get over the " I can't do it. This isn't good 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:46.300 enough" attitude. I always tell people, "Do what you really enjoy 0:14:46.300 --> 0:14:50.660 doing." And if they want something different to do, there 0:14:50.660 --> 0:14:53.860 are lots of things that they used to do and enjoy 0:14:53.860 --> 0:14:56.350 when they were younger that they could go back to 0:14:56.350 --> 0:14:59.910 doing right now. I think the best thing I ever 0:14:59.910 --> 0:15:05.980 did was set up an occupational pension when I had 0:15:06.370 --> 0:15:11.290 the jobs where I could do that, because you couldn't 0:15:11.290 --> 0:15:18.060 actually survive on a state pension alone. And having the 0:15:18.060 --> 0:15:21.220 luck to be able to have an occupational pension on 0:15:21.220 --> 0:15:24.300 top of it really helps, because I don't have to 0:15:24.300 --> 0:15:28.120 worry about do I heat or do I eat, like 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:33.640 some people talk about. And if I can make a little few 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.450 pennies here and there with my art, that's good. 0:15:38.500 --> 0:15:41.650 Well, another thing you throw yourself into is your sustainable 0:15:41.650 --> 0:15:44.990 development project in Gambia. Talk us through that and why 0:15:44.990 --> 0:15:46.550 it's so important to you. 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:52.510 I'm an eternal student. I never stop studying. Lifelong learning 0:15:52.510 --> 0:15:55.659 is what I promote and tell people. So I studied a 0:15:55.660 --> 0:16:00.060 course called sustainable development for all through Open University FutureLearn. 0:16:01.460 --> 0:16:02.570 When did you do that course? 0:16:02.810 --> 0:16:07.070 Just before retirement, because I knew my retirement was coming 0:16:07.070 --> 0:16:10.150 up and I knew I wanted to do more there. 0:16:10.260 --> 0:16:13.150 And then when I decided, " Look, we've got to get 0:16:13.150 --> 0:16:18.129 more trees out there," because climate action needs to be 0:16:18.130 --> 0:16:22.440 kept up. It has to be sustained. And I said, " 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.850 Look, the only way we will have trees there that 0:16:26.850 --> 0:16:30.220 they don't cut down for firewood, for charcoal, for cooking," 0:16:30.770 --> 0:16:34.890 because they don't have electricity, there's none out there, " What 0:16:34.890 --> 0:16:40.330 do I do? Fruit trees." All assorted fruit trees. Some 0:16:40.330 --> 0:16:43.470 of them are bearing fruit already, and the kids are 0:16:43.470 --> 0:16:47.230 eating them and picking them off it. Mangoes, fresh mangoes. 0:16:47.470 --> 0:16:52.020 How tasty is that? The nurse who we know out 0:16:52.100 --> 0:16:57.760 there is (Muhammed Ceesay) , no relation. He delivers babies in 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.389 the village and he puts a band around the arms 0:17:01.390 --> 0:17:07.240 of the children to check malnutrition. We are happy because 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.830 Muhammed has fed back over the last two years. No 0:17:10.830 --> 0:17:16.470 malnutrition. None at all in the village, because they are eating 0:17:16.470 --> 0:17:20.940 well. I set up a free school dinners scheme so that 0:17:20.940 --> 0:17:25.110 the kids would always have a good dinner at school. 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.810 Set up a school garden for them to grow their 0:17:28.810 --> 0:17:32.270 own veg to put in their... I just supply rice, 0:17:32.430 --> 0:17:37.909 25 kilogram bags, big sacks of rice, and a big 0:17:37.909 --> 0:17:41.840 container of cooking oil, and they supply the rest. And 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.989 the PTA of the school, which serves three villages, does the 0:17:46.990 --> 0:17:50.100 cooking. And if they have anything left, they take it out to 0:17:50.100 --> 0:17:52.030 the elderly people in the village. 0:17:54.530 --> 0:17:57.940 In addition to tackling hunger in the villages, Rosetta and 0:17:57.940 --> 0:18:00.639 her husband have set up a crochet group called The 0:18:00.639 --> 0:18:04.460 Helping Hands. They are now making clothing, blankets, and other 0:18:04.460 --> 0:18:07.830 items. She also donates to the school in Bati to 0:18:07.830 --> 0:18:13.190 make sure children have a consistent education. Rosetta's using her 0:18:13.190 --> 0:18:15.750 pensions and making a little extra here and there with 0:18:15.750 --> 0:18:19.439 her art and painting. She's put thought into her finances, 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.419 which has freed her up to push the boundaries in 0:18:21.419 --> 0:18:23.979 her art and focus her energy on her work in 0:18:23.980 --> 0:18:29.649 Gambia. Two different retirement experiences, both driven by a passion 0:18:29.649 --> 0:18:33.109 for making change and doing good in the world. Even 0:18:33.109 --> 0:18:35.230 if you don't want to do 10 things at once in 0:18:35.230 --> 0:18:37.760 retirement, there are some steps you can take to make 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.939 sure you're primed and ready for the best. I'm joined now 0:18:40.940 --> 0:18:44.679 by Legal & General's Andrew Kail and Helen Cathcart, co- founder 0:18:44.679 --> 0:18:48.190 of Bolder, a website on how to grow older, which 0:18:48.210 --> 0:18:53.759 aims to change perceptions about older people. It's wonderful to 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:55.270 talk to you both, and I'm really interested in what 0:18:55.270 --> 0:18:57.129 you've got to say. So I'm going to start with you, 0:18:57.129 --> 0:19:00.419 Helen, because you've written a book as part of Bolder. 0:19:00.490 --> 0:19:04.300 What drove you to challenge this conversation about aging? 0:19:05.100 --> 0:19:08.409 Me and my friend, Dominique, set it up together. We were 0:19:08.409 --> 0:19:12.490 two girls in our 30s, working in publishing, and we just 0:19:12.490 --> 0:19:16.000 wanted to change the narrative around aging, because the messages 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.289 we were being sent was, already in our 30s, single, 0:19:19.909 --> 0:19:24.300 we were done for. We were old already, and old 0:19:24.300 --> 0:19:27.260 was bad and the only good thing was youth, and 0:19:27.260 --> 0:19:30.340 we were rapidly moving away from that. We felt that 0:19:30.350 --> 0:19:34.899 we wanted to change that story and we realized that 0:19:35.070 --> 0:19:38.639 in our work, we were often sent to overlook older 0:19:38.639 --> 0:19:41.850 people, but we had a real interest in them. And 0:19:41.850 --> 0:19:44.000 when I was photographing, those were the people I was 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:45.800 drawn to and those were the people who have the best 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.439 stories. We just chose to focus on that. 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.510 Was there anything personal about this for you? Because most 0:19:51.510 --> 0:19:54.119 people in their 30s, they're having the time of their lives and 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.629 retiring is years ahead of them and it's not at 0:19:57.629 --> 0:19:58.510 the forefront of their mind. 0:19:58.510 --> 0:20:03.720 Yeah. I think we were different in that respect. It 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:09.540 was personal. We were aware that society was ageist. Antiaging 0:20:09.540 --> 0:20:14.029 creams, everything. It was that aging was bad. We just 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.389 wanted to find some positives. By interviewing these people, we 0:20:18.389 --> 0:20:21.129 did. And then it became addictive because they were just 0:20:21.570 --> 0:20:25.340 defying everything that we had been sort of brainwashed by 0:20:25.340 --> 0:20:29.780 in society, and we just find uplifting stories. Yeah. 0:20:30.350 --> 0:20:32.510 Andrew, you're nodding your head there. Is this something that 0:20:32.510 --> 0:20:33.100 resonates with you? 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.439 It does hugely. I mean, it's interesting. The World Health Organization 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:40.850 have just published research about officially classifying ageism as a 0:20:40.850 --> 0:20:44.749 problem they want to deal with. So I think there is an ageist 0:20:44.750 --> 0:20:46.919 bias in society. I think particularly when it comes to 0:20:46.919 --> 0:20:50.139 recruiting workers. It's come out of the COVID research that people need 0:20:50.250 --> 0:20:52.960 to find jobs post the crisis, with the high levels 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.480 of unemployment and society can be ageist. So I think it 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.389 does resonate. I think there is a huge contribution that 0:20:58.389 --> 0:21:00.090 we can make. I say that as someone that's sort 0:21:00.090 --> 0:21:03.359 of getting older myself and not in my 30s. So I could perhaps 0:21:03.419 --> 0:21:06.980 relate to it more. But yeah, I think it is 0:21:06.980 --> 0:21:10.199 an issue, but it's an important one. 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.500 Well, the idea of settling down in your 60s and 70s with a 0:21:13.500 --> 0:21:15.919 pipe and slippers, it doesn't really ring true for the modern 0:21:15.919 --> 0:21:16.619 retiree, does it? 0:21:16.990 --> 0:21:19.840 Absolutely not. I think that the whole... There's so many of the old 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.330 cliches of retirement that are disappearing now. I mean, the 0:21:23.330 --> 0:21:25.450 simple fact of it is people are living longer. That's 0:21:25.450 --> 0:21:29.100 a really good thing. There've been fantastic improvements in healthcare, so 0:21:29.470 --> 0:21:33.590 retirement in the 60s and 70s, people are now looking at potentially decades in front 0:21:33.590 --> 0:21:36.010 of them, which is a very different landscape to what 0:21:36.010 --> 0:21:39.129 it was sort of some years ago. So people are 0:21:39.129 --> 0:21:42.659 working longer. They're not just stopping work age 65, never 0:21:42.659 --> 0:21:44.939 to work again, they're moving to part- time or semi- 0:21:44.940 --> 0:21:47.609 retirement jobs. And then I think things like technology and 0:21:47.609 --> 0:21:50.919 travel, like they open up society for everyone, it's no 0:21:50.919 --> 0:21:53.350 different for retirees, and they've got lots more leisure time. 0:21:53.350 --> 0:21:56.840 So I think it is changing the way that people 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:59.330 live their lives. And we heard from Nigel and Rosetta 0:21:59.330 --> 0:22:02.449 earlier. I mean, it's massively changed what they would have 0:22:02.450 --> 0:22:04.929 done from their counterparts a few generations ago. 0:22:05.310 --> 0:22:10.109 So what are some of the common misconceptions that exist around older people in their work, in 0:22:10.109 --> 0:22:10.949 your opinion, Helen? 0:22:10.950 --> 0:22:15.300 I think the main was when we started up Bolder, we were like, " 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:20.219 Well, what's our cutoff point for old? What age are 0:22:20.220 --> 0:22:24.659 we looking at here?" We decided on 70, randomly. And 0:22:24.659 --> 0:22:26.899 then the more and more we did Bolder, it was 0:22:26.899 --> 0:22:30.240 like 70 is actually really young. The 70- year- olds 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.500 are too young for Bolder. And I think the traditional 0:22:33.500 --> 0:22:36.659 view is that you work hard, you stop, and then 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.950 you die when you retire. And the Bolders taught us 0:22:39.950 --> 0:22:43.389 that you've got all this life stretching ahead of you, even from 0:22:43.389 --> 0:22:47.129 70. They basically were changing the meaning of what it 0:22:47.129 --> 0:22:50.159 was to retire. You can retire from your job, but 0:22:50.159 --> 0:22:52.810 you don't have to retire from life. That's the attitude 0:22:53.090 --> 0:22:55.700 that they had. They were just choosing to follow their 0:22:55.700 --> 0:22:59.330 passions. Their job was often their passion. And as Andrew 0:22:59.330 --> 0:23:01.899 said, they were continuing that, and that was keeping them going, and 0:23:01.899 --> 0:23:05.540 that'd be continuing part- time. Or using skills from that 0:23:05.540 --> 0:23:09.619 job to then go on and do other passions, but 0:23:09.619 --> 0:23:13.179 not just stopping. I think that was the key. The 0:23:13.179 --> 0:23:15.479 view is that success is to be achieved by a 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:18.910 certain age. That it has a deadline. But it doesn't, 0:23:19.310 --> 0:23:21.929 and new goals can be set at any age. That 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:25.340 was a key thing with our Bolder interviewees. One reason 0:23:25.340 --> 0:23:28.939 we did start this was to help our future selves, 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:33.970 because we're all getting older, to change the narrative around 0:23:33.970 --> 0:23:37.270 it now while we can and can be listened to 0:23:37.340 --> 0:23:41.189 and have that forum was something that we really thought of. 0:23:41.500 --> 0:23:44.700 Yeah, because I suppose a lot of people are scared of retiring. 0:23:44.700 --> 0:23:47.969 That word especially. It's meant to be exciting. It's when you 0:23:47.970 --> 0:23:49.590 get your life back. But for a lot of people, 0:23:49.590 --> 0:23:52.020 it's said in a negative way. So are you about 0:23:52.020 --> 0:23:55.760 trying to turn that into a positive embrace moment in 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:56.310 your life? 0:23:56.310 --> 0:24:00.002