Angellica Bell: Welcome to Rewirement, with me, Angellica Bell, brought to you
Angellica Bell: by Legal & General. I'm talking to amazing people who are
Angellica Bell: living inspiring, unique, and colorful retirements. Life begins where the
Angellica Bell: day job ends, so I'm on a mission to find
Angellica Bell: out how you and I can take inspiration and wisdom
Angellica Bell: from real people's retirement stories. It's funny, isn't it, how
Angellica Bell: whatever age we are, we have a tendency to assume
Angellica Bell: that as we get older, our best years are behind
Angellica Bell: us. Now, in this series, we're going to be hearing
Angellica Bell: how far from the truth that really is and how
Angellica Bell: the things we do right now can make sure our
Angellica Bell: retirement years are their best. Whether it's fulfilling dreams, switching
Angellica Bell: jobs, or spending more time doing what matters most, I'm
Angellica Bell: on a mission to find out how you and I
Angellica Bell: can take inspiration and wisdom from real people's colorful retirement
Angellica Bell: stories. Throughout our working lives, many of us are defined
Angellica Bell: by what we do. We talk about it at parties
Angellica Bell: or when we meet new people. We plan our holidays and schedule
Angellica Bell: life around our day job. So when you retire, it can
Angellica Bell: leave quite a hole in the identity you present to
Angellica Bell: the world, and perhaps also the way you feel about
Angellica Bell: yourself. But leaving your job and changing course doesn't have
Angellica Bell: to be a shock. With a little planning, thinking, and
Angellica Bell: dreaming, you can find a whole new way of life.
Angellica Bell: That's why this time, I'm going to be talking to some
Angellica Bell: incredible people who followed their passions so they continue to
Angellica Bell: have a sense of deep meaning and purpose in their
Angellica Bell: retirement pursuits. I'll also be talking to Legal & General's Andrew
Angellica Bell: Kail and Helen Cathcart, co- founder of Bolder, the website
Angellica Bell: on how to grow older, on things to think about
Angellica Bell: to help you achieve more than you dreamed possible in
Angellica Bell: later life. My first guest is Nigel. After a career,
Angellica Bell: as a university academic, he wanted to turn his skills
Angellica Bell: and knowledge of health and the food system to make
Angellica Bell: a real difference on the ground in his community. That's
Angellica Bell: how he came to set up the Lincolnshire Food Partnership.
Angellica Bell: Tell me about your transition to retirement. What were you
Angellica Bell: thinking at the time?
Nigel Curry: I was thinking that I didn't want to sit down
Nigel Curry: and do nothing or just play golf. There were lots
Nigel Curry: of things that I still wanted to do. In particular,
Nigel Curry: I think as with a lot of people, I thought
Nigel Curry: I had a set of skills that I've developed over a working career
Nigel Curry: that shouldn't really just go to waste. I think a
Nigel Curry: lot of people fear retirement because they lose who they
Nigel Curry: are as people and worry about having nothing to do.
Nigel Curry: And I know a lot of people in my former
Nigel Curry: profession who couldn't even face retirement because they were worried
Nigel Curry: that they would just ossify and fall to pieces or
Nigel Curry: whatever. Yet they were all perfectly intelligent people capable of making that transition.
Angellica Bell: So retirement for you is not so much about what
Angellica Bell: you can do for yourself, it's what you can do for others,
Angellica Bell: and use the experience you've had to broaden this Lincolnshire
Angellica Bell: Food Partnership that you were a part of setting up.
Nigel Curry: Yeah. I mean, in a sense, you can say it's what you can
Nigel Curry: do for others. I think it's always very gratifying to
Nigel Curry: be able to help. So it's not really a selfless
Nigel Curry: act, it's just actually being to bring about change that
Nigel Curry: I've been talking about. And it's really rewarding to see
Nigel Curry: things happening that weren't there before, to see people maybe better
Nigel Curry: fed than they'd been before, but also it's about developing
Nigel Curry: and instilling a sense of community in people. We run
Nigel Curry: a cafe in Lincoln as part of the Lincolnshire Food Partnership, which
Nigel Curry: uses only waste food to provide meals at a next
Nigel Curry: to nothing cost. Our strapline is friendship through food, because
Nigel Curry: it's actually about the community as much as the feeding
Nigel Curry: the belly, if you like. That's important and gratifying.
Angellica Bell: Can you explain to me, Nigel, what exactly the Lincolnshire Food Partnership is?
Nigel Curry: The Lincolnshire Food Partnership is an organization that brings together...
Nigel Curry: We have 10 members of the board from very different
Nigel Curry: walks of the food sector. So we've got people from
Nigel Curry: food banks there, we've got people from community grant projects,
Nigel Curry: we've got the county agricultural chapter, for example. So the church
Nigel Curry: is obviously involved. But also we've got the commercial sector.
Nigel Curry: And in Lincolnshire, we're very fortunate in having a county level co-
Nigel Curry: op, and the Lincolnshire co- op is brilliant in both
Nigel Curry: its enthusiasm and enjoyment and support at the food pantry.
Nigel Curry: So a very broad range of people across all sectors.
Nigel Curry: But one thing in common is to make food much
Nigel Curry: more community and locally based more than just agriculture. But it's
Nigel Curry: about the whole of the food chain from growing through to consumption and
Nigel Curry: indeed waste, because we use waste to help feed people.
Angellica Bell: Which is still quite astounding in this day and age,
Angellica Bell: that there are people who go hungry.
Nigel Curry: The food bank demand since COVID has gone up in
Nigel Curry: the county by an average of just about a thousand
Nigel Curry: percent. And at the same time, we throw away about 35%
Nigel Curry: of all the food that's produced. In a sense, putting
Nigel Curry: it simply, that's one of the big motivations I had for
Nigel Curry: getting involved in the first place. We've got loads of food
Nigel Curry: here and loads of hungry people there. Put them together. It's almost
Nigel Curry: as simple as that.
Angellica Bell: No, it is interesting. I want to go back to a point you
Angellica Bell: made about what people in retirement age can offer. A
Angellica Bell: bit like what you're doing. Do you think people need
Angellica Bell: more support when it comes to retirement? Because like you
Angellica Bell: said, there are some people who are lost and don't
Angellica Bell: have a focus, and that can be really challenging.
Nigel Curry: Yeah, I think it's a big deficiency, which I notice
Nigel Curry: now. I'm here, of course, in retirement. But as a
Nigel Curry: nation, as a culture, and it's not just the UK,
Nigel Curry: it's everywhere in the Western world, we spend an awful
Nigel Curry: lot of money, rightly, in what we'd call initial education,
Nigel Curry: nursery schools, primary schools, secondary schools. And then when they
Nigel Curry: hit retirement age, we just can't address and say, " Cheerio." And I
Nigel Curry: think there is a huge job to be done in
Nigel Curry: educating people into later life. My father died last year,
Nigel Curry: having had a longer retirement than he had a working
Nigel Curry: life, because he was just over a hundred and he
Nigel Curry: retired in his early 50s. That length of his life, he was
Nigel Curry: given no guidance about how to conduct that to best
Nigel Curry: effect whatsoever. I think we'd all benefit from an education
Nigel Curry: that teaches us that retirement is just the next phase
Nigel Curry: of life, rather than God's waiting room, if you'd like.
Nigel Curry: That there is a lot of life to be had and
Nigel Curry: to be used wisely. The great thing about it is
Nigel Curry: if you're lucky enough to have any kind of pension,
Nigel Curry: you can choose what you do without having to worry
Nigel Curry: about income quite so much, if at all, and that
Nigel Curry: changes the potential, the scope for what you've got hugely. You
Nigel Curry: can do things that are immensely fun but that don't
Nigel Curry: make any money. Whether it's singing, playing music, helping others,
Nigel Curry: whatever. That's a quality of life factor that we just
Nigel Curry: don't educate people enough about relative to business, income generation and so forth.
Angellica Bell: So in a way, you had your father as an
Angellica Bell: example, seeing him retire for a long, long period of
Angellica Bell: time. And you also touched about music, because he was a musician.
Angellica Bell: You played with him, didn't you? You all love jazz. And
Angellica Bell: in your retirement, you've sort of used this time as well
Angellica Bell: to explore that and do things that make you happy.
Nigel Curry: Access to computer recording is a revolution in terms of
Nigel Curry: one's ability to be able to hear music. I write music for my
Nigel Curry: own pleasure, certainly not for anyone else's. And since the
Nigel Curry: age of 10, when I got two old reel- to-
Nigel Curry: reel tape recorders to bounce tracks, a feature that I'd
Nigel Curry: been fascinated, that multi- track recording, I can now record
Nigel Curry: a full symphony orchestra at absolutely pristine quality with me
Nigel Curry: singing in front of it. That's wonderful. Absolutely wonderful.
Angellica Bell: Talk about your brother a bit, if you don't mind, because
Angellica Bell: he retired and didn't have a sense of purpose, did he?
Nigel Curry: No. Unfortunately, he was absolutely lost when he retired. He
Nigel Curry: was one of those people who was his job. He
Nigel Curry: didn't know how to be anyone else or do anything
Nigel Curry: else, and he became very depressed. And unfortunately, he took
Nigel Curry: his own life about a year after he retired. I
Nigel Curry: think largely because his life had come to an end
Nigel Curry: in his own perception, and he could only perceive beyond
Nigel Curry: that sort of deterioration of getting older. But to me,
Nigel Curry: it seemed important to understand why he'd done that, and also
Nigel Curry: important to try and educate myself into making sure the
Nigel Curry: same didn't happen to me. I think it is that failure,
Nigel Curry: that thing that I mentioned earlier about we have to
Nigel Curry: educate ourselves into a happier time. Because it's a wonderful time. The
Nigel Curry: constraints of this, that, and the other, the mortgage is about to be paid off,
Nigel Curry: the kids are independent. We've got a great potential to
Nigel Curry: have a fantastic time, and we do need, if it's educating
Nigel Curry: ourselves, so be it, but educating each other about it also. It's
Nigel Curry: a life- saver literally in the case of my brother's example.
Angellica Bell: What advice would you give to other people approaching retirement themselves?
Nigel Curry: I think the first thing to do when you retire is have
Nigel Curry: a nice long holiday to get all of the stuff
Nigel Curry: out of your head that you've had in work a bit, but
Nigel Curry: also to recharge your batteries. Everyone gets exhausted from work
Nigel Curry: psychologically as well as physically. But then gradually begin to
Nigel Curry: think not just what do I want to do, but what skills have I got that
Nigel Curry: might be useful to somebody else. How can I use
Nigel Curry: those in a slightly different context? And I think above
Nigel Curry: all, and this is probably more or less universal, " Who
Nigel Curry: can I spend my time with in order to make that
Nigel Curry: contribution, but also to stop becoming lonely?" I mean, that's
Nigel Curry: a bad time to say it during the pandemic when
Nigel Curry: we're all in lockdown. But I think communion with other people
Nigel Curry: is the quickest route to happiness. And communion with other
Nigel Curry: people where you can use your skills to help other
Nigel Curry: people, it's a no- brainer in terms of how good
Nigel Curry: it makes you feel. And it's not do- gooding. It's
Nigel Curry: actually, you're taking the joy out of it rather than just putting
Nigel Curry: the joy in it. It's an entirely mutual process, and I would commend doing that to anybody.
Angellica Bell: Nigel's made new friends whilst making an impact in his
Angellica Bell: local area. He also gets to use his experience in a
Angellica Bell: very different way than he did in his academic career.
Angellica Bell: The food bank has been used as a model to
Angellica Bell: help other organizations build growing schemes and share food around
Angellica Bell: other parts of the UK during the pandemic. It looks
Angellica Bell: like he's found that golden combination of community, connection, and
Angellica Bell: a strong social purpose. My next guest is Rosetta. She
Angellica Bell: truly is an incredible woman. And as a lifelong artist
Angellica Bell: and learner, she enjoys more of what she loves in
Angellica Bell: retirement. She's traveled extensively through her life, and her local
Angellica Bell: cabbie in Manchester calls her a citizen of the world.
Angellica Bell: Rosetta's husband, Omar, is from a village called Bati in
Angellica Bell: Gambia. They have both been volunteer teachers in Gambia, and
Angellica Bell: today, the couple still have a close connection with their
Angellica Bell: family there. With their shared passion for gender equality and
Angellica Bell: education, they now run projects to support their community, normally
Angellica Bell: splitting the year between their homes in Gambia and Manchester.
Angellica Bell: She spoke to me about her art and the sustainable
Angellica Bell: development project she runs with her husband in Gambia. It's
Angellica Bell: obvious that art is a strong passion of yours.
Rosetta: Well, it started when I was drawing on the wallpaper
Rosetta: when I was two and my mom said I could
Rosetta: draw faces better than she could. I sold my first
Rosetta: painting when I was 14. Us artists sometimes have a
Rosetta: very restless mind. We want to push ourselves. We want
Rosetta: to do something different than the mundane. I always wanted
Rosetta: to combine my arts degree and my psychology honors degree
Rosetta: to be an art therapist, so I thought it made sense to put
Rosetta: the two together and do some good in the world,
Rosetta: help people. So I studied after that, a course on
Rosetta: medicine and the arts at University of Cape Town, Khayelitsha
Rosetta: Hospital. When I was younger, I did all the pet
Rosetta: portraits thing to make money. It doesn't make you feel
Rosetta: amiss. It doesn't make you noticeable. It doesn't give you
Rosetta: as much satisfaction as creating something totally unique that nobody
Rosetta: else is doing.
Angellica Bell: So are you saying, Rosetta, that an artist never retires?
Angellica Bell: It's something that you will always do.
Rosetta: It's in me. I think that I was born that way.
Angellica Bell: What has retirement meant for you?
Rosetta: Freedom to get on with what I love doing best.
Rosetta: Put my heart and soul into everything that I'm doing.
Rosetta: No distractions. I don't have to worry about earning a wage.
Rosetta: I've got a pension, I've got two pensions. I've got
Rosetta: a husband in Gambia stuck there at the minute.
Angellica Bell: We know that an artist's life is precarious.
Rosetta: Yes.
Angellica Bell: So did you think in advance about the future? Because you say
Angellica Bell: you've got pensions. Is it something that you've made a
Angellica Bell: conscious decision to do to make sure you are secure
Angellica Bell: as an older person?
Rosetta: I have a pension and I have savings. I made sure I'd
Rosetta: save up. I made sure I was able to afford
Rosetta: to rent a studio while living in another building. And
Rosetta: I made sure that when I had the studio opened,
Rosetta: I could tutor people, tutor young people in art, or
Rosetta: take classes. I've got a Zoom class with some Russian
Rosetta: ladies. Now, who wouldn't want to do this kind of
Rosetta: work? It's very, very satisfying, isn't it? I just love
Rosetta: to be able to share my skills with others. Some
Rosetta: people can be precious about skills. Me, I want everybody
Rosetta: to enjoy life, to have fun, to enjoy art, to
Rosetta: get over the " I can't do it. This isn't good
Rosetta: enough" attitude. I always tell people, "Do what you really enjoy
Rosetta: doing." And if they want something different to do, there
Rosetta: are lots of things that they used to do and enjoy
Rosetta: when they were younger that they could go back to
Rosetta: doing right now. I think the best thing I ever
Rosetta: did was set up an occupational pension when I had
Rosetta: the jobs where I could do that, because you couldn't
Rosetta: actually survive on a state pension alone. And having the
Rosetta: luck to be able to have an occupational pension on
Rosetta: top of it really helps, because I don't have to
Rosetta: worry about do I heat or do I eat, like
Rosetta: some people talk about. And if I can make a little few
Rosetta: pennies here and there with my art, that's good.
Angellica Bell: Well, another thing you throw yourself into is your sustainable
Angellica Bell: development project in Gambia. Talk us through that and why
Angellica Bell: it's so important to you.
Rosetta: I'm an eternal student. I never stop studying. Lifelong learning
Rosetta: is what I promote and tell people. So I studied a
Rosetta: course called sustainable development for all through Open University FutureLearn.
Angellica Bell: When did you do that course?
Rosetta: Just before retirement, because I knew my retirement was coming
Rosetta: up and I knew I wanted to do more there.
Rosetta: And then when I decided, " Look, we've got to get
Rosetta: more trees out there," because climate action needs to be
Rosetta: kept up. It has to be sustained. And I said, "
Rosetta: Look, the only way we will have trees there that
Rosetta: they don't cut down for firewood, for charcoal, for cooking,"
Rosetta: because they don't have electricity, there's none out there, " What
Rosetta: do I do? Fruit trees." All assorted fruit trees. Some
Rosetta: of them are bearing fruit already, and the kids are
Rosetta: eating them and picking them off it. Mangoes, fresh mangoes.
Rosetta: How tasty is that? The nurse who we know out
Rosetta: there is (Muhammed Ceesay) , no relation. He delivers babies in
Rosetta: the village and he puts a band around the arms
Rosetta: of the children to check malnutrition. We are happy because
Rosetta: Muhammed has fed back over the last two years. No
Rosetta: malnutrition. None at all in the village, because they are eating
Rosetta: well. I set up a free school dinners scheme so that
Rosetta: the kids would always have a good dinner at school.
Rosetta: Set up a school garden for them to grow their
Rosetta: own veg to put in their... I just supply rice,
Rosetta: 25 kilogram bags, big sacks of rice, and a big
Rosetta: container of cooking oil, and they supply the rest. And
Rosetta: the PTA of the school, which serves three villages, does the
Rosetta: cooking. And if they have anything left, they take it out to
Rosetta: the elderly people in the village.
Angellica Bell: In addition to tackling hunger in the villages, Rosetta and
Angellica Bell: her husband have set up a crochet group called The
Angellica Bell: Helping Hands. They are now making clothing, blankets, and other
Angellica Bell: items. She also donates to the school in Bati to
Angellica Bell: make sure children have a consistent education. Rosetta's using her
Angellica Bell: pensions and making a little extra here and there with
Angellica Bell: her art and painting. She's put thought into her finances,
Angellica Bell: which has freed her up to push the boundaries in
Angellica Bell: her art and focus her energy on her work in
Angellica Bell: Gambia. Two different retirement experiences, both driven by a passion
Angellica Bell: for making change and doing good in the world. Even
Angellica Bell: if you don't want to do 10 things at once in
Angellica Bell: retirement, there are some steps you can take to make
Angellica Bell: sure you're primed and ready for the best. I'm joined now
Angellica Bell: by Legal & General's Andrew Kail and Helen Cathcart, co- founder
Angellica Bell: of Bolder, a website on how to grow older, which
Angellica Bell: aims to change perceptions about older people. It's wonderful to
Angellica Bell: talk to you both, and I'm really interested in what
Angellica Bell: you've got to say. So I'm going to start with you,
Angellica Bell: Helen, because you've written a book as part of Bolder.
Angellica Bell: What drove you to challenge this conversation about aging?
Helen Cathcart: Me and my friend, Dominique, set it up together. We were
Helen Cathcart: two girls in our 30s, working in publishing, and we just
Helen Cathcart: wanted to change the narrative around aging, because the messages
Helen Cathcart: we were being sent was, already in our 30s, single,
Helen Cathcart: we were done for. We were old already, and old
Helen Cathcart: was bad and the only good thing was youth, and
Helen Cathcart: we were rapidly moving away from that. We felt that
Helen Cathcart: we wanted to change that story and we realized that
Helen Cathcart: in our work, we were often sent to overlook older
Helen Cathcart: people, but we had a real interest in them. And
Helen Cathcart: when I was photographing, those were the people I was
Helen Cathcart: drawn to and those were the people who have the best
Helen Cathcart: stories. We just chose to focus on that.
Angellica Bell: Was there anything personal about this for you? Because most
Angellica Bell: people in their 30s, they're having the time of their lives and
Angellica Bell: retiring is years ahead of them and it's not at
Angellica Bell: the forefront of their mind.
Helen Cathcart: Yeah. I think we were different in that respect. It
Helen Cathcart: was personal. We were aware that society was ageist. Antiaging
Helen Cathcart: creams, everything. It was that aging was bad. We just
Helen Cathcart: wanted to find some positives. By interviewing these people, we
Helen Cathcart: did. And then it became addictive because they were just
Helen Cathcart: defying everything that we had been sort of brainwashed by
Helen Cathcart: in society, and we just find uplifting stories. Yeah.
Angellica Bell: Andrew, you're nodding your head there. Is this something that
Angellica Bell: resonates with you?
Andrew Kail: It does hugely. I mean, it's interesting. The World Health Organization
Andrew Kail: have just published research about officially classifying ageism as a
Andrew Kail: problem they want to deal with. So I think there is an ageist
Andrew Kail: bias in society. I think particularly when it comes to
Andrew Kail: recruiting workers. It's come out of the COVID research that people need
Andrew Kail: to find jobs post the crisis, with the high levels
Andrew Kail: of unemployment and society can be ageist. So I think it
Andrew Kail: does resonate. I think there is a huge contribution that
Andrew Kail: we can make. I say that as someone that's sort
Andrew Kail: of getting older myself and not in my 30s. So I could perhaps
Andrew Kail: relate to it more. But yeah, I think it is
Andrew Kail: an issue, but it's an important one.
Angellica Bell: Well, the idea of settling down in your 60s and 70s with a
Angellica Bell: pipe and slippers, it doesn't really ring true for the modern
Angellica Bell: retiree, does it?
Andrew Kail: Absolutely not. I think that the whole... There's so many of the old
Andrew Kail: cliches of retirement that are disappearing now. I mean, the
Andrew Kail: simple fact of it is people are living longer. That's
Andrew Kail: a really good thing. There've been fantastic improvements in healthcare, so
Andrew Kail: retirement in the 60s and 70s, people are now looking at potentially decades in front
Andrew Kail: of them, which is a very different landscape to what
Andrew Kail: it was sort of some years ago. So people are
Andrew Kail: working longer. They're not just stopping work age 65, never
Andrew Kail: to work again, they're moving to part- time or semi-
Andrew Kail: retirement jobs. And then I think things like technology and
Andrew Kail: travel, like they open up society for everyone, it's no
Andrew Kail: different for retirees, and they've got lots more leisure time.
Andrew Kail: So I think it is changing the way that people
Andrew Kail: live their lives. And we heard from Nigel and Rosetta
Andrew Kail: earlier. I mean, it's massively changed what they would have
Andrew Kail: done from their counterparts a few generations ago.
Angellica Bell: So what are some of the common misconceptions that exist around older people in their work, in
Angellica Bell: your opinion, Helen?
Helen Cathcart: I think the main was when we started up Bolder, we were like, "
Helen Cathcart: Well, what's our cutoff point for old? What age are
Helen Cathcart: we looking at here?" We decided on 70, randomly. And
Helen Cathcart: then the more and more we did Bolder, it was
Helen Cathcart: like 70 is actually really young. The 70- year- olds
Helen Cathcart: are too young for Bolder. And I think the traditional
Helen Cathcart: view is that you work hard, you stop, and then
Helen Cathcart: you die when you retire. And the Bolders taught us
Helen Cathcart: that you've got all this life stretching ahead of you, even from
Helen Cathcart: 70. They basically were changing the meaning of what it
Helen Cathcart: was to retire. You can retire from your job, but
Helen Cathcart: you don't have to retire from life. That's the attitude
Helen Cathcart: that they had. They were just choosing to follow their
Helen Cathcart: passions. Their job was often their passion. And as Andrew
Helen Cathcart: said, they were continuing that, and that was keeping them going, and
Helen Cathcart: that'd be continuing part- time. Or using skills from that
Helen Cathcart: job to then go on and do other passions, but
Helen Cathcart: not just stopping. I think that was the key. The
Helen Cathcart: view is that success is to be achieved by a
Helen Cathcart: certain age. That it has a deadline. But it doesn't,
Helen Cathcart: and new goals can be set at any age. That
Helen Cathcart: was a key thing with our Bolder interviewees. One reason
Helen Cathcart: we did start this was to help our future selves,
Helen Cathcart: because we're all getting older, to change the narrative around
Helen Cathcart: it now while we can and can be listened to
Helen Cathcart: and have that forum was something that we really thought of.
Angellica Bell: Yeah, because I suppose a lot of people are scared of retiring.
Angellica Bell: That word especially. It's meant to be exciting. It's when you
Angellica Bell: get your life back. But for a lot of people,
Angellica Bell: it's said in a negative way. So are you about
Angellica Bell: trying to turn that into a positive embrace moment in
Angellica Bell: your life?
Helen Cathcart: That's exactly it. Some examples of our interviewees, (Ellie MacGowan)
Helen Cathcart: is 78 and she became an open water swimming champion. (Pat and Alicia Moorhead)
Helen Cathcart: , age 87 and 72, compete in skydiving competitions around
Helen Cathcart: the world. Pat completed 80 jumps on his 80th birthday.
Helen Cathcart: That was his goal that he set himself. (Jennifer Murray)
Helen Cathcart: is age 74 and took up helicopter piloting in her
Helen Cathcart: 50s and headed off around the world and decided to
Helen Cathcart: do that because no woman had done it solo. So
Helen Cathcart: she was, " That's what I'm going to do when I'm older."
Angellica Bell: I love those stories. They're just amazing. Do you know
Angellica Bell: what, my little one wants to get roller skates and
Angellica Bell: she wants me to get them too. And I was like, "
Angellica Bell: No, no, no, I'm too old for that. I'll break a
Angellica Bell: bone." But now you've put me to shame. I'm going
Angellica Bell: to be roller skating soon.
Helen Cathcart: It does change your mindset. It made us feel really
Helen Cathcart: that we think negatively and leisurely.
Angellica Bell: Exactly. Well, Andrew, you've touched on how retiring has changed
Angellica Bell: between the generations. Can you just expand on that?
Andrew Kail: Helen just makes a great point though, because as I
Andrew Kail: said before, if you look at some of the structural things, life expectancy's
Andrew Kail: longer, healthcare is better, but I think that there are probably
Andrew Kail: two other factors I maybe draw upon. One is pensions
Andrew Kail: are often better funded. We've got a generation of pensioners
Andrew Kail: now. The lucky ones who have got defined benefit pension
Andrew Kail: schemes from years in employment. That gives them an income
Andrew Kail: for life that they're enjoying. So they're funding, if they're
Andrew Kail: fortunate enough to have one, a retirement over a longer
Andrew Kail: period of time, which is really important. The second one
Andrew Kail: I'd say, and we've touched on it again already, is
Andrew Kail: particularly in the UK, service- based economy. There are more
Andrew Kail: jobs for older people. So retirement doesn't need to mean
Andrew Kail: you stop working, never start again. There are sectors of the
Andrew Kail: economy, hospitality and leisure being two of them, where a
Andrew Kail: large proportion of the workers are potentially retirees, which is
Andrew Kail: really helpful. But I think Helen has just made a
Andrew Kail: critical point around mindset. I suspect if we went back
Andrew Kail: 50 or 60 years, people retired and that was the
Andrew Kail: waiting for God moment, because their life expectancy wasn't very
Andrew Kail: long. Now it's very different. It's the next era. It's
Andrew Kail: get a different job. It's find a new hobby. It's
Andrew Kail: build a new circle of friends in the expectation. This
Andrew Kail: could be several decades of your life. That mindset point
Andrew Kail: is hugely important to the way that people plan and
Andrew Kail: think about retirement. It has all sorts of implications, but
Andrew Kail: hugely positive.
Angellica Bell: And our older generation, they can have a real impact on the economic
Angellica Bell: benefits for society as well, right?
Andrew Kail: I think hugely, and I speak from sort of personal experience.
Andrew Kail: The family unit, the way that the family unit can
Andrew Kail: pull together, particularly whether it's childcare or looking after the
Andrew Kail: house or supporting you, is fantastically helpful for the family
Andrew Kail: unit, and I think many families benefit from that. But as you're
Andrew Kail: saying, the economic, the spending power now of retirees is
Andrew Kail: enormous and there are whole sort of sways of the
Andrew Kail: economy. I mentioned hospitality and leisure as being two that
Andrew Kail: are incredibly dependent upon retirement incomes for their business. So
Andrew Kail: I think it's hugely good for society and the economy
Andrew Kail: that we have a group of retirees over many decades
Andrew Kail: have got the sorts of hobbies and lifestyles that Helen
Andrew Kail: talked about. Those are probably at the more adventurous end,
Andrew Kail: but we've got a very sort of thriving sector of
Andrew Kail: the economy in what can often be referred to as
Andrew Kail: the great pound, but it's a hugely important part of the economy.
Angellica Bell: And with Nigel and Rosetta, they both planned well. In Rosetta's case,
Angellica Bell: she continues to earn during retirement. So she's really empowered
Angellica Bell: herself by thinking ahead. It does matter to get that straight.
Andrew Kail: It does. Many of the times, it comes down to
Andrew Kail: economic choices. People don't like the idea of stopping working
Andrew Kail: and not making a contribution. So people do it for
Andrew Kail: social and professional reasons too. But the planning is critical.
Andrew Kail: Partly here, it's economics, it's time value of money. The
Andrew Kail: sooner you start saving, the more it will grow, and
Andrew Kail: that makes sense. But I think it's really important that as soon
Andrew Kail: as you can, and of course, this is sometimes hard
Andrew Kail: when it's decades away, but making that conscious decision about, "
Andrew Kail: What sort of retirement do I want to have? What
Andrew Kail: are my likely savings and income that I want? And
Andrew Kail: then what are my options and choices?" This all comes
Andrew Kail: down to planning. It comes down to advice. So these
Andrew Kail: are typically uncertain for many reasons. And we know from
Andrew Kail: talking to our customers, they find it very complicated. So
Andrew Kail: the plan is hugely important and getting the right support
Andrew Kail: and advice around you is important too.
Angellica Bell: We've just gone through a very strange year, and people
Angellica Bell: retiring during the pandemic might've faced some difficult decisions. What
Angellica Bell: sort of impact would COVID- 19 have had on people retiring
Angellica Bell: and planning to retire in the next couple of years?
Andrew Kail: Fascinating question. We've just issued some research on Legal & General.
Andrew Kail: What it shows is that there are real winners and losers.
Andrew Kail: So the research we've just published estimates you've got 1.
Andrew Kail: 45 million people who are now going to delay their
Andrew Kail: retirement as a result of COVID.
Helen Cathcart: Really?
Andrew Kail: Which is a huge group of people. Equally, there are
Andrew Kail: 1.3 million people who said they're going to accelerate their
Andrew Kail: retirement. What it really does highlight is that some people
Andrew Kail: have saved because of COVID, because they've not spent, they've
Andrew Kail: still continued to earn their salaries, but have not had
Andrew Kail: to spend the money. Some people have lost their jobs
Andrew Kail: or had less money, and therefore had to delay. So we've really
Andrew Kail: got winners and losers, and it does show you that
Andrew Kail: there's a big inequality issue to deal with with pensions
Andrew Kail: too. And unfortunately, it falls harder on certain sectors and
Andrew Kail: it also falls harder on women rather than men.
Angellica Bell: Is this something Legal & General is advising people on, either way, in
Angellica Bell: what they choose to do?
Andrew Kail: Yeah, I think we are. Lots of companies are too.
Andrew Kail: It's really important, given the complexity around this, that people
Andrew Kail: seek advice and guidance. That can come from a number
Andrew Kail: of sources. If listeners are feeling that that would be
Andrew Kail: very expensive, there are plenty of options, whether it's through
Andrew Kail: the money and pension service maps or indeed Legal & General's
Andrew Kail: own tie with the Open University, about getting free advice.
Andrew Kail: So I think the important point is get advice and
Andrew Kail: plan, and don't be put off by potential cost of
Andrew Kail: that. In certain places, it's available free of charge.
Angellica Bell: Helen, what are your tips for anyone in their 40s,
Angellica Bell: 50s, and 60s who have big, big goals to achieve, seeing as you've
Angellica Bell: been around these people who are achieving so much?
Helen Cathcart: They're so not focused on age. And actually, that part
Helen Cathcart: is quite irrelevant and it doesn't really matter if you're 40s,
Helen Cathcart: 50s, 60s. If you've got a goal to achieve, that's
Helen Cathcart: what you need to focus on, and don't be thinking, "
Helen Cathcart: Do I need to think about it differently because I'm
Helen Cathcart: 50, because I'm 60?" And the thing we've talked about
Helen Cathcart: throughout this, which is the mindset to gain the passion
Helen Cathcart: and the positivity, and that you're never too old, basically,
Helen Cathcart: to achieve any goal.
Angellica Bell: My final question, what's on your Bolder older bucket list?
Angellica Bell: Now, mine is going to be roller skating. I'm going
Angellica Bell: to be nailing that. What about yours?
Andrew Kail: Mine would be a sort of tour of a lifetime,
Andrew Kail: drive coast to coast America. That would be-
Angellica Bell: Route 66. That's such a good answer.
Andrew Kail: Route 66. Absolute all the way, in a big old trailer. That
Andrew Kail: would be fun.
Angellica Bell: You might have to put me in the boot. Thanks,
Angellica Bell: Andrew and Helen, for joining me. Hopefully, that's armed you
Angellica Bell: with some brilliant ideas on how you can return to
Angellica Bell: your passions, change the world, and feel financially secure and
Angellica Bell: ready for retirement. If you're building up that pension fund
Angellica Bell: now, why not also be thinking about how you can
Angellica Bell: ready yourself for some amazing achievements that will bring you
Angellica Bell: happiness, community connection, and a sense of purpose later on?
Angellica Bell: You can get more tips and find out more about
Angellica Bell: retirement planning on the website at legalandgeneral. com/ retirement. Next time...
Speaker 6: The joy of being this age is that you can
Speaker 6: pick things up and you can enjoy them. And if
Speaker 6: you don't enjoy them, you can drop them and try
Speaker 6: something else.
Angellica Bell: I'm Angellica Bell. You can follow this podcast on your favorite
Angellica Bell: platform, and I'll catch you next time.