WEBVTT - Should every first time buyer be treated as vulnerable? 0:00:02.910 --> 0:00:06.510 Hello, this is Mortgage Insider from Barclays, the one- stop 0:00:06.510 --> 0:00:08.910 shop for mortgage brokers and everything you need to know 0:00:08.910 --> 0:00:13.170 about the housing market. I'm Phil Spencer, property expert and 0:00:13.170 --> 0:00:19.829 sometime TV presenter. Overwhelming and confusing: apparently that's the experience for 0:00:19.829 --> 0:00:22.170 many first time buyers in the UK. And then you 0:00:22.170 --> 0:00:27.150 factor in complications like dyslexia or poor financial literacy, and 0:00:27.150 --> 0:00:31.080 it becomes even harder. So today we're looking at how 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:33.990 the process of buying a house can be made easier 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.900 for first time buyers. In order to do that, I've 0:00:36.900 --> 0:00:39.060 been joined by two people who have a ton of 0:00:39.060 --> 0:00:43.800 experience and thoughts on the topic. Louise Baxter, MBE. Louise 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.970 is a consumer champion, the co- CEO of Consumer Friend, 0:00:48.210 --> 0:00:50.670 and she sits on the board of several property- related 0:00:50.670 --> 0:00:56.100 organizations. Also with Kate Faulkner, OBE, chair of the Home 0:00:56.100 --> 0:01:01.710 Buying and Selling Council and founder of propertychecklists. co. uk. 0:01:01.860 --> 0:01:04.050 Great to have you both. Thank you for coming. Kate, 0:01:04.050 --> 0:01:07.530 Louise, excellent. I'm so pleased you've come on. And we 0:01:07.530 --> 0:01:11.520 should also have a little moment to recognize an OBE and an MBE, 0:01:11.610 --> 0:01:15.840 because I joined your illustrious brigade this year. 0:01:16.410 --> 0:01:16.561 You did. Congratulations. 0:01:16.561 --> 0:01:18.030 Congratulations. 0:01:18.030 --> 0:01:18.031 Thank you. 0:01:18.030 --> 0:01:21.002 Were you surprised? I must have (inaudible) - 0:01:21.060 --> 0:01:21.151 I was. 0:01:21.151 --> 0:01:22.770 ... I was convinced it was a scam. 0:01:23.220 --> 0:01:24.810 Oh, you could have put me up off the ceiling 0:01:24.810 --> 0:01:25.650 for about a week. Yeah. I had absolutely no idea. 0:01:28.020 --> 0:01:28.021 Yeah. It was- 0:01:28.020 --> 0:01:30.929 It's keeping it a secret that's hard, that I found really 0:01:30.929 --> 0:01:32.370 hard. I wanted to tell everyone straightaway. 0:01:32.610 --> 0:01:36.870 I was so stressed about it. Honestly, I still didn't believe 0:01:36.870 --> 0:01:41.101 it until my local radio announced it on that Friday night. 0:01:41.100 --> 0:01:41.101 I was exactly the same. 0:01:41.101 --> 0:01:43.890 And I wouldn't let anybody know. I was in a 0:01:43.890 --> 0:01:47.430 terrible state. But after that, it's all enjoyable. 0:01:47.610 --> 0:01:54.180 Yes. Yes. If we can both just start by explaining 0:01:54.180 --> 0:01:55.860 a little bit about what you do. Louise, you do 0:01:55.860 --> 0:01:56.641 hundreds of different things, I know, but ... 0:01:56.641 --> 0:01:56.880 How long have we got? 0:01:59.550 --> 0:02:03.000 I try and make consumer issues easier for people to 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.240 understand. So I do lots of different roles, but trying to 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.720 make what is very complicated markets a bit more inclusive 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.570 and easier for consumers to understand. I'm a bit of 0:02:12.570 --> 0:02:14.910 a law geek, but I can tend to try and 0:02:14.910 --> 0:02:18.030 make that a bit easier for an average consumer to understand. 0:02:18.060 --> 0:02:19.169 Okay. Well, I hope you manage it today. And Kate? 0:02:20.940 --> 0:02:24.600 So all I've ever wanted to do is to help 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.660 people carry out property projects, bit of buying and selling, self- 0:02:27.660 --> 0:02:29.880 build, whatever it is. So I've built a whole business 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.210 around consumer education. But the hat I wear today is 0:02:33.210 --> 0:02:35.520 one of my real passions is I believe we can 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:37.739 buy and sell a lot better than we do now. 0:02:38.190 --> 0:02:38.491 Wouldn't that be nice? 0:02:38.491 --> 0:02:42.120 It would be. We're getting there. And really, this is the year. 0:02:42.450 --> 0:02:45.990 So I've set up a voluntary organization. We now have 0:02:45.990 --> 0:02:49.230 200 people. We work very closely with MHEOG, who've been 0:02:49.230 --> 0:02:50.760 very good and very supportive of a lot of the 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.700 work we've done. And chair of the Home Buying and 0:02:53.700 --> 0:02:57.299 Selling Council. And everything we do is about just making 0:02:57.300 --> 0:03:00.929 it better. But not just actually for buyers and sellers; 0:03:00.990 --> 0:03:03.600 it's actually a really hard thing to do if you're 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.080 an agent, a conveyancing lawyer. It doesn't matter. It's actually 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.870 a really difficult process for the industry, as much deed 0:03:09.870 --> 0:03:14.130 brokers, as it is for consumers. So we think we 0:03:14.130 --> 0:03:15.600 have the way of fixing it for all. 0:03:15.630 --> 0:03:21.239 We're going to talk about material information, but we're focusing 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.650 on first time buyers. And I'm keen to hear your 0:03:25.650 --> 0:03:29.821 thoughts on the experience that first time buyers are going through at the moment. What would you say, Louise? 0:03:29.821 --> 0:03:36.270 If we strip it out at the moment, I've never seen a world where there's 0:03:36.270 --> 0:03:40.800 so much consumer vulnerability. And when I talk about vulnerability 0:03:41.310 --> 0:03:44.220 from a consumer perspective, we never like to label people 0:03:44.220 --> 0:03:48.360 as vulnerable, because it's very disempowering. So consumer vulnerability is caused 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.820 by the situation that's going on around you, which could 0:03:50.820 --> 0:03:53.820 be buying the house, and the marketplace that they're potentially 0:03:53.820 --> 0:03:56.400 trying to engage with. So if you think about first 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:00.240 time buyers, you've got the financial pressure, the jargon, the 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.930 assumed knowledge, the dealing with an estate agent, a mortgage 0:04:03.930 --> 0:04:06.630 broker, lender, all these different people. 0:04:06.630 --> 0:04:08.610 That they've never done before. 0:04:08.610 --> 0:04:12.210 Never done it before. We're not taught financial literacy in a 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.150 school setting anymore because the national curriculum is too packed. 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.630 So unless your parents have passed that knowledge onto you, 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.300 this is the first time you've done it. So the 0:04:21.300 --> 0:04:24.779 increased stress levels and the marketplace cause quite a storm 0:04:24.779 --> 0:04:28.740 of vulnerability, which means people aren't always able to objectively 0:04:28.980 --> 0:04:32.820 make decisions or actually truly understand the decisions that they're 0:04:32.820 --> 0:04:35.370 trying to make, which means they may not always get 0:04:35.370 --> 0:04:36.270 the best outcomes. 0:04:36.930 --> 0:04:41.820 So it's not just the challenges around affordability and deposits 0:04:41.820 --> 0:04:45.480 and cost of living and rent and stamp duty; it's 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.360 also understanding the process. Is that what you're saying? 0:04:48.570 --> 0:04:51.330 When you work in an industry, we have a lot of 0:04:51.330 --> 0:04:54.300 assumed knowledge. So then trying to communicate with somebody that 0:04:54.300 --> 0:04:58.050 doesn't work in your industry, when you spend probably 80% 0:04:58.050 --> 0:05:01.680 of your time with those other people, you can't strip 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.169 it out. People don't ... The average reading age of a 0:05:04.170 --> 0:05:06.960 UK consumer, a UK adult, is between nine and 12. 0:05:07.380 --> 0:05:10.169 There's 7. 1 million adults with a reading age of 0:05:10.170 --> 0:05:14.760 nine or below. So we've got this terrible habit of 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.099 being British and thinking if we speak in really big 0:05:17.100 --> 0:05:20.400 words, we sound really intelligent, and all we're doing is 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.640 blocking out half the room. And again, being British, we 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.160 don't go, " What does that mean? I don't understand that," 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.770 because we don't want to highlight ourselves as being stupid 0:05:28.770 --> 0:05:32.159 or less than the person sitting next to us. So 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:33.450 it's not inclusive. 0:05:33.570 --> 0:05:37.860 So are you saying that actually language is one of the biggest barriers? 0:05:37.950 --> 0:05:39.900 We should speak in plain English. So we shouldn't write 0:05:39.900 --> 0:05:42.060 in things like more than 25 words in a sentence. 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.089 We should use the common words. We should write in 0:05:45.089 --> 0:05:48.120 the active voice, not the passive voice. And we should 0:05:49.529 --> 0:05:52.050 write for nine- year- olds and then everybody will benefit 0:05:52.050 --> 0:05:54.390 from it, because we'll all understand it, even if we've 0:05:54.390 --> 0:05:56.339 got a higher reading age than a nine- year- old. 0:05:56.520 --> 0:06:00.840 You talked about financial literacy and the fact that that 0:06:01.050 --> 0:06:04.800 is a life skill and it's not taught in schools. Although I 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.320 did read recently, it is set to be taught in 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:08.700 schools in a couple of years' time. Is that right? 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:13.500 Media literacy and consumer literacy is coming in from OFCOM. 0:06:13.860 --> 0:06:16.800 So they are (inaudible) more critical thinking because we're 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.730 seeing a lot of disinformation and misinformation from a scams 0:06:20.730 --> 0:06:23.580 perspective and a social media perspective. So it's fake news, 0:06:23.580 --> 0:06:25.950 try and work out what's real and what's not. So 0:06:25.950 --> 0:06:27.180 that will come in hopefully, yeah. 0:06:27.510 --> 0:06:31.860 So how do and how can first time buyers understand ... 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.210 I mean, the finances are particularly important because if you 0:06:36.390 --> 0:06:38.219 pick the wrong mortgage or you don't understand what you're 0:06:38.220 --> 0:06:40.529 getting in, getting yourself in for at the beginning, you're in 0:06:40.529 --> 0:06:42.960 a whole pile of trouble. How can they help? 0:06:43.260 --> 0:06:45.779 So the way I've always worked, because I've represented lots 0:06:45.779 --> 0:06:49.890 of first time buyers, and they really don't understand a 0:06:49.890 --> 0:06:51.360 lot of it. But actually, I think a lot of 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.630 it's our fault. We don't, as an industry ... so you've 0:06:54.630 --> 0:06:58.980 got lenders, then you've got agents. And everybody says something 0:06:58.980 --> 0:07:01.589 different. And in the old days, as a first time buyer, 0:07:01.589 --> 0:07:03.660 you'd go to an agent, you'd go to 10 agents, 0:07:03.660 --> 0:07:05.609 you'd talk about a property, and two or three of 0:07:05.610 --> 0:07:08.610 them would teach you some stuff, and you'd naturally absorb 0:07:08.610 --> 0:07:10.920 something. But now they go online and find a property. 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.370 And I think that's a bit of a disastrous start. 0:07:14.790 --> 0:07:17.280 What we really need to be doing is ... the way 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.470 I communicate with them is I tell them stories. So 0:07:19.470 --> 0:07:22.020 if you want them to understand mortgage insurance, which I 0:07:22.020 --> 0:07:25.440 think should be compulsory, as the same if you're renting, 0:07:25.740 --> 0:07:27.540 what you do is you explain to them about the 0:07:27.540 --> 0:07:31.530 couple that bought a property. When they were moving in, 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.370 it was flat on a first floor, carrying the sofa up, 0:07:36.510 --> 0:07:41.250 sofa fell back, Chap fell back, broke his back, in 0:07:41.250 --> 0:07:42.570 hospital for six months. 0:07:43.740 --> 0:07:44.041 Couldn't work. 0:07:44.041 --> 0:07:47.430 Couldn't work, but how wonderful: the broker had organized the mortgage 0:07:47.430 --> 0:07:51.450 insurance and they were saved. They will never forget how 0:07:51.450 --> 0:07:54.870 important mortgage insurance is. So you do it with stories. 0:07:55.140 --> 0:07:56.760 But I think there's two things as well to bear 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:58.830 in mind with first time buyers, is that there's a 0:07:58.830 --> 0:08:02.460 whole load of people that could buy who don't because 0:08:02.460 --> 0:08:04.260 we tell them every single day in the news, you 0:08:04.260 --> 0:08:07.860 can't afford to. It's impossible. And I hate that. It's 0:08:07.860 --> 0:08:10.590 my pet hate that I want to get rid of. And then 0:08:10.590 --> 0:08:12.690 for those that ignore all of those, when they come 0:08:12.690 --> 0:08:16.500 in, we're not showing them case studies. We're not showing 0:08:16.500 --> 0:08:20.070 them of the successful people. We move 1. 2 million 0:08:20.190 --> 0:08:24.510 households a year, or houses get traded between sellers and 0:08:24.540 --> 0:08:30.480 buyers. And 350 of those are first time buyers. So there's loads 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:31.801 of first time buyers. They're the biggest parts of the market. 0:08:31.801 --> 0:08:32.700 Are they really? The biggest part of the market? 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:35.280 Yeah, effectively. 0:08:35.580 --> 0:08:37.261 Because they are such an important part of the market. 0:08:37.261 --> 0:08:37.381 Huge. 0:08:37.890 --> 0:08:39.750 If we don't have first time buyers, the whole thing 0:08:39.750 --> 0:08:40.500 grounds to a halt. 0:08:40.830 --> 0:08:44.850 Well, slightly interesting, that used to happen. But if you think 0:08:44.850 --> 0:08:49.710 of the nature of our population now, we're aging. So 0:08:49.710 --> 0:08:52.590 what we saw through the pandemic was first time buyers 0:08:52.590 --> 0:08:54.540 were struggling more to get on the market to start 0:08:54.540 --> 0:08:58.829 off with, but then you had second steppers and people 0:08:58.830 --> 0:09:02.099 trading down swapping with each other. But having said that, 0:09:02.100 --> 0:09:05.429 so weirdly, that's why the market grew when nobody thought 0:09:05.429 --> 0:09:07.949 it would do, because we'd lose the first time buyers. 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.470 But again, first time buyers stayed in because we have 0:09:10.470 --> 0:09:13.470 new rules, which turned out to be quite useful, where 0:09:13.470 --> 0:09:16.260 they're assessed at a higher rate and they're on repayment 0:09:16.260 --> 0:09:18.809 mortgages. So that's why we didn't have a crash in 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:23.579 2022 when we would've done normally. But they are still 0:09:23.700 --> 0:09:26.579 a massive part of the market. And it's important that 0:09:26.730 --> 0:09:30.570 people get on the ladder, but we don't do enough to 0:09:30.570 --> 0:09:31.050 get them on. 0:09:31.260 --> 0:09:34.230 You're so right. The media is full of the stories 0:09:34.230 --> 0:09:36.750 of how hard and tragic, and that's- 0:09:37.170 --> 0:09:40.140 Yeah. Well, you'll be asked the same, the amount of 0:09:40.140 --> 0:09:42.690 times you do a London interview and they're like, " Well, 0:09:42.690 --> 0:09:45.719 it's half a million to buy property." And I go, " Well, clearly 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.040 it isn't. And these are all the properties you can 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:55.140 get under 250,000." That's what we should all rally behind, 0:09:55.740 --> 0:09:57.540 and then we can get people on the ladder. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.660 As Louise says, if they don't understand the process and 0:10:00.660 --> 0:10:03.660 it's a bit scary and overwhelming, they don't understand the 0:10:03.660 --> 0:10:06.840 language or there's not people there to help, then the 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.121 temptation is to sit back and not tackle it. 0:10:09.121 --> 0:10:11.040 It's interest rates as well. So there's a lot of 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:16.500 fear factor around interest rates and the uncertainty. And the average consumer 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.191 won't understand what interest rates are. 0:10:20.191 --> 0:10:20.002 Absolutely (inaudible) . 0:10:20.002 --> 0:10:23.250 I know, exactly. So there's other things like the plain 0:10:23.250 --> 0:10:26.370 numbers principle. So rather than writing, " It's going to be 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.190 a 4% interest rate," et cetera, et cetera, expect somebody 0:10:29.190 --> 0:10:31.740 to work that out, go, " Right, if you borrow £ 100, you're going to 0:10:31.740 --> 0:10:34.650 pay £ 4 back in a year." Just make it really 0:10:34.650 --> 0:10:39.690 simple. We over complicate everything. We use too many acronyms- 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:39.991 (inaudible) yes. 0:10:39.991 --> 0:10:44.130 ... especially industry acronyms all of the time. And in 0:10:44.130 --> 0:10:46.559 my other job, I work dealing with fraud. And the 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.900 acronyms in that, I go in, I'm like, " What's just 0:10:48.900 --> 0:10:55.260 happened?" And I know the subject, I know the subject. So again, 0:10:55.620 --> 0:10:59.550 we're expecting people to identify themselves as not understanding, but 0:10:59.550 --> 0:11:02.969 also with vulnerability, if people are vulnerable, they might not 0:11:02.970 --> 0:11:06.540 know at that time, or they wouldn't want to ever admit 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.190 that vulnerability, which is the other thing. 0:11:08.190 --> 0:11:09.510 I think that's a really important point. 0:11:09.690 --> 0:11:12.480 I think it's 17% of people would say, " I've got 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.959 a characteristic of vulnerability," but the (inaudible) acronym then, 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:21.569 the Financial Conduct Authority are saying it's about 49% of 0:11:21.570 --> 0:11:25.050 us have got a characteristic that points to vulnerability. So 0:11:25.290 --> 0:11:26.280 people don't know that they're vulnerable at a particular time. 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.131 And I'd actually say anybody buying a home is vulnerable because- 0:11:29.131 --> 0:11:30.059 Yeah, I agree. 0:11:30.059 --> 0:11:32.790 ... most people buy, having a baby, getting divorced, getting 0:11:32.790 --> 0:11:34.920 married, somebody's died, they're in debt. Those are the- 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.880 Or they've got an inheritance. And again, that causes vulnerability, a cash influx. 0:11:41.370 --> 0:11:43.170 It does. So I think everybody should be treated in that vain. You're absolutely right. 0:11:43.170 --> 0:11:45.809 Where does neurodivergence sit in all of this? 0:11:46.020 --> 0:11:50.700 So neurodivergence, it's one in seven of us. So about over 0:11:50.700 --> 0:11:55.620 15% of the latest statistics of people that are neurodivergent. So 0:11:55.620 --> 0:11:58.380 again, there's different ways that can cause vulnerability or not. 0:11:58.380 --> 0:12:00.720 It depends what you're doing. It depends where you are 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.420 in your journey of neurodivergence in relation to what's happening, 0:12:03.690 --> 0:12:09.420 but it can cause situational or marketplace vulnerability, especially in 0:12:09.420 --> 0:12:13.380 relation to understanding the information that's provided to you. So 0:12:13.380 --> 0:12:15.420 there's different things that you can do. So for example, 0:12:15.420 --> 0:12:18.929 if you've got attention deficit, sometimes a very busy website 0:12:18.929 --> 0:12:21.150 will be so overwhelming, you just can't engage with it. 0:12:21.660 --> 0:12:25.080 Or if you are on the autistic spectrum, you might 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:29.460 need communication in a very literal, direct way. But it's 0:12:29.910 --> 0:12:35.070 subjective. So with any of this, the vulnerability piece, whether it's neurodivergence, 0:12:35.070 --> 0:12:40.920 whether it's financial difficulties, lack of language skills, ask that person, " 0:12:41.100 --> 0:12:43.440 What do you need?" So if you strip it out, " What do 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:44.488 you need? How can we help you"- 0:12:44.489 --> 0:12:45.271 So as a broker listening to this, ask them what they need. 0:12:45.271 --> 0:12:50.219 I would suggest you should do a bit of learning around 0:12:50.220 --> 0:12:52.950 what vulnerability looks like so that you might have some 0:12:53.010 --> 0:12:56.850 pointers around how you would identify it. But the minute 0:12:56.850 --> 0:12:59.189 you think, " Actually, I'm not sure this person's understanding this 0:12:59.190 --> 0:13:02.970 information or something I'm not sure about"; " What can we 0:13:02.970 --> 0:13:05.070 do to help you to ensure that you get what 0:13:05.070 --> 0:13:08.100 you need from this situation?" And it could be simple 0:13:08.100 --> 0:13:10.679 things like print it out, let them read it, print 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.350 it out size 14 font double spacing on the paging 0:13:13.350 --> 0:13:15.900 so that you can read it easier. Time, do you 0:13:15.900 --> 0:13:18.000 want to invite somebody with you, a trusted person with 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.160 you who can then take the information away and then 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.050 explain it in a way that you can understand? 0:13:22.050 --> 0:13:22.800 That'd be me. 0:13:22.979 --> 0:13:22.980 Yeah. Me. 0:13:22.980 --> 0:13:27.120 But you know, I think this is really important, because what I'm 0:13:27.450 --> 0:13:30.630 quite shocked at is with some of the consumer duty 0:13:30.630 --> 0:13:31.800 work that's been happening- 0:13:31.830 --> 0:13:34.950 Yes. We've talked on this podcast about consumer duty. Surely 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.110 that's what this is about, isn't it? 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.410 Well, it kind of is. And I'm not no expert on 0:13:40.410 --> 0:13:43.590 this, but the bit that horrifies me is that you 0:13:43.890 --> 0:13:47.490 can do explainers, but you can't give advice. And for 0:13:47.490 --> 0:13:49.860 me, if I wanted to change the world tomorrow, which 0:13:49.860 --> 0:13:53.880 I do, my big plea is that I want every 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.700 first time buyer, before they do anything in the property 0:13:56.700 --> 0:13:59.610 space, to go and talk to a broker. Because there's 1. 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.250 2 million moves, as we've mentioned; every single one of 0:14:02.250 --> 0:14:05.220 those is different. None of them are same, why they're 0:14:05.220 --> 0:14:08.819 buying, why they're selling, the type of property, particularly for 0:14:08.820 --> 0:14:12.540 first time buyers. Good brokers are worth their weight in 0:14:12.540 --> 0:14:16.290 gold. I don't want them to fill in a calculator. I want 0:14:16.290 --> 0:14:18.210 them to go and see a broker, because that's the 0:14:18.210 --> 0:14:21.090 person who can hold their hand throughout all of it. 0:14:21.330 --> 0:14:24.960 And one that does the amazing work and takes on 0:14:24.990 --> 0:14:28.320 board the work that you've done, they can really help 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.290 people out because I've done loads of things where I've 0:14:31.290 --> 0:14:33.630 been asked, " Oh, Kate, we want to sell properties without 0:14:33.630 --> 0:14:35.580 agents," and this. And I've run away from all of 0:14:35.580 --> 0:14:38.970 it, because you need a person. You need a face- to- 0:14:38.970 --> 0:14:42.540 face, I think, because a calculator tells you nothing, and- 0:14:42.540 --> 0:14:45.480 Yeah. And we all live in our own unique circumstances 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:45.661 in our own situations. 0:14:45.661 --> 0:14:48.990 Absolutely. And it's only by sitting with a broker that 0:14:48.990 --> 0:14:53.130 you can understand that. And I've just done a remortgage. 0:14:53.550 --> 0:14:57.690 And it was weird, because I literally just filled in 0:14:57.690 --> 0:15:01.560 a few boxes and it was all done. And I 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:03.750 was more stressed by that than talking to a broker 0:15:03.750 --> 0:15:08.130 about it because I couldn't discuss anything. 0:15:08.910 --> 0:15:08.911 You didn't know if it was the right thing. 0:15:08.911 --> 0:15:13.020 I wasn't allowed to, and I hated that. So for me, please, as 0:15:13.020 --> 0:15:16.290 a broker or a first time buyer, get together, sit, 0:15:16.290 --> 0:15:19.290 whether it's over Zoom or whatever it might be. But 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.680 don't do it all online. I think that is really 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.450 not the place for the work we do. 0:15:24.450 --> 0:15:28.470 Louise, has consumer duty changed the conversation when it comes 0:15:28.470 --> 0:15:29.310 to vulnerability? 0:15:29.610 --> 0:15:32.220 It has. There's still a way to go, I would 0:15:32.220 --> 0:15:36.180 say. So it's all about ensuring people get better outcomes, 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.260 but there's still sometimes a disconnect with what we're saying 0:15:40.260 --> 0:15:43.680 and what people are actually hearing. I don't think we do enough of 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.860 checking that people actually understand the information that we've given 0:15:46.860 --> 0:15:50.310 to them. So from a broker perspective, that would just be, " 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:52.410 Can you explain the decision you've just made and why 0:15:52.410 --> 0:15:55.739 you've made it?" So to the consumer, so if a 0:15:55.740 --> 0:15:57.720 consumer goes, " I'm going to take that deal or I 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.900 want that," it's just a case of questioning, " Can you 0:16:00.900 --> 0:16:03.900 tell me why?" And if that is, " Oh, because this, 0:16:03.900 --> 0:16:06.030 this and this," you can check their understanding of it 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:08.970 to ensure that they get the best outcomes for them 0:16:08.970 --> 0:16:12.240 personally, because again, we're all going to make different decisions. 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.580 Like my broker, I dealt with on WhatsApp. We would text all 0:16:14.580 --> 0:16:16.770 day because I was at work, I didn't have time to 0:16:16.770 --> 0:16:19.020 talk to him. It also meant I could go back 0:16:19.020 --> 0:16:21.030 and look at what he'd put so I had time 0:16:21.030 --> 0:16:21.181 to read it. 0:16:21.181 --> 0:16:24.930 Yeah. But at least you had a conversation one- to- one, 0:16:25.230 --> 0:16:29.370 and I think that's really what we mustn't lose with 0:16:29.370 --> 0:16:32.190 the work that's going on and with the AI and everything. 0:16:32.370 --> 0:16:34.830 That one- to- one conversation is so critical. 0:16:35.190 --> 0:16:40.350 What else needs to change to improve the experience for 0:16:40.350 --> 0:16:41.130 first time buyers? 0:16:41.580 --> 0:16:44.070 So I think a lot of it for me just goes 0:16:44.070 --> 0:16:48.870 to real basics. They don't understand the costs and they 0:16:48.900 --> 0:16:52.110 don't understand when they have to pay things. Those are 0:16:52.110 --> 0:16:56.640 two absolutely critical things. They don't understand the significance of 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:01.020 becoming self- employed and that their change in circumstance will 0:17:01.020 --> 0:17:04.560 cause a problem, or indeed, going back to mortgage insurance, 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.129 the importance of having things like that. So for me, 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.730 it's making sure that they have that broker by their 0:17:11.730 --> 0:17:14.369 side from the start. If you can get in with 0:17:14.369 --> 0:17:17.879 somebody before they start looking for property, you can help 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.750 them. If you appear halfway through, I'm really sorry, we've 0:17:21.750 --> 0:17:26.010 lost them. It's about getting them at the start and making sure 0:17:26.010 --> 0:17:28.710 that they've understood those costs and when to pay, particularly 0:17:28.710 --> 0:17:31.560 because you've got things like lifetime ISAs, help- to- buy ISAs. 0:17:31.770 --> 0:17:34.409 There's been some very confusing messaging on those as well. 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:39.570 So for me, life is much more simple, and just 0:17:39.570 --> 0:17:41.280 make sure they've got a broker by their side through 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.399 WhatsApp or whatever it is, and have that one- to- one conversation. 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.210 Louise, anything else that needs to happen or is happening? 0:17:49.380 --> 0:17:52.439 The language needs to be so simplified. You have to 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.600 imagine that you are talking to somebody that has never 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.810 done this before, and we are so bad at that. Even things 0:17:57.810 --> 0:18:00.300 like if you're talking about redemptions, if you went and did a 0:18:00.300 --> 0:18:02.609 poll outside on the street, most consumers will go, " I 0:18:02.609 --> 0:18:05.580 don't know what that is. I don't know what a redemption is. 0:18:05.580 --> 0:18:06.000 Don't know what it is." 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:06.002 (inaudible) really. 0:18:06.002 --> 0:18:09.690 But again, we have all of this, it's written in ... 0:18:10.020 --> 0:18:12.869 So even with my mortgage, for example, it came on 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:17.970 thin paper, small print that I can't read properly because my eyesight's 0:18:17.970 --> 0:18:19.920 not particularly good. I don't want to have to take 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.550 photos of things and then zoom in on them. So it's simplify 0:18:23.550 --> 0:18:27.660 the language, make it easier to read, so more spacing. 0:18:27.690 --> 0:18:31.320 It's really simple things: white spacing on pages, dark black 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.590 font in a font that is really good for people 0:18:34.590 --> 0:18:36.960 that are dyslexic so that then that you're not having a 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.750 situation where people aren't able to access it. But also 0:18:39.750 --> 0:18:43.320 allow that time for questioning as well. So it's be 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:47.129 kind, it's ask questions, don't make assumptions about people as 0:18:47.130 --> 0:18:50.010 well. So if you think somebody's vulnerable, don't treat them 0:18:50.010 --> 0:18:53.970 like they're vulnerable. It's disempowering. So empathy. If you can't 0:18:53.970 --> 0:18:59.040 empathize, sympathize. And have those really open conversations where if 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:03.869 you're with a broker, you cultivate that relationship that no 0:19:03.869 --> 0:19:06.151 question I ask is stupid. That's what ... I mean- 0:19:06.151 --> 0:19:06.152 It's a nice way of putting it. 0:19:06.152 --> 0:19:10.709 Yes. How many times have I spoken to my broker and go, " Sorry about the 0:19:10.710 --> 0:19:12.571 silly question, but" ... And I work in the world, but I've still got silly questions. Yeah. 0:19:12.571 --> 0:19:12.781 Yeah, and you will, because- 0:19:12.781 --> 0:19:14.002 But she says it's not a silly question (inaudible) - 0:19:14.002 --> 0:19:14.003 No question's silly. That's the thing, isn't it? 0:19:13.980 --> 0:19:23.399 But also, everything changes so often in our world. The 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.530 way you bought a home last year isn't the same 0:19:25.530 --> 0:19:27.869 way you buy it this year; stamp duty changes, all 0:19:27.869 --> 0:19:31.530 of those things that we've mentioned before. There's a lot of external 0:19:31.530 --> 0:19:33.810 factors that influence how you buy and sell a home 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:38.699 that the industry has no control over; interest rates, as 0:19:38.700 --> 0:19:42.330 you mentioned. And I think that's quite hard. And we 0:19:42.330 --> 0:19:45.869 understand the implications of it, but I think we have 0:19:45.869 --> 0:19:49.440 to know that, again, every time everybody moves, it's different. 0:19:49.710 --> 0:19:51.600 And you can move five years ago; it doesn't mean 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:52.859 you'll understand how to move now. 0:19:52.859 --> 0:19:53.340 Absolutely. 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.880 And there are changes afoot, so that's really good. So 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:58.320 we have some really exciting time- 0:19:58.380 --> 0:19:58.470 Sure. And there's more coming. 0:19:58.530 --> 0:20:00.630 More coming. Yes. I couldn't be more excited. 0:20:00.810 --> 0:20:03.570 I think if you were to treat everybody as if they were vulnerable, 0:20:03.570 --> 0:20:05.520 which they are, which we've said when they're buying a house, 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.161 you'll design an inclusive service, which everyone will benefit from. 0:20:08.161 --> 0:20:08.970 Love that. Really love that. 0:20:09.150 --> 0:20:14.369