Phil Spencer: Hello, this is Mortgage Insider from Barclays, the one- stop
Phil Spencer: shop for mortgage brokers and everything you need to know
Phil Spencer: about the housing market. I'm Phil Spencer, property expert and
Phil Spencer: sometime TV presenter. Overwhelming and confusing: apparently that's the experience for
Phil Spencer: many first time buyers in the UK. And then you
Phil Spencer: factor in complications like dyslexia or poor financial literacy, and
Phil Spencer: it becomes even harder. So today we're looking at how
Phil Spencer: the process of buying a house can be made easier
Phil Spencer: for first time buyers. In order to do that, I've
Phil Spencer: been joined by two people who have a ton of
Phil Spencer: experience and thoughts on the topic. Louise Baxter, MBE. Louise
Phil Spencer: is a consumer champion, the co- CEO of Consumer Friend,
Phil Spencer: and she sits on the board of several property- related
Phil Spencer: organizations. Also with Kate Faulkner, OBE, chair of the Home
Phil Spencer: Buying and Selling Council and founder of propertychecklists. co. uk.
Phil Spencer: Great to have you both. Thank you for coming. Kate,
Phil Spencer: Louise, excellent. I'm so pleased you've come on. And we
Phil Spencer: should also have a little moment to recognize an OBE and an MBE,
Phil Spencer: because I joined your illustrious brigade this year.
Kate Faulkner: You did. Congratulations.
Louise Baxter: Congratulations.
Phil Spencer: Thank you.
Kate Faulkner: Were you surprised? I must have (inaudible) -
Phil Spencer: I was.
Kate Faulkner: ... I was convinced it was a scam.
Phil Spencer: Oh, you could have put me up off the ceiling
Phil Spencer: for about a week. Yeah. I had absolutely no idea.
Kate Faulkner: Yeah. It was-
Louise Baxter: It's keeping it a secret that's hard, that I found really
Louise Baxter: hard. I wanted to tell everyone straightaway.
Kate Faulkner: I was so stressed about it. Honestly, I still didn't believe
Kate Faulkner: it until my local radio announced it on that Friday night.
Phil Spencer: I was exactly the same.
Kate Faulkner: And I wouldn't let anybody know. I was in a
Kate Faulkner: terrible state. But after that, it's all enjoyable.
Phil Spencer: Yes. Yes. If we can both just start by explaining
Phil Spencer: a little bit about what you do. Louise, you do
Phil Spencer: hundreds of different things, I know, but ...
Kate Faulkner: How long have we got?
Louise Baxter: I try and make consumer issues easier for people to
Louise Baxter: understand. So I do lots of different roles, but trying to
Louise Baxter: make what is very complicated markets a bit more inclusive
Louise Baxter: and easier for consumers to understand. I'm a bit of
Louise Baxter: a law geek, but I can tend to try and
Louise Baxter: make that a bit easier for an average consumer to understand.
Phil Spencer: Okay. Well, I hope you manage it today. And Kate?
Kate Faulkner: So all I've ever wanted to do is to help
Kate Faulkner: people carry out property projects, bit of buying and selling, self-
Kate Faulkner: build, whatever it is. So I've built a whole business
Kate Faulkner: around consumer education. But the hat I wear today is
Kate Faulkner: one of my real passions is I believe we can
Kate Faulkner: buy and sell a lot better than we do now.
Phil Spencer: Wouldn't that be nice?
Kate Faulkner: It would be. We're getting there. And really, this is the year.
Kate Faulkner: So I've set up a voluntary organization. We now have
Kate Faulkner: 200 people. We work very closely with MHEOG, who've been
Kate Faulkner: very good and very supportive of a lot of the
Kate Faulkner: work we've done. And chair of the Home Buying and
Kate Faulkner: Selling Council. And everything we do is about just making
Kate Faulkner: it better. But not just actually for buyers and sellers;
Kate Faulkner: it's actually a really hard thing to do if you're
Kate Faulkner: an agent, a conveyancing lawyer. It doesn't matter. It's actually
Kate Faulkner: a really difficult process for the industry, as much deed
Kate Faulkner: brokers, as it is for consumers. So we think we
Kate Faulkner: have the way of fixing it for all.
Phil Spencer: We're going to talk about material information, but we're focusing
Phil Spencer: on first time buyers. And I'm keen to hear your
Phil Spencer: thoughts on the experience that first time buyers are going through at the moment. What would you say, Louise?
Louise Baxter: If we strip it out at the moment, I've never seen a world where there's
Louise Baxter: so much consumer vulnerability. And when I talk about vulnerability
Louise Baxter: from a consumer perspective, we never like to label people
Louise Baxter: as vulnerable, because it's very disempowering. So consumer vulnerability is caused
Louise Baxter: by the situation that's going on around you, which could
Louise Baxter: be buying the house, and the marketplace that they're potentially
Louise Baxter: trying to engage with. So if you think about first
Louise Baxter: time buyers, you've got the financial pressure, the jargon, the
Louise Baxter: assumed knowledge, the dealing with an estate agent, a mortgage
Louise Baxter: broker, lender, all these different people.
Phil Spencer: That they've never done before.
Louise Baxter: Never done it before. We're not taught financial literacy in a
Louise Baxter: school setting anymore because the national curriculum is too packed.
Louise Baxter: So unless your parents have passed that knowledge onto you,
Louise Baxter: this is the first time you've done it. So the
Louise Baxter: increased stress levels and the marketplace cause quite a storm
Louise Baxter: of vulnerability, which means people aren't always able to objectively
Louise Baxter: make decisions or actually truly understand the decisions that they're
Louise Baxter: trying to make, which means they may not always get
Louise Baxter: the best outcomes.
Phil Spencer: So it's not just the challenges around affordability and deposits
Phil Spencer: and cost of living and rent and stamp duty; it's
Phil Spencer: also understanding the process. Is that what you're saying?
Louise Baxter: When you work in an industry, we have a lot of
Louise Baxter: assumed knowledge. So then trying to communicate with somebody that
Louise Baxter: doesn't work in your industry, when you spend probably 80%
Louise Baxter: of your time with those other people, you can't strip
Louise Baxter: it out. People don't ... The average reading age of a
Louise Baxter: UK consumer, a UK adult, is between nine and 12.
Louise Baxter: There's 7. 1 million adults with a reading age of
Louise Baxter: nine or below. So we've got this terrible habit of
Louise Baxter: being British and thinking if we speak in really big
Louise Baxter: words, we sound really intelligent, and all we're doing is
Louise Baxter: blocking out half the room. And again, being British, we
Louise Baxter: don't go, " What does that mean? I don't understand that,"
Louise Baxter: because we don't want to highlight ourselves as being stupid
Louise Baxter: or less than the person sitting next to us. So
Louise Baxter: it's not inclusive.
Phil Spencer: So are you saying that actually language is one of the biggest barriers?
Louise Baxter: We should speak in plain English. So we shouldn't write
Louise Baxter: in things like more than 25 words in a sentence.
Louise Baxter: We should use the common words. We should write in
Louise Baxter: the active voice, not the passive voice. And we should
Louise Baxter: write for nine- year- olds and then everybody will benefit
Louise Baxter: from it, because we'll all understand it, even if we've
Louise Baxter: got a higher reading age than a nine- year- old.
Phil Spencer: You talked about financial literacy and the fact that that
Phil Spencer: is a life skill and it's not taught in schools. Although I
Phil Spencer: did read recently, it is set to be taught in
Phil Spencer: schools in a couple of years' time. Is that right?
Louise Baxter: Media literacy and consumer literacy is coming in from OFCOM.
Louise Baxter: So they are (inaudible) more critical thinking because we're
Louise Baxter: seeing a lot of disinformation and misinformation from a scams
Louise Baxter: perspective and a social media perspective. So it's fake news,
Louise Baxter: try and work out what's real and what's not. So
Louise Baxter: that will come in hopefully, yeah.
Phil Spencer: So how do and how can first time buyers understand ...
Phil Spencer: I mean, the finances are particularly important because if you
Phil Spencer: pick the wrong mortgage or you don't understand what you're
Phil Spencer: getting in, getting yourself in for at the beginning, you're in
Phil Spencer: a whole pile of trouble. How can they help?
Kate Faulkner: So the way I've always worked, because I've represented lots
Kate Faulkner: of first time buyers, and they really don't understand a
Kate Faulkner: lot of it. But actually, I think a lot of
Kate Faulkner: it's our fault. We don't, as an industry ... so you've
Kate Faulkner: got lenders, then you've got agents. And everybody says something
Kate Faulkner: different. And in the old days, as a first time buyer,
Kate Faulkner: you'd go to an agent, you'd go to 10 agents,
Kate Faulkner: you'd talk about a property, and two or three of
Kate Faulkner: them would teach you some stuff, and you'd naturally absorb
Kate Faulkner: something. But now they go online and find a property.
Kate Faulkner: And I think that's a bit of a disastrous start.
Kate Faulkner: What we really need to be doing is ... the way
Kate Faulkner: I communicate with them is I tell them stories. So
Kate Faulkner: if you want them to understand mortgage insurance, which I
Kate Faulkner: think should be compulsory, as the same if you're renting,
Kate Faulkner: what you do is you explain to them about the
Kate Faulkner: couple that bought a property. When they were moving in,
Kate Faulkner: it was flat on a first floor, carrying the sofa up,
Kate Faulkner: sofa fell back, Chap fell back, broke his back, in
Kate Faulkner: hospital for six months.
Phil Spencer: Couldn't work.
Kate Faulkner: Couldn't work, but how wonderful: the broker had organized the mortgage
Kate Faulkner: insurance and they were saved. They will never forget how
Kate Faulkner: important mortgage insurance is. So you do it with stories.
Kate Faulkner: But I think there's two things as well to bear
Kate Faulkner: in mind with first time buyers, is that there's a
Kate Faulkner: whole load of people that could buy who don't because
Kate Faulkner: we tell them every single day in the news, you
Kate Faulkner: can't afford to. It's impossible. And I hate that. It's
Kate Faulkner: my pet hate that I want to get rid of. And then
Kate Faulkner: for those that ignore all of those, when they come
Kate Faulkner: in, we're not showing them case studies. We're not showing
Kate Faulkner: them of the successful people. We move 1. 2 million
Kate Faulkner: households a year, or houses get traded between sellers and
Kate Faulkner: buyers. And 350 of those are first time buyers. So there's loads
Kate Faulkner: of first time buyers. They're the biggest parts of the market.
Phil Spencer: Are they really? The biggest part of the market?
Kate Faulkner: Yeah, effectively.
Phil Spencer: Because they are such an important part of the market.
Kate Faulkner: Huge.
Phil Spencer: If we don't have first time buyers, the whole thing
Phil Spencer: grounds to a halt.
Kate Faulkner: Well, slightly interesting, that used to happen. But if you think
Kate Faulkner: of the nature of our population now, we're aging. So
Kate Faulkner: what we saw through the pandemic was first time buyers
Kate Faulkner: were struggling more to get on the market to start
Kate Faulkner: off with, but then you had second steppers and people
Kate Faulkner: trading down swapping with each other. But having said that,
Kate Faulkner: so weirdly, that's why the market grew when nobody thought
Kate Faulkner: it would do, because we'd lose the first time buyers.
Kate Faulkner: But again, first time buyers stayed in because we have
Kate Faulkner: new rules, which turned out to be quite useful, where
Kate Faulkner: they're assessed at a higher rate and they're on repayment
Kate Faulkner: mortgages. So that's why we didn't have a crash in
Kate Faulkner: 2022 when we would've done normally. But they are still
Kate Faulkner: a massive part of the market. And it's important that
Kate Faulkner: people get on the ladder, but we don't do enough to
Kate Faulkner: get them on.
Phil Spencer: You're so right. The media is full of the stories
Phil Spencer: of how hard and tragic, and that's-
Kate Faulkner: Yeah. Well, you'll be asked the same, the amount of
Kate Faulkner: times you do a London interview and they're like, " Well,
Kate Faulkner: it's half a million to buy property." And I go, " Well, clearly
Kate Faulkner: it isn't. And these are all the properties you can
Kate Faulkner: get under 250,000." That's what we should all rally behind,
Kate Faulkner: and then we can get people on the ladder.
Phil Spencer: As Louise says, if they don't understand the process and
Phil Spencer: it's a bit scary and overwhelming, they don't understand the
Phil Spencer: language or there's not people there to help, then the
Phil Spencer: temptation is to sit back and not tackle it.
Louise Baxter: It's interest rates as well. So there's a lot of
Louise Baxter: fear factor around interest rates and the uncertainty. And the average consumer
Louise Baxter: won't understand what interest rates are.
Kate Faulkner: Absolutely (inaudible) .
Louise Baxter: I know, exactly. So there's other things like the plain
Louise Baxter: numbers principle. So rather than writing, " It's going to be
Louise Baxter: a 4% interest rate," et cetera, et cetera, expect somebody
Louise Baxter: to work that out, go, " Right, if you borrow £ 100, you're going to
Louise Baxter: pay £ 4 back in a year." Just make it really
Louise Baxter: simple. We over complicate everything. We use too many acronyms-
Kate Faulkner: (inaudible) yes.
Louise Baxter: ... especially industry acronyms all of the time. And in
Louise Baxter: my other job, I work dealing with fraud. And the
Louise Baxter: acronyms in that, I go in, I'm like, " What's just
Louise Baxter: happened?" And I know the subject, I know the subject. So again,
Louise Baxter: we're expecting people to identify themselves as not understanding, but
Louise Baxter: also with vulnerability, if people are vulnerable, they might not
Louise Baxter: know at that time, or they wouldn't want to ever admit
Louise Baxter: that vulnerability, which is the other thing.
Kate Faulkner: I think that's a really important point.
Louise Baxter: I think it's 17% of people would say, " I've got
Louise Baxter: a characteristic of vulnerability," but the (inaudible) acronym then,
Louise Baxter: the Financial Conduct Authority are saying it's about 49% of
Louise Baxter: us have got a characteristic that points to vulnerability. So
Louise Baxter: people don't know that they're vulnerable at a particular time.
Kate Faulkner: And I'd actually say anybody buying a home is vulnerable because-
Louise Baxter: Yeah, I agree.
Kate Faulkner: ... most people buy, having a baby, getting divorced, getting
Kate Faulkner: married, somebody's died, they're in debt. Those are the-
Louise Baxter: Or they've got an inheritance. And again, that causes vulnerability, a cash influx.
Kate Faulkner: It does. So I think everybody should be treated in that vain. You're absolutely right.
Phil Spencer: Where does neurodivergence sit in all of this?
Louise Baxter: So neurodivergence, it's one in seven of us. So about over
Louise Baxter: 15% of the latest statistics of people that are neurodivergent. So
Louise Baxter: again, there's different ways that can cause vulnerability or not.
Louise Baxter: It depends what you're doing. It depends where you are
Louise Baxter: in your journey of neurodivergence in relation to what's happening,
Louise Baxter: but it can cause situational or marketplace vulnerability, especially in
Louise Baxter: relation to understanding the information that's provided to you. So
Louise Baxter: there's different things that you can do. So for example,
Louise Baxter: if you've got attention deficit, sometimes a very busy website
Louise Baxter: will be so overwhelming, you just can't engage with it.
Louise Baxter: Or if you are on the autistic spectrum, you might
Louise Baxter: need communication in a very literal, direct way. But it's
Louise Baxter: subjective. So with any of this, the vulnerability piece, whether it's neurodivergence,
Louise Baxter: whether it's financial difficulties, lack of language skills, ask that person, "
Louise Baxter: What do you need?" So if you strip it out, " What do
Louise Baxter: you need? How can we help you"-
Phil Spencer: So as a broker listening to this, ask them what they need.
Louise Baxter: I would suggest you should do a bit of learning around
Louise Baxter: what vulnerability looks like so that you might have some
Louise Baxter: pointers around how you would identify it. But the minute
Louise Baxter: you think, " Actually, I'm not sure this person's understanding this
Louise Baxter: information or something I'm not sure about"; " What can we
Louise Baxter: do to help you to ensure that you get what
Louise Baxter: you need from this situation?" And it could be simple
Louise Baxter: things like print it out, let them read it, print
Louise Baxter: it out size 14 font double spacing on the paging
Louise Baxter: so that you can read it easier. Time, do you
Louise Baxter: want to invite somebody with you, a trusted person with
Louise Baxter: you who can then take the information away and then
Louise Baxter: explain it in a way that you can understand?
Phil Spencer: That'd be me.
Louise Baxter: Yeah. Me.
Kate Faulkner: But you know, I think this is really important, because what I'm
Kate Faulkner: quite shocked at is with some of the consumer duty
Kate Faulkner: work that's been happening-
Phil Spencer: Yes. We've talked on this podcast about consumer duty. Surely
Phil Spencer: that's what this is about, isn't it?
Kate Faulkner: Well, it kind of is. And I'm not no expert on
Kate Faulkner: this, but the bit that horrifies me is that you
Kate Faulkner: can do explainers, but you can't give advice. And for
Kate Faulkner: me, if I wanted to change the world tomorrow, which
Kate Faulkner: I do, my big plea is that I want every
Kate Faulkner: first time buyer, before they do anything in the property
Kate Faulkner: space, to go and talk to a broker. Because there's 1.
Kate Faulkner: 2 million moves, as we've mentioned; every single one of
Kate Faulkner: those is different. None of them are same, why they're
Kate Faulkner: buying, why they're selling, the type of property, particularly for
Kate Faulkner: first time buyers. Good brokers are worth their weight in
Kate Faulkner: gold. I don't want them to fill in a calculator. I want
Kate Faulkner: them to go and see a broker, because that's the
Kate Faulkner: person who can hold their hand throughout all of it.
Kate Faulkner: And one that does the amazing work and takes on
Kate Faulkner: board the work that you've done, they can really help
Kate Faulkner: people out because I've done loads of things where I've
Kate Faulkner: been asked, " Oh, Kate, we want to sell properties without
Kate Faulkner: agents," and this. And I've run away from all of
Kate Faulkner: it, because you need a person. You need a face- to-
Kate Faulkner: face, I think, because a calculator tells you nothing, and-
Phil Spencer: Yeah. And we all live in our own unique circumstances
Phil Spencer: in our own situations.
Kate Faulkner: Absolutely. And it's only by sitting with a broker that
Kate Faulkner: you can understand that. And I've just done a remortgage.
Kate Faulkner: And it was weird, because I literally just filled in
Kate Faulkner: a few boxes and it was all done. And I
Kate Faulkner: was more stressed by that than talking to a broker
Kate Faulkner: about it because I couldn't discuss anything.
Phil Spencer: You didn't know if it was the right thing.
Kate Faulkner: I wasn't allowed to, and I hated that. So for me, please, as
Kate Faulkner: a broker or a first time buyer, get together, sit,
Kate Faulkner: whether it's over Zoom or whatever it might be. But
Kate Faulkner: don't do it all online. I think that is really
Kate Faulkner: not the place for the work we do.
Phil Spencer: Louise, has consumer duty changed the conversation when it comes
Phil Spencer: to vulnerability?
Louise Baxter: It has. There's still a way to go, I would
Louise Baxter: say. So it's all about ensuring people get better outcomes,
Louise Baxter: but there's still sometimes a disconnect with what we're saying
Louise Baxter: and what people are actually hearing. I don't think we do enough of
Louise Baxter: checking that people actually understand the information that we've given
Louise Baxter: to them. So from a broker perspective, that would just be, "
Louise Baxter: Can you explain the decision you've just made and why
Louise Baxter: you've made it?" So to the consumer, so if a
Louise Baxter: consumer goes, " I'm going to take that deal or I
Louise Baxter: want that," it's just a case of questioning, " Can you
Louise Baxter: tell me why?" And if that is, " Oh, because this,
Louise Baxter: this and this," you can check their understanding of it
Louise Baxter: to ensure that they get the best outcomes for them
Louise Baxter: personally, because again, we're all going to make different decisions.
Louise Baxter: Like my broker, I dealt with on WhatsApp. We would text all
Louise Baxter: day because I was at work, I didn't have time to
Louise Baxter: talk to him. It also meant I could go back
Louise Baxter: and look at what he'd put so I had time
Louise Baxter: to read it.
Kate Faulkner: Yeah. But at least you had a conversation one- to- one,
Kate Faulkner: and I think that's really what we mustn't lose with
Kate Faulkner: the work that's going on and with the AI and everything.
Kate Faulkner: That one- to- one conversation is so critical.
Phil Spencer: What else needs to change to improve the experience for
Phil Spencer: first time buyers?
Kate Faulkner: So I think a lot of it for me just goes
Kate Faulkner: to real basics. They don't understand the costs and they
Kate Faulkner: don't understand when they have to pay things. Those are
Kate Faulkner: two absolutely critical things. They don't understand the significance of
Kate Faulkner: becoming self- employed and that their change in circumstance will
Kate Faulkner: cause a problem, or indeed, going back to mortgage insurance,
Kate Faulkner: the importance of having things like that. So for me,
Kate Faulkner: it's making sure that they have that broker by their
Kate Faulkner: side from the start. If you can get in with
Kate Faulkner: somebody before they start looking for property, you can help
Kate Faulkner: them. If you appear halfway through, I'm really sorry, we've
Kate Faulkner: lost them. It's about getting them at the start and making sure
Kate Faulkner: that they've understood those costs and when to pay, particularly
Kate Faulkner: because you've got things like lifetime ISAs, help- to- buy ISAs.
Kate Faulkner: There's been some very confusing messaging on those as well.
Kate Faulkner: So for me, life is much more simple, and just
Kate Faulkner: make sure they've got a broker by their side through
Kate Faulkner: WhatsApp or whatever it is, and have that one- to- one conversation.
Phil Spencer: Louise, anything else that needs to happen or is happening?
Louise Baxter: The language needs to be so simplified. You have to
Louise Baxter: imagine that you are talking to somebody that has never
Louise Baxter: done this before, and we are so bad at that. Even things
Louise Baxter: like if you're talking about redemptions, if you went and did a
Louise Baxter: poll outside on the street, most consumers will go, " I
Louise Baxter: don't know what that is. I don't know what a redemption is.
Louise Baxter: Don't know what it is."
Kate Faulkner: (inaudible) really.
Louise Baxter: But again, we have all of this, it's written in ...
Louise Baxter: So even with my mortgage, for example, it came on
Louise Baxter: thin paper, small print that I can't read properly because my eyesight's
Louise Baxter: not particularly good. I don't want to have to take
Louise Baxter: photos of things and then zoom in on them. So it's simplify
Louise Baxter: the language, make it easier to read, so more spacing.
Louise Baxter: It's really simple things: white spacing on pages, dark black
Louise Baxter: font in a font that is really good for people
Louise Baxter: that are dyslexic so that then that you're not having a
Louise Baxter: situation where people aren't able to access it. But also
Louise Baxter: allow that time for questioning as well. So it's be
Louise Baxter: kind, it's ask questions, don't make assumptions about people as
Louise Baxter: well. So if you think somebody's vulnerable, don't treat them
Louise Baxter: like they're vulnerable. It's disempowering. So empathy. If you can't
Louise Baxter: empathize, sympathize. And have those really open conversations where if
Louise Baxter: you're with a broker, you cultivate that relationship that no
Louise Baxter: question I ask is stupid. That's what ... I mean-
Kate Faulkner: It's a nice way of putting it.
Phil Spencer: Yes. How many times have I spoken to my broker and go, " Sorry about the
Phil Spencer: silly question, but" ... And I work in the world, but I've still got silly questions. Yeah.
Louise Baxter: Yeah, and you will, because-
Phil Spencer: But she says it's not a silly question (inaudible) -
Louise Baxter: No question's silly. That's the thing, isn't it?
Kate Faulkner: But also, everything changes so often in our world. The
Kate Faulkner: way you bought a home last year isn't the same
Kate Faulkner: way you buy it this year; stamp duty changes, all
Kate Faulkner: of those things that we've mentioned before. There's a lot of external
Kate Faulkner: factors that influence how you buy and sell a home
Kate Faulkner: that the industry has no control over; interest rates, as
Kate Faulkner: you mentioned. And I think that's quite hard. And we
Kate Faulkner: understand the implications of it, but I think we have
Kate Faulkner: to know that, again, every time everybody moves, it's different.
Kate Faulkner: And you can move five years ago; it doesn't mean
Kate Faulkner: you'll understand how to move now.
Louise Baxter: Absolutely.
Kate Faulkner: And there are changes afoot, so that's really good. So
Kate Faulkner: we have some really exciting time-
Phil Spencer: Sure. And there's more coming.
Kate Faulkner: More coming. Yes. I couldn't be more excited.
Louise Baxter: I think if you were to treat everybody as if they were vulnerable,
Louise Baxter: which they are, which we've said when they're buying a house,
Louise Baxter: you'll design an inclusive service, which everyone will benefit from.
Kate Faulkner: Love that. Really love that.
Louise Baxter: So things like the Amazon Alexas, for example, they were designed
Louise Baxter: with vulnerability at the start of that journey. Everybody benefits
Louise Baxter: from having some sort of device like that in a house
Louise Baxter: now. Zebra crossings, drop curbs. A bendy straw was designed
Louise Baxter: for people in hospital to be able to drink. Who
Louise Baxter: doesn't like a bendy straw? It's these sort of inclusive
Louise Baxter: service provision things. If we start at the beginning of
Louise Baxter: our journey thinking, " Right, everyone we deal with is vulnerable
Louise Baxter: or potentially vulnerable," we will build it so that we'll
Louise Baxter: all go, " That was easy. I understood that."
Phil Spencer: Yes. And it is only when somebody understands ... particularly, I mean,
Phil Spencer: the process of buying a house is complicated enough, but
Phil Spencer: the financial implications of buying a house. It is only
Phil Spencer: when people understand it properly that they're in a better
Phil Spencer: position to negotiate a better house price, they're in a
Phil Spencer: better position to negotiate a better mortgage deal and lower
Phil Spencer: interest rates if they understand what they need to do
Phil Spencer: in order to pull that off. So it is absolutely
Phil Spencer: crucial. So brokers are often the key people that buyers
Phil Spencer: have a relationship hopefully through the whole process. And their
Phil Spencer: role is absolutely pivotal, particularly for first time buyers. How
Phil Spencer: do you think they can help buyers understand the process
Phil Spencer: and also some of the language?
Louise Baxter: I think you have your key information document. I think there's
Louise Baxter: one of those where you either simplify the language completely,
Louise Baxter: but that's living in a utopia that's not going to
Louise Baxter: happen. People are going to still use complicated language. But
Louise Baxter: you can have an explanation sheet of all the important
Louise Baxter: bits that you need to understand, which in my opinion,
Louise Baxter: should be given to consumers at every touchpoint. So not
Louise Baxter: just once. We give the information to them more than
Louise Baxter: once to check their understanding. We also give it to
Louise Baxter: them in different formats. Do you need it in a
Louise Baxter: text message? Do you need it in a WhatsApp? Do you need it written down? Do you
Louise Baxter: need it printed? Do you need me to have a face- to-
Louise Baxter: face with you? Like you've said, some people prefer that
Louise Baxter: sort of communication. So tailor your communication to the consumer,
Louise Baxter: but make sure that they get that information on more
Louise Baxter: than one occasion as well.
Phil Spencer: And that they understand it.
Louise Baxter: And that they understand it.
Phil Spencer: Kate, any thoughts from you just to finish off with?
Kate Faulkner: Yeah. So I think for me, it's about making sure that as a
Kate Faulkner: mortgage broker, you don't stay in your office because that's
Kate Faulkner: where first time buyers aren't living. So I'd be out
Kate Faulkner: at shopping centers, sitting there, " Have you got some questions,"
Kate Faulkner: whatever it might be. And also you can do things
Kate Faulkner: like who are the biggest employers in your area? It
Kate Faulkner: might be the NHS. It might be Experian or something,
Kate Faulkner: big Barclays indeed. And make sure that you're going into
Kate Faulkner: those offices and offering them help because as it's one
Kate Faulkner: of the most stressful events, if you can take away
Kate Faulkner: that stress, then it's not going to affect their day
Kate Faulkner: job. So I think that's important. The second thing is,
Kate Faulkner: one of the things we're doing on the council is
Kate Faulkner: we're starting to prepare now consumer education, everything from start
Kate Faulkner: to finish of the buying and selling process, but it's cross
Kate Faulkner: communication that's all been signed off from everybody from lender
Kate Faulkner: through to removal. So how to move by 1: 00
Kate Faulkner: PM, how to deal with fraud, which I'll now check
Kate Faulkner: with you if that's right.
Louise Baxter: Yeah, of course.
Kate Faulkner: So what we want to do is we want to
Kate Faulkner: make sure that, exactly as you said, they go to an
Kate Faulkner: agent, they get the same information bit by leaflet, however
Kate Faulkner: they want to receive it. They then go to the
Kate Faulkner: conveyancing lawyer, they get the same information. So we have
Kate Faulkner: to, as an industry, even though we're very siloed in
Kate Faulkner: our different sectors, we have to share consumer information and
Kate Faulkner: make sure that we all agree to say the same
Kate Faulkner: thing, because that can cause a lot of confusion. So
Kate Faulkner: any broker that wants to get involved, we'd love to
Kate Faulkner: have you, and that's what we're hoping to make the
Kate Faulkner: difference this year, is get some key information out and
Kate Faulkner: all work together to be saying the same things, same
Kate Faulkner: information, whatever format it may be in. If we can achieve that, wow,
Kate Faulkner: what a difference it'll make.
Phil Spencer: Are there things that you're seeing brokers do that are
Phil Spencer: innovative that are sort of changing it up, or any thoughts,
Phil Spencer: suggestions on what they might do?
Kate Faulkner: Well, I do a lot of shows, things we used
Kate Faulkner: to do them before the pandemic, and I think that's
Kate Faulkner: a great way to reach people.
Phil Spencer: As in a roadshow, or ...
Kate Faulkner: Well, you go to first time buyer shows or you can do
Kate Faulkner: your own show. So if you've got a reasonable broker
Kate Faulkner: office or if you work with agents, just doing small
Kate Faulkner: evenings. We've done that a lot where you might only
Kate Faulkner: get 10 people around the table. But the lovely thing
Kate Faulkner: about our industry, if you get 10 people around a table and they
Kate Faulkner: get a good experience, they're going to tell another 100. So
Kate Faulkner: you start, and you can start with small groups and
Kate Faulkner: then you can build them bigger. But that for me
Kate Faulkner: is the thing that I love, is when I go
Kate Faulkner: out and about and I go to shows or I
Kate Faulkner: go to events for first time buyers, and there the
Kate Faulkner: brokers are. And they're talking about it and they're explaining
Kate Faulkner: things ideally before people move. That's what we've got to
Kate Faulkner: get good at, is don't wait until they want to
Kate Faulkner: move, because actually, you might need to speak to them
Kate Faulkner: three years beforehand. And those are the ones that I
Kate Faulkner: think do the best and get the best customers, because
Kate Faulkner: you've already trained them before they turn up at your
Kate Faulkner: door with the property.
Louise Baxter: I really liked what you said about telling stories-
Kate Faulkner: A story's good, every time.
Louise Baxter: Because it makes it relatable every time and relevant and
Louise Baxter: memorable. So I'll remember that story. So it's memorable, which
Louise Baxter: makes it relevant to our lives rather than something that's
Louise Baxter: beyond us that we don't currently need to know.
Phil Spencer: In a similar vein, I talk about making decisions in
Phil Spencer: the heat of battle. The heat of battle when you're
Phil Spencer: house hunting, is you found a house and you're negotiating
Phil Spencer: a price and you're right involved in it. Last thing you
Phil Spencer: want to do then is start understanding a mortgage and
Phil Spencer: making those decisions.
Kate Faulkner: 100%, yeah.
Phil Spencer: You want to have done that months before in a really calm, quiet,
Phil Spencer: considered way.
Louise Baxter: So the work that I do in fraud, it's called a hot
Louise Baxter: state. So the criminals are really ... and I'm not saying it's the
Louise Baxter: same, but it's a very similar state. You get pushed into
Louise Baxter: a position where there's scarcity, you've got to make a
Louise Baxter: decision quickly. You're in a high pressure situation. So if
Louise Baxter: you get somebody contacting you, a criminal who's trying to
Louise Baxter: say that they're your bank, for example, who's an imposter
Louise Baxter: fraud, they will be like, " Your account's been hijacked. We
Louise Baxter: need to move your money quickly."
Kate Faulkner: (inaudible) yeah.
Louise Baxter: So when you're buying a house, you're pushed into a
Louise Baxter: similar mental health state. So it's a hot state because
Louise Baxter: you've got to move quick or you might lose that
Louise Baxter: particular house: " Oh, we need to lock that mortgage in
Louise Baxter: before the interest rates are relooked at next month." So
Louise Baxter: there's all of these things, which means our decision- making
Louise Baxter: may not be as objective or as sound as if
Louise Baxter: we can have a moment to consider the information and
Louise Baxter: understand it all properly. So like you say, mortgage before you
Louise Baxter: are in that hot state.
Phil Spencer: Coming back to Kate's point, yeah. Get onto your broker nice and early.
Kate Faulkner: Absolutely. And if you've got that relationship, the first person you should call hopefully
Kate Faulkner: when you're being pushed into something or feel under pressure
Kate Faulkner: is the broker. And whenever I talk to people, I'm
Kate Faulkner: just like, " Hold." Never make an offer when you're panicked.
Louise Baxter: Yeah, take a breath.
Kate Faulkner: Take a breath. Don't care what anybody's telling you, because
Kate Faulkner: just know over time, if it's the right property, you'll
Kate Faulkner: get it. So step back.
Phil Spencer: You heard it here first.
Kate Faulkner: Absolutely.
Phil Spencer: Thank you both so much. An exciting year ahead. Lots to achieve.
Kate Faulkner: It is. Well, thanks for having us.
Louise Baxter: Thanks for having me.
Phil Spencer: That was Louise Baxter, consumer champion and co- CEO of
Phil Spencer: Consumer Friend, and Kate Faulkner, who's chair of the Home
Phil Spencer: Buying and Selling Council and founder of propertychecklists. co. uk.
Phil Spencer: Just to point out, we're recording this on the 2nd of
Phil Spencer: February 2026. The views expressed by myself and external guests
Phil Spencer: are not necessarily the views of Barclays. Thanks for listening
Phil Spencer: to Mortgage Insider from Barclays. I'm Phil Spencer. If you're
Phil Spencer: listening to the podcast, you can now watch the video
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Phil Spencer: app. Join us again next month. Hope to see you then.