1 00:00:02,910 --> 00:00:06,510 Phil Spencer: Hello, this is Mortgage Insider from Barclays, the one- stop 2 00:00:06,510 --> 00:00:08,910 Phil Spencer: shop for mortgage brokers and everything you need to know 3 00:00:08,910 --> 00:00:13,170 Phil Spencer: about the housing market. I'm Phil Spencer, property expert and 4 00:00:13,170 --> 00:00:19,829 Phil Spencer: sometime TV presenter. Overwhelming and confusing: apparently that's the experience for 5 00:00:19,829 --> 00:00:22,170 Phil Spencer: many first time buyers in the UK. And then you 6 00:00:22,170 --> 00:00:27,150 Phil Spencer: factor in complications like dyslexia or poor financial literacy, and 7 00:00:27,150 --> 00:00:31,080 Phil Spencer: it becomes even harder. So today we're looking at how 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,990 Phil Spencer: the process of buying a house can be made easier 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,900 Phil Spencer: for first time buyers. In order to do that, I've 10 00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:39,060 Phil Spencer: been joined by two people who have a ton of 11 00:00:39,060 --> 00:00:43,800 Phil Spencer: experience and thoughts on the topic. Louise Baxter, MBE. Louise 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,970 Phil Spencer: is a consumer champion, the co- CEO of Consumer Friend, 13 00:00:48,210 --> 00:00:50,670 Phil Spencer: and she sits on the board of several property- related 14 00:00:50,670 --> 00:00:56,100 Phil Spencer: organizations. Also with Kate Faulkner, OBE, chair of the Home 15 00:00:56,100 --> 00:01:01,710 Phil Spencer: Buying and Selling Council and founder of propertychecklists. co. uk. 16 00:01:01,860 --> 00:01:04,050 Phil Spencer: Great to have you both. Thank you for coming. Kate, 17 00:01:04,050 --> 00:01:07,530 Phil Spencer: Louise, excellent. I'm so pleased you've come on. And we 18 00:01:07,530 --> 00:01:11,520 Phil Spencer: should also have a little moment to recognize an OBE and an MBE, 19 00:01:11,610 --> 00:01:15,840 Phil Spencer: because I joined your illustrious brigade this year. 20 00:01:16,410 --> 00:01:16,561 Kate Faulkner: You did. Congratulations. 21 00:01:16,561 --> 00:01:18,030 Louise Baxter: Congratulations. 22 00:01:18,030 --> 00:01:18,031 Phil Spencer: Thank you. 23 00:01:18,030 --> 00:01:21,002 Kate Faulkner: Were you surprised? I must have (inaudible) - 24 00:01:21,060 --> 00:01:21,151 Phil Spencer: I was. 25 00:01:21,151 --> 00:01:22,770 Kate Faulkner: ... I was convinced it was a scam. 26 00:01:23,220 --> 00:01:24,810 Phil Spencer: Oh, you could have put me up off the ceiling 27 00:01:24,810 --> 00:01:25,650 Phil Spencer: for about a week. Yeah. I had absolutely no idea. 28 00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:28,021 Kate Faulkner: Yeah. It was- 29 00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:30,929 Louise Baxter: It's keeping it a secret that's hard, that I found really 30 00:01:30,929 --> 00:01:32,370 Louise Baxter: hard. I wanted to tell everyone straightaway. 31 00:01:32,610 --> 00:01:36,870 Kate Faulkner: I was so stressed about it. Honestly, I still didn't believe 32 00:01:36,870 --> 00:01:41,101 Kate Faulkner: it until my local radio announced it on that Friday night. 33 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:41,101 Phil Spencer: I was exactly the same. 34 00:01:41,101 --> 00:01:43,890 Kate Faulkner: And I wouldn't let anybody know. I was in a 35 00:01:43,890 --> 00:01:47,430 Kate Faulkner: terrible state. But after that, it's all enjoyable. 36 00:01:47,610 --> 00:01:54,180 Phil Spencer: Yes. Yes. If we can both just start by explaining 37 00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:55,860 Phil Spencer: a little bit about what you do. Louise, you do 38 00:01:55,860 --> 00:01:56,641 Phil Spencer: hundreds of different things, I know, but ... 39 00:01:56,641 --> 00:01:56,880 Kate Faulkner: How long have we got? 40 00:01:59,550 --> 00:02:03,000 Louise Baxter: I try and make consumer issues easier for people to 41 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,240 Louise Baxter: understand. So I do lots of different roles, but trying to 42 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,720 Louise Baxter: make what is very complicated markets a bit more inclusive 43 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,570 Louise Baxter: and easier for consumers to understand. I'm a bit of 44 00:02:12,570 --> 00:02:14,910 Louise Baxter: a law geek, but I can tend to try and 45 00:02:14,910 --> 00:02:18,030 Louise Baxter: make that a bit easier for an average consumer to understand. 46 00:02:18,060 --> 00:02:19,169 Phil Spencer: Okay. Well, I hope you manage it today. And Kate? 47 00:02:20,940 --> 00:02:24,600 Kate Faulkner: So all I've ever wanted to do is to help 48 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,660 Kate Faulkner: people carry out property projects, bit of buying and selling, self- 49 00:02:27,660 --> 00:02:29,880 Kate Faulkner: build, whatever it is. So I've built a whole business 50 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,210 Kate Faulkner: around consumer education. But the hat I wear today is 51 00:02:33,210 --> 00:02:35,520 Kate Faulkner: one of my real passions is I believe we can 52 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,739 Kate Faulkner: buy and sell a lot better than we do now. 53 00:02:38,190 --> 00:02:38,491 Phil Spencer: Wouldn't that be nice? 54 00:02:38,491 --> 00:02:42,120 Kate Faulkner: It would be. We're getting there. And really, this is the year. 55 00:02:42,450 --> 00:02:45,990 Kate Faulkner: So I've set up a voluntary organization. We now have 56 00:02:45,990 --> 00:02:49,230 Kate Faulkner: 200 people. We work very closely with MHEOG, who've been 57 00:02:49,230 --> 00:02:50,760 Kate Faulkner: very good and very supportive of a lot of the 58 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,700 Kate Faulkner: work we've done. And chair of the Home Buying and 59 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:57,299 Kate Faulkner: Selling Council. And everything we do is about just making 60 00:02:57,300 --> 00:03:00,929 Kate Faulkner: it better. But not just actually for buyers and sellers; 61 00:03:00,990 --> 00:03:03,600 Kate Faulkner: it's actually a really hard thing to do if you're 62 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,080 Kate Faulkner: an agent, a conveyancing lawyer. It doesn't matter. It's actually 63 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,870 Kate Faulkner: a really difficult process for the industry, as much deed 64 00:03:09,870 --> 00:03:14,130 Kate Faulkner: brokers, as it is for consumers. So we think we 65 00:03:14,130 --> 00:03:15,600 Kate Faulkner: have the way of fixing it for all. 66 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:21,239 Phil Spencer: We're going to talk about material information, but we're focusing 67 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,650 Phil Spencer: on first time buyers. And I'm keen to hear your 68 00:03:25,650 --> 00:03:29,821 Phil Spencer: thoughts on the experience that first time buyers are going through at the moment. What would you say, Louise? 69 00:03:29,821 --> 00:03:36,270 Louise Baxter: If we strip it out at the moment, I've never seen a world where there's 70 00:03:36,270 --> 00:03:40,800 Louise Baxter: so much consumer vulnerability. And when I talk about vulnerability 71 00:03:41,310 --> 00:03:44,220 Louise Baxter: from a consumer perspective, we never like to label people 72 00:03:44,220 --> 00:03:48,360 Louise Baxter: as vulnerable, because it's very disempowering. So consumer vulnerability is caused 73 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,820 Louise Baxter: by the situation that's going on around you, which could 74 00:03:50,820 --> 00:03:53,820 Louise Baxter: be buying the house, and the marketplace that they're potentially 75 00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:56,400 Louise Baxter: trying to engage with. So if you think about first 76 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,240 Louise Baxter: time buyers, you've got the financial pressure, the jargon, the 77 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,930 Louise Baxter: assumed knowledge, the dealing with an estate agent, a mortgage 78 00:04:03,930 --> 00:04:06,630 Louise Baxter: broker, lender, all these different people. 79 00:04:06,630 --> 00:04:08,610 Phil Spencer: That they've never done before. 80 00:04:08,610 --> 00:04:12,210 Louise Baxter: Never done it before. We're not taught financial literacy in a 81 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,150 Louise Baxter: school setting anymore because the national curriculum is too packed. 82 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,630 Louise Baxter: So unless your parents have passed that knowledge onto you, 83 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,300 Louise Baxter: this is the first time you've done it. So the 84 00:04:21,300 --> 00:04:24,779 Louise Baxter: increased stress levels and the marketplace cause quite a storm 85 00:04:24,779 --> 00:04:28,740 Louise Baxter: of vulnerability, which means people aren't always able to objectively 86 00:04:28,980 --> 00:04:32,820 Louise Baxter: make decisions or actually truly understand the decisions that they're 87 00:04:32,820 --> 00:04:35,370 Louise Baxter: trying to make, which means they may not always get 88 00:04:35,370 --> 00:04:36,270 Louise Baxter: the best outcomes. 89 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:41,820 Phil Spencer: So it's not just the challenges around affordability and deposits 90 00:04:41,820 --> 00:04:45,480 Phil Spencer: and cost of living and rent and stamp duty; it's 91 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,360 Phil Spencer: also understanding the process. Is that what you're saying? 92 00:04:48,570 --> 00:04:51,330 Louise Baxter: When you work in an industry, we have a lot of 93 00:04:51,330 --> 00:04:54,300 Louise Baxter: assumed knowledge. So then trying to communicate with somebody that 94 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:58,050 Louise Baxter: doesn't work in your industry, when you spend probably 80% 95 00:04:58,050 --> 00:05:01,680 Louise Baxter: of your time with those other people, you can't strip 96 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,169 Louise Baxter: it out. People don't ... The average reading age of a 97 00:05:04,170 --> 00:05:06,960 Louise Baxter: UK consumer, a UK adult, is between nine and 12. 98 00:05:07,380 --> 00:05:10,169 Louise Baxter: There's 7. 1 million adults with a reading age of 99 00:05:10,170 --> 00:05:14,760 Louise Baxter: nine or below. So we've got this terrible habit of 100 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,099 Louise Baxter: being British and thinking if we speak in really big 101 00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:20,400 Louise Baxter: words, we sound really intelligent, and all we're doing is 102 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,640 Louise Baxter: blocking out half the room. And again, being British, we 103 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,160 Louise Baxter: don't go, " What does that mean? I don't understand that," 104 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,770 Louise Baxter: because we don't want to highlight ourselves as being stupid 105 00:05:28,770 --> 00:05:32,159 Louise Baxter: or less than the person sitting next to us. So 106 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:33,450 Louise Baxter: it's not inclusive. 107 00:05:33,570 --> 00:05:37,860 Phil Spencer: So are you saying that actually language is one of the biggest barriers? 108 00:05:37,950 --> 00:05:39,900 Louise Baxter: We should speak in plain English. So we shouldn't write 109 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:42,060 Louise Baxter: in things like more than 25 words in a sentence. 110 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,089 Louise Baxter: We should use the common words. We should write in 111 00:05:45,089 --> 00:05:48,120 Louise Baxter: the active voice, not the passive voice. And we should 112 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:52,050 Louise Baxter: write for nine- year- olds and then everybody will benefit 113 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:54,390 Louise Baxter: from it, because we'll all understand it, even if we've 114 00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:56,339 Louise Baxter: got a higher reading age than a nine- year- old. 115 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,840 Phil Spencer: You talked about financial literacy and the fact that that 116 00:06:01,050 --> 00:06:04,800 Phil Spencer: is a life skill and it's not taught in schools. Although I 117 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,320 Phil Spencer: did read recently, it is set to be taught in 118 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:08,700 Phil Spencer: schools in a couple of years' time. Is that right? 119 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,500 Louise Baxter: Media literacy and consumer literacy is coming in from OFCOM. 120 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:16,800 Louise Baxter: So they are (inaudible) more critical thinking because we're 121 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,730 Louise Baxter: seeing a lot of disinformation and misinformation from a scams 122 00:06:20,730 --> 00:06:23,580 Louise Baxter: perspective and a social media perspective. So it's fake news, 123 00:06:23,580 --> 00:06:25,950 Louise Baxter: try and work out what's real and what's not. So 124 00:06:25,950 --> 00:06:27,180 Louise Baxter: that will come in hopefully, yeah. 125 00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:31,860 Phil Spencer: So how do and how can first time buyers understand ... 126 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,210 Phil Spencer: I mean, the finances are particularly important because if you 127 00:06:36,390 --> 00:06:38,219 Phil Spencer: pick the wrong mortgage or you don't understand what you're 128 00:06:38,220 --> 00:06:40,529 Phil Spencer: getting in, getting yourself in for at the beginning, you're in 129 00:06:40,529 --> 00:06:42,960 Phil Spencer: a whole pile of trouble. How can they help? 130 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:45,779 Kate Faulkner: So the way I've always worked, because I've represented lots 131 00:06:45,779 --> 00:06:49,890 Kate Faulkner: of first time buyers, and they really don't understand a 132 00:06:49,890 --> 00:06:51,360 Kate Faulkner: lot of it. But actually, I think a lot of 133 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,630 Kate Faulkner: it's our fault. We don't, as an industry ... so you've 134 00:06:54,630 --> 00:06:58,980 Kate Faulkner: got lenders, then you've got agents. And everybody says something 135 00:06:58,980 --> 00:07:01,589 Kate Faulkner: different. And in the old days, as a first time buyer, 136 00:07:01,589 --> 00:07:03,660 Kate Faulkner: you'd go to an agent, you'd go to 10 agents, 137 00:07:03,660 --> 00:07:05,609 Kate Faulkner: you'd talk about a property, and two or three of 138 00:07:05,610 --> 00:07:08,610 Kate Faulkner: them would teach you some stuff, and you'd naturally absorb 139 00:07:08,610 --> 00:07:10,920 Kate Faulkner: something. But now they go online and find a property. 140 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,370 Kate Faulkner: And I think that's a bit of a disastrous start. 141 00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:17,280 Kate Faulkner: What we really need to be doing is ... the way 142 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,470 Kate Faulkner: I communicate with them is I tell them stories. So 143 00:07:19,470 --> 00:07:22,020 Kate Faulkner: if you want them to understand mortgage insurance, which I 144 00:07:22,020 --> 00:07:25,440 Kate Faulkner: think should be compulsory, as the same if you're renting, 145 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:27,540 Kate Faulkner: what you do is you explain to them about the 146 00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:31,530 Kate Faulkner: couple that bought a property. When they were moving in, 147 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,370 Kate Faulkner: it was flat on a first floor, carrying the sofa up, 148 00:07:36,510 --> 00:07:41,250 Kate Faulkner: sofa fell back, Chap fell back, broke his back, in 149 00:07:41,250 --> 00:07:42,570 Kate Faulkner: hospital for six months. 150 00:07:43,740 --> 00:07:44,041 Phil Spencer: Couldn't work. 151 00:07:44,041 --> 00:07:47,430 Kate Faulkner: Couldn't work, but how wonderful: the broker had organized the mortgage 152 00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:51,450 Kate Faulkner: insurance and they were saved. They will never forget how 153 00:07:51,450 --> 00:07:54,870 Kate Faulkner: important mortgage insurance is. So you do it with stories. 154 00:07:55,140 --> 00:07:56,760 Kate Faulkner: But I think there's two things as well to bear 155 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:58,830 Kate Faulkner: in mind with first time buyers, is that there's a 156 00:07:58,830 --> 00:08:02,460 Kate Faulkner: whole load of people that could buy who don't because 157 00:08:02,460 --> 00:08:04,260 Kate Faulkner: we tell them every single day in the news, you 158 00:08:04,260 --> 00:08:07,860 Kate Faulkner: can't afford to. It's impossible. And I hate that. It's 159 00:08:07,860 --> 00:08:10,590 Kate Faulkner: my pet hate that I want to get rid of. And then 160 00:08:10,590 --> 00:08:12,690 Kate Faulkner: for those that ignore all of those, when they come 161 00:08:12,690 --> 00:08:16,500 Kate Faulkner: in, we're not showing them case studies. We're not showing 162 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:20,070 Kate Faulkner: them of the successful people. We move 1. 2 million 163 00:08:20,190 --> 00:08:24,510 Kate Faulkner: households a year, or houses get traded between sellers and 164 00:08:24,540 --> 00:08:30,480 Kate Faulkner: buyers. And 350 of those are first time buyers. So there's loads 165 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:31,801 Kate Faulkner: of first time buyers. They're the biggest parts of the market. 166 00:08:31,801 --> 00:08:32,700 Phil Spencer: Are they really? The biggest part of the market? 167 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:35,280 Kate Faulkner: Yeah, effectively. 168 00:08:35,580 --> 00:08:37,261 Phil Spencer: Because they are such an important part of the market. 169 00:08:37,261 --> 00:08:37,381 Kate Faulkner: Huge. 170 00:08:37,890 --> 00:08:39,750 Phil Spencer: If we don't have first time buyers, the whole thing 171 00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:40,500 Phil Spencer: grounds to a halt. 172 00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:44,850 Kate Faulkner: Well, slightly interesting, that used to happen. But if you think 173 00:08:44,850 --> 00:08:49,710 Kate Faulkner: of the nature of our population now, we're aging. So 174 00:08:49,710 --> 00:08:52,590 Kate Faulkner: what we saw through the pandemic was first time buyers 175 00:08:52,590 --> 00:08:54,540 Kate Faulkner: were struggling more to get on the market to start 176 00:08:54,540 --> 00:08:58,829 Kate Faulkner: off with, but then you had second steppers and people 177 00:08:58,830 --> 00:09:02,099 Kate Faulkner: trading down swapping with each other. But having said that, 178 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:05,429 Kate Faulkner: so weirdly, that's why the market grew when nobody thought 179 00:09:05,429 --> 00:09:07,949 Kate Faulkner: it would do, because we'd lose the first time buyers. 180 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,470 Kate Faulkner: But again, first time buyers stayed in because we have 181 00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:13,470 Kate Faulkner: new rules, which turned out to be quite useful, where 182 00:09:13,470 --> 00:09:16,260 Kate Faulkner: they're assessed at a higher rate and they're on repayment 183 00:09:16,260 --> 00:09:18,809 Kate Faulkner: mortgages. So that's why we didn't have a crash in 184 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:23,579 Kate Faulkner: 2022 when we would've done normally. But they are still 185 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:26,579 Kate Faulkner: a massive part of the market. And it's important that 186 00:09:26,730 --> 00:09:30,570 Kate Faulkner: people get on the ladder, but we don't do enough to 187 00:09:30,570 --> 00:09:31,050 Kate Faulkner: get them on. 188 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:34,230 Phil Spencer: You're so right. The media is full of the stories 189 00:09:34,230 --> 00:09:36,750 Phil Spencer: of how hard and tragic, and that's- 190 00:09:37,170 --> 00:09:40,140 Kate Faulkner: Yeah. Well, you'll be asked the same, the amount of 191 00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:42,690 Kate Faulkner: times you do a London interview and they're like, " Well, 192 00:09:42,690 --> 00:09:45,719 Kate Faulkner: it's half a million to buy property." And I go, " Well, clearly 193 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,040 Kate Faulkner: it isn't. And these are all the properties you can 194 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:55,140 Kate Faulkner: get under 250,000." That's what we should all rally behind, 195 00:09:55,740 --> 00:09:57,540 Kate Faulkner: and then we can get people on the ladder. 196 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,660 Phil Spencer: As Louise says, if they don't understand the process and 197 00:10:00,660 --> 00:10:03,660 Phil Spencer: it's a bit scary and overwhelming, they don't understand the 198 00:10:03,660 --> 00:10:06,840 Phil Spencer: language or there's not people there to help, then the 199 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,121 Phil Spencer: temptation is to sit back and not tackle it. 200 00:10:09,121 --> 00:10:11,040 Louise Baxter: It's interest rates as well. So there's a lot of 201 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:16,500 Louise Baxter: fear factor around interest rates and the uncertainty. And the average consumer 202 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,191 Louise Baxter: won't understand what interest rates are. 203 00:10:20,191 --> 00:10:20,002 Kate Faulkner: Absolutely (inaudible) . 204 00:10:20,002 --> 00:10:23,250 Louise Baxter: I know, exactly. So there's other things like the plain 205 00:10:23,250 --> 00:10:26,370 Louise Baxter: numbers principle. So rather than writing, " It's going to be 206 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,190 Louise Baxter: a 4% interest rate," et cetera, et cetera, expect somebody 207 00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:31,740 Louise Baxter: to work that out, go, " Right, if you borrow £ 100, you're going to 208 00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:34,650 Louise Baxter: pay £ 4 back in a year." Just make it really 209 00:10:34,650 --> 00:10:39,690 Louise Baxter: simple. We over complicate everything. We use too many acronyms- 210 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:39,991 Kate Faulkner: (inaudible) yes. 211 00:10:39,991 --> 00:10:44,130 Louise Baxter: ... especially industry acronyms all of the time. And in 212 00:10:44,130 --> 00:10:46,559 Louise Baxter: my other job, I work dealing with fraud. And the 213 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,900 Louise Baxter: acronyms in that, I go in, I'm like, " What's just 214 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:55,260 Louise Baxter: happened?" And I know the subject, I know the subject. So again, 215 00:10:55,620 --> 00:10:59,550 Louise Baxter: we're expecting people to identify themselves as not understanding, but 216 00:10:59,550 --> 00:11:02,969 Louise Baxter: also with vulnerability, if people are vulnerable, they might not 217 00:11:02,970 --> 00:11:06,540 Louise Baxter: know at that time, or they wouldn't want to ever admit 218 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,190 Louise Baxter: that vulnerability, which is the other thing. 219 00:11:08,190 --> 00:11:09,510 Kate Faulkner: I think that's a really important point. 220 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:12,480 Louise Baxter: I think it's 17% of people would say, " I've got 221 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,959 Louise Baxter: a characteristic of vulnerability," but the (inaudible) acronym then, 222 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:21,569 Louise Baxter: the Financial Conduct Authority are saying it's about 49% of 223 00:11:21,570 --> 00:11:25,050 Louise Baxter: us have got a characteristic that points to vulnerability. So 224 00:11:25,290 --> 00:11:26,280 Louise Baxter: people don't know that they're vulnerable at a particular time. 225 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,131 Kate Faulkner: And I'd actually say anybody buying a home is vulnerable because- 226 00:11:29,131 --> 00:11:30,059 Louise Baxter: Yeah, I agree. 227 00:11:30,059 --> 00:11:32,790 Kate Faulkner: ... most people buy, having a baby, getting divorced, getting 228 00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:34,920 Kate Faulkner: married, somebody's died, they're in debt. Those are the- 229 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,880 Louise Baxter: Or they've got an inheritance. And again, that causes vulnerability, a cash influx. 230 00:11:41,370 --> 00:11:43,170 Kate Faulkner: It does. So I think everybody should be treated in that vain. You're absolutely right. 231 00:11:43,170 --> 00:11:45,809 Phil Spencer: Where does neurodivergence sit in all of this? 232 00:11:46,020 --> 00:11:50,700 Louise Baxter: So neurodivergence, it's one in seven of us. So about over 233 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:55,620 Louise Baxter: 15% of the latest statistics of people that are neurodivergent. So 234 00:11:55,620 --> 00:11:58,380 Louise Baxter: again, there's different ways that can cause vulnerability or not. 235 00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:00,720 Louise Baxter: It depends what you're doing. It depends where you are 236 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,420 Louise Baxter: in your journey of neurodivergence in relation to what's happening, 237 00:12:03,690 --> 00:12:09,420 Louise Baxter: but it can cause situational or marketplace vulnerability, especially in 238 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:13,380 Louise Baxter: relation to understanding the information that's provided to you. So 239 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:15,420 Louise Baxter: there's different things that you can do. So for example, 240 00:12:15,420 --> 00:12:18,929 Louise Baxter: if you've got attention deficit, sometimes a very busy website 241 00:12:18,929 --> 00:12:21,150 Louise Baxter: will be so overwhelming, you just can't engage with it. 242 00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:25,080 Louise Baxter: Or if you are on the autistic spectrum, you might 243 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,460 Louise Baxter: need communication in a very literal, direct way. But it's 244 00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:35,070 Louise Baxter: subjective. So with any of this, the vulnerability piece, whether it's neurodivergence, 245 00:12:35,070 --> 00:12:40,920 Louise Baxter: whether it's financial difficulties, lack of language skills, ask that person, " 246 00:12:41,100 --> 00:12:43,440 Louise Baxter: What do you need?" So if you strip it out, " What do 247 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:44,488 Louise Baxter: you need? How can we help you"- 248 00:12:44,489 --> 00:12:45,271 Phil Spencer: So as a broker listening to this, ask them what they need. 249 00:12:45,271 --> 00:12:50,219 Louise Baxter: I would suggest you should do a bit of learning around 250 00:12:50,220 --> 00:12:52,950 Louise Baxter: what vulnerability looks like so that you might have some 251 00:12:53,010 --> 00:12:56,850 Louise Baxter: pointers around how you would identify it. But the minute 252 00:12:56,850 --> 00:12:59,189 Louise Baxter: you think, " Actually, I'm not sure this person's understanding this 253 00:12:59,190 --> 00:13:02,970 Louise Baxter: information or something I'm not sure about"; " What can we 254 00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:05,070 Louise Baxter: do to help you to ensure that you get what 255 00:13:05,070 --> 00:13:08,100 Louise Baxter: you need from this situation?" And it could be simple 256 00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:10,679 Louise Baxter: things like print it out, let them read it, print 257 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,350 Louise Baxter: it out size 14 font double spacing on the paging 258 00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:15,900 Louise Baxter: so that you can read it easier. Time, do you 259 00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,000 Louise Baxter: want to invite somebody with you, a trusted person with 260 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,160 Louise Baxter: you who can then take the information away and then 261 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,050 Louise Baxter: explain it in a way that you can understand? 262 00:13:22,050 --> 00:13:22,800 Phil Spencer: That'd be me. 263 00:13:22,979 --> 00:13:22,980 Louise Baxter: Yeah. Me. 264 00:13:22,980 --> 00:13:27,120 Kate Faulkner: But you know, I think this is really important, because what I'm 265 00:13:27,450 --> 00:13:30,630 Kate Faulkner: quite shocked at is with some of the consumer duty 266 00:13:30,630 --> 00:13:31,800 Kate Faulkner: work that's been happening- 267 00:13:31,830 --> 00:13:34,950 Phil Spencer: Yes. We've talked on this podcast about consumer duty. Surely 268 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,110 Phil Spencer: that's what this is about, isn't it? 269 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,410 Kate Faulkner: Well, it kind of is. And I'm not no expert on 270 00:13:40,410 --> 00:13:43,590 Kate Faulkner: this, but the bit that horrifies me is that you 271 00:13:43,890 --> 00:13:47,490 Kate Faulkner: can do explainers, but you can't give advice. And for 272 00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:49,860 Kate Faulkner: me, if I wanted to change the world tomorrow, which 273 00:13:49,860 --> 00:13:53,880 Kate Faulkner: I do, my big plea is that I want every 274 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,700 Kate Faulkner: first time buyer, before they do anything in the property 275 00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:59,610 Kate Faulkner: space, to go and talk to a broker. Because there's 1. 276 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,250 Kate Faulkner: 2 million moves, as we've mentioned; every single one of 277 00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:05,220 Kate Faulkner: those is different. None of them are same, why they're 278 00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:08,819 Kate Faulkner: buying, why they're selling, the type of property, particularly for 279 00:14:08,820 --> 00:14:12,540 Kate Faulkner: first time buyers. Good brokers are worth their weight in 280 00:14:12,540 --> 00:14:16,290 Kate Faulkner: gold. I don't want them to fill in a calculator. I want 281 00:14:16,290 --> 00:14:18,210 Kate Faulkner: them to go and see a broker, because that's the 282 00:14:18,210 --> 00:14:21,090 Kate Faulkner: person who can hold their hand throughout all of it. 283 00:14:21,330 --> 00:14:24,960 Kate Faulkner: And one that does the amazing work and takes on 284 00:14:24,990 --> 00:14:28,320 Kate Faulkner: board the work that you've done, they can really help 285 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,290 Kate Faulkner: people out because I've done loads of things where I've 286 00:14:31,290 --> 00:14:33,630 Kate Faulkner: been asked, " Oh, Kate, we want to sell properties without 287 00:14:33,630 --> 00:14:35,580 Kate Faulkner: agents," and this. And I've run away from all of 288 00:14:35,580 --> 00:14:38,970 Kate Faulkner: it, because you need a person. You need a face- to- 289 00:14:38,970 --> 00:14:42,540 Kate Faulkner: face, I think, because a calculator tells you nothing, and- 290 00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:45,480 Phil Spencer: Yeah. And we all live in our own unique circumstances 291 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:45,661 Phil Spencer: in our own situations. 292 00:14:45,661 --> 00:14:48,990 Kate Faulkner: Absolutely. And it's only by sitting with a broker that 293 00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:53,130 Kate Faulkner: you can understand that. And I've just done a remortgage. 294 00:14:53,550 --> 00:14:57,690 Kate Faulkner: And it was weird, because I literally just filled in 295 00:14:57,690 --> 00:15:01,560 Kate Faulkner: a few boxes and it was all done. And I 296 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,750 Kate Faulkner: was more stressed by that than talking to a broker 297 00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:08,130 Kate Faulkner: about it because I couldn't discuss anything. 298 00:15:08,910 --> 00:15:08,911 Phil Spencer: You didn't know if it was the right thing. 299 00:15:08,911 --> 00:15:13,020 Kate Faulkner: I wasn't allowed to, and I hated that. So for me, please, as 300 00:15:13,020 --> 00:15:16,290 Kate Faulkner: a broker or a first time buyer, get together, sit, 301 00:15:16,290 --> 00:15:19,290 Kate Faulkner: whether it's over Zoom or whatever it might be. But 302 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,680 Kate Faulkner: don't do it all online. I think that is really 303 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,450 Kate Faulkner: not the place for the work we do. 304 00:15:24,450 --> 00:15:28,470 Phil Spencer: Louise, has consumer duty changed the conversation when it comes 305 00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:29,310 Phil Spencer: to vulnerability? 306 00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:32,220 Louise Baxter: It has. There's still a way to go, I would 307 00:15:32,220 --> 00:15:36,180 Louise Baxter: say. So it's all about ensuring people get better outcomes, 308 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,260 Louise Baxter: but there's still sometimes a disconnect with what we're saying 309 00:15:40,260 --> 00:15:43,680 Louise Baxter: and what people are actually hearing. I don't think we do enough of 310 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,860 Louise Baxter: checking that people actually understand the information that we've given 311 00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:50,310 Louise Baxter: to them. So from a broker perspective, that would just be, " 312 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,410 Louise Baxter: Can you explain the decision you've just made and why 313 00:15:52,410 --> 00:15:55,739 Louise Baxter: you've made it?" So to the consumer, so if a 314 00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:57,720 Louise Baxter: consumer goes, " I'm going to take that deal or I 315 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,900 Louise Baxter: want that," it's just a case of questioning, " Can you 316 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,900 Louise Baxter: tell me why?" And if that is, " Oh, because this, 317 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:06,030 Louise Baxter: this and this," you can check their understanding of it 318 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,970 Louise Baxter: to ensure that they get the best outcomes for them 319 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:12,240 Louise Baxter: personally, because again, we're all going to make different decisions. 320 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,580 Louise Baxter: Like my broker, I dealt with on WhatsApp. We would text all 321 00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:16,770 Louise Baxter: day because I was at work, I didn't have time to 322 00:16:16,770 --> 00:16:19,020 Louise Baxter: talk to him. It also meant I could go back 323 00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:21,030 Louise Baxter: and look at what he'd put so I had time 324 00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:21,181 Louise Baxter: to read it. 325 00:16:21,181 --> 00:16:24,930 Kate Faulkner: Yeah. But at least you had a conversation one- to- one, 326 00:16:25,230 --> 00:16:29,370 Kate Faulkner: and I think that's really what we mustn't lose with 327 00:16:29,370 --> 00:16:32,190 Kate Faulkner: the work that's going on and with the AI and everything. 328 00:16:32,370 --> 00:16:34,830 Kate Faulkner: That one- to- one conversation is so critical. 329 00:16:35,190 --> 00:16:40,350 Phil Spencer: What else needs to change to improve the experience for 330 00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:41,130 Phil Spencer: first time buyers? 331 00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:44,070 Kate Faulkner: So I think a lot of it for me just goes 332 00:16:44,070 --> 00:16:48,870 Kate Faulkner: to real basics. They don't understand the costs and they 333 00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:52,110 Kate Faulkner: don't understand when they have to pay things. Those are 334 00:16:52,110 --> 00:16:56,640 Kate Faulkner: two absolutely critical things. They don't understand the significance of 335 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,020 Kate Faulkner: becoming self- employed and that their change in circumstance will 336 00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:04,560 Kate Faulkner: cause a problem, or indeed, going back to mortgage insurance, 337 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,129 Kate Faulkner: the importance of having things like that. So for me, 338 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,730 Kate Faulkner: it's making sure that they have that broker by their 339 00:17:11,730 --> 00:17:14,369 Kate Faulkner: side from the start. If you can get in with 340 00:17:14,369 --> 00:17:17,879 Kate Faulkner: somebody before they start looking for property, you can help 341 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,750 Kate Faulkner: them. If you appear halfway through, I'm really sorry, we've 342 00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:26,010 Kate Faulkner: lost them. It's about getting them at the start and making sure 343 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:28,710 Kate Faulkner: that they've understood those costs and when to pay, particularly 344 00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:31,560 Kate Faulkner: because you've got things like lifetime ISAs, help- to- buy ISAs. 345 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:34,409 Kate Faulkner: There's been some very confusing messaging on those as well. 346 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,570 Kate Faulkner: So for me, life is much more simple, and just 347 00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:41,280 Kate Faulkner: make sure they've got a broker by their side through 348 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,399 Kate Faulkner: WhatsApp or whatever it is, and have that one- to- one conversation. 349 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,210 Phil Spencer: Louise, anything else that needs to happen or is happening? 350 00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:52,439 Louise Baxter: The language needs to be so simplified. You have to 351 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,600 Louise Baxter: imagine that you are talking to somebody that has never 352 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,810 Louise Baxter: done this before, and we are so bad at that. Even things 353 00:17:57,810 --> 00:18:00,300 Louise Baxter: like if you're talking about redemptions, if you went and did a 354 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:02,609 Louise Baxter: poll outside on the street, most consumers will go, " I 355 00:18:02,609 --> 00:18:05,580 Louise Baxter: don't know what that is. I don't know what a redemption is. 356 00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:06,000 Louise Baxter: Don't know what it is." 357 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:06,002 Kate Faulkner: (inaudible) really. 358 00:18:06,002 --> 00:18:09,690 Louise Baxter: But again, we have all of this, it's written in ... 359 00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:12,869 Louise Baxter: So even with my mortgage, for example, it came on 360 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,970 Louise Baxter: thin paper, small print that I can't read properly because my eyesight's 361 00:18:17,970 --> 00:18:19,920 Louise Baxter: not particularly good. I don't want to have to take 362 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,550 Louise Baxter: photos of things and then zoom in on them. So it's simplify 363 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:27,660 Louise Baxter: the language, make it easier to read, so more spacing. 364 00:18:27,690 --> 00:18:31,320 Louise Baxter: It's really simple things: white spacing on pages, dark black 365 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,590 Louise Baxter: font in a font that is really good for people 366 00:18:34,590 --> 00:18:36,960 Louise Baxter: that are dyslexic so that then that you're not having a 367 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,750 Louise Baxter: situation where people aren't able to access it. But also 368 00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:43,320 Louise Baxter: allow that time for questioning as well. So it's be 369 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,129 Louise Baxter: kind, it's ask questions, don't make assumptions about people as 370 00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:50,010 Louise Baxter: well. So if you think somebody's vulnerable, don't treat them 371 00:18:50,010 --> 00:18:53,970 Louise Baxter: like they're vulnerable. It's disempowering. So empathy. If you can't 372 00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:59,040 Louise Baxter: empathize, sympathize. And have those really open conversations where if 373 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,869 Louise Baxter: you're with a broker, you cultivate that relationship that no 374 00:19:03,869 --> 00:19:06,151 Louise Baxter: question I ask is stupid. That's what ... I mean- 375 00:19:06,151 --> 00:19:06,152 Kate Faulkner: It's a nice way of putting it. 376 00:19:06,152 --> 00:19:10,709 Phil Spencer: Yes. How many times have I spoken to my broker and go, " Sorry about the 377 00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:12,571 Phil Spencer: silly question, but" ... And I work in the world, but I've still got silly questions. Yeah. 378 00:19:12,571 --> 00:19:12,781 Louise Baxter: Yeah, and you will, because- 379 00:19:12,781 --> 00:19:14,002 Phil Spencer: But she says it's not a silly question (inaudible) - 380 00:19:14,002 --> 00:19:14,003 Louise Baxter: No question's silly. That's the thing, isn't it? 381 00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:23,399 Kate Faulkner: But also, everything changes so often in our world. The 382 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,530 Kate Faulkner: way you bought a home last year isn't the same 383 00:19:25,530 --> 00:19:27,869 Kate Faulkner: way you buy it this year; stamp duty changes, all 384 00:19:27,869 --> 00:19:31,530 Kate Faulkner: of those things that we've mentioned before. There's a lot of external 385 00:19:31,530 --> 00:19:33,810 Kate Faulkner: factors that influence how you buy and sell a home 386 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,699 Kate Faulkner: that the industry has no control over; interest rates, as 387 00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:42,330 Kate Faulkner: you mentioned. And I think that's quite hard. And we 388 00:19:42,330 --> 00:19:45,869 Kate Faulkner: understand the implications of it, but I think we have 389 00:19:45,869 --> 00:19:49,440 Kate Faulkner: to know that, again, every time everybody moves, it's different. 390 00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:51,600 Kate Faulkner: And you can move five years ago; it doesn't mean 391 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:52,859 Kate Faulkner: you'll understand how to move now. 392 00:19:52,859 --> 00:19:53,340 Louise Baxter: Absolutely. 393 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,880 Kate Faulkner: And there are changes afoot, so that's really good. So 394 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,320 Kate Faulkner: we have some really exciting time- 395 00:19:58,380 --> 00:19:58,470 Phil Spencer: Sure. And there's more coming. 396 00:19:58,530 --> 00:20:00,630 Kate Faulkner: More coming. Yes. I couldn't be more excited. 397 00:20:00,810 --> 00:20:03,570 Louise Baxter: I think if you were to treat everybody as if they were vulnerable, 398 00:20:03,570 --> 00:20:05,520 Louise Baxter: which they are, which we've said when they're buying a house, 399 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,161 Louise Baxter: you'll design an inclusive service, which everyone will benefit from. 400 00:20:08,161 --> 00:20:08,970 Kate Faulkner: Love that. Really love that. 401 00:20:09,150 --> 00:20:14,369 Louise Baxter: So things like the Amazon Alexas, for example, they were designed 402 00:20:14,369 --> 00:20:18,270 Louise Baxter: with vulnerability at the start of that journey. Everybody benefits 403 00:20:18,270 --> 00:20:20,220 Louise Baxter: from having some sort of device like that in a house 404 00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:24,510 Louise Baxter: now. Zebra crossings, drop curbs. A bendy straw was designed 405 00:20:24,510 --> 00:20:26,609 Louise Baxter: for people in hospital to be able to drink. Who 406 00:20:26,609 --> 00:20:29,280 Louise Baxter: doesn't like a bendy straw? It's these sort of inclusive 407 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,129 Louise Baxter: service provision things. If we start at the beginning of 408 00:20:32,130 --> 00:20:34,500 Louise Baxter: our journey thinking, " Right, everyone we deal with is vulnerable 409 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:37,740 Louise Baxter: or potentially vulnerable," we will build it so that we'll 410 00:20:37,740 --> 00:20:40,590 Louise Baxter: all go, " That was easy. I understood that." 411 00:20:40,619 --> 00:20:47,490 Phil Spencer: Yes. And it is only when somebody understands ... particularly, I mean, 412 00:20:47,490 --> 00:20:49,230 Phil Spencer: the process of buying a house is complicated enough, but 413 00:20:49,859 --> 00:20:53,460 Phil Spencer: the financial implications of buying a house. It is only 414 00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:56,430 Phil Spencer: when people understand it properly that they're in a better 415 00:20:56,430 --> 00:21:00,149 Phil Spencer: position to negotiate a better house price, they're in a 416 00:21:00,150 --> 00:21:03,750 Phil Spencer: better position to negotiate a better mortgage deal and lower 417 00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:07,530 Phil Spencer: interest rates if they understand what they need to do 418 00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:10,500 Phil Spencer: in order to pull that off. So it is absolutely 419 00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:14,100 Phil Spencer: crucial. So brokers are often the key people that buyers 420 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:17,850 Phil Spencer: have a relationship hopefully through the whole process. And their 421 00:21:17,850 --> 00:21:22,020 Phil Spencer: role is absolutely pivotal, particularly for first time buyers. How 422 00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:25,350 Phil Spencer: do you think they can help buyers understand the process 423 00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:27,090 Phil Spencer: and also some of the language? 424 00:21:27,629 --> 00:21:31,500 Louise Baxter: I think you have your key information document. I think there's 425 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:34,200 Louise Baxter: one of those where you either simplify the language completely, 426 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,149 Louise Baxter: but that's living in a utopia that's not going to 427 00:21:36,150 --> 00:21:39,240 Louise Baxter: happen. People are going to still use complicated language. But 428 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,520 Louise Baxter: you can have an explanation sheet of all the important 429 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,670 Louise Baxter: bits that you need to understand, which in my opinion, 430 00:21:44,670 --> 00:21:48,000 Louise Baxter: should be given to consumers at every touchpoint. So not 431 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,280 Louise Baxter: just once. We give the information to them more than 432 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,350 Louise Baxter: once to check their understanding. We also give it to 433 00:21:52,350 --> 00:21:54,990 Louise Baxter: them in different formats. Do you need it in a 434 00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:58,290 Louise Baxter: text message? Do you need it in a WhatsApp? Do you need it written down? Do you 435 00:21:58,290 --> 00:22:00,330 Louise Baxter: need it printed? Do you need me to have a face- to- 436 00:22:00,330 --> 00:22:02,700 Louise Baxter: face with you? Like you've said, some people prefer that 437 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:06,750 Louise Baxter: sort of communication. So tailor your communication to the consumer, 438 00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:09,330 Louise Baxter: but make sure that they get that information on more 439 00:22:09,330 --> 00:22:10,619 Louise Baxter: than one occasion as well. 440 00:22:11,790 --> 00:22:12,840 Phil Spencer: And that they understand it. 441 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:13,438 Louise Baxter: And that they understand it. 442 00:22:13,439 --> 00:22:14,730 Phil Spencer: Kate, any thoughts from you just to finish off with? 443 00:22:15,570 --> 00:22:18,869 Kate Faulkner: Yeah. So I think for me, it's about making sure that as a 444 00:22:18,869 --> 00:22:21,540 Kate Faulkner: mortgage broker, you don't stay in your office because that's 445 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:24,780 Kate Faulkner: where first time buyers aren't living. So I'd be out 446 00:22:24,930 --> 00:22:29,310 Kate Faulkner: at shopping centers, sitting there, " Have you got some questions," 447 00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:32,220 Kate Faulkner: whatever it might be. And also you can do things 448 00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:35,040 Kate Faulkner: like who are the biggest employers in your area? It 449 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,950 Kate Faulkner: might be the NHS. It might be Experian or something, 450 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,359 Kate Faulkner: big Barclays indeed. And make sure that you're going into 451 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,929 Kate Faulkner: those offices and offering them help because as it's one 452 00:22:45,930 --> 00:22:48,390 Kate Faulkner: of the most stressful events, if you can take away 453 00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:50,820 Kate Faulkner: that stress, then it's not going to affect their day 454 00:22:50,820 --> 00:22:53,490 Kate Faulkner: job. So I think that's important. The second thing is, 455 00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:55,830 Kate Faulkner: one of the things we're doing on the council is 456 00:22:55,830 --> 00:23:00,900 Kate Faulkner: we're starting to prepare now consumer education, everything from start 457 00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:03,840 Kate Faulkner: to finish of the buying and selling process, but it's cross 458 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,530 Kate Faulkner: communication that's all been signed off from everybody from lender 459 00:23:07,530 --> 00:23:10,950 Kate Faulkner: through to removal. So how to move by 1: 00 460 00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:15,090 Kate Faulkner: PM, how to deal with fraud, which I'll now check 461 00:23:15,090 --> 00:23:15,719 Kate Faulkner: with you if that's right. 462 00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:15,990 Louise Baxter: Yeah, of course. 463 00:23:17,070 --> 00:23:19,080 Kate Faulkner: So what we want to do is we want to 464 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,540 Kate Faulkner: make sure that, exactly as you said, they go to an 465 00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:24,480 Kate Faulkner: agent, they get the same information bit by leaflet, however 466 00:23:24,510 --> 00:23:26,790 Kate Faulkner: they want to receive it. They then go to the 467 00:23:26,790 --> 00:23:30,240 Kate Faulkner: conveyancing lawyer, they get the same information. So we have 468 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,300 Kate Faulkner: to, as an industry, even though we're very siloed in 469 00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:37,590 Kate Faulkner: our different sectors, we have to share consumer information and 470 00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:39,960 Kate Faulkner: make sure that we all agree to say the same 471 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,350 Kate Faulkner: thing, because that can cause a lot of confusion. So 472 00:23:43,530 --> 00:23:46,560 Kate Faulkner: any broker that wants to get involved, we'd love to 473 00:23:46,890 --> 00:23:48,659 Kate Faulkner: have you, and that's what we're hoping to make the 474 00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:52,050 Kate Faulkner: difference this year, is get some key information out and 475 00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:54,780 Kate Faulkner: all work together to be saying the same things, same 476 00:23:54,780 --> 00:23:58,890 Kate Faulkner: information, whatever format it may be in. If we can achieve that, wow, 477 00:23:58,890 --> 00:23:59,820 Kate Faulkner: what a difference it'll make. 478 00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:02,369 Phil Spencer: Are there things that you're seeing brokers do that are 479 00:24:02,369 --> 00:24:05,880 Phil Spencer: innovative that are sort of changing it up, or any thoughts, 480 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,230 Phil Spencer: suggestions on what they might do? 481 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,890 Kate Faulkner: Well, I do a lot of shows, things we used 482 00:24:10,890 --> 00:24:13,409 Kate Faulkner: to do them before the pandemic, and I think that's 483 00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:14,250 Kate Faulkner: a great way to reach people. 484 00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:15,119 Phil Spencer: As in a roadshow, or ... 485 00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:18,689 Kate Faulkner: Well, you go to first time buyer shows or you can do 486 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,869 Kate Faulkner: your own show. So if you've got a reasonable broker 487 00:24:21,869 --> 00:24:24,960 Kate Faulkner: office or if you work with agents, just doing small 488 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,109 Kate Faulkner: evenings. We've done that a lot where you might only 489 00:24:28,109 --> 00:24:30,510 Kate Faulkner: get 10 people around the table. But the lovely thing 490 00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:32,970 Kate Faulkner: about our industry, if you get 10 people around a table and they 491 00:24:32,970 --> 00:24:37,560 Kate Faulkner: get a good experience, they're going to tell another 100. So 492 00:24:38,130 --> 00:24:40,109 Kate Faulkner: you start, and you can start with small groups and 493 00:24:40,109 --> 00:24:42,930 Kate Faulkner: then you can build them bigger. But that for me 494 00:24:42,930 --> 00:24:45,840 Kate Faulkner: is the thing that I love, is when I go 495 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,910 Kate Faulkner: out and about and I go to shows or I 496 00:24:47,910 --> 00:24:51,689 Kate Faulkner: go to events for first time buyers, and there the 497 00:24:51,690 --> 00:24:55,800 Kate Faulkner: brokers are. And they're talking about it and they're explaining 498 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,520 Kate Faulkner: things ideally before people move. That's what we've got to 499 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,399 Kate Faulkner: get good at, is don't wait until they want to 500 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,859 Kate Faulkner: move, because actually, you might need to speak to them 501 00:25:04,859 --> 00:25:08,040 Kate Faulkner: three years beforehand. And those are the ones that I 502 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,300 Kate Faulkner: think do the best and get the best customers, because 503 00:25:12,330 --> 00:25:14,280 Kate Faulkner: you've already trained them before they turn up at your 504 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:15,119 Kate Faulkner: door with the property. 505 00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:16,830 Louise Baxter: I really liked what you said about telling stories- 506 00:25:16,830 --> 00:25:16,831 Kate Faulkner: A story's good, every time. 507 00:25:16,831 --> 00:25:20,130 Louise Baxter: Because it makes it relatable every time and relevant and 508 00:25:20,130 --> 00:25:24,900 Louise Baxter: memorable. So I'll remember that story. So it's memorable, which 509 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:28,470 Louise Baxter: makes it relevant to our lives rather than something that's 510 00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:30,359 Louise Baxter: beyond us that we don't currently need to know. 511 00:25:30,540 --> 00:25:33,449 Phil Spencer: In a similar vein, I talk about making decisions in 512 00:25:33,450 --> 00:25:35,310 Phil Spencer: the heat of battle. The heat of battle when you're 513 00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:37,619 Phil Spencer: house hunting, is you found a house and you're negotiating 514 00:25:37,619 --> 00:25:40,409 Phil Spencer: a price and you're right involved in it. Last thing you 515 00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:44,070 Phil Spencer: want to do then is start understanding a mortgage and 516 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,300 Phil Spencer: making those decisions. 517 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:45,481 Kate Faulkner: 100%, yeah. 518 00:25:45,481 --> 00:25:50,369 Phil Spencer: You want to have done that months before in a really calm, quiet, 519 00:25:50,369 --> 00:25:51,540 Phil Spencer: considered way. 520 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,450 Louise Baxter: So the work that I do in fraud, it's called a hot 521 00:25:54,450 --> 00:25:56,940 Louise Baxter: state. So the criminals are really ... and I'm not saying it's the 522 00:25:56,940 --> 00:25:59,010 Louise Baxter: same, but it's a very similar state. You get pushed into 523 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,280 Louise Baxter: a position where there's scarcity, you've got to make a 524 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,490 Louise Baxter: decision quickly. You're in a high pressure situation. So if 525 00:26:05,490 --> 00:26:09,510 Louise Baxter: you get somebody contacting you, a criminal who's trying to 526 00:26:09,510 --> 00:26:11,760 Louise Baxter: say that they're your bank, for example, who's an imposter 527 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,090 Louise Baxter: fraud, they will be like, " Your account's been hijacked. We 528 00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:16,000 Louise Baxter: need to move your money quickly." 529 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:16,560 Kate Faulkner: (inaudible) yeah. 530 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,750 Louise Baxter: So when you're buying a house, you're pushed into a 531 00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:21,688 Louise Baxter: similar mental health state. So it's a hot state because 532 00:26:21,689 --> 00:26:23,939 Louise Baxter: you've got to move quick or you might lose that 533 00:26:23,940 --> 00:26:26,129 Louise Baxter: particular house: " Oh, we need to lock that mortgage in 534 00:26:26,130 --> 00:26:28,679 Louise Baxter: before the interest rates are relooked at next month." So 535 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,040 Louise Baxter: there's all of these things, which means our decision- making 536 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,340 Louise Baxter: may not be as objective or as sound as if 537 00:26:35,340 --> 00:26:38,100 Louise Baxter: we can have a moment to consider the information and 538 00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:41,700 Louise Baxter: understand it all properly. So like you say, mortgage before you 539 00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:42,750 Louise Baxter: are in that hot state. 540 00:26:42,750 --> 00:26:44,941 Phil Spencer: Coming back to Kate's point, yeah. Get onto your broker nice and early. 541 00:26:44,941 --> 00:26:51,630 Kate Faulkner: Absolutely. And if you've got that relationship, the first person you should call hopefully 542 00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:54,660 Kate Faulkner: when you're being pushed into something or feel under pressure 543 00:26:54,750 --> 00:26:58,020 Kate Faulkner: is the broker. And whenever I talk to people, I'm 544 00:26:58,020 --> 00:27:02,640 Kate Faulkner: just like, " Hold." Never make an offer when you're panicked. 545 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:02,820 Louise Baxter: Yeah, take a breath. 546 00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:06,420 Kate Faulkner: Take a breath. Don't care what anybody's telling you, because 547 00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:10,080 Kate Faulkner: just know over time, if it's the right property, you'll 548 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,260 Kate Faulkner: get it. So step back. 549 00:27:16,619 --> 00:27:16,619 Phil Spencer: You heard it here first. 550 00:27:16,619 --> 00:27:16,620 Kate Faulkner: Absolutely. 551 00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:19,590 Phil Spencer: Thank you both so much. An exciting year ahead. Lots to achieve. 552 00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:20,850 Kate Faulkner: It is. Well, thanks for having us. 553 00:27:20,850 --> 00:27:21,060 Louise Baxter: Thanks for having me. 554 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,010 Phil Spencer: That was Louise Baxter, consumer champion and co- CEO of 555 00:27:26,010 --> 00:27:29,730 Phil Spencer: Consumer Friend, and Kate Faulkner, who's chair of the Home 556 00:27:29,730 --> 00:27:34,230 Phil Spencer: Buying and Selling Council and founder of propertychecklists. co. uk. 557 00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:37,020 Phil Spencer: Just to point out, we're recording this on the 2nd of 558 00:27:37,020 --> 00:27:41,520 Phil Spencer: February 2026. The views expressed by myself and external guests 559 00:27:41,730 --> 00:27:45,060 Phil Spencer: are not necessarily the views of Barclays. Thanks for listening 560 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,990 Phil Spencer: to Mortgage Insider from Barclays. I'm Phil Spencer. If you're 561 00:27:48,990 --> 00:27:51,660 Phil Spencer: listening to the podcast, you can now watch the video 562 00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:56,369 Phil Spencer: on Spotify. Subscribe to Mortgage Insider on your favorite podcast 563 00:27:56,369 --> 00:27:59,698 Phil Spencer: app. Join us again next month. Hope to see you then.