1 00:00:03,540 --> 00:00:05,270 Speaker 1: Okay. Is your girlfriend conscious? 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:07,390 Lakhvinder Cheema: Yeah, she's- 3 00:00:07,390 --> 00:00:07,650 Speaker 1: Is she all right? 4 00:00:08,350 --> 00:00:11,090 Lakhvinder Cheema: Yes. Shes' [inaudible 00:00:12], because- 5 00:00:11,869 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Okay. So, what makes you think somebody poisoned your food? 6 00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:17,681 Lakhvinder Cheema: Because, she was my ex- girlfriend. She came to visit my home. 7 00:00:17,681 --> 00:00:20,689 Speaker 1: You think your ex- girlfriend's done it. 8 00:00:20,689 --> 00:00:20,739 Lakhvinder Cheema: Yes, sir. 9 00:00:26,070 --> 00:00:30,900 James Wong: January, 2009. A West London man and his fiance sat 10 00:00:30,900 --> 00:00:33,559 James Wong: at their dinner table to share a meal. And to 11 00:00:33,559 --> 00:00:38,690 James Wong: discuss their wedding planned for Valentine's Day. Just hours after 12 00:00:38,710 --> 00:00:43,110 James Wong: he made this 999 call. Lakhvinder Cheema was dead and 13 00:00:43,110 --> 00:00:47,499 James Wong: his fiance critically ill. The dead man's suspicion lay with 14 00:00:47,500 --> 00:00:51,129 James Wong: his spurned ex- girlfriend. But where was the proof that 15 00:00:51,129 --> 00:00:53,460 James Wong: this mother of three was behind the plot? 16 00:00:54,450 --> 00:00:58,210 Luke smith: Aconite poisoning is extremely rare. And indeed, a lot of 17 00:00:58,210 --> 00:01:01,630 Luke smith: doctors haven't even heard of it before. Let alone know 18 00:01:01,630 --> 00:01:04,740 Luke smith: what its effects would be or how to identify a 19 00:01:04,740 --> 00:01:05,929 Luke smith: poisoning of this case. 20 00:01:06,369 --> 00:01:09,080 James Wong: Today we'll find out what happened when Kew were called 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:10,830 James Wong: upon to help catch a killer. 22 00:01:11,429 --> 00:01:14,420 Monique Simmonds: You have this very sophisticated equipment. That allows us to 23 00:01:14,420 --> 00:01:17,020 Monique Simmonds: have this fingerprint of the chemicals. 24 00:01:17,220 --> 00:01:20,950 James Wong: I'm James Wong, and you're listening to Unearthed: Mysteries from 25 00:01:20,950 --> 00:01:30,280 James Wong: an unseen world. From Royal Botanic gardens, Kew. Lakhvinder Cheema 26 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,699 James Wong: was known to his friends as lucky. He and his 27 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:38,610 James Wong: girlfriend Gurjeet Choongh, were busy planning their wedding. Choongh was 28 00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:41,889 James Wong: 21. And had been in a world in relationship with 29 00:01:41,890 --> 00:01:46,709 James Wong: exciting times ahead. But early in their engagement. Choongh had 30 00:01:46,709 --> 00:01:52,270 James Wong: made an unexpected discovery. A woman called Lakhvir Singh, revealed 31 00:01:52,270 --> 00:01:55,850 James Wong: that she and her fiance had been lovers for 15 32 00:01:55,850 --> 00:01:59,930 James Wong: years. Lucky had ended the affair. But his ex lover 33 00:01:59,970 --> 00:02:05,300 James Wong: had been heartbroken sending messages that became increasingly more abusive. 34 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:13,139 James Wong: But was this a motive for murder? Lakhvir Singh, was 35 00:02:13,139 --> 00:02:16,670 James Wong: a mother of three. Her husband was suffering with cancer 36 00:02:16,739 --> 00:02:22,100 James Wong: in hospital. In January, 2009. Singh went to Lucky's house 37 00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:25,310 James Wong: in Feltham. And was let in by the lodger. Who 38 00:02:25,310 --> 00:02:27,329 James Wong: saw her go into the fridge and take out a 39 00:02:27,329 --> 00:02:31,829 James Wong: container of Curry. It was this Curry that lucky and 40 00:02:31,829 --> 00:02:33,500 James Wong: his fiance were to later eat. 41 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:36,139 Speaker 1: And what makes you say somebody poisoned your food? 42 00:02:37,790 --> 00:02:41,860 James Wong: After symptoms has started to appear. Lucky's sister and nephews 43 00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:44,989 James Wong: helped get him and Gurjeet in the car to West 44 00:02:45,019 --> 00:02:50,299 James Wong: Middlesex Hospital. But within hours he was dead. Gurjeet was 45 00:02:50,299 --> 00:02:54,029 James Wong: placed into a medically induced coma, while scientists sought to 46 00:02:54,030 --> 00:02:57,780 James Wong: identify the substance. This ultimately saved her life. 47 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,929 Luke smith: I'm Luke Smith. I am a consultant in acute medicine, 48 00:03:01,929 --> 00:03:04,480 Luke smith: with an interest in toxicology. We see a lot of 49 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:10,210 Luke smith: things like paracetamol poisoning, alcohol poisoning, things like that. Aspirin, 50 00:03:10,230 --> 00:03:14,100 Luke smith: occasionally carbon monoxide. In terms of plant poisonings, not as 51 00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:17,889 Luke smith: common, but still we do see things. Plants generally tend 52 00:03:17,889 --> 00:03:21,019 Luke smith: to produce a lot of chemicals which have effects. And 53 00:03:21,519 --> 00:03:24,879 Luke smith: it depends on how you define plant poisoning. For example; 54 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,299 Luke smith: cocaine itself would be a plant poison in its truest 55 00:03:28,299 --> 00:03:31,419 Luke smith: sense of the word. So, we see quite a lot 56 00:03:31,419 --> 00:03:34,530 Luke smith: of that actually coming in into St. Thomas's hospital anyway. 57 00:03:35,030 --> 00:03:38,780 Luke smith: Aconite poisoning is extremely rare. And indeed, a lot of 58 00:03:38,780 --> 00:03:42,200 Luke smith: doctors haven't even heard of it before. Let alone know 59 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,300 Luke smith: what its effects would be or how to identify a 60 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:49,180 Luke smith: poisoning of this case, in a poisoned patient. In this 61 00:03:49,180 --> 00:03:53,530 Luke smith: particular case, the poisoning was so severe that the evolution 62 00:03:53,530 --> 00:03:57,550 Luke smith: of symptoms was very rapid and the patients became extremely 63 00:03:57,550 --> 00:04:02,050 Luke smith: poisoned, extremely ill, very quickly. So much so, that the 64 00:04:02,050 --> 00:04:05,839 Luke smith: timelines involved were so short that identifying the patients had 65 00:04:05,839 --> 00:04:09,460 Luke smith: even been poisoned was a tricky one in itself. Cheema, 66 00:04:09,510 --> 00:04:13,270 Luke smith: who was the gentleman who died. Suspected he'd been poisoned 67 00:04:13,369 --> 00:04:16,360 Luke smith: and told the ambulance crew that when they called in the 68 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,779 Luke smith: ambulance. So, we had it in the back of our minds 69 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,050 Luke smith: that this might be a possibility. But because they deteriorated 70 00:04:23,050 --> 00:04:25,580 Luke smith: and he died so rapidly, there was no time to 71 00:04:25,580 --> 00:04:29,979 Luke smith: identify what the agent was. It was very interesting because 72 00:04:30,409 --> 00:04:34,320 Luke smith: it is such a rare poison, particularly in the Western 73 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,210 Luke smith: world. In India it's more common. And it's also used 74 00:04:38,210 --> 00:04:41,870 Luke smith: as a herbal remedy in Chinese herbal medicine. But it's 75 00:04:41,870 --> 00:04:45,330 Luke smith: virtually unheard of in the UK or in America or 76 00:04:45,330 --> 00:04:48,659 Luke smith: the Western world. From a physician point of view. The 77 00:04:48,659 --> 00:04:51,580 Luke smith: whole goal of treatment in this particular case would be 78 00:04:51,580 --> 00:04:54,990 Luke smith: to try and save the patient's life. So, we would 79 00:04:54,990 --> 00:04:57,669 Luke smith: have an algorithm that we have drummed into us from 80 00:04:57,669 --> 00:05:01,739 Luke smith: medical school about how to approach acutely unwell patients, whatever 81 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:04,740 Luke smith: is wrong with them. And it's to stabilize each individual 82 00:05:05,409 --> 00:05:08,810 Luke smith: body system in turn to prevent the patient deteriorating or 83 00:05:08,810 --> 00:05:12,360 Luke smith: dying. It's called the ABCDE approach. That is what we 84 00:05:12,450 --> 00:05:14,560 Luke smith: the doctors looking after these patients would have tried to 85 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,060 Luke smith: have done in the first instance. So it wouldn't necessarily 86 00:05:17,260 --> 00:05:20,580 Luke smith: have been about identifying a poison or an agent in 87 00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:23,529 Luke smith: particular. It would be to try and save their lives. 88 00:05:23,529 --> 00:05:29,600 James Wong: Proving a clear connection between ex- girlfriend Singh, the Curry 89 00:05:29,659 --> 00:05:34,219 James Wong: and the toxin that killed lucky wasn't straightforward. The first 90 00:05:34,219 --> 00:05:38,710 James Wong: challenge was to identify the toxin scientists tested for nicotine 91 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,029 James Wong: and arsenic, but have ruled both out. 92 00:05:41,349 --> 00:05:44,890 Luke smith: Police were called and the National Poisons Information Service were 93 00:05:44,890 --> 00:05:48,260 Luke smith: called. Who gave advice on what were the best tests 94 00:05:48,260 --> 00:05:51,270 Luke smith: to do to try and identify and as yet unknown 95 00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:54,950 Luke smith: poison and what tests could be sent off. So, things 96 00:05:54,950 --> 00:05:58,099 Luke smith: like contents of the stomach, a postmortem could be sent, 97 00:05:58,140 --> 00:06:00,140 Luke smith: blood samples could be taken. And we have to make 98 00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:02,580 Luke smith: sure that we take the right blood samples. And they're 99 00:06:02,580 --> 00:06:05,289 Luke smith: in the right blood tubes. And given this is a 100 00:06:05,289 --> 00:06:07,270 Luke smith: legal case. There has to be a chain of evidence 101 00:06:07,270 --> 00:06:09,940 Luke smith: and a chain of custody observed as well, to ensure 102 00:06:09,940 --> 00:06:13,750 Luke smith: that any evidence that is secured and in identifying the 103 00:06:13,750 --> 00:06:15,620 Luke smith: poison can be used in a court of law as 104 00:06:15,620 --> 00:06:19,659 Luke smith: well. Lots of poisons don't have specific antidotes. And treatment 105 00:06:19,659 --> 00:06:23,370 Luke smith: is supportive, rather than trying to find an agent to 106 00:06:23,370 --> 00:06:27,180 Luke smith: counteract the effect of the poison. So, the approach from 107 00:06:27,180 --> 00:06:29,619 Luke smith: the National Poison Service at the time, would have been 108 00:06:29,799 --> 00:06:33,379 Luke smith: similar to any unknown poisons to just try and save lives. 109 00:06:33,799 --> 00:06:36,570 Luke smith: But it would have been important that they had in 110 00:06:36,570 --> 00:06:37,940 Luke smith: the back of their minds as well. We need to 111 00:06:37,940 --> 00:06:41,500 Luke smith: find out what this was because this has legal implications. 112 00:06:41,630 --> 00:06:43,510 Luke smith: And we need to think about what samples we need 113 00:06:43,510 --> 00:06:48,189 Luke smith: to be collecting and how we do that. The main 114 00:06:48,599 --> 00:06:53,150 Luke smith: presenting symptom they had initially was vomiting. And that's quite 115 00:06:53,150 --> 00:06:58,449 Luke smith: a nebulous and ubiquitous symptom. But they progressed rapidly in 116 00:06:58,690 --> 00:07:02,069 Luke smith: their poisoning. They then developed pins and needles in the 117 00:07:02,070 --> 00:07:06,020 Luke smith: face, particularly around the mouth and then extending to their hands 118 00:07:06,020 --> 00:07:09,850 Luke smith: as well. And that became quite disabling to the point 119 00:07:09,850 --> 00:07:12,880 Luke smith: when they weren't able to use things like telephones and 120 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:17,790 Luke smith: things like that. They also then developed visual disturbances and 121 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:22,580 Luke smith: ultimately Cheema lost his ability to see quite rapidly. That 122 00:07:22,580 --> 00:07:26,300 Luke smith: led on to muscle weakness, into changes in sensation in 123 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:30,420 Luke smith: the limbs. But the most significant from a medical point 124 00:07:30,420 --> 00:07:33,080 Luke smith: of view effect of the poison, was what it was doing 125 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,160 Luke smith: to the poisoned patient's hearts. We can see that they 126 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,330 Luke smith: develop multiple arrhythmias of the heart. The electrical activity of 127 00:07:40,330 --> 00:07:43,410 Luke smith: the heart was massively disturbed such to the point where 128 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:46,319 Luke smith: particularly in Cheema, it was unable to sustain the mechanical 129 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,420 Luke smith: ability of the heart to pump blood around the body. 130 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,190 Luke smith: This happened very rapidly. We're talking about between 60 to 131 00:07:53,190 --> 00:07:57,940 Luke smith: 120 minutes after poisoning. The severe symptoms of poisoning occurred. 132 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,540 Luke smith: Aconite poisoning in particular is interesting because it has an 133 00:08:03,540 --> 00:08:07,340 Luke smith: unusual mechanism of poisoning at the cellular level. It's relatively 134 00:08:07,340 --> 00:08:11,950 Luke smith: unique. Other plant poisons, which have similar effects work in 135 00:08:11,950 --> 00:08:14,819 Luke smith: different ways. Things like mandrake and hemlock work in slightly 136 00:08:14,820 --> 00:08:18,050 Luke smith: different ways. They tend to block electrical signals, whereas Aconite 137 00:08:18,050 --> 00:08:21,389 Luke smith: tends to increase them. And that's an unusual mechanism of 138 00:08:21,390 --> 00:08:25,800 Luke smith: action. And it's also arguably harder to treat. It also 139 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:30,309 Luke smith: tends to have similar effect to nerve agent poisoning as 140 00:08:30,310 --> 00:08:32,250 Luke smith: well. A lot of the symptoms you see are similar 141 00:08:32,250 --> 00:08:34,410 Luke smith: to those that you would see in nerve agent poisoning. 142 00:08:34,670 --> 00:08:37,720 Luke smith: And indeed, some of the chemicals in the Aconite plant 143 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,239 Luke smith: actually do work in a similar way to nerve agent 144 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,650 Luke smith: poisoning. They block an enzyme called acetylcholinesterase. Which ultimately leads 145 00:08:44,650 --> 00:08:47,090 Luke smith: to the same symptoms that you would get in nerve 146 00:08:47,090 --> 00:08:50,829 Luke smith: agent poisoning. It's also an incredibly rare poison. Which makes 147 00:08:50,829 --> 00:08:53,410 Luke smith: it interesting by very into its nature. 148 00:08:56,900 --> 00:09:00,760 James Wong: Few people have heard of forensic botany. A discipline that can stretch 149 00:09:01,350 --> 00:09:04,880 James Wong: from the analysis of clues left in traces of ancient 150 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,760 James Wong: pine grains, to the information coded in tree rings. Whether 151 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,500 James Wong: it's a detailed understanding of the makeup of aquatic environments, 152 00:09:13,730 --> 00:09:17,229 James Wong: to the chemical composition of soil, to the hidden rules 153 00:09:17,230 --> 00:09:20,839 James Wong: of how ecosystems work. Knowing what to look for is 154 00:09:20,839 --> 00:09:25,420 James Wong: half the challenge in helping investigators solve mysteries. It is 155 00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:28,770 James Wong: here onsite at Kew, that scientists are able to help 156 00:09:28,770 --> 00:09:34,320 James Wong: investigators solve their mysteries. I met professor Monique Simmonds, [ OBE to 00:09:33] 157 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:35,599 James Wong: to find out more 158 00:09:36,069 --> 00:09:40,270 Monique Simmonds: I'm Monique Simmonds. And I am Deputy Director of Science 159 00:09:40,270 --> 00:09:42,240 Monique Simmonds: at the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew. 160 00:09:42,939 --> 00:09:47,429 James Wong: Believe it or not, the tiniest samples can offer vital clues and 161 00:09:47,429 --> 00:09:51,760 James Wong: evidence in a number of situations. Monique explained how plants 162 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,679 James Wong: can leave their trace, even when a perpetrator doesn't. 163 00:09:56,530 --> 00:09:59,199 Monique Simmonds: Plants can be used in so many ways. They can 164 00:09:59,199 --> 00:10:03,819 Monique Simmonds: be used to identify a scene by what could be 165 00:10:03,819 --> 00:10:07,939 Monique Simmonds: on say, a pullover, the victim's clothes, their shoes, in 166 00:10:07,939 --> 00:10:11,420 Monique Simmonds: the grooves of the shoes, the seeds, the particles. They 167 00:10:11,420 --> 00:10:15,770 Monique Simmonds: can often identify where a crime took place. And then 168 00:10:15,770 --> 00:10:19,319 Monique Simmonds: you've got how it's possibly being used if it's a 169 00:10:19,319 --> 00:10:26,040 Monique Simmonds: plant toxin. So, different aspects of botany can assist with 170 00:10:26,530 --> 00:10:30,190 Monique Simmonds: where plant took place. And possibly if a plant was 171 00:10:30,209 --> 00:10:36,199 Monique Simmonds: used. Which plants and therefore, where it could have come 172 00:10:36,199 --> 00:10:39,829 Monique Simmonds: from. So you can use it in different ways. But 173 00:10:39,829 --> 00:10:43,819 Monique Simmonds: you need to have that basic botanical knowledge. Depending on 174 00:10:43,819 --> 00:10:47,329 Monique Simmonds: the role that the plant plays, you'll need to have 175 00:10:47,620 --> 00:10:52,240 Monique Simmonds: different aspects of plant science coming into it. So, pollen 176 00:10:52,309 --> 00:10:56,600 Monique Simmonds: or even the hairs on the back of a leaf 177 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,750 Monique Simmonds: of a plant that can cling to your clothing can 178 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:04,220 Monique Simmonds: be preserved for many years. 179 00:11:04,819 --> 00:11:08,079 James Wong: Plants can't run away or hide from threats. So they've 180 00:11:08,079 --> 00:11:11,740 James Wong: had to evolve a different evolutionary strategy. In the form 181 00:11:11,740 --> 00:11:15,240 James Wong: of toxic compounds that can act as a defense mechanism. 182 00:11:15,809 --> 00:11:18,660 James Wong: Monique and her colleagues were brought in to help identify 183 00:11:18,660 --> 00:11:23,610 James Wong: the mysterious poison when events were still unfolding. Police suspected 184 00:11:23,610 --> 00:11:26,559 James Wong: murder, but the evidence Kew could provide would help them 185 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:27,459 James Wong: find the answers. 186 00:11:28,780 --> 00:11:31,569 Monique Simmonds: Initially when they got the emergency telephone. Then when they 187 00:11:31,569 --> 00:11:36,420 Monique Simmonds: got the two patients into hospital. There were some common 188 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:43,279 Monique Simmonds: characteristics. And that was blurred vision, numbness, a very shallow 189 00:11:43,329 --> 00:11:49,609 Monique Simmonds: heartbeat. And that indicated some form of toxicity. So they 190 00:11:49,610 --> 00:11:53,069 Monique Simmonds: rule out the usual things that could be associated like 191 00:11:53,069 --> 00:11:56,890 Monique Simmonds: arsenic, et cetera. The patients didn't have some of those 192 00:11:56,890 --> 00:12:01,069 Monique Simmonds: characteristics like diarrhea and other things. So it looked like 193 00:12:01,069 --> 00:12:04,780 Monique Simmonds: it was having an effect on the nervous system and 194 00:12:04,780 --> 00:12:11,140 Monique Simmonds: that leads you to possibly plant based poisons. And some 195 00:12:11,140 --> 00:12:14,579 Monique Simmonds: of these that are known to affect the nervous system 196 00:12:14,579 --> 00:12:19,319 Monique Simmonds: can be alkaloids, a group of chemicals from plants. That 197 00:12:19,319 --> 00:12:23,880 Monique Simmonds: are known to cause effects on the nervous system. But, at 198 00:12:24,610 --> 00:12:29,270 Monique Simmonds: that stage, they couldn't detect them. Because we'd already done 199 00:12:29,329 --> 00:12:34,010 Monique Simmonds: work for the National Poisonous Unit. Some of those involved, 200 00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:36,749 Monique Simmonds: knew about some of the work that we've been doing 201 00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:37,269 Monique Simmonds: at Kew. 202 00:12:37,709 --> 00:12:40,439 James Wong: At this stage information was strictly on a need to 203 00:12:40,439 --> 00:12:44,010 James Wong: know basis. The symptoms had led scientists to look at 204 00:12:44,150 --> 00:12:48,149 James Wong: aconitum, which you might know as monkshood or Wolf's bane. 205 00:12:50,010 --> 00:12:53,640 Monique Simmonds: We were asked to see if we could assist with 206 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,589 Monique Simmonds: a toxicity. So we hadn't got a lot of background 207 00:12:56,589 --> 00:13:01,839 Monique Simmonds: information other than the fact that the people involved in 208 00:13:01,839 --> 00:13:06,790 Monique Simmonds: the case thought that toxicity could be associated with alkaloids 209 00:13:07,270 --> 00:13:11,599 Monique Simmonds: that come from aconitum species. But their test should show 210 00:13:11,599 --> 00:13:15,990 Monique Simmonds: that that wasn't the case. We were not told anything 211 00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:21,390 Monique Simmonds: about the victims or how this had happened. We were 212 00:13:21,429 --> 00:13:26,199 Monique Simmonds: just asked if we could identify these because they're associated 213 00:13:26,199 --> 00:13:31,119 Monique Simmonds: with a potential murder case. Then you get more details 214 00:13:32,110 --> 00:13:35,209 Monique Simmonds: as you guided through. So, sometimes they don't want to 215 00:13:35,209 --> 00:13:40,469 Monique Simmonds: totally lead you. We're usually not told everything. Because they 216 00:13:40,469 --> 00:13:45,219 Monique Simmonds: want to have some form of independence. So, it's gradually 217 00:13:45,219 --> 00:13:46,210 Monique Simmonds: revealed to us. 218 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,170 James Wong: In any poisoning case, it's a race against time to 219 00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:54,670 James Wong: identify the chemical toxin that caused the symptoms. 220 00:13:56,420 --> 00:13:59,020 Monique Simmonds: If you can have a knowledge about what the plant 221 00:13:59,020 --> 00:14:04,469 Monique Simmonds: is and the toxin associated with that adverse response. Then 222 00:14:04,469 --> 00:14:10,319 Monique Simmonds: that's where the medical profession can be more accurate in 223 00:14:10,319 --> 00:14:13,900 Monique Simmonds: the form of antidote that there will use because many 224 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:18,380 Monique Simmonds: of those antidotes are pretty strong in themselves. And sometimes 225 00:14:18,380 --> 00:14:21,590 Monique Simmonds: it can be very dangerous to use the wrong material. 226 00:14:21,930 --> 00:14:24,440 Monique Simmonds: You can cause more problems. But if you can have 227 00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:28,990 Monique Simmonds: it really directed by an accurate identification of what the 228 00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:33,140 Monique Simmonds: toxins are that can assist greatly. The ability of having a 229 00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:36,210 Monique Simmonds: real professional in, member of my team, or it's with 230 00:14:36,210 --> 00:14:40,120 Monique Simmonds: Jeff Kite. To be able to get that really accurate 231 00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:44,359 Monique Simmonds: analysis done at each stage is really a key to 232 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,860 Monique Simmonds: solve this issue. So it's like having a unique botanical 233 00:14:48,860 --> 00:14:52,970 Monique Simmonds: fingerprint of that particular sample that could be followed. 234 00:14:53,810 --> 00:14:56,870 James Wong: Monique explained how samples were released to Kew for testing 235 00:14:57,090 --> 00:14:59,640 James Wong: as the investigation and the questions evolve. 236 00:15:01,570 --> 00:15:05,700 Monique Simmonds: So was it aconitine or is it a related species? 237 00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:09,880 Monique Simmonds: So at that stage, we didn't know all the details. That 238 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:15,270 Monique Simmonds: only became clearer later on. They said they be able to send 239 00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:20,940 Monique Simmonds: us some samples of the blood or samples from the digestive 240 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:25,990 Monique Simmonds: track of one of the victims. And then the Curry. Could 241 00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:28,850 Monique Simmonds: we look at the Curry? And then they said that 242 00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:33,249 Monique Simmonds: they had got some leaf powder from a bag that 243 00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:37,759 Monique Simmonds: had been found in Mrs. Singh's Pocket. And we said, " 244 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,470 Monique Simmonds: Well, we'll start off on that one. That would be 245 00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:41,760 Monique Simmonds: the easiest thing. If you think there is a link." 246 00:15:42,030 --> 00:15:45,200 James Wong: Thanks for listening to Unearthed. I'll be back again in 247 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,729 James Wong: just a minute. But first here's a message from our 248 00:15:47,729 --> 00:15:48,950 James Wong: supporter, Kim Cattrall. 249 00:15:51,380 --> 00:15:55,779 Kim Cattrall: As a charity, the Royal Protonic Gardens, Kew is facing 250 00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:59,910 Kim Cattrall: a severe funding crisis, right now. The impact of Corona 251 00:15:59,910 --> 00:16:05,260 Kim Cattrall: virus has created a financial shortfall of 15,000, 000 pounds. This 252 00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:08,440 Kim Cattrall: money is vital for the upkeep of these beautiful Botanic 253 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:14,450 Kim Cattrall: Gardens. And crucial to continuing its global conservation work. Plants 254 00:16:14,450 --> 00:16:17,540 Kim Cattrall: and fungi hold many of the answers to the world's 255 00:16:17,540 --> 00:16:23,070 Kim Cattrall: biggest challenges such as climate change, food security and biodiversity 256 00:16:23,070 --> 00:16:26,850 Kim Cattrall: loss. And Kew needs to play a role in furthering 257 00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:31,840 Kim Cattrall: the science and identifying desperately needed solutions. If there's one 258 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,249 Kim Cattrall: positive thing that could come out of this pandemic. It 259 00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:38,109 Kim Cattrall: will be to encourage each and every one of us 260 00:16:38,109 --> 00:16:41,779 Kim Cattrall: to look a fresh and with urgency at these global 261 00:16:41,780 --> 00:16:46,609 Kim Cattrall: challenges. If you are enjoying this podcast and feel inspired 262 00:16:46,609 --> 00:16:49,930 Kim Cattrall: by the work that Kew does. Please go to Kew. 263 00:16:49,930 --> 00:16:54,239 Kim Cattrall: org to donate today. To help not only protect Kew, 264 00:16:54,810 --> 00:16:57,979 Kim Cattrall: but also preserve the future of our planet. 265 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,619 James Wong: Because we understand the processes behind plants. It's possible for 266 00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:05,969 James Wong: the team at Kew to work with a wide range 267 00:17:05,970 --> 00:17:07,850 James Wong: of samples in forensic cases. 268 00:17:08,139 --> 00:17:10,810 Monique Simmonds: Yes, we have an idea because of work that's been 269 00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:13,239 Monique Simmonds: done on the, by synthetic processes of these plants. And 270 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,540 Monique Simmonds: sometimes have therefore that they can be broken down. Now, 271 00:17:16,540 --> 00:17:19,469 Monique Simmonds: if we get something from the gut. It may be that it 272 00:17:19,470 --> 00:17:24,320 Monique Simmonds: hasn't been totally digested. So, sometimes it's easier to be 273 00:17:24,330 --> 00:17:28,280 Monique Simmonds: able to identify a plant matter in the gut. It 274 00:17:28,350 --> 00:17:31,050 Monique Simmonds: will depend on what part of the gut. In some 275 00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:33,960 Monique Simmonds: cases we will get the blood samples. If that is 276 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,359 Monique Simmonds: the case, then we need to know what are the 277 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:42,919 Monique Simmonds: breakdown components associated with the particular plant metabolites. In this 278 00:17:42,919 --> 00:17:45,450 Monique Simmonds: case, we didn't need to go as far as that. 279 00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:48,030 Monique Simmonds: Because we could link what had been found in the 280 00:17:48,030 --> 00:17:51,139 Monique Simmonds: pocket. What had been found in the Curry. What had been 281 00:17:51,139 --> 00:17:54,260 Monique Simmonds: found in the samples that were found in the fridge. 282 00:17:54,850 --> 00:18:00,010 Monique Simmonds: And then in the stomach contents. If had it been later 283 00:18:00,010 --> 00:18:03,210 Monique Simmonds: on, we might not have been able to do it. 284 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,290 Monique Simmonds: But unfortunately, it was a very short time before the 285 00:18:06,330 --> 00:18:08,500 Monique Simmonds: victim died in this particular case. 286 00:18:09,790 --> 00:18:11,109 James Wong: So what did they find? 287 00:18:11,540 --> 00:18:14,740 Monique Simmonds: Some people wouldn't realize at Kew, that we'd have this 288 00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:18,770 Monique Simmonds: very sophisticated equipment that allows us to do the chemical 289 00:18:18,770 --> 00:18:23,040 Monique Simmonds: work. And that's done by a method called liquid chromatography- 290 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:28,070 Monique Simmonds: mass spectrometry. That allows us to have this fingerprint of 291 00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:33,379 Monique Simmonds: the chemicals. We could see that there were 19 alkaloids 292 00:18:33,429 --> 00:18:37,100 Monique Simmonds: in the sample. Now that's quite complex. But one of 293 00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:42,909 Monique Simmonds: them was in high amounts. And that was [ pseudo I-carnitine 00:18: 48]. 294 00:18:46,159 --> 00:18:51,429 James Wong: Pseudo I- carnitine, an extremely toxic alkaloid chemical. Is found 295 00:18:51,429 --> 00:18:54,169 James Wong: within the roots of a plant known as Indian monkshood 296 00:18:54,850 --> 00:19:01,879 James Wong: or aconitum ferox. This discovery was absolutely key in understanding what 297 00:19:01,879 --> 00:19:05,929 James Wong: had happened. It hadn't shown up in previous tests simply 298 00:19:05,929 --> 00:19:08,189 James Wong: because the scientists didn't know to look for it. 299 00:19:10,619 --> 00:19:16,300 Monique Simmonds: Now, that is something that the previous people hadn't spotted. Now, why 300 00:19:16,649 --> 00:19:20,149 Monique Simmonds: we had it on our database. Is the fact that 301 00:19:20,149 --> 00:19:25,729 Monique Simmonds: we had previously dealt with some toxicity problems associated with 302 00:19:25,869 --> 00:19:31,859 Monique Simmonds: this plant material. And this plant material we thought, it 303 00:19:31,859 --> 00:19:36,810 Monique Simmonds: actually doesn't come from a British plant. It's a possibility 304 00:19:37,109 --> 00:19:42,770 Monique Simmonds: it comes from a Indian plant and that we were 305 00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:46,490 Monique Simmonds: able to put the pieces of the jigsaw together. So, 306 00:19:46,490 --> 00:19:51,320 Monique Simmonds: once we got the chemical fingerprints. We could then go 307 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,159 Monique Simmonds: back from the material that been found in the pocket 308 00:19:56,679 --> 00:20:00,869 Monique Simmonds: to look at the Curry. And we could see that 309 00:20:00,869 --> 00:20:04,779 Monique Simmonds: the Curry had a similar type of profile. And then 310 00:20:04,780 --> 00:20:08,489 Monique Simmonds: we could link that to the victim. You need to 311 00:20:08,490 --> 00:20:11,850 Monique Simmonds: know what to look for. And then the methodology that 312 00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:16,249 Monique Simmonds: would enable you to detect it. Because in some cases, 313 00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:21,709 Monique Simmonds: there aren't commercial libraries that have all the ingredients saying 314 00:20:21,710 --> 00:20:24,209 Monique Simmonds: that could be potential toxics. You have to build those 315 00:20:24,379 --> 00:20:27,129 Monique Simmonds: libraries up. Which is one of the things that Kew 316 00:20:27,129 --> 00:20:29,749 Monique Simmonds: has been doing. And of course, the other thing that 317 00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:34,100 Monique Simmonds: we have at Kew. Is knowledge about the uses of 318 00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:37,320 Monique Simmonds: plants. Now, some of those could be bad uses I. 319 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,750 Monique Simmonds: e; plants that are known to be toxic and possibly 320 00:20:40,970 --> 00:20:44,940 Monique Simmonds: have been known to be used in homicide. And we 321 00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:49,159 Monique Simmonds: collect that type of information. So we just knew that 322 00:20:49,310 --> 00:20:55,470 Monique Simmonds: historically, some plants have been used in India for homicide. 323 00:20:56,090 --> 00:21:00,950 Monique Simmonds: And just having that knowledge enables us to sometimes make 324 00:21:00,950 --> 00:21:05,600 Monique Simmonds: those links. Especially, when we have knowledge about the symptoms 325 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,530 Monique Simmonds: that the person has, who died. So we can put 326 00:21:08,530 --> 00:21:10,310 Monique Simmonds: the bits of the jigsaw together 327 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,200 James Wong: When it came to the Curry Killer Case. Establishing what 328 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,459 James Wong: the mysterious substance was. Was not only key in the 329 00:21:18,460 --> 00:21:22,920 James Wong: race to find lifesaving treatment, but also in seeking justice. 330 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:27,610 James Wong: That unique plant fingerprint allowed Monique to establish the species 331 00:21:27,669 --> 00:21:31,750 James Wong: and possible origin of this plant. This intern shed further 332 00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:32,889 James Wong: light on events. 333 00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:36,639 Monique Simmonds: When we thought, Oh right, this is a plant that 334 00:21:36,659 --> 00:21:39,510 Monique Simmonds: comes from India. Or let's say, that part of Asia. 335 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,440 Monique Simmonds: It's kind of Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, that kind of area. 336 00:21:44,050 --> 00:21:47,429 Monique Simmonds: Is it possible that she'd visited or it could have 337 00:21:47,429 --> 00:21:51,320 Monique Simmonds: been that she got it from a herbalist. But you're 338 00:21:51,619 --> 00:21:56,960 Monique Simmonds: thinking maybe not. Of course, that becomes important. You could 339 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,080 Monique Simmonds: show that this had been planned. 340 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:14,299 James Wong: Aconitum is a notoriously toxic genus containing over 250 species. You 341 00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:18,040 James Wong: might have heard it's common names like devil's helmet, monkshood, 342 00:22:18,109 --> 00:22:24,130 James Wong: or wolfsbane. Yep, it's that mysterious plant mythologized by [ Arvid Keats 00: 343 00:22:24,139 --> 00:22:28,149 James Wong: 22:22]. And of course your favorite Teen Werewolf novels. It 344 00:22:28,149 --> 00:22:31,949 James Wong: typically has blue purple hooded flowers. But there's quite a 345 00:22:31,950 --> 00:22:35,770 James Wong: lot of variation across the genus. The alkaloid toxin it 346 00:22:35,770 --> 00:22:41,210 James Wong: produces aconitine, is notoriously difficult to detect. In fact, the 347 00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:43,949 James Wong: last time an English court convicted anyone of using the 348 00:22:43,950 --> 00:22:50,219 James Wong: poison, was in 1882. When a doctor called George Henry Lamson used 349 00:22:50,220 --> 00:22:52,919 James Wong: it to poison his brother- in- law. It's a fast 350 00:22:52,919 --> 00:22:58,010 James Wong: acting neuro and cardiotoxic. And victims appear to have asphyxiated. 351 00:22:58,290 --> 00:23:00,540 James Wong: Monique explains a little more about the history of the 352 00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:03,810 James Wong: species we're familiar with in the UK and it's cousin 353 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:04,740 James Wong: aconitum ferox 354 00:23:06,419 --> 00:23:09,929 Monique Simmonds: Often it hasn't been used in a bad way. It's 355 00:23:09,929 --> 00:23:13,640 Monique Simmonds: known to contain poisons. The other bit of the story 356 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,700 Monique Simmonds: is the fact for a long time, in the past it had been 357 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:22,050 Monique Simmonds: used. Because it was actually very difficult to detect these 358 00:23:22,050 --> 00:23:26,379 Monique Simmonds: types of compounds. So, people have got away with using 359 00:23:26,379 --> 00:23:31,129 Monique Simmonds: some of these plants as toxins. Because the investigators hadn't 360 00:23:31,129 --> 00:23:35,929 Monique Simmonds: got the ability to detect it unless they found the 361 00:23:35,929 --> 00:23:40,469 Monique Simmonds: plant material had been used. So, this was a species 362 00:23:40,530 --> 00:23:44,719 Monique Simmonds: called ferox. That comes from India this had been used in 363 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,899 Monique Simmonds: the case. So it's not the British species that's often 364 00:23:47,899 --> 00:23:50,159 Monique Simmonds: goes under the name of Wolf bane. So it's an 365 00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:55,189 Monique Simmonds: example you could say of 19 century methods being detected 366 00:23:55,189 --> 00:24:01,179 Monique Simmonds: by 21st century techniques. We've advanced in our ability to 367 00:24:01,179 --> 00:24:06,070 Monique Simmonds: detect toxins that we would not have had in the 19th 368 00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:07,439 Monique Simmonds: and earlier 20th century. 369 00:24:08,810 --> 00:24:11,190 James Wong: I asked Monique what we knew about the modern users 370 00:24:11,490 --> 00:24:14,670 James Wong: of this species of aconitum ferox in India. 371 00:24:15,169 --> 00:24:20,540 Monique Simmonds: It is used sometimes as a medicine in low concentrations. 372 00:24:20,830 --> 00:24:23,490 Monique Simmonds: And sometimes it will be therefore used if it's a 373 00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:27,000 Monique Simmonds: trained herbalist. It will be used say, to clear the 374 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,040 Monique Simmonds: body. And sometimes it's used for anti- inflammatory conditions. But 375 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,950 Monique Simmonds: it would only be used for very short time. It's 376 00:24:37,950 --> 00:24:41,379 Monique Simmonds: sometimes also used in treatment of eye problems. But in 377 00:24:41,379 --> 00:24:46,820 Monique Simmonds: the hands of a real professional herbalist maybe okay. But 378 00:24:47,010 --> 00:24:51,730 Monique Simmonds: sometimes they don't fully know enough about the plant to 379 00:24:51,730 --> 00:24:55,109 Monique Simmonds: be aware of some of the problems associated with continual 380 00:24:55,109 --> 00:24:58,100 Monique Simmonds: use. People should think twice about using some of these 381 00:24:58,100 --> 00:25:04,270 Monique Simmonds: plants. They had tried to put evidence like this together. 382 00:25:04,429 --> 00:25:07,949 Monique Simmonds: And it doesn't always work because you only have part 383 00:25:07,949 --> 00:25:12,570 Monique Simmonds: of a story. I think in this particular case, the 384 00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:16,780 Monique Simmonds: police were able to link the fact that Mrs. Singh 385 00:25:16,780 --> 00:25:21,179 Monique Simmonds: had been over to India in a potential had got 386 00:25:21,179 --> 00:25:27,210 Monique Simmonds: some material. She was in possession of the raw material. 387 00:25:27,689 --> 00:25:31,990 Monique Simmonds: Was evidence that it was in the Curry, there's evidence 388 00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:34,959 Monique Simmonds: that that Curry was then used as part of a 389 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,899 Monique Simmonds: meal, with the two people that suffered. And the fact 390 00:25:38,899 --> 00:25:41,790 Monique Simmonds: that we could then link that with one of the 391 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,770 Monique Simmonds: victims. So, if we could put every bit of the 392 00:25:45,770 --> 00:25:50,270 Monique Simmonds: stage together. Enabled the police to have a pretty solid 393 00:25:50,740 --> 00:25:56,100 Monique Simmonds: case. And then we found out afterwards that evidently there was an attempt before. 394 00:25:56,609 --> 00:26:00,490 James Wong: The evidence gathered including Kew's vital findings. Were enough to 395 00:26:00,490 --> 00:26:04,580 James Wong: convict a murderer. The judge, Paul Worsley at the Old 396 00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:07,419 James Wong: Bailey condemn Singh's actions in court. 397 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,070 Judge Paul Wesly: You are not just a spurned lover. You did not 398 00:26:11,070 --> 00:26:15,550 Judge Paul Wesly: simply explode in anger at your rejection. You set about 399 00:26:15,649 --> 00:26:18,639 Judge Paul Wesly: a cold and calculating revenge. 400 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,820 James Wong: For the first time in decades. An Aconitum murderer was 401 00:26:22,820 --> 00:26:27,679 James Wong: behind bars. This calculated murder didn't only have an impact 402 00:26:27,710 --> 00:26:31,859 James Wong: on the lives of Cheema's family and fiance. The investigation 403 00:26:31,859 --> 00:26:36,179 James Wong: broke new ground for how Kew collaborates with authorities. I 404 00:26:36,179 --> 00:26:39,550 James Wong: asked Monique how the pace of the investigation has caused 405 00:26:39,550 --> 00:26:42,280 James Wong: her and others to reflect on how such cases are 406 00:26:42,379 --> 00:26:46,580 James Wong: handled moving forwards. Perhaps a new methodology might even be 407 00:26:46,580 --> 00:26:48,810 James Wong: useful in other forensic processes. 408 00:26:48,810 --> 00:26:52,950 Monique Simmonds: We're hoping to increase the amount of knowledge about DNA 409 00:26:53,260 --> 00:26:56,769 Monique Simmonds: that would be able to be used. We're also very 410 00:26:56,770 --> 00:27:02,820 Monique Simmonds: keen on crime associated with the trade in endangered species. 411 00:27:03,449 --> 00:27:07,629 Monique Simmonds: And that will be recognizing timber that is from endangered 412 00:27:07,629 --> 00:27:12,510 Monique Simmonds: plants, to make sure that only appropriate timber gets used 413 00:27:12,510 --> 00:27:14,609 Monique Simmonds: in different forms of timber trade. 414 00:27:15,580 --> 00:27:21,109 Luke smith: Kew is an invaluable resource in investigating unknown poisons. Because 415 00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:24,619 Luke smith: when you exhaust your list of common poisons. You have 416 00:27:24,619 --> 00:27:28,859 Luke smith: to start looking at the rarer things. Often plant- based 417 00:27:28,859 --> 00:27:31,820 Luke smith: poisoning does tend to be the second or third line 418 00:27:32,109 --> 00:27:35,080 Luke smith: chemical, which people fall back on when they're either poisoning 419 00:27:35,139 --> 00:27:38,010 Luke smith: themselves or poisoning others. And we end up having to 420 00:27:38,220 --> 00:27:42,720 Luke smith: look for rarer poisons, which are known to have significant 421 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,810 Luke smith: effects. And the plant world generally tends to provide those 422 00:27:45,810 --> 00:27:49,720 Luke smith: chemicals quite frequently. So, Kew is an invaluable resource in 423 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,580 Luke smith: testing samples and being able to compare chemicals that we 424 00:27:53,580 --> 00:27:56,270 Luke smith: identify at post- mortem or in blood samples in the 425 00:27:56,270 --> 00:28:00,210 Luke smith: living patient with chemicals that they have isolated from plants. 426 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,469 Luke smith: They're also an invaluable resource, when we are identifying a 427 00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:08,279 Luke smith: poisoning or trying to exclude a poisoning in patients in 428 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,900 Luke smith: whom we know that they've actually ingested a plant itself. 429 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,419 Luke smith: So we can actually compare what we have to, what 430 00:28:14,419 --> 00:28:16,629 Luke smith: they have on their records. To identify whether it truly 431 00:28:16,629 --> 00:28:18,859 Luke smith: is a poison or not. An example of that would 432 00:28:18,859 --> 00:28:22,609 Luke smith: be hemlock, which is poisonous in the UK and cow 433 00:28:22,609 --> 00:28:26,269 Luke smith: parsley, which has not look very similar. So, it's useful 434 00:28:26,270 --> 00:28:29,090 Luke smith: that they can identify the two different species and be able 435 00:28:29,090 --> 00:28:31,709 Luke smith: to tell us whether what has been ingested is actually 436 00:28:31,709 --> 00:28:33,050 Luke smith: toxic or not. 437 00:28:33,209 --> 00:28:36,989 James Wong: Next time on Unearthed from Royal Botanic gardens. 438 00:28:38,380 --> 00:28:41,180 Speaker 8: 80% of people in Papua New Guinea live in rural 439 00:28:41,180 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 8: areas. And when we say rural, we don't really mean 440 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,090 Speaker 8: people driving around in land rovers in Devin. We mean 441 00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:51,090 Speaker 8: people living right out in really hard to access areas. 442 00:28:51,260 --> 00:28:53,790 James Wong: We'll find out how plants from around the world have 443 00:28:53,790 --> 00:28:59,840 James Wong: been used locally exported and exploited as medicines. By harnessing 444 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,920 James Wong: the properties of plants all the way from forest to 445 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:09,480 James Wong: pharmacy. Social history has been changed. Ecosystems, reshaped and communities 446 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,540 James Wong: transformed around the world. 447 00:29:12,170 --> 00:29:20,001 Speaker 9: Some Indigenous tribes in Northern Ecuador, they use species of (inaudible) 448 00:29:20,001 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 9: as a contraceptive. 449 00:29:22,540 --> 00:29:24,840 James Wong: Make sure you don't miss it by subscribing on your 450 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,170 James Wong: Podcast App now. You can share this episode with the # 451 00:29:28,170 --> 00:29:34,729 James Wong: KewUnearthed and follow @ Kewgardens on social media. I'm James Wong. 452 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:35,910 James Wong: Thanks for listening.