Iona Bain: Hi, I am Iona Bain and welcome to A Little
Iona Bain: Bit Richer, brought to you by L& G. Now there
Iona Bain: can be pressure to get ahead in your career to earn
Iona Bain: more money and push for promotions. We can see competition
Iona Bain: from all angles and it can be hard to build
Iona Bain: the confidence to succeed, but we might be thinking too
Iona Bain: linear. So here today to talk us through why we
Iona Bain: need to reconsider our career opportunities is Helen Tupper. Helen
Iona Bain: and her co- founder Sarah Ellis started the award- winning
Iona Bain: company, Amazing If. They work with companies like Microsoft, Levi's,
Iona Bain: BBC, Danone, and Visa to support people with the skills
Iona Bain: to succeed in a squiggly career. Together, they're the authors
Iona Bain: of two Sunday Times bestsellers, The Squiggly Coach, and You
Iona Bain: Coach You. And their TEDx Talk, The Best Career Path
Iona Bain: Isn't Always a Straight Line has been watched by almost
Iona Bain: 2 million people. Welcome, Helen.
Helen Tupper: Thank you so much.
Iona Bain: My generation has often been told that if we work
Iona Bain: hard, then we can achieve success by climbing that career
Iona Bain: ladder. Is that true? And if not, why not?
Helen Tupper: There's a few things to unpack there. So work hard,
Helen Tupper: achieve success. I think what we might need to challenge
Helen Tupper: is what success means. So what the career ladder has
Helen Tupper: presented is that success equals seniority. And the promise is
Helen Tupper: if you show up, you work hard, you'll go up
Helen Tupper: this mythical ladder and you'll be happy because success is
Helen Tupper: being senior and that's possible for everybody. And there are
Helen Tupper: two really big challenges with that assumption. So the first
Helen Tupper: is that everybody is motivated by becoming more senior, and
Helen Tupper: the second is that promotions are possible for everybody just
Helen Tupper: as a result of working hard. And the reality is
Helen Tupper: that people are motivated by different things. Some people want
Helen Tupper: to stay in the job that they're in and grow
Helen Tupper: in that job and feel a sense of achievement and
Helen Tupper: connection to the work that they already do. Some people
Helen Tupper: want to experiment and learn by developing in different directions,
Helen Tupper: and some people do want to become more senior, but
Helen Tupper: what we have created is a construct where that freedom
Helen Tupper: isn't really allowed. And so people feel like they're failing
Helen Tupper: if they want to stay where they are or they
Helen Tupper: feel like they're doing the development wrong if they want
Helen Tupper: to take a sideways move. And so we need to
Helen Tupper: redefine what career success looks like for people and make
Helen Tupper: different answers okay. And also presenting this idea of the
Helen Tupper: career ladder where promotions are possible for everybody also doesn't
Helen Tupper: reflect the reality. They just are not that many promotions for
Helen Tupper: people and so it's a bit of a false promise.
Iona Bain: And so does this situation create that feeling within a
Iona Bain: lot of people that they're not good enough? How important
Iona Bain: is confidence in all this?
Helen Tupper: Well, there are many moments that matter in careers, and
Helen Tupper: one of them are the conversations we have with people
Helen Tupper: about our development. So if you are my manager and
Helen Tupper: you are asking me, " Helen, where do you see yourself
Helen Tupper: in the next five years?" And I think, " Well, the
Helen Tupper: only acceptable answer is to become more senior."
Iona Bain: It always feels like a trick question, doesn't it?
Helen Tupper: It's a really ladderlike question and it creates quite a lot of pressure on
Helen Tupper: somebody to come up with the right answer. And I
Helen Tupper: think that is the moment where people's confidence gremlins grow.
Helen Tupper: So they might think, "Well, I don't really know what I
Helen Tupper: really want to do, but I feel like I have
Helen Tupper: to say something so that you think that I care
Helen Tupper: about my career and I'm being ambitious." Rather than a
Helen Tupper: confident conversation, which might sound like, " Actually there are quite
Helen Tupper: a few different opportunities I'm interested in. What's most important
Helen Tupper: to me is..." I'd love to talk to you about
Helen Tupper: where those learning opportunities might be. And these open curious
Helen Tupper: conversations unlock lots more opportunity, but they do require confidence
Helen Tupper: from the individual and slightly different questions in career conversations.
Helen Tupper: It works best when somebody's got self- awareness and confidence
Helen Tupper: in their career, but the conversations that they're having with
Helen Tupper: their managers and their mentors and people in positions of
Helen Tupper: influence are not ladderlike.
Iona Bain: So what are the things that maybe we should be
Iona Bain: thinking about a little bit more when we're having those conversations?
Helen Tupper: There are some what we call squiggly swaps. So there
Helen Tupper: are ladderlike words that creep into conversations which will limit
Helen Tupper: people's development. So for example, a conversation centered on my
Helen Tupper: job title. Something that's much more squiggly is to talk
Helen Tupper: about talents. So where do I get my energy? What
Helen Tupper: do I want to be known for? How can I
Helen Tupper: use that more much bigger, better conversation? We talk about
Helen Tupper: talents. Talents take people a lot further than job titles
Helen Tupper: do. Next one would be about sort of levels. So
Helen Tupper: ladderlike conversations often about levels and grades, squiggly conversations center
Helen Tupper: much more on learning. What do you want to learn?
Helen Tupper: They center much more on growth. What does growth look
Helen Tupper: like for you over the next 12 months? You don't
Helen Tupper: have to have all the answers, but I don't want people
Helen Tupper: to have the answers because I want them to be
Helen Tupper: curious and open. Having that awareness about yourself and your
Helen Tupper: career means that you are not predetermining the conversation, which I think
Helen Tupper: when people go, " I want to get promoted." The conversation's
Helen Tupper: predetermined. And if that promotion isn't possible, the conversation doesn't go
Helen Tupper: much further.
Iona Bain: There is a big challenge to this though, which is
Iona Bain: that titles and levels and grades matter to a lot
Iona Bain: of people because they bring more pay. And that is
Iona Bain: incredibly important, especially right now where people feel that their
Iona Bain: incomes really need to rise. So what would your response
Iona Bain: to that be? How do we get people to think
Iona Bain: about getting a good income but also learning more?
Helen Tupper: So there's sort of a short- term, long- term payoff
Helen Tupper: thing going on here. So in the short term, I
Helen Tupper: might want a job that pays me more. So in the
Helen Tupper: short term, I think we just have to be a
Helen Tupper: bit careful of the assumption that the only way I'm
Helen Tupper: going to get paid more is to get promoted. So often
Helen Tupper: there is movement within a grade or a level. Sometimes
Helen Tupper: a horizontal move into another function can also unlock pay.
Helen Tupper: It doesn't always have to be promotion. So I would
Helen Tupper: explore that, I would get curious. The long term is
Helen Tupper: that it is likely that learning will unlock more opportunities for
Helen Tupper: your career. So you might think, " Well, how does learning
Helen Tupper: a new skill right now help me get paid more
Helen Tupper: next week?" It might not to be honest, but what
Helen Tupper: it will help you with is next year, the next
Helen Tupper: couple of years, you will have more roles that are
Helen Tupper: available to you. And the more choice you have, the
Helen Tupper: more control you have and the more you can push
Helen Tupper: for the pay that's important. So I do think you've
Helen Tupper: got to balance short- term conversations about pay progression and long-
Helen Tupper: term learning that will create dividends for your development in
Helen Tupper: other ways, 2, 3, 4 years hence.
Iona Bain: Yes. It sounds like you're talking about an environment in
Iona Bain: which people don't have to be loyal to their employer.
Iona Bain: Do we need to be thinking a bit more sideways
Iona Bain: in terms of looking at what's available elsewhere?
Helen Tupper: I want everyone to have the freedom and flexibility to
Helen Tupper: develop in the direction that's right for them. We call
Helen Tupper: it squiggle and stay. So we want individuals to have
Helen Tupper: the awareness to work out what is the right direction
Helen Tupper: for me to develop and we want organizations to provide
Helen Tupper: more than promotions to make that possible. So I think
Helen Tupper: really, whether it's inside an organization or outside an organization,
Helen Tupper: I don't want people to feel stuck. I think the
Helen Tupper: power of the employer over the employee has changed. I
Helen Tupper: think people do have more choices now, but that only
Helen Tupper: comes when they take control. You have to invest in
Helen Tupper: your learning. It's what makes you valuable, it what makes you
Helen Tupper: remain relevant and resilient in your career. I think you
Helen Tupper: also just have to have that awareness and confidence in
Helen Tupper: talking about your career, in talking about your skills. That
Helen Tupper: is what gives you that choice and that control.
Iona Bain: So who can we look to for support in developing
Iona Bain: ourselves in our careers?
Helen Tupper: So in ladderlike careers, we often look to our manager
Helen Tupper: as the guru of good advice, the gateway for our
Helen Tupper: growth. And what happens if you don't have a great
Helen Tupper: manager, suddenly development are very dependent on them and you're limited
Helen Tupper: as a result. So what we want to create is a
Helen Tupper: community around an individual's career. And this doesn't mean you
Helen Tupper: have to know everybody in the company. It doesn't mean
Helen Tupper: you need 10,000 connections on LinkedIn. I think there's a principle that's
Helen Tupper: really important when you're building a community and then practically
Helen Tupper: there's four people that matter most. So the principle is
Helen Tupper: this is not just about people knowing people. So it's
Helen Tupper: not about casual connections, but strong relationships are built on
Helen Tupper: help. And this matters because one, people enjoy helping people.
Helen Tupper: So if anyone's thinking, " Oh, I feel a bit awkward
Helen Tupper: about networking." Your brain quite likes helping people. It's called
Helen Tupper: the helpers high, makes us feel useful, valuable. So thinking
Helen Tupper: how can I help is a better way for me
Helen Tupper: to start building a relationship with somebody. It also results
Helen Tupper: in reciprocity. So when people feel like you've been helpful,
Helen Tupper: they want to help you in return. And that's not
Helen Tupper: always an immediate action. It could be a month or
Helen Tupper: two down the line when you get in touch with
Helen Tupper: someone, they're much more likely to respond to requests for
Helen Tupper: help, having built that reciprocity.
Iona Bain: Enlighten self- interest.
Helen Tupper: Exactly. And to be honest, it just feels good. Even if someone doesn't help
Helen Tupper: you back, does it really matter? If you've helped someone,
Helen Tupper: you feel good. I always think that is good enough. So
Helen Tupper: that's the principle. Just think how can I be helpful?
Helen Tupper: Now, there are four relationships in a career community that
Helen Tupper: make the biggest difference to someone's development. So the first
Helen Tupper: is the role of a mentor. A mentor is just
Helen Tupper: someone who has done what you want to do. They
Helen Tupper: don't have to be more senior than you, could be
Helen Tupper: a peer, anyone really. And what you benefit from with
Helen Tupper: a mentor is advice, you're borrowing their experience really. Just
Helen Tupper: start with a meeting. Now you might have a conversation,
Helen Tupper: there might be a connection and you might have a follow-
Helen Tupper: up meeting or it might evolve into something more meaningful
Helen Tupper: over time. But don't start with this needs to be
Helen Tupper: a two- year relationship with somebody because it's quite a
Helen Tupper: lot of pressure to put on someone you've not actually
Helen Tupper: spent any time with yet. The second one is peer
Helen Tupper: relationships. So if a mentor has done what you want
Helen Tupper: to do, a peer is somebody who's going through what you are
Helen Tupper: going through. There's often a lot of trust and support
Helen Tupper: in there. They are experiencing things at the same time.
Helen Tupper: So you can share learning with each other. Peers accelerate
Helen Tupper: your development. Third one is a sponsor. This is where I
Helen Tupper: often find the biggest gap in people's communities. So a
Helen Tupper: sponsor is somebody who's got access and influence over an
Helen Tupper: area you are interested in. So that could be a
Helen Tupper: project that you'd like to work on, could be a
Helen Tupper: position that you're interested in. And what they can do
Helen Tupper: if you build the right relationship with them is they
Helen Tupper: can advocate for you. And the fourth and final one
Helen Tupper: is a coach. So coaches are people who will ask
Helen Tupper: questions to unlock your thinking, but in the context of
Helen Tupper: your community, this doesn't have to be a professional coach.
Helen Tupper: I think it's easier to think who do I know
Helen Tupper: that has got a coaching approach? So two skills to
Helen Tupper: look out for here, the people who ask good questions
Helen Tupper: and also to be a good listener because coaches are
Helen Tupper: not there to give the answers, they're there to ask
Helen Tupper: the questions. You are the person doing the thinking, generating
Helen Tupper: your own answers and think it's who have I got
Helen Tupper: and who have I not? And just to keep coming
Helen Tupper: back to that question because we all have gaps. None
Helen Tupper: of them are perfect, but it just helps us to
Helen Tupper: prioritize the relationships we need to invest in. It's just
Helen Tupper: somebody who is non- judgmental, who doesn't try and switch
Helen Tupper: to their experience and go, " Oh, well when I was
Helen Tupper: in this situation..." Because that's more mental mode. The best
Helen Tupper: way that I've found people with coaching approaches have been
Helen Tupper: the people that when I worked with them, they asked
Helen Tupper: me questions that I found a bit uncomfortable. Like, " Helen, why
Helen Tupper: are you actually doing that? What's driving you?" And when
Helen Tupper: I worked with them, (inaudible) . We're just trying to
Helen Tupper: get it done. I don't want to think about this now that's too big
Helen Tupper: a question. But now I hold those people in my
Helen Tupper: mind because I know you are going to ask the
Helen Tupper: hard questions.
Iona Bain: They're like a sounding board.
Helen Tupper: They are good at holding pauses. They don't interrupt. That's what to look out for.
Iona Bain: We all need people like that in our lives.
Helen Tupper: We do.
Iona Bain: That's so valuable. So when you are thinking about making
Iona Bain: a pivot and going in this different direction, people will
Iona Bain: fear that it will go wrong. And if it goes
Iona Bain: wrong, maybe it's meant leaving a job that had a
Iona Bain: lot of security and not being as financially stable and
Iona Bain: having a more difficult time. What would your advice be
Iona Bain: to those who are scared about making that next move?
Helen Tupper: So there's this fear- based response to change and then
Helen Tupper: there is a very practical one of, "But what if I
Helen Tupper: don't enjoy it? And what if I am not good
Helen Tupper: at it? I've not done this before." So I think
Helen Tupper: there are two different things to work on here. So
Helen Tupper: the first one is caging confidence gremlins. And the second
Helen Tupper: one is trying to get some exposure and experience before
Helen Tupper: you make that move so that you mitigate the risk
Helen Tupper: of it going wrong. The confidence gremlin piece, a lot
Helen Tupper: of that is moving from limiting beliefs. Like, " What if
Helen Tupper: people don't like me in that team? If I fail,
Helen Tupper: I'm going to be a failure." To more limitless thinking.
Helen Tupper: To honest it sounds a little bit cheesy, but the
Helen Tupper: truth is that when our confidence gremlins are growing, they
Helen Tupper: tell us a really negative story that stops us taking
Helen Tupper: action. So when I say limitless beliefs, all I'm saying
Helen Tupper: is change the story. So if I do it and I
Helen Tupper: fail, at least I'm going to learn. And it is
Helen Tupper: having a statement that you can say to yourself that
Helen Tupper: gives you at least the confidence to take action. The
Helen Tupper: second bit is, " But I don't have experience. I don't
Helen Tupper: know anybody, it might not work." Here, I would say
Helen Tupper: building a bridge between where you are today and where
Helen Tupper: you want to get to is really important. And that do you know people
Helen Tupper: say, look before you leap. I think this more, the
Helen Tupper: learn before you leap. Could you shadow somebody? Could you
Helen Tupper: just get a mentor who tells you about a day
Helen Tupper: in their life? And the more data you have about
Helen Tupper: this move for your development, the better the decision you'll
Helen Tupper: make is and the more informed you'll feel.
Iona Bain: I mean a lot of young professionals who feel very
Iona Bain: disillusioned and trapped on the corporate career ladder because they
Iona Bain: feel that they need to be at the level they're
Iona Bain: at in order to afford the lifestyle, but they're not
Iona Bain: particularly fulfilled. What would your advice be to anyone who
Iona Bain: feels that they're trapped in that situation and there's nowhere
Iona Bain: to go?
Helen Tupper: It's really hard. We spend a lot of our time
Helen Tupper: at work and so to feel you're not having the
Helen Tupper: impact that you want and you're not enjoying what you're
Helen Tupper: doing, I think there are things that you can do
Helen Tupper: about it though. I always go back to it was
Helen Tupper: one of our squiggly skills, which is around values. So
Helen Tupper: forget job titles and forget the way you work, just
Helen Tupper: forget all that for a moment. Actually, you at a
Helen Tupper: very human individual level, what is it that motivates and
Helen Tupper: drives you? That's all the values are and everyone has
Helen Tupper: them and they're not things that change. They're pretty stable.
Helen Tupper: So when I do these exercises, I have four words
Helen Tupper: that always come out. So these are my values, freedom,
Helen Tupper: growth, energy, and achievement. That is what makes me me.
Helen Tupper: They'll be different to your answers, different to other people's answers.
Iona Bain: That sounds pretty similar to mine.
Helen Tupper: But do you know with values, even when you have the
Helen Tupper: same word, it can actually mean something different.
Iona Bain: Very true.
Helen Tupper: So my business partner who is very different, she has achievement.
Helen Tupper: Her definition of achievement is having one big win to
Helen Tupper: work towards. That's my idea of a nightmare. I don't
Helen Tupper: want one big win. My win is having lots of
Helen Tupper: wins to work on. So even the same word can
Helen Tupper: mean something different. But the point is when I'm feeling
Helen Tupper: a bit flat or a bit frustrated, it's often because
Helen Tupper: my values are not being fulfilled. I haven't got freedom.
Helen Tupper: I've got a micromanaging manager. And it really helps you
Helen Tupper: to think, what am I missing at the moment and
Helen Tupper: what could I do differently? And sometimes the answer is
Helen Tupper: actually not in work. So I have been in a
Helen Tupper: situation where I knew what my values were and I
Helen Tupper: was red and be greening them and there was quite
Helen Tupper: a lot of red on my freedom, growth, energy and
Helen Tupper: achievement. I want to do this, but I can't work
Helen Tupper: out in this organization at this time. How am I
Helen Tupper: supposed to get this stuff? But I was slightly stuck.
Helen Tupper: There were reasons that I was in that role that
Helen Tupper: I could not change immediately. And so what I did
Helen Tupper: was I found that fulfillment outside of work. So I
Helen Tupper: still concentrated on achieving inside of work, but these values
Helen Tupper: are not going anywhere. I'm not going to be happy in
Helen Tupper: my life if I haven't got these things somewhere. And
Helen Tupper: so I actually started a side project and these things
Helen Tupper: that I cared about, I found fulfillment somewhere else. And
Helen Tupper: then what happened over time is I worked through the
Helen Tupper: work issues. I stayed in the company that I was
Helen Tupper: in and I made some changes, but they didn't happen overnight.
Helen Tupper: But in the meantime, those things that mattered most to
Helen Tupper: me, I was still finding fulfillment. I also in the
Helen Tupper: company that I was in, tried to connect with people
Helen Tupper: outside of my role, make new relationships because that is
Helen Tupper: what unlocks opportunity.
Iona Bain: Because not all of us can have the luxury of working
Iona Bain: in jobs that give us lots and lots of fulfillment
Iona Bain: and satisfaction all of the time. Sometimes it is a job
Iona Bain: that will pay the bills and that's okay.
Helen Tupper: What is important is that you understand, we talk about
Helen Tupper: using your values as a compass for your career. Let
Helen Tupper: that be the thing that guides you in what you do.
Iona Bain: A lot of what you've talked about, it's not necessarily
Iona Bain: about getting recognition, it's about what drives you and what
Iona Bain: makes you feel satisfied. So how can we step out
Iona Bain: of that need for recognition that we all have that
Iona Bain: I also think maybe is a bit amplified by social media.
Helen Tupper: So I think when you know what your values are
Helen Tupper: and you ground yourself in your values, you're less dependent on
Helen Tupper: validation. And obviously recognition is important, but I think you
Helen Tupper: also don't need to just rely on recognition. You can't
Helen Tupper: support yourself with reflection. So what have I done well
Helen Tupper: this week? Who have I made a difference to? What
Helen Tupper: am I proud of? Those sorts of questions, we have
Helen Tupper: an exercise which we call very small successes. So at the
Helen Tupper: end of every day, particularly if you're going through a knotty
Helen Tupper: moment, this can really help. Just take two weeks at
Helen Tupper: the end of every day, force yourself to reflect on
Helen Tupper: three things that you've done well that day. The first
Helen Tupper: one you'll find, you'll be like, " I went for a
Helen Tupper: lunch break." The first one might come-
Iona Bain: Still a win.
Helen Tupper: It's still a win. That is exactly it because when
Helen Tupper: work doesn't feel great, it is very hard for you
Helen Tupper: to see your wins. The point of this is to see the
Helen Tupper: very small successes. And if you can keep this up,
Helen Tupper: three successes a day for two weeks, you will have
Helen Tupper: 42 small things that you have done well. But 42 things doesn't
Helen Tupper: seem so small. It starts to be more significant and
Helen Tupper: suddenly I'm less reliant. My manager's never going to tell
Helen Tupper: me 42 things I've done well in two weeks. That's
Helen Tupper: never going to happen. I might get one.
Iona Bain: You have to tell yourself.
Helen Tupper: That's it, you have to tell yourself and you don't
Helen Tupper: have to do this all the time. But I would say
Helen Tupper: in the hard moments, it is very helpful that you
Helen Tupper: reflect and recognize your own wins rather than relying on
Helen Tupper: other people to validate you.
Iona Bain: So this has been really, really helpful, Helen. But finally,
Iona Bain: what are your three tips to create a career that works for you?
Helen Tupper: I think number one, confidence. I think confidence can help
Helen Tupper: you to be so brave about the things that you
Helen Tupper: do with your development or it can hold you back.
Helen Tupper: And I think if you can start to be aware
Helen Tupper: of what gremlins are getting in your way and start
Helen Tupper: to change the story that they're telling yourself, it makes
Helen Tupper: a massive difference to your development. Second is community. This is
Helen Tupper: very hard to do on your own. Building a community
Helen Tupper: will help you grow beyond where you are today. And
Helen Tupper: I think the third thing is don't wait for other
Helen Tupper: people to do things for you in your development. You'll
Helen Tupper: start to get frustrated. Create opportunities for yourself. They don't
Helen Tupper: have to be massive. They could just be, " I'm creating
Helen Tupper: by sharing an idea. I'm creating by putting a meeting
Helen Tupper: in place with somebody." Just think, " How can I create
Helen Tupper: more opportunities for myself this week?" And even if it's just
Helen Tupper: one thing, it's better than the person who's waiting for
Helen Tupper: the career conversation six months from now.
Iona Bain: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Helen.
Helen Tupper: My pleasure.
Iona Bain: Helen, that was incredibly insightful and I think we're all
Iona Bain: feeling a little bit squigglier now. So thank you very
Iona Bain: much and thank you for listening. I would absolutely love
Iona Bain: it if you could follow the podcast, leave us a
Iona Bain: review, and that way you can help others get a
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Iona Bain: you soon.